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On July 30 2023 18:37 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2023 18:28 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 18:01 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 30 2023 16:51 Magic Powers wrote:
These words sound righteous on the surface, unfortunately in the context of the drone attacks in Moscow they're very misled. They aren't hitting any Nazis or their families. These are regular folk who don't want anything to do with any of this. I mean, ultimately the reason they hit random people is the same reason GPS has not been working properly ever since that funny incident with drone hitting the Russian Flag in Kremlin: it is interfered to all hell so the only navigation that can reasonably work to send them into buildings that matter now is "offline" (And i can confidently tell you it is more hassle than these drones are worth). If people getting hit should be mad at anyone that would be the genius decision of Russian Ministry of Invading to use comm blockers instead of actual air defence. P. S. And how much the people that get randomly hit in process don't want to do with any of this is really up to debate even in Moscow. Pedestrians generally enjoy getting hit by drone attacks? In what world exactly? Where in this footage is the military target? Afaik, there are many governmental offices in that district. They are a valid target, especially at night. Show nested quote +I will not stop countering KwarK's extremely misled views on terrorism against innocent people. He's talking as if these pedestrians are equally valid targets as actual Nazis. I will push back against this kind of talk 100% of the time. There is zero evidence that Ukraine was targeting innocent people and they have every incentive not to do that. We don't even know whether the drone hit its intended target as Russia is using EW to take down those drones instead of proper AA. Show nested quote +Civilians living in the same country as the genocidal psychopath who oppresses them are not valid targets of drone attacks. There's no world in which this kind of action should be trivialized or justified. The genocide is perpetrated and cheered on by those ordinary Russians. It's not Putin who's kidnapping those Ukrainian children, committing massacres, torturing people, attacking residential areas, hospitals and shelters. It's Russian soldiers who do that and Russian people who support that.
Read KwarK's comment again and tell me you agree with everything he said. Then we can discuss this further.
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On July 30 2023 01:50 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2023 01:03 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Besides useless saber rattling, what is the plan here. No way would Russia would allow any incursion to happen, and who is Wagner chest thumping for. Belarus, or themselves? WARSAW, July 29 (Reuters) - A group of a hundred soldiers from the Russian Wagner group have moved closer to the Belarusian city of Grodno near the Polish border, Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki said on Saturday.
Poland, a former Warsaw Pact member which has been a full member of the U.S.-led NATO military alliance since 1999, has been concerned about the possible spillover of war on to its territory ever since Russian invaded Ukraine in February 2022.
Earlier this month, Poland began moving more than 1,000 troops to the east of the country amid rising concerns that the presence of Wagner fighters in Belarus could lead to increased tension on its border.
"The situation is getting increasingly dangerous ... Most likely they (the Wagner personnel) will be disguised as the Belarusian border guard and help illegal migrants get to the Polish territory (and) destabilise Poland," Morawiecki said at a press conference in Gliwice, western Poland.
"They will most likely try to enter Poland pretending to be illegal migrants and this poses additional threats," Morawiecki said.
However he did not give the source of his information on the Wagner movements, and Anton Motolko, founder of the Belarusian opposition Hajun project which monitors military activity in the country, told Reuters his group had not seen any evidence of the Wagner group moving closer to Grodno.
The city has a potentially significant position given it is near the Suwalki Gap, a strategic strip of land along the Polish-Lithuanian border, which divides Belarus, Russia's ally, from the Russian enclave of Kaliningrad.
Earlier in July, Wagner chief Yevgeny Prigozhin was shown in a video welcoming his fighters to Belarus, telling them they would take no further part in the Ukraine war for now but ordering them to gather their strength for Africa - where they are involved in a number of conflicts - while they train the Belarusian army.
The following day, some Wagner fighters arrived at the training ground of the 38th airborne assault brigade outside the city of Brest, just a few miles from the Polish border.
Wagner's move to Belarus was part of a deal that ended the group's mutiny attempt in June, when they took control of a Russian military headquarters, marched on Moscow and threatened to tip Russia into civil war, President Vladimir Putin has said. Source Please don't take polish government too seriously on this. It's election season and fear is good for the ruling party.
While PiS will certainly use this for the election purposes, the fear isn't totally unfounded. Belarus/Russia certainly won't attempt some major military operation across the border, but they might want to instigate some incidents to achieve their long term goals. They have tried this before. A few months back, Belarus SOF crossed the border in a remote, deeply forested area and then returned back into Belarus before they could be intercepted. In another incident, shots were fired at Border Guard patrol car from across the border. They are also known to ferry migrants directly to the border or even across it and leave them there without documents.
Now, one can ask, what are those long-term goals they might want to achieve? Those include but are not limited to:
- staging an incident involving migrants to boost the popularity of pro Russia antimmigrant party
- staging an incident aimed to destabilize our government / erode trust in our armed forces /government
- move saboteurs across the border to spy on our military industry and depots or even perform acts of sabotage
- as above in regard to weapon transports moving aimed for Ukraine
- staging an incident aimed to increase tensions between Poles and Ukrainian refugees
- staging an incident aimed to increase tensions between Poland and EU or erode our public image on the world stage
And before anyone protests, those aren't some outlandish claims. All this has happened before. A while back, GRU operatives blew up Czech ammo depot. Since the start of the war, there were several explosions and fires in military industry depots/factories across the EU and at least some of those are thought to be acts of sabotage. Russians constantly target our public and infosphere with misinformation and false claims. Psy Ops are their daily bread. All this aimed at moving the needle of public opinion in their desired direction, to polarize and destabilize.
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On July 30 2023 18:40 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2023 18:37 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 18:28 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 18:01 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 30 2023 16:51 Magic Powers wrote:
These words sound righteous on the surface, unfortunately in the context of the drone attacks in Moscow they're very misled. They aren't hitting any Nazis or their families. These are regular folk who don't want anything to do with any of this. I mean, ultimately the reason they hit random people is the same reason GPS has not been working properly ever since that funny incident with drone hitting the Russian Flag in Kremlin: it is interfered to all hell so the only navigation that can reasonably work to send them into buildings that matter now is "offline" (And i can confidently tell you it is more hassle than these drones are worth). If people getting hit should be mad at anyone that would be the genius decision of Russian Ministry of Invading to use comm blockers instead of actual air defence. P. S. And how much the people that get randomly hit in process don't want to do with any of this is really up to debate even in Moscow. Pedestrians generally enjoy getting hit by drone attacks? In what world exactly? Where in this footage is the military target? Afaik, there are many governmental offices in that district. They are a valid target, especially at night. I will not stop countering KwarK's extremely misled views on terrorism against innocent people. He's talking as if these pedestrians are equally valid targets as actual Nazis. I will push back against this kind of talk 100% of the time. There is zero evidence that Ukraine was targeting innocent people and they have every incentive not to do that. We don't even know whether the drone hit its intended target as Russia is using EW to take down those drones instead of proper AA. Civilians living in the same country as the genocidal psychopath who oppresses them are not valid targets of drone attacks. There's no world in which this kind of action should be trivialized or justified. The genocide is perpetrated and cheered on by those ordinary Russians. It's not Putin who's kidnapping those Ukrainian children, committing massacres, torturing people, attacking residential areas, hospitals and shelters. It's Russian soldiers who do that and Russian people who support that. Read KwarK's comment again and tell me you agree with everything he said. Then we can discuss this further.
I think he's incorrect in calling them Nazis, but otherwise I fully agree. The vast majority of Russians are imperialists. They come in different flavours - Stalinist, nationalist, and anything in-between - but they all believe that Russia has a divine right to violently subjugate smaller nations.
At no point did he suggest that the civilians were the intended targets or that it would be justified.
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On July 30 2023 18:46 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2023 18:40 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 18:37 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 18:28 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 18:01 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 30 2023 16:51 Magic Powers wrote:
These words sound righteous on the surface, unfortunately in the context of the drone attacks in Moscow they're very misled. They aren't hitting any Nazis or their families. These are regular folk who don't want anything to do with any of this. I mean, ultimately the reason they hit random people is the same reason GPS has not been working properly ever since that funny incident with drone hitting the Russian Flag in Kremlin: it is interfered to all hell so the only navigation that can reasonably work to send them into buildings that matter now is "offline" (And i can confidently tell you it is more hassle than these drones are worth). If people getting hit should be mad at anyone that would be the genius decision of Russian Ministry of Invading to use comm blockers instead of actual air defence. P. S. And how much the people that get randomly hit in process don't want to do with any of this is really up to debate even in Moscow. Pedestrians generally enjoy getting hit by drone attacks? In what world exactly? Where in this footage is the military target? Afaik, there are many governmental offices in that district. They are a valid target, especially at night. I will not stop countering KwarK's extremely misled views on terrorism against innocent people. He's talking as if these pedestrians are equally valid targets as actual Nazis. I will push back against this kind of talk 100% of the time. There is zero evidence that Ukraine was targeting innocent people and they have every incentive not to do that. We don't even know whether the drone hit its intended target as Russia is using EW to take down those drones instead of proper AA. Civilians living in the same country as the genocidal psychopath who oppresses them are not valid targets of drone attacks. There's no world in which this kind of action should be trivialized or justified. The genocide is perpetrated and cheered on by those ordinary Russians. It's not Putin who's kidnapping those Ukrainian children, committing massacres, torturing people, attacking residential areas, hospitals and shelters. It's Russian soldiers who do that and Russian people who support that. Read KwarK's comment again and tell me you agree with everything he said. Then we can discuss this further. I think he's incorrect in calling them Nazis, but otherwise I fully agree. The vast majority of Russians are imperialists. They come in different flavours - Stalinist, nationalist, and anything in-between - but they all believe that Russia has a divine right to violently subjugate smaller nations. At no point did he suggest that the civilians were the intended targets or that it would be justified.
- Kwark alludes to Nazi ideology, with its goal being righteous supremacy through genocide, terror and murder, and stamping out perceived weakness (compromise and dialogue). Nazis cannot be reasoned with through non-violent means.
=> This part is entirely correct.
- KwarK notes that there may've been collateral damage.
=> I agree with him.
- KwarK states that "bombing their cities" refutes the Nazi argument, and that they're only willing to listen to such a measure.
=> This is in context of KwarK having considered collateral damage. KwarK supports cities being bombed if warmongering Nazis reside in them. He did not clarify in any capacity whatsoever that he meant specific buildings of military importance. He said "cities" and he supported them being "bombed".
This is the problem with his statement. Do you understand why I'm pushing back?
KwarK has faced criticism before for similar statements. He knows that what he's saying is highly controversial and not supported by everyone. With that in mind I cannot give him the benefit of the doubt that he may've misspoke.
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On July 30 2023 18:46 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2023 18:40 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 18:37 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 18:28 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 18:01 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 30 2023 16:51 Magic Powers wrote:
These words sound righteous on the surface, unfortunately in the context of the drone attacks in Moscow they're very misled. They aren't hitting any Nazis or their families. These are regular folk who don't want anything to do with any of this. I mean, ultimately the reason they hit random people is the same reason GPS has not been working properly ever since that funny incident with drone hitting the Russian Flag in Kremlin: it is interfered to all hell so the only navigation that can reasonably work to send them into buildings that matter now is "offline" (And i can confidently tell you it is more hassle than these drones are worth). If people getting hit should be mad at anyone that would be the genius decision of Russian Ministry of Invading to use comm blockers instead of actual air defence. P. S. And how much the people that get randomly hit in process don't want to do with any of this is really up to debate even in Moscow. Pedestrians generally enjoy getting hit by drone attacks? In what world exactly? Where in this footage is the military target? Afaik, there are many governmental offices in that district. They are a valid target, especially at night. I will not stop countering KwarK's extremely misled views on terrorism against innocent people. He's talking as if these pedestrians are equally valid targets as actual Nazis. I will push back against this kind of talk 100% of the time. There is zero evidence that Ukraine was targeting innocent people and they have every incentive not to do that. We don't even know whether the drone hit its intended target as Russia is using EW to take down those drones instead of proper AA. Civilians living in the same country as the genocidal psychopath who oppresses them are not valid targets of drone attacks. There's no world in which this kind of action should be trivialized or justified. The genocide is perpetrated and cheered on by those ordinary Russians. It's not Putin who's kidnapping those Ukrainian children, committing massacres, torturing people, attacking residential areas, hospitals and shelters. It's Russian soldiers who do that and Russian people who support that. Read KwarK's comment again and tell me you agree with everything he said. Then we can discuss this further. I think he's incorrect in calling them Nazis, but otherwise I fully agree. The vast majority of Russians are imperialists. They come in different flavours - Stalinist, nationalist, and anything in-between - but they all believe that Russia has a divine right to violently subjugate smaller nations. At no point did he suggest that the civilians were the intended targets or that it would be justified.
The last sentence together with the rest of his post pretty much turns it into "ends justify the means", which is not explicitly related to the drone attack, but I am past granting him the benefit of the doubt that he just felt like giving a completely unrelated speech. Its the kind of ideology that got us indiscriminate bombings in the past, and its something we do no longer see acceptable in the west.
It also is incredibly bad for the credibility of "our side" as in the pro ukraine side. Just concede that it is regrettable collateral damage, maybe have a discussion on if its really a ukrainian attack and not from some other party. Maybe discuss if there was a military target that justified the risk (note on that part: being part of the government in general does not make you a valid military target according to international law. There has to be a direct connection to the war. Like an attack of the defence minister would be fine, the minister of public health and safety not so much.). Maybe discuss if the attack was really ukrainian or like others in the past potentially by ukraine affiliated parties/anti putin parties that are not under direct ukrainian control.
Don't incite some weird ideological war to outright justify bombing cities. Reading KwarKs post often make me feel there is some secret TL election running that I am not aware of. They sound grand, but the contents are often vile and full of hatred once you think about them.
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On July 30 2023 19:19 Artesimo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2023 18:46 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 18:40 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 18:37 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 18:28 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 18:01 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 30 2023 16:51 Magic Powers wrote:
These words sound righteous on the surface, unfortunately in the context of the drone attacks in Moscow they're very misled. They aren't hitting any Nazis or their families. These are regular folk who don't want anything to do with any of this. I mean, ultimately the reason they hit random people is the same reason GPS has not been working properly ever since that funny incident with drone hitting the Russian Flag in Kremlin: it is interfered to all hell so the only navigation that can reasonably work to send them into buildings that matter now is "offline" (And i can confidently tell you it is more hassle than these drones are worth). If people getting hit should be mad at anyone that would be the genius decision of Russian Ministry of Invading to use comm blockers instead of actual air defence. P. S. And how much the people that get randomly hit in process don't want to do with any of this is really up to debate even in Moscow. Pedestrians generally enjoy getting hit by drone attacks? In what world exactly? Where in this footage is the military target? Afaik, there are many governmental offices in that district. They are a valid target, especially at night. I will not stop countering KwarK's extremely misled views on terrorism against innocent people. He's talking as if these pedestrians are equally valid targets as actual Nazis. I will push back against this kind of talk 100% of the time. There is zero evidence that Ukraine was targeting innocent people and they have every incentive not to do that. We don't even know whether the drone hit its intended target as Russia is using EW to take down those drones instead of proper AA. Civilians living in the same country as the genocidal psychopath who oppresses them are not valid targets of drone attacks. There's no world in which this kind of action should be trivialized or justified. The genocide is perpetrated and cheered on by those ordinary Russians. It's not Putin who's kidnapping those Ukrainian children, committing massacres, torturing people, attacking residential areas, hospitals and shelters. It's Russian soldiers who do that and Russian people who support that. Read KwarK's comment again and tell me you agree with everything he said. Then we can discuss this further. I think he's incorrect in calling them Nazis, but otherwise I fully agree. The vast majority of Russians are imperialists. They come in different flavours - Stalinist, nationalist, and anything in-between - but they all believe that Russia has a divine right to violently subjugate smaller nations. At no point did he suggest that the civilians were the intended targets or that it would be justified. The last sentence together with the rest of his post pretty much turns it into "ends justify the means", which is not explicitly related to the drone attack, but I am past granting him the benefit of the doubt that he just felt like giving a completely unrelated speech. Its the kind of ideology that got us indiscriminate bombings in the past, and its something we do no longer see acceptable in the west. It also is incredibly bad for the credibility of "our side" as in the pro ukraine side. Just concede that it is regrettable collateral damage, maybe have a discussion on if its really a ukrainian attack and not from some other party. Maybe discuss if there was a military target that justified the risk (note on that part: being part of the government in general does not make you a valid military target according to international law. There has to be a direct connection to the war. Like an attack of the defence minister would be fine, the minister of public health and safety not so much.). Maybe discuss if the attack was really ukrainian or like others in the past potentially by ukraine affiliated parties/anti putin parties that are not under direct ukrainian control. Don't incite some weird ideological war to outright justify bombing cities. Reading KwarKs post often make me feel there is some secret TL election running that I am not aware of. They sound grand, but the contents are often vile and full of hatred once you think about them.
I'm pretty sure he meant the incidents we have seen occur over the last year, and not carpet bombing Russian cities, although I could be wrong.
And what regrettable collateral damage. Afaik, there were no casualties.
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On July 30 2023 19:22 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2023 19:19 Artesimo wrote:On July 30 2023 18:46 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 18:40 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 18:37 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 18:28 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 18:01 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 30 2023 16:51 Magic Powers wrote:
These words sound righteous on the surface, unfortunately in the context of the drone attacks in Moscow they're very misled. They aren't hitting any Nazis or their families. These are regular folk who don't want anything to do with any of this. I mean, ultimately the reason they hit random people is the same reason GPS has not been working properly ever since that funny incident with drone hitting the Russian Flag in Kremlin: it is interfered to all hell so the only navigation that can reasonably work to send them into buildings that matter now is "offline" (And i can confidently tell you it is more hassle than these drones are worth). If people getting hit should be mad at anyone that would be the genius decision of Russian Ministry of Invading to use comm blockers instead of actual air defence. P. S. And how much the people that get randomly hit in process don't want to do with any of this is really up to debate even in Moscow. Pedestrians generally enjoy getting hit by drone attacks? In what world exactly? Where in this footage is the military target? Afaik, there are many governmental offices in that district. They are a valid target, especially at night. I will not stop countering KwarK's extremely misled views on terrorism against innocent people. He's talking as if these pedestrians are equally valid targets as actual Nazis. I will push back against this kind of talk 100% of the time. There is zero evidence that Ukraine was targeting innocent people and they have every incentive not to do that. We don't even know whether the drone hit its intended target as Russia is using EW to take down those drones instead of proper AA. Civilians living in the same country as the genocidal psychopath who oppresses them are not valid targets of drone attacks. There's no world in which this kind of action should be trivialized or justified. The genocide is perpetrated and cheered on by those ordinary Russians. It's not Putin who's kidnapping those Ukrainian children, committing massacres, torturing people, attacking residential areas, hospitals and shelters. It's Russian soldiers who do that and Russian people who support that. Read KwarK's comment again and tell me you agree with everything he said. Then we can discuss this further. I think he's incorrect in calling them Nazis, but otherwise I fully agree. The vast majority of Russians are imperialists. They come in different flavours - Stalinist, nationalist, and anything in-between - but they all believe that Russia has a divine right to violently subjugate smaller nations. At no point did he suggest that the civilians were the intended targets or that it would be justified. The last sentence together with the rest of his post pretty much turns it into "ends justify the means", which is not explicitly related to the drone attack, but I am past granting him the benefit of the doubt that he just felt like giving a completely unrelated speech. Its the kind of ideology that got us indiscriminate bombings in the past, and its something we do no longer see acceptable in the west. It also is incredibly bad for the credibility of "our side" as in the pro ukraine side. Just concede that it is regrettable collateral damage, maybe have a discussion on if its really a ukrainian attack and not from some other party. Maybe discuss if there was a military target that justified the risk (note on that part: being part of the government in general does not make you a valid military target according to international law. There has to be a direct connection to the war. Like an attack of the defence minister would be fine, the minister of public health and safety not so much.). Maybe discuss if the attack was really ukrainian or like others in the past potentially by ukraine affiliated parties/anti putin parties that are not under direct ukrainian control. Don't incite some weird ideological war to outright justify bombing cities. Reading KwarKs post often make me feel there is some secret TL election running that I am not aware of. They sound grand, but the contents are often vile and full of hatred once you think about them. I'm pretty sure he meant the incidents we have seen occur over the last year, and not carpet bombing Russian cities, although I could be wrong. And what regrettable collateral damage. Afaik, there were no casualties.
Blasting some poor Babushka's shop to ruins is still collateral, even if she isn't there at the time.
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My sympathy of collateral damage to a country that is actively engaging in genocide is incredibly limited. They've made their bed
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On July 30 2023 19:22 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2023 19:19 Artesimo wrote:On July 30 2023 18:46 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 18:40 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 18:37 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 18:28 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 18:01 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 30 2023 16:51 Magic Powers wrote:
These words sound righteous on the surface, unfortunately in the context of the drone attacks in Moscow they're very misled. They aren't hitting any Nazis or their families. These are regular folk who don't want anything to do with any of this. I mean, ultimately the reason they hit random people is the same reason GPS has not been working properly ever since that funny incident with drone hitting the Russian Flag in Kremlin: it is interfered to all hell so the only navigation that can reasonably work to send them into buildings that matter now is "offline" (And i can confidently tell you it is more hassle than these drones are worth). If people getting hit should be mad at anyone that would be the genius decision of Russian Ministry of Invading to use comm blockers instead of actual air defence. P. S. And how much the people that get randomly hit in process don't want to do with any of this is really up to debate even in Moscow. Pedestrians generally enjoy getting hit by drone attacks? In what world exactly? Where in this footage is the military target? Afaik, there are many governmental offices in that district. They are a valid target, especially at night. I will not stop countering KwarK's extremely misled views on terrorism against innocent people. He's talking as if these pedestrians are equally valid targets as actual Nazis. I will push back against this kind of talk 100% of the time. There is zero evidence that Ukraine was targeting innocent people and they have every incentive not to do that. We don't even know whether the drone hit its intended target as Russia is using EW to take down those drones instead of proper AA. Civilians living in the same country as the genocidal psychopath who oppresses them are not valid targets of drone attacks. There's no world in which this kind of action should be trivialized or justified. The genocide is perpetrated and cheered on by those ordinary Russians. It's not Putin who's kidnapping those Ukrainian children, committing massacres, torturing people, attacking residential areas, hospitals and shelters. It's Russian soldiers who do that and Russian people who support that. Read KwarK's comment again and tell me you agree with everything he said. Then we can discuss this further. I think he's incorrect in calling them Nazis, but otherwise I fully agree. The vast majority of Russians are imperialists. They come in different flavours - Stalinist, nationalist, and anything in-between - but they all believe that Russia has a divine right to violently subjugate smaller nations. At no point did he suggest that the civilians were the intended targets or that it would be justified. The last sentence together with the rest of his post pretty much turns it into "ends justify the means", which is not explicitly related to the drone attack, but I am past granting him the benefit of the doubt that he just felt like giving a completely unrelated speech. Its the kind of ideology that got us indiscriminate bombings in the past, and its something we do no longer see acceptable in the west. It also is incredibly bad for the credibility of "our side" as in the pro ukraine side. Just concede that it is regrettable collateral damage, maybe have a discussion on if its really a ukrainian attack and not from some other party. Maybe discuss if there was a military target that justified the risk (note on that part: being part of the government in general does not make you a valid military target according to international law. There has to be a direct connection to the war. Like an attack of the defence minister would be fine, the minister of public health and safety not so much.). Maybe discuss if the attack was really ukrainian or like others in the past potentially by ukraine affiliated parties/anti putin parties that are not under direct ukrainian control. Don't incite some weird ideological war to outright justify bombing cities. Reading KwarKs post often make me feel there is some secret TL election running that I am not aware of. They sound grand, but the contents are often vile and full of hatred once you think about them. I'm pretty sure he meant the incidents we have seen occur over the last year, and not carpet bombing Russian cities, although I could be wrong. And what regrettable collateral damage. Afaik, there were no casualties.
Maybe I should remind you that KwarK is the same person who put all Russian soldiers fighting in Ukraine under the umbrella of Nazism. He thinks if a Russian soldier shoots a Ukrainian, they're categorically disqualified from being treated as a human. I'm not making this up.
In this context, do you really think that KwarK is being misrepresented now?
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"The civilians that were harmed by this attack are bad civilians so this attack is totally okay" is a great example of why so many Russians believe that might makes right and that the West talking about human rights and international law is just empty noise.
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On July 30 2023 19:27 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2023 19:22 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 19:19 Artesimo wrote:On July 30 2023 18:46 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 18:40 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 18:37 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 18:28 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 18:01 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 30 2023 16:51 Magic Powers wrote:
These words sound righteous on the surface, unfortunately in the context of the drone attacks in Moscow they're very misled. They aren't hitting any Nazis or their families. These are regular folk who don't want anything to do with any of this. I mean, ultimately the reason they hit random people is the same reason GPS has not been working properly ever since that funny incident with drone hitting the Russian Flag in Kremlin: it is interfered to all hell so the only navigation that can reasonably work to send them into buildings that matter now is "offline" (And i can confidently tell you it is more hassle than these drones are worth). If people getting hit should be mad at anyone that would be the genius decision of Russian Ministry of Invading to use comm blockers instead of actual air defence. P. S. And how much the people that get randomly hit in process don't want to do with any of this is really up to debate even in Moscow. Pedestrians generally enjoy getting hit by drone attacks? In what world exactly? Where in this footage is the military target? Afaik, there are many governmental offices in that district. They are a valid target, especially at night. I will not stop countering KwarK's extremely misled views on terrorism against innocent people. He's talking as if these pedestrians are equally valid targets as actual Nazis. I will push back against this kind of talk 100% of the time. There is zero evidence that Ukraine was targeting innocent people and they have every incentive not to do that. We don't even know whether the drone hit its intended target as Russia is using EW to take down those drones instead of proper AA. Civilians living in the same country as the genocidal psychopath who oppresses them are not valid targets of drone attacks. There's no world in which this kind of action should be trivialized or justified. The genocide is perpetrated and cheered on by those ordinary Russians. It's not Putin who's kidnapping those Ukrainian children, committing massacres, torturing people, attacking residential areas, hospitals and shelters. It's Russian soldiers who do that and Russian people who support that. Read KwarK's comment again and tell me you agree with everything he said. Then we can discuss this further. I think he's incorrect in calling them Nazis, but otherwise I fully agree. The vast majority of Russians are imperialists. They come in different flavours - Stalinist, nationalist, and anything in-between - but they all believe that Russia has a divine right to violently subjugate smaller nations. At no point did he suggest that the civilians were the intended targets or that it would be justified. The last sentence together with the rest of his post pretty much turns it into "ends justify the means", which is not explicitly related to the drone attack, but I am past granting him the benefit of the doubt that he just felt like giving a completely unrelated speech. Its the kind of ideology that got us indiscriminate bombings in the past, and its something we do no longer see acceptable in the west. It also is incredibly bad for the credibility of "our side" as in the pro ukraine side. Just concede that it is regrettable collateral damage, maybe have a discussion on if its really a ukrainian attack and not from some other party. Maybe discuss if there was a military target that justified the risk (note on that part: being part of the government in general does not make you a valid military target according to international law. There has to be a direct connection to the war. Like an attack of the defence minister would be fine, the minister of public health and safety not so much.). Maybe discuss if the attack was really ukrainian or like others in the past potentially by ukraine affiliated parties/anti putin parties that are not under direct ukrainian control. Don't incite some weird ideological war to outright justify bombing cities. Reading KwarKs post often make me feel there is some secret TL election running that I am not aware of. They sound grand, but the contents are often vile and full of hatred once you think about them. I'm pretty sure he meant the incidents we have seen occur over the last year, and not carpet bombing Russian cities, although I could be wrong. And what regrettable collateral damage. Afaik, there were no casualties. Blasting some poor Babushka's shop to ruins is still collateral, even if she isn't there at the time.
Cool, let me know when that happens. The district hit by that drone is Moscow's equivalent of Canary Wharf. It's unlikely anyone poor suffered material damage. Also, when speaking of collateral damage, most people think of people getting injured or killed. Russia has the means to compensate people suffering material damage. It's not on Ukraine to shield ordinary Russians from the consequences of war.
On July 30 2023 19:34 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2023 19:22 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 19:19 Artesimo wrote:On July 30 2023 18:46 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 18:40 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 18:37 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 18:28 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 18:01 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 30 2023 16:51 Magic Powers wrote:
These words sound righteous on the surface, unfortunately in the context of the drone attacks in Moscow they're very misled. They aren't hitting any Nazis or their families. These are regular folk who don't want anything to do with any of this. I mean, ultimately the reason they hit random people is the same reason GPS has not been working properly ever since that funny incident with drone hitting the Russian Flag in Kremlin: it is interfered to all hell so the only navigation that can reasonably work to send them into buildings that matter now is "offline" (And i can confidently tell you it is more hassle than these drones are worth). If people getting hit should be mad at anyone that would be the genius decision of Russian Ministry of Invading to use comm blockers instead of actual air defence. P. S. And how much the people that get randomly hit in process don't want to do with any of this is really up to debate even in Moscow. Pedestrians generally enjoy getting hit by drone attacks? In what world exactly? Where in this footage is the military target? Afaik, there are many governmental offices in that district. They are a valid target, especially at night. I will not stop countering KwarK's extremely misled views on terrorism against innocent people. He's talking as if these pedestrians are equally valid targets as actual Nazis. I will push back against this kind of talk 100% of the time. There is zero evidence that Ukraine was targeting innocent people and they have every incentive not to do that. We don't even know whether the drone hit its intended target as Russia is using EW to take down those drones instead of proper AA. Civilians living in the same country as the genocidal psychopath who oppresses them are not valid targets of drone attacks. There's no world in which this kind of action should be trivialized or justified. The genocide is perpetrated and cheered on by those ordinary Russians. It's not Putin who's kidnapping those Ukrainian children, committing massacres, torturing people, attacking residential areas, hospitals and shelters. It's Russian soldiers who do that and Russian people who support that. Read KwarK's comment again and tell me you agree with everything he said. Then we can discuss this further. I think he's incorrect in calling them Nazis, but otherwise I fully agree. The vast majority of Russians are imperialists. They come in different flavours - Stalinist, nationalist, and anything in-between - but they all believe that Russia has a divine right to violently subjugate smaller nations. At no point did he suggest that the civilians were the intended targets or that it would be justified. The last sentence together with the rest of his post pretty much turns it into "ends justify the means", which is not explicitly related to the drone attack, but I am past granting him the benefit of the doubt that he just felt like giving a completely unrelated speech. Its the kind of ideology that got us indiscriminate bombings in the past, and its something we do no longer see acceptable in the west. It also is incredibly bad for the credibility of "our side" as in the pro ukraine side. Just concede that it is regrettable collateral damage, maybe have a discussion on if its really a ukrainian attack and not from some other party. Maybe discuss if there was a military target that justified the risk (note on that part: being part of the government in general does not make you a valid military target according to international law. There has to be a direct connection to the war. Like an attack of the defence minister would be fine, the minister of public health and safety not so much.). Maybe discuss if the attack was really ukrainian or like others in the past potentially by ukraine affiliated parties/anti putin parties that are not under direct ukrainian control. Don't incite some weird ideological war to outright justify bombing cities. Reading KwarKs post often make me feel there is some secret TL election running that I am not aware of. They sound grand, but the contents are often vile and full of hatred once you think about them. I'm pretty sure he meant the incidents we have seen occur over the last year, and not carpet bombing Russian cities, although I could be wrong. And what regrettable collateral damage. Afaik, there were no casualties. Maybe I should remind you that KwarK is the same person who put all Russian soldiers fighting in Ukraine under the umbrella of Nazism. He thinks if a Russian soldier shoots a Ukrainian, they're categorically disqualified from being treated as a human. I'm not making this up. In this context, do you really think that KwarK is being misrepresented now?
Is this something he said or is this your interpretation? Does being a Nazi disqualify someone from being treated as a human? Is this your view or his? I'm honestly confused.
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Accepting civilian casualties just because they are on the "wrong side" is still wrong.
It's also completely retarded from Ukraine's perspective.Terror bombing has not worked once to demoralise the enemy in the history of modern warfare. Hit a school and the enemy population blames you and hates you more. Hit the electrical substation at the railway line so the train is cancelled *again* and they will be annoyed and blame their government.
You can see it even in this thread with a Russian being annoyed at GPS jamming and calling for more air defence.
That said sending just a few drones weekly to Moscow as a psy-op to get people talking about it is probably a good idea as long as you try to avoid collateral damage.
Spread the rest around trying to hit infrastructure targets and military installations.
Do it enough and there are many things to gain:
- actual damage affecting the war effort (probably minimal but drones are cheap if you can mass produce).
- spreading air defence thin over the country.
- forcing air defence to waste missiles more valuable than their targets.
- making the population angry at their government for not being able to stop the attacks.
- getting people talking about the war.
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On July 30 2023 19:50 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2023 19:27 Acrofales wrote:On July 30 2023 19:22 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 19:19 Artesimo wrote:On July 30 2023 18:46 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 18:40 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 18:37 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 18:28 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 18:01 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 30 2023 16:51 Magic Powers wrote:
These words sound righteous on the surface, unfortunately in the context of the drone attacks in Moscow they're very misled. They aren't hitting any Nazis or their families. These are regular folk who don't want anything to do with any of this. I mean, ultimately the reason they hit random people is the same reason GPS has not been working properly ever since that funny incident with drone hitting the Russian Flag in Kremlin: it is interfered to all hell so the only navigation that can reasonably work to send them into buildings that matter now is "offline" (And i can confidently tell you it is more hassle than these drones are worth). If people getting hit should be mad at anyone that would be the genius decision of Russian Ministry of Invading to use comm blockers instead of actual air defence. P. S. And how much the people that get randomly hit in process don't want to do with any of this is really up to debate even in Moscow. Pedestrians generally enjoy getting hit by drone attacks? In what world exactly? Where in this footage is the military target? Afaik, there are many governmental offices in that district. They are a valid target, especially at night. I will not stop countering KwarK's extremely misled views on terrorism against innocent people. He's talking as if these pedestrians are equally valid targets as actual Nazis. I will push back against this kind of talk 100% of the time. There is zero evidence that Ukraine was targeting innocent people and they have every incentive not to do that. We don't even know whether the drone hit its intended target as Russia is using EW to take down those drones instead of proper AA. Civilians living in the same country as the genocidal psychopath who oppresses them are not valid targets of drone attacks. There's no world in which this kind of action should be trivialized or justified. The genocide is perpetrated and cheered on by those ordinary Russians. It's not Putin who's kidnapping those Ukrainian children, committing massacres, torturing people, attacking residential areas, hospitals and shelters. It's Russian soldiers who do that and Russian people who support that. Read KwarK's comment again and tell me you agree with everything he said. Then we can discuss this further. I think he's incorrect in calling them Nazis, but otherwise I fully agree. The vast majority of Russians are imperialists. They come in different flavours - Stalinist, nationalist, and anything in-between - but they all believe that Russia has a divine right to violently subjugate smaller nations. At no point did he suggest that the civilians were the intended targets or that it would be justified. The last sentence together with the rest of his post pretty much turns it into "ends justify the means", which is not explicitly related to the drone attack, but I am past granting him the benefit of the doubt that he just felt like giving a completely unrelated speech. Its the kind of ideology that got us indiscriminate bombings in the past, and its something we do no longer see acceptable in the west. It also is incredibly bad for the credibility of "our side" as in the pro ukraine side. Just concede that it is regrettable collateral damage, maybe have a discussion on if its really a ukrainian attack and not from some other party. Maybe discuss if there was a military target that justified the risk (note on that part: being part of the government in general does not make you a valid military target according to international law. There has to be a direct connection to the war. Like an attack of the defence minister would be fine, the minister of public health and safety not so much.). Maybe discuss if the attack was really ukrainian or like others in the past potentially by ukraine affiliated parties/anti putin parties that are not under direct ukrainian control. Don't incite some weird ideological war to outright justify bombing cities. Reading KwarKs post often make me feel there is some secret TL election running that I am not aware of. They sound grand, but the contents are often vile and full of hatred once you think about them. I'm pretty sure he meant the incidents we have seen occur over the last year, and not carpet bombing Russian cities, although I could be wrong. And what regrettable collateral damage. Afaik, there were no casualties. Blasting some poor Babushka's shop to ruins is still collateral, even if she isn't there at the time. Cool, let me know when that happens. The district hit by that drone is Moscow's equivalent of Canary Wharf. It's unlikely anyone poor suffered material damage. Also, when speaking of collateral damage, most people think of people getting injured or killed. Russia has the means to compensate people suffering material damage. It's not on Ukraine to shield ordinary Russians from the consequences of war. Show nested quote +On July 30 2023 19:34 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 19:22 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 19:19 Artesimo wrote:On July 30 2023 18:46 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 18:40 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 18:37 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 18:28 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 18:01 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 30 2023 16:51 Magic Powers wrote:
These words sound righteous on the surface, unfortunately in the context of the drone attacks in Moscow they're very misled. They aren't hitting any Nazis or their families. These are regular folk who don't want anything to do with any of this. I mean, ultimately the reason they hit random people is the same reason GPS has not been working properly ever since that funny incident with drone hitting the Russian Flag in Kremlin: it is interfered to all hell so the only navigation that can reasonably work to send them into buildings that matter now is "offline" (And i can confidently tell you it is more hassle than these drones are worth). If people getting hit should be mad at anyone that would be the genius decision of Russian Ministry of Invading to use comm blockers instead of actual air defence. P. S. And how much the people that get randomly hit in process don't want to do with any of this is really up to debate even in Moscow. Pedestrians generally enjoy getting hit by drone attacks? In what world exactly? Where in this footage is the military target? Afaik, there are many governmental offices in that district. They are a valid target, especially at night. I will not stop countering KwarK's extremely misled views on terrorism against innocent people. He's talking as if these pedestrians are equally valid targets as actual Nazis. I will push back against this kind of talk 100% of the time. There is zero evidence that Ukraine was targeting innocent people and they have every incentive not to do that. We don't even know whether the drone hit its intended target as Russia is using EW to take down those drones instead of proper AA. Civilians living in the same country as the genocidal psychopath who oppresses them are not valid targets of drone attacks. There's no world in which this kind of action should be trivialized or justified. The genocide is perpetrated and cheered on by those ordinary Russians. It's not Putin who's kidnapping those Ukrainian children, committing massacres, torturing people, attacking residential areas, hospitals and shelters. It's Russian soldiers who do that and Russian people who support that. Read KwarK's comment again and tell me you agree with everything he said. Then we can discuss this further. I think he's incorrect in calling them Nazis, but otherwise I fully agree. The vast majority of Russians are imperialists. They come in different flavours - Stalinist, nationalist, and anything in-between - but they all believe that Russia has a divine right to violently subjugate smaller nations. At no point did he suggest that the civilians were the intended targets or that it would be justified. The last sentence together with the rest of his post pretty much turns it into "ends justify the means", which is not explicitly related to the drone attack, but I am past granting him the benefit of the doubt that he just felt like giving a completely unrelated speech. Its the kind of ideology that got us indiscriminate bombings in the past, and its something we do no longer see acceptable in the west. It also is incredibly bad for the credibility of "our side" as in the pro ukraine side. Just concede that it is regrettable collateral damage, maybe have a discussion on if its really a ukrainian attack and not from some other party. Maybe discuss if there was a military target that justified the risk (note on that part: being part of the government in general does not make you a valid military target according to international law. There has to be a direct connection to the war. Like an attack of the defence minister would be fine, the minister of public health and safety not so much.). Maybe discuss if the attack was really ukrainian or like others in the past potentially by ukraine affiliated parties/anti putin parties that are not under direct ukrainian control. Don't incite some weird ideological war to outright justify bombing cities. Reading KwarKs post often make me feel there is some secret TL election running that I am not aware of. They sound grand, but the contents are often vile and full of hatred once you think about them. I'm pretty sure he meant the incidents we have seen occur over the last year, and not carpet bombing Russian cities, although I could be wrong. And what regrettable collateral damage. Afaik, there were no casualties. Maybe I should remind you that KwarK is the same person who put all Russian soldiers fighting in Ukraine under the umbrella of Nazism. He thinks if a Russian soldier shoots a Ukrainian, they're categorically disqualified from being treated as a human. I'm not making this up. In this context, do you really think that KwarK is being misrepresented now? Is this something he said or is this your interpretation? Does being a Nazi disqualify someone from being treated as a human? Is this your view or his? I'm honestly confused.
KwarK believes that all Russian soldiers are Nazis. Categorically. He thinks they're all actively participating in genocide because they're actively fighting against Ukrainian soldiers. They're enablers of genocide at best, and committing genocide at worst. That's what he thinks. It follows for him that all Russian soldiers have surrendered all of their rights, that includes the right to be treated with basic dignity and respect under any circumstances, and only if they lay down their weapons can they be considered human. To KwarK there's no distinction between Russian soldiers who are forced or coerced into participation and those who are gladly willing to kill Ukrainians. They're all the same in his mind.
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On July 30 2023 20:04 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2023 19:50 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 19:27 Acrofales wrote:On July 30 2023 19:22 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 19:19 Artesimo wrote:On July 30 2023 18:46 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 18:40 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 18:37 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 18:28 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 18:01 lolfail9001 wrote:
[quote]
I mean, ultimately the reason they hit random people is the same reason GPS has not been working properly ever since that funny incident with drone hitting the Russian Flag in Kremlin: it is interfered to all hell so the only navigation that can reasonably work to send them into buildings that matter now is "offline" (And i can confidently tell you it is more hassle than these drones are worth). If people getting hit should be mad at anyone that would be the genius decision of Russian Ministry of Invading to use comm blockers instead of actual air defence.
P. S. And how much the people that get randomly hit in process don't want to do with any of this is really up to debate even in Moscow. Pedestrians generally enjoy getting hit by drone attacks? In what world exactly? Where in this footage is the military target? Afaik, there are many governmental offices in that district. They are a valid target, especially at night. I will not stop countering KwarK's extremely misled views on terrorism against innocent people. He's talking as if these pedestrians are equally valid targets as actual Nazis. I will push back against this kind of talk 100% of the time. There is zero evidence that Ukraine was targeting innocent people and they have every incentive not to do that. We don't even know whether the drone hit its intended target as Russia is using EW to take down those drones instead of proper AA. Civilians living in the same country as the genocidal psychopath who oppresses them are not valid targets of drone attacks. There's no world in which this kind of action should be trivialized or justified. The genocide is perpetrated and cheered on by those ordinary Russians. It's not Putin who's kidnapping those Ukrainian children, committing massacres, torturing people, attacking residential areas, hospitals and shelters. It's Russian soldiers who do that and Russian people who support that. Read KwarK's comment again and tell me you agree with everything he said. Then we can discuss this further. I think he's incorrect in calling them Nazis, but otherwise I fully agree. The vast majority of Russians are imperialists. They come in different flavours - Stalinist, nationalist, and anything in-between - but they all believe that Russia has a divine right to violently subjugate smaller nations. At no point did he suggest that the civilians were the intended targets or that it would be justified. The last sentence together with the rest of his post pretty much turns it into "ends justify the means", which is not explicitly related to the drone attack, but I am past granting him the benefit of the doubt that he just felt like giving a completely unrelated speech. Its the kind of ideology that got us indiscriminate bombings in the past, and its something we do no longer see acceptable in the west. It also is incredibly bad for the credibility of "our side" as in the pro ukraine side. Just concede that it is regrettable collateral damage, maybe have a discussion on if its really a ukrainian attack and not from some other party. Maybe discuss if there was a military target that justified the risk (note on that part: being part of the government in general does not make you a valid military target according to international law. There has to be a direct connection to the war. Like an attack of the defence minister would be fine, the minister of public health and safety not so much.). Maybe discuss if the attack was really ukrainian or like others in the past potentially by ukraine affiliated parties/anti putin parties that are not under direct ukrainian control. Don't incite some weird ideological war to outright justify bombing cities. Reading KwarKs post often make me feel there is some secret TL election running that I am not aware of. They sound grand, but the contents are often vile and full of hatred once you think about them. I'm pretty sure he meant the incidents we have seen occur over the last year, and not carpet bombing Russian cities, although I could be wrong. And what regrettable collateral damage. Afaik, there were no casualties. Blasting some poor Babushka's shop to ruins is still collateral, even if she isn't there at the time. Cool, let me know when that happens. The district hit by that drone is Moscow's equivalent of Canary Wharf. It's unlikely anyone poor suffered material damage. Also, when speaking of collateral damage, most people think of people getting injured or killed. Russia has the means to compensate people suffering material damage. It's not on Ukraine to shield ordinary Russians from the consequences of war. On July 30 2023 19:34 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 19:22 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 19:19 Artesimo wrote:On July 30 2023 18:46 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 18:40 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 18:37 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 18:28 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 18:01 lolfail9001 wrote:
[quote]
I mean, ultimately the reason they hit random people is the same reason GPS has not been working properly ever since that funny incident with drone hitting the Russian Flag in Kremlin: it is interfered to all hell so the only navigation that can reasonably work to send them into buildings that matter now is "offline" (And i can confidently tell you it is more hassle than these drones are worth). If people getting hit should be mad at anyone that would be the genius decision of Russian Ministry of Invading to use comm blockers instead of actual air defence.
P. S. And how much the people that get randomly hit in process don't want to do with any of this is really up to debate even in Moscow. Pedestrians generally enjoy getting hit by drone attacks? In what world exactly? Where in this footage is the military target? Afaik, there are many governmental offices in that district. They are a valid target, especially at night. I will not stop countering KwarK's extremely misled views on terrorism against innocent people. He's talking as if these pedestrians are equally valid targets as actual Nazis. I will push back against this kind of talk 100% of the time. There is zero evidence that Ukraine was targeting innocent people and they have every incentive not to do that. We don't even know whether the drone hit its intended target as Russia is using EW to take down those drones instead of proper AA. Civilians living in the same country as the genocidal psychopath who oppresses them are not valid targets of drone attacks. There's no world in which this kind of action should be trivialized or justified. The genocide is perpetrated and cheered on by those ordinary Russians. It's not Putin who's kidnapping those Ukrainian children, committing massacres, torturing people, attacking residential areas, hospitals and shelters. It's Russian soldiers who do that and Russian people who support that. Read KwarK's comment again and tell me you agree with everything he said. Then we can discuss this further. I think he's incorrect in calling them Nazis, but otherwise I fully agree. The vast majority of Russians are imperialists. They come in different flavours - Stalinist, nationalist, and anything in-between - but they all believe that Russia has a divine right to violently subjugate smaller nations. At no point did he suggest that the civilians were the intended targets or that it would be justified. The last sentence together with the rest of his post pretty much turns it into "ends justify the means", which is not explicitly related to the drone attack, but I am past granting him the benefit of the doubt that he just felt like giving a completely unrelated speech. Its the kind of ideology that got us indiscriminate bombings in the past, and its something we do no longer see acceptable in the west. It also is incredibly bad for the credibility of "our side" as in the pro ukraine side. Just concede that it is regrettable collateral damage, maybe have a discussion on if its really a ukrainian attack and not from some other party. Maybe discuss if there was a military target that justified the risk (note on that part: being part of the government in general does not make you a valid military target according to international law. There has to be a direct connection to the war. Like an attack of the defence minister would be fine, the minister of public health and safety not so much.). Maybe discuss if the attack was really ukrainian or like others in the past potentially by ukraine affiliated parties/anti putin parties that are not under direct ukrainian control. Don't incite some weird ideological war to outright justify bombing cities. Reading KwarKs post often make me feel there is some secret TL election running that I am not aware of. They sound grand, but the contents are often vile and full of hatred once you think about them. I'm pretty sure he meant the incidents we have seen occur over the last year, and not carpet bombing Russian cities, although I could be wrong. And what regrettable collateral damage. Afaik, there were no casualties. Maybe I should remind you that KwarK is the same person who put all Russian soldiers fighting in Ukraine under the umbrella of Nazism. He thinks if a Russian soldier shoots a Ukrainian, they're categorically disqualified from being treated as a human. I'm not making this up. In this context, do you really think that KwarK is being misrepresented now? Is this something he said or is this your interpretation? Does being a Nazi disqualify someone from being treated as a human? Is this your view or his? I'm honestly confused. KwarK believes that all Russian soldiers are Nazis. Categorically. He thinks they're all actively participating in genocide because they're actively fighting against Ukrainian soldiers. They're enablers of genocide at best, and committing genocide at worst.
That is factually correct, aside from the Nazi part.
That's what he thinks. It follows for him that all Russian soldiers have surrendered all of their rights, that includes the right to be treated with basic dignity and respect under any circumstances, and only if they lay down their weapons can they be considered human. To KwarK there's no distinction between Russian soldiers who are forced or coerced into participation and those who are gladly willing to kill Ukrainians. They're all the same in his mind.
Is this something he said or is this your extrapolation from the earlier statement?
I'm also skeptical that he makes no distinction between Russians willingly fighting in this war and those coerced. The latter are a small minority, from what I can tell.
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On July 30 2023 20:04 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2023 19:50 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 19:27 Acrofales wrote:On July 30 2023 19:22 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 19:19 Artesimo wrote:On July 30 2023 18:46 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 18:40 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 18:37 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 18:28 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 18:01 lolfail9001 wrote:
[quote]
I mean, ultimately the reason they hit random people is the same reason GPS has not been working properly ever since that funny incident with drone hitting the Russian Flag in Kremlin: it is interfered to all hell so the only navigation that can reasonably work to send them into buildings that matter now is "offline" (And i can confidently tell you it is more hassle than these drones are worth). If people getting hit should be mad at anyone that would be the genius decision of Russian Ministry of Invading to use comm blockers instead of actual air defence.
P. S. And how much the people that get randomly hit in process don't want to do with any of this is really up to debate even in Moscow. Pedestrians generally enjoy getting hit by drone attacks? In what world exactly? Where in this footage is the military target? Afaik, there are many governmental offices in that district. They are a valid target, especially at night. I will not stop countering KwarK's extremely misled views on terrorism against innocent people. He's talking as if these pedestrians are equally valid targets as actual Nazis. I will push back against this kind of talk 100% of the time. There is zero evidence that Ukraine was targeting innocent people and they have every incentive not to do that. We don't even know whether the drone hit its intended target as Russia is using EW to take down those drones instead of proper AA. Civilians living in the same country as the genocidal psychopath who oppresses them are not valid targets of drone attacks. There's no world in which this kind of action should be trivialized or justified. The genocide is perpetrated and cheered on by those ordinary Russians. It's not Putin who's kidnapping those Ukrainian children, committing massacres, torturing people, attacking residential areas, hospitals and shelters. It's Russian soldiers who do that and Russian people who support that. Read KwarK's comment again and tell me you agree with everything he said. Then we can discuss this further. I think he's incorrect in calling them Nazis, but otherwise I fully agree. The vast majority of Russians are imperialists. They come in different flavours - Stalinist, nationalist, and anything in-between - but they all believe that Russia has a divine right to violently subjugate smaller nations. At no point did he suggest that the civilians were the intended targets or that it would be justified. The last sentence together with the rest of his post pretty much turns it into "ends justify the means", which is not explicitly related to the drone attack, but I am past granting him the benefit of the doubt that he just felt like giving a completely unrelated speech. Its the kind of ideology that got us indiscriminate bombings in the past, and its something we do no longer see acceptable in the west. It also is incredibly bad for the credibility of "our side" as in the pro ukraine side. Just concede that it is regrettable collateral damage, maybe have a discussion on if its really a ukrainian attack and not from some other party. Maybe discuss if there was a military target that justified the risk (note on that part: being part of the government in general does not make you a valid military target according to international law. There has to be a direct connection to the war. Like an attack of the defence minister would be fine, the minister of public health and safety not so much.). Maybe discuss if the attack was really ukrainian or like others in the past potentially by ukraine affiliated parties/anti putin parties that are not under direct ukrainian control. Don't incite some weird ideological war to outright justify bombing cities. Reading KwarKs post often make me feel there is some secret TL election running that I am not aware of. They sound grand, but the contents are often vile and full of hatred once you think about them. I'm pretty sure he meant the incidents we have seen occur over the last year, and not carpet bombing Russian cities, although I could be wrong. And what regrettable collateral damage. Afaik, there were no casualties. Blasting some poor Babushka's shop to ruins is still collateral, even if she isn't there at the time. Cool, let me know when that happens. The district hit by that drone is Moscow's equivalent of Canary Wharf. It's unlikely anyone poor suffered material damage. Also, when speaking of collateral damage, most people think of people getting injured or killed. Russia has the means to compensate people suffering material damage. It's not on Ukraine to shield ordinary Russians from the consequences of war. On July 30 2023 19:34 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 19:22 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 19:19 Artesimo wrote:On July 30 2023 18:46 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 18:40 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 18:37 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 18:28 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 18:01 lolfail9001 wrote:
[quote]
I mean, ultimately the reason they hit random people is the same reason GPS has not been working properly ever since that funny incident with drone hitting the Russian Flag in Kremlin: it is interfered to all hell so the only navigation that can reasonably work to send them into buildings that matter now is "offline" (And i can confidently tell you it is more hassle than these drones are worth). If people getting hit should be mad at anyone that would be the genius decision of Russian Ministry of Invading to use comm blockers instead of actual air defence.
P. S. And how much the people that get randomly hit in process don't want to do with any of this is really up to debate even in Moscow. Pedestrians generally enjoy getting hit by drone attacks? In what world exactly? Where in this footage is the military target? Afaik, there are many governmental offices in that district. They are a valid target, especially at night. I will not stop countering KwarK's extremely misled views on terrorism against innocent people. He's talking as if these pedestrians are equally valid targets as actual Nazis. I will push back against this kind of talk 100% of the time. There is zero evidence that Ukraine was targeting innocent people and they have every incentive not to do that. We don't even know whether the drone hit its intended target as Russia is using EW to take down those drones instead of proper AA. Civilians living in the same country as the genocidal psychopath who oppresses them are not valid targets of drone attacks. There's no world in which this kind of action should be trivialized or justified. The genocide is perpetrated and cheered on by those ordinary Russians. It's not Putin who's kidnapping those Ukrainian children, committing massacres, torturing people, attacking residential areas, hospitals and shelters. It's Russian soldiers who do that and Russian people who support that. Read KwarK's comment again and tell me you agree with everything he said. Then we can discuss this further. I think he's incorrect in calling them Nazis, but otherwise I fully agree. The vast majority of Russians are imperialists. They come in different flavours - Stalinist, nationalist, and anything in-between - but they all believe that Russia has a divine right to violently subjugate smaller nations. At no point did he suggest that the civilians were the intended targets or that it would be justified. The last sentence together with the rest of his post pretty much turns it into "ends justify the means", which is not explicitly related to the drone attack, but I am past granting him the benefit of the doubt that he just felt like giving a completely unrelated speech. Its the kind of ideology that got us indiscriminate bombings in the past, and its something we do no longer see acceptable in the west. It also is incredibly bad for the credibility of "our side" as in the pro ukraine side. Just concede that it is regrettable collateral damage, maybe have a discussion on if its really a ukrainian attack and not from some other party. Maybe discuss if there was a military target that justified the risk (note on that part: being part of the government in general does not make you a valid military target according to international law. There has to be a direct connection to the war. Like an attack of the defence minister would be fine, the minister of public health and safety not so much.). Maybe discuss if the attack was really ukrainian or like others in the past potentially by ukraine affiliated parties/anti putin parties that are not under direct ukrainian control. Don't incite some weird ideological war to outright justify bombing cities. Reading KwarKs post often make me feel there is some secret TL election running that I am not aware of. They sound grand, but the contents are often vile and full of hatred once you think about them. I'm pretty sure he meant the incidents we have seen occur over the last year, and not carpet bombing Russian cities, although I could be wrong. And what regrettable collateral damage. Afaik, there were no casualties. Maybe I should remind you that KwarK is the same person who put all Russian soldiers fighting in Ukraine under the umbrella of Nazism. He thinks if a Russian soldier shoots a Ukrainian, they're categorically disqualified from being treated as a human. I'm not making this up. In this context, do you really think that KwarK is being misrepresented now? Is this something he said or is this your interpretation? Does being a Nazi disqualify someone from being treated as a human? Is this your view or his? I'm honestly confused. He thinks they're all actively participating in genocide because they're actively fighting against Ukrainian soldiers. They're enablers of genocide at best, and committing genocide at worst. That's what he thinks. ... They are.
They are invading a nation with the intent of genocide. Not every soldier might individually be out for genocide but they are all marching to the orders of a command that 100% is.
So yes, they are genocide enablers at best by mere fact of being a Russia soldier currently invading Ukraine.
And sure war should ideally have no civilian casualties but its so very easy to sit here in our safe and secure Western seats completely removed from any concept of war and wag our finger at a people fighting for literal survival and tell them to stop potentially hitting a civilian in the process of trying to win the war and save their lives, the lives of everyone they love and the continued existence of their country.
Calling a drone attack on certain targets in Moscow a 'terror bombing' as if the only possible objective of this attack could only have been to kill random Russian citizens in indiscriminate violence is simply moronic.
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On July 30 2023 19:58 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Accepting civilian casualties just because they are on the "wrong side" is still wrong.
It's also completely retarded from Ukraine's perspective.Terror bombing has not worked once to demoralise the enemy in the history of modern warfare.
Ukraine is convinced that strikes on Moscow humiliate and weaken Putin in Russian internal politics.
If you are trying to trigger another coup they make perfect sense regardless of civilian casualties.
We might not agree with that assessment but there is some logic behind it.
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On July 30 2023 20:18 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2023 20:04 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 19:50 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 19:27 Acrofales wrote:On July 30 2023 19:22 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 19:19 Artesimo wrote:On July 30 2023 18:46 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 18:40 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 18:37 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 18:28 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
Pedestrians generally enjoy getting hit by drone attacks? In what world exactly?
Where in this footage is the military target? Afaik, there are many governmental offices in that district. They are a valid target, especially at night. I will not stop countering KwarK's extremely misled views on terrorism against innocent people. He's talking as if these pedestrians are equally valid targets as actual Nazis. I will push back against this kind of talk 100% of the time. There is zero evidence that Ukraine was targeting innocent people and they have every incentive not to do that. We don't even know whether the drone hit its intended target as Russia is using EW to take down those drones instead of proper AA. Civilians living in the same country as the genocidal psychopath who oppresses them are not valid targets of drone attacks. There's no world in which this kind of action should be trivialized or justified. The genocide is perpetrated and cheered on by those ordinary Russians. It's not Putin who's kidnapping those Ukrainian children, committing massacres, torturing people, attacking residential areas, hospitals and shelters. It's Russian soldiers who do that and Russian people who support that. Read KwarK's comment again and tell me you agree with everything he said. Then we can discuss this further. I think he's incorrect in calling them Nazis, but otherwise I fully agree. The vast majority of Russians are imperialists. They come in different flavours - Stalinist, nationalist, and anything in-between - but they all believe that Russia has a divine right to violently subjugate smaller nations. At no point did he suggest that the civilians were the intended targets or that it would be justified. The last sentence together with the rest of his post pretty much turns it into "ends justify the means", which is not explicitly related to the drone attack, but I am past granting him the benefit of the doubt that he just felt like giving a completely unrelated speech. Its the kind of ideology that got us indiscriminate bombings in the past, and its something we do no longer see acceptable in the west. It also is incredibly bad for the credibility of "our side" as in the pro ukraine side. Just concede that it is regrettable collateral damage, maybe have a discussion on if its really a ukrainian attack and not from some other party. Maybe discuss if there was a military target that justified the risk (note on that part: being part of the government in general does not make you a valid military target according to international law. There has to be a direct connection to the war. Like an attack of the defence minister would be fine, the minister of public health and safety not so much.). Maybe discuss if the attack was really ukrainian or like others in the past potentially by ukraine affiliated parties/anti putin parties that are not under direct ukrainian control. Don't incite some weird ideological war to outright justify bombing cities. Reading KwarKs post often make me feel there is some secret TL election running that I am not aware of. They sound grand, but the contents are often vile and full of hatred once you think about them. I'm pretty sure he meant the incidents we have seen occur over the last year, and not carpet bombing Russian cities, although I could be wrong. And what regrettable collateral damage. Afaik, there were no casualties. Blasting some poor Babushka's shop to ruins is still collateral, even if she isn't there at the time. Cool, let me know when that happens. The district hit by that drone is Moscow's equivalent of Canary Wharf. It's unlikely anyone poor suffered material damage. Also, when speaking of collateral damage, most people think of people getting injured or killed. Russia has the means to compensate people suffering material damage. It's not on Ukraine to shield ordinary Russians from the consequences of war. On July 30 2023 19:34 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 19:22 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 19:19 Artesimo wrote:On July 30 2023 18:46 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 18:40 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 18:37 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 18:28 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
Pedestrians generally enjoy getting hit by drone attacks? In what world exactly?
Where in this footage is the military target? Afaik, there are many governmental offices in that district. They are a valid target, especially at night. I will not stop countering KwarK's extremely misled views on terrorism against innocent people. He's talking as if these pedestrians are equally valid targets as actual Nazis. I will push back against this kind of talk 100% of the time. There is zero evidence that Ukraine was targeting innocent people and they have every incentive not to do that. We don't even know whether the drone hit its intended target as Russia is using EW to take down those drones instead of proper AA. Civilians living in the same country as the genocidal psychopath who oppresses them are not valid targets of drone attacks. There's no world in which this kind of action should be trivialized or justified. The genocide is perpetrated and cheered on by those ordinary Russians. It's not Putin who's kidnapping those Ukrainian children, committing massacres, torturing people, attacking residential areas, hospitals and shelters. It's Russian soldiers who do that and Russian people who support that. Read KwarK's comment again and tell me you agree with everything he said. Then we can discuss this further. I think he's incorrect in calling them Nazis, but otherwise I fully agree. The vast majority of Russians are imperialists. They come in different flavours - Stalinist, nationalist, and anything in-between - but they all believe that Russia has a divine right to violently subjugate smaller nations. At no point did he suggest that the civilians were the intended targets or that it would be justified. The last sentence together with the rest of his post pretty much turns it into "ends justify the means", which is not explicitly related to the drone attack, but I am past granting him the benefit of the doubt that he just felt like giving a completely unrelated speech. Its the kind of ideology that got us indiscriminate bombings in the past, and its something we do no longer see acceptable in the west. It also is incredibly bad for the credibility of "our side" as in the pro ukraine side. Just concede that it is regrettable collateral damage, maybe have a discussion on if its really a ukrainian attack and not from some other party. Maybe discuss if there was a military target that justified the risk (note on that part: being part of the government in general does not make you a valid military target according to international law. There has to be a direct connection to the war. Like an attack of the defence minister would be fine, the minister of public health and safety not so much.). Maybe discuss if the attack was really ukrainian or like others in the past potentially by ukraine affiliated parties/anti putin parties that are not under direct ukrainian control. Don't incite some weird ideological war to outright justify bombing cities. Reading KwarKs post often make me feel there is some secret TL election running that I am not aware of. They sound grand, but the contents are often vile and full of hatred once you think about them. I'm pretty sure he meant the incidents we have seen occur over the last year, and not carpet bombing Russian cities, although I could be wrong. And what regrettable collateral damage. Afaik, there were no casualties. Maybe I should remind you that KwarK is the same person who put all Russian soldiers fighting in Ukraine under the umbrella of Nazism. He thinks if a Russian soldier shoots a Ukrainian, they're categorically disqualified from being treated as a human. I'm not making this up. In this context, do you really think that KwarK is being misrepresented now? Is this something he said or is this your interpretation? Does being a Nazi disqualify someone from being treated as a human? Is this your view or his? I'm honestly confused. KwarK believes that all Russian soldiers are Nazis. Categorically. He thinks they're all actively participating in genocide because they're actively fighting against Ukrainian soldiers. They're enablers of genocide at best, and committing genocide at worst. That is factually correct, aside from the Nazi part. Show nested quote +That's what he thinks. It follows for him that all Russian soldiers have surrendered all of their rights, that includes the right to be treated with basic dignity and respect under any circumstances, and only if they lay down their weapons can they be considered human. To KwarK there's no distinction between Russian soldiers who are forced or coerced into participation and those who are gladly willing to kill Ukrainians. They're all the same in his mind. Is this something he said or is this your extrapolation from the earlier statement? I'm also skeptical that he makes no distinction between Russians willingly fighting in this war and those coerced. The latter are a small minority, from what I can tell.
Many Russian soldiers are forced into participation. How does that make them either Nazis or enablers of genocide?
To the second part: I didn't extrapolate anything. He said these things, I'm only paraphrasing what he said. I'm being quite careful with my wording. He makes no meaningful distinction between Russian soldiers if they're actively fighting in this war. To him they're all either committing genocide or enabling genocide. That is either directly or indirectly. Note my choice of words: they're all knowing participants of genocide, not ignorant. They're at best willing to actively create the conditions for genocide, and at worst they are directly committing genocide.
I do not consider it factual to say that all Russian soldiers are enabling genocide. That would imply things about them that we cannot assume, like having full autonomy over their lives. This cannot be said about soldiers who are not in a position to refuse orders. But they can't all refuse orders, and it's not always possible to surrender to Ukrainian soldiers (even assuming that a Russian soldier is at all aware that they're on the wrong side of history, which we cannot assume due to all the Russian propaganda). A lot of the time Russian soldiers are forced to fight because they're stuck in a catch 22. Even those who are aware that a genocide is happening (which certainly isn't all of them) in many cases don't have the means to escape their predicament.
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I want to ask people what they think of when they hear the words "enabling genocide". Because I don't think we're on the same page.
Am I enabling global warming by heating my apartment and buying products from CO2 non-neutral companies? That'd be fairly absurd in my mind. It'd imply that people are enabling all kinds of suffering that they're not responsible for.
I would not use the word "enable" this way. It means something more willful and autonomous. At least three conditions must be met, that is 1) I'm aware that my actions contribute to a cause that I'm also aware of, and 2) I have reasonable means to end my contribution without threat of harm to myself, and 3) I can be said to be mostly or entirely in control of my actions.
Without these conditions I don't think people can be considered enablers. And I don't think that these conditions all apply to all Russian soldiers regarding the genocide in Ukraine.
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On July 30 2023 20:56 Magic Powers wrote:
I want to ask people what they think of when they hear the words "enabling genocide". Because I don't think we're on the same page.
Am I enabling global warming by heating my apartment and buying products from CO2 non-neutral companies? That'd be fairly absurd in my mind. It'd imply that people are enabling all kinds of suffering that they're not responsible for.
I would not use the word "enable" this way. It means something more willful and autonomous. At least three conditions must be met, that is 1) I'm aware that my actions contribute to a cause that I'm also aware of, and 2) I have reasonable means to end my contribution without threat of harm to myself, and 3) I can be said to be mostly or entirely in control of my actions.
Without these conditions I don't think people can be considered enablers. And I don't think that these conditions all apply to all Russian soldiers regarding the genocide in Ukraine.
Side topic. Based on your criteria you are enabling global warming.
You are aware you contribute CO2 and other pollutants by your purchases and actions.
You can change lifestyle to reduce CO2 easily. To get to 0 we can discuss if that is without threat of harm to you, but you could at worst afford climate compensation once you have lowered impact.
You are entirely in control of your actions. You can decide to join the Amish as an extreme example. You can change lifestyle so you don't have to use a personal vehicle, buy "green" electricity and go vegan.
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Enable doesn't have a willful component. It just means making something possible. So yes you are enabling global warming like pretty much every human contributing greenhouse gasses in their lives.
Going to Ukrainian soil to kill Ukranians or loading rockets to fire on Ukranian buildings does enable the genocide of Ukranians. Even just paying taxes that buy rockets enables it in a way.
The morality of being forced by existing in a system, or choosing to is a bit different discussion. There's still a choice to not do harm to Ukrainians the end, even if it can come at big personal cost of prison.
Just like we humans choose to use cars because the system expects it of us, even if we know moving around in a 1200kg hunk of iron is a stupid use of energy. You can't claim no morale responsibility for enjoying the convenience of modern transport over walking/biking even if the system demands us to be able to move 100km in an hour to show up somewhere.
It's very difficult to live contrary to the system though. Mobilized definitely share less of the moral burden than the designers and proponents of this invasion/war. But their is still a moral component there.
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EPT
