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United States42008 Posts
On May 23 2023 04:42 Ardias wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2023 04:13 KwarK wrote:On May 23 2023 03:49 zeo wrote:On May 23 2023 01:48 KwarK wrote:On May 23 2023 01:15 food wrote:On May 23 2023 01:08 [Phantom] wrote:
What does "Volunteer" means here? Basically a terrosits in favor of Ukraine atacking the Russia city from within? Technically, these are russian volunteers in favor of Russia without Putin. Not unlike russian-propped separatists in Donbass in 2014. The only difference is this isn't meant to become a permanent conflict zone, this is to confuse and stretch the enemy before the offensive. If they use Russian territory to flank russians in Ukraine, it would be absolutely amazing. There were materially no separatists in 2014. The Russian army has subsequently admitted it was literally just Russian troops, exactly as Ukraine asserted for years. I'm sorry but this is the most off-the-wall, pants-on-head take I've seen in years. Plausibly, you can claim that at some point the Russian state sent aid like military instructors, missiles, spare parts, before the August offensive in 2014 though how much and to what extent is still up for debate. All actors at the beginning basically shat on Moscow for not coming to their aid and leaving them to fight the 'new government' in Kiev with whatever they could scavenge from the military bases in the area, while Moscow only cared about their precious Crimea. The Ukrainian police, firefighters and army personal in the region openly refusing orders from Kiev, standing on the side of the protesters/people and forming their own parallel institutions were actually Russian troops born, raised and working in those areas for decades? This is what you are saying? You are claiming unironically that the entire anti-Maidan uprising was just Russian MoD personal? No locals, not one of the 45,000 troops the Donbass Republics had at the beginning of February 2022 was ever involved in 2014 or none of them were locals to the area or Ukraine as a whole? Not one Ukrainian passport? Like, I get the revisionism and propaganda stuffing since 2022. But there should be some limit when you want to write a QAnon tier conspiracy theory and your mind tells you 'wait, what the fuck did I just write?' This is genuinely less realistic than the posters on here that claimed that more civilians died in Mariupol than in Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. Is this actually being pushed as even remotely passable anywhere? You have to be extremally detached from any information from the area before 2022 and even then it sounds crazy. Read a comment about Artemovsk yesterday, something about 50 Ukrainian helicopters being shot down. I mean sure, quite a few were shot down, but 50? Thats like double the helicopters Ukraine had before the war. Again, not as off the wall as your comment but if you want to stuff propaganda down everybody's throat, at least put in minimal effort when you know its not just the peanut gallery reading. EDIT: On second thought its satire right? It was Russian troops. Which one of those would be Donetsk' "Berkut" or "Alpha" units? Or elements of Ukrainian 25th Airborne brigade? Or where did people such as Aleksandr Khodakovsky, Artyom Zhoga, Vladimir Zhoga, Aleksandr Zakharchenko, Olga Kachura, Aleksandr Dikiy, Mikhail Tolstyh (aka "Givi"), Pavel Dremov, Aleksandr Bednov, Aleksey Mozgovoi, Pavel Gubarev were born and lived, and which citizenship they had? Of renowned field commanders of Donbass War only Igor Girkin (aka Strelkov), Arsen Pavlov (aka Motorola) and Nikolay Kozitsyn were completely Russian, and Igor' Bezler and Aleksandr Timofeev lived in Ukraine during USSR times, and for some times after its collapse lived in Russia, but they returned to Ukraine in late 90s. Every other person in the list was born in Ukraine, lived in Ukraine, and (for those with prior military experience) served in the army of Ukraine.
And presumably they made their own tanks, missiles, artillery barrels and so forth in their houses in the evenings.
And presumably they weren’t under the direct command of Russia.
The 8th CAA was reestablished in Rostov region at the end of 2016 with the 150th Motor Rifle Division and two corps in occupied parts of Donbas under its control.
https://www.csis.org/analysis/russian-and-ukrainian-spring-2021-war-scare
I wonder why it took the Ukrainian military so long to defeat a non state military that lacked any kind of state backing. It’s not really plausible that for 5 years the Ukrainian military fought locals armed with small arms. Maybe this will help.
https://www.uawire.org/muzhenko-there-are-more-than-30-000-russian-soldiers-in-the-donbas
I know you’re Russian Ardias and so your access to news is limited but use your head a little. Russian forces literally took part in the battle of Ilovaisk, massacring Ukrainians under the flag of a ceasefire agreement.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ilovaisk
Many regular army Russian soldiers were captured during the battle.
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Zurich15313 Posts
The Belgorod incursion is providing an just endless supply of irony
- Russian-speaking pro-Ukrainian separatists declare border regions liberated
- Little green men who bought their MRAPs in local hunting stores
- While Russia is cosplaying Normandy in Sevastopol a bunch of hooligans just roll over the border
- The first identified Freedom of Russia guy is ex-FSB
- The sweet trolling by Ukrainians who show themselves "concerned" about the unrest in the border region
- Russian APCs captured by Russians in Russia
- The Freedom of Russia flag flying over Moscow
- The Russian civilians who curse their governor because the local air shelter is locked
- Russians about to level Russian towns for a change
- To be continued
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On May 23 2023 04:13 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2023 03:49 zeo wrote:On May 23 2023 01:48 KwarK wrote:On May 23 2023 01:15 food wrote:On May 23 2023 01:08 [Phantom] wrote:
What does "Volunteer" means here? Basically a terrosits in favor of Ukraine atacking the Russia city from within? Technically, these are russian volunteers in favor of Russia without Putin. Not unlike russian-propped separatists in Donbass in 2014. The only difference is this isn't meant to become a permanent conflict zone, this is to confuse and stretch the enemy before the offensive. If they use Russian territory to flank russians in Ukraine, it would be absolutely amazing. There were materially no separatists in 2014. The Russian army has subsequently admitted it was literally just Russian troops, exactly as Ukraine asserted for years. I'm sorry but this is the most off-the-wall, pants-on-head take I've seen in years. Plausibly, you can claim that at some point the Russian state sent aid like military instructors, missiles, spare parts, before the August offensive in 2014 though how much and to what extent is still up for debate. All actors at the beginning basically shat on Moscow for not coming to their aid and leaving them to fight the 'new government' in Kiev with whatever they could scavenge from the military bases in the area, while Moscow only cared about their precious Crimea. The Ukrainian police, firefighters and army personal in the region openly refusing orders from Kiev, standing on the side of the protesters/people and forming their own parallel institutions were actually Russian troops born, raised and working in those areas for decades? This is what you are saying? You are claiming unironically that the entire anti-Maidan uprising was just Russian MoD personal? No locals, not one of the 45,000 troops the Donbass Republics had at the beginning of February 2022 was ever involved in 2014 or none of them were locals to the area or Ukraine as a whole? Not one Ukrainian passport? Like, I get the revisionism and propaganda stuffing since 2022. But there should be some limit when you want to write a QAnon tier conspiracy theory and your mind tells you 'wait, what the fuck did I just write?' This is genuinely less realistic than the posters on here that claimed that more civilians died in Mariupol than in Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. Is this actually being pushed as even remotely passable anywhere? You have to be extremally detached from any information from the area before 2022 and even then it sounds crazy. Read a comment about Artemovsk yesterday, something about 50 Ukrainian helicopters being shot down. I mean sure, quite a few were shot down, but 50? Thats like double the helicopters Ukraine had before the war. Again, not as off the wall as your comment but if you want to stuff propaganda down everybody's throat, at least put in minimal effort when you know its not just the peanut gallery reading. EDIT: On second thought its satire right? It was Russian troops. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28934213Show nested quote +Ten Russian soldiers captured in eastern Ukraine crossed the border "by accident", Russian military sources are quoted as saying.
Ukraine's security service said its military had captured the 10 Russian paratroopers near the village of Dzerkalne, about 50km (30 miles) south-east of the rebel-held city of Donetsk and about 20km from the Russian border.
Ukrainian military spokesman Andriy Lysenko said: "This wasn't a mistake, but a special mission they were carrying out."
A Ukrainian television report that carried the interviews with the men said they were from the 331st regiment of the 98th Svirsk airborne division.
Ten random soldiers getting lost near a border and detained without offering resistance months after hostilities started is proof that the entire rebellion was made up of contracted Russian soldiers? You are actually going with this? The same article where its written that over 500 Ukrainian soldiers randomly crossed to Russian territory at the same time (maybe because nobody really cared about the border or where it was until then).
Please, I want to read more. I'm genuinely curious to see where this leads.
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Russian Federation605 Posts
On May 23 2023 04:52 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2023 04:42 Ardias wrote:On May 23 2023 04:13 KwarK wrote:On May 23 2023 03:49 zeo wrote:On May 23 2023 01:48 KwarK wrote:On May 23 2023 01:15 food wrote:On May 23 2023 01:08 [Phantom] wrote:
What does "Volunteer" means here? Basically a terrosits in favor of Ukraine atacking the Russia city from within? Technically, these are russian volunteers in favor of Russia without Putin. Not unlike russian-propped separatists in Donbass in 2014. The only difference is this isn't meant to become a permanent conflict zone, this is to confuse and stretch the enemy before the offensive. If they use Russian territory to flank russians in Ukraine, it would be absolutely amazing. There were materially no separatists in 2014. The Russian army has subsequently admitted it was literally just Russian troops, exactly as Ukraine asserted for years. I'm sorry but this is the most off-the-wall, pants-on-head take I've seen in years. Plausibly, you can claim that at some point the Russian state sent aid like military instructors, missiles, spare parts, before the August offensive in 2014 though how much and to what extent is still up for debate. All actors at the beginning basically shat on Moscow for not coming to their aid and leaving them to fight the 'new government' in Kiev with whatever they could scavenge from the military bases in the area, while Moscow only cared about their precious Crimea. The Ukrainian police, firefighters and army personal in the region openly refusing orders from Kiev, standing on the side of the protesters/people and forming their own parallel institutions were actually Russian troops born, raised and working in those areas for decades? This is what you are saying? You are claiming unironically that the entire anti-Maidan uprising was just Russian MoD personal? No locals, not one of the 45,000 troops the Donbass Republics had at the beginning of February 2022 was ever involved in 2014 or none of them were locals to the area or Ukraine as a whole? Not one Ukrainian passport? Like, I get the revisionism and propaganda stuffing since 2022. But there should be some limit when you want to write a QAnon tier conspiracy theory and your mind tells you 'wait, what the fuck did I just write?' This is genuinely less realistic than the posters on here that claimed that more civilians died in Mariupol than in Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. Is this actually being pushed as even remotely passable anywhere? You have to be extremally detached from any information from the area before 2022 and even then it sounds crazy. Read a comment about Artemovsk yesterday, something about 50 Ukrainian helicopters being shot down. I mean sure, quite a few were shot down, but 50? Thats like double the helicopters Ukraine had before the war. Again, not as off the wall as your comment but if you want to stuff propaganda down everybody's throat, at least put in minimal effort when you know its not just the peanut gallery reading. EDIT: On second thought its satire right? It was Russian troops. Which one of those would be Donetsk' "Berkut" or "Alpha" units? Or elements of Ukrainian 25th Airborne brigade? Or where did people such as Aleksandr Khodakovsky, Artyom Zhoga, Vladimir Zhoga, Aleksandr Zakharchenko, Olga Kachura, Aleksandr Dikiy, Mikhail Tolstyh (aka "Givi"), Pavel Dremov, Aleksandr Bednov, Aleksey Mozgovoi, Pavel Gubarev were born and lived, and which citizenship they had? Of renowned field commanders of Donbass War only Igor Girkin (aka Strelkov), Arsen Pavlov (aka Motorola) and Nikolay Kozitsyn were completely Russian, and Igor' Bezler and Aleksandr Timofeev lived in Ukraine during USSR times, and for some times after its collapse lived in Russia, but they returned to Ukraine in late 90s. Every other person in the list was born in Ukraine, lived in Ukraine, and (for those with prior military experience) served in the army of Ukraine. And presumably they made their own tanks, missiles, artillery barrels and so forth in their houses in the evenings. And presumably they weren’t under the direct command of Russia. Show nested quote +The 8th CAA was reestablished in Rostov region at the end of 2016 with the 150th Motor Rifle Division and two corps in occupied parts of Donbas under its control. https://www.csis.org/analysis/russian-and-ukrainian-spring-2021-war-scareI wonder why it took the Ukrainian military so long to defeat a non state military that lacked any kind of state backing. It’s not really plausible that for 5 years the Ukrainian military fought locals armed with small arms. Maybe this will help. https://www.uawire.org/muzhenko-there-are-more-than-30-000-russian-soldiers-in-the-donbasI know you’re Russian Ardias and so your access to news is limited but use your head a little.
Said a person who, while trying to prove his statement, quote: "There were no separatists in 2014, only Russian troops" and then gives an article about late 2016.
With your wide-access range of sources you may probably find that most people in the list above were either dead or removed from commanding positions by that time. With their deaths being generally attributed to non-compliance with governance from Russian state.
Also if you were actually checking the war situation you would learn that until the late 2014 separatists had, well, a little trouble with "tanks, missiles and artillery barrels".
You could also wonder, how did other small wars on post-Soviet territory, or in former Yugoslavia were fought without wide external flow of armaments or developed domestic production.
Also you may wonder, who comprised the rank and file in these LDPR corps' and why mobilization before 21st September was issued only in their territory.
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United States42008 Posts
On May 23 2023 04:59 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2023 04:13 KwarK wrote:On May 23 2023 03:49 zeo wrote:On May 23 2023 01:48 KwarK wrote:On May 23 2023 01:15 food wrote:On May 23 2023 01:08 [Phantom] wrote:
What does "Volunteer" means here? Basically a terrosits in favor of Ukraine atacking the Russia city from within? Technically, these are russian volunteers in favor of Russia without Putin. Not unlike russian-propped separatists in Donbass in 2014. The only difference is this isn't meant to become a permanent conflict zone, this is to confuse and stretch the enemy before the offensive. If they use Russian territory to flank russians in Ukraine, it would be absolutely amazing. There were materially no separatists in 2014. The Russian army has subsequently admitted it was literally just Russian troops, exactly as Ukraine asserted for years. I'm sorry but this is the most off-the-wall, pants-on-head take I've seen in years. Plausibly, you can claim that at some point the Russian state sent aid like military instructors, missiles, spare parts, before the August offensive in 2014 though how much and to what extent is still up for debate. All actors at the beginning basically shat on Moscow for not coming to their aid and leaving them to fight the 'new government' in Kiev with whatever they could scavenge from the military bases in the area, while Moscow only cared about their precious Crimea. The Ukrainian police, firefighters and army personal in the region openly refusing orders from Kiev, standing on the side of the protesters/people and forming their own parallel institutions were actually Russian troops born, raised and working in those areas for decades? This is what you are saying? You are claiming unironically that the entire anti-Maidan uprising was just Russian MoD personal? No locals, not one of the 45,000 troops the Donbass Republics had at the beginning of February 2022 was ever involved in 2014 or none of them were locals to the area or Ukraine as a whole? Not one Ukrainian passport? Like, I get the revisionism and propaganda stuffing since 2022. But there should be some limit when you want to write a QAnon tier conspiracy theory and your mind tells you 'wait, what the fuck did I just write?' This is genuinely less realistic than the posters on here that claimed that more civilians died in Mariupol than in Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. Is this actually being pushed as even remotely passable anywhere? You have to be extremally detached from any information from the area before 2022 and even then it sounds crazy. Read a comment about Artemovsk yesterday, something about 50 Ukrainian helicopters being shot down. I mean sure, quite a few were shot down, but 50? Thats like double the helicopters Ukraine had before the war. Again, not as off the wall as your comment but if you want to stuff propaganda down everybody's throat, at least put in minimal effort when you know its not just the peanut gallery reading. EDIT: On second thought its satire right? It was Russian troops. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28934213Ten Russian soldiers captured in eastern Ukraine crossed the border "by accident", Russian military sources are quoted as saying.
Ukraine's security service said its military had captured the 10 Russian paratroopers near the village of Dzerkalne, about 50km (30 miles) south-east of the rebel-held city of Donetsk and about 20km from the Russian border.
Ukrainian military spokesman Andriy Lysenko said: "This wasn't a mistake, but a special mission they were carrying out."
A Ukrainian television report that carried the interviews with the men said they were from the 331st regiment of the 98th Svirsk airborne division. Ten random soldiers getting lost near a border and detained without offering resistance months after hostilities started is proof that the entire rebellion was made up of contracted Russian soldiers? You are actually going with this? The same article where its written that over 500 Ukrainian soldiers randomly crossed to Russian territory at the same time (maybe because nobody really cared about the border or where it was until then). Please, I want to read more. I'm genuinely curious to see where this leads.
Ten special forces soldiers patrolling the border somehow walking 20km into the neighboring country which, assuming they didn’t walk perpendicular to the border, would be a trip substantially longer than 20km. Presumably Russian special forces can’t read maps and presumably the Donbas is wholly uninhabited so there’s no way they could have noticed.
Russia claimed they surrendered peacefully, doesn’t mean they did.
Russia claimed Ukrainians do the same all the time, doesn’t mean they do, doesn’t mean the circumstances were the same. Doesn’t clarify whether the Ukrainians were so deep and whether there was a Ukrainian backed insurgency in Russia at the time.
You seem very confused by the BBC’s reporting style. They report the facts what happened and then reach out for involved parties for comment. The comments of the Russian military are not the facts of what happened, they are the contextual information for those who wish to know what Russia are claiming. The BBC is not reporting that the soldiers were lost, they are reporting that Russia says that the soldiers were lost.
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United States42008 Posts
On May 23 2023 05:05 Ardias wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2023 04:52 KwarK wrote:On May 23 2023 04:42 Ardias wrote:On May 23 2023 04:13 KwarK wrote:On May 23 2023 03:49 zeo wrote:On May 23 2023 01:48 KwarK wrote:On May 23 2023 01:15 food wrote:On May 23 2023 01:08 [Phantom] wrote:
What does "Volunteer" means here? Basically a terrosits in favor of Ukraine atacking the Russia city from within? Technically, these are russian volunteers in favor of Russia without Putin. Not unlike russian-propped separatists in Donbass in 2014. The only difference is this isn't meant to become a permanent conflict zone, this is to confuse and stretch the enemy before the offensive. If they use Russian territory to flank russians in Ukraine, it would be absolutely amazing. There were materially no separatists in 2014. The Russian army has subsequently admitted it was literally just Russian troops, exactly as Ukraine asserted for years. I'm sorry but this is the most off-the-wall, pants-on-head take I've seen in years. Plausibly, you can claim that at some point the Russian state sent aid like military instructors, missiles, spare parts, before the August offensive in 2014 though how much and to what extent is still up for debate. All actors at the beginning basically shat on Moscow for not coming to their aid and leaving them to fight the 'new government' in Kiev with whatever they could scavenge from the military bases in the area, while Moscow only cared about their precious Crimea. The Ukrainian police, firefighters and army personal in the region openly refusing orders from Kiev, standing on the side of the protesters/people and forming their own parallel institutions were actually Russian troops born, raised and working in those areas for decades? This is what you are saying? You are claiming unironically that the entire anti-Maidan uprising was just Russian MoD personal? No locals, not one of the 45,000 troops the Donbass Republics had at the beginning of February 2022 was ever involved in 2014 or none of them were locals to the area or Ukraine as a whole? Not one Ukrainian passport? Like, I get the revisionism and propaganda stuffing since 2022. But there should be some limit when you want to write a QAnon tier conspiracy theory and your mind tells you 'wait, what the fuck did I just write?' This is genuinely less realistic than the posters on here that claimed that more civilians died in Mariupol than in Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. Is this actually being pushed as even remotely passable anywhere? You have to be extremally detached from any information from the area before 2022 and even then it sounds crazy. Read a comment about Artemovsk yesterday, something about 50 Ukrainian helicopters being shot down. I mean sure, quite a few were shot down, but 50? Thats like double the helicopters Ukraine had before the war. Again, not as off the wall as your comment but if you want to stuff propaganda down everybody's throat, at least put in minimal effort when you know its not just the peanut gallery reading. EDIT: On second thought its satire right? It was Russian troops. Which one of those would be Donetsk' "Berkut" or "Alpha" units? Or elements of Ukrainian 25th Airborne brigade? Or where did people such as Aleksandr Khodakovsky, Artyom Zhoga, Vladimir Zhoga, Aleksandr Zakharchenko, Olga Kachura, Aleksandr Dikiy, Mikhail Tolstyh (aka "Givi"), Pavel Dremov, Aleksandr Bednov, Aleksey Mozgovoi, Pavel Gubarev were born and lived, and which citizenship they had? Of renowned field commanders of Donbass War only Igor Girkin (aka Strelkov), Arsen Pavlov (aka Motorola) and Nikolay Kozitsyn were completely Russian, and Igor' Bezler and Aleksandr Timofeev lived in Ukraine during USSR times, and for some times after its collapse lived in Russia, but they returned to Ukraine in late 90s. Every other person in the list was born in Ukraine, lived in Ukraine, and (for those with prior military experience) served in the army of Ukraine. And presumably they made their own tanks, missiles, artillery barrels and so forth in their houses in the evenings. And presumably they weren’t under the direct command of Russia. The 8th CAA was reestablished in Rostov region at the end of 2016 with the 150th Motor Rifle Division and two corps in occupied parts of Donbas under its control. https://www.csis.org/analysis/russian-and-ukrainian-spring-2021-war-scareI wonder why it took the Ukrainian military so long to defeat a non state military that lacked any kind of state backing. It’s not really plausible that for 5 years the Ukrainian military fought locals armed with small arms. Maybe this will help. https://www.uawire.org/muzhenko-there-are-more-than-30-000-russian-soldiers-in-the-donbasI know you’re Russian Ardias and so your access to news is limited but use your head a little. Said a person who, while trying to prove his statement, quote: "There were no separatists in 2014, only Russian troops" and then gives an article about late 2016. With your wide-access range of sources you may probably find that most people in the list above were either dead or removed from commanding positions by that time. With their deaths being generally attributed to non-compliance with governance from Russian state. Also if you were actually checking the war situation you would learn that until the late 2014 separatists had, well, a little trouble with "tanks, missiles and artillery barrels". You could also wonder, how did other small wars on post-Soviet territory, or in former Yugoslavia were fought without wide external flow of armaments or developed domestic production. Also you may wonder, who comprised the rank and file in these LDPR corps' and why mobilization before 21st September was issued only in their territory.
Are you from the timeline where Russia didn’t subsequently openly invade Ukraine in 2022? Because if not I’m somewhat confused by the doublethink. Do you disbelieve that they would send Russian troops into Ukraine or do you just disbelieve in 2014? What do you believe about the Russian army regulars literally captured by the Ukrainian military in 2014?
I don’t understand how you can both see the lies of your government today and be blind to them a few years earlier. Putin swore in January 2022 that he had no plans to invade and he swore in the years preceding that there were no Russian troops there, despite everyone involved asserting that there were, including the Russian troops themselves.
It’d make more sense if you still denied that there were any Russian troops in Ukraine. At least that would be consistent. What you’re doing is being willfully blind to all the evidence to the contrary because you’re putting your faith in a man you know to lie about this exact subject.
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I think both of you are partially wrong. While the separatists were in large part made up of Ukrainian citizens from Donbas (predominantly ethnic Russians), they were taking orders directly from Moscow. For that there is ample evidence. At the same time, the separatists had considerable help from the Russian military. At first, mostly in terms of manpower. According to DPR's Alexander Borodai, Russia provided some 50k "volunteers" in the first five months of the conflict. From August 2014, Russia also started to send heavy equipment.
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On May 23 2023 05:06 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2023 04:59 zeo wrote:On May 23 2023 04:13 KwarK wrote:On May 23 2023 03:49 zeo wrote:On May 23 2023 01:48 KwarK wrote:On May 23 2023 01:15 food wrote:On May 23 2023 01:08 [Phantom] wrote:
What does "Volunteer" means here? Basically a terrosits in favor of Ukraine atacking the Russia city from within? Technically, these are russian volunteers in favor of Russia without Putin. Not unlike russian-propped separatists in Donbass in 2014. The only difference is this isn't meant to become a permanent conflict zone, this is to confuse and stretch the enemy before the offensive. If they use Russian territory to flank russians in Ukraine, it would be absolutely amazing. There were materially no separatists in 2014. The Russian army has subsequently admitted it was literally just Russian troops, exactly as Ukraine asserted for years. I'm sorry but this is the most off-the-wall, pants-on-head take I've seen in years. Plausibly, you can claim that at some point the Russian state sent aid like military instructors, missiles, spare parts, before the August offensive in 2014 though how much and to what extent is still up for debate. All actors at the beginning basically shat on Moscow for not coming to their aid and leaving them to fight the 'new government' in Kiev with whatever they could scavenge from the military bases in the area, while Moscow only cared about their precious Crimea. The Ukrainian police, firefighters and army personal in the region openly refusing orders from Kiev, standing on the side of the protesters/people and forming their own parallel institutions were actually Russian troops born, raised and working in those areas for decades? This is what you are saying? You are claiming unironically that the entire anti-Maidan uprising was just Russian MoD personal? No locals, not one of the 45,000 troops the Donbass Republics had at the beginning of February 2022 was ever involved in 2014 or none of them were locals to the area or Ukraine as a whole? Not one Ukrainian passport? Like, I get the revisionism and propaganda stuffing since 2022. But there should be some limit when you want to write a QAnon tier conspiracy theory and your mind tells you 'wait, what the fuck did I just write?' This is genuinely less realistic than the posters on here that claimed that more civilians died in Mariupol than in Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. Is this actually being pushed as even remotely passable anywhere? You have to be extremally detached from any information from the area before 2022 and even then it sounds crazy. Read a comment about Artemovsk yesterday, something about 50 Ukrainian helicopters being shot down. I mean sure, quite a few were shot down, but 50? Thats like double the helicopters Ukraine had before the war. Again, not as off the wall as your comment but if you want to stuff propaganda down everybody's throat, at least put in minimal effort when you know its not just the peanut gallery reading. EDIT: On second thought its satire right? It was Russian troops. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28934213Ten Russian soldiers captured in eastern Ukraine crossed the border "by accident", Russian military sources are quoted as saying.
Ukraine's security service said its military had captured the 10 Russian paratroopers near the village of Dzerkalne, about 50km (30 miles) south-east of the rebel-held city of Donetsk and about 20km from the Russian border.
Ukrainian military spokesman Andriy Lysenko said: "This wasn't a mistake, but a special mission they were carrying out."
A Ukrainian television report that carried the interviews with the men said they were from the 331st regiment of the 98th Svirsk airborne division. Ten random soldiers getting lost near a border and detained without offering resistance months after hostilities started is proof that the entire rebellion was made up of contracted Russian soldiers? You are actually going with this? The same article where its written that over 500 Ukrainian soldiers randomly crossed to Russian territory at the same time (maybe because nobody really cared about the border or where it was until then). Please, I want to read more. I'm genuinely curious to see where this leads. Ten special forces soldiers patrolling the border somehow walking 20km into the neighboring country which, assuming they didn’t walk perpendicular to the border, would be a trip substantially longer than 20km. Presumably Russian special forces can’t read maps and presumably the Donbas is wholly uninhabited so there’s no way they could have noticed. Russia claimed they surrendered peacefully, doesn’t mean they did. Russia claimed Ukrainians do the same all the time, doesn’t mean they do, doesn’t mean the circumstances were the same. Doesn’t clarify whether the Ukrainians were so deep and whether there was a Ukrainian backed insurgency in Russia at the time. You seem very confused by the BBC’s reporting style. They report the facts what happened and then reach out for involved parties for comment. The comments of the Russian military are not the facts of what happened, they are the contextual information for those who wish to know what Russia are claiming. The BBC is not reporting that the soldiers were lost, they are reporting that Russia says that the soldiers were lost.
Your straws are grasping at straws with this one. In no way did you address your statement that the entire rebellion was made up of Russian soldiers.
I read your answer to Ardias above, if you had even the most surface level knowledge of the conflict you would know that the defecting Ukrainian army and police forces looted the military bases for everything they had and captured vast amounts of MLRS launchers, armored vehicles and shoulder held anti-air weapons. Which is why I said you could plausibly say that Russia smuggled missiles and spare parts to the rebels but the serial numbers on the heavy vehicles were all Ukrainian. Not Russian.
Your first article, source: CSIS. The first thing I do when reading a Center for such and such article is check who is paying for it: The Center for Strategic and International Studies CSIS lists major funding from defense contractors such as Northrop Grumman, Lockheed Martin, Boeing, General Dynamics, Raytheon Company and General Atomics. Significant funding has come from the governments of the United States, Japan, Taiwan, and the United Arab Emirates.
And in the article itself: This publication was funded by the Russia Strategic Initiative, U.S. European Command in Stuttgart, Germany. Opinions, arguments, viewpoints, and conclusions expressed in this work do not represent those of RSI, U.S. EUCOM, the Department of Defense, or the U.S. government.
OK, can't be that biased against Russia can it, the Russia Strategic Initiative is only a U.S. Department of Defense organization ... errrm.. Just lets look at who wrote the article. Mykola Bielieskov is a research fellow with the National Institute for Strategic Studies under the President of Ukraine. Formerly he worked for the Ukrainian Institute of World Policy.
Oh boy. Yeah... After that you give a source that is literally a UA funded propaganda outlet citing a UA general talking about 2018 and wild theories about 2014-15. You top it off with a Wikipedia article, a Wikipedia article on a politically divisive subject. I suggest you take a way back time machine to see what was written in that article in 2014. You'd be surprised.
Anyone, anyone reading what you are writing can see that you have no evidence whatsoever to back up your claims, and when you are confronted your knee-jerk reaction is to keep doubling down and digging the hole deeper for yourself.
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United States42008 Posts
Found a court case regarding whether the contractor responsible for providing rations to the Russian army occupying the Donbas was guilty of bribery.
https://amp.dw.com/en/russian-court-says-countrys-soldiers-stationed-in-ukraine/a-60153034
The court did not contest whether he provided rations to the Russian forces occupying the Donbas, as specified in the contract he was awarded. When this was pointed out the Kremlin clarified that the contract must be in error because everyone knows that there are no Russian troops in the Donbas and therefore there could not possibly be a Russian military rations contract to supply them.
Dmitry Peskov, the Kremlin's spokesman, said Thursday there was a "mistake on the part of those who wrote the text" and that any food deliveries to the region would consist of humanitarian aid.
Peskov added the statement was an error "because it is not possible. There are no armed forces of the Russian Federation on the territory of the self-proclaimed republics at all."
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On May 23 2023 05:34 maybenexttime wrote:I think both of you are partially wrong. While the separatists were in large part made up of Ukrainian citizens from Donbas (predominantly ethnic Russians), they were taking orders directly from Moscow. For that there is ample evidence. At the same time, the separatists had considerable help from the Russian military. At first, mostly in terms of manpower. According to DPR's Alexander Borodai, Russia provided some 50k "volunteers" in the first five months of the conflict. From August 2014, Russia also started to send heavy equipment.
Thats a misquote in a Wikipedia article, the source of the quote unsurprisingly leads to a broken Yahoo news article about Borodai starting up a support network in Russia for all of the volunteers, everyone that fought on the side of the Donbass Republics was considered a volunteer. And the number was estimated at around 50k, the number varies depending on the criterium you have for what roles were played in the war but max 50k. The number of volunteers from Russia without Ukrainian citizenship by the end was estimated at around 3-4000 this info coming from the head of one of the Republics
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United States42008 Posts
On May 23 2023 06:00 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2023 05:34 maybenexttime wrote:I think both of you are partially wrong. While the separatists were in large part made up of Ukrainian citizens from Donbas (predominantly ethnic Russians), they were taking orders directly from Moscow. For that there is ample evidence. At the same time, the separatists had considerable help from the Russian military. At first, mostly in terms of manpower. According to DPR's Alexander Borodai, Russia provided some 50k "volunteers" in the first five months of the conflict. From August 2014, Russia also started to send heavy equipment. Thats a misquote in a Wikipedia article, the source of the quote unsurprisingly leads to a broken Yahoo news article about Borodai starting up a support network in Russia for all of the volunteers, everyone that fought on the side of the Donbass Republics was considered a volunteer. And the number was estimated at around 50k, the number varies depending on the criterium you have for what roles were played in the war but max 50k. The number of volunteers from Russia without Ukrainian citizenship by the end was estimated at around 3-4000 this info coming from the head of one of the Republics
Original article, since you’re concerned about the yahoo one being archived.
https://tass.ru/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/2215105
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Although Kwark allowed himself some leeway in claiming those forces were strictly russian, the fact is that the "uprising" was not possible without direct russian involvement. As we all know, Girkin famously stated that his group's incursion started it. It doesn't really make sense to argue much further - an FSB agent meddled in other country's affairs with the purpose of starting a separatist movement and eventually annexing the territory. This much is known.
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On May 23 2023 05:40 KwarK wrote:Found a court case regarding whether the contractor responsible for providing rations to the Russian army occupying the Donbas was guilty of bribery. https://amp.dw.com/en/russian-court-says-countrys-soldiers-stationed-in-ukraine/a-60153034The court did not contest whether he provided rations to the Russian forces occupying the Donbas, as specified in the contract he was awarded. When this was pointed out the Kremlin clarified that the contract must be in error because everyone knows that there are no Russian troops in the Donbas and therefore there could not possibly be a Russian military rations contract to supply them. Show nested quote +Dmitry Peskov, the Kremlin's spokesman, said Thursday there was a "mistake on the part of those who wrote the text" and that any food deliveries to the region would consist of humanitarian aid.
Peskov added the statement was an error "because it is not possible. There are no armed forces of the Russian Federation on the territory of the self-proclaimed republics at all."
Russian forces were most likely located inside the Donbass Republics at the end of 2021. We all know what happened a few months later. What does this have to do with 2014? Did Russia invade Belarus too in 2014?
If I came on here and said something like 'jet fuel can't melt steel beams', I'd at least bring up some articles about jet fuel. Not talk about why the Moon landings are fake.
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United States42008 Posts
On May 23 2023 06:18 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2023 05:40 KwarK wrote:Found a court case regarding whether the contractor responsible for providing rations to the Russian army occupying the Donbas was guilty of bribery. https://amp.dw.com/en/russian-court-says-countrys-soldiers-stationed-in-ukraine/a-60153034The court did not contest whether he provided rations to the Russian forces occupying the Donbas, as specified in the contract he was awarded. When this was pointed out the Kremlin clarified that the contract must be in error because everyone knows that there are no Russian troops in the Donbas and therefore there could not possibly be a Russian military rations contract to supply them. Dmitry Peskov, the Kremlin's spokesman, said Thursday there was a "mistake on the part of those who wrote the text" and that any food deliveries to the region would consist of humanitarian aid.
Peskov added the statement was an error "because it is not possible. There are no armed forces of the Russian Federation on the territory of the self-proclaimed republics at all." Russian forces were most likely located inside the Donbass Republics at the end of 2021. We all know what happened a few months later. What does this have to do with 2014? Did Russia invade Belarus too in 2014? If I came on here and said something like 'jet fuel can't melt steel beams', I'd at least bring up some articles about jet fuel. Not talk about why the Moon landings are fake.
That court case was in 2019, not 2021, about a contract that was performed before that. You should take the time to read the articles, not just look at the date it was published.
But I’m glad that you’re no longer contesting that the “insurgency” before 2019 was just Russian troops and that the Russian government was lying about it. It’s odd that you’re on board with Russia occupying the Donbas and lying about it in the years before 2019 but are absolutely certain that they were telling the truth in 2014 when they said that no Russian troops were there.
Do you have any explanation for the extremely well documented participation of Russian army units in battles in 2014 or the Russian army regulars who were taken as POWs in those battles?
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United States42008 Posts
I'm going to attempt a metaphor.
In 2014 your high school bully moves into your house, declares that one of the rooms belongs to him now, and refuses to leave.
Also in 2014 you repeatedly catch him inside of your wife. He makes a variety of excuses like that he was lost, that it could have just been someone who looks like him, that he didn't know if was your wife, and so forth.
In 2015 your wife has twins, they look a lot like him. He insists that they're not his.
From 2015 onwards he pays child support for the twins. He does not explain why he's paying child support.
From 2015 onwards he continually hangs out with the twins and you can't help noticing that your wife gave them his last name. He's also still regularly caught with your wife though he insists that they're just friends.
In 2021 you find a draft of adoption papers showing that he's getting ready to adopt the twins. You question him and he explains that you didn't find them because he has absolutely no intention of adopting the twins.
In 2022 he attempts to kick you out of your house and proceeds to adopt the twins. Also your wife admits to cheating on you regularly with him since 2016 and lying about it.
Is it possible that he might be their father?
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On May 23 2023 06:21 JimmiC wrote:
@zeo and Ardias if the Freedom for Russia Legion sets up a base in Russia and keeps fighting off the Russian army with equipment and man power from UA and NATO, are these just separatists?
They sacrificed over 100 men, a few tanks and armored vehicles in a PR campaign to shift focus away from Artemovsk. All followed with concentrated stuffing of networks with premade fake news, videos ect, even going so far as to allegedly show civilians being executed while sitting in their cars. Who knows the point of it all, just another thing that will be swept under the rug by next week like it never happened. Usually they just cross the border, kill a few civilians and then run back, something must have gone wrong for them? If this is their response to the fall of Artemovsk its not looking so good is it.
I mean, if Al-Qaida can be on your side in Syria and you have no problem with that why can't these neo-nazi larpers be there too. Its incredibly juvenile to think of this as some epic troll or whatever, like sending people to die with xD emotes.
On May 23 2023 06:26 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2023 06:18 zeo wrote:On May 23 2023 05:40 KwarK wrote:Found a court case regarding whether the contractor responsible for providing rations to the Russian army occupying the Donbas was guilty of bribery. https://amp.dw.com/en/russian-court-says-countrys-soldiers-stationed-in-ukraine/a-60153034The court did not contest whether he provided rations to the Russian forces occupying the Donbas, as specified in the contract he was awarded. When this was pointed out the Kremlin clarified that the contract must be in error because everyone knows that there are no Russian troops in the Donbas and therefore there could not possibly be a Russian military rations contract to supply them. Dmitry Peskov, the Kremlin's spokesman, said Thursday there was a "mistake on the part of those who wrote the text" and that any food deliveries to the region would consist of humanitarian aid.
Peskov added the statement was an error "because it is not possible. There are no armed forces of the Russian Federation on the territory of the self-proclaimed republics at all." Russian forces were most likely located inside the Donbass Republics at the end of 2021. We all know what happened a few months later. What does this have to do with 2014? Did Russia invade Belarus too in 2014? If I came on here and said something like 'jet fuel can't melt steel beams', I'd at least bring up some articles about jet fuel. Not talk about why the Moon landings are fake. That court case was in 2019, not 2021, about a contract that was performed before that. You should take the time to read the articles, not just look at the date it was published. But I’m glad that you’re no longer contesting that the “insurgency” before 2019 was just Russian troops and that the Russian government was lying about it. It’s odd that you’re on board with Russia occupying the Donbas and lying about it in the years before 2019 but are absolutely certain that they were telling the truth in 2014 when they said that no Russian troops were there. Do you have any explanation for the extremely well documented participation of Russian army units in battles in 2014 or the Russian army regulars who were taken as POWs in those battles?
2019 is still not 2014. I don't know why you are having so much trouble with dates
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On May 23 2023 06:56 KwarK wrote:
I'm going to attempt a metaphor.
In 2014 your high school bully moves into your house, declares that one of the rooms belongs to him now, and refuses to leave.
Also in 2014 you repeatedly catch him inside of your wife. He makes a variety of excuses like that he was lost, that it could have just been someone who looks like him, that he didn't know if was your wife, and so forth.
In 2015 your wife has twins, they look a lot like him. He insists that they're not his.
From 2015 onwards he pays child support for the twins. He does not explain why he's paying child support.
From 2015 onwards he continually hangs out with the twins and you can't help noticing that your wife gave them his last name. He's also still regularly caught with your wife though he insists that they're just friends.
In 2021 you find a draft of adoption papers showing that he's getting ready to adopt the twins. You question him and he explains that you didn't find them because he has absolutely no intention of adopting the twins.
In 2022 he attempts to kick you out of your house and proceeds to adopt the twins. Also your wife admits to cheating on you regularly with him since 2016 and lying about it.
Is it possible that he might be their father?
Mate, I think you should have just divorced your wife in 2014.
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United States42008 Posts
On May 23 2023 07:02 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2023 06:56 KwarK wrote:
I'm going to attempt a metaphor.
In 2014 your high school bully moves into your house, declares that one of the rooms belongs to him now, and refuses to leave.
Also in 2014 you repeatedly catch him inside of your wife. He makes a variety of excuses like that he was lost, that it could have just been someone who looks like him, that he didn't know if was your wife, and so forth.
In 2015 your wife has twins, they look a lot like him. He insists that they're not his.
From 2015 onwards he pays child support for the twins. He does not explain why he's paying child support.
From 2015 onwards he continually hangs out with the twins and you can't help noticing that your wife gave them his last name. He's also still regularly caught with your wife though he insists that they're just friends.
In 2021 you find a draft of adoption papers showing that he's getting ready to adopt the twins. You question him and he explains that you didn't find them because he has absolutely no intention of adopting the twins.
In 2022 he attempts to kick you out of your house and proceeds to adopt the twins. Also your wife admits to cheating on you regularly with him since 2016 and lying about it.
Is it possible that he might be their father? Mate, I think you should have just divorced your wife in 2014.
You’re the one who still believes in 2023 that there was nothing going on in 2014. I’m the one who is arguing that if you know he was lying from 2016 onwards and you know he was paying child support all this time and you know he literally adopted the kids in 2022 and you literally caught him in 2014 then he was probably lying in 2014.
You’re going “no, no, no, I know he adopted them and I agree he was supporting them and sure, maybe he was caught a few times in 2014, but I still believe him that he wasn’t there in 2014”. You’re that guy. Don’t be that guy.
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EPT
