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On October 12 2022 05:48 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2022 05:32 a_ch wrote:On October 12 2022 05:28 Gorsameth wrote:On October 12 2022 05:23 a_ch wrote:On October 12 2022 03:58 Magic Powers wrote:On October 12 2022 03:26 RolleMcKnolle wrote:On October 12 2022 01:58 JimmiC wrote:On October 12 2022 01:55 RolleMcKnolle wrote:On October 12 2022 01:31 Mohdoo wrote:
Starting to think the West is just slow dripping enough support for Ukraine such that Russia never gives up and just slowly kills themselves. I am about 99% sure that is exactly the plan. The governments dont care much about Ukrainians, they care about removing a geopolitical rival by giving him a second Afghanistan. Everything else is Propaganda. What facts lead you to such a certain conclusion? Well first of all it is pretty commonsense for geopolitical powers to act exactly like that. This is an imperialistic war fought by an imperialistic country losing control over its heart area. The other main Imperialists interested in that area are mainly EU (Germany) and USA, which have been slowly winning that fight. So to continue winning by dimishing the power of an opponent who has recently gained ground by being successful in Syria and kinda Lybia they are trying to bleed them out. I don't know why they shouldn't do it. Secondly according to this https://www.foreignaffairs.com/russian-federation/world-putin-wants-fiona-hill-angela-stentthere was a Peace agreement reached by both parties in April. But suddenly there is a suprise visit by Boris Johnson in April promising weapons and money and the whole agreement is nulled. If the survival of Ukrainians was the focus why not allow a peace agreed to by both parties? Because of this: "He ordered his “special military operation” because he believes that it is Russia’s divine right to rule Ukraine, to wipe out the country’s national identity, and to integrate its people into a Greater Russia." Russia is a sorry place to live in. Standard of living there is decades behind. And Putin wanted that for Ukraine. -what sort of living standards are "decades behind" in Russia? And which countries you compare here? All of them. -that's sort of a poor answer. And my sister lives in Munich for 7+ years already, so I have enough information for making comparisons - which I believe cannot be said about you Outside of large metropolitan areas like Moscow or SPB, Russia is massively behind.
I want to mention that you are getting distracted into a sideshow.
Standards of living in Russia don't matter.
The single core important fact is that the people of Ukraine don't want to be in Russia, and Russia wants to force them to be in Russia through the use of weapons.
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Russian Federation240 Posts
On October 12 2022 05:48 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2022 05:32 a_ch wrote:On October 12 2022 05:28 Gorsameth wrote:On October 12 2022 05:23 a_ch wrote:On October 12 2022 03:58 Magic Powers wrote:On October 12 2022 03:26 RolleMcKnolle wrote:On October 12 2022 01:58 JimmiC wrote:On October 12 2022 01:55 RolleMcKnolle wrote:On October 12 2022 01:31 Mohdoo wrote:
Starting to think the West is just slow dripping enough support for Ukraine such that Russia never gives up and just slowly kills themselves. I am about 99% sure that is exactly the plan. The governments dont care much about Ukrainians, they care about removing a geopolitical rival by giving him a second Afghanistan. Everything else is Propaganda. What facts lead you to such a certain conclusion? Well first of all it is pretty commonsense for geopolitical powers to act exactly like that. This is an imperialistic war fought by an imperialistic country losing control over its heart area. The other main Imperialists interested in that area are mainly EU (Germany) and USA, which have been slowly winning that fight. So to continue winning by dimishing the power of an opponent who has recently gained ground by being successful in Syria and kinda Lybia they are trying to bleed them out. I don't know why they shouldn't do it. Secondly according to this https://www.foreignaffairs.com/russian-federation/world-putin-wants-fiona-hill-angela-stentthere was a Peace agreement reached by both parties in April. But suddenly there is a suprise visit by Boris Johnson in April promising weapons and money and the whole agreement is nulled. If the survival of Ukrainians was the focus why not allow a peace agreed to by both parties? Because of this: "He ordered his “special military operation” because he believes that it is Russia’s divine right to rule Ukraine, to wipe out the country’s national identity, and to integrate its people into a Greater Russia." Russia is a sorry place to live in. Standard of living there is decades behind. And Putin wanted that for Ukraine. -what sort of living standards are "decades behind" in Russia? And which countries you compare here? All of them. -that's sort of a poor answer. And my sister lives in Munich for 7+ years already, so I have enough information for making comparisons - which I believe cannot be said about you Outside of large metropolitan areas like Moscow or SPB, Russia is massively behind.
Most people in Russia live in large metropolitan areas (this is both due to Stalin's urbanization policy in the past, and migration for education and better jobs currently), which includes regional centers like Kazan, Novosibirsk or Nizhny Novgorod - and those cities are quite comparable to SPb in terms of wages, services and entertainment
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Russian Federation618 Posts
On October 12 2022 05:28 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2022 05:23 a_ch wrote:On October 12 2022 03:58 Magic Powers wrote:On October 12 2022 03:26 RolleMcKnolle wrote:On October 12 2022 01:58 JimmiC wrote:On October 12 2022 01:55 RolleMcKnolle wrote:On October 12 2022 01:31 Mohdoo wrote:
Starting to think the West is just slow dripping enough support for Ukraine such that Russia never gives up and just slowly kills themselves. I am about 99% sure that is exactly the plan. The governments dont care much about Ukrainians, they care about removing a geopolitical rival by giving him a second Afghanistan. Everything else is Propaganda. What facts lead you to such a certain conclusion? Well first of all it is pretty commonsense for geopolitical powers to act exactly like that. This is an imperialistic war fought by an imperialistic country losing control over its heart area. The other main Imperialists interested in that area are mainly EU (Germany) and USA, which have been slowly winning that fight. So to continue winning by dimishing the power of an opponent who has recently gained ground by being successful in Syria and kinda Lybia they are trying to bleed them out. I don't know why they shouldn't do it. Secondly according to this https://www.foreignaffairs.com/russian-federation/world-putin-wants-fiona-hill-angela-stentthere was a Peace agreement reached by both parties in April. But suddenly there is a suprise visit by Boris Johnson in April promising weapons and money and the whole agreement is nulled. If the survival of Ukrainians was the focus why not allow a peace agreed to by both parties? Because of this: "He ordered his “special military operation” because he believes that it is Russia’s divine right to rule Ukraine, to wipe out the country’s national identity, and to integrate its people into a Greater Russia." Russia is a sorry place to live in. Standard of living there is decades behind. And Putin wanted that for Ukraine. -what sort of living standards are "decades behind" in Russia? And which countries you compare here? All of them.
I hear a lot of that stuff over the past few months without any explanation why it is so, and I think statements like that require elaboration.
For the reference, I live in Arkhangelsk, which is in the North, just couple of degrees below Arctic Circle, logistically quite far from the Central Russia. City of 350k people, so quite average. It's regional capital, but the region itself is somewhere in the middle in terms of GDP per capita in Russia (29th as of 2018)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_federal_subjects_of_Russia_by_GDP_per_capita
I wonder now, what exactly am I lacking here in terms of quality of life?
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On October 12 2022 06:05 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2022 05:48 maybenexttime wrote:On October 12 2022 05:32 a_ch wrote:On October 12 2022 05:28 Gorsameth wrote:On October 12 2022 05:23 a_ch wrote:On October 12 2022 03:58 Magic Powers wrote:On October 12 2022 03:26 RolleMcKnolle wrote:On October 12 2022 01:58 JimmiC wrote:On October 12 2022 01:55 RolleMcKnolle wrote:On October 12 2022 01:31 Mohdoo wrote:
Starting to think the West is just slow dripping enough support for Ukraine such that Russia never gives up and just slowly kills themselves. I am about 99% sure that is exactly the plan. The governments dont care much about Ukrainians, they care about removing a geopolitical rival by giving him a second Afghanistan. Everything else is Propaganda. What facts lead you to such a certain conclusion? Well first of all it is pretty commonsense for geopolitical powers to act exactly like that. This is an imperialistic war fought by an imperialistic country losing control over its heart area. The other main Imperialists interested in that area are mainly EU (Germany) and USA, which have been slowly winning that fight. So to continue winning by dimishing the power of an opponent who has recently gained ground by being successful in Syria and kinda Lybia they are trying to bleed them out. I don't know why they shouldn't do it. Secondly according to this https://www.foreignaffairs.com/russian-federation/world-putin-wants-fiona-hill-angela-stentthere was a Peace agreement reached by both parties in April. But suddenly there is a suprise visit by Boris Johnson in April promising weapons and money and the whole agreement is nulled. If the survival of Ukrainians was the focus why not allow a peace agreed to by both parties? Because of this: "He ordered his “special military operation” because he believes that it is Russia’s divine right to rule Ukraine, to wipe out the country’s national identity, and to integrate its people into a Greater Russia." Russia is a sorry place to live in. Standard of living there is decades behind. And Putin wanted that for Ukraine. -what sort of living standards are "decades behind" in Russia? And which countries you compare here? All of them. -that's sort of a poor answer. And my sister lives in Munich for 7+ years already, so I have enough information for making comparisons - which I believe cannot be said about you Outside of large metropolitan areas like Moscow or SPB, Russia is massively behind. I want to mention that you are getting distracted into a sideshow. Standards of living in Russia don't matter. The single core important fact is that the people of Ukraine don't want to be in Russia, and Russia wants to force them to be in Russia through the use of weapons.
Exactly.
Apart from that it seems pretty stupid to ruin your own economy (Germany) just to see your supposed geopolitical rival (who you are also quite dependent on) suffer. This imperialism argument is incredibly dumb.
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Russian Federation240 Posts
On October 12 2022 06:05 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2022 05:48 maybenexttime wrote:On October 12 2022 05:32 a_ch wrote:On October 12 2022 05:28 Gorsameth wrote:On October 12 2022 05:23 a_ch wrote:On October 12 2022 03:58 Magic Powers wrote:On October 12 2022 03:26 RolleMcKnolle wrote:On October 12 2022 01:58 JimmiC wrote:On October 12 2022 01:55 RolleMcKnolle wrote:On October 12 2022 01:31 Mohdoo wrote:
Starting to think the West is just slow dripping enough support for Ukraine such that Russia never gives up and just slowly kills themselves. I am about 99% sure that is exactly the plan. The governments dont care much about Ukrainians, they care about removing a geopolitical rival by giving him a second Afghanistan. Everything else is Propaganda. What facts lead you to such a certain conclusion? Well first of all it is pretty commonsense for geopolitical powers to act exactly like that. This is an imperialistic war fought by an imperialistic country losing control over its heart area. The other main Imperialists interested in that area are mainly EU (Germany) and USA, which have been slowly winning that fight. So to continue winning by dimishing the power of an opponent who has recently gained ground by being successful in Syria and kinda Lybia they are trying to bleed them out. I don't know why they shouldn't do it. Secondly according to this https://www.foreignaffairs.com/russian-federation/world-putin-wants-fiona-hill-angela-stentthere was a Peace agreement reached by both parties in April. But suddenly there is a suprise visit by Boris Johnson in April promising weapons and money and the whole agreement is nulled. If the survival of Ukrainians was the focus why not allow a peace agreed to by both parties? Because of this: "He ordered his “special military operation” because he believes that it is Russia’s divine right to rule Ukraine, to wipe out the country’s national identity, and to integrate its people into a Greater Russia." Russia is a sorry place to live in. Standard of living there is decades behind. And Putin wanted that for Ukraine. -what sort of living standards are "decades behind" in Russia? And which countries you compare here? All of them. -that's sort of a poor answer. And my sister lives in Munich for 7+ years already, so I have enough information for making comparisons - which I believe cannot be said about you Outside of large metropolitan areas like Moscow or SPB, Russia is massively behind. I want to mention that you are getting distracted into a sideshow. Standards of living in Russia don't matter. The single core important fact is that the people of Ukraine don't want to be in Russia, and Russia wants to force them to be in Russia through the use of weapons.
-this is an extremely difficult question. The people of LDPR also didn't want to be "ukrainized" forcefully. There was a solution to that problem (the Minsk agreements) - in giving them some sort of autonomy, while still a part of Ukraine. But for some reasons the Ukrainian government has never proceeded with it
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On October 12 2022 06:14 justanothertownie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2022 06:05 Simberto wrote:On October 12 2022 05:48 maybenexttime wrote:On October 12 2022 05:32 a_ch wrote:On October 12 2022 05:28 Gorsameth wrote:On October 12 2022 05:23 a_ch wrote:On October 12 2022 03:58 Magic Powers wrote:On October 12 2022 03:26 RolleMcKnolle wrote:On October 12 2022 01:58 JimmiC wrote:On October 12 2022 01:55 RolleMcKnolle wrote:
[quote]
I am about 99% sure that is exactly the plan. The governments dont care much about Ukrainians, they care about removing a geopolitical rival by giving him a second Afghanistan. Everything else is Propaganda. What facts lead you to such a certain conclusion? Well first of all it is pretty commonsense for geopolitical powers to act exactly like that. This is an imperialistic war fought by an imperialistic country losing control over its heart area. The other main Imperialists interested in that area are mainly EU (Germany) and USA, which have been slowly winning that fight. So to continue winning by dimishing the power of an opponent who has recently gained ground by being successful in Syria and kinda Lybia they are trying to bleed them out. I don't know why they shouldn't do it. Secondly according to this https://www.foreignaffairs.com/russian-federation/world-putin-wants-fiona-hill-angela-stentthere was a Peace agreement reached by both parties in April. But suddenly there is a suprise visit by Boris Johnson in April promising weapons and money and the whole agreement is nulled. If the survival of Ukrainians was the focus why not allow a peace agreed to by both parties? Because of this: "He ordered his “special military operation” because he believes that it is Russia’s divine right to rule Ukraine, to wipe out the country’s national identity, and to integrate its people into a Greater Russia." Russia is a sorry place to live in. Standard of living there is decades behind. And Putin wanted that for Ukraine. -what sort of living standards are "decades behind" in Russia? And which countries you compare here? All of them. -that's sort of a poor answer. And my sister lives in Munich for 7+ years already, so I have enough information for making comparisons - which I believe cannot be said about you Outside of large metropolitan areas like Moscow or SPB, Russia is massively behind. I want to mention that you are getting distracted into a sideshow. Standards of living in Russia don't matter. The single core important fact is that the people of Ukraine don't want to be in Russia, and Russia wants to force them to be in Russia through the use of weapons. Exactly. Apart from that it seems pretty stupid to ruin your own economy (Germany) just to see your supposed geopolitical rival (who you are also quite dependent on) suffer. This imperialism argument is incredibly dumb.
I for one enjoyed the theory. The whole 'germany is being russias lapdog' thing had run its course so it was time for another joke.
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On October 12 2022 06:24 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2022 06:05 Simberto wrote:On October 12 2022 05:48 maybenexttime wrote:On October 12 2022 05:32 a_ch wrote:On October 12 2022 05:28 Gorsameth wrote:On October 12 2022 05:23 a_ch wrote:On October 12 2022 03:58 Magic Powers wrote:On October 12 2022 03:26 RolleMcKnolle wrote:On October 12 2022 01:58 JimmiC wrote:On October 12 2022 01:55 RolleMcKnolle wrote:
[quote]
I am about 99% sure that is exactly the plan. The governments dont care much about Ukrainians, they care about removing a geopolitical rival by giving him a second Afghanistan. Everything else is Propaganda. What facts lead you to such a certain conclusion? Well first of all it is pretty commonsense for geopolitical powers to act exactly like that. This is an imperialistic war fought by an imperialistic country losing control over its heart area. The other main Imperialists interested in that area are mainly EU (Germany) and USA, which have been slowly winning that fight. So to continue winning by dimishing the power of an opponent who has recently gained ground by being successful in Syria and kinda Lybia they are trying to bleed them out. I don't know why they shouldn't do it. Secondly according to this https://www.foreignaffairs.com/russian-federation/world-putin-wants-fiona-hill-angela-stentthere was a Peace agreement reached by both parties in April. But suddenly there is a suprise visit by Boris Johnson in April promising weapons and money and the whole agreement is nulled. If the survival of Ukrainians was the focus why not allow a peace agreed to by both parties? Because of this: "He ordered his “special military operation” because he believes that it is Russia’s divine right to rule Ukraine, to wipe out the country’s national identity, and to integrate its people into a Greater Russia." Russia is a sorry place to live in. Standard of living there is decades behind. And Putin wanted that for Ukraine. -what sort of living standards are "decades behind" in Russia? And which countries you compare here? All of them. -that's sort of a poor answer. And my sister lives in Munich for 7+ years already, so I have enough information for making comparisons - which I believe cannot be said about you Outside of large metropolitan areas like Moscow or SPB, Russia is massively behind. I want to mention that you are getting distracted into a sideshow. Standards of living in Russia don't matter. The single core important fact is that the people of Ukraine don't want to be in Russia, and Russia wants to force them to be in Russia through the use of weapons. -this is an extremely difficult question. The people of LDPR also didn't want to be "ukrainized" forcefully. There was a solution to that problem (the Minsk agreements) - in giving them some sort of autonomy, while still a part of Ukraine. But for some reasons the Ukrainian government has never proceeded with it
No one was "ukrainized" forcefully. That sounds like Russian propaganda bullshit. What actually happened is that Russia just send in "totally not russian army" forces and basically "totally not annexed" two Ukrainian provinces. After already forcefully annexing Crimea shortly before.
And even that blatant bullshit was mostly accepted, because it seemed as if there is nothing anyone could do against it, and peace seemed more important.
But that was not enough for the psychotic mass murderer Putin. And thus, instead of accepting this setup, he decided to invade all of Ukraine, to force them to also be Russian. Since he had already gotten away with it twice, he thought he could keep on doing this shit forever, and it would never fail.
Any sane person should be against wars of aggression. A world without wars of aggression is infinitely better than one with them.
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Russia's GDP in 2020 was 1483 billion USD, Ukraine's was 155.6 billion USD. So Russia had 9.5x more monetary wealth with only a ~3x larger population.
Russia's GDP per capita in 2020 was 10 126 USD. Ukraine's was 3276 USD. That's 3x more for Russia.
From a look at these numbers, it seems that things in Russia are fair, right?
Well, here's the problem with such a superficial analysis: Russia's poverty rate in 2020 was 12.1%. Ukraine's poverty rate was 2.5%. An exceptional number of people in Russia is living far below international living standards, making the economy extremely polarized in favor of a few top earners. In Ukraine you're likely to get the things you need regardless of your income level. Not so in Russia.
You can't reason your way out of this. No, the Russian people do not make the same money as those in other countries, they're horribly underpaid.
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Russian Federation240 Posts
On October 12 2022 06:36 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2022 06:24 a_ch wrote:On October 12 2022 06:05 Simberto wrote:On October 12 2022 05:48 maybenexttime wrote:On October 12 2022 05:32 a_ch wrote:On October 12 2022 05:28 Gorsameth wrote:On October 12 2022 05:23 a_ch wrote:On October 12 2022 03:58 Magic Powers wrote:On October 12 2022 03:26 RolleMcKnolle wrote:On October 12 2022 01:58 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
What facts lead you to such a certain conclusion? Well first of all it is pretty commonsense for geopolitical powers to act exactly like that. This is an imperialistic war fought by an imperialistic country losing control over its heart area. The other main Imperialists interested in that area are mainly EU (Germany) and USA, which have been slowly winning that fight. So to continue winning by dimishing the power of an opponent who has recently gained ground by being successful in Syria and kinda Lybia they are trying to bleed them out. I don't know why they shouldn't do it. Secondly according to this https://www.foreignaffairs.com/russian-federation/world-putin-wants-fiona-hill-angela-stentthere was a Peace agreement reached by both parties in April. But suddenly there is a suprise visit by Boris Johnson in April promising weapons and money and the whole agreement is nulled. If the survival of Ukrainians was the focus why not allow a peace agreed to by both parties? Because of this: "He ordered his “special military operation” because he believes that it is Russia’s divine right to rule Ukraine, to wipe out the country’s national identity, and to integrate its people into a Greater Russia." Russia is a sorry place to live in. Standard of living there is decades behind. And Putin wanted that for Ukraine. -what sort of living standards are "decades behind" in Russia? And which countries you compare here? All of them. -that's sort of a poor answer. And my sister lives in Munich for 7+ years already, so I have enough information for making comparisons - which I believe cannot be said about you Outside of large metropolitan areas like Moscow or SPB, Russia is massively behind. I want to mention that you are getting distracted into a sideshow. Standards of living in Russia don't matter. The single core important fact is that the people of Ukraine don't want to be in Russia, and Russia wants to force them to be in Russia through the use of weapons. -this is an extremely difficult question. The people of LDPR also didn't want to be "ukrainized" forcefully. There was a solution to that problem (the Minsk agreements) - in giving them some sort of autonomy, while still a part of Ukraine. But for some reasons the Ukrainian government has never proceeded with it No one was "ukrainized" forcefully. That sounds like Russian propaganda bullshit. What actually happened is that Russia just send in "totally not russian army" forces and basically "totally not annexed" two Ukrainian provinces. After already forcefully annexing Crimea shortly before. And even that blatant bullshit was mostly accepted, because it seemed as if there is nothing anyone could do against it, and peace seemed more important. But that was not enough for the psychotic mass murderer Putin. And thus, instead of accepting this setup, he decided to invade all of Ukraine, to force them to also be Russian. Since he had already gotten away with it twice, he thought he could keep on doing this shit forever, and it would never fail. Any sane person should be against wars of aggression. A world without wars of aggression is infinitely better than one with them.
No, it is you who consume too much propaganda - so you cannot reconstruct a logical and consistent line of events without blaming some "psychotic mass murderers" or coming up with another fairy-tale explanation.
The Russian forces in Crimea appeared long after the civil riots in Donetsk, Luhansk, Mariupol, Kharkiv, Odessa - which started after the Maidan revolt, and especially after the abolishment of the status of Russian language as the 2nd official state language (which was the mother tongue for ~80% of country's population at the moment).
I personally know people who fled from the eastern regions of Ukraine at that time in fear of conflicts with Ukrainian nationalists.
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United States44448 Posts
On October 12 2022 06:55 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2022 06:36 Simberto wrote:On October 12 2022 06:24 a_ch wrote:On October 12 2022 06:05 Simberto wrote:On October 12 2022 05:48 maybenexttime wrote:On October 12 2022 05:32 a_ch wrote:On October 12 2022 05:28 Gorsameth wrote:On October 12 2022 05:23 a_ch wrote:On October 12 2022 03:58 Magic Powers wrote:On October 12 2022 03:26 RolleMcKnolle wrote:[quote] Well first of all it is pretty commonsense for geopolitical powers to act exactly like that. This is an imperialistic war fought by an imperialistic country losing control over its heart area. The other main Imperialists interested in that area are mainly EU (Germany) and USA, which have been slowly winning that fight. So to continue winning by dimishing the power of an opponent who has recently gained ground by being successful in Syria and kinda Lybia they are trying to bleed them out. I don't know why they shouldn't do it. Secondly according to this https://www.foreignaffairs.com/russian-federation/world-putin-wants-fiona-hill-angela-stentthere was a Peace agreement reached by both parties in April. But suddenly there is a suprise visit by Boris Johnson in April promising weapons and money and the whole agreement is nulled. If the survival of Ukrainians was the focus why not allow a peace agreed to by both parties? Because of this: "He ordered his “special military operation” because he believes that it is Russia’s divine right to rule Ukraine, to wipe out the country’s national identity, and to integrate its people into a Greater Russia." Russia is a sorry place to live in. Standard of living there is decades behind. And Putin wanted that for Ukraine. -what sort of living standards are "decades behind" in Russia? And which countries you compare here? All of them. -that's sort of a poor answer. And my sister lives in Munich for 7+ years already, so I have enough information for making comparisons - which I believe cannot be said about you Outside of large metropolitan areas like Moscow or SPB, Russia is massively behind. I want to mention that you are getting distracted into a sideshow. Standards of living in Russia don't matter. The single core important fact is that the people of Ukraine don't want to be in Russia, and Russia wants to force them to be in Russia through the use of weapons. -this is an extremely difficult question. The people of LDPR also didn't want to be "ukrainized" forcefully. There was a solution to that problem (the Minsk agreements) - in giving them some sort of autonomy, while still a part of Ukraine. But for some reasons the Ukrainian government has never proceeded with it No one was "ukrainized" forcefully. That sounds like Russian propaganda bullshit. What actually happened is that Russia just send in "totally not russian army" forces and basically "totally not annexed" two Ukrainian provinces. After already forcefully annexing Crimea shortly before. And even that blatant bullshit was mostly accepted, because it seemed as if there is nothing anyone could do against it, and peace seemed more important. But that was not enough for the psychotic mass murderer Putin. And thus, instead of accepting this setup, he decided to invade all of Ukraine, to force them to also be Russian. Since he had already gotten away with it twice, he thought he could keep on doing this shit forever, and it would never fail. Any sane person should be against wars of aggression. A world without wars of aggression is infinitely better than one with them. No, it is you who consume too much propaganda - so you cannot reconstruct a logical and consistent line of events without blaming some "psychotic mass murderers" or coming up with another fairy-tale explanation. The Russian forces in Crimea appeared long after the civil riots in Donetsk, Luhansk, Mariupol, Kharkiv, Odessa - which started after the Maidan revolt, and especially after the abolishment of the status of Russian language as the 2nd official state language (which was the mother tongue for ~80% of country's population at the moment). I personally know people who fled from the eastern regions of Ukraine at that time in fear of conflicts with Ukrainian nationalists.
They didn’t though.
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Russian Federation618 Posts
On October 12 2022 06:38 Magic Powers wrote:
Russia's GDP in 2020 was 1483 billion USD, Ukraine's was 155.6 billion USD. So Russia had 9.5x more monetary wealth with only a ~3x larger population.
Russia's GDP per capita in 2020 was 10 126 USD. Ukraine's was 3276 USD. That's 3x more for Russia.
From a look at these numbers, it seems that things in Russia are fair, right?
Well, here's the problem with such a superficial analysis: Russia's poverty rate in 2020 was 12.1%. Ukraine's poverty rate was 2.5%. An exceptional number of people in Russia is living far below international living standards, making the economy extremely polarized in favor of a few top earners. In Ukraine you're likely to get the things you need regardless of your income level. Not so in Russia.
You can't reason your way out of this. No, the Russian people do not make the same money as those in other countries, they're horribly underpaid.
It just shows how not reading into numbers gets you the wrong assumptions. And I guess I know where did your numbers come from. Let's check them out.
So, for starters, you say that UA poverty rate is 2,5%, RU - 12,1%
Here is World Bank report on poverty in Russia:
https://databankfiles.worldbank.org/data/download/poverty/987B9C90-CB9F-4D93-AE8C-750588BF00QA/AM2021/Global_POVEQ_RUS.pdf
"The official poverty rate in Russia has been slowly declining in recent years: from 12.6 percent in 2018, 12.3 percent in 2019 to 12.1 percent in 2020"
Here is your number. Bear in mind, it says "official poverty rate". However the next sentence says:
"At the same time, the poverty rate at US$5.5 (revised 2011 PPP) was estimated by World Bank Staff at 3.7 percent, 3.2 percent and 4.3 percent, respectively"
Different accounting system, different percentages. But what of Ukraine? Here is World Bank report on UA:
https://databankfiles.worldbank.org/data/download/poverty/987B9C90-CB9F-4D93-AE8C-750588BF00QA/AM2020/Global_POVEQ_UKR.pdf
"Poverty as measured by the upper middle-income poverty line of US$5.5 per day in 2011 PPP amounted to 2.5 percent in 2019, down from 3.4 percent in 2018 and 5.6 percent in 2016"
Here is your number again. But in a different measurment system. If we take the same measurment system (via PPP estimation) - it will be 2,5% Ukraine poverty vs 4,3% Russia. Much closer number.
But then take note of the next sentence of UA report:
"Based on the national threshold, poverty is substantially higher, with 23 percent of the population living below the actual Subsistence Minimum (SM) in 2019, but also down from an estimated 35 percent in 2017."
Note - "below Subsistence Minimum". That is the same borderline that defines official poverty line in Russia:
https://rosstat.gov.ru/folder/313/document/168756
"Until 2021, as a criterion for the poverty line, the subsistence minimum was used, based on the cost of the consumer basket at the corresponding point in time, as well as mandatory payments and fees."
So if we consider poverty as "being below official Subsistence Minimum" - then it will be 12,1% Russia against 23% Ukraine. If we consider poverty as being below certain PPP amount as of World Bank estimations - it will be 4,3% Russia against 2,5% Ukraine. These numbers are more complicated than you may consider at first.
And before you ask "how may people live in such conditions" - it's very simple. Just don't work officially. Anecdotal evidence, but still - from my family of five only I have official salary. But only my mother is in fact housewife, other people are still working on different jobs. But by official statistics they would all be considered "unemployed" and hence "below poverty line" (though they earn enough for the living). The same thing is true for Ukraine as well.
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Russian Federation240 Posts
On October 12 2022 06:38 Magic Powers wrote:
Russia's GDP in 2020 was 1483 billion USD, Ukraine's was 155.6 billion USD. So Russia had 9.5x more monetary wealth with only a ~3x larger population.
Russia's GDP per capita in 2020 was 10 126 USD. Ukraine's was 3276 USD. That's 3x more for Russia.
From a look at these numbers, it seems that things in Russia are fair, right?
Well, here's the problem with such a superficial analysis: Russia's poverty rate in 2020 was 12.1%. Ukraine's poverty rate was 2.5%. An exceptional number of people in Russia is living far below international living standards, making the economy extremely polarized in favor of a few top earners. In Ukraine you're likely to get the things you need regardless of your income level. Not so in Russia.
You can't reason your way out of this. No, the Russian people do not make the same money as those in other countries, they're horribly underpaid.
The definition of the poverty rate is the share of population earning below one half of the nation's median. In Russia that would be currently around 1/2 * 35k rub/month = 280 $/month. In Ukraine that would be (for year 2019) 1/2*7500 UAH = 150$/month (with the current exchange it is less than 100$/month)
So the difference comes from just from a higher income inequality in Russia.
The difference in GDP pc should have told you that the idea of worse living standard in Russia is a just a propagada trick, as this value is a good proxy to average wages
edit: forgot "one half" of the median in definition, not in calculations
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On October 12 2022 06:55 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2022 06:36 Simberto wrote:On October 12 2022 06:24 a_ch wrote:On October 12 2022 06:05 Simberto wrote:On October 12 2022 05:48 maybenexttime wrote:On October 12 2022 05:32 a_ch wrote:On October 12 2022 05:28 Gorsameth wrote:On October 12 2022 05:23 a_ch wrote:On October 12 2022 03:58 Magic Powers wrote:On October 12 2022 03:26 RolleMcKnolle wrote:[quote] Well first of all it is pretty commonsense for geopolitical powers to act exactly like that. This is an imperialistic war fought by an imperialistic country losing control over its heart area. The other main Imperialists interested in that area are mainly EU (Germany) and USA, which have been slowly winning that fight. So to continue winning by dimishing the power of an opponent who has recently gained ground by being successful in Syria and kinda Lybia they are trying to bleed them out. I don't know why they shouldn't do it. Secondly according to this https://www.foreignaffairs.com/russian-federation/world-putin-wants-fiona-hill-angela-stentthere was a Peace agreement reached by both parties in April. But suddenly there is a suprise visit by Boris Johnson in April promising weapons and money and the whole agreement is nulled. If the survival of Ukrainians was the focus why not allow a peace agreed to by both parties? Because of this: "He ordered his “special military operation” because he believes that it is Russia’s divine right to rule Ukraine, to wipe out the country’s national identity, and to integrate its people into a Greater Russia." Russia is a sorry place to live in. Standard of living there is decades behind. And Putin wanted that for Ukraine. -what sort of living standards are "decades behind" in Russia? And which countries you compare here? All of them. -that's sort of a poor answer. And my sister lives in Munich for 7+ years already, so I have enough information for making comparisons - which I believe cannot be said about you Outside of large metropolitan areas like Moscow or SPB, Russia is massively behind. I want to mention that you are getting distracted into a sideshow. Standards of living in Russia don't matter. The single core important fact is that the people of Ukraine don't want to be in Russia, and Russia wants to force them to be in Russia through the use of weapons. -this is an extremely difficult question. The people of LDPR also didn't want to be "ukrainized" forcefully. There was a solution to that problem (the Minsk agreements) - in giving them some sort of autonomy, while still a part of Ukraine. But for some reasons the Ukrainian government has never proceeded with it No one was "ukrainized" forcefully. That sounds like Russian propaganda bullshit. What actually happened is that Russia just send in "totally not russian army" forces and basically "totally not annexed" two Ukrainian provinces. After already forcefully annexing Crimea shortly before. And even that blatant bullshit was mostly accepted, because it seemed as if there is nothing anyone could do against it, and peace seemed more important. But that was not enough for the psychotic mass murderer Putin. And thus, instead of accepting this setup, he decided to invade all of Ukraine, to force them to also be Russian. Since he had already gotten away with it twice, he thought he could keep on doing this shit forever, and it would never fail. Any sane person should be against wars of aggression. A world without wars of aggression is infinitely better than one with them. No, it is you who consume too much propaganda - so you cannot reconstruct a logical and consistent line of events without blaming some "psychotic mass murderers" or coming up with another fairy-tale explanation. The Russian forces in Crimea appeared long after the civil riots in Donetsk, Luhansk, Mariupol, Kharkiv, Odessa - which started after the Maidan revolt, and especially after the abolishment of the status of Russian language as the 2nd official state language (which was the mother tongue for ~80% of country's population at the moment). I personally know people who fled from the eastern regions of Ukraine at that time in fear of conflicts with Ukrainian nationalists.
Reality will hit you very hard if you keep living in your fantasy world.
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Russian Federation240 Posts
On October 12 2022 07:24 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2022 06:55 a_ch wrote:On October 12 2022 06:36 Simberto wrote:On October 12 2022 06:24 a_ch wrote:On October 12 2022 06:05 Simberto wrote:On October 12 2022 05:48 maybenexttime wrote:On October 12 2022 05:32 a_ch wrote:On October 12 2022 05:28 Gorsameth wrote:On October 12 2022 05:23 a_ch wrote:On October 12 2022 03:58 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
Because of this: "He ordered his “special military operation” because he believes that it is Russia’s divine right to rule Ukraine, to wipe out the country’s national identity, and to integrate its people into a Greater Russia."
Russia is a sorry place to live in. Standard of living there is decades behind. And Putin wanted that for Ukraine. -what sort of living standards are "decades behind" in Russia? And which countries you compare here? All of them. -that's sort of a poor answer. And my sister lives in Munich for 7+ years already, so I have enough information for making comparisons - which I believe cannot be said about you Outside of large metropolitan areas like Moscow or SPB, Russia is massively behind. I want to mention that you are getting distracted into a sideshow. Standards of living in Russia don't matter. The single core important fact is that the people of Ukraine don't want to be in Russia, and Russia wants to force them to be in Russia through the use of weapons. -this is an extremely difficult question. The people of LDPR also didn't want to be "ukrainized" forcefully. There was a solution to that problem (the Minsk agreements) - in giving them some sort of autonomy, while still a part of Ukraine. But for some reasons the Ukrainian government has never proceeded with it No one was "ukrainized" forcefully. That sounds like Russian propaganda bullshit. What actually happened is that Russia just send in "totally not russian army" forces and basically "totally not annexed" two Ukrainian provinces. After already forcefully annexing Crimea shortly before. And even that blatant bullshit was mostly accepted, because it seemed as if there is nothing anyone could do against it, and peace seemed more important. But that was not enough for the psychotic mass murderer Putin. And thus, instead of accepting this setup, he decided to invade all of Ukraine, to force them to also be Russian. Since he had already gotten away with it twice, he thought he could keep on doing this shit forever, and it would never fail. Any sane person should be against wars of aggression. A world without wars of aggression is infinitely better than one with them. No, it is you who consume too much propaganda - so you cannot reconstruct a logical and consistent line of events without blaming some "psychotic mass murderers" or coming up with another fairy-tale explanation. The Russian forces in Crimea appeared long after the civil riots in Donetsk, Luhansk, Mariupol, Kharkiv, Odessa - which started after the Maidan revolt, and especially after the abolishment of the status of Russian language as the 2nd official state language (which was the mother tongue for ~80% of country's population at the moment). I personally know people who fled from the eastern regions of Ukraine at that time in fear of conflicts with Ukrainian nationalists. Reality will hit you very hard if you keep living in your fantasy world.
Before this war I couldn't fathom that Western media could be so fake and biased. Cannot blame people not directly involved for not having enough will to dig up the details though
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On October 12 2022 07:39 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2022 07:24 maybenexttime wrote:On October 12 2022 06:55 a_ch wrote:On October 12 2022 06:36 Simberto wrote:On October 12 2022 06:24 a_ch wrote:On October 12 2022 06:05 Simberto wrote:On October 12 2022 05:48 maybenexttime wrote:On October 12 2022 05:32 a_ch wrote:On October 12 2022 05:28 Gorsameth wrote:On October 12 2022 05:23 a_ch wrote:
[quote]
-what sort of living standards are "decades behind" in Russia? And which countries you compare here? All of them. -that's sort of a poor answer. And my sister lives in Munich for 7+ years already, so I have enough information for making comparisons - which I believe cannot be said about you Outside of large metropolitan areas like Moscow or SPB, Russia is massively behind. I want to mention that you are getting distracted into a sideshow. Standards of living in Russia don't matter. The single core important fact is that the people of Ukraine don't want to be in Russia, and Russia wants to force them to be in Russia through the use of weapons. -this is an extremely difficult question. The people of LDPR also didn't want to be "ukrainized" forcefully. There was a solution to that problem (the Minsk agreements) - in giving them some sort of autonomy, while still a part of Ukraine. But for some reasons the Ukrainian government has never proceeded with it No one was "ukrainized" forcefully. That sounds like Russian propaganda bullshit. What actually happened is that Russia just send in "totally not russian army" forces and basically "totally not annexed" two Ukrainian provinces. After already forcefully annexing Crimea shortly before. And even that blatant bullshit was mostly accepted, because it seemed as if there is nothing anyone could do against it, and peace seemed more important. But that was not enough for the psychotic mass murderer Putin. And thus, instead of accepting this setup, he decided to invade all of Ukraine, to force them to also be Russian. Since he had already gotten away with it twice, he thought he could keep on doing this shit forever, and it would never fail. Any sane person should be against wars of aggression. A world without wars of aggression is infinitely better than one with them. No, it is you who consume too much propaganda - so you cannot reconstruct a logical and consistent line of events without blaming some "psychotic mass murderers" or coming up with another fairy-tale explanation. The Russian forces in Crimea appeared long after the civil riots in Donetsk, Luhansk, Mariupol, Kharkiv, Odessa - which started after the Maidan revolt, and especially after the abolishment of the status of Russian language as the 2nd official state language (which was the mother tongue for ~80% of country's population at the moment). I personally know people who fled from the eastern regions of Ukraine at that time in fear of conflicts with Ukrainian nationalists. Reality will hit you very hard if you keep living in your fantasy world. Before this war I couldn't fathom that Western media could be so fake and biased. Cannot blame people not directly involved for not having enough will to dig up the details though
Just wait until you find out about our video games books movies and tv shows about Russia.
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On October 12 2022 07:39 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2022 07:24 maybenexttime wrote:On October 12 2022 06:55 a_ch wrote:On October 12 2022 06:36 Simberto wrote:On October 12 2022 06:24 a_ch wrote:On October 12 2022 06:05 Simberto wrote:On October 12 2022 05:48 maybenexttime wrote:On October 12 2022 05:32 a_ch wrote:On October 12 2022 05:28 Gorsameth wrote:On October 12 2022 05:23 a_ch wrote:
[quote]
-what sort of living standards are "decades behind" in Russia? And which countries you compare here? All of them. -that's sort of a poor answer. And my sister lives in Munich for 7+ years already, so I have enough information for making comparisons - which I believe cannot be said about you Outside of large metropolitan areas like Moscow or SPB, Russia is massively behind. I want to mention that you are getting distracted into a sideshow. Standards of living in Russia don't matter. The single core important fact is that the people of Ukraine don't want to be in Russia, and Russia wants to force them to be in Russia through the use of weapons. -this is an extremely difficult question. The people of LDPR also didn't want to be "ukrainized" forcefully. There was a solution to that problem (the Minsk agreements) - in giving them some sort of autonomy, while still a part of Ukraine. But for some reasons the Ukrainian government has never proceeded with it No one was "ukrainized" forcefully. That sounds like Russian propaganda bullshit. What actually happened is that Russia just send in "totally not russian army" forces and basically "totally not annexed" two Ukrainian provinces. After already forcefully annexing Crimea shortly before. And even that blatant bullshit was mostly accepted, because it seemed as if there is nothing anyone could do against it, and peace seemed more important. But that was not enough for the psychotic mass murderer Putin. And thus, instead of accepting this setup, he decided to invade all of Ukraine, to force them to also be Russian. Since he had already gotten away with it twice, he thought he could keep on doing this shit forever, and it would never fail. Any sane person should be against wars of aggression. A world without wars of aggression is infinitely better than one with them. No, it is you who consume too much propaganda - so you cannot reconstruct a logical and consistent line of events without blaming some "psychotic mass murderers" or coming up with another fairy-tale explanation. The Russian forces in Crimea appeared long after the civil riots in Donetsk, Luhansk, Mariupol, Kharkiv, Odessa - which started after the Maidan revolt, and especially after the abolishment of the status of Russian language as the 2nd official state language (which was the mother tongue for ~80% of country's population at the moment). I personally know people who fled from the eastern regions of Ukraine at that time in fear of conflicts with Ukrainian nationalists. Reality will hit you very hard if you keep living in your fantasy world. Before this war I couldn't fathom that Western media could be so fake and biased. Cannot blame people not directly involved for not having enough will to dig up the details though
Disregarding the exact % and levels of poverty, I think it's preposterous when you're the biggest country in the world, with a relatively small population, you have the most natural resources of any country and you've been exporting these for 50 years, yet you can't manage to increase average wealth above average European levels. And then you want to expand into land with people who don't want to be part of your country to force them to the same standard? Some self-reflection would be in place.
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United States44448 Posts
On October 12 2022 07:39 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2022 07:24 maybenexttime wrote:On October 12 2022 06:55 a_ch wrote:On October 12 2022 06:36 Simberto wrote:On October 12 2022 06:24 a_ch wrote:On October 12 2022 06:05 Simberto wrote:On October 12 2022 05:48 maybenexttime wrote:On October 12 2022 05:32 a_ch wrote:On October 12 2022 05:28 Gorsameth wrote:On October 12 2022 05:23 a_ch wrote:
[quote]
-what sort of living standards are "decades behind" in Russia? And which countries you compare here? All of them. -that's sort of a poor answer. And my sister lives in Munich for 7+ years already, so I have enough information for making comparisons - which I believe cannot be said about you Outside of large metropolitan areas like Moscow or SPB, Russia is massively behind. I want to mention that you are getting distracted into a sideshow. Standards of living in Russia don't matter. The single core important fact is that the people of Ukraine don't want to be in Russia, and Russia wants to force them to be in Russia through the use of weapons. -this is an extremely difficult question. The people of LDPR also didn't want to be "ukrainized" forcefully. There was a solution to that problem (the Minsk agreements) - in giving them some sort of autonomy, while still a part of Ukraine. But for some reasons the Ukrainian government has never proceeded with it No one was "ukrainized" forcefully. That sounds like Russian propaganda bullshit. What actually happened is that Russia just send in "totally not russian army" forces and basically "totally not annexed" two Ukrainian provinces. After already forcefully annexing Crimea shortly before. And even that blatant bullshit was mostly accepted, because it seemed as if there is nothing anyone could do against it, and peace seemed more important. But that was not enough for the psychotic mass murderer Putin. And thus, instead of accepting this setup, he decided to invade all of Ukraine, to force them to also be Russian. Since he had already gotten away with it twice, he thought he could keep on doing this shit forever, and it would never fail. Any sane person should be against wars of aggression. A world without wars of aggression is infinitely better than one with them. No, it is you who consume too much propaganda - so you cannot reconstruct a logical and consistent line of events without blaming some "psychotic mass murderers" or coming up with another fairy-tale explanation. The Russian forces in Crimea appeared long after the civil riots in Donetsk, Luhansk, Mariupol, Kharkiv, Odessa - which started after the Maidan revolt, and especially after the abolishment of the status of Russian language as the 2nd official state language (which was the mother tongue for ~80% of country's population at the moment). I personally know people who fled from the eastern regions of Ukraine at that time in fear of conflicts with Ukrainian nationalists. Reality will hit you very hard if you keep living in your fantasy world. Before this war I couldn't fathom that Western media could be so fake and biased. Cannot blame people not directly involved for not having enough will to dig up the details though
Your state media isn’t even consistent with your state media. This latest round of missile attacks on civilian targets is both a Ukrainian false flag and the wholly justified Russian response to the bridge strike.
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On October 12 2022 11:27 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2022 07:39 a_ch wrote:On October 12 2022 07:24 maybenexttime wrote:On October 12 2022 06:55 a_ch wrote:On October 12 2022 06:36 Simberto wrote:On October 12 2022 06:24 a_ch wrote:On October 12 2022 06:05 Simberto wrote:On October 12 2022 05:48 maybenexttime wrote:On October 12 2022 05:32 a_ch wrote:On October 12 2022 05:28 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]All of them.
-that's sort of a poor answer. And my sister lives in Munich for 7+ years already, so I have enough information for making comparisons - which I believe cannot be said about you Outside of large metropolitan areas like Moscow or SPB, Russia is massively behind. I want to mention that you are getting distracted into a sideshow. Standards of living in Russia don't matter. The single core important fact is that the people of Ukraine don't want to be in Russia, and Russia wants to force them to be in Russia through the use of weapons. -this is an extremely difficult question. The people of LDPR also didn't want to be "ukrainized" forcefully. There was a solution to that problem (the Minsk agreements) - in giving them some sort of autonomy, while still a part of Ukraine. But for some reasons the Ukrainian government has never proceeded with it No one was "ukrainized" forcefully. That sounds like Russian propaganda bullshit. What actually happened is that Russia just send in "totally not russian army" forces and basically "totally not annexed" two Ukrainian provinces. After already forcefully annexing Crimea shortly before. And even that blatant bullshit was mostly accepted, because it seemed as if there is nothing anyone could do against it, and peace seemed more important. But that was not enough for the psychotic mass murderer Putin. And thus, instead of accepting this setup, he decided to invade all of Ukraine, to force them to also be Russian. Since he had already gotten away with it twice, he thought he could keep on doing this shit forever, and it would never fail. Any sane person should be against wars of aggression. A world without wars of aggression is infinitely better than one with them. No, it is you who consume too much propaganda - so you cannot reconstruct a logical and consistent line of events without blaming some "psychotic mass murderers" or coming up with another fairy-tale explanation. The Russian forces in Crimea appeared long after the civil riots in Donetsk, Luhansk, Mariupol, Kharkiv, Odessa - which started after the Maidan revolt, and especially after the abolishment of the status of Russian language as the 2nd official state language (which was the mother tongue for ~80% of country's population at the moment). I personally know people who fled from the eastern regions of Ukraine at that time in fear of conflicts with Ukrainian nationalists. Reality will hit you very hard if you keep living in your fantasy world. Before this war I couldn't fathom that Western media could be so fake and biased. Cannot blame people not directly involved for not having enough will to dig up the details though Your state media isn’t even consistent with your state media. This latest round of missile attacks on civilian targets is both a Ukrainian false flag and the wholly justified Russian response to the bridge strike.
As I understand it that is the purpose. Report as many alternative views in the "correct" direction as possible. This has a few purposes as a propaganda strategy.
1. You will always find something to reinforce your existing opinion if you are anywhere near what the government wants.
2. It is hard to find the truth. If you find well written news articles that claim opposite things the burden on you to find the truth is much higher. This effort is hard to maintain for most people, making them depoliticized.
2. is the main reason I have seen argued for the Russian propaganda. Make people not care because it is too much effort. Then the government can go on ruling. A similar thing happens in China where people don't really care about the government, it is what it is and you move on with life.
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The Lord giveth and the lord taketh away. Elon Musk limits Starlink use in frontline regions:
Report on the effects:
Some of the outages led to a “catastrophic” loss of communication in recent weeks, said one senior Ukrainian government official with direct knowledge of the issue. Many were reported as soldiers breached the frontline into Russian-controlled territory and some during pitched battles, the official said, speaking under the condition of anonymity.
https://www.ft.com/content/9a7b922b-2435-4ac7-acdb-0ec9a6dc8397
Report on the reasoning:
Musk, speaking to Bremmer, said that he had been asked by Ukraine's defense ministry to activate Starlink in Crimea, which was invaded and illegally annexed by Russia in 2014. Per Bremmer, Musk "refused given the potential for escalation."
https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-blocks-starlink-in-crimea-amid-nuclear-fears-report-2022-10
So, as nice as Starlink is for the AFU - what do you do when you are dependent on an absolute nutcase?
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78144
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EPT
