Russo-Ukrainian War Thread - Page 276

On October 12 2022 09:33 Sermokala wrote:
Just wait until you find out about our video games books movies and tv shows about Russia.

On October 12 2022 09:47 aseq wrote:
Disregarding the exact % and levels of poverty, I think it's preposterous when you're the biggest country in the world, with a relatively small population, you have the most natural resources of any country and you've been exporting these for 50 years, yet you can't manage to increase average wealth above average European levels. And then you want to expand into land with people who don't want to be part of your country to force them to the same standard? Some self-reflection would be in place.

On October 12 2022 15:47 schaf wrote:
The Lord giveth and the lord taketh away. Elon Musk limits Starlink use in frontline regions:
Report on the effects:

https://www.ft.com/content/9a7b922b-2435-4ac7-acdb-0ec9a6dc8397

On October 12 2022 16:39 Artesimo wrote:


I thought the outages on the frontline were because Starlink was deactivated in russian occupied territory and ukraine was simply advancing too fast. If that is not the case I really hope these outages are because russia has figured out a way to jam it locally. I really don't want to wake up to some news that Musk aligns with russia now. Or that he got pissed because the former ukrainian ambassador to germany insulted him on twitter and decided to teach ukraine a lesson.

EDIT: To specify, with align I don't mean his recent stupid twitter brainfarts, but more actively working in their interest.

On October 12 2022 16:33 a_ch wrote:



-well, that's one sort of things (and in my 40-s I've seen lots of it), but lying to your own people in order to form public opinion, or manipulate them into doing something - I thought was possible only in Russia, with most of the media belonging to the state.




-considering economics, Russia did a really good job in the last ~20 years. A good specialist in Moscow can now earn +- the same as in any large European cities. There are problems still, but incomparable to what has been in the 1990s.

As it was mentioned here recently, Ukrainian GDP pc is ~3 times lower, so "force them to the same standard" doesn't look that bad - and I believe that was the prime reason for Crimea people voting for joining Russia in 2014.

Regarding the Ukrainian territories - there has been the case that Russian troops left the northern Ukrainian regions after negotiations in April - without being really forced to.
The annexiations in the south-east also happened only 1/2 year after those territories have been captured.
So at least at the start of the war the land grab didn't look like the ultimate goal

On October 12 2022 16:50 Broetchenholer wrote:
Yeah, because back then the northern front was so incredibly overextended that even Russian political leadership understood that it was untenable. And in the south they probably wanted to wait until they actually controlled all of the regions they now claimed as part of Russia. They still had hopes that their special operation would end in a victory, allowing them to hold a little less ridiculous referendums. In regards to Germany trying to bleed out a geopolitical opponent, dude, if anything, Germany is an economic empire. The only thing that would make sense for Germany to increase its imperial standing would be to end this war as quickly as possible to go back to normal. How stupid would German government need to be to intentionally stagnate the economy for economic imperial reasons?

On October 12 2022 18:18 0x64 wrote:


Lol, Crimea voting to join Russia. Voting and Russia in the same sentence does not work. You can't vote with a gun pointed at your head.

The power of denial is incredibly huge in Russian culture. I guess that's what happen when everyone not in denial leaves the country or is killed (I am talking about the 20th century, not the last 30 years).

Not teaching about the atrocity of the Stalinian regime in school after the fall of communism was the biggest mistake that was made.

Not being able to solve political assassinations is already by itself living 50 years in the past.

You can earn all the money in the world, quality of life will not follow but for a small percentage.

You may be one of the privileged one, but I can assure you that life is hard in the suburbs of Moscow and Saint-Petersburg. Not even closely comparable to what I've seen in other large cities in Europe.

For me it was quite a shock to see the quality of infrastructure, it is a miracle people are not dying every day from the electrical work.

I though it was a cliché to have the light dim when the neighbour use an electrical drill until I saw it from my own eyes.

It is clear that last 20 years has seen a lot of improvement and that the posh area around the city center is getting huge.

But just like it took a long time to see improvements, it will take some time for you to notice the decline. And you will be told "but at least we are not declining as fast as Europeans" and that will keep you happy.

On October 12 2022 18:18 0x64 wrote:


Lol, Crimea voting to join Russia. Voting and Russia in the same sentence does not work. You can't vote with a gun pointed at your head.

The power of denial is incredibly huge in Russian culture. I guess that's what happen when everyone not in denial leaves the country or is killed (I am talking about the 20th century, not the last 30 years).

Not teaching about the atrocity of the Stalinian regime in school after the fall of communism was the biggest mistake that was made.

Not being able to solve political assassinations is already by itself living 50 years in the past.

You can earn all the money in the world, quality of life will not follow but for a small percentage.

You may be one of the privileged one, but I can assure you that life is hard in the suburbs of Moscow and Saint-Petersburg. Not even closely comparable to what I've seen in other large cities in Europe.

For me it was quite a shock to see the quality of infrastructure, it is a miracle people are not dying every day from the electrical work.

I though it was a cliché to have the light dim when the neighbour use an electrical drill until I saw it from my own eyes.

It is clear that last 20 years has seen a lot of improvement and that the posh area around the city center is getting huge.

But just like it took a long time to see improvements, it will take some time for you to notice the decline. And you will be told "but at least we are not declining as fast as Europeans" and that will keep you happy.

On October 12 2022 18:56 a_ch wrote:



>>The power of denial is incredibly huge in Russian culture. I guess that's what happen when everyone not in denial leaves the country or is killed
-tells me a person, who believes that the voting in Crimea was done under a gunpoint.
There are plenty of videos of mass celebrations on that day in Sevastopol. If that's not a good indicator of a strong public opinion on the matter, I don't know what is.

In regrads to infrastructure problems - there definitely are, but I see lots of them being solved, and not only in the Moscow center. And as I mentioned before, my relatives live in Munich - so if it was so much worse here, I'd long left the country.

On February 27, Russian forces cut the Crimean Peninsula off from the mainland Ukraine and took over Supreme Council of Crimea. Under armed occupation, the Crimean regional government was dissolved and reformed, and voted to hold a referendum on the status of Crimea on May 25.

"it is impossible to find out whether all the 64 members of the 100-member legislature who were registered as present, when the two decisions were voted on or whether someone else used the plastic voting cards of some of them" because due to the armed occupation of parliament it was unclear how many members of parliament were present.

Russian militia commander Igor Girkin recounted that his squad "collected" the deputies into the chambers, and had to "forcibly drive them to vote".

The voting boxes were transparent and the ballots were not placed in envelopes in such a way as to make the marked ballots visible through the box walls.

On October 12 2022 19:22 Silvanel wrote:
Mass celebrations, love those things, I still remmeber communist times when people had to attend them and celebrate or else... I also used to work with a guy who fled Crimea in 2014 in fear of his life (cause he dint want to speak Russian). Yeah those refernedums are really trustworthy...

On October 12 2022 18:56 a_ch wrote:-tells me a person, who believes that the voting in Crimea was done under a gunpoint.

On October 12 2022 19:32 a_ch wrote:


I'm sure there were people in Crimea who were unhappy with joining Russia. The question is whether they were the majority or not. And it is quite easy to differ a mass event with obligatory attendance from a real one, especially since here we are quite experienced in observing both of the types

On October 12 2022 19:36 Gorsameth wrote:
Its literally the world vs the likes of Syria and Bolivia on this. When even your own supposed allies like China refuse to recognise your actions maybe you should have a hard think about whether your on the right side of history.

On October 12 2022 19:48 a_ch wrote:


I don't see where I stated what is right or wrong. My claim is that the popular opinion in Crimea at that time was strongly favored towards joining Russia, period. Even the Wikipedia article dosn't put any statements, claiming this is utterly wrong; just some minor details, like blaming transparent boxes (though I'd rather believe in attempts of ballots stuffing /which was the main reason for introducing transparent boxes in the first place/, than to the idea of an FSB officer monitoring how you voted), etc.

My own opinion at that time was strongly against annexiation, as my wife was a regular visitor of these places, and the referendum has resulted in drastic changes in Crimea, may of which unfavorable.

On October 12 2022 19:43 zatic wrote:

No, that's not the question. Even if - if - there was a majority for joining Russia in Crimea, the vote was still done at gun point after foreign invasion.

But again, because it was done at gun point after foreign invasion we can't possibly know that.