|
NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. |
We're also talking about children because that's supposed to explain why there are more women killed than usual, so we'd need them to be girl soldiers too, not just child soldiers, in order for it to have any relevance at all.
|
On October 24 2024 15:52 PremoBeats wrote:The argumentation of these last couple of pages is so fucked up, that is hard to come up with a moderate response. You guys do realize that being a child soldier is not only about active combat, right? We have documentation of minors being used as smugglers We have documented summer camps of indoctrination and fighting for minors We have documentation of minors being used as suicide bombers We have documentation of children watching firing mortars from extremely close distance, so that if the mortar gets hit by a rocket, the children would die too We have ridiculous amounts of tunnels under schools, where children unknowingly are put in danger. And these are only the cases that actually surfaced… the number of unreported cases naturally is much higher due to the nature of the phenomenon. But somehow all of this isn’t proof that children are put in harm’s way actively or used as soldiers? Or that all of this will lead to higher casualty rates among children, especially as the Gazan population is so child-heavy? And it is completely implausible that these exact minors listed above are also used as messengers or spies/observers, even if there is no actual proof? How would one even prove this, if not for catching a minor observer/messenger/smuggler/suicide bomber and at the same time having Hamas’ documentation of the minor being in their ranks? Are you people seriously suggesting that these kids act on their own? That they simply find explosives on the street or miraculously know where the terrorists hide and out of pure kindness they access damage situations and report them back out of their own agency? Seriously, your hatred towards Israel is blinding this discussion to such extreme levels that it is hard to find words. You hand wave away “singular incidents” of children being used, but intellectually are not even remotely able to do the same for Israel when comparing overall numbers to singular incidents you so happily cite and post. At least more and more users here openly admit, that they simple are here to shit on Israel. (I seriously wonder if the same people bring equal effort and spirit to the table when talking about conflicts that are much worse in almost any regard). https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdfWe have known for years that Hamas is using minors and civilians as human shields to inflate casualty numbers. How all of this is being questioned now, seems completely absurd. If you would put only 10% of your let’s-hate-on-Israel-time in actually understanding how much these tactics inflate civilian casualties and especially minors, you’d understand the context of the statistics and the difficulties the IDF faces a lot better. Show nested quote +On October 22 2024 04:22 GreenHorizons wrote:
I don't know that we should accept at face value that "Israel has a right to exist". It's at least worth further examination imo.
Why would you want to examine any country's right to exist? Or only Israel's? On what principle would you challenge this right and why wouldn't the same principle be applied to other countries? Show nested quote +On October 20 2024 05:36 WombaT wrote:On October 20 2024 05:20 Billyboy wrote:On October 20 2024 04:57 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 20 2024 04:53 Billyboy wrote:On October 20 2024 04:51 Billyboy wrote:On October 20 2024 04:30 Salazarz wrote:On October 20 2024 04:24 Billyboy wrote:
How many are under 12, 12-15, 16-18 that data just plain does not exist. But what is certain is they exist and Hamas does no age checking. If a child by our definition of under 18 shows up and is capable of doing what Hamas wants, they are in.
Have you got any sources on that, or is that just what you believe? On October 20 2024 04:24 Billyboy wrote:Can you quote any excuse I've made? Can you point out where I justify any dead kid? Of course not. What happened is you asked if Palestine used Child soldiers. I answered factually that Hamas did, you were somehow completely shocked by well known, easily verifiable fact and have created some narrative to keep you hate peaked or whatever your not sensible reason is. By your definition of 'factual truth', Israel also uses child soldiers (which is basically how this entire line of conversation started). Of course, that definition is absolutely worthless for the purpose of this discussion as without delving into details like how often, in what capacity, or why, it really doesn't add anything other than 'yeah war sucks and people sometimes do shitty things in war' which is what everyone here at this point surely understands already. Do I have any sources on them not having a registry of their soldiers that include demographics? No, because sources on things that don't exist, don't exist. But If you are able to find one, even without ages that just showed how many troops and other support they have lost that would be fantastic. The only things I can see are either IDF, which are questionable at best, or from Hamas that every single person is a civilian, even less useful. There is lots of info on the Israeli stuff, more even because they are a democracy that follows much of the rules of the world (and even reports when they break them). Check the source below, you can cherry pick it how you like! (Or try something new and read all the info, your call). https://documents.un.org/doc/undoc/gen/n22/344/71/pdf/n2234471.pdf On October 20 2024 04:37 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 20 2024 04:24 Billyboy wrote:On October 19 2024 23:09 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 19 2024 22:47 Billyboy wrote:On October 19 2024 21:58 Jockmcplop wrote:
I'd think there would be much more made of it if Hamas was deploying a child army.
Its more likely that any kids involved aren't actually armed or anything and are throwing rocks and basically acting like bait. That's Hamas tactics for you. The young ones that is the case, that or suicide bombers. The older ones (still children by our definition) are having kids, raising them and joining the Hamas military wing. This is really not in dispute anywhere. Well other than here. There is lots made of it, just not certain "news" channels. This seems to be very in doubt. There's been instances for sure, but according to multiple sources, the worst of this was around 2000-2005 and even then an investigation found no systematic use of child soldiers. Sure you can see the Hamas propaganda videos, and the brainwashing is almost certainly real, but they aren't fielding an army of child soldiers. If you can provide a source that isn't based in Israel I'll take a look though. You are never going to get exact numbers because Hamas is a terrorist org and not a regular government, the same way you are not getting any sort of numbers on casualties compared to civilians. I'd say amnesty international is a pretty decent source and not Israeli. But to whether there is 100 or 1000 or whatever who knows. How many are under 12, 12-15, 16-18 that data just plain does not exist. But what is certain is they exist and Hamas does no age checking. If a child by our definition of under 18 shows up and is capable of doing what Hamas wants, they are in. Just so you know, this also means that the UK employs child soldiers, in a much more systematic and legislated way than Hamas does. No it does not. But yes other countries use under 18 legislated and systematic, more is you making it up since we don't have that data and since no 14 year olds in the UK are suicide bombers, or caught carrying ammo and pipe bombs and stuff it is a terribly loaded presumption. What are you on about? You JUST got finished saying that because the odd 17 year old might get a gun from Hamas, that means they employ child soldiers. We confirmed that investigations have found no systematic use of child soldiers by Hamas, and yet you just keep insisting that there is with zero evidence. Post evidence or stop making stuff up. Also Israel follows the rules of the world? Are you kidding me? I suppose the fact that the UN, the ICC and most international law experts disagree with you is just because they are all anti-semitic lol You not reading the sources is not me saying that. When I said the 17 year old thing that is one end of the spectrum not the only thing. You are the best of the bunch here in having a reasonable conversation but it is still near impossible when you are looking for loopholes or reasons to be mad instead of at the actual information. It is not like I'm not providing sources that also provide tons of info on the what the IDF is doing or the worse things that the Israeli settlers are doing as well. Again not my problem if you don't read them. It is factual that Hamas and all of Iranian proxies use child soldiers, it is also factual that they use less total and as a percentage than in some of the African conflicts. It is also factual that when you look into Child soldiers they also talk about the use of them as human shields, but I don't want to bring that up (even though it is extremely true) because you guys somehow think that makes the childrens deaths acceptable, even though it obviously does not. Here is another quote. In 2005 Amnesty International condemned the use of children by Palestinian militant groups saying: "Palestinian armed groups have repeatedly shown total disregard for the most fundamental human rights, notably the right to life, by deliberately targeting Israeli civilians and by using Palestinian children in armed attacks." Here is some of the info from the second source. The United Nations verified 2,934 grave violations against 1,208 Palestinian
children and 9 Israeli children (915 boys, 302 girls) in the occupied West Bank,
including East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip and Israel.
85. The United Nations verified the recruitment of one Palestinian boy by the
Mujahidin Brigades in Gaza. In addition, the recruitment and use of one boy by
Hamas’ Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades in 2019 was verified in 2021. In Gaza,
Palestinian Islamic Jihad’s Al-Quds Brigades, Hamas’ Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades,
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine Abu Ali Mustafa Brigades and
Palestinian Mujahidin Movement Mujahidin Brigades, organized “summer camps”
for adults and children as young as 14, exposing them to military content and
activities.
86. The United Nations verified the detention of 637 Palestinian children for alleged
security offences by Israeli forces in the occupied West Bank, including 557 in East
Jerusalem. Among those children, 85 reported ill-treatment and breaches of due
process by Israeli forces while in detention, with 75 per cent reporting having
experienced physical violence. On October 20 2024 05:01 Magic Powers wrote:
Interesting.
Hamas are not openly advertising their child soldier recruitment program. We know with certainty they're recruiting a large number of child soldiers.
Israel is not openly advocating for Palestinian genocide. We know with certainty they're not committing genocide. Wow another terrible strawman good job! I look forward to your next post about quitting the thread until X and or stopping responding to some one and lasting hours or less. What could you possibly referring to new Liqudian? I chuckled. Show nested quote +On October 22 2024 06:57 WombaT wrote:
I mean there is the slight problem that, idk I’m not a Jew from 1945 but I’m not sure I would have been enthusiastic in having a newly established enclave in that particular area
I don’t personally think establishing a state where other folks live based on an old, old ethnoreligious claim for a disparately spread group of people was ever the best of ideas.
I’ve long thought the morally courageous thing would have been for various countries to just stop being anti-Semitic shitbags to varying degrees and embrace their Jewish populations as part of the social fabric.
On the flipside to that, that people went through trauma that’s unfathomable to any modern reader. You can read as much as you want, have a great knowledge of the history but I mean, we haven’t lived anything remotely comparable. Would you take a ‘ok well this won’t happen again it’ll be fine’ versus the alternative of a Jewish state? I sure as fuck don’t blame many for going for the latter.
Going back to GH’s point I don’t think anyone really has some right to a homeland. Especially the older and more distant the claim is. If you’ve some diffuse population, the various constituent parts should be enfranchised and able to exercise whatever culture. Maybe over time your nation state changes (I envisage it taking a while but I may reside in Ireland one day, politically)
I mean it’s not like fucking up something in a database, reverting to an old backup and fixing it. There’s no rewind button to fix many historical inequities without causing more.
This does go the other way though in that to me Israel exists so, you can’t really rewind the clock on that.
The dilemma you point out as well as the reality that to correct past injustices will only lead to present ones are both things I completely agree on. The abominable injustice done to the Palestinians as well as the desperation of the Jews that faced extermination in many countries are both simple facts of history. An issue most overlook when putting up the principle that "no one has the right to a homeland" is, that this principle then must also apply to Palestinians who now claim the land where Israel exists as their homeland. The more times passes, the weaker this claim becomes, given it was there in the first place after the war was lost. We will soon enter a phase where no one who was alive in 1947 will be left on this planet. By the way, I didn't see another response by you - just to make sure, I didn't overlook anything. Show nested quote +On October 23 2024 16:26 stilt wrote:
I wonder what would be the final death toll of this mass slaughter ? 200k ? 1 millions ? Maybe even more
When would you expect these numbers to become a reality? Next century? Because the fatalities peaked at the end of the initial phase and have been steadily going down since then. If the projection comes true, you'd probably have to until 2100 for the casualty rate to reach 1 million. Show nested quote +On October 19 2024 19:29 Magic Powers wrote:
Israel creates child soldiers with violence and oppression. It's only logical that Hamas has some in their ranks. There's not much more to say about it. The idea that Hamas is responsible for the radicalization of a child who lost its family and subsequently wants to destroy Israel is fairly absurd. Their deaths are on Israel, even moreso than the deaths of adult soldiers. Seriously your commenting gets worse and worse and your text as usual contains several fallacies. 1. False Cause (Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc): While Israeli military actions may contribute to conditions foster anger and resentment, this does not justify or directly lead to Hamas's recruitment of child soldiers. The responsibility for child soldiers lies with the organization that recruits and uses them, which in this case is Hamas, and it is a violation of international law. Also: Hamas would attack Israel simply for existing as explained in their charter - the ensuing fighting would lead to reasons to foster hate towards Israel anyway. 2. Moral Equivalence: You suggest that because children may have suffered due to Israeli actions, it is logical for them to join Hamas, and that Hamas is not primarily responsible for their radicalization. This commits a moral equivalence fallacy, where it equates the suffering inflicted by one party with the actions of another. Using children in conflict as soldiers or shields is a war crime, regardless of the underlying reasons for their radicalization. The suffering of Palestinian children under Israeli policies does not negate Hamas's responsibility for recruiting them. 3. Appeal to Emotion: You heavily appeal to emotional reasoning by referencing the tragic loss of family and suggest that this would naturally drive children to "destroy Israel." While emotions are a significant factor in conflicts, this over-simplifies a complex issue. It downplays Hamas's role in systematically indoctrinating and recruiting children into its ranks, placing sole blame on Israel for the outcome, without recognizing the agency and responsibilities of Hamas. Again: They would also do it, if Israel simply existed, as it displayed in their charter. 4. Red Herring: The statement that "their deaths are on Israel, even more so than adult soldiers" diverts attention from the issue of Hamas's use of child soldiers by blaming Israel entirely for their deaths. This distracts from Hamas's violation of international laws concerning child soldiers and their use of human shields, focusing instead on Israel’s military actions without addressing the immediate issue of recruitment. 5. Straw Man Fallacy: "The idea that Hamas is responsible for the radicalization of a child... is fairly absurd" sets up a straw man by suggesting that the argument against Hamas's responsibility for child soldiers is about radicalization alone, ignoring their active recruitment and use of children in conflict. The real issue is not just about children being radicalized, but that Hamas actively trains and uses children in military roles, as pointed out above. Show nested quote +On October 24 2024 08:23 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 24 2024 06:29 Elroi wrote:
Why is it in bad taste? It seems to be an appropriate word to describe the murder/torture/rape spree that Hamas perpetrated, which targeted Jews? Because pogroms were neighbors targeting neighbors, which who they had always lived in peace, because of religious hatred. Not a terror attack from an oppressed people living in an open air prison against the citizen of a country that steals their land. The hamas attacks were horrendous, but they didn’t kill those people because they don’t like Jews, and they didn’t kill their peaceful neighbors with whom they lived in peace. You can chose to call every act of violence where the jews are on the receiving end a « pogrom ». Then the word becomes a slogan. Call it a massacre, call it a terror attack. Don’t call it a pogrom. It’s not a pogrom. Absolutely ludicrous. It is stated in Hamas’ charter from 1988 that they want to destroy the state of Israel. It also cites jihad as a religious duty for Muslims to reclaim Palestine, contains anti-Semitic references, equating the conflict with a broader war against Jews and includes language about fighting non-believers and infidels. Article 7: "The Day of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will. hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say, O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him". Article 15: "When our enemies usurp Islamic land, jihad becomes a duty binding on all Muslims. With regard to the fight against Jewish people, who have usurped Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad will be raised." Conspiracy elements include: "They stirred revolutions in various parts of the world... they were behind the French Revolution, the Communist Revolution, and most revolutions we heard and hear about... They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate... they were behind World War II." Why don't you think a single jew lives in Gaza? Because they'd be progrom'ed the minute they'd show up in Gaza city. Hamas has been hell bent to murder Jews and destroy Israel since decades - of course these people were slaughtered because they were Jews. Seriously, some people here are so god damn ignorant and uneducated about this conflict, it is hard to believe, how you formulate such nonsensical ideas with such vigor.
A lot of text with one link, a old nato rapport as a proof ? I would have expected a bit more from someone who is so knowledgeable.
Israeli has a policy of separation between jews and arabs since 2005. The disengagement on gaza is a unilateral rupture of oslo accord during whose main focus is the separation of palestinians and israeli population the palestinians are still subjugated to israeli authority in the west bank.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4154798.stm
With this very beautiful speech about the weak and the strong made by ariel sharon, elwood would approve.
Despite the fact the PA has collaborated with the israeli, abbas even threw out the one who were opposed to this like Kaddoumi.
It didn't deter the spoilation of the lands, water, mass imprisonnement and even this : 2 years old being murdered by israelis without consequence :
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-65917357.amp
For the water : https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/
Oh and here what happens to their school : https://www.euractiv.fr/section/international/news/une-ecole-financee-par-lue-detruite-en-cisjordanie/
A school financed by ue getting destroyed.
Meanwhile, the war is cultural as well : arab cimeteries are either destroyed or transformed as touristic attraction :
https://geoconfluences.ens-lyon.fr/informations-scientifiques/dossiers-thematiques/fait-religieux-et-construction-de-l-espace/corpus-documentaire/jerusalem-une-guerre-pour-l-eternite
https://www.leparisien.fr/video/video-des-tombes-palestiniennes-detruites-pour-la-construction-dun-parc-a-jerusalem-29-10-2021-5D55HIJPSVCC3OSOUPTKZANWMA.php
But considering you don't even acknowledge any apartheid which has been characterized as such by independant ngo and human right organization, you're a lost cause. Palestinians are literaly in cage, here is the checkpoints repertoried by a israeli ngo B'Tselem.
https://www.btselem.org/freedom_of_movement/checkpoints_and_forbidden_roads
The official death toll cannot be true, there is no way to know how many people are dead in gaza, that's not me saying that out of nothing but specialist of this kind of question lile the epidemiologists :
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-024-02508-0
That's why the lancet by comparing gaza to other conflicts suggested in july the number of 180k
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)01169-3/fulltext
Meanwhile people who actually have been in gaza all state they have never faced such a humanitarian disaster :
https://www.msf.fr/gaza-nos-reponses-a-vos-questions
https://www.actioncontrelafaim.org/temoignage/a-gaza-notre-intervention-est-soumise-a-un-niveau-de-defis-et-de-contraintes-sans-precedent/
https://www.publicsenat.fr/actualites/international/gaza-raphael-pitti-et-des-medecins-humanitaires-racontent-lhorreur-et-reclament-un-cessez-le-feu-immediat
The israeli army is destroying water plants and destroying the healthcare system of gaza by capturing, killing and torturing medecins :
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/05/un-expert-horrified-death-gazan-orthopedic-surgeon-israeli-detention
Here is the destroyng water plants/wells :
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/destruction-gaza-water-wells-deepens-palestinian-misery-2024-07-30/
I even publish a few posts ago a tik tok of israeli solfiers proudly destroying a water plant.
Finally, a jewish historian speciliazed in the shoah actually wrote this : https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/13/israel-gaza-historian-omer-bartov
So, based on these informations provided by experts and people on the fields like humanitarians, NU observers and those barbaric israeli soldiers, I indeed conclude there are way more deaths and considering there is no end in sight, there will be even more
But for sure, the tendancies in the western world to pretend every conflict in the middle east is religious-based is indeed the sign of a greater knowledge about the region and not a tentative to avoid valid criticism of some policies, this is the same semantic used during the war of iraq.
In conlusion, you don't know much about this conflict or middle east in general, you're a negationist parroting the propaganda made by the people who are actively doing the genocide. There are a enormous amount of evidence of war crimes and apartheid which are corrobarated by israeli society (declaration of their scholars, politics, religious authority and so on, there a shit tons on works and links about it as well).
But as people deny the shoah despite these overwhelming evidence, we will deny it as well, right ?
Nb : you still don't explain why after one year of constant bombardement which don't prevent israeli strikes and don't provoke international sanctions, hamas or hezbollah would still use human shields, are they vilains from your cartoons ?
|
On October 23 2024 20:47 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2024 20:40 KT_Elwood wrote:
Spanish dudes with metal swords were "superior" to south american natives with sharpsticks.
This has nothing to do with nazi racist pseudo science about different races of homo sapiens (which do not exist).
Were Spanish dudes superior? Or did they have better weaponry (and smallpox)?
The spanish troops were superior because of their advanced weapons. Maybe tactics.. but this isn't a proof of superior DNA.. it's just that the cruel dumbfucks were lucky somebody invented stuff on their continent.. which other humans had not yet.
|
On October 24 2024 18:48 KT_Elwood wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2024 20:47 Acrofales wrote:On October 23 2024 20:40 KT_Elwood wrote:
Spanish dudes with metal swords were "superior" to south american natives with sharpsticks.
This has nothing to do with nazi racist pseudo science about different races of homo sapiens (which do not exist).
Were Spanish dudes superior? Or did they have better weaponry (and smallpox)? The spanish troops were superior because of their advanced weapons. Maybe tactics.. but this isn't a proof of superior DNA.. it's just that the cruel dumbfucks were lucky somebody invented stuff on their continent.. which other humans had not yet.
So basically you agree that post-enlightenment, if this were to happen again, we would not be cheering on the Spanish colonizers and stating "well, they're superior, so they can take that land", but rather we would be heaping pressure on Spain, maybe even discussing military intervention in the conflict area, in order to ensure Cuzco remains intact and the capital of Incaland, after the Spaniards already murdered Montezuma and razed Tenochtitlan, and are banging on the gates at Quito?
I guess you see where I'm going here?
|
On October 23 2024 20:54 Magic Powers wrote:
1) Nazi Germany wasn't a result of religious persecution. Jews were Hitler's punching bag because he believed they were the destroyers of nations by selfishly hoarding every nation's wealth. And he also saw them as the disgusting rats in the poorest corners of the streets. He held a few contradicting views like that.
A Jewish capitalist destruction of nations was his thesis, and religion was absolutely not at the core of his hatred. I'm not even sure if religion had anything at all to do with the persecution.
2) "Be it human subspecies.."
What the hell?
1) I am pretty sure the whole nazi brass was above simple believes. Racism was a tool they used... and boy it worked.
The jews were an easy inner target, a minority you could blame, exploit and frankly rob of posessions. This made the robbers and killers very happy complicits of the Nazis.
Nazi Germany re-introduced Witch-burning ... but with jews and communists and a lot more wealth to be extracted from them.
2)
I should have used "genus" for my neanderthal-extinction argument I guess
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species
Human:
Domain: Eukaryota
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Primates
Suborder: Haplorhini
Infraorder: Simiiformes
Family: Hominidae
Subfamily: Homininae
Tribe: Hominini
Genus: Homo
Species: H. sapiens
Neanderthal:
Domain: Eukaryota
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Primates
Suborder: Haplorhini
Infraorder: Simiiformes
Family: Hominidae
Subfamily: Homininae
Tribe: Hominini
Genus: Homo
Species: †H. neanderthalensis
But maybe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subspecies would still applly because there was plenty of neanderthal on modern human humping going on.. and also neanderthal was kind of assimilated in what modern human genetic makeup is today..
|
On October 24 2024 18:55 Acrofales wrote:
I guess you see where I'm going here?
But you are stuck at the point were there already is an Israel. You are not in 1947 stopping the boats of jewish migrants.
How you roll that all back?
|
On October 24 2024 19:13 KT_Elwood wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2024 18:55 Acrofales wrote:
I guess you see where I'm going here? But you are stuck at the point were there already is an Israel. You are not in 1947 stopping the boats of jewish migrants. How you roll that all back?
They're doing it right now, not just in 1947. You know that because you've been defending it for weeks now, including talking about how ethnic cleansing of Palestine was probably the best outcome at this point, you remember?
Edit: Yooooo I'm proofreading an article that talks about the dahiya doctrine for the liberal-ass newspaper I work at, how are we finally publishing true things is the world healing?
|
On October 24 2024 16:09 Jockmcplop wrote:
Just a quick point premo:
The reason I don't accept single instances of child soldiers in Hamas as evidence that they employ enough child soldiers to artificially inflate child casualty numbers is because it isn't evidence of that, and there never has been any evidence of that.
The documents billyboy posted seem to prove the opposite, saying that there isn't any evidence of systematic child soldier usage.
The High numbers of casualties of women have nothing to do with their military service and the number of children dead has very little to do with child soldiers.
It has everything to do with the Hamas (and all Iranian armies) military doctrine of putting their military infrastructure in high civilian areas (a war crime, but what do they care their entire strategy is war crime based) so Israel is forced to either not attack or kill civilians and enrage the world. And then Israel's military doctrine changing post Oct 7th to not caring about where the military target is and what and who is collateral damage.
|
On October 24 2024 21:34 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2024 16:09 Jockmcplop wrote:
Just a quick point premo:
The reason I don't accept single instances of child soldiers in Hamas as evidence that they employ enough child soldiers to artificially inflate child casualty numbers is because it isn't evidence of that, and there never has been any evidence of that.
The documents billyboy posted seem to prove the opposite, saying that there isn't any evidence of systematic child soldier usage.
The High numbers of casualties of women have nothing to do with their military service and the number of children dead has very little to do with child soldiers. It has everything to do with the Hamas (and all Iranian armies) military doctrine of putting their military infrastructure in high civilian areas (a war crime, but what do they care their entire strategy is war crime based) so Israel is forced to either not attack or kill civilians and enrage the world. And then Israel's military doctrine changing post Oct 7th to not caring about where the military target is and what and who is collateral damage.
Premo's point was that that Israel was showing amazing restraint because there were so few civilian casualties, compared to other examples of asymmetrical urban warfare. You're saying the opposite. I don't think anyone disagrees with your point.
E: I mean, we disagree with the basic premise that this is totally fine and the only way Israel could reasonably act here, but not that that will result in high civilian casualties, which was what the whole point was about.
|
On October 24 2024 19:13 KT_Elwood wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2024 18:55 Acrofales wrote:
I guess you see where I'm going here? But you are stuck at the point were there already is an Israel. You are not in 1947 stopping the boats of jewish migrants. How you roll that all back?
I guess you either didn't know, or are being intentionally obtuse.
Anyway, to continue the analogy, what you said about the founding of Israel has about as much bearing on the current situation as pointing at Columbus founding La Navidad and concluding that from that point onwards, the conquest of America was a done deal, and the genocide of Native Americans an unfortunate and unpreventable side effect, caused the minute that Columbus founded the colony.
No, we don't live in 1947, and Israel's behavior *now* is what is comparable to the Spanish conquest.
|
On October 24 2024 21:54 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2024 21:34 Billyboy wrote:On October 24 2024 16:09 Jockmcplop wrote:
Just a quick point premo:
The reason I don't accept single instances of child soldiers in Hamas as evidence that they employ enough child soldiers to artificially inflate child casualty numbers is because it isn't evidence of that, and there never has been any evidence of that.
The documents billyboy posted seem to prove the opposite, saying that there isn't any evidence of systematic child soldier usage.
The High numbers of casualties of women have nothing to do with their military service and the number of children dead has very little to do with child soldiers. It has everything to do with the Hamas (and all Iranian armies) military doctrine of putting their military infrastructure in high civilian areas (a war crime, but what do they care their entire strategy is war crime based) so Israel is forced to either not attack or kill civilians and enrage the world. And then Israel's military doctrine changing post Oct 7th to not caring about where the military target is and what and who is collateral damage. Premo's point was that that Israel was showing amazing restraint because there were so few civilian casualties, compared to other examples of asymmetrical urban warfare. You're saying the opposite. I don't think anyone disagrees with your point. E: I mean, we disagree with the basic premise that this is totally fine and the only way Israel could reasonably act here, but not that that will result in high civilian casualties, which was what the whole point was about.
I'm not sure if I'm saying the opposite, I have not read all of premo's posts or the rebuttals. I'm simply saying it is true that Hamas uses child soldiers directly. But it is far more the choice of where Hamas puts their military assets and the IDF attacking any way.
To your edit, the premise you stated is not mine. Either you are making it up for me or you are trusting the others who are making it up for me. Feel free to find it the words I have actually written, I'm certain you won't.
|
Northern Ireland23325 Posts
On October 24 2024 15:52 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2024 04:22 GreenHorizons wrote:
I don't know that we should accept at face value that "Israel has a right to exist". It's at least worth further examination imo.
Why would you want to examine any country's right to exist? Or only Israel's? On what principle would you challenge this right and why wouldn't the same principle be applied to other countries? Show nested quote +On October 20 2024 05:36 WombaT wrote:On October 20 2024 05:20 Billyboy wrote:On October 20 2024 04:57 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 20 2024 04:53 Billyboy wrote:On October 20 2024 04:51 Billyboy wrote:On October 20 2024 04:30 Salazarz wrote:On October 20 2024 04:24 Billyboy wrote:
How many are under 12, 12-15, 16-18 that data just plain does not exist. But what is certain is they exist and Hamas does no age checking. If a child by our definition of under 18 shows up and is capable of doing what Hamas wants, they are in.
Have you got any sources on that, or is that just what you believe? On October 20 2024 04:24 Billyboy wrote:Can you quote any excuse I've made? Can you point out where I justify any dead kid? Of course not. What happened is you asked if Palestine used Child soldiers. I answered factually that Hamas did, you were somehow completely shocked by well known, easily verifiable fact and have created some narrative to keep you hate peaked or whatever your not sensible reason is. By your definition of 'factual truth', Israel also uses child soldiers (which is basically how this entire line of conversation started). Of course, that definition is absolutely worthless for the purpose of this discussion as without delving into details like how often, in what capacity, or why, it really doesn't add anything other than 'yeah war sucks and people sometimes do shitty things in war' which is what everyone here at this point surely understands already. Do I have any sources on them not having a registry of their soldiers that include demographics? No, because sources on things that don't exist, don't exist. But If you are able to find one, even without ages that just showed how many troops and other support they have lost that would be fantastic. The only things I can see are either IDF, which are questionable at best, or from Hamas that every single person is a civilian, even less useful. There is lots of info on the Israeli stuff, more even because they are a democracy that follows much of the rules of the world (and even reports when they break them). Check the source below, you can cherry pick it how you like! (Or try something new and read all the info, your call). https://documents.un.org/doc/undoc/gen/n22/344/71/pdf/n2234471.pdf On October 20 2024 04:37 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 20 2024 04:24 Billyboy wrote:On October 19 2024 23:09 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 19 2024 22:47 Billyboy wrote:On October 19 2024 21:58 Jockmcplop wrote:
I'd think there would be much more made of it if Hamas was deploying a child army.
Its more likely that any kids involved aren't actually armed or anything and are throwing rocks and basically acting like bait. That's Hamas tactics for you. The young ones that is the case, that or suicide bombers. The older ones (still children by our definition) are having kids, raising them and joining the Hamas military wing. This is really not in dispute anywhere. Well other than here. There is lots made of it, just not certain "news" channels. This seems to be very in doubt. There's been instances for sure, but according to multiple sources, the worst of this was around 2000-2005 and even then an investigation found no systematic use of child soldiers. Sure you can see the Hamas propaganda videos, and the brainwashing is almost certainly real, but they aren't fielding an army of child soldiers. If you can provide a source that isn't based in Israel I'll take a look though. You are never going to get exact numbers because Hamas is a terrorist org and not a regular government, the same way you are not getting any sort of numbers on casualties compared to civilians. I'd say amnesty international is a pretty decent source and not Israeli. But to whether there is 100 or 1000 or whatever who knows. How many are under 12, 12-15, 16-18 that data just plain does not exist. But what is certain is they exist and Hamas does no age checking. If a child by our definition of under 18 shows up and is capable of doing what Hamas wants, they are in. Just so you know, this also means that the UK employs child soldiers, in a much more systematic and legislated way than Hamas does. No it does not. But yes other countries use under 18 legislated and systematic, more is you making it up since we don't have that data and since no 14 year olds in the UK are suicide bombers, or caught carrying ammo and pipe bombs and stuff it is a terribly loaded presumption. What are you on about? You JUST got finished saying that because the odd 17 year old might get a gun from Hamas, that means they employ child soldiers. We confirmed that investigations have found no systematic use of child soldiers by Hamas, and yet you just keep insisting that there is with zero evidence. Post evidence or stop making stuff up. Also Israel follows the rules of the world? Are you kidding me? I suppose the fact that the UN, the ICC and most international law experts disagree with you is just because they are all anti-semitic lol You not reading the sources is not me saying that. When I said the 17 year old thing that is one end of the spectrum not the only thing. You are the best of the bunch here in having a reasonable conversation but it is still near impossible when you are looking for loopholes or reasons to be mad instead of at the actual information. It is not like I'm not providing sources that also provide tons of info on the what the IDF is doing or the worse things that the Israeli settlers are doing as well. Again not my problem if you don't read them. It is factual that Hamas and all of Iranian proxies use child soldiers, it is also factual that they use less total and as a percentage than in some of the African conflicts. It is also factual that when you look into Child soldiers they also talk about the use of them as human shields, but I don't want to bring that up (even though it is extremely true) because you guys somehow think that makes the childrens deaths acceptable, even though it obviously does not. Here is another quote. In 2005 Amnesty International condemned the use of children by Palestinian militant groups saying: "Palestinian armed groups have repeatedly shown total disregard for the most fundamental human rights, notably the right to life, by deliberately targeting Israeli civilians and by using Palestinian children in armed attacks." Here is some of the info from the second source. The United Nations verified 2,934 grave violations against 1,208 Palestinian
children and 9 Israeli children (915 boys, 302 girls) in the occupied West Bank,
including East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip and Israel.
85. The United Nations verified the recruitment of one Palestinian boy by the
Mujahidin Brigades in Gaza. In addition, the recruitment and use of one boy by
Hamas’ Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades in 2019 was verified in 2021. In Gaza,
Palestinian Islamic Jihad’s Al-Quds Brigades, Hamas’ Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades,
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine Abu Ali Mustafa Brigades and
Palestinian Mujahidin Movement Mujahidin Brigades, organized “summer camps”
for adults and children as young as 14, exposing them to military content and
activities.
86. The United Nations verified the detention of 637 Palestinian children for alleged
security offences by Israeli forces in the occupied West Bank, including 557 in East
Jerusalem. Among those children, 85 reported ill-treatment and breaches of due
process by Israeli forces while in detention, with 75 per cent reporting having
experienced physical violence. On October 20 2024 05:01 Magic Powers wrote:
Interesting.
Hamas are not openly advertising their child soldier recruitment program. We know with certainty they're recruiting a large number of child soldiers.
Israel is not openly advocating for Palestinian genocide. We know with certainty they're not committing genocide. Wow another terrible strawman good job! I look forward to your next post about quitting the thread until X and or stopping responding to some one and lasting hours or less. What could you possibly referring to new Liqudian? I chuckled. Show nested quote +On October 22 2024 06:57 WombaT wrote:
I mean there is the slight problem that, idk I’m not a Jew from 1945 but I’m not sure I would have been enthusiastic in having a newly established enclave in that particular area
I don’t personally think establishing a state where other folks live based on an old, old ethnoreligious claim for a disparately spread group of people was ever the best of ideas.
I’ve long thought the morally courageous thing would have been for various countries to just stop being anti-Semitic shitbags to varying degrees and embrace their Jewish populations as part of the social fabric.
On the flipside to that, that people went through trauma that’s unfathomable to any modern reader. You can read as much as you want, have a great knowledge of the history but I mean, we haven’t lived anything remotely comparable. Would you take a ‘ok well this won’t happen again it’ll be fine’ versus the alternative of a Jewish state? I sure as fuck don’t blame many for going for the latter.
Going back to GH’s point I don’t think anyone really has some right to a homeland. Especially the older and more distant the claim is. If you’ve some diffuse population, the various constituent parts should be enfranchised and able to exercise whatever culture. Maybe over time your nation state changes (I envisage it taking a while but I may reside in Ireland one day, politically)
I mean it’s not like fucking up something in a database, reverting to an old backup and fixing it. There’s no rewind button to fix many historical inequities without causing more.
This does go the other way though in that to me Israel exists so, you can’t really rewind the clock on that.
The dilemma you point out as well as the reality that to correct past injustices will only lead to present ones are both things I completely agree on. The abominable injustice done to the Palestinians as well as the desperation of the Jews that faced extermination in many countries are both simple facts of history. An issue most overlook when putting up the principle that "no one has the right to a homeland" is, that this principle then must also apply to Palestinians who now claim the land where Israel exists as their homeland. The more times passes, the weaker this claim becomes, given it was there in the first place after the war was lost. We will soon enter a phase where no one who was alive in 1947 will be left on this planet. By the way, I didn't see another response by you - just to make sure, I didn't overlook anything.
Pretty much, us Brits have been in Ireland for hundreds and hundreds of years, and were shitbags on many an occasion. But if we took redress to its extremes you’d just see one people displaced
It’s tricky to find a standard that isn’t somewhat arbitrary of course. If Russia wins this war in Ukraine for example, I wouldn’t say that Ukrainians have some right of return
Pluralist states can mitigate these problems too of course. It’s super conceivable, and indeed is largely in practice in somewhere like Northern Ireland. There are religious, cultural and national identity differences, but broadly folks are more similarly wired than different.
It’s difficult to envisage a genuinely pluralistic Israeli/Palestine state happening any time soon.
|
On October 24 2024 23:27 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2024 21:54 Acrofales wrote:On October 24 2024 21:34 Billyboy wrote:On October 24 2024 16:09 Jockmcplop wrote:
Just a quick point premo:
The reason I don't accept single instances of child soldiers in Hamas as evidence that they employ enough child soldiers to artificially inflate child casualty numbers is because it isn't evidence of that, and there never has been any evidence of that.
The documents billyboy posted seem to prove the opposite, saying that there isn't any evidence of systematic child soldier usage.
The High numbers of casualties of women have nothing to do with their military service and the number of children dead has very little to do with child soldiers. It has everything to do with the Hamas (and all Iranian armies) military doctrine of putting their military infrastructure in high civilian areas (a war crime, but what do they care their entire strategy is war crime based) so Israel is forced to either not attack or kill civilians and enrage the world. And then Israel's military doctrine changing post Oct 7th to not caring about where the military target is and what and who is collateral damage. Premo's point was that that Israel was showing amazing restraint because there were so few civilian casualties, compared to other examples of asymmetrical urban warfare. You're saying the opposite. I don't think anyone disagrees with your point. E: I mean, we disagree with the basic premise that this is totally fine and the only way Israel could reasonably act here, but not that that will result in high civilian casualties, which was what the whole point was about. I'm not sure if I'm saying the opposite, I have not read all of premo's posts or the rebuttals. I'm simply saying it is true that Hamas uses child soldiers directly. But it is far more the choice of where Hamas puts their military assets and the IDF attacking any way. To your edit, the premise you stated is not mine. Either you are making it up for me or you are trusting the others who are making it up for me. Feel free to find it the words I have actually written, I'm certain you won't.
Fair enough, you weren't giving your own value judgement here about Israel's actions, just posting a false dichotomy to explain it. Israel could (a) not retaliate (b) be absolute monsters murdering all civilians (and enrage the world). As if there werent' also options to do something entirely different.
|
On October 24 2024 23:56 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2024 23:27 Billyboy wrote:On October 24 2024 21:54 Acrofales wrote:On October 24 2024 21:34 Billyboy wrote:On October 24 2024 16:09 Jockmcplop wrote:
Just a quick point premo:
The reason I don't accept single instances of child soldiers in Hamas as evidence that they employ enough child soldiers to artificially inflate child casualty numbers is because it isn't evidence of that, and there never has been any evidence of that.
The documents billyboy posted seem to prove the opposite, saying that there isn't any evidence of systematic child soldier usage.
The High numbers of casualties of women have nothing to do with their military service and the number of children dead has very little to do with child soldiers. It has everything to do with the Hamas (and all Iranian armies) military doctrine of putting their military infrastructure in high civilian areas (a war crime, but what do they care their entire strategy is war crime based) so Israel is forced to either not attack or kill civilians and enrage the world. And then Israel's military doctrine changing post Oct 7th to not caring about where the military target is and what and who is collateral damage. Premo's point was that that Israel was showing amazing restraint because there were so few civilian casualties, compared to other examples of asymmetrical urban warfare. You're saying the opposite. I don't think anyone disagrees with your point. E: I mean, we disagree with the basic premise that this is totally fine and the only way Israel could reasonably act here, but not that that will result in high civilian casualties, which was what the whole point was about. I'm not sure if I'm saying the opposite, I have not read all of premo's posts or the rebuttals. I'm simply saying it is true that Hamas uses child soldiers directly. But it is far more the choice of where Hamas puts their military assets and the IDF attacking any way. To your edit, the premise you stated is not mine. Either you are making it up for me or you are trusting the others who are making it up for me. Feel free to find it the words I have actually written, I'm certain you won't. Fair enough, you weren't giving your own value judgement here about Israel's actions, just posting a false dichotomy to explain it. Israel could (a) not retaliate (b) be absolute monsters murdering all civilians (and enrage the world). As if there werent' also options to do something entirely different.
Super wrong again, you might want to stop making assumptions because you are not good at it. Israel could have done all sorts of things I'm pointing out that they did do. I'm not sure why pointing out the actual facts gets so many on this thread so mad. I guess it is easier than having to live in the world of complexity and greys.
Here is another thing when thinking that these Iranian proxies have the peoples best interest. Look at Hezbollah's treatment of the Sunni Muslims in Syria. These guys are not freedom fighters fighting against oppression. Believing that leads people to a bunch of false conclusions. It is true that Israel is doing awful things to Palestinians it is also true that the groups they are fighting against are doing awful things to Palestinians and a whole bunch of other groups of oppressed people.
|
On October 24 2024 17:13 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2024 16:56 PremoBeats wrote:On October 24 2024 16:09 Jockmcplop wrote:
Just a quick point premo:
The reason I don't accept single instances of child soldiers in Hamas as evidence that they employ enough child soldiers to artificially inflate child casualty numbers is because it isn't evidence of that, and there never has been any evidence of that.
The documents billyboy posted seem to prove the opposite, saying that there isn't any evidence of systematic child soldier usage.
We can discuss, if summer camps which are proven by video footage, already constitutes systematic use of children as soldiers or simply for future usage. The problem stays the same imo: Children get incorporated into the ranks, when they should not. We can also discuss, if 170 enlisted children already counts as "systematic". Or that the undocumented numbers probably is much higher and will never be proven. I went over the article by searching for Hamas. I didn't see that opposite you speak of. What exactly do you mean? And simply because the UN doesn't find evidence, doesn't mean it isn't happening... for reference see UNIFIL who supposedly didn't notice the digging of terror tunnels by Hezbollah 100 meters away from their compound. And it doesn't even necessarily need to be malice or ill will towards Israel/good will towards Gaza. Proving systematic usage of children as messengers, suicide bombers, observers, etc. is simply hard to prove. Show nested quote +We can discuss, if summer camps which are proven by video footage, already constitutes systematic use of children as soldiers or simply for future usage.
The problem stays the same imo: Children get incorporated into the ranks, when they should not.
We can also discuss, if 170 enlisted children already counts as "systematic".
Or that the undocumented numbers probably is much higher and will never be proven. Remember this conversation started as a branch from a conversation about the ridiculously high number of child deaths in the conflict. 170 enlisted children isn't anywhere near enough to be responsible for artificially bumping up the figures or explaining or justifying the problem. 'Probably much higher', given the bias with which you argue (no offense, I'm also biased), doesn't really say anything. Is it 'systematic'? Maybe. Again given that we can't prove it it comes down to just insisting that its true with no evidence, in which case its no wonder people are arguing against this stance. Does it look bad having training camps for teenagers? Yeah, but like I said before my school did military training for teenagers every week for the last 3 years I was there. Clever use of a camera and some editing and you could make that look very sinister indeed. Show nested quote +
And simply because the UN doesn't find evidence, doesn't mean it isn't happening... for reference see UNIFIL who supposedly didn't notice the digging of terror tunnels by Hezbollah 100 meters away from their compound.
Again you're technically right in this statement, but whether or not you are right says nothing about Hamas use of child soldiers. The most we can really get out of all of this is 'they might be', or 'I assume they are and expect everyone to also assume that'. My argument has never been that they don't use child soldiers, or that doing so isn't wrong in every instance. My argument is that we have no idea whether that means twenty kids being used as messengers, or thousands of them charging the enemy with AKs. It certainly isn't widely reported as a big problem anyway, so I'm very reticent to accept the insistence that it is in lieu of evidence. This puts us at an impasse, which is fine and I'm happy to leave it there.
It sure did start because of the mentioning of high child casualties. But all my other possible explanations were mysteriously disregarded and people started to talk about there being a systemic method in place or not, instead of all the other factors. It sometimes feels like people simply want to ignore any counter-arguments that would explain certain phenomena that are unique to Gaza, simply to keep shitting more on Israel.
Tbf, I don't really think that active child soldiers play an important role in the question as to why there is such a high minor casualty number in this conflict. Although we still don't know the unaccounted number. UN having no proof of that, is no proof, not equal to there being only that amount of child soldiers.
But yeah... for all I care: no impasse 
I simply find it ridiculous how some people questioned the thought of child soldiers entirely.
On October 24 2024 17:33 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2024 15:52 PremoBeats wrote:The argumentation of these last couple of pages is so fucked up, that is hard to come up with a moderate response. You guys do realize that being a child soldier is not only about active combat, right? We have documentation of minors being used as smugglers We have documented summer camps of indoctrination and fighting for minors We have documentation of minors being used as suicide bombers We have documentation of children watching firing mortars from extremely close distance, so that if the mortar gets hit by a rocket, the children would die too We have ridiculous amounts of tunnels under schools, where children unknowingly are put in danger. And these are only the cases that actually surfaced… the number of unreported cases naturally is much higher due to the nature of the phenomenon. But somehow all of this isn’t proof that children are put in harm’s way actively or used as soldiers? Or that all of this will lead to higher casualty rates among children, especially as the Gazan population is so child-heavy? And it is completely implausible that these exact minors listed above are also used as messengers or spies/observers, even if there is no actual proof? How would one even prove this, if not for catching a minor observer/messenger/smuggler/suicide bomber and at the same time having Hamas’ documentation of the minor being in their ranks? Are you people seriously suggesting that these kids act on their own? That they simply find explosives on the street or miraculously know where the terrorists hide and out of pure kindness they access damage situations and report them back out of their own agency? Seriously, your hatred towards Israel is blinding this discussion to such extreme levels that it is hard to find words. You hand wave away “singular incidents” of children being used, but intellectually are not even remotely able to do the same for Israel when comparing overall numbers to singular incidents you so happily cite and post. At least more and more users here openly admit, that they simple are here to shit on Israel. (I seriously wonder if the same people bring equal effort and spirit to the table when talking about conflicts that are much worse in almost any regard). https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdfWe have known for years that Hamas is using minors and civilians as human shields to inflate casualty numbers. How all of this is being questioned now, seems completely absurd. If you would put only 10% of your let’s-hate-on-Israel-time in actually understanding how much these tactics inflate civilian casualties and especially minors, you’d understand the context of the statistics and the difficulties the IDF faces a lot better. On October 22 2024 04:22 GreenHorizons wrote:
I don't know that we should accept at face value that "Israel has a right to exist". It's at least worth further examination imo.
Why would you want to examine any country's right to exist? Or only Israel's? On what principle would you challenge this right and why wouldn't the same principle be applied to other countries? On October 20 2024 05:36 WombaT wrote:On October 20 2024 05:20 Billyboy wrote:On October 20 2024 04:57 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 20 2024 04:53 Billyboy wrote:On October 20 2024 04:51 Billyboy wrote:On October 20 2024 04:30 Salazarz wrote:On October 20 2024 04:24 Billyboy wrote:
How many are under 12, 12-15, 16-18 that data just plain does not exist. But what is certain is they exist and Hamas does no age checking. If a child by our definition of under 18 shows up and is capable of doing what Hamas wants, they are in.
Have you got any sources on that, or is that just what you believe? On October 20 2024 04:24 Billyboy wrote:Can you quote any excuse I've made? Can you point out where I justify any dead kid? Of course not. What happened is you asked if Palestine used Child soldiers. I answered factually that Hamas did, you were somehow completely shocked by well known, easily verifiable fact and have created some narrative to keep you hate peaked or whatever your not sensible reason is. By your definition of 'factual truth', Israel also uses child soldiers (which is basically how this entire line of conversation started). Of course, that definition is absolutely worthless for the purpose of this discussion as without delving into details like how often, in what capacity, or why, it really doesn't add anything other than 'yeah war sucks and people sometimes do shitty things in war' which is what everyone here at this point surely understands already. Do I have any sources on them not having a registry of their soldiers that include demographics? No, because sources on things that don't exist, don't exist. But If you are able to find one, even without ages that just showed how many troops and other support they have lost that would be fantastic. The only things I can see are either IDF, which are questionable at best, or from Hamas that every single person is a civilian, even less useful. There is lots of info on the Israeli stuff, more even because they are a democracy that follows much of the rules of the world (and even reports when they break them). Check the source below, you can cherry pick it how you like! (Or try something new and read all the info, your call). https://documents.un.org/doc/undoc/gen/n22/344/71/pdf/n2234471.pdf On October 20 2024 04:37 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 20 2024 04:24 Billyboy wrote:On October 19 2024 23:09 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 19 2024 22:47 Billyboy wrote:
[quote]
The young ones that is the case, that or suicide bombers. The older ones (still children by our definition) are having kids, raising them and joining the Hamas military wing. This is really not in dispute anywhere. Well other than here. There is lots made of it, just not certain "news" channels.
This seems to be very in doubt. There's been instances for sure, but according to multiple sources, the worst of this was around 2000-2005 and even then an investigation found no systematic use of child soldiers. Sure you can see the Hamas propaganda videos, and the brainwashing is almost certainly real, but they aren't fielding an army of child soldiers. If you can provide a source that isn't based in Israel I'll take a look though. You are never going to get exact numbers because Hamas is a terrorist org and not a regular government, the same way you are not getting any sort of numbers on casualties compared to civilians. I'd say amnesty international is a pretty decent source and not Israeli. But to whether there is 100 or 1000 or whatever who knows. How many are under 12, 12-15, 16-18 that data just plain does not exist. But what is certain is they exist and Hamas does no age checking. If a child by our definition of under 18 shows up and is capable of doing what Hamas wants, they are in. Just so you know, this also means that the UK employs child soldiers, in a much more systematic and legislated way than Hamas does. No it does not. But yes other countries use under 18 legislated and systematic, more is you making it up since we don't have that data and since no 14 year olds in the UK are suicide bombers, or caught carrying ammo and pipe bombs and stuff it is a terribly loaded presumption. What are you on about? You JUST got finished saying that because the odd 17 year old might get a gun from Hamas, that means they employ child soldiers. We confirmed that investigations have found no systematic use of child soldiers by Hamas, and yet you just keep insisting that there is with zero evidence. Post evidence or stop making stuff up. Also Israel follows the rules of the world? Are you kidding me? I suppose the fact that the UN, the ICC and most international law experts disagree with you is just because they are all anti-semitic lol You not reading the sources is not me saying that. When I said the 17 year old thing that is one end of the spectrum not the only thing. You are the best of the bunch here in having a reasonable conversation but it is still near impossible when you are looking for loopholes or reasons to be mad instead of at the actual information. It is not like I'm not providing sources that also provide tons of info on the what the IDF is doing or the worse things that the Israeli settlers are doing as well. Again not my problem if you don't read them. It is factual that Hamas and all of Iranian proxies use child soldiers, it is also factual that they use less total and as a percentage than in some of the African conflicts. It is also factual that when you look into Child soldiers they also talk about the use of them as human shields, but I don't want to bring that up (even though it is extremely true) because you guys somehow think that makes the childrens deaths acceptable, even though it obviously does not. Here is another quote. In 2005 Amnesty International condemned the use of children by Palestinian militant groups saying: "Palestinian armed groups have repeatedly shown total disregard for the most fundamental human rights, notably the right to life, by deliberately targeting Israeli civilians and by using Palestinian children in armed attacks." Here is some of the info from the second source. The United Nations verified 2,934 grave violations against 1,208 Palestinian
children and 9 Israeli children (915 boys, 302 girls) in the occupied West Bank,
including East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip and Israel.
85. The United Nations verified the recruitment of one Palestinian boy by the
Mujahidin Brigades in Gaza. In addition, the recruitment and use of one boy by
Hamas’ Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades in 2019 was verified in 2021. In Gaza,
Palestinian Islamic Jihad’s Al-Quds Brigades, Hamas’ Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades,
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine Abu Ali Mustafa Brigades and
Palestinian Mujahidin Movement Mujahidin Brigades, organized “summer camps”
for adults and children as young as 14, exposing them to military content and
activities.
86. The United Nations verified the detention of 637 Palestinian children for alleged
security offences by Israeli forces in the occupied West Bank, including 557 in East
Jerusalem. Among those children, 85 reported ill-treatment and breaches of due
process by Israeli forces while in detention, with 75 per cent reporting having
experienced physical violence. On October 20 2024 05:01 Magic Powers wrote:
Interesting.
Hamas are not openly advertising their child soldier recruitment program. We know with certainty they're recruiting a large number of child soldiers.
Israel is not openly advocating for Palestinian genocide. We know with certainty they're not committing genocide. Wow another terrible strawman good job! I look forward to your next post about quitting the thread until X and or stopping responding to some one and lasting hours or less. What could you possibly referring to new Liqudian? I chuckled. On October 22 2024 06:57 WombaT wrote:
I mean there is the slight problem that, idk I’m not a Jew from 1945 but I’m not sure I would have been enthusiastic in having a newly established enclave in that particular area
I don’t personally think establishing a state where other folks live based on an old, old ethnoreligious claim for a disparately spread group of people was ever the best of ideas.
I’ve long thought the morally courageous thing would have been for various countries to just stop being anti-Semitic shitbags to varying degrees and embrace their Jewish populations as part of the social fabric.
On the flipside to that, that people went through trauma that’s unfathomable to any modern reader. You can read as much as you want, have a great knowledge of the history but I mean, we haven’t lived anything remotely comparable. Would you take a ‘ok well this won’t happen again it’ll be fine’ versus the alternative of a Jewish state? I sure as fuck don’t blame many for going for the latter.
Going back to GH’s point I don’t think anyone really has some right to a homeland. Especially the older and more distant the claim is. If you’ve some diffuse population, the various constituent parts should be enfranchised and able to exercise whatever culture. Maybe over time your nation state changes (I envisage it taking a while but I may reside in Ireland one day, politically)
I mean it’s not like fucking up something in a database, reverting to an old backup and fixing it. There’s no rewind button to fix many historical inequities without causing more.
This does go the other way though in that to me Israel exists so, you can’t really rewind the clock on that.
The dilemma you point out as well as the reality that to correct past injustices will only lead to present ones are both things I completely agree on. The abominable injustice done to the Palestinians as well as the desperation of the Jews that faced extermination in many countries are both simple facts of history. An issue most overlook when putting up the principle that "no one has the right to a homeland" is, that this principle then must also apply to Palestinians who now claim the land where Israel exists as their homeland. The more times passes, the weaker this claim becomes, given it was there in the first place after the war was lost. We will soon enter a phase where no one who was alive in 1947 will be left on this planet. By the way, I didn't see another response by you - just to make sure, I didn't overlook anything. On October 23 2024 16:26 stilt wrote:
I wonder what would be the final death toll of this mass slaughter ? 200k ? 1 millions ? Maybe even more
When would you expect these numbers to become a reality? Next century? Because the fatalities peaked at the end of the initial phase and have been steadily going down since then. If the projection comes true, you'd probably have to until 2100 for the casualty rate to reach 1 million. On October 19 2024 19:29 Magic Powers wrote:
Israel creates child soldiers with violence and oppression. It's only logical that Hamas has some in their ranks. There's not much more to say about it. The idea that Hamas is responsible for the radicalization of a child who lost its family and subsequently wants to destroy Israel is fairly absurd. Their deaths are on Israel, even moreso than the deaths of adult soldiers. Seriously your commenting gets worse and worse and your text as usual contains several fallacies. 1. False Cause (Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc): While Israeli military actions may contribute to conditions foster anger and resentment, this does not justify or directly lead to Hamas's recruitment of child soldiers. The responsibility for child soldiers lies with the organization that recruits and uses them, which in this case is Hamas, and it is a violation of international law. Also: Hamas would attack Israel simply for existing as explained in their charter - the ensuing fighting would lead to reasons to foster hate towards Israel anyway. 2. Moral Equivalence: You suggest that because children may have suffered due to Israeli actions, it is logical for them to join Hamas, and that Hamas is not primarily responsible for their radicalization. This commits a moral equivalence fallacy, where it equates the suffering inflicted by one party with the actions of another. Using children in conflict as soldiers or shields is a war crime, regardless of the underlying reasons for their radicalization. The suffering of Palestinian children under Israeli policies does not negate Hamas's responsibility for recruiting them. 3. Appeal to Emotion: You heavily appeal to emotional reasoning by referencing the tragic loss of family and suggest that this would naturally drive children to "destroy Israel." While emotions are a significant factor in conflicts, this over-simplifies a complex issue. It downplays Hamas's role in systematically indoctrinating and recruiting children into its ranks, placing sole blame on Israel for the outcome, without recognizing the agency and responsibilities of Hamas. Again: They would also do it, if Israel simply existed, as it displayed in their charter. 4. Red Herring: The statement that "their deaths are on Israel, even more so than adult soldiers" diverts attention from the issue of Hamas's use of child soldiers by blaming Israel entirely for their deaths. This distracts from Hamas's violation of international laws concerning child soldiers and their use of human shields, focusing instead on Israel’s military actions without addressing the immediate issue of recruitment. 5. Straw Man Fallacy: "The idea that Hamas is responsible for the radicalization of a child... is fairly absurd" sets up a straw man by suggesting that the argument against Hamas's responsibility for child soldiers is about radicalization alone, ignoring their active recruitment and use of children in conflict. The real issue is not just about children being radicalized, but that Hamas actively trains and uses children in military roles, as pointed out above. On October 24 2024 08:23 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 24 2024 06:29 Elroi wrote:
Why is it in bad taste? It seems to be an appropriate word to describe the murder/torture/rape spree that Hamas perpetrated, which targeted Jews? Because pogroms were neighbors targeting neighbors, which who they had always lived in peace, because of religious hatred. Not a terror attack from an oppressed people living in an open air prison against the citizen of a country that steals their land. The hamas attacks were horrendous, but they didn’t kill those people because they don’t like Jews, and they didn’t kill their peaceful neighbors with whom they lived in peace. You can chose to call every act of violence where the jews are on the receiving end a « pogrom ». Then the word becomes a slogan. Call it a massacre, call it a terror attack. Don’t call it a pogrom. It’s not a pogrom. Absolutely ludicrous. It is stated in Hamas’ charter from 1988 that they want to destroy the state of Israel. It also cites jihad as a religious duty for Muslims to reclaim Palestine, contains anti-Semitic references, equating the conflict with a broader war against Jews and includes language about fighting non-believers and infidels. Article 7: "The Day of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will. hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say, O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him". Article 15: "When our enemies usurp Islamic land, jihad becomes a duty binding on all Muslims. With regard to the fight against Jewish people, who have usurped Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad will be raised." Conspiracy elements include: "They stirred revolutions in various parts of the world... they were behind the French Revolution, the Communist Revolution, and most revolutions we heard and hear about... They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate... they were behind World War II." Why don't you think a single jew lives in Gaza? Because they'd be progrom'ed the minute they'd show up in Gaza city. Hamas has been hell bent to murder Jews and destroy Israel since decades - of course these people were slaughtered because they were Jews. Seriously, some people here are so god damn ignorant and uneducated about this conflict, it is hard to believe, how you formulate such nonsensical ideas with such vigor. A lot of text with one link, a old nato rapport as a proof ? I would have expected a bit more from someone who is so knowledgeable. Israeli has a policy of separation between jews and arabs since 2005. The disengagement on gaza is a unilateral rupture of oslo accord during whose main focus is the separation of palestinians and israeli population the palestinians are still subjugated to israeli authority in the west bank. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4154798.stmWith this very beautiful speech about the weak and the strong made by ariel sharon, elwood would approve. Despite the fact the PA has collaborated with the israeli, abbas even threw out the one who were opposed to this like Kaddoumi. It didn't deter the spoilation of the lands, water, mass imprisonnement and even this : 2 years old being murdered by israelis without consequence : https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-65917357.ampFor the water : https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/Oh and here what happens to their school : https://www.euractiv.fr/section/international/news/une-ecole-financee-par-lue-detruite-en-cisjordanie/A school financed by ue getting destroyed. Meanwhile, the war is cultural as well : arab cimeteries are either destroyed or transformed as touristic attraction : https://geoconfluences.ens-lyon.fr/informations-scientifiques/dossiers-thematiques/fait-religieux-et-construction-de-l-espace/corpus-documentaire/jerusalem-une-guerre-pour-l-eternitehttps://www.leparisien.fr/video/video-des-tombes-palestiniennes-detruites-pour-la-construction-dun-parc-a-jerusalem-29-10-2021-5D55HIJPSVCC3OSOUPTKZANWMA.phpBut considering you don't even acknowledge any apartheid which has been characterized as such by independant ngo and human right organization, you're a lost cause. Palestinians are literaly in cage, here is the checkpoints repertoried by a israeli ngo B'Tselem. https://www.btselem.org/freedom_of_movement/checkpoints_and_forbidden_roadsThe official death toll cannot be true, there is no way to know how many people are dead in gaza, that's not me saying that out of nothing but specialist of this kind of question lile the epidemiologists : https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-024-02508-0That's why the lancet by comparing gaza to other conflicts suggested in july the number of 180k https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)01169-3/fulltextMeanwhile people who actually have been in gaza all state they have never faced such a humanitarian disaster : https://www.msf.fr/gaza-nos-reponses-a-vos-questions https://www.actioncontrelafaim.org/temoignage/a-gaza-notre-intervention-est-soumise-a-un-niveau-de-defis-et-de-contraintes-sans-precedent/https://www.publicsenat.fr/actualites/international/gaza-raphael-pitti-et-des-medecins-humanitaires-racontent-lhorreur-et-reclament-un-cessez-le-feu-immediatThe israeli army is destroying water plants and destroying the healthcare system of gaza by capturing, killing and torturing medecins : https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/05/un-expert-horrified-death-gazan-orthopedic-surgeon-israeli-detentionHere is the destroyng water plants/wells : https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/destruction-gaza-water-wells-deepens-palestinian-misery-2024-07-30/I even publish a few posts ago a tik tok of israeli solfiers proudly destroying a water plant. Finally, a jewish historian speciliazed in the shoah actually wrote this : https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/13/israel-gaza-historian-omer-bartovSo, based on these informations provided by experts and people on the fields like humanitarians, NU observers and those barbaric israeli soldiers, I indeed conclude there are way more deaths and considering there is no end in sight, there will be even more But for sure, the tendancies in the western world to pretend every conflict in the middle east is religious-based is indeed the sign of a greater knowledge about the region and not a tentative to avoid valid criticism of some policies, this is the same semantic used during the war of iraq. In conlusion, you don't know much about this conflict or middle east in general, you're a negationist parroting the propaganda made by the people who are actively doing the genocide. There are a enormous amount of evidence of war crimes and apartheid which are corrobarated by israeli society (declaration of their scholars, politics, religious authority and so on, there a shit tons on works and links about it as well). But as people deny the shoah despite these overwhelming evidence, we will deny it as well, right ? Nb : you still don't explain why after one year of constant bombardement which don't prevent israeli strikes and don't provoke international sanctions, hamas or hezbollah would still use human shields, are they vilains from your cartoons ?
I usually don't post links, unless people ask for evidence, as it is too much to ask of a generic forum user to discuss entire articles or the opinion of others. Why you think that I don't know about counter arguments is interesting. Or irritating.
But we will see... I'd be surprised if the death count even comes close to 200k.
I still don't see any genocide or Apartheid happening. I am happy to discuss with you how the STC and general casualty numbers in my opinion don't imply a genocide or why I found the arguments of people who call Gaza and the West Bank Apartheid regions not convincing. Make your case and I am happy to engage. But I won't address an armada of articles. For that, I don't have the time... that doesn't mean that I am unaware of differing opinions though.
On October 24 2024 21:54 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2024 21:34 Billyboy wrote:On October 24 2024 16:09 Jockmcplop wrote:
Just a quick point premo:
The reason I don't accept single instances of child soldiers in Hamas as evidence that they employ enough child soldiers to artificially inflate child casualty numbers is because it isn't evidence of that, and there never has been any evidence of that.
The documents billyboy posted seem to prove the opposite, saying that there isn't any evidence of systematic child soldier usage.
The High numbers of casualties of women have nothing to do with their military service and the number of children dead has very little to do with child soldiers. It has everything to do with the Hamas (and all Iranian armies) military doctrine of putting their military infrastructure in high civilian areas (a war crime, but what do they care their entire strategy is war crime based) so Israel is forced to either not attack or kill civilians and enrage the world. And then Israel's military doctrine changing post Oct 7th to not caring about where the military target is and what and who is collateral damage. Premo's point was that that Israel was showing amazing restraint because there were so few civilian casualties, compared to other examples of asymmetrical urban warfare. You're saying the opposite. I don't think anyone disagrees with your point. E: I mean, we disagree with the basic premise that this is totally fine and the only way Israel could reasonably act here, but not that that will result in high civilian casualties, which was what the whole point was about.
That was never my point.
I can only repeat it over and over till you guys get it.
I never said there are "so few civilian casualties". The number is incredibly high. My point was and still is: The IDF is being extremely efficient at killing terrorists when comparing the soldier-to-civilian casualty rate. This is a relative metric - I never talked about absolute ones.
But you probably don't want to hear what I say or engage, as I spelled it out in my last reply to you as well:
"I never made any "claims of "historically low civilian casualties"".
I said several times that the IDF's efficiency in taking out terrorists is extremely commendable when comparing the numbers to similar conflicts though.
And yes, confounding factors (like a high percentage of children) can explain the context of data sets (high child deaths), as they are variables that can distort or influence the apparent relationship between metrics that are studied."
@WombaT:
Do you have an opinion on the comparability of other urban warfare conflicts of the soldier-to-civilian casualty rate? Or the reasons for the proportionality disparity?
|
On October 24 2024 05:28 Elroi wrote:
Israel just killed the next (current?) Hezbollah leader, Hashem Safieddine. They are really speedrunning Hezbollah at this point, easier than anyone could have predicted. That initial pager attack must have been a real knock out blow. It's a stark contrast to the sluggish reaction to the October 7 pogrom.
This is a great point.
They are really doing what they said they would.
Now we can all judge how effective that turns out to be.
My bet is that terrorism will disappear from the face of planet Earth and we'll all live in harmony.
|
Well that sounds like a little much to hope for, even though I firmly believe in the IDF. Maybe northern Israel becomes inhabitable again and the Israeli people won't need to fear being wiped out by the 200 000 rockets of hizbollah anymore, or even tolerate their monthly barrage of rockets. Not quite world peace, perhaps, but also a good outcome.
|
Northern Ireland23325 Posts
On October 25 2024 02:21 PremoBeats wrote:
@WombaT:
Do you have an opinion on the comparability of other urban warfare conflicts of the soldier-to-civilian casualty rate? Or the reasons for the proportionality disparity?
As I’ve said, I’m not sure some of these conflicts are that comparable.
I’m not a military buff as some are in these forums, my general impression is that the power disparity between participants, geography of the war zones and Israel’s tech capabilities are rather different.
At the other end of the scale, it’s also not quite a very limited counter-insurgency operation either. It’s clearly orders of magnitudes beyond something like the Troubles in Northern Ireland
Depending on the objectives and underpinning ideologies, which can influence things, my broad rule of thumb would be the closer the levels of power projection between participants, the harder you have to fight and the less discerning you can afford to be in terms of targets
I’m happy to concede I don’t know, or have some particularly informed position on this. Israel’s numbers stack up well if one considers these listed as comparable conflicts. I’m unsure just how comparable they really are, across the board, though they have commonalities.
Which ultimately leaves one with a problem if you want to make a comparative argument in the reverse as well. Is Israel’s conduct reasonable or not, well what does one compare it to?
If you have:
1. Conflict A where both participants are vaguely equivalent in power, and lack tons of sophisticated surveillance and precision munitions, going at it.
2. Conflict B where there’s a giant gap in the ability of either side to damage the other respectively, where one has tons of sophisticated surveillance and precision munitions.
Unless, in conflict B the more powerful participant actually wants to wipe their opponents out, I think you’d just naturally see more civilian deaths in conflict A
It’s quite a lot to say I don’t really know, but hey I don’t really know
|
The very long delay in Israel's response to Iran is interesting.
The first potential reason is that the retaliation is likely to be larger scale than the previous one back in April, and likely to receive its own response, so it would require much more preparations such as moving defensive installations around and attempting to further weaken Hezbollah beforehand.
The second option would be that the Biden admin is pressuring Israel to delay until after the US elections so it doesn't hurt Harris. While Israel has no reason to prefer Harris winning, if such a request was made and ignored by Netanyahu and then Harris won anyway, it would be a major diplomatic blunder.
There was also a leak of US intelligence assessing Israel's retaliation plans and movements a week ago, basically US surveillance information on Israel. The leak being intentional to delay Israel's response is a little conspiratorial but not out of the question
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
