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Northern Ireland25216 Posts
On October 20 2024 05:20 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2024 04:57 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 20 2024 04:53 Billyboy wrote:On October 20 2024 04:51 Billyboy wrote:On October 20 2024 04:30 Salazarz wrote:On October 20 2024 04:24 Billyboy wrote:
How many are under 12, 12-15, 16-18 that data just plain does not exist. But what is certain is they exist and Hamas does no age checking. If a child by our definition of under 18 shows up and is capable of doing what Hamas wants, they are in.
Have you got any sources on that, or is that just what you believe? On October 20 2024 04:24 Billyboy wrote:Can you quote any excuse I've made? Can you point out where I justify any dead kid? Of course not. What happened is you asked if Palestine used Child soldiers. I answered factually that Hamas did, you were somehow completely shocked by well known, easily verifiable fact and have created some narrative to keep you hate peaked or whatever your not sensible reason is. By your definition of 'factual truth', Israel also uses child soldiers (which is basically how this entire line of conversation started). Of course, that definition is absolutely worthless for the purpose of this discussion as without delving into details like how often, in what capacity, or why, it really doesn't add anything other than 'yeah war sucks and people sometimes do shitty things in war' which is what everyone here at this point surely understands already. Do I have any sources on them not having a registry of their soldiers that include demographics? No, because sources on things that don't exist, don't exist. But If you are able to find one, even without ages that just showed how many troops and other support they have lost that would be fantastic. The only things I can see are either IDF, which are questionable at best, or from Hamas that every single person is a civilian, even less useful. There is lots of info on the Israeli stuff, more even because they are a democracy that follows much of the rules of the world (and even reports when they break them). Check the source below, you can cherry pick it how you like! (Or try something new and read all the info, your call). https://documents.un.org/doc/undoc/gen/n22/344/71/pdf/n2234471.pdf On October 20 2024 04:37 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 20 2024 04:24 Billyboy wrote:On October 19 2024 23:09 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 19 2024 22:47 Billyboy wrote:On October 19 2024 21:58 Jockmcplop wrote:
I'd think there would be much more made of it if Hamas was deploying a child army.
Its more likely that any kids involved aren't actually armed or anything and are throwing rocks and basically acting like bait. That's Hamas tactics for you. The young ones that is the case, that or suicide bombers. The older ones (still children by our definition) are having kids, raising them and joining the Hamas military wing. This is really not in dispute anywhere. Well other than here. There is lots made of it, just not certain "news" channels. This seems to be very in doubt. There's been instances for sure, but according to multiple sources, the worst of this was around 2000-2005 and even then an investigation found no systematic use of child soldiers. Sure you can see the Hamas propaganda videos, and the brainwashing is almost certainly real, but they aren't fielding an army of child soldiers. If you can provide a source that isn't based in Israel I'll take a look though. You are never going to get exact numbers because Hamas is a terrorist org and not a regular government, the same way you are not getting any sort of numbers on casualties compared to civilians. I'd say amnesty international is a pretty decent source and not Israeli. But to whether there is 100 or 1000 or whatever who knows. How many are under 12, 12-15, 16-18 that data just plain does not exist. But what is certain is they exist and Hamas does no age checking. If a child by our definition of under 18 shows up and is capable of doing what Hamas wants, they are in. Just so you know, this also means that the UK employs child soldiers, in a much more systematic and legislated way than Hamas does. No it does not. But yes other countries use under 18 legislated and systematic, more is you making it up since we don't have that data and since no 14 year olds in the UK are suicide bombers, or caught carrying ammo and pipe bombs and stuff it is a terribly loaded presumption. What are you on about? You JUST got finished saying that because the odd 17 year old might get a gun from Hamas, that means they employ child soldiers. We confirmed that investigations have found no systematic use of child soldiers by Hamas, and yet you just keep insisting that there is with zero evidence. Post evidence or stop making stuff up. Also Israel follows the rules of the world? Are you kidding me? I suppose the fact that the UN, the ICC and most international law experts disagree with you is just because they are all anti-semitic lol You not reading the sources is not me saying that. When I said the 17 year old thing that is one end of the spectrum not the only thing. You are the best of the bunch here in having a reasonable conversation but it is still near impossible when you are looking for loopholes or reasons to be mad instead of at the actual information. It is not like I'm not providing sources that also provide tons of info on the what the IDF is doing or the worse things that the Israeli settlers are doing as well. Again not my problem if you don't read them. It is factual that Hamas and all of Iranian proxies use child soldiers, it is also factual that they use less total and as a percentage than in some of the African conflicts. It is also factual that when you look into Child soldiers they also talk about the use of them as human shields, but I don't want to bring that up (even though it is extremely true) because you guys somehow think that makes the childrens deaths acceptable, even though it obviously does not. Here is another quote. Show nested quote +In 2005 Amnesty International condemned the use of children by Palestinian militant groups saying: "Palestinian armed groups have repeatedly shown total disregard for the most fundamental human rights, notably the right to life, by deliberately targeting Israeli civilians and by using Palestinian children in armed attacks." Here is some of the info from the second source. Show nested quote +The United Nations verified 2,934 grave violations against 1,208 Palestinian
children and 9 Israeli children (915 boys, 302 girls) in the occupied West Bank,
including East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip and Israel.
85. The United Nations verified the recruitment of one Palestinian boy by the
Mujahidin Brigades in Gaza. In addition, the recruitment and use of one boy by
Hamas’ Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades in 2019 was verified in 2021. In Gaza,
Palestinian Islamic Jihad’s Al-Quds Brigades, Hamas’ Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades,
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine Abu Ali Mustafa Brigades and
Palestinian Mujahidin Movement Mujahidin Brigades, organized “summer camps”
for adults and children as young as 14, exposing them to military content and
activities.
86. The United Nations verified the detention of 637 Palestinian children for alleged
security offences by Israeli forces in the occupied West Bank, including 557 in East
Jerusalem. Among those children, 85 reported ill-treatment and breaches of due
process by Israeli forces while in detention, with 75 per cent reporting having
experienced physical violence. Show nested quote +On October 20 2024 05:01 Magic Powers wrote:
Interesting.
Hamas are not openly advertising their child soldier recruitment program. We know with certainty they're recruiting a large number of child soldiers.
Israel is not openly advocating for Palestinian genocide. We know with certainty they're not committing genocide. Wow another terrible strawman good job! I look forward to your next post about quitting the thread until X and or stopping responding to some one and lasting hours or less.
What could you possibly referring to new Liqudian?
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On October 20 2024 05:20 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2024 04:57 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 20 2024 04:53 Billyboy wrote:On October 20 2024 04:51 Billyboy wrote:On October 20 2024 04:30 Salazarz wrote:On October 20 2024 04:24 Billyboy wrote:
How many are under 12, 12-15, 16-18 that data just plain does not exist. But what is certain is they exist and Hamas does no age checking. If a child by our definition of under 18 shows up and is capable of doing what Hamas wants, they are in.
Have you got any sources on that, or is that just what you believe? On October 20 2024 04:24 Billyboy wrote:Can you quote any excuse I've made? Can you point out where I justify any dead kid? Of course not. What happened is you asked if Palestine used Child soldiers. I answered factually that Hamas did, you were somehow completely shocked by well known, easily verifiable fact and have created some narrative to keep you hate peaked or whatever your not sensible reason is. By your definition of 'factual truth', Israel also uses child soldiers (which is basically how this entire line of conversation started). Of course, that definition is absolutely worthless for the purpose of this discussion as without delving into details like how often, in what capacity, or why, it really doesn't add anything other than 'yeah war sucks and people sometimes do shitty things in war' which is what everyone here at this point surely understands already. Do I have any sources on them not having a registry of their soldiers that include demographics? No, because sources on things that don't exist, don't exist. But If you are able to find one, even without ages that just showed how many troops and other support they have lost that would be fantastic. The only things I can see are either IDF, which are questionable at best, or from Hamas that every single person is a civilian, even less useful. There is lots of info on the Israeli stuff, more even because they are a democracy that follows much of the rules of the world (and even reports when they break them). Check the source below, you can cherry pick it how you like! (Or try something new and read all the info, your call). https://documents.un.org/doc/undoc/gen/n22/344/71/pdf/n2234471.pdf On October 20 2024 04:37 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 20 2024 04:24 Billyboy wrote:On October 19 2024 23:09 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 19 2024 22:47 Billyboy wrote:On October 19 2024 21:58 Jockmcplop wrote:
I'd think there would be much more made of it if Hamas was deploying a child army.
Its more likely that any kids involved aren't actually armed or anything and are throwing rocks and basically acting like bait. That's Hamas tactics for you. The young ones that is the case, that or suicide bombers. The older ones (still children by our definition) are having kids, raising them and joining the Hamas military wing. This is really not in dispute anywhere. Well other than here. There is lots made of it, just not certain "news" channels. This seems to be very in doubt. There's been instances for sure, but according to multiple sources, the worst of this was around 2000-2005 and even then an investigation found no systematic use of child soldiers. Sure you can see the Hamas propaganda videos, and the brainwashing is almost certainly real, but they aren't fielding an army of child soldiers. If you can provide a source that isn't based in Israel I'll take a look though. You are never going to get exact numbers because Hamas is a terrorist org and not a regular government, the same way you are not getting any sort of numbers on casualties compared to civilians. I'd say amnesty international is a pretty decent source and not Israeli. But to whether there is 100 or 1000 or whatever who knows. How many are under 12, 12-15, 16-18 that data just plain does not exist. But what is certain is they exist and Hamas does no age checking. If a child by our definition of under 18 shows up and is capable of doing what Hamas wants, they are in. Just so you know, this also means that the UK employs child soldiers, in a much more systematic and legislated way than Hamas does. No it does not. But yes other countries use under 18 legislated and systematic, more is you making it up since we don't have that data and since no 14 year olds in the UK are suicide bombers, or caught carrying ammo and pipe bombs and stuff it is a terribly loaded presumption. What are you on about? You JUST got finished saying that because the odd 17 year old might get a gun from Hamas, that means they employ child soldiers. We confirmed that investigations have found no systematic use of child soldiers by Hamas, and yet you just keep insisting that there is with zero evidence. Post evidence or stop making stuff up. Also Israel follows the rules of the world? Are you kidding me? I suppose the fact that the UN, the ICC and most international law experts disagree with you is just because they are all anti-semitic lol You not reading the sources is not me saying that. When I said the 17 year old thing that is one end of the spectrum not the only thing. You are the best of the bunch here in having a reasonable conversation but it is still near impossible when you are looking for loopholes or reasons to be mad instead of at the actual information. It is not like I'm not providing sources that also provide tons of info on the what the IDF is doing or the worse things that the Israeli settlers are doing as well. Again not my problem if you don't read them. It is factual that Hamas and all of Iranian proxies use child soldiers, it is also factual that they use less total and as a percentage than in some of the African conflicts. It is also factual that when you look into Child soldiers they also talk about the use of them as human shields, but I don't want to bring that up (even though it is extremely true) because you guys somehow think that makes the childrens deaths acceptable, even though it obviously does not. Here is another quote. Show nested quote +In 2005 Amnesty International condemned the use of children by Palestinian militant groups saying: "Palestinian armed groups have repeatedly shown total disregard for the most fundamental human rights, notably the right to life, by deliberately targeting Israeli civilians and by using Palestinian children in armed attacks." Here is some of the info from the second source. Show nested quote +The United Nations verified 2,934 grave violations against 1,208 Palestinian
children and 9 Israeli children (915 boys, 302 girls) in the occupied West Bank,
including East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip and Israel.
85. The United Nations verified the recruitment of one Palestinian boy by the
Mujahidin Brigades in Gaza. In addition, the recruitment and use of one boy by
Hamas’ Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades in 2019 was verified in 2021. In Gaza,
Palestinian Islamic Jihad’s Al-Quds Brigades, Hamas’ Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades,
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine Abu Ali Mustafa Brigades and
Palestinian Mujahidin Movement Mujahidin Brigades, organized “summer camps”
for adults and children as young as 14, exposing them to military content and
activities.
86. The United Nations verified the detention of 637 Palestinian children for alleged
security offences by Israeli forces in the occupied West Bank, including 557 in East
Jerusalem. Among those children, 85 reported ill-treatment and breaches of due
process by Israeli forces while in detention, with 75 per cent reporting having
experienced physical violence. Show nested quote +On October 20 2024 05:01 Magic Powers wrote:
Interesting.
Hamas are not openly advertising their child soldier recruitment program. We know with certainty they're recruiting a large number of child soldiers.
Israel is not openly advocating for Palestinian genocide. We know with certainty they're not committing genocide. Wow another terrible strawman good job! I look forward to your next post about quitting the thread until X and or stopping responding to some one and lasting hours or less.
So there was one boy used as a child soldier in West Bank, and another one in Gaza (neither of the two were recruited by Hamas, by the way). There were also 637 children detained on unspecified 'security offenses', and 75% of those detained reported having experienced physical violence. And your conclusion from these numbers is... Hamas obviously uses child soldiers?
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On October 20 2024 05:36 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2024 05:20 Billyboy wrote:On October 20 2024 04:57 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 20 2024 04:53 Billyboy wrote:On October 20 2024 04:51 Billyboy wrote:On October 20 2024 04:30 Salazarz wrote:On October 20 2024 04:24 Billyboy wrote:
How many are under 12, 12-15, 16-18 that data just plain does not exist. But what is certain is they exist and Hamas does no age checking. If a child by our definition of under 18 shows up and is capable of doing what Hamas wants, they are in.
Have you got any sources on that, or is that just what you believe? On October 20 2024 04:24 Billyboy wrote:Can you quote any excuse I've made? Can you point out where I justify any dead kid? Of course not. What happened is you asked if Palestine used Child soldiers. I answered factually that Hamas did, you were somehow completely shocked by well known, easily verifiable fact and have created some narrative to keep you hate peaked or whatever your not sensible reason is. By your definition of 'factual truth', Israel also uses child soldiers (which is basically how this entire line of conversation started). Of course, that definition is absolutely worthless for the purpose of this discussion as without delving into details like how often, in what capacity, or why, it really doesn't add anything other than 'yeah war sucks and people sometimes do shitty things in war' which is what everyone here at this point surely understands already. Do I have any sources on them not having a registry of their soldiers that include demographics? No, because sources on things that don't exist, don't exist. But If you are able to find one, even without ages that just showed how many troops and other support they have lost that would be fantastic. The only things I can see are either IDF, which are questionable at best, or from Hamas that every single person is a civilian, even less useful. There is lots of info on the Israeli stuff, more even because they are a democracy that follows much of the rules of the world (and even reports when they break them). Check the source below, you can cherry pick it how you like! (Or try something new and read all the info, your call). https://documents.un.org/doc/undoc/gen/n22/344/71/pdf/n2234471.pdf On October 20 2024 04:37 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 20 2024 04:24 Billyboy wrote:On October 19 2024 23:09 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 19 2024 22:47 Billyboy wrote:On October 19 2024 21:58 Jockmcplop wrote:
I'd think there would be much more made of it if Hamas was deploying a child army.
Its more likely that any kids involved aren't actually armed or anything and are throwing rocks and basically acting like bait. That's Hamas tactics for you. The young ones that is the case, that or suicide bombers. The older ones (still children by our definition) are having kids, raising them and joining the Hamas military wing. This is really not in dispute anywhere. Well other than here. There is lots made of it, just not certain "news" channels. This seems to be very in doubt. There's been instances for sure, but according to multiple sources, the worst of this was around 2000-2005 and even then an investigation found no systematic use of child soldiers. Sure you can see the Hamas propaganda videos, and the brainwashing is almost certainly real, but they aren't fielding an army of child soldiers. If you can provide a source that isn't based in Israel I'll take a look though. You are never going to get exact numbers because Hamas is a terrorist org and not a regular government, the same way you are not getting any sort of numbers on casualties compared to civilians. I'd say amnesty international is a pretty decent source and not Israeli. But to whether there is 100 or 1000 or whatever who knows. How many are under 12, 12-15, 16-18 that data just plain does not exist. But what is certain is they exist and Hamas does no age checking. If a child by our definition of under 18 shows up and is capable of doing what Hamas wants, they are in. Just so you know, this also means that the UK employs child soldiers, in a much more systematic and legislated way than Hamas does. No it does not. But yes other countries use under 18 legislated and systematic, more is you making it up since we don't have that data and since no 14 year olds in the UK are suicide bombers, or caught carrying ammo and pipe bombs and stuff it is a terribly loaded presumption. What are you on about? You JUST got finished saying that because the odd 17 year old might get a gun from Hamas, that means they employ child soldiers. We confirmed that investigations have found no systematic use of child soldiers by Hamas, and yet you just keep insisting that there is with zero evidence. Post evidence or stop making stuff up. Also Israel follows the rules of the world? Are you kidding me? I suppose the fact that the UN, the ICC and most international law experts disagree with you is just because they are all anti-semitic lol You not reading the sources is not me saying that. When I said the 17 year old thing that is one end of the spectrum not the only thing. You are the best of the bunch here in having a reasonable conversation but it is still near impossible when you are looking for loopholes or reasons to be mad instead of at the actual information. It is not like I'm not providing sources that also provide tons of info on the what the IDF is doing or the worse things that the Israeli settlers are doing as well. Again not my problem if you don't read them. It is factual that Hamas and all of Iranian proxies use child soldiers, it is also factual that they use less total and as a percentage than in some of the African conflicts. It is also factual that when you look into Child soldiers they also talk about the use of them as human shields, but I don't want to bring that up (even though it is extremely true) because you guys somehow think that makes the childrens deaths acceptable, even though it obviously does not. Here is another quote. In 2005 Amnesty International condemned the use of children by Palestinian militant groups saying: "Palestinian armed groups have repeatedly shown total disregard for the most fundamental human rights, notably the right to life, by deliberately targeting Israeli civilians and by using Palestinian children in armed attacks." Here is some of the info from the second source. The United Nations verified 2,934 grave violations against 1,208 Palestinian
children and 9 Israeli children (915 boys, 302 girls) in the occupied West Bank,
including East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip and Israel.
85. The United Nations verified the recruitment of one Palestinian boy by the
Mujahidin Brigades in Gaza. In addition, the recruitment and use of one boy by
Hamas’ Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades in 2019 was verified in 2021. In Gaza,
Palestinian Islamic Jihad’s Al-Quds Brigades, Hamas’ Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades,
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine Abu Ali Mustafa Brigades and
Palestinian Mujahidin Movement Mujahidin Brigades, organized “summer camps”
for adults and children as young as 14, exposing them to military content and
activities.
86. The United Nations verified the detention of 637 Palestinian children for alleged
security offences by Israeli forces in the occupied West Bank, including 557 in East
Jerusalem. Among those children, 85 reported ill-treatment and breaches of due
process by Israeli forces while in detention, with 75 per cent reporting having
experienced physical violence. On October 20 2024 05:01 Magic Powers wrote:
Interesting.
Hamas are not openly advertising their child soldier recruitment program. We know with certainty they're recruiting a large number of child soldiers.
Israel is not openly advocating for Palestinian genocide. We know with certainty they're not committing genocide. Wow another terrible strawman good job! I look forward to your next post about quitting the thread until X and or stopping responding to some one and lasting hours or less. What could you possibly referring to new Liqudian?
Great point! I had only been talking about the last few pages, but it almost certainly is just the long term way they post. Thanks!
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And to expand your point :
https://www.972mag.com/northern-gaza-liquidation-scenario-eiland-rabi/
It's a bit weird that this sort of debate almost never includes what the israelis are saying.
We're talking about a society in which major centrist scholars can advocate for an ethnic cleansing since two decades.
Another elephant in the room is the tik tok by israeli soldiers with the ruin of Gaza being stages as an amusement park filled with "animals "to torture, never a war has been so fun to the depraved and sadists.
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On October 21 2024 05:11 stilt wrote:And to expand your point : https://www.972mag.com/northern-gaza-liquidation-scenario-eiland-rabi/It's a bit weird that this sort of debate almost never includes what the israelis are saying. We're talking about a society in which major centrist scholars can advocate for an ethnic cleansing since two decades. Another elephant in the room is the tik tok by israeli soldiers with the ruin of Gaza being stages as an amusement park filled with "animals "to torture, never a war has been so fun to the depraved and sadists.
It's because you can't talk about these things in public without getting cancelled as an antisemite.
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On October 21 2024 14:14 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2024 05:11 stilt wrote:On October 21 2024 04:03 Nebuchad wrote:Netanyahu's Likud Party Issues Invitation to Event Titled 'Preparing to Settle Gaza'
The event, scheduled for next week, is part of an initiative by the Nachala movement, which is known for establishing illegal outposts in the West Bank. Several ministers and MKs from Likud and Otzma Yehudit are expected to attend https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-10-16/ty-article/.premium/netanyahus-likud-party-issues-invitation-to-event-titled-preparing-to-settle-gaza/00000192-95b6-d9c2-a7f3-9db676f40000Follow-up: "The IDF allowed participants in the "Preparing to Resettle Gaza" conference to set up 50 tents in a closed military area west of Kibbutz Be'eri, near the border with Gaza. The conference is organized by the Nachala Settlement Movement, which establishes illegal West Bank outposts, with the active participation of dozens of ministers and parliamentarians from PM Netanyahu's Likud party and far-right parties." And to expand your point : https://www.972mag.com/northern-gaza-liquidation-scenario-eiland-rabi/It's a bit weird that this sort of debate almost never includes what the israelis are saying. We're talking about a society in which major centrist scholars can advocate for an ethnic cleansing since two decades. Another elephant in the room is the tik tok by israeli soldiers with the ruin of Gaza being stages as an amusement park filled with "animals "to torture, never a war has been so fun to the depraved and sadists. It's because you can't talk about these things in public without getting cancelled as an antisemite.
https://dayan.org/he/content/6302
It's a good plan, I fail to see "genocide" "landtaking" "surpression" "ethnic cleansing"
1. Hamas in Gaza needs to be destroyed, all weapons seized all figthing ends
2. Control over gaza is established by israels military, and then delegated to international forces -explicitly including an or more arab nation(s).
3. Reeducation includes basic understand that Israel's existence is no longer to be questioned, terroism needs to be renounced. Failure to accept won't be tolerated. Any attempt of rebuilding an armed insurgency will result in israels military overruling the internatinal force and stop the process of returning authority to people in gaza
4. The ultimate goal is a re-educated gaza society that just accepts the existence of israel - and is resiliant enough to not work with terrorists again
Again this is "De-Nazifikation" 101 from germany. I am german, I am happy that I am not a nazi...thanks to de-nazifikation.
Hard War, hard truth, hard losses to be suffered.. and then a rocky road to rebuild.
I'd wish that gaza can be more than a slum and breeding ground for terrorism - it won't be if Israel now just leaves.
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Is Israel going to pump billions into Gaza to rebuild it and ensure Palestinians can actually live a normal life?
Because your not going to prevent a new Hamas without giving Palestinians hope for a better tomorrow.
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Northern Ireland25216 Posts
On October 21 2024 21:46 KT_Elwood wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2024 14:14 Salazarz wrote:On October 21 2024 05:11 stilt wrote:On October 21 2024 04:03 Nebuchad wrote:Netanyahu's Likud Party Issues Invitation to Event Titled 'Preparing to Settle Gaza'
The event, scheduled for next week, is part of an initiative by the Nachala movement, which is known for establishing illegal outposts in the West Bank. Several ministers and MKs from Likud and Otzma Yehudit are expected to attend https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-10-16/ty-article/.premium/netanyahus-likud-party-issues-invitation-to-event-titled-preparing-to-settle-gaza/00000192-95b6-d9c2-a7f3-9db676f40000Follow-up: "The IDF allowed participants in the "Preparing to Resettle Gaza" conference to set up 50 tents in a closed military area west of Kibbutz Be'eri, near the border with Gaza. The conference is organized by the Nachala Settlement Movement, which establishes illegal West Bank outposts, with the active participation of dozens of ministers and parliamentarians from PM Netanyahu's Likud party and far-right parties." And to expand your point : https://www.972mag.com/northern-gaza-liquidation-scenario-eiland-rabi/It's a bit weird that this sort of debate almost never includes what the israelis are saying. We're talking about a society in which major centrist scholars can advocate for an ethnic cleansing since two decades. Another elephant in the room is the tik tok by israeli soldiers with the ruin of Gaza being stages as an amusement park filled with "animals "to torture, never a war has been so fun to the depraved and sadists. It's because you can't talk about these things in public without getting cancelled as an antisemite. https://dayan.org/he/content/6302It's a good plan, I fail to see "genocide" "landtaking" "surpression" "ethnic cleansing" 1. Hamas in Gaza needs to be destroyed, all weapons seized all figthing ends 2. Control over gaza is established by israels military, and then delegated to international forces -explicitly including an or more arab nation(s). 3. Reeducation includes basic understand that Israel's existence is no longer to be questioned, terroism needs to be renounced. Failure to accept won't be tolerated. Any attempt of rebuilding an armed insurgency will result in israels military overruling the internatinal force and stop the process of returning authority to people in gaza 4. The ultimate goal is a re-educated gaza society that just accepts the existence of israel - and is resiliant enough to not work with terrorists again Again this is "De-Nazifikation" 101 from germany. I am german, I am happy that I am not a nazi...thanks to de-nazifikation. Hard War, hard truth, hard losses to be suffered.. and then a rocky road to rebuild. I'd wish that gaza can be more than a slum and breeding ground for terrorism - it won't be if Israel now just leaves.
Hey sounds a plan only:
Ah golly gee I wonder why people are skeptical?
It’s easy not to see things if prior to being asked you stick a blindfold on.
De-Nazification worked because Germany was an equivalent power, that was allowed to return to that status and rehabilitate itself under certain conditions. Versus the punitive Treaty of Versailles and the problems that caused.
Aside from territorial ambitions Germany wasn’t locked into various territorial disputes with much more powerful neighbours, there are quite profound differences with this scenario alongside similarities
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Isn't It allready the place that gets the most international money pumped in world wide?
Money wasn't the issue as to why nothing decent was ever built up there, extremism was.
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The comparison to Germany's de-nazification is completely played out. It's been attempted various times and every time the comparison has failed. It'll never stick, people ought to just give it up and accept that it doesn't apply to this conflict.
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On October 21 2024 22:16 Velr wrote:
Isn't It allready the place that gets the most international money pumped in world wide?
Money wasn't the issue as to why nothing decent was ever built up there, extremism was.
Money without liberty isn't worth very much after the fundamental needs are met. Liberty would allow Palestinians to build a better future. Most of them don't even know what liberty looks/feels like. Extremism grows much more easily on such a fertile ground. That is not even considering the active suppression of moderate groups by Netanyahu's administration.
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On October 21 2024 22:29 Magic Powers wrote:
The comparison to Germany's de-nazification is completely played out. It's been attempted various times and every time the comparison has failed. It'll never stick, people ought to just give it up and accept that it doesn't apply to this conflict.
Germans were not allowed to own guns. Not allowed to own or diplay any propaganda item of the nazis.
Even using parts of a uniform, like coats, trousers, boots was prohibited.. in a nation that got bombed to shreds before - and was in desperate need of winter clothing.
Allies decided on what can be taught in schools, how the broadcasting stations need to be organized (and controlled).
But they wouldn't go too far..:
There was the Morgenthau-plan to dissmantle germany as an industrialized nation, prevent re-industrialization and see to the fact by splitting germany into different nations under close control.
Churchill "Do you want england to be chained to a dead body?"
Idealy Gaza will be part of Israel, arab inhabitants will gain citizenship in exchang for fundamental reeducation - and funds to rebuild.
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On October 21 2024 21:46 KT_Elwood wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2024 14:14 Salazarz wrote:On October 21 2024 05:11 stilt wrote:On October 21 2024 04:03 Nebuchad wrote:Netanyahu's Likud Party Issues Invitation to Event Titled 'Preparing to Settle Gaza'
The event, scheduled for next week, is part of an initiative by the Nachala movement, which is known for establishing illegal outposts in the West Bank. Several ministers and MKs from Likud and Otzma Yehudit are expected to attend https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-10-16/ty-article/.premium/netanyahus-likud-party-issues-invitation-to-event-titled-preparing-to-settle-gaza/00000192-95b6-d9c2-a7f3-9db676f40000Follow-up: "The IDF allowed participants in the "Preparing to Resettle Gaza" conference to set up 50 tents in a closed military area west of Kibbutz Be'eri, near the border with Gaza. The conference is organized by the Nachala Settlement Movement, which establishes illegal West Bank outposts, with the active participation of dozens of ministers and parliamentarians from PM Netanyahu's Likud party and far-right parties." And to expand your point : https://www.972mag.com/northern-gaza-liquidation-scenario-eiland-rabi/It's a bit weird that this sort of debate almost never includes what the israelis are saying. We're talking about a society in which major centrist scholars can advocate for an ethnic cleansing since two decades. Another elephant in the room is the tik tok by israeli soldiers with the ruin of Gaza being stages as an amusement park filled with "animals "to torture, never a war has been so fun to the depraved and sadists. It's because you can't talk about these things in public without getting cancelled as an antisemite. https://dayan.org/he/content/6302It's a good plan, I fail to see "genocide" "landtaking" "surpression" "ethnic cleansing" 1. Hamas in Gaza needs to be destroyed, all weapons seized all figthing ends 2. Control over gaza is established by israels military, and then delegated to international forces -explicitly including an or more arab nation(s). 3. Reeducation includes basic understand that Israel's existence is no longer to be questioned, terroism needs to be renounced. Failure to accept won't be tolerated. Any attempt of rebuilding an armed insurgency will result in israels military overruling the internatinal force and stop the process of returning authority to people in gaza 4. The ultimate goal is a re-educated gaza society that just accepts the existence of israel - and is resiliant enough to not work with terrorists again Again this is "De-Nazifikation" 101 from germany. I am german, I am happy that I am not a nazi...thanks to de-nazifikation. Hard War, hard truth, hard losses to be suffered.. and then a rocky road to rebuild. I'd wish that gaza can be more than a slum and breeding ground for terrorism - it won't be if Israel now just leaves.
Negationnists don't see gaz chambers either and you're the living proof dezanification is a myth as you and your people massively support a genocide committed by a supremacist society.
Israelis should be educated to learn to treat palestinians as human beings.
Allies were way too lenient toward the germans anyway, israel should have been there and not palestine as you did your best to genocide the jewish population and those 40 millions dead you committed remained without enough consequences
To be honest, the problem with the germans is way deeper than nazism, the herreros can testify of it
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On October 21 2024 23:08 KT_Elwood wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2024 22:29 Magic Powers wrote:
The comparison to Germany's de-nazification is completely played out. It's been attempted various times and every time the comparison has failed. It'll never stick, people ought to just give it up and accept that it doesn't apply to this conflict. Germans were not allowed to own guns. Not allowed to own or diplay any propaganda item of the nazis. Even using parts of a uniform, like coats, trousers, boots was prohibited.. in a nation that got bombed to shreds before - and was in desperate need of winter clothing. Allies decided on what can be taught in schools, how the broadcasting stations need to be organized (and controlled). But they wouldn't go too far..: There was the Morgenthau-plan to dissmantle germany as an industrialized nation, prevent re-industrialization and see to the fact by splitting germany into different nations under close control. Churchill "Do you want england to be chained to a dead body?" Idealy Gaza will be part of Israel, arab inhabitants will gain citizenship in exchang for fundamental reeducation - and funds to rebuild.
Palestinians are not allowed to move freely in the West bank. Their land is being stolen from them as we speak. They're being aggressively pushed out of their land. They're being terrorized by Jewish settlers.
Yes, very comparison to post-WW2 Germany denazification. Much.
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You presented plans for gaza wich is an active combat zone and staging ground for terrorists attack on israel.
Now you switch to a differnt problem
On October 21 2024 23:16 stilt wrote:
Negationnists don't see gaz chambers either and you're the living proof dezanification is a myth as you and your people massively support a genocide committed by a supremacist society.
Israelis should be educated to learn to treat palestinians as human beings.
Allies were way too lenient toward the germans anyway, israel should have been there and not palestine as you did your best to genocide the jewish population and those 40 millions dead you committed remained without enough consequences
To be honest, the problem with the germans is way deeper than nazism, the herreros can testify of it
Weird.
If germans are the experts on genocide.. and don't see one going on.. then why don't take my word for it?
De-Nazifaktion is a pragmatic term for how germany was transformed from a centralistic authoritarian state with a racist supremacist ideolgy of national socialism to a federal republic embracing democracy, freedom and free markets, personal wealth.
Was a huge undertaking, transformed the FRG/BRD into the first line of defense against the commies.
Palestinians are treated as human beings wanting the death of all jews. They get bombed, like the Nazis did.
Jews and Zionisist wanted to go back to their ancestoral home because they lived through centuries of antisemitism in Europe, with the holocaust marking the peak in cruelty. They wanted their own state, back in their home. And boom back they were.
They established themselves like human settlers did all over the globe for all time.. by numbers, technological and cultural supremacy.
That's how the modern human from africa displaced the neanderthal.
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On October 22 2024 01:09 KT_Elwood wrote:You presented plans for gaza wich is an active combat zone and staging ground for terrorists attack on israel. Now you switch to a differnt problem Show nested quote +On October 21 2024 23:16 stilt wrote:
Negationnists don't see gaz chambers either and you're the living proof dezanification is a myth as you and your people massively support a genocide committed by a supremacist society.
Israelis should be educated to learn to treat palestinians as human beings.
Allies were way too lenient toward the germans anyway, israel should have been there and not palestine as you did your best to genocide the jewish population and those 40 millions dead you committed remained without enough consequences
To be honest, the problem with the germans is way deeper than nazism, the herreros can testify of it Weird. If germans are the experts on genocide.. and don't see one going on.. then why don't take my word for it? De-Nazifaktion is a pragmatic term for how germany was transformed from a centralistic authoritarian state with a racist supremacist ideolgy of national socialism to a federal republic embracing democracy, freedom and free markets, personal wealth. Was a huge undertaking, transformed the FRG/BRD into the first line of defense against the commies. Palestinians are treated as human beings wanting the death of all jews. They get bombed, like the Nazis did. Jews and Zionisist wanted to go back to their ancestoral home because they lived through centuries of antisemitism in Europe, with the holocaust marking the peak in cruelty. They wanted their own state, back in their home. And boom back they were. They established themselves like human settlers did all over the globe for all time.. by numbers, technological and cultural supremacy. That's how the modern human from africa displaced the neanderthal.
You'll find that during the last 50 years a large percentage of the modern humans have figured out that racism is incorrect and that all humans are, in fact, humans, which is problematic for the validity of colonialism as an ideology.
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On October 21 2024 23:16 stilt wrote:
Allies were way too lenient toward the germans anyway, israel should have been there and not palestine as you did your best to genocide the jewish population and those 40 millions dead you committed remained without enough consequences
To be honest, the problem with the germans is way deeper than nazism, the herreros can testify of it
So you think the world would be a better place now if Germany had gotten the WWI treatment again? Not exactly a position that many people share. It also sounds a lot like you want to say present day Germany is a big problem somehow. Justifying that with something that happened more than 30 years before WWII.
Should we have a look at all the atrocities France committed in their colonies too while we are at it? The difference is that they still weild a lot more influence over these countries than Germany does. Not necessarily to the benefit of these people...
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I don't defend Colonialism, I just accept that it is a fact.
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On October 21 2024 22:01 Gorsameth wrote:
Is Israel going to pump billions into Gaza to rebuild it and ensure Palestinians can actually live a normal life?
Because your not going to prevent a new Hamas without giving Palestinians hope for a better tomorrow.
Money is for sure one of the requirements but it is so much more than that and I actually don't think anyone knows how to make it work. Obviously Iraq was a complete disaster, but it was not lack of money. Than Afghanistan was done way better, more money and much more of a plan and ended up a disaster as well. There is so much corruption on top of the extremists (that is kind of part of the whole thing, steal from your people blame the others for all the problems) I'm not sure how you successfully make any good, long lasting changes, even with the best of intentions. It is also crazy that Gazans had it better by most metrics than people in Yemen, Lebanon Syria and so on before this when there is so much money. It is just all way to concentrated.
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EPT
