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Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine - Page 359

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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria4091 Posts
October 19 2024 10:29 GMT
#7161
Israel creates child soldiers with violence and oppression. It's only logical that Hamas has some in their ranks. There's not much more to say about it. The idea that Hamas is responsible for the radicalization of a child who lost its family and subsequently wants to destroy Israel is fairly absurd. Their deaths are on Israel, even moreso than the deaths of adult soldiers.
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35143 Posts
October 19 2024 11:04 GMT
#7162
Any excuse to snipe a kid and then done the ones that try to come and help them.
Elroi
Profile Joined August 2009
Sweden5595 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-10-19 11:41:23
October 19 2024 11:09 GMT
#7163
On October 19 2024 14:39 Salazarz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2024 10:27 Billyboy wrote:
On October 19 2024 03:15 Salazarz wrote:
On October 19 2024 02:49 Billyboy wrote:
On October 18 2024 22:52 Salazarz wrote:
On October 18 2024 19:26 KT_Elwood wrote:
Is Israel using underage soldiers in the conflict?


Is Palestine?

Yes Hamas does. When over half your population is under 18 and you will take anyone it is pretty obvious. There is also the past use of children as suicide bombers makes it pretty unlikely that they are not going to have them in their ranks. It would be super strange for them to not use child soldiers not the other way around.


So you don't actually know if they do, it's just 'obvious.'

There are plenty of reports, but it is not like it is news. It is common knowledge, like the weather stations don't talk about clouds being in the sky.

Is this something you really need extra proof on? Like how do you think Hamas recruiting goes? Do you really believe that Hamas ID checks their members to make sure their 18? Do you they have other HR policies? Can you expand on what they are?

+ Show Spoiler +
In 2005 Amnesty International condemned the use of children by Palestinian militant groups saying: "Palestinian armed groups have repeatedly shown total disregard for the most fundamental human rights, notably the right to life, by deliberately targeting Israeli civilians and by using Palestinian children in armed attacks."


Muslim extremist groups are usually fairly strict on use of child soldiers, actually. Not to say that they never do it, but the idea that Islamic terrorists are all evil and thus child soldiers are 'common knowledge' sort of norm for them is not grounded in reality.

If they are "fairly strict" on the use of child soldiers there are other groups that use them more recklessly? Who would that be? Hamas, Boko Haram and ISIS have all been found to use child soldiers. In the genocide of the Yazidis, for example, the men were typically killed, the women sold as slaves and the children used as soldiers/suicide bombers. Hell, the Iranian revolutionary guard are even recruiting children in Sweden as we speak to attack Jewish or Israeli targets. They rely on the criminal clans in Sweden from the Middle East (I hope the clan leaders end up on Mossad's death list, btw, since our authorities are incapable of handling them).
"To all eSports fans, I want to be remembered as a progamer who can make something out of nothing, and someone who always does his best. I think that is the right way of living, and I'm always doing my best to follow that." - Jaedong. /watch?v=jfghAzJqAp0
Jockmcplop
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom9646 Posts
October 19 2024 12:58 GMT
#7164
I'd think there would be much more made of it if Hamas was deploying a child army.

Its more likely that any kids involved aren't actually armed or anything and are throwing rocks and basically acting like bait. That's Hamas tactics for you.
RIP Meatloaf <3
Billyboy
Profile Joined September 2024
1013 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-10-19 13:52:38
October 19 2024 13:47 GMT
#7165
On October 19 2024 18:40 Salazarz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2024 14:58 Billyboy wrote:
On October 19 2024 14:39 Salazarz wrote:
On October 19 2024 10:27 Billyboy wrote:
On October 19 2024 03:15 Salazarz wrote:
On October 19 2024 02:49 Billyboy wrote:
On October 18 2024 22:52 Salazarz wrote:
On October 18 2024 19:26 KT_Elwood wrote:
Is Israel using underage soldiers in the conflict?


Is Palestine?

Yes Hamas does. When over half your population is under 18 and you will take anyone it is pretty obvious. There is also the past use of children as suicide bombers makes it pretty unlikely that they are not going to have them in their ranks. It would be super strange for them to not use child soldiers not the other way around.


So you don't actually know if they do, it's just 'obvious.'

There are plenty of reports, but it is not like it is news. It is common knowledge, like the weather stations don't talk about clouds being in the sky.

Is this something you really need extra proof on? Like how do you think Hamas recruiting goes? Do you really believe that Hamas ID checks their members to make sure their 18? Do you they have other HR policies? Can you expand on what they are?

+ Show Spoiler +
In 2005 Amnesty International condemned the use of children by Palestinian militant groups saying: "Palestinian armed groups have repeatedly shown total disregard for the most fundamental human rights, notably the right to life, by deliberately targeting Israeli civilians and by using Palestinian children in armed attacks."


Yes, use of child soldiers is something I would certainly need proof on. Muslim extremist groups are usually fairly strict on use of child soldiers, actually. Not to say that they never do it, but the idea that Islamic terrorists are all evil and thus child soldiers are 'common knowledge' sort of norm for them is not grounded in reality.

By the way, if you consider Amnesty International a reliable source in general, they also say that Gaza is on the verge of genocide, that Israel is preventing access to food and medicine, that Israel is committing multiple war crimes, etc. So like, either you trust your sources, or you don't -- don't cherry pick things that you think might suit your narrative then leave out the rest.

What exactly is my narrative? You just keep making one up because you know so little about the actual conflict.

There has been thousands of child soldiers killed and many more arrested. Don't worry though you don't have to change your world view on Israel being awful is they are routinely accused (with proof) of treating them like adults, and then much worse things like physical and sexual abuse. What you are going to have to change is that Hamas is not a horrible awful group. The hand waving doesn't cut it, you need to do some ACTUAL research on how awful they are and then come back. You can keep hating Israel just as much don't worry, but there is no rule that you have to ignore clear and obvious awful things about Hamas. In fact if you get the actual information your arguments will be much more compelling because people who know the basics won't immediately write you off.


Thousands of child soldiers killed, or thousands of children killed and then labelled as child soldiers posthumously by the IDF, like that time a kid threw a rock at an armored vehicle, was shot dead on the spot, then written off as a 'terror attack' yeah?

I don't need to change my perspective on Hamas, I'm well aware they're terrible human beings and do plenty of awful things. If you'd like to present 'actual information' on how Hamas uses child soldiers, you're welcome to do so; until then, I'm going to assume it's just another piece of Israeli propaganda, barring a number (granted, a number that's higher than it should be because it should be zero) but still a limited one, of isolated incidents.

That certainly happens, but if the groups fighting for the children's rights were convinced they were all innocent they would be fighting that fight. Instead they are fighting that the child soldiers shouldn't be in adult military court, and that their human rights are protected. You are constantly acting as if others are ignoring "facts" but you actually ignore so many. Which is strange because it hurts you argument because you come off as filled with hate.

On October 19 2024 21:58 Jockmcplop wrote:
I'd think there would be much more made of it if Hamas was deploying a child army.

Its more likely that any kids involved aren't actually armed or anything and are throwing rocks and basically acting like bait. That's Hamas tactics for you.

The young ones that is the case, that or suicide bombers. The older ones (still children by our definition) are having kids, raising them and joining the Hamas military wing. This is really not in dispute anywhere. Well other than here. There is lots made of it, just not certain "news" channels.
Jockmcplop
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom9646 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-10-19 14:19:04
October 19 2024 14:09 GMT
#7166
On October 19 2024 22:47 Billyboy wrote:


Show nested quote +
On October 19 2024 21:58 Jockmcplop wrote:
I'd think there would be much more made of it if Hamas was deploying a child army.

Its more likely that any kids involved aren't actually armed or anything and are throwing rocks and basically acting like bait. That's Hamas tactics for you.

The young ones that is the case, that or suicide bombers. The older ones (still children by our definition) are having kids, raising them and joining the Hamas military wing. This is really not in dispute anywhere. Well other than here. There is lots made of it, just not certain "news" channels.

This seems to be very in doubt.
There's been instances for sure, but according to multiple sources, the worst of this was around 2000-2005 and even then an investigation found no systematic use of child soldiers.
Sure you can see the Hamas propaganda videos, and the brainwashing is almost certainly real, but they aren't fielding an army of child soldiers.
If you can provide a source that isn't based in Israel I'll take a look though.
RIP Meatloaf <3
Salazarz
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Korea (South)2591 Posts
October 19 2024 14:35 GMT
#7167
On October 19 2024 22:47 Billyboy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2024 18:40 Salazarz wrote:
On October 19 2024 14:58 Billyboy wrote:
On October 19 2024 14:39 Salazarz wrote:
On October 19 2024 10:27 Billyboy wrote:
On October 19 2024 03:15 Salazarz wrote:
On October 19 2024 02:49 Billyboy wrote:
On October 18 2024 22:52 Salazarz wrote:
On October 18 2024 19:26 KT_Elwood wrote:
Is Israel using underage soldiers in the conflict?


Is Palestine?

Yes Hamas does. When over half your population is under 18 and you will take anyone it is pretty obvious. There is also the past use of children as suicide bombers makes it pretty unlikely that they are not going to have them in their ranks. It would be super strange for them to not use child soldiers not the other way around.


So you don't actually know if they do, it's just 'obvious.'

There are plenty of reports, but it is not like it is news. It is common knowledge, like the weather stations don't talk about clouds being in the sky.

Is this something you really need extra proof on? Like how do you think Hamas recruiting goes? Do you really believe that Hamas ID checks their members to make sure their 18? Do you they have other HR policies? Can you expand on what they are?

+ Show Spoiler +
In 2005 Amnesty International condemned the use of children by Palestinian militant groups saying: "Palestinian armed groups have repeatedly shown total disregard for the most fundamental human rights, notably the right to life, by deliberately targeting Israeli civilians and by using Palestinian children in armed attacks."


Yes, use of child soldiers is something I would certainly need proof on. Muslim extremist groups are usually fairly strict on use of child soldiers, actually. Not to say that they never do it, but the idea that Islamic terrorists are all evil and thus child soldiers are 'common knowledge' sort of norm for them is not grounded in reality.

By the way, if you consider Amnesty International a reliable source in general, they also say that Gaza is on the verge of genocide, that Israel is preventing access to food and medicine, that Israel is committing multiple war crimes, etc. So like, either you trust your sources, or you don't -- don't cherry pick things that you think might suit your narrative then leave out the rest.

What exactly is my narrative? You just keep making one up because you know so little about the actual conflict.

There has been thousands of child soldiers killed and many more arrested. Don't worry though you don't have to change your world view on Israel being awful is they are routinely accused (with proof) of treating them like adults, and then much worse things like physical and sexual abuse. What you are going to have to change is that Hamas is not a horrible awful group. The hand waving doesn't cut it, you need to do some ACTUAL research on how awful they are and then come back. You can keep hating Israel just as much don't worry, but there is no rule that you have to ignore clear and obvious awful things about Hamas. In fact if you get the actual information your arguments will be much more compelling because people who know the basics won't immediately write you off.


Thousands of child soldiers killed, or thousands of children killed and then labelled as child soldiers posthumously by the IDF, like that time a kid threw a rock at an armored vehicle, was shot dead on the spot, then written off as a 'terror attack' yeah?

I don't need to change my perspective on Hamas, I'm well aware they're terrible human beings and do plenty of awful things. If you'd like to present 'actual information' on how Hamas uses child soldiers, you're welcome to do so; until then, I'm going to assume it's just another piece of Israeli propaganda, barring a number (granted, a number that's higher than it should be because it should be zero) but still a limited one, of isolated incidents.

That certainly happens, but if the groups fighting for the children's rights were convinced they were all innocent they would be fighting that fight. Instead they are fighting that the child soldiers shouldn't be in adult military court, and that their human rights are protected. You are constantly acting as if others are ignoring "facts" but you actually ignore so many. Which is strange because it hurts you argument because you come off as filled with hate.


I don't mind if you think of me as 'filled with hate' towards the IDF & the Israeli regime. They're a bunch of murderous fascists, I think it's more strange to be trying to come up with excuses for what they are doing than to hate them, but maybe that's just me.

Now, I'm sure there were at least some instances of underage soldiers used by Hamas, it's just that it's definitely not a systemic, wide-spread thing so in the context of the discussion, I don't think the statement, 'Hamas uses child soldiers!' is very accurate or useful. I mean, there have been documented cases of Israel using Palestinian children in the conflict as well, would you accept the notion that 'Israel uses child soldiers'? Technically, it's the truth, but it's not like this is the kind of a question that can be boiled down to a binary yes or no thing, at least in my opinion.

When I hear the phrase 'use of child soldiers', I usually think of something like Somalia or DRC, where it's actually prevalent and basically normalized by those making use of child soldiers. That is not the case in Palestine, on either side of the conflict. If your point was merely that there were some instances where children were employed as soldiers / terrorists by Hamas in the past... yeah, sure, it happened. It's not nearly wide-spread enough to justify the number of dead children in Israel's campaign, though.
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria4091 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-10-19 15:21:35
October 19 2024 15:21 GMT
#7168
The child soldier thing is just the usual right-wing tactic of making an elephant out of a mouse in an attempt to support an argument that sounds absolutely horrible and disgusting.
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
Jockmcplop
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom9646 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-10-19 17:56:15
October 19 2024 17:51 GMT
#7169
Israel's Channel 12 news has some interesting stuff about Netenyahu relentlessly torpedoing any attempt to get the hostages back.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-09-19/ty-article/.premium/new-evidence-reveals-netanyahus-relentless-efforts-to-block-hostage-deal-report-shows/00000192-0a79-d1bc-a1ff-2e7fe0420000

^^This is paywalled, sorry.

Over the next nine months, Avraham reported, Israel's negotiation team was sent on what is ultimately a futile mission to secure another deal that would bring home more hostages. Along the way, the investigation demonstrates, Netanyahu did everything in his power to make sure they are not successful. He repeatedly prevented them from traveling to cease-fire talks, or greatly limited their negotiation powers when they are allowed to go.
He walked back several promises he made, including an agreement to end the war, and invents new "non-starters" that were previously never mentioned. He changed his mind, he denied, and he shifted blame to anyone he possibly can. And throughout all of this, he has ministers like Smotrich and Ben-Gvir threatened to leave his government, if a deal moved forward.


One of the people most responsible for all this death and destruction has been killed.

The other one is still running Israel.
RIP Meatloaf <3
Billyboy
Profile Joined September 2024
1013 Posts
October 19 2024 19:24 GMT
#7170
On October 19 2024 23:09 Jockmcplop wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2024 22:47 Billyboy wrote:


On October 19 2024 21:58 Jockmcplop wrote:
I'd think there would be much more made of it if Hamas was deploying a child army.

Its more likely that any kids involved aren't actually armed or anything and are throwing rocks and basically acting like bait. That's Hamas tactics for you.

The young ones that is the case, that or suicide bombers. The older ones (still children by our definition) are having kids, raising them and joining the Hamas military wing. This is really not in dispute anywhere. Well other than here. There is lots made of it, just not certain "news" channels.

This seems to be very in doubt.
There's been instances for sure, but according to multiple sources, the worst of this was around 2000-2005 and even then an investigation found no systematic use of child soldiers.
Sure you can see the Hamas propaganda videos, and the brainwashing is almost certainly real, but they aren't fielding an army of child soldiers.
If you can provide a source that isn't based in Israel I'll take a look though.

You are never going to get exact numbers because Hamas is a terrorist org and not a regular government, the same way you are not getting any sort of numbers on casualties compared to civilians. I'd say amnesty international is a pretty decent source and not Israeli. But to whether there is 100 or 1000 or whatever who knows. How many are under 12, 12-15, 16-18 that data just plain does not exist. But what is certain is they exist and Hamas does no age checking. If a child by our definition of under 18 shows up and is capable of doing what Hamas wants, they are in.

On October 19 2024 23:35 Salazarz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2024 22:47 Billyboy wrote:
On October 19 2024 18:40 Salazarz wrote:
On October 19 2024 14:58 Billyboy wrote:
On October 19 2024 14:39 Salazarz wrote:
On October 19 2024 10:27 Billyboy wrote:
On October 19 2024 03:15 Salazarz wrote:
On October 19 2024 02:49 Billyboy wrote:
On October 18 2024 22:52 Salazarz wrote:
On October 18 2024 19:26 KT_Elwood wrote:
Is Israel using underage soldiers in the conflict?


Is Palestine?

Yes Hamas does. When over half your population is under 18 and you will take anyone it is pretty obvious. There is also the past use of children as suicide bombers makes it pretty unlikely that they are not going to have them in their ranks. It would be super strange for them to not use child soldiers not the other way around.


So you don't actually know if they do, it's just 'obvious.'

There are plenty of reports, but it is not like it is news. It is common knowledge, like the weather stations don't talk about clouds being in the sky.

Is this something you really need extra proof on? Like how do you think Hamas recruiting goes? Do you really believe that Hamas ID checks their members to make sure their 18? Do you they have other HR policies? Can you expand on what they are?

+ Show Spoiler +
In 2005 Amnesty International condemned the use of children by Palestinian militant groups saying: "Palestinian armed groups have repeatedly shown total disregard for the most fundamental human rights, notably the right to life, by deliberately targeting Israeli civilians and by using Palestinian children in armed attacks."


Yes, use of child soldiers is something I would certainly need proof on. Muslim extremist groups are usually fairly strict on use of child soldiers, actually. Not to say that they never do it, but the idea that Islamic terrorists are all evil and thus child soldiers are 'common knowledge' sort of norm for them is not grounded in reality.

By the way, if you consider Amnesty International a reliable source in general, they also say that Gaza is on the verge of genocide, that Israel is preventing access to food and medicine, that Israel is committing multiple war crimes, etc. So like, either you trust your sources, or you don't -- don't cherry pick things that you think might suit your narrative then leave out the rest.

What exactly is my narrative? You just keep making one up because you know so little about the actual conflict.

There has been thousands of child soldiers killed and many more arrested. Don't worry though you don't have to change your world view on Israel being awful is they are routinely accused (with proof) of treating them like adults, and then much worse things like physical and sexual abuse. What you are going to have to change is that Hamas is not a horrible awful group. The hand waving doesn't cut it, you need to do some ACTUAL research on how awful they are and then come back. You can keep hating Israel just as much don't worry, but there is no rule that you have to ignore clear and obvious awful things about Hamas. In fact if you get the actual information your arguments will be much more compelling because people who know the basics won't immediately write you off.


Thousands of child soldiers killed, or thousands of children killed and then labelled as child soldiers posthumously by the IDF, like that time a kid threw a rock at an armored vehicle, was shot dead on the spot, then written off as a 'terror attack' yeah?

I don't need to change my perspective on Hamas, I'm well aware they're terrible human beings and do plenty of awful things. If you'd like to present 'actual information' on how Hamas uses child soldiers, you're welcome to do so; until then, I'm going to assume it's just another piece of Israeli propaganda, barring a number (granted, a number that's higher than it should be because it should be zero) but still a limited one, of isolated incidents.

That certainly happens, but if the groups fighting for the children's rights were convinced they were all innocent they would be fighting that fight. Instead they are fighting that the child soldiers shouldn't be in adult military court, and that their human rights are protected. You are constantly acting as if others are ignoring "facts" but you actually ignore so many. Which is strange because it hurts you argument because you come off as filled with hate.


I don't mind if you think of me as 'filled with hate' towards the IDF & the Israeli regime. They're a bunch of murderous fascists, I think it's more strange to be trying to come up with excuses for what they are doing than to hate them, but maybe that's just me.

Now, I'm sure there were at least some instances of underage soldiers used by Hamas, it's just that it's definitely not a systemic, wide-spread thing so in the context of the discussion, I don't think the statement, 'Hamas uses child soldiers!' is very accurate or useful. I mean, there have been documented cases of Israel using Palestinian children in the conflict as well, would you accept the notion that 'Israel uses child soldiers'? Technically, it's the truth, but it's not like this is the kind of a question that can be boiled down to a binary yes or no thing, at least in my opinion.

When I hear the phrase 'use of child soldiers', I usually think of something like Somalia or DRC, where it's actually prevalent and basically normalized by those making use of child soldiers. That is not the case in Palestine, on either side of the conflict. If your point was merely that there were some instances where children were employed as soldiers / terrorists by Hamas in the past... yeah, sure, it happened. It's not nearly wide-spread enough to justify the number of dead children in Israel's campaign, though.

Can you quote any excuse I've made? Can you point out where I justify any dead kid? Of course not. What happened is you asked if Palestine used Child soldiers. I answered factually that Hamas did, you were somehow completely shocked by well known, easily verifiable fact and have created some narrative to keep you hate peaked or whatever your not sensible reason is.

My hope is someday you can write a post without a made up evil narrative, I'm not holding my breath though.

On October 20 2024 00:21 Magic Powers wrote:
The child soldier thing is just the usual right-wing tactic of making an elephant out of a mouse in an attempt to support an argument that sounds absolutely horrible and disgusting.

What argument exactly am I supporting. And how exactly am I right wing? By basically every metric Hamas and certainly Iran are far more right wing than even Israel. You are no better than when Trump calls everything he doesn't like "radically left" even when it is a center right, or straight right policy he doesn't like.
Salazarz
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Korea (South)2591 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-10-19 19:30:33
October 19 2024 19:30 GMT
#7171
On October 20 2024 04:24 Billyboy wrote:
How many are under 12, 12-15, 16-18 that data just plain does not exist. But what is certain is they exist and Hamas does no age checking. If a child by our definition of under 18 shows up and is capable of doing what Hamas wants, they are in.


Have you got any sources on that, or is that just what you believe?

On October 20 2024 04:24 Billyboy wrote:Can you quote any excuse I've made? Can you point out where I justify any dead kid? Of course not. What happened is you asked if Palestine used Child soldiers. I answered factually that Hamas did, you were somehow completely shocked by well known, easily verifiable fact and have created some narrative to keep you hate peaked or whatever your not sensible reason is.


By your definition of 'factual truth', Israel also uses child soldiers (which is basically how this entire line of conversation started). Of course, that definition is absolutely worthless for the purpose of this discussion as without delving into details like how often, in what capacity, or why, it really doesn't add anything other than 'yeah war sucks and people sometimes do shitty things in war' which is what everyone here at this point surely understands already.
Jockmcplop
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom9646 Posts
October 19 2024 19:37 GMT
#7172
On October 20 2024 04:24 Billyboy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2024 23:09 Jockmcplop wrote:
On October 19 2024 22:47 Billyboy wrote:


On October 19 2024 21:58 Jockmcplop wrote:
I'd think there would be much more made of it if Hamas was deploying a child army.

Its more likely that any kids involved aren't actually armed or anything and are throwing rocks and basically acting like bait. That's Hamas tactics for you.

The young ones that is the case, that or suicide bombers. The older ones (still children by our definition) are having kids, raising them and joining the Hamas military wing. This is really not in dispute anywhere. Well other than here. There is lots made of it, just not certain "news" channels.

This seems to be very in doubt.
There's been instances for sure, but according to multiple sources, the worst of this was around 2000-2005 and even then an investigation found no systematic use of child soldiers.
Sure you can see the Hamas propaganda videos, and the brainwashing is almost certainly real, but they aren't fielding an army of child soldiers.
If you can provide a source that isn't based in Israel I'll take a look though.

You are never going to get exact numbers because Hamas is a terrorist org and not a regular government, the same way you are not getting any sort of numbers on casualties compared to civilians. I'd say amnesty international is a pretty decent source and not Israeli. But to whether there is 100 or 1000 or whatever who knows. How many are under 12, 12-15, 16-18 that data just plain does not exist. But what is certain is they exist and Hamas does no age checking. If a child by our definition of under 18 shows up and is capable of doing what Hamas wants, they are in.



Just so you know, this also means that the UK employs child soldiers, in a much more systematic and legislated way than Hamas does.
RIP Meatloaf <3
Billyboy
Profile Joined September 2024
1013 Posts
October 19 2024 19:51 GMT
#7173
On October 20 2024 04:30 Salazarz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2024 04:24 Billyboy wrote:
How many are under 12, 12-15, 16-18 that data just plain does not exist. But what is certain is they exist and Hamas does no age checking. If a child by our definition of under 18 shows up and is capable of doing what Hamas wants, they are in.


Have you got any sources on that, or is that just what you believe?

Show nested quote +
On October 20 2024 04:24 Billyboy wrote:Can you quote any excuse I've made? Can you point out where I justify any dead kid? Of course not. What happened is you asked if Palestine used Child soldiers. I answered factually that Hamas did, you were somehow completely shocked by well known, easily verifiable fact and have created some narrative to keep you hate peaked or whatever your not sensible reason is.


By your definition of 'factual truth', Israel also uses child soldiers (which is basically how this entire line of conversation started). Of course, that definition is absolutely worthless for the purpose of this discussion as without delving into details like how often, in what capacity, or why, it really doesn't add anything other than 'yeah war sucks and people sometimes do shitty things in war' which is what everyone here at this point surely understands already.

Do I have any sources on them not having a registry of their soldiers that include demographics? No, because sources on things that don't exist, don't exist. But If you are able to find one, even without ages that just showed how many troops and other support they have lost that would be fantastic. The only things I can see are either IDF, which are questionable at best, or from Hamas that every single person is a civilian, even less useful.

There is lots of info on the Israeli stuff, more even because they are a democracy that follows much of the rules of the world (and even reports when they break them). Check the source below, you can cherry pick it how you like! (Or try something new and read all the info, your call).


https://documents.un.org/doc/undoc/gen/n22/344/71/pdf/n2234471.pdf
Billyboy
Profile Joined September 2024
1013 Posts
October 19 2024 19:53 GMT
#7174
On October 20 2024 04:51 Billyboy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2024 04:30 Salazarz wrote:
On October 20 2024 04:24 Billyboy wrote:
How many are under 12, 12-15, 16-18 that data just plain does not exist. But what is certain is they exist and Hamas does no age checking. If a child by our definition of under 18 shows up and is capable of doing what Hamas wants, they are in.


Have you got any sources on that, or is that just what you believe?

On October 20 2024 04:24 Billyboy wrote:Can you quote any excuse I've made? Can you point out where I justify any dead kid? Of course not. What happened is you asked if Palestine used Child soldiers. I answered factually that Hamas did, you were somehow completely shocked by well known, easily verifiable fact and have created some narrative to keep you hate peaked or whatever your not sensible reason is.


By your definition of 'factual truth', Israel also uses child soldiers (which is basically how this entire line of conversation started). Of course, that definition is absolutely worthless for the purpose of this discussion as without delving into details like how often, in what capacity, or why, it really doesn't add anything other than 'yeah war sucks and people sometimes do shitty things in war' which is what everyone here at this point surely understands already.

Do I have any sources on them not having a registry of their soldiers that include demographics? No, because sources on things that don't exist, don't exist. But If you are able to find one, even without ages that just showed how many troops and other support they have lost that would be fantastic. The only things I can see are either IDF, which are questionable at best, or from Hamas that every single person is a civilian, even less useful.

There is lots of info on the Israeli stuff, more even because they are a democracy that follows much of the rules of the world (and even reports when they break them). Check the source below, you can cherry pick it how you like! (Or try something new and read all the info, your call).


https://documents.un.org/doc/undoc/gen/n22/344/71/pdf/n2234471.pdf


On October 20 2024 04:37 Jockmcplop wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2024 04:24 Billyboy wrote:
On October 19 2024 23:09 Jockmcplop wrote:
On October 19 2024 22:47 Billyboy wrote:


On October 19 2024 21:58 Jockmcplop wrote:
I'd think there would be much more made of it if Hamas was deploying a child army.

Its more likely that any kids involved aren't actually armed or anything and are throwing rocks and basically acting like bait. That's Hamas tactics for you.

The young ones that is the case, that or suicide bombers. The older ones (still children by our definition) are having kids, raising them and joining the Hamas military wing. This is really not in dispute anywhere. Well other than here. There is lots made of it, just not certain "news" channels.

This seems to be very in doubt.
There's been instances for sure, but according to multiple sources, the worst of this was around 2000-2005 and even then an investigation found no systematic use of child soldiers.
Sure you can see the Hamas propaganda videos, and the brainwashing is almost certainly real, but they aren't fielding an army of child soldiers.
If you can provide a source that isn't based in Israel I'll take a look though.

You are never going to get exact numbers because Hamas is a terrorist org and not a regular government, the same way you are not getting any sort of numbers on casualties compared to civilians. I'd say amnesty international is a pretty decent source and not Israeli. But to whether there is 100 or 1000 or whatever who knows. How many are under 12, 12-15, 16-18 that data just plain does not exist. But what is certain is they exist and Hamas does no age checking. If a child by our definition of under 18 shows up and is capable of doing what Hamas wants, they are in.



Just so you know, this also means that the UK employs child soldiers, in a much more systematic and legislated way than Hamas does.


No it does not. But yes other countries use under 18 legislated and systematic, more is you making it up since we don't have that data and since no 14 year olds in the UK are suicide bombers, or caught carrying ammo and pipe bombs and stuff it is a terribly loaded presumption.
Jockmcplop
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom9646 Posts
October 19 2024 19:57 GMT
#7175
On October 20 2024 04:53 Billyboy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2024 04:51 Billyboy wrote:
On October 20 2024 04:30 Salazarz wrote:
On October 20 2024 04:24 Billyboy wrote:
How many are under 12, 12-15, 16-18 that data just plain does not exist. But what is certain is they exist and Hamas does no age checking. If a child by our definition of under 18 shows up and is capable of doing what Hamas wants, they are in.


Have you got any sources on that, or is that just what you believe?

On October 20 2024 04:24 Billyboy wrote:Can you quote any excuse I've made? Can you point out where I justify any dead kid? Of course not. What happened is you asked if Palestine used Child soldiers. I answered factually that Hamas did, you were somehow completely shocked by well known, easily verifiable fact and have created some narrative to keep you hate peaked or whatever your not sensible reason is.


By your definition of 'factual truth', Israel also uses child soldiers (which is basically how this entire line of conversation started). Of course, that definition is absolutely worthless for the purpose of this discussion as without delving into details like how often, in what capacity, or why, it really doesn't add anything other than 'yeah war sucks and people sometimes do shitty things in war' which is what everyone here at this point surely understands already.

Do I have any sources on them not having a registry of their soldiers that include demographics? No, because sources on things that don't exist, don't exist. But If you are able to find one, even without ages that just showed how many troops and other support they have lost that would be fantastic. The only things I can see are either IDF, which are questionable at best, or from Hamas that every single person is a civilian, even less useful.

There is lots of info on the Israeli stuff, more even because they are a democracy that follows much of the rules of the world (and even reports when they break them). Check the source below, you can cherry pick it how you like! (Or try something new and read all the info, your call).


https://documents.un.org/doc/undoc/gen/n22/344/71/pdf/n2234471.pdf


Show nested quote +
On October 20 2024 04:37 Jockmcplop wrote:
On October 20 2024 04:24 Billyboy wrote:
On October 19 2024 23:09 Jockmcplop wrote:
On October 19 2024 22:47 Billyboy wrote:


On October 19 2024 21:58 Jockmcplop wrote:
I'd think there would be much more made of it if Hamas was deploying a child army.

Its more likely that any kids involved aren't actually armed or anything and are throwing rocks and basically acting like bait. That's Hamas tactics for you.

The young ones that is the case, that or suicide bombers. The older ones (still children by our definition) are having kids, raising them and joining the Hamas military wing. This is really not in dispute anywhere. Well other than here. There is lots made of it, just not certain "news" channels.

This seems to be very in doubt.
There's been instances for sure, but according to multiple sources, the worst of this was around 2000-2005 and even then an investigation found no systematic use of child soldiers.
Sure you can see the Hamas propaganda videos, and the brainwashing is almost certainly real, but they aren't fielding an army of child soldiers.
If you can provide a source that isn't based in Israel I'll take a look though.

You are never going to get exact numbers because Hamas is a terrorist org and not a regular government, the same way you are not getting any sort of numbers on casualties compared to civilians. I'd say amnesty international is a pretty decent source and not Israeli. But to whether there is 100 or 1000 or whatever who knows. How many are under 12, 12-15, 16-18 that data just plain does not exist. But what is certain is they exist and Hamas does no age checking. If a child by our definition of under 18 shows up and is capable of doing what Hamas wants, they are in.



Just so you know, this also means that the UK employs child soldiers, in a much more systematic and legislated way than Hamas does.


No it does not. But yes other countries use under 18 legislated and systematic, more is you making it up since we don't have that data and since no 14 year olds in the UK are suicide bombers, or caught carrying ammo and pipe bombs and stuff it is a terribly loaded presumption.


What are you on about?

You JUST got finished saying that because the odd 17 year old might get a gun from Hamas, that means they employ child soldiers. We confirmed that investigations have found no systematic use of child soldiers by Hamas, and yet you just keep insisting that there is with zero evidence.

Post evidence or stop making stuff up.

Also Israel follows the rules of the world? Are you kidding me?
I suppose the fact that the UN, the ICC and most international law experts disagree with you is just because they are all anti-semitic lol
RIP Meatloaf <3
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria4091 Posts
October 19 2024 20:01 GMT
#7176
Interesting.
Hamas are not openly advertising their child soldier recruitment program. We know with certainty they're recruiting a large number of child soldiers.
Israel is not openly advocating for Palestinian genocide. We know with certainty they're not committing genocide.
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
Jockmcplop
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom9646 Posts
October 19 2024 20:14 GMT
#7177
On October 20 2024 05:01 Magic Powers wrote:
Interesting.
Hamas are not openly advertising their child soldier recruitment program. We know with certainty they're recruiting a large number of child soldiers.
Israel is not openly advocating for Palestinian genocide. We know with certainty they're not committing genocide.


And remember, Netenyahu could have negotiated to get the hostages back but instead deliberately undermined those negotiations at every opportunity, I posted the evidence of this.

The child soldiers discussion was originally an attempt to either explain or justify the massive amounts of child deaths in Gaza.

So we now know that those child deaths are not about the defense of Israel, but about Netenyahu staying in power a little bit longer, and THIS is the reason billyboy is inventing stuff about child soldiers? To justify Netenyahu killing thousands of kids for the sake of his own power.

RIP Meatloaf <3
Billyboy
Profile Joined September 2024
1013 Posts
October 19 2024 20:20 GMT
#7178
On October 20 2024 04:57 Jockmcplop wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2024 04:53 Billyboy wrote:
On October 20 2024 04:51 Billyboy wrote:
On October 20 2024 04:30 Salazarz wrote:
On October 20 2024 04:24 Billyboy wrote:
How many are under 12, 12-15, 16-18 that data just plain does not exist. But what is certain is they exist and Hamas does no age checking. If a child by our definition of under 18 shows up and is capable of doing what Hamas wants, they are in.


Have you got any sources on that, or is that just what you believe?

On October 20 2024 04:24 Billyboy wrote:Can you quote any excuse I've made? Can you point out where I justify any dead kid? Of course not. What happened is you asked if Palestine used Child soldiers. I answered factually that Hamas did, you were somehow completely shocked by well known, easily verifiable fact and have created some narrative to keep you hate peaked or whatever your not sensible reason is.


By your definition of 'factual truth', Israel also uses child soldiers (which is basically how this entire line of conversation started). Of course, that definition is absolutely worthless for the purpose of this discussion as without delving into details like how often, in what capacity, or why, it really doesn't add anything other than 'yeah war sucks and people sometimes do shitty things in war' which is what everyone here at this point surely understands already.

Do I have any sources on them not having a registry of their soldiers that include demographics? No, because sources on things that don't exist, don't exist. But If you are able to find one, even without ages that just showed how many troops and other support they have lost that would be fantastic. The only things I can see are either IDF, which are questionable at best, or from Hamas that every single person is a civilian, even less useful.

There is lots of info on the Israeli stuff, more even because they are a democracy that follows much of the rules of the world (and even reports when they break them). Check the source below, you can cherry pick it how you like! (Or try something new and read all the info, your call).


https://documents.un.org/doc/undoc/gen/n22/344/71/pdf/n2234471.pdf


On October 20 2024 04:37 Jockmcplop wrote:
On October 20 2024 04:24 Billyboy wrote:
On October 19 2024 23:09 Jockmcplop wrote:
On October 19 2024 22:47 Billyboy wrote:


On October 19 2024 21:58 Jockmcplop wrote:
I'd think there would be much more made of it if Hamas was deploying a child army.

Its more likely that any kids involved aren't actually armed or anything and are throwing rocks and basically acting like bait. That's Hamas tactics for you.

The young ones that is the case, that or suicide bombers. The older ones (still children by our definition) are having kids, raising them and joining the Hamas military wing. This is really not in dispute anywhere. Well other than here. There is lots made of it, just not certain "news" channels.

This seems to be very in doubt.
There's been instances for sure, but according to multiple sources, the worst of this was around 2000-2005 and even then an investigation found no systematic use of child soldiers.
Sure you can see the Hamas propaganda videos, and the brainwashing is almost certainly real, but they aren't fielding an army of child soldiers.
If you can provide a source that isn't based in Israel I'll take a look though.

You are never going to get exact numbers because Hamas is a terrorist org and not a regular government, the same way you are not getting any sort of numbers on casualties compared to civilians. I'd say amnesty international is a pretty decent source and not Israeli. But to whether there is 100 or 1000 or whatever who knows. How many are under 12, 12-15, 16-18 that data just plain does not exist. But what is certain is they exist and Hamas does no age checking. If a child by our definition of under 18 shows up and is capable of doing what Hamas wants, they are in.



Just so you know, this also means that the UK employs child soldiers, in a much more systematic and legislated way than Hamas does.


No it does not. But yes other countries use under 18 legislated and systematic, more is you making it up since we don't have that data and since no 14 year olds in the UK are suicide bombers, or caught carrying ammo and pipe bombs and stuff it is a terribly loaded presumption.


What are you on about?

You JUST got finished saying that because the odd 17 year old might get a gun from Hamas, that means they employ child soldiers. We confirmed that investigations have found no systematic use of child soldiers by Hamas, and yet you just keep insisting that there is with zero evidence.

Post evidence or stop making stuff up.

Also Israel follows the rules of the world? Are you kidding me?
I suppose the fact that the UN, the ICC and most international law experts disagree with you is just because they are all anti-semitic lol

You not reading the sources is not me saying that. When I said the 17 year old thing that is one end of the spectrum not the only thing. You are the best of the bunch here in having a reasonable conversation but it is still near impossible when you are looking for loopholes or reasons to be mad instead of at the actual information. It is not like I'm not providing sources that also provide tons of info on the what the IDF is doing or the worse things that the Israeli settlers are doing as well. Again not my problem if you don't read them.

It is factual that Hamas and all of Iranian proxies use child soldiers, it is also factual that they use less total and as a percentage than in some of the African conflicts.

It is also factual that when you look into Child soldiers they also talk about the use of them as human shields, but I don't want to bring that up (even though it is extremely true) because you guys somehow think that makes the childrens deaths acceptable, even though it obviously does not.

Here is another quote.

In 2005 Amnesty International condemned the use of children by Palestinian militant groups saying: "Palestinian armed groups have repeatedly shown total disregard for the most fundamental human rights, notably the right to life, by deliberately targeting Israeli civilians and by using Palestinian children in armed attacks."



Here is some of the info from the second source.

The United Nations verified 2,934 grave violations against 1,208 Palestinian
children and 9 Israeli children (915 boys, 302 girls) in the occupied West Bank,
including East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip and Israel.
85. The United Nations verified the recruitment of one Palestinian boy by the
Mujahidin Brigades in Gaza. In addition, the recruitment and use of one boy by
Hamas’ Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades in 2019 was verified in 2021. In Gaza,
Palestinian Islamic Jihad’s Al-Quds Brigades, Hamas’ Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades,
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine Abu Ali Mustafa Brigades and
Palestinian Mujahidin Movement Mujahidin Brigades, organized “summer camps”
for adults and children as young as 14, exposing them to military content and
activities.
86. The United Nations verified the detention of 637 Palestinian children for alleged
security offences by Israeli forces in the occupied West Bank, including 557 in East
Jerusalem. Among those children, 85 reported ill-treatment and breaches of due
process by Israeli forces while in detention, with 75 per cent reporting having
experienced physical violence.


On October 20 2024 05:01 Magic Powers wrote:
Interesting.
Hamas are not openly advertising their child soldier recruitment program. We know with certainty they're recruiting a large number of child soldiers.
Israel is not openly advocating for Palestinian genocide. We know with certainty they're not committing genocide.

Wow another terrible strawman good job! I look forward to your next post about quitting the thread until X and or stopping responding to some one and lasting hours or less.

Billyboy
Profile Joined September 2024
1013 Posts
October 19 2024 20:21 GMT
#7179
That you guys who maybe have hive mind that I agree with every poster who does not agree with you is dumb and plain wrong. I believe what I say. It is really not hard to figure it out I post very directly.
Jockmcplop
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom9646 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-10-19 20:37:35
October 19 2024 20:32 GMT
#7180
On October 20 2024 05:20 Billyboy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2024 04:57 Jockmcplop wrote:
On October 20 2024 04:53 Billyboy wrote:
On October 20 2024 04:51 Billyboy wrote:
On October 20 2024 04:30 Salazarz wrote:
On October 20 2024 04:24 Billyboy wrote:
How many are under 12, 12-15, 16-18 that data just plain does not exist. But what is certain is they exist and Hamas does no age checking. If a child by our definition of under 18 shows up and is capable of doing what Hamas wants, they are in.


Have you got any sources on that, or is that just what you believe?

On October 20 2024 04:24 Billyboy wrote:Can you quote any excuse I've made? Can you point out where I justify any dead kid? Of course not. What happened is you asked if Palestine used Child soldiers. I answered factually that Hamas did, you were somehow completely shocked by well known, easily verifiable fact and have created some narrative to keep you hate peaked or whatever your not sensible reason is.


By your definition of 'factual truth', Israel also uses child soldiers (which is basically how this entire line of conversation started). Of course, that definition is absolutely worthless for the purpose of this discussion as without delving into details like how often, in what capacity, or why, it really doesn't add anything other than 'yeah war sucks and people sometimes do shitty things in war' which is what everyone here at this point surely understands already.

Do I have any sources on them not having a registry of their soldiers that include demographics? No, because sources on things that don't exist, don't exist. But If you are able to find one, even without ages that just showed how many troops and other support they have lost that would be fantastic. The only things I can see are either IDF, which are questionable at best, or from Hamas that every single person is a civilian, even less useful.

There is lots of info on the Israeli stuff, more even because they are a democracy that follows much of the rules of the world (and even reports when they break them). Check the source below, you can cherry pick it how you like! (Or try something new and read all the info, your call).


https://documents.un.org/doc/undoc/gen/n22/344/71/pdf/n2234471.pdf


On October 20 2024 04:37 Jockmcplop wrote:
On October 20 2024 04:24 Billyboy wrote:
On October 19 2024 23:09 Jockmcplop wrote:
On October 19 2024 22:47 Billyboy wrote:


On October 19 2024 21:58 Jockmcplop wrote:
I'd think there would be much more made of it if Hamas was deploying a child army.

Its more likely that any kids involved aren't actually armed or anything and are throwing rocks and basically acting like bait. That's Hamas tactics for you.

The young ones that is the case, that or suicide bombers. The older ones (still children by our definition) are having kids, raising them and joining the Hamas military wing. This is really not in dispute anywhere. Well other than here. There is lots made of it, just not certain "news" channels.

This seems to be very in doubt.
There's been instances for sure, but according to multiple sources, the worst of this was around 2000-2005 and even then an investigation found no systematic use of child soldiers.
Sure you can see the Hamas propaganda videos, and the brainwashing is almost certainly real, but they aren't fielding an army of child soldiers.
If you can provide a source that isn't based in Israel I'll take a look though.

You are never going to get exact numbers because Hamas is a terrorist org and not a regular government, the same way you are not getting any sort of numbers on casualties compared to civilians. I'd say amnesty international is a pretty decent source and not Israeli. But to whether there is 100 or 1000 or whatever who knows. How many are under 12, 12-15, 16-18 that data just plain does not exist. But what is certain is they exist and Hamas does no age checking. If a child by our definition of under 18 shows up and is capable of doing what Hamas wants, they are in.



Just so you know, this also means that the UK employs child soldiers, in a much more systematic and legislated way than Hamas does.


No it does not. But yes other countries use under 18 legislated and systematic, more is you making it up since we don't have that data and since no 14 year olds in the UK are suicide bombers, or caught carrying ammo and pipe bombs and stuff it is a terribly loaded presumption.


What are you on about?

You JUST got finished saying that because the odd 17 year old might get a gun from Hamas, that means they employ child soldiers. We confirmed that investigations have found no systematic use of child soldiers by Hamas, and yet you just keep insisting that there is with zero evidence.

Post evidence or stop making stuff up.

Also Israel follows the rules of the world? Are you kidding me?
I suppose the fact that the UN, the ICC and most international law experts disagree with you is just because they are all anti-semitic lol

You not reading the sources is not me saying that. When I said the 17 year old thing that is one end of the spectrum not the only thing. You are the best of the bunch here in having a reasonable conversation but it is still near impossible when you are looking for loopholes or reasons to be mad instead of at the actual information. It is not like I'm not providing sources that also provide tons of info on the what the IDF is doing or the worse things that the Israeli settlers are doing as well. Again not my problem if you don't read them.

It is factual that Hamas and all of Iranian proxies use child soldiers, it is also factual that they use less total and as a percentage than in some of the African conflicts.

It is also factual that when you look into Child soldiers they also talk about the use of them as human shields, but I don't want to bring that up (even though it is extremely true) because you guys somehow think that makes the childrens deaths acceptable, even though it obviously does not.

Here is another quote.

Show nested quote +
In 2005 Amnesty International condemned the use of children by Palestinian militant groups saying: "Palestinian armed groups have repeatedly shown total disregard for the most fundamental human rights, notably the right to life, by deliberately targeting Israeli civilians and by using Palestinian children in armed attacks."



Here is some of the info from the second source.

Show nested quote +
The United Nations verified 2,934 grave violations against 1,208 Palestinian
children and 9 Israeli children (915 boys, 302 girls) in the occupied West Bank,
including East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip and Israel.
85. The United Nations verified the recruitment of one Palestinian boy by the
Mujahidin Brigades in Gaza. In addition, the recruitment and use of one boy by
Hamas’ Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades in 2019 was verified in 2021. In Gaza,
Palestinian Islamic Jihad’s Al-Quds Brigades, Hamas’ Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades,
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine Abu Ali Mustafa Brigades and
Palestinian Mujahidin Movement Mujahidin Brigades, organized “summer camps”
for adults and children as young as 14, exposing them to military content and
activities.
86. The United Nations verified the detention of 637 Palestinian children for alleged
security offences by Israeli forces in the occupied West Bank, including 557 in East
Jerusalem. Among those children, 85 reported ill-treatment and breaches of due
process by Israeli forces while in detention, with 75 per cent reporting having
experienced physical violence.





So we have verified the active recruitment of one boy and exposure to 'military content and activities' (which I was exposed to in school from the age of 11).

The violations against children it is talking about are mostly Israel mistreating Palestinian children.

You can read the whole page:
94. On 7 October 2023, Hamas’ Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades and other Palestinian armed groups in the Gaza Strip launched a large-scale armed attack on Israel which included numerous acts of terror. In addition, some 250 people, including women and children, were abducted and taken into the Gaza Strip, with some subsequently released, including during a seven-day humanitarian pause that started on 24 November. The violence that has been perpetrated since 7 October in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territory – particularly in and around the Gaza Strip – has shaken the region and devastated the lives of millions of Palestinians and Israelis. The scale of death and destruction is shocking and unprecedented.

95. The United Nations verified 8,009 grave violations against 4,360 children (3,139 boys, 1,221 girls; Israeli children (113), Palestinian children (4,247)) in Israel (120); the occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem (4,868); and in the Gaza Strip (3,021).

96. Verified grave violations were attributed to Israeli armed and security forces (5,698), Hamas’ Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades (116), unidentified perpetrators (58), Israeli settlers (51), Palestinian Islamic Jihad’s Al-Quds Brigades (21), individual Palestinian perpetrators (13) and Palestinian Authority Security Forces (1). In addition, the process of attribution of verified violations (2,051) is ongoing.

97. Owing to severe access challenges, in particular in the Gaza Strip, the information presented herein does not represent the full scale of violations against children in this situation. 2023 saw a significant increase in violations, and the last quarter of the year witnessed widespread violence by all parties to the conflict; over 23,000 grave violations against children (3,900 Israeli children, 19,887 Palestinian children) by all parties to the conflict were reported and are pending verification.

98. The United Nations verified 136 violations against 113 Israeli children (66 boys, 47 girls) in Israel (120), the occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem (15), and the Gaza Strip (1) by Hamas’ Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades and other armed groups (116), Palestinian Islamic Jihad’s Al-Quds Brigades (1), individual Palestinian perpetrators (12), and unidentified perpetrators (7). Six children were victims of multiple violations.

99. The United Nations verified the use of two Israeli boys by Hamas’ Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades (1) and Palestinian Islamic Jihad’s Al-Quds Brigades (1) in Israel (1) and in the Gaza Strip (1) to accompany Hamas’ Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades in house-to-house searches and to film a video.

100. The United Nations verified that 43 Israeli children (29 boys, 14 girls) had been killed in Israel (37) during acts of terror on 7 October (live ammunition (27), crossfire (2), burned (1) and by rockets (7)), and in the occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem (6), in shooting (4) and vehicle-ramming (2) attacks.

101. Israeli children were verified as having been maimed (27) (19 boys, 8 girls) in Israel (18) and in the occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem (9). Israeli children were maimed (13) during attacks on 7 October (live ammunition (7), shrapnel (5) and burns (1)). In addition, in the occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and in northern Israel, children were maimed (14) by rocket fire (4), in shooting or stabbing attacks (6), and incidents of stone-throwing (4). Some 3,900 Israeli children were reported maimed and the reports are pending verification.

102. Perpetrators include Hamas’ Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades and other Palestinian armed groups (54), individual Palestinian perpetrators (12), and unidentified perpetrators (4) including during crossfire between Hamas’ Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades and Israeli armed and security forces (4).

103. Sexual violence against Israeli civilians, including children, in the context of the 7 October attacks in southern Israel, was reported.

104. The United Nations verified 17 attacks on schools (2) and hospitals (15) in Israel, including on health facilities (4), ambulances (4) and protected personnel (7), by Hamas’ Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades and other Palestinian armed groups (14) and unidentified perpetrators (3). Israeli schools were closed for weeks following the 7 October attacks. In addition, the United Nations verified the military use of a school by Hamas’ Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades and other Palestinian armed groups in Israel. There are numerous other reports of the use of human shields by Hamas’ Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades and other Palestinian armed groups in the Gaza Strip.

105. A total of 47 Israeli children (20 boys, 27 girls) were abducted by Hamas’ Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades and other Palestinian armed groups in southern Israel, 36 of whom were held hostage and subjected to ill-treatment in the Gaza Strip by Hamas’ Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, Palestinian Islamic Jihad’s Al-Quds Brigades, the Palestinian Mujahidin Movement Mujahidin Brigades and other Palestinian armed groups. Two boys were still being held as at December 2023. Children held hostage in the Gaza Strip continue to be denied humanitarian access and assistance. The remaining 11 children were abducted by Hamas’ Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, Palestinian Islamic Jihad’s Al-Quds Brigades and other Palestinian armed groups during the 7 October attacks in southern Israel and escaped or were released (8) or were killed (3).

106. The United Nations verified 7,873 violations against 4,247 Palestinian children (3,073 boys, 1,174 girls), in the occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem (4,853), and the Gaza Strip (3,020). Violations were perpetrated by Israeli armed and security forces (5,698), Israeli settlers (51), unidentified perpetrators (51), Palestinian Islamic Jihad’s Al-Quds Brigades and other Palestinian armed groups (20), individual Palestinian perpetrators (1) and Palestinian Authority Security Forces (1). In addition, the process of attribution regarding the verified killing of Palestinian children (2,051) that occurred between 7 October and 31 December in the Gaza Strip is ongoing. Five children were victims of multiple violations.

107. In the occupied West Bank, the United Nations verified the use of Palestinian boys (5) by Israeli armed and security forces to shield forces during law enforcement operations. Three children reported that Israeli armed and security forces had attempted to recruit them as informants. During 2023 in the Gaza Strip, Hamas’ Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades and Palestinian Islamic Jihad’s Al-Quds Brigades organized “summer camps”, including for children, exposing them to military content and activities.

108. The United Nations verified the detention of 906 Palestinian children (897 boys, 9 girls) for alleged security offences by Israeli armed and security forces in the occupied West Bank (435), East Jerusalem (458) and the Gaza Strip (13). Israeli authorities reported that 49 Palestinian children were held under administrative detention as at 31 December. The United Nations received the testimonies of 84 children who reported ill-treatment by Israeli armed and security forces while in detention. Further, the United Nations received reports of the detention of Palestinian children in the Gaza Strip, compounded by multiple forms of sexual violence.

109. The United Nations verified the killing of 2,267 Palestinian children (1,259 boys, 1,008 girls) in the Gaza Strip (2,141) and the occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem (126), by Israeli armed and security forces (206), Palestinian Islamic Jihad’s Al-Quds Brigades or other Palestinian armed groups (2), Israeli settlers (1), Palestinian Authority Security Forces (PASF) (1) and unidentified perpetrators (6) (improvised explosive devices (4) and crossfire between PASF and armed Palestinians (1)). Of the total, 9 children (7 boys, 2 girls) were killed between
1 January and 6 October 2023, by Israeli armed and security forces (5), Palestinian Islamic Jihad’s Al-Quds Brigades and other Palestinian armed groups (2), and unidentified perpetrators (2). In addition, the process of attribution regarding the verified killing of Palestinian children (2,051) that occurred between 7 October and 31 December in the Gaza Strip is ongoing. Most incidents were caused by the use of explosive weapons in populated areas by Israeli armed and security forces. Furthermore, in the Gaza Strip, some 9,100 children were reported killed and
verification is ongoing. In the occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem, most Palestinian children were verified as having been killed by Israeli armed and security forces (120), by live ammunition (102) and air strikes (18), during Israeli armed and security forces’ law enforcement operations, many in circumstances raising concerns of unwarranted or excessive use of force, including militarized operations and operations leading to armed exchanges with Palestinians, and in relation to attacks or alleged attacks on Israeli civilians or forces (9). Some 19,887 Palestinian children were reported killed or maimed and the reports are pending verification.

110. A total of 1,975 Palestinian children (1,809 boys, 166 girls) were verified as maimed in the occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem (1,825), and in the Gaza Strip (150). The main perpetrators were Israeli armed and security forces (1,892), Israeli settlers (36), Palestinian Islamic Jihad’s Al-Quds Brigades or other Palestinian armed groups (18), individual Palestinian perpetrators (1) and unidentified perpetrators (28), including by explosive ordnance (13). The main causes of maiming in the occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem, were teargas inhalation (1,187: 1,079 boys, 108 girls), live ammunition (433) and rubber-coated metal bullets (70), in the context of law enforcement operations (979). Further, reports of some 10,787
maimed children in the Gaza Strip are pending verification.

111. The United Nations verified 371 attacks on schools (45) and hospitals (326), including on protected persons in relation to schools and/or hospitals (104), attributed to Israeli armed and security forces (340), Israeli settlers (14) and unidentified perpetrators (17), in the occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem (188), and in the Gaza Strip (183). Incidents involved attacks and threats of attack on health facilities (118), medical personnel (102) and ambulances (106), and attacks on schools (43) and education personnel (2). In addition, the United Nations verified incidents of the military use (5) of ambulances by Israeli armed and security forces (4) and a health centre by Hamas’ Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades (1). Separately, 561
other interferences with education (461) and health (100) by Israeli armed and security forces (443), Israeli settlers (24) and unidentified perpetrators (94) were verified. Schools in the Gaza Strip have remained closed since 7 October 2023, affecting 625,000 children.

112. The denial of humanitarian access by Israeli armed and security forces (3,250) was verified in the occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem (2,698) and in the Gaza Strip (546). A total of 3,227 permit applications (1,895 for boys, 1,332 for girls) to Israeli authorities for children to exit the Gaza Strip through the Erez crossing point, or from the occupied West Bank, to gain access to specialized medical treatment were denied or not approved in time to reach scheduled hospital appointments, while 17,693 applications were approved. On 7 October 2023, the Erez crossing point was closed. Following the attack on 7 October, Israel declared and imposed a siege of the Gaza Strip on 9 October. The United Nations verified 23 denials of humanitarian access by Israeli authorities related to denied coordination of humanitarian aid missions and prevention of access to medical care. In the context of Israeli armed and security forces military operations in the Gaza Strip, humanitarian personnel were killed, including 144 United Nations personnel, and nearly all critical infrastructure, facilities and services have been attacked, including shelter sites, United Nations installations, schools, hospitals, water and sanitation facilities, grain mills and bakeries. Access restrictions, water and fuel shortages and electricity and telecommunications blackouts also impeded access to humanitarian services. Children are at risk of famine, severe malnutrition and preventable death.

Developments and concerns
113. I am appalled by the dramatic increase and unprecedented scale and intensity of grave violations against children in the Gaza Strip, Israel and the occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem, despite my repeated calls for parties to implement measures to end grave violations. I reiterate my urgent call upon Israel, Hamas’ Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, Palestinian Islamic Jihad’s Al-Quds Brigades and other Palestinian armed groups to take meaningful measures to comply with international humanitarian and human rights law, urgently and immediately agree to a humanitarian ceasefire, and facilitate the immediate and unconditional release of all hostages and for them to be treated humanely. In the interim, they must be allowed to receive visits from the International Committee of the Red Cross. I reiterate that international humanitarian law requires the parties to treat children affected by armed conflict as
persons who are entitled to special respect and protection. I repeat my call for an end to all violations of international humanitarian law.

114. I am shocked at the killing and maiming and abduction of children by Hamas’ Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, Palestinian Islamic Jihad’s Al-Quds Brigades and other Palestinian armed groups. Nothing can justify the brutal acts of terror that were committed and the deliberate killing, maiming, torture and abduction of civilians and other protected persons. I am appalled by the reports of sexual violence during the attacks; these must be investigated and prosecuted. I call upon all Palestinian armed groups to abide by their obligations under international humanitarian law and refrain from attacks that target civilians, including children, and from indiscriminate attacks, including the launching of rockets and mortars from densely populated areas in the Gaza Strip towards Israeli civilian population centres. I call upon Hamas’ Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades and other Palestinian armed groups to release immediately and unconditionally all hostages, including children, and facilitate access for humanitarian actors. I am deeply concerned by reports that children held hostage were subjected to threats, violence and ill-treatment. I call upon Palestinian armed groups to protect schools and hospitals, including protected persons in relation to schools and/or hospitals.

115. I am shocked by the unprecedented number of children killed and maimed by Israeli armed and security forces in the Gaza Strip and the occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem. The magnitude of the Israeli military campaign against Hamas’ Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades and the scope of death and destruction in the Gaza Strip have been unprecedented. I reiterate my calls upon Israel to abide by international humanitarian law and human rights law and ensure that civilians, including children, and civilian infrastructure are not targeted, and that incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians and damage to civilian objects are not caused in violation of the principle of proportionality in international humanitarian law, and to ensure that all feasible precautions are taken to avoid, and in any event to minimize, such incidental loss, injury or damage in the conduct of military operations. I am deeply concerned regarding the excessive use of force during law enforcement operations and reiterate that security forces must exercise maximum restraint and use intentional lethal force only when it is strictly unavoidable in order to protect life and put in place preventive and protective measures to minimize damage and injury, including damage and injury that affect children. I further urge Israel to pursue accountability for violations against children. I exhort Israel to take immediate steps to protect schools and hospitals, including ambulances and protected persons in
relation to schools and/or hospitals, and refrain from attacking them or using them for military purposes. Further, I am deeply concerned by the alarming increase in the number of children arrested and detained by Israel and by the reports by children of physical violence directed against them during detention. I reiterate my call upon Israel to uphold international juvenile justice standards, including the use of detention only as a last resort and for the shortest period of time, to immediately end the administrative detention of children, to prevent any violence and ill-treatment in detention and to prevent attempted use of children as informants.

116. I urge all parties to conflict to immediately end and prevent grave violations against children and to urgently engage with my Special Representative and the United Nations working group on children and armed conflict on the ground, on the basis of the letters previously addressed by Israel, Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad to my Special Representative in 2022 and 2023, and to adopt immediately clear, time-bound commitments to end and prevent grave violations against children, as proposed by the United Nations, and to comply with international humanitarian law and international human rights law.

117. I am deeply alarmed about the deteriorating humanitarian conditions, and by attacks against humanitarian workers, including the killing of United Nations personnel. I call upon Israel to grant full, rapid, safe and unhindered access for humanitarian aid and personnel into and within the Gaza Strip. The United Nations and its partners cannot effectively deliver humanitarian aid while the Gaza Strip is under heavy, widespread and unrelenting military operations, including air strikes. I call upon all parties to conflict to respect the humanitarian notification system so as to maximize the safety of aid operations.


Still, would I be surprised if alot of Palestinian kids aged 15-18 were picking up guns and trying to defend their families from the Israeli machine of death and destruction raging around their homes? Not really.

Still, Netenyahu's gotta stay in power, so its all worth it.
RIP Meatloaf <3
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