Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine - Page 356

On October 14 2024 14:34 pmp10 wrote:
It seems US will be deploying missile defences directly to Israel.
Clearly they don't think that previous Iran retaliation was the last one.
Apparently foreign troops stationed in Israel is pretty unusual, but one case were Patriot batteries deployed in 1991.
Supposedly, back then Israel was given them in exchange for not retaliating too hard against Iraq.
History rymes.

In either case the preparations for escalation will have global implications and are bad news for Ukraine.
Any missile war with Iran might leave them short of patriots to defend their infrastructure.

On October 14 2024 22:55 PremoBeats wrote:


Which testimonies and data do you mean?
Perhaps I haven't made myself clear: I don't deny that horrible things, mistakes and actual war crimes happened.
I am rather posing questions if they simply paint a picture that is truly representative of the whole conflict (hence before I spoke of dozens of singular instances... I don't deny them. I simply question how much they represent the whole conflict of thousands of encounters weekly).

I used the civilian casualty rate before to counter the claims of "genocide" and "deliberate targeting of Palestinian civilians". These allegations simply make no sense when we compare civilian casualty rates with similar conflicts, where the IDF fares much better than other factions, despite Hamas' human shield tactics.
Things like Israelis forcing Palestinians into tunnels to check for booby traps happened nevertheless. Or attacks on humanitarian convoys for whatever reasons. But my point is, that all of this is happening in each and every war and that Israel is faring much better than other factions in comparison, despite the hurdles that are unique to Gaza.

And the power dynamic - in my opinion - is completely irrelevant, if the inferior side keeps attacking. I don't know if you read my stance on this before, but I think, that to surrender or not re-engage is the responsibility of the inferior force (in this context: let the hostages go and stop fighting immediately).
And it is the responsibility of the superior force to present conditions and terms that prevent escalation in the future (see Versailles. In this context: de-settlement, plans for bringing infrastructure to Gaza).
Israel is stronger by far, but it cannot leave the targeted attack on civilians, mass abduction and displacement go without doing anything - no country could. And I wouldn't even mind, if Hamas was fighting only for the freedom of Gazans and attacking military targets.
But they don't. They disregard the needs of their population to fight a war of terror against the state that they want to eradicate with the support of other Islamic extremist groups.

And I think my stance is the reason, people hardly engage with me.
They cannot answer what Israel should have done after October 7th, except put ALL blame on them and dodging the question.
They cannot answer how to get rid of Hamas in Gaza, which is the primary hurdle that stands in the way of a more prosperous Gaza as 2007 and onward have shown.
They also cannot answer what to do about the over 100 hostages if Israel goes along with their suggestion of an immediate cease-fire.
Because there are no easy solutions.

On October 15 2024 04:14 Nebuchad wrote:
I feel forced to remind people once again that the deals for a ceasefire that Israel rejected included releasing all the hostages, that Netanyahu knows this and purposely let the hostages continue to be hostages in order to continue his aggression, and that Premo also knows this and is just using the existence of the hostages in a cold and dishonest fashion in order to look like he has more points to score in his traditional sealioning.

On October 15 2024 06:05 Billyboy wrote:

Could you source this? The last I was reading all about the negotiations was when all parties had agreed to a ceasefire (I believe at least 6 weeks) for 100 hostages, but then it came out that Hamas didn't know where they were and it was some number of live hostage's and bodies but couldn't confirm the number of live ones (I think I remember around 30) or that they could even get enough of the bodies to add up to 100.

Mind you this was a while ago. I'd like to read the updates.

On October 15 2024 06:30 Nebuchad wrote:


We are probably talking about the same thing. Something like this works probably? https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20240706-hamas-drops-key-demand-to-accept-phased-us-deal-on-ceasefire-hostages

On October 15 2024 07:07 Billyboy wrote:

Then your framing seems a off. That being said you have "leaks" giving out all the info so who knows what is the true story. I just remember there being almost a victory lap from the Americans and the Qatari before it came out that Hamas couldn't deliver. Then what Hamas was giving kept getting smaller but still could not deliver, then talks were off and shortly after that Israel blew up the Hamas lead negotiator. After that I didn't really see anything else come up.

My impression was neither Hamas nor Netanyahu actually wanted peace and they were both just going through the motions.

But Israel’s “supreme effort” has not been unstinting; Netanyahu’s own defense minister and security chiefs have made clear for months — in numerous closed-door security consultations and sometimes publicly — their belief that the prime minister could and should have been more flexible in his efforts to draw Hamas into an agreement. Some of them have also credibly charged that the prime minister has been influenced by his own political considerations, amid warnings from his far-right partners that they would bring down his government if he cut what they consider to be a reckless deal.

[...]

Blindsided by the vote, a horrified Defense Minister Yoav Gallant, according to widely leaked transcripts of the meeting, argued that it risked torpedoing the deal and thus dooming the hostages. “The significance of this is that Hamas won’t agree to it, so there won’t be an agreement and there won’t be any hostages released,” Gallant reportedly told the ministers.

Netanyahu replied: “This is the decision.”

Gallant, though isolated in a forum dominated by Netanyahu loyalists along with the far-right ministers Itamar Ben Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich, tried again: He reportedly told his ministerial colleagues that, if they approved the maps, they would be choosing to maintain the IDF’s deployment on the Philadelphi Corridor for six more weeks at the price of failing to bring home hostages. “Does this seem logical to you?” Gallant reportedly asked. “There are living (hostages) there!”

The cabinet endorsed the maps, by eight votes to one (Gallant’s).

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in July effectively spiked a draft hostage and ceasefire deal by introducing a raft of new, 11th-hour demands, according to a report by the Israeli newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth citing a document it obtained.

The report lends credence to charges often leveled at the prime minister – most notably by hostage families – of purposefully prolonging the war and torpedoing deals for his political benefit. Far-right members of Netanyahu’s coalition have pledged to bring down the government should he end the war.

[...]

But separately, an Israeli source familiar with the talks said Netanyahu’s demands were to blame for the deaths of the hostages over the weekend.

“Two months ago, when he (Netanyahu) put the obstacles, he said no to the deal,” the source told CNN. “The hostages died because he insisted.”

The Hostages Families Forum said this weekend that “the finding of the bodies yesterday is a direct result of Netanyahu’s thwarting of the deals.”

On July 25, a senior US Administration official told CNN that negotiators were “closer than we’ve ever been” and that it was “up to the Israelis to accept it.”

On October 15 2024 07:15 Nebuchad wrote:


Okay. I also have a few articles from september where people in Netanyahu's cabinet seemed quite ready to put the blame on Netanyahu for the ceasefire deals failing if you're interested, for example these two:



https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahus-so-called-supreme-effort-for-a-hostage-ceasefire-deal-has-been-skewed-inadequate/



https://edition.cnn.com/2024/09/04/middleeast/netanyahu-derailed-hostage-deal-in-july-intl/index.html

On October 15 2024 02:18 WombaT wrote:

But what similar conflicts are there? I’ve posited this about 5 separate times in this thread, while you answer other things thoroughly to be fair. But you’re complaining about not having people engage you, I’ve engaged you on this point multiple times.

The power asymmetry is quite impactful, as is the sophisticated hardware component.

Two factions of vaguely equivalent military capability, at least in a sophistication level if not in numbers, who go actually toe to toe in a civil war, where they don’t have some of the most advanced military kit going are almost invariably going to do more damage to the civilian population.

Two 11 year olds throwing haymakers might do each other a fair amount of damage. Whereas I, as a 34 year old man don’t have to beat the shit out of my 11 year old if he hits me.

I just don’t think there are particularly equivalent conflicts with which to set some benchmark and judge Israel versus said benchmark.

I mean what’s the comparison with civilian casualties in Iraq or Afghanistan caused by the ‘coalition of the willing’? I don’t think that’s a particularly equivalent conflict, outside of a gigantic military tech superiority, and I stand by my previous statements that there aren’t really particularly comparable conflicts.

I’ve also heard people say ‘what if the British just bombed the shit out of Northern Ireland to try and root out the IRA’, which I think is ridiculous as well, it didn’t happen and also as much as we like to wail about the Troubles over here it’s not even remotely in the same ballpark as this conflict.

What should Israel have done post October 7th? It’s unpalatable but I agree that it’s effectively inconceivable they don’t respond in some fashion. My issue is primarily with policy during ‘peacetime’, and the sheer extent of their response.

If how to get rid of Hamas was a simple solution, the international community could have figured it out by now. I, as a humble Liquidian doesn’t have much of a shot.

I’m not Israeli, I’m not particularly sympathetic to Israelis beyond equal opportunity empathy. What to do about 100 hostages isn’t to kill tens of thousands of civilians. However, I know this kind of attitude isn’t realistic for their compatriots, much less their loved ones. Rare indeed is the soul who would abandon their nearest and dearest for the greater utilitarian good, so it’s not something I’m too judgemental on. Especially as my nation alongside the US blazed an incredibly destructive trail through the Middle East, destabilised the region etc effectively for impotent revenge.

And I do have some sympathy with Israel in some domains, just not in their dealings with the Palestinian people. They may couch it in solidarity but I don’t really buy it when it comes to an Iran, or Hezbollah

On October 16 2024 20:01 Magic Powers wrote:
The argument is this:
"Horrible atrocities were committed in other wars, too. That makes the current atrocities ok because we expect atrocities to be committed in war. Also, Hamas. Did I say Hamas yet?"

On October 16 2024 23:28 Magic Powers wrote:
No worries though, Israel is investigating itself. A Hamas command center was precisely targeted and that's why only one hospital compound was burned down in its entirety. And a large number of tents. Could've been a lot worse if more human shields were present.

https://news.sky.com/story/israel-gaza-hezbollah-lebanon-un-iran-hamas-latest-sky-news-live-12978800?postid=8450695#liveblog-body

On October 17 2024 20:35 Magic Powers wrote:

"The reason why I killed your entire family as well as the families in your neighborhood might be good and just, just the procedure isn't."

Lets just ignore that you ever said that and move on.