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Northern Ireland27188 Posts
On October 14 2024 15:47 KT_Elwood wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2024 23:33 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 13 2024 20:20 KT_Elwood wrote:On October 11 2024 20:37 Magic Powers wrote:On October 11 2024 17:15 KT_Elwood wrote:
Totally agree. Israel shall anhihilate hamas and hezbollah and then offer occupation and reeducation and a fair chance.
But for now, it's total war and nobody stops it. Gaza spent almost 20 years digging tunnels and making rockets from waterpipes.
Israel has iron dome and GBUs.
Reeducate the Untermenschen, they need saving from the master race. But first kill them. Your rhetoric resembles that of so many other historic fascists, it's incredible that you're completely incapable of noticing the overlap. Edit: just noticed Elwood is mocking people getting massacred... so this is it then, huh. We're devolving real fast around here. I know a few people who need reeducation, and it's not the Palestinians. It's the people cheering on Israel. I really think it's pointless to talk to you. Nazis getting reeducated by allied occupation suddenly is equivalent to . nazis gassing minorities.. UN leadership in NY struggeling to pull out their damn troops from a warzone despite several warnings becomes "Mocking people who get massacred" I think you are a damn troll playing tankie roll play game on forums. A pretty incredible take given that the UN has had a huge hand in Netenyahu's arrest warrant, and now they suddenly start getting slaughtered by Israel. Do you respect the right of the UN to defend itself from these attacks? So the UN failed to do all the things they had a mandate to in Lebanon. And instead of removing their troops from a war zone.. like every other organisation did.. they double down on being useless by using the hamas tactics: Strap a "victim" to the compounds roof and claim "Massacre!!!!" if your compound gets hit. UN should have demilitarized the border region, should have taken away hezbollahs ability to strike israel.. and they failed. Which is okay given the circumstances. But like any other NGO, UN's main struggle is to keep up their public image for funding. Right now they have a court - whose decisions don't matter. And they have troops that aren't robust. The Security Council is always blocking itself. To me they can close up everything and just keep the food programme.
I’m not sure Israel would enjoy it too much if the UN had some teeth.
What ‘Hamas tactics’ are you referring to?
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What ‘Hamas tactics’ are you referring to?
Getting non-targets into close proximity of targets and then wail about how the destruction of launchpads somehow killed 53 children..just because you hid the ammo under the kindergarten.
"All I wanted to do is kill some jews, and now my kids are dead! Help Help I am being opressed"
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Norway28852 Posts
Did the UN hide ammo under a kindergarten? Is the UN trying to kill jews? What the fuck are you babbling about?
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On the contrary, the problem here is that Israel thinks they have a God given right to do whatever they want wherever they want.
How the fuck do they think for a single second that they have the right to tell UN troops in Lebanon what to do lol???
Israel needs to learn its place, stop acting as a rogue state and go back home. Now.
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On October 14 2024 16:35 KT_Elwood wrote:Getting non-targets into close proximity of targets and then wail about how the destruction of launchpads somehow killed 53 children..just because you hid the ammo under the kindergarten. "All I wanted to do is kill some jews, and now my kids are dead! Help Help I am being opressed"
As much as this is infuriating to read, this is the logic behind every "human shield" argument out there. It's never supposed to make you feel bad for Palestinians because they're used as human shields, it's always supposed to make you feel less bad about Palestinians being killed because they're used as human shields. The real component of the argument is the dehumanization, not the post hoc justification for it.
It's the same mechanism that makes it so that once in a while we see an Israeli official appear on TV and say that Iran is pure evil because it's firing hundreds of missiles into civilian areas. It's not hypocrisy, it's a failure to recognize the humanity of certain people.
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It's relative safe to say that lebanon is used by hezbollah to launch rockets. The israeli ground advance has found tunnels hideouts and stashes that point to the preperations of a border incursion equivalent of the attacks from gaza one year ago.
Of all the "we needed to attack before they do" reasons to go to war, at the moment I think israel has the most credible position.
The UN losing "face" over this is the smallest price to pay.
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On October 14 2024 17:38 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2024 16:35 KT_Elwood wrote:What ‘Hamas tactics’ are you referring to? Getting non-targets into close proximity of targets and then wail about how the destruction of launchpads somehow killed 53 children..just because you hid the ammo under the kindergarten. "All I wanted to do is kill some jews, and now my kids are dead! Help Help I am being opressed" As much as this is infuriating to read, this is the logic behind every "human shield" argument out there. It's never supposed to make you feel bad for Palestinians because they're used as human shields, it's always supposed to make you feel less bad about Palestinians being killed because they're used as human shields. The real component of the argument is the dehumanization, not the post hoc justification for it. It's the same mechanism that makes it so that once in a while we see an Israeli official appear on TV and say that Iran is pure evil because it's firing hundreds of missiles into civilian areas. It's not hypocrisy, it's a failure to recognize the humanity of certain people.
I am not de-humanizing the meatshields!
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On October 13 2024 23:33 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2024 20:20 KT_Elwood wrote:On October 11 2024 20:37 Magic Powers wrote:On October 11 2024 17:15 KT_Elwood wrote:
Totally agree. Israel shall anhihilate hamas and hezbollah and then offer occupation and reeducation and a fair chance.
But for now, it's total war and nobody stops it. Gaza spent almost 20 years digging tunnels and making rockets from waterpipes.
Israel has iron dome and GBUs.
Reeducate the Untermenschen, they need saving from the master race. But first kill them. Your rhetoric resembles that of so many other historic fascists, it's incredible that you're completely incapable of noticing the overlap. Edit: just noticed Elwood is mocking people getting massacred... so this is it then, huh. We're devolving real fast around here. I know a few people who need reeducation, and it's not the Palestinians. It's the people cheering on Israel. I really think it's pointless to talk to you. Nazis getting reeducated by allied occupation suddenly is equivalent to . nazis gassing minorities.. UN leadership in NY struggeling to pull out their damn troops from a warzone despite several warnings becomes "Mocking people who get massacred" I think you are a damn troll playing tankie roll play game on forums. A pretty incredible take given that the UN has had a huge hand in Netenyahu's arrest warrant, and now they suddenly start getting slaughtered by Israel. Do you respect the right of the UN to defend itself from these attacks?
You guys will never stop with the artful cynicism and sarcasm, right?
Discussing with you guys seems more and more impossible. Nothing much to gain recently, except cringy one-liners.
Except pmp10 who laid out a perfectly reasonable case as to why there was starvation happening in the north of Gaza during November (in my opinion targeted at Hamas, while still having disastrous consequences for the population... hence I disagree if they would made a case for targeted starvation of the civilians, which I am not sure they did), none of you actually can be reasoned with.
Insults, fallacies, people who act like little kids when arguments cannot be refuted. This whole thread is absurd... I've never come across an Israeli-Palestine-thread where people engage in such a superficial manner. Truly astonishing.
UN-Issue
Has it ever occurred to any of you, that UN has a notably high presence in Gaza, specifically through UNRWA?
That the density of UN facilities in this densely populated area in comparison to other conflict zones is highly concentrated?
That because of Gaza's densely populated urban environment, it is extremely challenging for military operations to be conducted without affecting civilian and international infrastructure? Even more so when you have terrorists operating in close proximity to and/or often directly from these exact civilian infrastructures?
That the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of not the most closely watched and reported conflict in the world?
That UN compounds in Afghanistan or Syria are further removed from the central of conflict?
There are so many non-intentional factors than can play a role here, but no, let's simply swipe over all of them, instead of going into a discussion, because simply blaming Israel is so much easier, right?
On October 14 2024 17:38 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2024 16:35 KT_Elwood wrote:What ‘Hamas tactics’ are you referring to? Getting non-targets into close proximity of targets and then wail about how the destruction of launchpads somehow killed 53 children..just because you hid the ammo under the kindergarten. "All I wanted to do is kill some jews, and now my kids are dead! Help Help I am being opressed" As much as this is infuriating to read, this is the logic behind every "human shield" argument out there. It's never supposed to make you feel bad for Palestinians because they're used as human shields, it's always supposed to make you feel less bad about Palestinians being killed because they're used as human shields. The real component of the argument is the dehumanization, not the post hoc justification for it. It's the same mechanism that makes it so that once in a while we see an Israeli official appear on TV and say that Iran is pure evil because it's firing hundreds of missiles into civilian areas. It's not hypocrisy, it's a failure to recognize the humanity of certain people.
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It's easy to blame murderers for murder, yes. We do that with Hamas and Hezbollah, I don't see why Israel should be treated any different.
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On October 14 2024 17:58 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2024 23:33 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 13 2024 20:20 KT_Elwood wrote:On October 11 2024 20:37 Magic Powers wrote:On October 11 2024 17:15 KT_Elwood wrote:
Totally agree. Israel shall anhihilate hamas and hezbollah and then offer occupation and reeducation and a fair chance.
But for now, it's total war and nobody stops it. Gaza spent almost 20 years digging tunnels and making rockets from waterpipes.
Israel has iron dome and GBUs.
Reeducate the Untermenschen, they need saving from the master race. But first kill them. Your rhetoric resembles that of so many other historic fascists, it's incredible that you're completely incapable of noticing the overlap. Edit: just noticed Elwood is mocking people getting massacred... so this is it then, huh. We're devolving real fast around here. I know a few people who need reeducation, and it's not the Palestinians. It's the people cheering on Israel. I really think it's pointless to talk to you. Nazis getting reeducated by allied occupation suddenly is equivalent to . nazis gassing minorities.. UN leadership in NY struggeling to pull out their damn troops from a warzone despite several warnings becomes "Mocking people who get massacred" I think you are a damn troll playing tankie roll play game on forums. A pretty incredible take given that the UN has had a huge hand in Netenyahu's arrest warrant, and now they suddenly start getting slaughtered by Israel. Do you respect the right of the UN to defend itself from these attacks? You guys will never stop with the artful cynicism and sarcasm, right? Discussing with you guys seems more and more impossible. Nothing much to gain recently, except cringy one-liners. Except pmp10 who laid out a perfectly reasonable case as to why there was starvation happening in the north of Gaza during November (in my opinion targeted at Hamas, while still having disastrous consequences for the population... hence I disagree if they would made a case for targeted starvation of the civilians, which I am not sure they did), none of you actually can be reasoned with. Insults, fallacies, people who act like little kids when arguments cannot be refuted. This whole thread is absurd... I've never come across an Israeli-Palestine-thread where people engage in such a superficial manner. Truly astonishing. UN-IssueHas it ever occurred to any of you, that UN has a notably high presence in Gaza, specifically through UNRWA? That the density of UN facilities in this densely populated area in comparison to other conflict zones is highly concentrated? That because of Gaza's densely populated urban environment, it is extremely challenging for military operations to be conducted without affecting civilian and international infrastructure? Even more so when you have terrorists operating in close proximity to and/or often directly from these exact civilian infrastructures? That the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of not the most closely watched and reported conflict in the world? That UN compounds in Afghanistan or Syria are further removed from the central of conflict? There are so many non-intentional factors than can play a role here, but no, let's simply swipe over all of them, instead of going into a discussion, because simply blaming Israel is so much easier, right?
Its weird because on the face of it this looks like a reply to my post, but none of the content seems related to what I said in that post.
I was talking about Israel deliberately attacking UN stations and killing UN peacekeepers in Lebanon.
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On October 14 2024 18:03 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2024 17:58 PremoBeats wrote:On October 13 2024 23:33 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 13 2024 20:20 KT_Elwood wrote:On October 11 2024 20:37 Magic Powers wrote:On October 11 2024 17:15 KT_Elwood wrote:
Totally agree. Israel shall anhihilate hamas and hezbollah and then offer occupation and reeducation and a fair chance.
But for now, it's total war and nobody stops it. Gaza spent almost 20 years digging tunnels and making rockets from waterpipes.
Israel has iron dome and GBUs.
Reeducate the Untermenschen, they need saving from the master race. But first kill them. Your rhetoric resembles that of so many other historic fascists, it's incredible that you're completely incapable of noticing the overlap. Edit: just noticed Elwood is mocking people getting massacred... so this is it then, huh. We're devolving real fast around here. I know a few people who need reeducation, and it's not the Palestinians. It's the people cheering on Israel. I really think it's pointless to talk to you. Nazis getting reeducated by allied occupation suddenly is equivalent to . nazis gassing minorities.. UN leadership in NY struggeling to pull out their damn troops from a warzone despite several warnings becomes "Mocking people who get massacred" I think you are a damn troll playing tankie roll play game on forums. A pretty incredible take given that the UN has had a huge hand in Netenyahu's arrest warrant, and now they suddenly start getting slaughtered by Israel. Do you respect the right of the UN to defend itself from these attacks? You guys will never stop with the artful cynicism and sarcasm, right? Discussing with you guys seems more and more impossible. Nothing much to gain recently, except cringy one-liners. Except pmp10 who laid out a perfectly reasonable case as to why there was starvation happening in the north of Gaza during November (in my opinion targeted at Hamas, while still having disastrous consequences for the population... hence I disagree if they would made a case for targeted starvation of the civilians, which I am not sure they did), none of you actually can be reasoned with. Insults, fallacies, people who act like little kids when arguments cannot be refuted. This whole thread is absurd... I've never come across an Israeli-Palestine-thread where people engage in such a superficial manner. Truly astonishing. UN-IssueHas it ever occurred to any of you, that UN has a notably high presence in Gaza, specifically through UNRWA? That the density of UN facilities in this densely populated area in comparison to other conflict zones is highly concentrated? That because of Gaza's densely populated urban environment, it is extremely challenging for military operations to be conducted without affecting civilian and international infrastructure? Even more so when you have terrorists operating in close proximity to and/or often directly from these exact civilian infrastructures? That the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of not the most closely watched and reported conflict in the world? That UN compounds in Afghanistan or Syria are further removed from the central of conflict? There are so many non-intentional factors than can play a role here, but no, let's simply swipe over all of them, instead of going into a discussion, because simply blaming Israel is so much easier, right? Its weird because on the face of it this looks like a reply to my post, but none of the content seems related to what I said in that post. I was talking about Israel deliberately attacking UN stations and killing UN peacekeepers in Lebanon.
Yes, and I am saying it is BS because of the non-intentional factors I laid out. Or even mistaking them for terrorists might happen.
But what is your case? How many more peacekeepers died in relation to other conflict zones?
On October 14 2024 17:59 Salazarz wrote:
It's easy to blame murderers for murder, yes. We do that with Hamas and Hezbollah, I don't see why Israel should be treated any different.
Read the distinction I typed out for Nebuchad... seriously, it is getting harder and harder to take you guys seriously.
On October 14 2024 17:38 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2024 16:35 KT_Elwood wrote:What ‘Hamas tactics’ are you referring to? Getting non-targets into close proximity of targets and then wail about how the destruction of launchpads somehow killed 53 children..just because you hid the ammo under the kindergarten. "All I wanted to do is kill some jews, and now my kids are dead! Help Help I am being opressed" As much as this is infuriating to read, this is the logic behind every "human shield" argument out there. It's never supposed to make you feel bad for Palestinians because they're used as human shields, it's always supposed to make you feel less bad about Palestinians being killed because they're used as human shields. The real component of the argument is the dehumanization, not the post hoc justification for it. It's the same mechanism that makes it so that once in a while we see an Israeli official appear on TV and say that Iran is pure evil because it's firing hundreds of missiles into civilian areas. It's not hypocrisy, it's a failure to recognize the humanity of certain people.
Are you truly blinded by your bias so much, that you seriously cannot see the difference between the deliberate targeting of civilian areas and the unintentional killings of civilians?
Seriously, it is the same fallacious nonsense, that you always spout:
But let's once again break down the fallacies and implications.
You suggest that the "human shield" argument is inherently about dehumanization rather than being a factual explanation or a justification. There are several points to consider:
False Dichotomy: You present a binary choice - either the argument about human shields is a post-hoc justification or it’s a tool of dehumanization. However, it’s possible that the "human shield" argument is not purely one or the other. There can be a middle ground or even third options where such arguments are employed to explain tragic outcomes without excusing them or dehumanizing the victims. Failing to recognize this nuance simplifies a complex issue.
Ad Hominem and Motive Fallacy: You seem to imply that anyone making the "human shield" argument is dehumanizing Palestinians by default, attributing a moral flaw or bad faith to the argument. This distracts from engaging with the actual issue of whether or not human shields are being used. Accusing someone of dehumanization without addressing the core of the argument shifts the focus from the facts to the supposed intentions of the arguer.
Straw Man: You misrepresent the argument by portraying it as being about dehumanization rather than security concerns or military tactics. Many people making this argument are trying to explain why certain strikes may result in civilian casualties rather than excusing those casualties or minimizing the humanity of the victims. You oversimplify and distort this explanation.
From an analytical perspective, there’s a clear distinction between intentional targeting of civilians (as carried out by groups like Hamas or Iran) and unintentional civilian casualties resulting from military strikes aimed at legitimate targets that are unfortunately close to civilian areas. International law also differentiates between these actions: deliberate targeting of civilians is a war crime, while civilian casualties that occur as "collateral damage" (as tragic as they are) during attacks on military objectives may not necessarily be a violation, depending on the proportionality and necessity of the strike.
There even is a clear moral and legal difference between intentional and unintentional targeting, which is well-supported by international law. The laws of war (International Humanitarian Law) make distinctions between:
Intentional Targeting: Hamas’ rocket attacks and Iran’s support for groups that launch indiscriminate missile strikes are acts of deliberate targeting of civilian populations. These actions are meant to harm civilians, terrorize, and are designed to maximize fear and loss of life.
Unintentional Casualties: On the other hand, Israel argues that its strikes are aimed at military targets (such as rocket launchers, command centers, etc.), but in some cases, these targets are located in civilian areas. If civilians are killed during these strikes, it is a tragedy but not the same as intentionally aiming to kill civilians. The use of human shields by groups like Hamas - embedding weapons in civilian structures or near schools - complicates military operations. The use of such tactics shifts responsibility for these deaths, to some degree, onto those who use civilians as a shield.
You imply that the discussion of human shields is inherently about dehumanizing Palestinians. However, this overlooks the fact that these discussions often focus on how militant groups like Hamas are endangering Palestinian civilians by placing them in harm’s way. It is possible to critique Hamas’ tactics without dehumanizing the people affected by these tactics. In fact, blaming groups like Hamas for using human shields is often seen as a way to call out those who are victimizing their own civilian population by exposing them to military retaliation, exactly the opposite of what your nonsensical texts suggests.
The perspective I laid out avoids oversimplification and acknowledges the complexities of modern warfare, especially in urban environments like Gaza. You intentional blur this distinction by implying that even unintentional casualties are always the result of dehumanization, which is not necessarily - and looking at the civilian casualty rate, most likely not - accurate.
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Northern Ireland27188 Posts
I don’t really find the idea that these are mistakes and Israel doesn’t know where various peacekeeping forces are stationed particularly credible.
Other instances of collateral damage perhaps yes, but between Israeli-UN communication channels, or indeed Israel’s much-vaunted (fairly) intelligence services the idea that they don’t have a solid grasp on where peacekeepers or stationed seems highly implausible to me.
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On October 14 2024 18:38 WombaT wrote:
I don’t really find the idea that these are mistakes and Israel doesn’t know where various peacekeeping forces are stationed particularly credible.
Other instances of collateral damage perhaps yes, but between Israeli-UN communication channels, or indeed Israel’s much-vaunted (fairly) intelligence services the idea that they don’t have a solid grasp on where peacekeepers or stationed seems highly implausible to me.
Again:
1. It can be misfires - as I laid out: The highly densely populated area of Gaza makes accidental targeting much more likely
2. It can be identified terrorists that exploited humanitarian covers
3. It can be terrorist tunnels or weapon stocks beneath/in these UN schools, camps, etc.
4. That much more reports of such things surface, as this conflict is much more watched than most if not any other conflict
5. That UN compounds in other countries are much more removed from the conflict.
To see, if it was truly an issue I'd ask myself: What is the comparison to other conflicts?
If the numbers are lower or equal to other conflicts, the implication would be that nothing extraordinary is happening.
If the numbers are higher, one has to dig deeper. A certain threshold would be fine in my opinion, because of the special circumstances (extreme density and human shield tactics) of Gaza.
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On October 14 2024 18:38 WombaT wrote:
I don’t really find the idea that these are mistakes and Israel doesn’t know where various peacekeeping forces are stationed particularly credible.
Other instances of collateral damage perhaps yes, but between Israeli-UN communication channels, or indeed Israel’s much-vaunted (fairly) intelligence services the idea that they don’t have a solid grasp on where peacekeepers or stationed seems highly implausible to me.
1) Israel is capable of precisely tracking specific members of Hezbollah for years and killing them at a specific moment in time with great precision.
2) Israel is incapable of doing the same with UN peacekeeping forces.
As I always say, two things can be true at the same time /s
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The tanks that rolled into a UN base were just lost, you see. Once they recognized their mistake, they went home. Not trying to intimidate or bully anyone, just a honest mistake, you see. Also, there were Hezbollah tunnels under the base. And human shields. And anyway, Israel told them all to leave the area so it's their own fault if anyone did get hit. Why do you all love terrorists so much, you blind antisemites? Impossible to have a serious conversation here.
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On October 14 2024 19:03 Salazarz wrote:
The tanks that rolled into a UN base were just lost, you see. Once they recognized their mistake, they went home. Not trying to intimidate or bully anyone, just a honest mistake, you see. Also, there were Hezbollah tunnels under the base. And human shields. And anyway, Israel told them all to leave the area so it's their own fault if anyone did get hit. Why do you all love terrorists so much, you blind antisemites?
As I said... only artful cynicism and sarcasm can be gained from you. Or do you want to seriously discuss this specific incident?
It is also interesting to observe how none of you are ready to speak about potential solutions... it is only anti-Israel, anti-Israel, anti-Israel over and over and over.
Like seriously... we reached an agreement that Gazans, to not fall prey to terrorist propaganda and calls to martyrdom, need a certain level of prosperity, infrastructure and something to lose.
Yet, once I inquired further, how you would get rid of Hamas, which stands in stark contrast to these things, as the events following 2007 perfectly displayed, you simply refuse any more discussion, as if the thought alone of getting rid of Hamas is bad.
This is such a perfect example of most of my encounters here. Either it is fallacies, insults, ignoring data or going silent.
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On October 14 2024 19:03 Salazarz wrote:
The tanks that rolled into a UN base were just lost, you see. Once they recognized their mistake, they went home. Not trying to intimidate or bully anyone, just a honest mistake, you see. Also, there were Hezbollah tunnels under the base. And human shields. And anyway, Israel told them all to leave the area so it's their own fault if anyone did get hit. Why do you all love terrorists so much, you blind antisemites? Impossible to have a serious conversation here.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cwylekwngz8o
The UN peacekeeping force in southern Lebanon says Israeli tanks forced their way into one of its positions early on Sunday morning.
In a statement, the UN Interim Force in Lebanon (Unifil) said two Israel Defense Forces (IDF) tanks destroyed the main gate of a post in Ramyah, near the Israeli border, and "forcibly entered the position" to request it turn out its lights.
About two hours later, it said rounds were fired nearby that saw smoke enter the camp, causing 15 peacekeepers to suffer skin irritations and gastrointestinal reactions.
The IDF offered a different version of events, saying it had encroached on a Unifil position to evacuate soldiers who had been wounded by an anti-tank missile.
It said two soldiers had been "seriously injured" in the attack, with others suffering lesser degrees of injury.
"For the sake of evacuating the wounded, two tanks drove backwards, in a place where they could not advance otherwise in light of the threat of shooting, a few metres towards the Unifil position," the IDF said.
It added that during the incident, a smoke screen was fired to aid the evacuation - and that it had "maintained continuous contact" with Unifil, stressing there was "no threat to the Unifil force from IDF activities".
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I reckon the IDF is probably lying, but by the time it becomes apparent they were, everybody will have moved on.
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On October 14 2024 19:20 Nebuchad wrote:
I reckon the IDF is probably lying, but by the time it becomes apparent they were, everybody will have moved on.
What a surprise! You think that the IDF is lying?
But in this case it absolutely seems plausible: They orchestrated the Hezbollah attack on their tanks with a mule which they placed in Hezbollah, sacrificed a couple of soldiers to be able to harass the UN and make them leave. Completely sound reasoning!
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EPT
