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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. |
On October 14 2024 19:29 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2024 19:20 Nebuchad wrote:
I reckon the IDF is probably lying, but by the time it becomes apparent they were, everybody will have moved on. What a surprise! You think that the IDF is lying? But in this case it absolutely seems plausible: They orchestrated the Hezbollah attack on their tanks with a mule which they placed in Hezbollah, sacrificed a couple of soldiers to be able to harass the UN and make them leave. Completely sound reasoning!
'Israel is lying' is actually a really good default position, the same as 'Hamas is lying'.
The fact that both have been repeatedly caught lying about the conflict means that believing one side or the other is just showing bias at this point.
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On October 14 2024 19:20 Nebuchad wrote:
I reckon the IDF is probably lying, but by the time it becomes apparent they were, everybody will have moved on.
Wouldn't be the first time or the last time they lied. It's well known that IDF troops have lied about many of their encounters. And that's only the known instances.
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On October 14 2024 19:10 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2024 19:03 Salazarz wrote:
The tanks that rolled into a UN base were just lost, you see. Once they recognized their mistake, they went home. Not trying to intimidate or bully anyone, just a honest mistake, you see. Also, there were Hezbollah tunnels under the base. And human shields. And anyway, Israel told them all to leave the area so it's their own fault if anyone did get hit. Why do you all love terrorists so much, you blind antisemites? As I said... only artful cynicism and sarcasm can be gained from you. Or do you want to seriously discuss this specific incident? It is also interesting to observe how none of you are ready to speak about potential solutions... it is only anti-Israel, anti-Israel, anti-Israel over and over and over. Like seriously... we reached an agreement that Gazans, to not fall prey to terrorist propaganda and calls to martyrdom, need a certain level of prosperity, infrastructure and something to lose. Yet, once I inquired further, how you would get rid of Hamas, which stands in stark contrast to these things, as the events following 2007 perfectly displayed, you simply refuse any more discussion, as if the thought alone of getting rid of Hamas is bad. This is such a perfect example of most of my encounters here. Either it is fallacies, insults, ignoring data or going silent.
I've made it pretty clear where I stand on potential solutions: end the ethnic cleansing, end colonization, end mass murder, then work from there. If you think that's 'anti-Israel', I honestly don't give a shit. You keep complaining about people 'ignoring data' yet you ignore even the most concrete evidence that does not suit your position so there's really no point 'discussing' anything with you.
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tbh i quite like the fact that premo described my sarcasm as artful, I'm just a little miffed as to why my guerrilla posting is such a bug bear.
Most of what I post is more to prompt other people to discuss things rather than getting involved in pages and pages of walls of text myself.
The rather personal accusations being thrown around at everyone are a bit tiresome though.
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On October 14 2024 19:33 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2024 19:29 PremoBeats wrote:On October 14 2024 19:20 Nebuchad wrote:
I reckon the IDF is probably lying, but by the time it becomes apparent they were, everybody will have moved on. What a surprise! You think that the IDF is lying? But in this case it absolutely seems plausible: They orchestrated the Hezbollah attack on their tanks with a mule which they placed in Hezbollah, sacrificed a couple of soldiers to be able to harass the UN and make them leave. Completely sound reasoning! 'Israel is lying' is actually a really good default position, the same as 'Hamas is lying'. The fact that both have been repeatedly caught lying about the conflict means that believing one side or the other is just showing bias at this point.
For it to be a good default position, you would need to prove that they lied more often than they told the truths.
The reasoning gets worse and worse at this point. You guys made it perfectly clear that you are only here to shit on Israel. Which is fine, I guess. I am simply here to point out the illogical ways of thinking and denials of actual data once they occur (which happens quite often).
to your second text: You and I engaged in a short wall of text, don't you remember? Which started quite nice iirc. But somewhere the cynicism started to kick in and one-liners were the new MO.
On October 14 2024 19:53 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2024 19:10 PremoBeats wrote:On October 14 2024 19:03 Salazarz wrote:
The tanks that rolled into a UN base were just lost, you see. Once they recognized their mistake, they went home. Not trying to intimidate or bully anyone, just a honest mistake, you see. Also, there were Hezbollah tunnels under the base. And human shields. And anyway, Israel told them all to leave the area so it's their own fault if anyone did get hit. Why do you all love terrorists so much, you blind antisemites? As I said... only artful cynicism and sarcasm can be gained from you. Or do you want to seriously discuss this specific incident? It is also interesting to observe how none of you are ready to speak about potential solutions... it is only anti-Israel, anti-Israel, anti-Israel over and over and over. Like seriously... we reached an agreement that Gazans, to not fall prey to terrorist propaganda and calls to martyrdom, need a certain level of prosperity, infrastructure and something to lose. Yet, once I inquired further, how you would get rid of Hamas, which stands in stark contrast to these things, as the events following 2007 perfectly displayed, you simply refuse any more discussion, as if the thought alone of getting rid of Hamas is bad. This is such a perfect example of most of my encounters here. Either it is fallacies, insults, ignoring data or going silent. I've made it pretty clear where I stand on potential solutions: end the ethnic cleansing, end colonization, end mass murder, then work from there. If you think that's 'anti-Israel', I honestly don't give a shit. You keep complaining about people 'ignoring data' yet you ignore even the most concrete evidence that does not suit your position so there's really no point 'discussing' anything with you.
So end some things that aren't actually happening, put all the work on Israel and ignore that Hamas still will be in charge, hell bent on eradicating Israel as it is present in their charter. So how would you prevent Hamas from starting all over like 2007 in case Israel withdraws tomorrow?
And would you simply give up on the hostages?
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Which of the things I've listed aren't happening?
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On October 14 2024 20:06 Salazarz wrote:
Which of the things I've listed aren't happening?
Wouldn't it be nice if you answered the questions that I posed several times now first?
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On October 14 2024 20:02 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2024 19:33 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 14 2024 19:29 PremoBeats wrote:On October 14 2024 19:20 Nebuchad wrote:
I reckon the IDF is probably lying, but by the time it becomes apparent they were, everybody will have moved on. What a surprise! You think that the IDF is lying? But in this case it absolutely seems plausible: They orchestrated the Hezbollah attack on their tanks with a mule which they placed in Hezbollah, sacrificed a couple of soldiers to be able to harass the UN and make them leave. Completely sound reasoning! 'Israel is lying' is actually a really good default position, the same as 'Hamas is lying'. The fact that both have been repeatedly caught lying about the conflict means that believing one side or the other is just showing bias at this point. For it to be a good default position, you would need to prove that they lied more often than they told the truths. The reasoning gets worse and worse at this point. You guys made it perfectly clear that you are only here to shit on Israel. Which is fine, I guess. I am simply here to point out the illogical ways of thinking and denials of actual data once they occur (which happens quite often). to your second text: You and I engaged in a short wall of text, don't you remember? Which started quite nice iirc. But somewhere the cynicism started to kick in and one-liners were the new MO.
Yes but I don't have the energy these days to keep it up.
I've been cynical all along, especially when it comes to Israel. That's what happens when over the years you see constant dehumanization of Palestinians, weak excuses for outright murder, ethnic cleansing being portrayed as necessary rather than a choice etc. etc.
The same way I don't listen to what Hamas are saying, and I don't listen to what Trump is saying, I won't listen to the propaganda coming from Israel.
Sometimes a source will prove itself so unreliable as to actually damage any hope of conversation.
On the other side of this, the UN are a pretty good source when it comes to the conflict.
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On October 14 2024 20:17 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2024 20:06 Salazarz wrote:
Which of the things I've listed aren't happening? Wouldn't it be nice if you answered the questions that I posed several times now first?
No it wouldn't, because if you're going to pretend the things I'm talking about aren't real then there's no reason to engage with you in good faith.
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On October 14 2024 20:00 Jockmcplop wrote:
tbh i quite like the fact that premo described my sarcasm as artful, I'm just a little miffed as to why my guerrilla posting is such a bug bear.
Most of what I post is more to prompt other people to discuss things rather than getting involved in pages and pages of walls of text myself.
The rather personal accusations being thrown around at everyone are a bit tiresome though.
There is a funny element to him in that he's clearly there for a specific purpose and he keeps complaining that it's very annoying to do as if he were forced to do it somehow.
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It's a war. Both sides will lie, and both sides will be suggestive, and both sides will ommit parts of their knowledge which doesn't benefit their narrative.
Right now it's not in question that iran and iranian proxies are trying to kill jews for being jews - and Israel is targeting their leaders, troops, posts, hideouts and stashes in gaza and lebanon.
If Hezbollah would agree of moving out of the proposed demilitarized zone.. and stop sending rockets.. maybe there would be peace.
For Gaza I only see occupation and reeducation. Cut all ties to iranian hate for a decade and offer prosperity in israel.
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Ignoring all the other issues with this (of which there are many), Israel isn't willing to 'properly' occupy Gaza as long as there are Palestinian people living there, so that clearly isn't a solution. No idea why this keeps being repeated by some posters here.
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On October 14 2024 20:22 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2024 20:02 PremoBeats wrote:On October 14 2024 19:33 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 14 2024 19:29 PremoBeats wrote:On October 14 2024 19:20 Nebuchad wrote:
I reckon the IDF is probably lying, but by the time it becomes apparent they were, everybody will have moved on. What a surprise! You think that the IDF is lying? But in this case it absolutely seems plausible: They orchestrated the Hezbollah attack on their tanks with a mule which they placed in Hezbollah, sacrificed a couple of soldiers to be able to harass the UN and make them leave. Completely sound reasoning! 'Israel is lying' is actually a really good default position, the same as 'Hamas is lying'. The fact that both have been repeatedly caught lying about the conflict means that believing one side or the other is just showing bias at this point. For it to be a good default position, you would need to prove that they lied more often than they told the truths. The reasoning gets worse and worse at this point. You guys made it perfectly clear that you are only here to shit on Israel. Which is fine, I guess. I am simply here to point out the illogical ways of thinking and denials of actual data once they occur (which happens quite often). to your second text: You and I engaged in a short wall of text, don't you remember? Which started quite nice iirc. But somewhere the cynicism started to kick in and one-liners were the new MO. Yes but I don't have the energy these days to keep it up. I've been cynical all along, especially when it comes to Israel. That's what happens when over the years you see constant dehumanization of Palestinians, weak excuses for outright murder, ethnic cleansing being portrayed as necessary rather than a choice etc. etc. The same way I don't listen to what Hamas are saying, and I don't listen to what Trump is saying, I won't listen to the propaganda coming from Israel. Sometimes a source will prove itself so unreliable as to actually damage any hope of conversation. On the other side of this, the UN are a pretty good source when it comes to the conflict.
You are perfectly fine to focus on dozens of singular incidents that paint a certain picture, but are not representative of the overall conflict or MO of a certain side.
And if you think that the UN with its in-built majority against Israel and especially UNRWA are good sources, that is ok too. But I'd rather look at the grand scheme and compare data from this conflict to similar ones.
Hence, I have no issues to point out that Hamas is deliberately targeting civilians as this is well-documented by neutral sources as well as Hamas themselves, who broadcasted their barbarism live when it happened, while denying the same intention for Israel, as the numbers do not indicate it.
And while I never claimed that Israel's side never did anything wrong (quite contrary, I denounced and condemned all of the proven war crimes that happened) as I don't believe it, people seem to forget that this is a war. And horrible things simply happen in wars. A lot.
On October 14 2024 20:25 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2024 20:17 PremoBeats wrote:On October 14 2024 20:06 Salazarz wrote:
Which of the things I've listed aren't happening? Wouldn't it be nice if you answered the questions that I posed several times now first? No it wouldn't, because if you're going to pretend the things I'm talking about aren't real then there's no reason to engage with you in good faith.
The side that is saying that a genocide or deliberate starvation targeted at the Gazan population is happening are not pretending that things that do not happen are actually happening? Is that not a sign of bad faith?
Ethnic cleansing. I believe it is happening, once the hostages have been freed and the Israelis are actually forcing the Gazans out of Palestine.
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No food has entered northern Gaza since the start of October, putting 1 million people at risk of going hungry, the World Food Programme told CNN on Friday.
In August, approximately 700 hundred aid trucks entered northern Gaza. In September, only 400 aid trucks entered, after commercial operations ceased at the Allenby Crossing on the border between the occupied West Bank and Jordan, the WFP added. No food trucks have entered northern Gaza in October, the WFP told CNN.
On Wednesday, the WFP said in a report that the aid entering the strip has plummeted to its lowest level in months, forcing the organization to stop the distribution of food parcels in October.
“Hunger remains rampant and the threat of famine persists,” WFP added. “If the flow of assistance does not resume, one million vulnerable people will be deprived on this lifeline.”
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/11/middleeast/food-northern-gaza-starvation-un-intl
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is examining a plan to seal off humanitarian aid to northern Gaza in an attempt to starve out Hamas militants, a plan that, if implemented, could trap without food or water hundreds of thousands of Palestinians unwilling or unable to leave their homes.
Israel has issued many evacuation orders for the north throughout the yearlong war, the most recent of which was Sunday. The plan proposed to Netanyahu and the Israeli parliament by a group of retired generals would escalate the pressure, giving Palestinians a week to leave the northern third of the Gaza Strip, including Gaza City, before declaring it a closed military zone.
Those who remain would be considered combatants — meaning military regulations would allow troops to kill them — and denied food, water, medicine and fuel, according to a copy of the plan given to The Associated Press by its chief architect, who says the plan is the only way to break Hamas in the north and pressure it to release the remaining hostages.
https://apnews.com/article/hamas-israel-generals-plan-eiland-gaza-219d7eb9a3050e281ccc032d5a56263c
Generic message to newspapers: stop firing your proofreaders, who the fuck writes 700 hundred aid trucks
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On October 14 2024 21:26 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote + No food has entered northern Gaza since the start of October, putting 1 million people at risk of going hungry, the World Food Programme told CNN on Friday.
In August, approximately 700 hundred aid trucks entered northern Gaza. In September, only 400 aid trucks entered, after commercial operations ceased at the Allenby Crossing on the border between the occupied West Bank and Jordan, the WFP added. No food trucks have entered northern Gaza in October, the WFP told CNN.
On Wednesday, the WFP said in a report that the aid entering the strip has plummeted to its lowest level in months, forcing the organization to stop the distribution of food parcels in October.
“Hunger remains rampant and the threat of famine persists,” WFP added. “If the flow of assistance does not resume, one million vulnerable people will be deprived on this lifeline.” https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/11/middleeast/food-northern-gaza-starvation-un-intlShow nested quote +Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is examining a plan to seal off humanitarian aid to northern Gaza in an attempt to starve out Hamas militants, a plan that, if implemented, could trap without food or water hundreds of thousands of Palestinians unwilling or unable to leave their homes.
Israel has issued many evacuation orders for the north throughout the yearlong war, the most recent of which was Sunday. The plan proposed to Netanyahu and the Israeli parliament by a group of retired generals would escalate the pressure, giving Palestinians a week to leave the northern third of the Gaza Strip, including Gaza City, before declaring it a closed military zone.
Those who remain would be considered combatants — meaning military regulations would allow troops to kill them — and denied food, water, medicine and fuel, according to a copy of the plan given to The Associated Press by its chief architect, who says the plan is the only way to break Hamas in the north and pressure it to release the remaining hostages. https://apnews.com/article/hamas-israel-generals-plan-eiland-gaza-219d7eb9a3050e281ccc032d5a56263cGeneric message to newspapers: stop firing your proofreaders, who the fuck writes 700 hundred aid trucks
You probably overlooked my last reply to this instance.
But neat to see that attributing motifs is also prevalent in the news you read. Perhaps that is the root of why you are doing it all the time too, who knows.
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On October 14 2024 21:30 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2024 21:26 Nebuchad wrote: No food has entered northern Gaza since the start of October, putting 1 million people at risk of going hungry, the World Food Programme told CNN on Friday.
In August, approximately 700 hundred aid trucks entered northern Gaza. In September, only 400 aid trucks entered, after commercial operations ceased at the Allenby Crossing on the border between the occupied West Bank and Jordan, the WFP added. No food trucks have entered northern Gaza in October, the WFP told CNN.
On Wednesday, the WFP said in a report that the aid entering the strip has plummeted to its lowest level in months, forcing the organization to stop the distribution of food parcels in October.
“Hunger remains rampant and the threat of famine persists,” WFP added. “If the flow of assistance does not resume, one million vulnerable people will be deprived on this lifeline.” https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/11/middleeast/food-northern-gaza-starvation-un-intlIsraeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is examining a plan to seal off humanitarian aid to northern Gaza in an attempt to starve out Hamas militants, a plan that, if implemented, could trap without food or water hundreds of thousands of Palestinians unwilling or unable to leave their homes.
Israel has issued many evacuation orders for the north throughout the yearlong war, the most recent of which was Sunday. The plan proposed to Netanyahu and the Israeli parliament by a group of retired generals would escalate the pressure, giving Palestinians a week to leave the northern third of the Gaza Strip, including Gaza City, before declaring it a closed military zone.
Those who remain would be considered combatants — meaning military regulations would allow troops to kill them — and denied food, water, medicine and fuel, according to a copy of the plan given to The Associated Press by its chief architect, who says the plan is the only way to break Hamas in the north and pressure it to release the remaining hostages. https://apnews.com/article/hamas-israel-generals-plan-eiland-gaza-219d7eb9a3050e281ccc032d5a56263cGeneric message to newspapers: stop firing your proofreaders, who the fuck writes 700 hundred aid trucks You probably overlooked my last reply to this instance. But neat to see that attributing motifs is also prevalent in the news you read. Perhaps that is the root of why you are doing it all the time too, who knows.
I'm more of a Majority Report type of guy myself, but yeah it's so crazy how CNN and AP are antisemitic like this.
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Northern Ireland27202 Posts
On October 14 2024 21:05 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2024 20:22 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 14 2024 20:02 PremoBeats wrote:On October 14 2024 19:33 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 14 2024 19:29 PremoBeats wrote:On October 14 2024 19:20 Nebuchad wrote:
I reckon the IDF is probably lying, but by the time it becomes apparent they were, everybody will have moved on. What a surprise! You think that the IDF is lying? But in this case it absolutely seems plausible: They orchestrated the Hezbollah attack on their tanks with a mule which they placed in Hezbollah, sacrificed a couple of soldiers to be able to harass the UN and make them leave. Completely sound reasoning! 'Israel is lying' is actually a really good default position, the same as 'Hamas is lying'. The fact that both have been repeatedly caught lying about the conflict means that believing one side or the other is just showing bias at this point. For it to be a good default position, you would need to prove that they lied more often than they told the truths. The reasoning gets worse and worse at this point. You guys made it perfectly clear that you are only here to shit on Israel. Which is fine, I guess. I am simply here to point out the illogical ways of thinking and denials of actual data once they occur (which happens quite often). to your second text: You and I engaged in a short wall of text, don't you remember? Which started quite nice iirc. But somewhere the cynicism started to kick in and one-liners were the new MO. Yes but I don't have the energy these days to keep it up. I've been cynical all along, especially when it comes to Israel. That's what happens when over the years you see constant dehumanization of Palestinians, weak excuses for outright murder, ethnic cleansing being portrayed as necessary rather than a choice etc. etc. The same way I don't listen to what Hamas are saying, and I don't listen to what Trump is saying, I won't listen to the propaganda coming from Israel. Sometimes a source will prove itself so unreliable as to actually damage any hope of conversation. On the other side of this, the UN are a pretty good source when it comes to the conflict. You are perfectly fine to focus on dozens of singular incidents that paint a certain picture, but are not representative of the overall conflict or MO of a certain side. And if you think that the UN with its in-built majority against Israel and especially UNRWA are good sources, that is ok too. But I'd rather look at the grand scheme and compare data from this conflict to similar ones. Hence, I have no issues to point out that Hamas is deliberately targeting civilians as this is well-documented by neutral sources as well as Hamas themselves, who broadcasted their barbarism live when it happened, while denying the same intention for Israel, as the numbers do not indicate it. And while I never claimed that Israel's side never did anything wrong (quite contrary, I denounced and condemned all of the proven war crimes that happened) as I don't believe it, people seem to forget that this is a war. And horrible things simply happen in wars. A lot. Show nested quote +On October 14 2024 20:25 Salazarz wrote:On October 14 2024 20:17 PremoBeats wrote:On October 14 2024 20:06 Salazarz wrote:
Which of the things I've listed aren't happening? Wouldn't it be nice if you answered the questions that I posed several times now first? No it wouldn't, because if you're going to pretend the things I'm talking about aren't real then there's no reason to engage with you in good faith. The side that is saying that a genocide or deliberate starvation targeted at the Gazan population is happening are not pretending that things that do not happen are actually happening? Is that not a sign of bad faith? Ethnic cleansing. I believe it is happening, once the hostages have been freed and the Israelis are actually forcing the Gazans out of Palestine.
How can you do this if you dismiss testimony and various sources of data out of hand?
That aside I don’t think there are too many comparable conflicts. Whether Israel’s numbers re civilian casualties are reasonable or not I’m not sure can be ascertained in this manner.
There are few conflicts I’m aware of with such a huge power disparity, level of military sophistication etc. Where it’s effectively shooting fish in a barrel in a pretty small geographic area if you so fancy it.
This isn’t to say that attempting a comparison is a fruitless exercise, I just don’t see that many conflicts that have these characteristics, to the degree we’re approaching apples and oranges territory.
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I was stupid enough to casually browse some news about the conflict today.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/10/14/israel-airstrike-gaza-hospital-tent-camp-fire/
Airstrike on a hospital, of course Israel says that was a terrorist command center and of course we should all believe them because really, why wouldn't we. And the civilians who got hit by the strike, well, they're just Hamas human shields, it's on the terrorists that they get hurt, right.
Meanwhile on the subject of human shields, more reports of IDF using random Gazan civilians as bait for boobytraps and the likes.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/14/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-military-human-shields.html
I'm sure someone will come up with an explanation as to why these aren't war crimes, though, and even if they were, it's just because of some bad apples who will no doubt be investigated and brought to justice any moment now. Besides, war is horrible, haven't you heard. It's the evil terrorists who started it that are to blame.
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Northern Ireland27202 Posts
On October 14 2024 22:00 Salazarz wrote:I was stupid enough to casually browse some news about the conflict today. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/10/14/israel-airstrike-gaza-hospital-tent-camp-fire/Airstrike on a hospital, of course Israel says that was a terrorist command center and of course we should all believe them because really, why wouldn't we. And the civilians who got hit by the strike, well, they're just Hamas human shields, it's on the terrorists that they get hurt, right. Meanwhile on the subject of human shields, more reports of IDF using random Gazan civilians as bait for boobytraps and the likes. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/14/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-military-human-shields.htmlI'm sure someone will come up with an explanation as to why these aren't war crimes, though, and even if they were, it's just because of some bad apples who will no doubt be investigated and brought to justice any moment now. Besides, war is horrible, haven't you heard. It's the evil terrorists who started it that are to blame.
Imagine taking the auld Texas Sharpshooter fallacy and making it part of your military doctrine. Well ok I guess one doesn’t have to imagine
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On October 14 2024 21:49 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2024 21:05 PremoBeats wrote:On October 14 2024 20:22 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 14 2024 20:02 PremoBeats wrote:On October 14 2024 19:33 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 14 2024 19:29 PremoBeats wrote:On October 14 2024 19:20 Nebuchad wrote:
I reckon the IDF is probably lying, but by the time it becomes apparent they were, everybody will have moved on. What a surprise! You think that the IDF is lying? But in this case it absolutely seems plausible: They orchestrated the Hezbollah attack on their tanks with a mule which they placed in Hezbollah, sacrificed a couple of soldiers to be able to harass the UN and make them leave. Completely sound reasoning! 'Israel is lying' is actually a really good default position, the same as 'Hamas is lying'. The fact that both have been repeatedly caught lying about the conflict means that believing one side or the other is just showing bias at this point. For it to be a good default position, you would need to prove that they lied more often than they told the truths. The reasoning gets worse and worse at this point. You guys made it perfectly clear that you are only here to shit on Israel. Which is fine, I guess. I am simply here to point out the illogical ways of thinking and denials of actual data once they occur (which happens quite often). to your second text: You and I engaged in a short wall of text, don't you remember? Which started quite nice iirc. But somewhere the cynicism started to kick in and one-liners were the new MO. Yes but I don't have the energy these days to keep it up. I've been cynical all along, especially when it comes to Israel. That's what happens when over the years you see constant dehumanization of Palestinians, weak excuses for outright murder, ethnic cleansing being portrayed as necessary rather than a choice etc. etc. The same way I don't listen to what Hamas are saying, and I don't listen to what Trump is saying, I won't listen to the propaganda coming from Israel. Sometimes a source will prove itself so unreliable as to actually damage any hope of conversation. On the other side of this, the UN are a pretty good source when it comes to the conflict. You are perfectly fine to focus on dozens of singular incidents that paint a certain picture, but are not representative of the overall conflict or MO of a certain side. And if you think that the UN with its in-built majority against Israel and especially UNRWA are good sources, that is ok too. But I'd rather look at the grand scheme and compare data from this conflict to similar ones. Hence, I have no issues to point out that Hamas is deliberately targeting civilians as this is well-documented by neutral sources as well as Hamas themselves, who broadcasted their barbarism live when it happened, while denying the same intention for Israel, as the numbers do not indicate it. And while I never claimed that Israel's side never did anything wrong (quite contrary, I denounced and condemned all of the proven war crimes that happened) as I don't believe it, people seem to forget that this is a war. And horrible things simply happen in wars. A lot. On October 14 2024 20:25 Salazarz wrote:On October 14 2024 20:17 PremoBeats wrote:On October 14 2024 20:06 Salazarz wrote:
Which of the things I've listed aren't happening? Wouldn't it be nice if you answered the questions that I posed several times now first? No it wouldn't, because if you're going to pretend the things I'm talking about aren't real then there's no reason to engage with you in good faith. The side that is saying that a genocide or deliberate starvation targeted at the Gazan population is happening are not pretending that things that do not happen are actually happening? Is that not a sign of bad faith? Ethnic cleansing. I believe it is happening, once the hostages have been freed and the Israelis are actually forcing the Gazans out of Palestine. How can you do this if you dismiss testimony and various sources of data out of hand? That aside I don’t think there are too many comparable conflicts. Whether Israel’s numbers re civilian casualties are reasonable or not I’m not sure can be ascertained in this manner. There are few conflicts I’m aware of with such a huge power disparity, level of military sophistication etc. Where it’s effectively shooting fish in a barrel in a pretty small geographic area if you so fancy it. This isn’t to say that attempting a comparison is a fruitless exercise, I just don’t see that many conflicts that have these characteristics, to the degree we’re approaching apples and oranges territory.
Which testimonies and data do you mean?
Perhaps I haven't made myself clear: I don't deny that horrible things, mistakes and actual war crimes happened.
I am rather posing questions if they simply paint a picture that is truly representative of the whole conflict (hence before I spoke of dozens of singular instances... I don't deny them. I simply question how much they represent the whole conflict of thousands of encounters weekly).
I used the civilian casualty rate before to counter the claims of "genocide" and "deliberate targeting of Palestinian civilians". These allegations simply make no sense when we compare civilian casualty rates with similar conflicts, where the IDF fares much better than other factions, despite Hamas' human shield tactics.
Things like Israelis forcing Palestinians into tunnels to check for booby traps happened nevertheless. Or attacks on humanitarian convoys for whatever reasons. But my point is, that all of this is happening in each and every war and that Israel is faring much better than other factions in comparison, despite the hurdles that are unique to Gaza.
And the power dynamic - in my opinion - is completely irrelevant, if the inferior side keeps attacking. I don't know if you read my stance on this before, but I think, that to surrender or not re-engage is the responsibility of the inferior force (in this context: let the hostages go and stop fighting immediately).
And it is the responsibility of the superior force to present conditions and terms that prevent escalation in the future (see Versailles. In this context: de-settlement, plans for bringing infrastructure to Gaza).
Israel is stronger by far, but it cannot leave the targeted attack on civilians, mass abduction and displacement go without doing anything - no country could. And I wouldn't even mind, if Hamas was fighting only for the freedom of Gazans and attacking military targets.
But they don't. They disregard the needs of their population to fight a war of terror against the state that they want to eradicate with the support of other Islamic extremist groups.
And I think my stance is the reason, people hardly engage with me.
They cannot answer what Israel should have done after October 7th, except put ALL blame on them and dodging the question.
They cannot answer how to get rid of Hamas in Gaza, which is the primary hurdle that stands in the way of a more prosperous Gaza as 2007 and onward have shown.
They also cannot answer what to do about the over 100 hostages if Israel goes along with their suggestion of an immediate cease-fire.
Because there are no easy solutions.
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EPT
