EPTThings Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine - Page 353
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Salazarz
Korea (South)2549 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21108 Posts
On October 13 2024 18:57 Salazarz wrote: Because it conflicts with the notion that Israel can do no wrong.Netanyahu is straight up directly saying he is PROUD to have sabotaged the Oslo accords. How is this something you are arguing about? | ||
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KT_Elwood
474 Posts
On October 11 2024 20:37 Magic Powers wrote: Reeducate the Untermenschen, they need saving from the master race. But first kill them. Your rhetoric resembles that of so many other historic fascists, it's incredible that you're completely incapable of noticing the overlap. Edit: just noticed Elwood is mocking people getting massacred... so this is it then, huh. We're devolving real fast around here. I know a few people who need reeducation, and it's not the Palestinians. It's the people cheering on Israel. I really think it's pointless to talk to you. Nazis getting reeducated by allied occupation suddenly is equivalent to . nazis gassing minorities.. UN leadership in NY struggeling to pull out their damn troops from a warzone despite several warnings becomes "Mocking people who get massacred" I think you are a damn troll playing tankie roll play game on forums. | ||
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KT_Elwood
474 Posts
On October 13 2024 19:10 Gorsameth wrote: Because it conflicts with the notion that Israel can do no wrong. Nobody in their right mind says israel can't do wrong, that's just bad faith style of arguing an violently discredit anything but your antisemitic opinion. Israel bombing houses of families of terrorists .. is useless and wrong. Netanyahu is an asshole, settlers and hardline zionist are religious moronns that need to be straightened out.. yet.. what is happening now is on hamas and hezbollah and they need to be wipded off the map. | ||
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PremoBeats
246 Posts
On October 13 2024 18:57 Salazarz wrote: Netanyahu is straight up directly saying he is PROUD to have sabotaged the Oslo accords. How is this something you are arguing about? Did I ever say that Israel was not deeply divided over the Oslo Accords? Netanyahu was in the opposition back then and yes, he was very vocal about his concerns. Your own link even says that "Criticism of Netanyahu’s comments was swift in coming, with Yisrael Beytenu MK Oded Forer pointing out that Netanyahu had implemented interim agreements of the Oslo peace process in the 1990", when Netanyahu tried to gain credit for his former actions. Do you truly think that Oslo only failed because of the Israelis? Because from what I've read, most reports say that both sides as well as external factors were at fault. And if you really care about the Gazan population and are not driven by anti-Israel propaganda: why do you evade what I asked several times, namely: If we agree, that Gazans need something to lose and better lives to stay away form ideas of martyrdom: How would you want to achieve that and get rid of Hamas in Gaza, as it is obvious that prosperity or the state of the Gazan population is not primarily Hamas' main target, as 2007 and later years have shown? More so: That they even gain martyrs and supporters when letting the population suffer and blame Israel (not saying that Israel is free of responsibility entirely at the same time)? On October 13 2024 19:10 Gorsameth wrote: Because it conflicts with the notion that Israel can do no wrong. Good thing neither anyone else in this thread nor I ever proclaimed that notion. | ||
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Salazarz
Korea (South)2549 Posts
As for getting rid of Hamas, you'd think after 30+ years folks would realize by now that killing Palestinians isn't going to make them like Israel more. But apparently, the issue is that IDF simply hasn't killed enough of them, and if they just kill a few (tens of) thousands more, then it'll finally work. Or something? | ||
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PremoBeats
246 Posts
On October 13 2024 20:46 Salazarz wrote: I don't think Oslo accords failed because of Israelis, I know Oslo accords couldn't have possibly succeeded because Israelis didn't want them to. They fucking said so themselves. As for getting rid of Hamas, you'd think after 30+ years folks would realize by now that killing Palestinians isn't going to make them like Israel more. But apparently, the issue is that IDF simply hasn't killed enough of them, and if they just kill a few (tens of) thousands more, then it'll finally work. Or something? And with "Israelis didn't want Oslo to succeed and them talking about it" you mean a part of Israelis, correct? The Israelis who mostly were in the opposition, correct? Because Rabin and Peres, the primary representatives of Israel, were pro-Oslo, weren't they? You dodge the question and deliver an insane straw-man. I never said that it is anyone's idea that the IDF hasn't simply killed enough Palestinians. Upon our agreement that Gazans need prosperity, a certain living standard and/or something to lose to not fall pray to ideas of martyrdom and supporting terrorism, I asked what you would do to get rid of Hamas, as removing Hamas, an organization that prioritizes military build-up and terror over civilian welfare and infrastructure, is necessary to create conditions where peace and improved living standards can emerge. This is not about promoting violence, but about addressing one of the root causes - Hamas' prioritization of weapons and war against the state of Israel and its eradication over the well-being of its own people. | ||
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Yurie
11621 Posts
On October 13 2024 20:46 Salazarz wrote: I don't think Oslo accords failed because of Israelis, I know Oslo accords couldn't have possibly succeeded because Israelis didn't want them to. They fucking said so themselves. As for getting rid of Hamas, you'd think after 30+ years folks would realize by now that killing Palestinians isn't going to make them like Israel more. But apparently, the issue is that IDF simply hasn't killed enough of them, and if they just kill a few (tens of) thousands more, then it'll finally work. Or something? Well the middle ground isn't conductive to long term peace. Either try for peace, trade, property rights etc (which neither leadership is going for) or wipe out the other side. I am in favor of the first solution and honestly think it can work. I personally am not in favor of the second solution but it would solve Israel's Palestine issue. Considering how little people care about China's current actions it would likely also not be too costly internationally. A theoretical angle for Israel could be to simply state they will kill everybody remaining at date X. Would most likely open the borders with their neighboring countries and solve it. Downside is if they don't allow entry for the civilians and you are forced to carry it out. Long term that would gain Hamas a big membership but now they are outside and thus easier to handle. Requiring missiles or similar to have any impact. You could also try for a hybrid solution. Basically stating that you kill a city block a day until they give up any military people in Palestine. Kind of how the Mongols forced you to give up or killed everybody. I am personally of the opinion that labor is the value adding activity for a country, so adding more of that is often good. Israel leadership doesn't share that view, so the logical actions become different. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3158 Posts
On October 13 2024 20:20 KT_Elwood wrote: I really think it's pointless to talk to you. Nazis getting reeducated by allied occupation suddenly is equivalent to . nazis gassing minorities.. UN leadership in NY struggeling to pull out their damn troops from a warzone despite several warnings becomes "Mocking people who get massacred" I think you are a damn troll playing tankie roll play game on forums. On October 11 2024 19:10 KT_Elwood wrote: Israel: "GTFO you are sitting on top of hezbollah bunkers" UN: "No, we like it here" "GTFO" UN "No" *gets hit* *autistic screaching* You're clearly mocking victims of a massacre with the "autistic screeching" remark. And mocking autistic people in the same breath. Get off your high horse, your actual standards in this discussion are deep below ground level. Don't act like you're better when you're contributing to hostility like that. If you want to have a respectable discussion with people, act respectable. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9022 Posts
On October 13 2024 20:20 KT_Elwood wrote: I really think it's pointless to talk to you. Nazis getting reeducated by allied occupation suddenly is equivalent to . nazis gassing minorities.. UN leadership in NY struggeling to pull out their damn troops from a warzone despite several warnings becomes "Mocking people who get massacred" I think you are a damn troll playing tankie roll play game on forums. A pretty incredible take given that the UN has had a huge hand in Netenyahu's arrest warrant, and now they suddenly start getting slaughtered by Israel. Do you respect the right of the UN to defend itself from these attacks? | ||
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Elroi
Sweden5546 Posts
On October 13 2024 23:33 Jockmcplop wrote: the UN has had a huge hand in Netenyahu's arrest warrant, and now they suddenly start getting slaughtered by Israel. What did I miss? Are the UN peace keepers getting genocided now too? | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17652 Posts
On October 14 2024 07:17 Elroi wrote: What did I miss? Are the UN peace keepers getting genocided now too? Trivializing attacks on UN forces? Nicely played. But pulling a Serbia is NOT a good look for Israel. | ||
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Billyboy
175 Posts
Israel clearly should not hit them for any reason, for every reason. But also, why are they there, why are their commanders putting them at risk when they serve zero purpose? They were not even remotely fulfilling their mission before Oct 7th let alone now. Had they Israel would have no excuse/reason (depending on perspective) to be attacking Hezbollah right now. And if they are not helping peace, why have more possible causalities. Every non combatant should be getting out ASAP. | ||
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Salazarz
Korea (South)2549 Posts
On October 14 2024 12:10 Billyboy wrote: What has happened to the UN Forces? I quickly checked for up breaking news and don't see anything on them getting slaughtered? Israel clearly should not hit them for any reason, for every reason. But also, why are they there, why are their commanders putting them at risk when they serve zero purpose? They were not even remotely fulfilling their mission before Oct 7th let alone now. Had they Israel would have no excuse/reason (depending on perspective) to be attacking Hezbollah right now. And if they are not helping peace, why have more possible causalities. Every non combatant should be getting out ASAP. Why don't you read what the UN troops themselves say about their mission there, and whether it serves any purpose, instead of taking Israel propaganda at face value? The folks stationed there admit they don't have the capability to stop fighting entirely, and that's not what their mission is. They are there to prevent escalations as much as possible, to minimize civilian casualties and 'collateral damage' and to steer local population away from radicalization -- and while many regret they can't do more, they believe the conflict would be far more bloody and damaging without them. In a perfect world, we'd have Israeli soldiers meet Hezbollah fighters in an open field with no other parties involved, but that's not a realistic proposition. The notion that Israel told every non-combatant to get out and thus anyone who didn't get out is a valid target is utterly idiotic. | ||
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Billyboy
175 Posts
On October 14 2024 12:18 Salazarz wrote: Why don't you read what the UN troops themselves say about their mission there, and whether it serves any purpose, instead of taking Israel propaganda at face value? The folks stationed there admit they don't have the capability to stop fighting entirely, and that's not what their mission is. They are there to prevent escalations as much as possible, to minimize civilian casualties and 'collateral damage' and to steer local population away from radicalization -- and while many regret they can't do more, they believe the conflict would be far more bloody and damaging without them. In a perfect world, we'd have Israeli soldiers meet Hezbollah fighters in an open field with no other parties involved, but that's not a realistic proposition. The notion that Israel told every non-combatant to get out and thus anyone who didn't get out is a valid target is utterly idiotic. That is idiotic. Why did you write it? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland22439 Posts
On October 14 2024 12:18 Salazarz wrote: Why don't you read what the UN troops themselves say about their mission there, and whether it serves any purpose, instead of taking Israel propaganda at face value? The folks stationed there admit they don't have the capability to stop fighting entirely, and that's not what their mission is. They are there to prevent escalations as much as possible, to minimize civilian casualties and 'collateral damage' and to steer local population away from radicalization -- and while many regret they can't do more, they believe the conflict would be far more bloody and damaging without them. In a perfect world, we'd have Israeli soldiers meet Hezbollah fighters in an open field with no other parties involved, but that's not a realistic proposition. The notion that Israel told every non-combatant to get out and thus anyone who didn't get out is a valid target is utterly idiotic. I saw a Lebanese bloke on the news the other day who spoke English with a properly thick Dublin accent, which was bizarre, but I think attests to various peacekeepers (the Irish in this case obviously) having quite some contact with the local populations. I’m unsure how effective or otherwise it is in deradicalisation or steering folks away from Hezbollah so I can’t comment there, but I think even having folks on the ground who can observe proceedings has some worth. | ||
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pmp10
3213 Posts
Clearly they don't think that previous Iran retaliation was the last one. Apparently foreign troops stationed in Israel is pretty unusual, but one case were Patriot batteries deployed in 1991. Supposedly, back then Israel was given them in exchange for not retaliating too hard against Iraq. History rymes. In either case the preparations for escalation will have global implications and are bad news for Ukraine. Any missile war with Iran might leave them short of patriots to defend their infrastructure. | ||
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KT_Elwood
474 Posts
On October 13 2024 23:33 Jockmcplop wrote: A pretty incredible take given that the UN has had a huge hand in Netenyahu's arrest warrant, and now they suddenly start getting slaughtered by Israel. Do you respect the right of the UN to defend itself from these attacks? So the UN failed to do all the things they had a mandate to in Lebanon. And instead of removing their troops from a war zone.. like every other organisation did.. they double down on being useless by using the hamas tactics: Strap a "victim" to the compounds roof and claim "Massacre!!!!" if your compound gets hit. UN should have demilitarized the border region, should have taken away hezbollahs ability to strike israel.. and they failed. Which is okay given the circumstances. But like any other NGO, UN's main struggle is to keep up their public image for funding. Right now they have a court - whose decisions don't matter. And they have troops that aren't robust. The Security Council is always blocking itself. To me they can close up everything and just keep the food programme. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland11670 Posts
On October 14 2024 15:47 KT_Elwood wrote: So the UN failed to do all the things they had a mandate to in Lebanon. And instead of removing their troops from a war zone.. like every other organisation did.. they double down on being useless by using the hamas tactics: Strap a "victim" to the compounds roof and claim "Massacre!!!!" if your compound gets hit. UN should have demilitarized the border region, should have taken away hezbollahs ability to strike israel.. and they failed. Which is okay given the circumstances. But like any other NGO, UN's main struggle is to keep up their public image for funding. Right now they have a court - whose decisions don't matter. And they have troops that aren't robust. The Security Council is always blocking itself. To me they can close up everything and just keep the food programme. Victim in quotation marks | ||
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Salazarz
Korea (South)2549 Posts
On October 14 2024 15:47 KT_Elwood wrote: So the UN failed to do all the things they had a mandate to in Lebanon. And instead of removing their troops from a war zone.. like every other organisation did.. they double down on being useless by using the hamas tactics: Strap a "victim" to the compounds roof and claim "Massacre!!!!" if your compound gets hit. UN should have demilitarized the border region, should have taken away hezbollahs ability to strike israel.. and they failed. Which is okay given the circumstances. But like any other NGO, UN's main struggle is to keep up their public image for funding. Right now they have a court - whose decisions don't matter. And they have troops that aren't robust. The Security Council is always blocking itself. To me they can close up everything and just keep the food programme. Yeah so how about just, I don't know, not hitting UN compounds in the first place? | ||
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