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On August 19 2024 20:55 Velr wrote:
Hamas doesn't want peace.
Hamas doesn't want land.
Hamas doesn't care how many palestininans die, in fact they actually like civilian casaulities because their propaganda is working splendid on tons of people.
Hamas wants to kill all the jews and erradicate Israel.
Have fun finding an appropriate peace deal.
Hamas Hamas Hamas.
They were in large part created by Israel, not just by Palestinians.
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On August 19 2024 20:21 Uldridge wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2024 19:59 stilt wrote:
Sure buddy, we have 300 pages because it is a western country heavely supplied in weapons by the rest of the west which enjoys a massive diplomatic and financial support by the west and in which palestinians advocates are repressed.
An economic entanglement is not a form of diplomatic alignment indeed but a codependance. It is a forced situation the west and especially the us is trying to get away.
Funny as you don't mention the diplomatic, export and financial sanction against myanmar anymore.
As I said, your whatanoutism is extremely weak.
I don't know anything about Myanmar is I refrain from talking about it. I'm not afraid or whatever. I'm not the bad actor you're implying me to be. I'm simply very ignorant and trying to get every perspective here. Keep your hostility in your pants, thanks. @MP, the word aggressive was chosen wrongly in this context. It was more in the line of "fast" than "hostile", even though both can mean the same thing in certain contexts.
My hostility came from the fact you're talking, as you admit, about stuff you have no idea about like the myanmar sanctions and you are extremely dishonnest when you're comparing the overwhelming western support through weapons, finance, diplomaty that israel enjoys and the so called support to china who is currently in a commercial and ideological war with the west. It's crazy to compare the two in good faith
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If not 2 state, how does anyone imagine the long term solution to be? More of the same of how it is now right? Until "it" is cleansed and no more land to claim i guess.
In truth, who cares what Hamas think, they aren't to be trusted and it's not like Israel is restricted in anyway from killing them. But what then, back to status quo nothing to see here.
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And? It's still the goverment of Gaza and the party that would have to agree on a peace deal. Which it doesn't want to, because it doesn't give a shit about palestinians. It'sprobably the most vile goverment on the planet.
How do you see Israel making peace with it, when it doesn't even want to? Hamas doesn't want a 2 state, more authonomity or anything of the stort, it plain wants Israel and the Jews gone, death ideally.
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On August 19 2024 21:37 Velr wrote:
And? It's still the goverment of Gaza and the party that would have to agree on a peace deal. Which it doesn't want to, because it doesn't give a shit about palestinians. It'sprobably the most vile goverment on the planet.
How do you see Israel making peace with it, when it doesn't even want to? Hamas doesn't want a 2 state, more authonomity or anything of the stort, it plain wants Israel and the Jews gone, death ideally.
Netanyahu is still the leader of Israel and he'd have to agree on a peace deal. Which he doesn't want to, because he doesn't give a shit about Palestinians. He's probably the most vile leader on the planet.
How do you see Palestinians making peace with him, when he doesn't even want to? Netanyahu doesn't want a two-state, more autonomy or anything of the sort, he plain wants Palestinians gone, death ideally.
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On August 19 2024 19:59 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2024 19:39 Uldridge wrote:On August 19 2024 19:16 Magic Powers wrote:On August 19 2024 19:14 Uldridge wrote:
No one combs through 307 pages of discussion to try and find a condemnation of Hamas though. It's difficult knowing your position as a new contributor when there's been so mucb history. And it's unreasonable for people to preface all their positions every time someone news enters. I didn't expect such a quick response, so I edited my comment to address that exact point before I saw your response. I'll put it in this comment instead: If you get the impression that Israel is receiving way more flack, that's because there's a controversy. People on one side argue that Israel is doing nothing wrong. No one is arguing that Hamas did nothing wrong. I've read roughly 90% of the comments in this thread since October 7, and there is no controversy around Hamas. Everyone condemns them, and they've been condemned plenty of times despite there not being any need to because it's uncontroversial. So the controversy of Israel's actions may create the impression in some people (who haven't seen the many condemnations of Hamas) that the focus is entirely on Israel when in reality that is absolutely not the case at all. People who are opposed to you understand the reasons why you argue your opinions though. They disagree with you about the legitimacy of how Israel can conduct themselves. I can imagine it being quit difficult to finally being given a piece of (contested - can be argued) land to settle on and to build an internally peaceful and prosperous society and all the surrounding countries have tried to do is completely eradicate you. Sadly Palestine, or until they became united under that taxon, the people who lived in that region, took the brunt of the Zionist machine (not without their own instigations or retalliations though) and thus became a disenfranchised people. I can condemn Israel but I can also defend their plight. They have a fucking defense structure to shoot rockets out of sky aimed at them, like how surreal is that to have standing in your own backyard. At the same time it's horrible Palestinians need to be quenched like this because they're basically a pawn in the entire ordeal (Iran, Israel, Hezbollah, Hamas axes of conflict). I have no clue what all the players involved actually are but it woiuldn't surprise me there's shadow funding all over the place for different organisations to eradicate Israel still. How do you conduct yourself in the best way possible in such a hostile area? Is the existence of Israel a legitimate claim? If the neighboring countries can't accept that, how do we get to a peaceful situation? Does Israel get to aggressively try to carve out land for itself to make itself a more prosperous nation? Maybe. Depends on how humane they can do it. There have been accounts of Israelites buying land from Palestinians in the past. Forceful ejection is not what I want to see, but from where I'm sitting (very comfortably) the only thing I see is that they are in between a rock and a hard place and they're forcing the Palestinians in an impossible situation (with them). I don't know anymore, I'm rambling. This geopolitical situation is a circular argument irl. On August 19 2024 19:26 stilt wrote:
Myanmar has been under financial sanction by the eu and us and no weapons can be exported there. Same for china actually, they don't enjoy our diplomatic support neither do we provide them weapons.
Israel on ther other hand is heavely supplied in weapon by both the us and germany while enjoying a gigantic diplomatic support during the genocide they're committing.
And ofc the repression on palestine advocate is going strong.
So yeah, absolutly nothing in common, your whaboutism is really weak. My whataboutism stems from the fact we don't have 300+ pages discussing Myanmar or China. China may not have diplomatic support, our economic entanglement is very wide and deep. If that is not a form of diplomatic alignment (hey, let's trade on every level possible, except maybe weapons), that's just bullshit to me. I can actually agree with most of what you said, there's just the underlined part that I can't wrap my head around. "Does Israel get to aggressively try to carve out land for itself to make itself a more prosperous nation? Maybe. Depends on how humane they can do it." No, not maybe. Not even "humanely". Israel has enough land, it's time for Palestinians to receive their land back and get a state with its own infrastructure, functioning government, law, police force, military, and everything else that a proper country is expected to have. It's time for Israel to stop. And for the hundredth time, it's also time for Palestinians to stop being violent. Realistically this will be a very long process and some violence is expected to continue for many decades. But over time it can be reduced. What Israel's administration is doing right now is the opposite of that. More aggressive land grabs, more escalation of the conflict, and less will to compromise. Israel is doing the opposite of what's required, their powerful players (including anti-Palestinian extremists) are actively undermining the peace process and instead pushing for more war and more oppression. How is it acceptable that Western countries actively support this monetarily and morally? There's no way this is in line with our supposed (!) values. Though I do want to say again, the majority of your comment rubs me the right way. I don't want to make an elephant out of a single point of contention, you're obviously thinking about the problem way more rationally than Premo.
I can agree with that. There should never have been a 'solution' where Palestine was split into 2 small land areas, even though when you look at the 1946 map it wasn't close to what it is today. A horizontal border through Jerusalem (Israel north, Palestine south) would have been much better. But I don't think that would have been acceptable by the Palestine nation either. Haven't they made clear they won't stop until Israel or they are completely destroyed?
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On August 19 2024 20:55 Velr wrote:
Hamas doesn't want peace.
Hamas doesn't want land.
Hamas doesn't care how many palestininans die, in fact they actually like civilian casaulities because their propaganda is working splendid on tons of people.
Hamas wants to kill all the jews and erradicate Israel.
Have fun finding an appropriate peace deal.
Israel doesn't want peace.
Israel wants land.
Israel doesn't care how many palestininans die, in fact they actually like civilian casaulities because their propaganda is working splendid on tons of people.
Israel wants to kill all the Palestinians and erradicate Gaza and the West Bank.
Have fun finding an appropriate peace deal.
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On August 19 2024 21:46 aseq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2024 19:59 Magic Powers wrote:On August 19 2024 19:39 Uldridge wrote:On August 19 2024 19:16 Magic Powers wrote:On August 19 2024 19:14 Uldridge wrote:
No one combs through 307 pages of discussion to try and find a condemnation of Hamas though. It's difficult knowing your position as a new contributor when there's been so mucb history. And it's unreasonable for people to preface all their positions every time someone news enters. I didn't expect such a quick response, so I edited my comment to address that exact point before I saw your response. I'll put it in this comment instead: If you get the impression that Israel is receiving way more flack, that's because there's a controversy. People on one side argue that Israel is doing nothing wrong. No one is arguing that Hamas did nothing wrong. I've read roughly 90% of the comments in this thread since October 7, and there is no controversy around Hamas. Everyone condemns them, and they've been condemned plenty of times despite there not being any need to because it's uncontroversial. So the controversy of Israel's actions may create the impression in some people (who haven't seen the many condemnations of Hamas) that the focus is entirely on Israel when in reality that is absolutely not the case at all. People who are opposed to you understand the reasons why you argue your opinions though. They disagree with you about the legitimacy of how Israel can conduct themselves. I can imagine it being quit difficult to finally being given a piece of (contested - can be argued) land to settle on and to build an internally peaceful and prosperous society and all the surrounding countries have tried to do is completely eradicate you. Sadly Palestine, or until they became united under that taxon, the people who lived in that region, took the brunt of the Zionist machine (not without their own instigations or retalliations though) and thus became a disenfranchised people. I can condemn Israel but I can also defend their plight. They have a fucking defense structure to shoot rockets out of sky aimed at them, like how surreal is that to have standing in your own backyard. At the same time it's horrible Palestinians need to be quenched like this because they're basically a pawn in the entire ordeal (Iran, Israel, Hezbollah, Hamas axes of conflict). I have no clue what all the players involved actually are but it woiuldn't surprise me there's shadow funding all over the place for different organisations to eradicate Israel still. How do you conduct yourself in the best way possible in such a hostile area? Is the existence of Israel a legitimate claim? If the neighboring countries can't accept that, how do we get to a peaceful situation? Does Israel get to aggressively try to carve out land for itself to make itself a more prosperous nation? Maybe. Depends on how humane they can do it. There have been accounts of Israelites buying land from Palestinians in the past. Forceful ejection is not what I want to see, but from where I'm sitting (very comfortably) the only thing I see is that they are in between a rock and a hard place and they're forcing the Palestinians in an impossible situation (with them). I don't know anymore, I'm rambling. This geopolitical situation is a circular argument irl. On August 19 2024 19:26 stilt wrote:
Myanmar has been under financial sanction by the eu and us and no weapons can be exported there. Same for china actually, they don't enjoy our diplomatic support neither do we provide them weapons.
Israel on ther other hand is heavely supplied in weapon by both the us and germany while enjoying a gigantic diplomatic support during the genocide they're committing.
And ofc the repression on palestine advocate is going strong.
So yeah, absolutly nothing in common, your whaboutism is really weak. My whataboutism stems from the fact we don't have 300+ pages discussing Myanmar or China. China may not have diplomatic support, our economic entanglement is very wide and deep. If that is not a form of diplomatic alignment (hey, let's trade on every level possible, except maybe weapons), that's just bullshit to me. I can actually agree with most of what you said, there's just the underlined part that I can't wrap my head around. "Does Israel get to aggressively try to carve out land for itself to make itself a more prosperous nation? Maybe. Depends on how humane they can do it." No, not maybe. Not even "humanely". Israel has enough land, it's time for Palestinians to receive their land back and get a state with its own infrastructure, functioning government, law, police force, military, and everything else that a proper country is expected to have. It's time for Israel to stop. And for the hundredth time, it's also time for Palestinians to stop being violent. Realistically this will be a very long process and some violence is expected to continue for many decades. But over time it can be reduced. What Israel's administration is doing right now is the opposite of that. More aggressive land grabs, more escalation of the conflict, and less will to compromise. Israel is doing the opposite of what's required, their powerful players (including anti-Palestinian extremists) are actively undermining the peace process and instead pushing for more war and more oppression. How is it acceptable that Western countries actively support this monetarily and morally? There's no way this is in line with our supposed (!) values. Though I do want to say again, the majority of your comment rubs me the right way. I don't want to make an elephant out of a single point of contention, you're obviously thinking about the problem way more rationally than Premo. I can agree with that. There should never have been a 'solution' where Palestine was split into 2 small land areas, even though when you look at the 1946 map it wasn't close to what it is today. A horizontal border through Jerusalem (Israel north, Palestine south) would have been much better. But I don't think that would have been acceptable by the Palestine nation either. Haven't they made clear they won't stop until Israel or they are completely destroyed?
Several of the extremist Palestinian factions have called for death to Israel, yes. Hamas being the latest/most powerful one. There are notable exceptions such as Fatah, which was initially calling for Israel's death, but then changed its policy and became surprisingly moderate. They recognized Israel's existence.
As history shows, there's no reason why extremist factions can't become moderate. It depends on many factors such as diplomatic efforts.
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On August 19 2024 20:55 Velr wrote:
Hamas doesn't want peace.
Hamas doesn't want land.
Hamas doesn't care how many palestininans die, in fact they actually like civilian casaulities because their propaganda is working splendid on tons of people.
Hamas wants to kill all the jews and erradicate Israel.
Have fun finding an appropriate peace deal.
There's no deal to be made. There was an extremely slim chance before Yahya Sinwar took over the political element.
I feel like everyone's way behind on this. Especially the US government.
The chances of peace are zero, some genius is going to have to think of a solution that doesn't depend on Hamas agreeing to something.
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On August 19 2024 21:46 aseq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2024 19:59 Magic Powers wrote:On August 19 2024 19:39 Uldridge wrote:On August 19 2024 19:16 Magic Powers wrote:On August 19 2024 19:14 Uldridge wrote:
No one combs through 307 pages of discussion to try and find a condemnation of Hamas though. It's difficult knowing your position as a new contributor when there's been so mucb history. And it's unreasonable for people to preface all their positions every time someone news enters. I didn't expect such a quick response, so I edited my comment to address that exact point before I saw your response. I'll put it in this comment instead: If you get the impression that Israel is receiving way more flack, that's because there's a controversy. People on one side argue that Israel is doing nothing wrong. No one is arguing that Hamas did nothing wrong. I've read roughly 90% of the comments in this thread since October 7, and there is no controversy around Hamas. Everyone condemns them, and they've been condemned plenty of times despite there not being any need to because it's uncontroversial. So the controversy of Israel's actions may create the impression in some people (who haven't seen the many condemnations of Hamas) that the focus is entirely on Israel when in reality that is absolutely not the case at all. People who are opposed to you understand the reasons why you argue your opinions though. They disagree with you about the legitimacy of how Israel can conduct themselves. I can imagine it being quit difficult to finally being given a piece of (contested - can be argued) land to settle on and to build an internally peaceful and prosperous society and all the surrounding countries have tried to do is completely eradicate you. Sadly Palestine, or until they became united under that taxon, the people who lived in that region, took the brunt of the Zionist machine (not without their own instigations or retalliations though) and thus became a disenfranchised people. I can condemn Israel but I can also defend their plight. They have a fucking defense structure to shoot rockets out of sky aimed at them, like how surreal is that to have standing in your own backyard. At the same time it's horrible Palestinians need to be quenched like this because they're basically a pawn in the entire ordeal (Iran, Israel, Hezbollah, Hamas axes of conflict). I have no clue what all the players involved actually are but it woiuldn't surprise me there's shadow funding all over the place for different organisations to eradicate Israel still. How do you conduct yourself in the best way possible in such a hostile area? Is the existence of Israel a legitimate claim? If the neighboring countries can't accept that, how do we get to a peaceful situation? Does Israel get to aggressively try to carve out land for itself to make itself a more prosperous nation? Maybe. Depends on how humane they can do it. There have been accounts of Israelites buying land from Palestinians in the past. Forceful ejection is not what I want to see, but from where I'm sitting (very comfortably) the only thing I see is that they are in between a rock and a hard place and they're forcing the Palestinians in an impossible situation (with them). I don't know anymore, I'm rambling. This geopolitical situation is a circular argument irl. On August 19 2024 19:26 stilt wrote:
Myanmar has been under financial sanction by the eu and us and no weapons can be exported there. Same for china actually, they don't enjoy our diplomatic support neither do we provide them weapons.
Israel on ther other hand is heavely supplied in weapon by both the us and germany while enjoying a gigantic diplomatic support during the genocide they're committing.
And ofc the repression on palestine advocate is going strong.
So yeah, absolutly nothing in common, your whaboutism is really weak. My whataboutism stems from the fact we don't have 300+ pages discussing Myanmar or China. China may not have diplomatic support, our economic entanglement is very wide and deep. If that is not a form of diplomatic alignment (hey, let's trade on every level possible, except maybe weapons), that's just bullshit to me. I can actually agree with most of what you said, there's just the underlined part that I can't wrap my head around. "Does Israel get to aggressively try to carve out land for itself to make itself a more prosperous nation? Maybe. Depends on how humane they can do it." No, not maybe. Not even "humanely". Israel has enough land, it's time for Palestinians to receive their land back and get a state with its own infrastructure, functioning government, law, police force, military, and everything else that a proper country is expected to have. It's time for Israel to stop. And for the hundredth time, it's also time for Palestinians to stop being violent. Realistically this will be a very long process and some violence is expected to continue for many decades. But over time it can be reduced. What Israel's administration is doing right now is the opposite of that. More aggressive land grabs, more escalation of the conflict, and less will to compromise. Israel is doing the opposite of what's required, their powerful players (including anti-Palestinian extremists) are actively undermining the peace process and instead pushing for more war and more oppression. How is it acceptable that Western countries actively support this monetarily and morally? There's no way this is in line with our supposed (!) values. Though I do want to say again, the majority of your comment rubs me the right way. I don't want to make an elephant out of a single point of contention, you're obviously thinking about the problem way more rationally than Premo. I can agree with that. There should never have been a 'solution' where Palestine was split into 2 small land areas, even though when you look at the 1946 map it wasn't close to what it is today. A horizontal border through Jerusalem (Israel north, Palestine south) would have been much better. But I don't think that would have been acceptable by the Palestine nation either. Haven't they made clear they won't stop until Israel or they are completely destroyed?
It's very easy to recruit people into extremist organizations when they have no future and no perspectives. If their situation improves, you'll find less of them willing to die for some cause. You'll still find some, of course. But less of them.
This is mostly academic because under this government Israel will never allow any of this, they require extremists against them to paint as threatening in order to justify their actions.
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On August 19 2024 21:50 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2024 20:55 Velr wrote:
Hamas doesn't want peace.
Hamas doesn't want land.
Hamas doesn't care how many palestininans die, in fact they actually like civilian casaulities because their propaganda is working splendid on tons of people.
Hamas wants to kill all the jews and erradicate Israel.
Have fun finding an appropriate peace deal. Israel doesn't want peace. Israel wants land. Israel doesn't care how many palestininans die, in fact they actually like civilian casaulities because their propaganda is working splendid on tons of people. Israel wants to kill all the Palestinians and erradicate Gaza and the West Bank. Have fun finding an appropriate peace deal.
Cute but that still makes Israel the morally superior party by miles.
Israel isn't hiding it's military under Schools and Hospitals. It hasn't turned itself into one giant fortress. Normal countries build tunnels/shelters for their civilians, Hamas does explicitly for their fighters while not allowing civilians to seek shelter.
Israel isn't actively targeting anything that moves, unlike Hamas that invaded last october with the clear goal to kill as many civilians as possible in a precisely planned attack. It wasn't a terrorist attack, it was a well coordinated military strike on civilians with the goal to kill as many as possible.
Israels propaganda is obviously failing on tons of levels because I don't see tons morons demonstrate for Israel, unlike Hamas. I also don't see tons of media posting it's casaulty figures, unlike Hamas that just puts out random bullshit numbers via the palestinian health organisation or whatever it's called that get spread by the media.
Israel wants to kill all the Palestinians and erradicate Gaza and the West Bank.
No, it VERY obviously doesn't.
The party responsible for the large majority of the civilian deaths in Gaza is Hamas. It willingly breaks any and all rules of war, in fact it actively fights in a way that makes it impossible to minimize civilian casaulities. Hamas doesn't care about it's own citizens.
Plenty of ciriticism of Israel is valid, that doesn't excuse anything Hamas does.
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On August 19 2024 23:52 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2024 21:50 Gahlo wrote:On August 19 2024 20:55 Velr wrote:
Hamas doesn't want peace.
Hamas doesn't want land.
Hamas doesn't care how many palestininans die, in fact they actually like civilian casaulities because their propaganda is working splendid on tons of people.
Hamas wants to kill all the jews and erradicate Israel.
Have fun finding an appropriate peace deal. Israel doesn't want peace. Israel wants land. Israel doesn't care how many palestininans die, in fact they actually like civilian casaulities because their propaganda is working splendid on tons of people. Israel wants to kill all the Palestinians and erradicate Gaza and the West Bank. Have fun finding an appropriate peace deal. Israels propaganda is obviously failing on tons of levels because I don't see tons morons demonstrate for Israel, unlike Hamas. I also don't see tons of media posting it's casaulty figures, unlike Hamas that just puts out random bullshit numbers via the palestinian health organisation or whatever it's called that get spread by the media.
To be fair to Israel, it's very hard to defend what they're doing, so it makes sense that their propaganda is failing. To be fair to reality, their propaganda is quite shit, so even if they had a good case to rely on they might fail at it anyway.
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There's also the claim that Hamas don't care about Palestinian lives. True. So lets compare that to Israel's administration.
"Since October 7, more than 500 Israeli soldiers, officers, and reservists have been killed in the ongoing war against Hamas. The majority of them were killed during Hamas's terror onslaught on southern Israel on October 72. Additionally, at least 46 Israeli soldiers have been killed since the ground invasion of Gaza began at the end of the month."
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/501-israeli-soldiers-have-been-killed-in-war-against-hamas-starting-oct-7-idf/
So the idea is to protect Israeli citizens, to which the IDF soldiers belong as well. If that is the idea, then Israel is not protecting its citizens all that well, unless they expect Hamas to kill hundreds of Israelis over the course of the next year.
I forgot to mention this news came out in December 2023. It's not gonna be any better today...
Edit: found an updated source.
"Since October 7, 689 IDF soldiers have been killed, and 4,303 have been wounded, the IDF reported Saturday in its latest summary of the war’s casualty data."
https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-814126
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On August 19 2024 21:35 stilt wrote:
My hostility came from the fact you're talking, as you admit, about stuff you have no idea about like the myanmar sanctions and you are extremely dishonnest when you're comparing the overwhelming western support through weapons, finance, diplomaty that israel enjoys and the so called support to china who is currently in a commercial and ideological war with the west. It's crazy to compare the two in good faith
Perhaps. I don't know how Western-Chinese relations are actually playing out, but I do know we still exchange students and import Chinese raw materials. So there must be something extremely valuable they're providing at the very least.
Overwhelming support might be a bit much, but maybe you'd do well in trying to understand why these government are acting the way they do - you seem very passionate and quite knowledgeable oj the subject.
Is it simply a way to destabilize the region (why?)? Do the Israeli's actually have an ontological leg to stand on?
Are all these governments then unethical/imbecilic? Haven't they done the analysis? Or are they merely using a double standard?
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On August 19 2024 23:52 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2024 21:50 Gahlo wrote:On August 19 2024 20:55 Velr wrote:
Hamas doesn't want peace.
Hamas doesn't want land.
Hamas doesn't care how many palestininans die, in fact they actually like civilian casaulities because their propaganda is working splendid on tons of people.
Hamas wants to kill all the jews and erradicate Israel.
Have fun finding an appropriate peace deal. Israel doesn't want peace. Israel wants land. Israel doesn't care how many palestininans die, in fact they actually like civilian casaulities because their propaganda is working splendid on tons of people. Israel wants to kill all the Palestinians and erradicate Gaza and the West Bank. Have fun finding an appropriate peace deal. Cute but that still makes Israel the morally superior party by miles. Israel isn't hiding it's military under Schools and Hospitals. It hasn't turned itself into one giant fortress. Normal countries build tunnels/shelters for their civilians, Hamas does explicitly for their fighters while not allowing civilians to seek shelter. Israel isn't actively targeting anything that moves, unlike Hamas that invaded last october with the clear goal to kill as many civilians as possible in a precisely planned attack. It wasn't a terrorist attack, it was a well coordinated military strike on civilians with the goal to kill as many as possible. Israels propaganda is obviously failing on tons of levels because I don't see tons morons demonstrate for Israel, unlike Hamas. I also don't see tons of media posting it's casaulty figures, unlike Hamas that just puts out random bullshit numbers via the palestinian health organisation or whatever it's called that get spread by the media.
Get the fuck out of here with building tunnels and shelters for civilians when Israel is actively bombing refugee camps. When they are demarking supposed safe zones and then bombing said zones. Then they are attacking aid convoys that have co-ordinated with them.
Go look at the footage from Northern Gaza that is being released by the UN now that Israel isn't actively blocking them and tell me that that level of destruction is warranted. Tell me that whether or not they were in school or hospitals would have made any fucking difference.
You don't see demonstrations for Israel because there isn't a need for them. Hamas isn't actively flattening large parts of the country, starving people, and letting disease run rampant. Clearly Israel's propaganda isn't failing too hard when demonstrations for innocent Gazans caught in the middle of this shit are by default equated to Hamas by people like you. Also, it's been proven in past that not only are the GHM generally accurate, but when compared to 3rd party counts are more accurate than Israel.
Nothing I have seen from Israel leads me to believe that they give a shit about the Palestinian's well being or seeing them as people.
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Calm down, warrior. You're exactly the type of person I was talking about earlier. If Israel were purposely annihilating civilians, wouldn't they have gotten a lot further than <2% of the population by now? You don't believe the text messages and e-mails sent by Israel are an attempt to reduce casualties? Do you have any idea of how much goes wrong in any war?
And no, we don't need demonstrations for Israel, of course. But why only stand up for Palestine and not the Rohingya or Uyghur, Yemen, Congo? What is the reason you're so vocal about this group only? Or maybe it's not a coincidence, it's because you're against the Israeli rather than backing Palestine? Is it the popular leftist anti-zionism you support, not the "innocent Gazans" that voted Hamas into power and were dancing on the streets on the 7th of October?
"Nothing I have seen from Israel leads me to believe that they give a shit about the Palestinian's well being or seeing them as people." Unlike the Palestinians, who care for the Israeli deeply...I think this idea of keeping the stronger side to a different moral standard than the other partyhas been discussed in this thread before, but it's still relevant. If I had neighbours whose only goal in life it was to end me, I'd be out of sympathy pretty soon.
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I can't guarantee this, but if 200 000 Palestinians had been killed the US may not be Israel's ally anymore. Something tells me by that point even the most hardline supporters would be calling for moderation, and chances are much of the military aid would've dried up.
Netanyahu is fully aware of that. He's a warmonger, but he's not stupid.
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On August 20 2024 07:54 aseq wrote:
Calm down, warrior. You're exactly the type of person I was talking about earlier. If Israel were purposely annihilating civilians, wouldn't they have gotten a lot further than <2% of the population by now? You don't believe the text messages and e-mails sent by Israel are an attempt to reduce casualties? Do you have any idea of how much goes wrong in any war?
And no, we don't need demonstrations for Israel, of course. But why only stand up for Palestine and not the Rohingya or Uyghur, Yemen, Congo? What is the reason you're so vocal about this group only? Or maybe it's not a coincidence, it's because you're against the Israeli rather than backing Palestine? Is it the popular leftist anti-zionism you support, not the "innocent Gazans" that voted Hamas into power and were dancing on the streets on the 7th of October?
"Nothing I have seen from Israel leads me to believe that they give a shit about the Palestinian's well being or seeing them as people." Unlike the Palestinians, who care for the Israeli deeply...I think this idea of keeping the stronger side to a different moral standard than the other partyhas been discussed in this thread before, but it's still relevant. If I had neighbours whose only goal in life it was to end me, I'd be out of sympathy pretty soon.
They will bake their own bias into their point of course, so here we can see that aseq is very concerned with the innocence of Gazans, he'll put that in quotes to show that it's a lie and that in truth Gazans are not innocent, which presumably means that they deserve to get bombed I assume. But that part won't be said, I'm probably uncharitable for reading that much into quotes, instead this post is about asking the same questions over and over pretending that they haven't been answered, because this isn't really a conversation, this is just stalling.
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On August 20 2024 09:03 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2024 07:54 aseq wrote:
Calm down, warrior. You're exactly the type of person I was talking about earlier. If Israel were purposely annihilating civilians, wouldn't they have gotten a lot further than <2% of the population by now? You don't believe the text messages and e-mails sent by Israel are an attempt to reduce casualties? Do you have any idea of how much goes wrong in any war?
And no, we don't need demonstrations for Israel, of course. But why only stand up for Palestine and not the Rohingya or Uyghur, Yemen, Congo? What is the reason you're so vocal about this group only? Or maybe it's not a coincidence, it's because you're against the Israeli rather than backing Palestine? Is it the popular leftist anti-zionism you support, not the "innocent Gazans" that voted Hamas into power and were dancing on the streets on the 7th of October?
"Nothing I have seen from Israel leads me to believe that they give a shit about the Palestinian's well being or seeing them as people." Unlike the Palestinians, who care for the Israeli deeply...I think this idea of keeping the stronger side to a different moral standard than the other partyhas been discussed in this thread before, but it's still relevant. If I had neighbours whose only goal in life it was to end me, I'd be out of sympathy pretty soon. They will bake their own bias into their point of course, so here we can see that aseq is very concerned with the innocence of Gazans, he'll put that in quotes to show that it's a lie and that in truth Gazans are not innocent, which presumably means that they deserve to get bombed I assume. But that part won't be said, I'm probably uncharitable for reading that much into quotes, instead this post is about asking the same questions over and over pretending that they haven't been answered, because this isn't really a conversation, this is just stalling.
Nah, I put it in quotes because the guy before me said it. He phrased it like there is a clear distinction between innocent Gazans and Hamas-sympathizers, which there isn't. These guys have been at war with Israel all their life...it's no surprise they're not neutral. But what do you mean by stalling...you have a solution that we should be working towards (long term, preferably)?
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EPT
