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On August 19 2024 06:58 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2024 03:49 PremoBeats wrote:
@Magic Powers
Which pretense, Magic? I literally quoted it. You said exactly what I said you said, and you denied it as if I couldn't quote your exact words. Now that I quoted them, you ask again what I'm talking about even though it's right in the quote. You don't know your own arguments because you forget them roughly ten minutes later, you gaslight people by pretending you didn't say words that are quoteable, and you think you're in the right while doing so. Your whole shtick is a complete waste of time. I haven't seen anyone else on this forum who trolls people so blatantly with absolutely zero signs of shame.
Eh, sorry, unpopular opinion, I agree with a lot of what Premo has said. It's about 2% deaths instead of 100% if the roles were reversed. It's about letting religious minorities live in your country or not. It's about targeting only civilians or not. Of course they have been driven into a corner. But there has never been any kind of negotiation possible, since the very start of the conflict.
I also can't understand for the life of me why there is so much sympathy globally for a people that not even other Arab countries want anything to do with, while for example the ethnic cleansing of Uyghur people is far more severe and extensive (and they're of the same religion).
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On August 19 2024 14:49 aseq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2024 06:58 Magic Powers wrote:On August 19 2024 03:49 PremoBeats wrote:
@Magic Powers
Which pretense, Magic? I literally quoted it. You said exactly what I said you said, and you denied it as if I couldn't quote your exact words. Now that I quoted them, you ask again what I'm talking about even though it's right in the quote. You don't know your own arguments because you forget them roughly ten minutes later, you gaslight people by pretending you didn't say words that are quoteable, and you think you're in the right while doing so. Your whole shtick is a complete waste of time. I haven't seen anyone else on this forum who trolls people so blatantly with absolutely zero signs of shame. Eh, sorry, unpopular opinion, I agree with a lot of what Premo has said. It's about 2% deaths instead of 100% if the roles were reversed. It's about letting religious minorities live in your country or not. It's about targeting only civilians or not. Of course they have been driven into a corner. But there has never been any kind of negotiation possible, since the very start of the conflict. I also can't understand for the life of me why there is so much sympathy globally for a people that not even other Arab countries want anything to do with, while for example the ethnic cleansing of Uyghur people is far more severe and extensive (and they're of the same religion).
Rohingya would have been a better example but that's fine. The main reason why that is the case is because nobody on this forum or anywhere else is interested in debating how much the Uyghurs or the Rohyngia deserve to be killed, so you wouldn't have anything to talk about.
Also of course my government doesn't support the killing of Uyghurs or Rohingya saying stuff like "China/Myanmar has a right to defend itself", so there's less that I can influence there.
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On August 19 2024 04:51 WombaT wrote:
What would the state of Israel do if, somehow the Jewish population ended up as a political minority?
Wasn't the Jewish population originally a minority in the region, so they drove out most of the natives at gunpoint? Bulldozed homes, destroyed cultural sites, and so forth? I'd expect more of that.
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On August 19 2024 14:49 aseq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2024 06:58 Magic Powers wrote:On August 19 2024 03:49 PremoBeats wrote:
@Magic Powers
Which pretense, Magic? I literally quoted it. You said exactly what I said you said, and you denied it as if I couldn't quote your exact words. Now that I quoted them, you ask again what I'm talking about even though it's right in the quote. You don't know your own arguments because you forget them roughly ten minutes later, you gaslight people by pretending you didn't say words that are quoteable, and you think you're in the right while doing so. Your whole shtick is a complete waste of time. I haven't seen anyone else on this forum who trolls people so blatantly with absolutely zero signs of shame. Eh, sorry, unpopular opinion, I agree with a lot of what Premo has said. It's about 2% deaths instead of 100% if the roles were reversed. It's about letting religious minorities live in your country or not. It's about targeting only civilians or not. Of course they have been driven into a corner. But there has never been any kind of negotiation possible, since the very start of the conflict. I also can't understand for the life of me why there is so much sympathy globally for a people that not even other Arab countries want anything to do with, while for example the ethnic cleansing of Uyghur people is far more severe and extensive (and they're of the same religion).
If you want to argue that X is ok because Y is worse, then you'll be having a very difficult time convincing me. Lets apply the reasoning consistently: Murdering ten people is not bad because murdering a hundred people is worse. Does that sound like good reasoning?
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Your analogy is false, because he's not arguing that. It's more like, sure, Israel is doing a bad thing, but why not also focus on this even worse thing? Why does only Palestine get this attention, while these other people almost get none, but are in equally dire situations, if not more so.
Or:
Murdering a million people is not ok, but my country condemns it and there's nothing more I can do (how is China or Myanmar sanctioned though)
Murdering 1000 people is not ok because my country isn't condemning it, but I do condemn it and ultimately would like my country to take action (at the very least condemn these actions).
The way Nebu reacted was fine, but I have a hard time knowing in what way Switzerland sanctions China or Myanmar?
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On August 19 2024 03:49 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2024 00:56 stilt wrote:On August 17 2024 23:36 PremoBeats wrote:
@stilt
My minister. Lol, this is so ridiculous.
So how are the Palestinian Arabs in Israel actually doing? Versus the Israelis in Palest... oh wait, there are none, cause they all got slaughtered.
Yup, being rushed to hospital CAN be a problem in some situations. Do you also accept that Israel takes in patients from Gaza and the West Bank when treatment there is not possible?
And I mean.. I already sad that horrible things and war crimes happened. You people don't have to list each and every one of them. I also explained how Israel is much more observed than the rest of the world as it is fighting a literal terrorist regime, where no one gives a shit at how brutal and sadistic they act all the time (Moynihan's Law).
Apartheid involved racial segregation along 8 groups depending on their skin color. Whites had more rights than blacks. There is no segregation in Israel. Every Israeli citizen has the same rights and Arab Muslims penetrate every layer of Israeli society. I gave an example before, where an Arab judge from the Israeli Supreme Court put a former Israeli PM in prison. If you truly think that this was somehow remotely possible in South Africa, you simply do not understand the severity of Apartheid.
Arab Muslims are in the police, the armer, the legal system, they can vote. They are everywhere. They are literally the only Arabs in the Middle East living in a functional democracy, lol.
@Gorsameth
Most refugee camps don't hide terrorists which shot rockets. Again. People put blame on Israel when the blame shut be put on Hamas.
@Nebuchad
Did I not accept your occupation argument for the sake of discussing this, although I disagree with it legally?
Did I not give reasonings why the occupation is necessary?
@Magic Powers
Shall I also only talk in loaded language? I mean... do you all really think that this is productive?
Because how is Israel imprisoning them? Can't these Palestinians leave the area through other countries?
Starving them? You mean the Israeli humanitarian aid that is intercepted by Hamas?
The moment I came here I was accused of bias or prejudice simply for stating my opinion without asking for my reasons.
None of you has so far acknowledged the hundred of thousands to millions of text messages, calls, pamphlets, TV and radio transmissions as well as shielding civilians from Hamas fire.
The humanitarian aid Israel is providing. The water, electricity, the treatment of patients. I acknowledged each and every evil doing of Israel that was put up and could be backed up by facts. And I am the one with bias? Ok.
Well, I am done for today.. see you guys on Sunday.
You didn't address the killing children without any repercussions. Discrimination on law which assure the superiority based on a religion is an apartheid. I mean, I am not gonna repeat myself, arab israeli are subject to an extreme racism coming from every side of the society, scholars, humoristsw politians, there are poorest sidenof it and of course this population is under heavy surveillance. Only die-hard israeli supporters can state that being super discriminated is so much better than living your life elsewhere. Restriction of movement based on a ethnie is apartheird as well, restriction of water as well, which happens in the west bank. Arabs were slaughtered in 1948, not the other ways around, some palestinian factions fought, lost and got slaughtered. Village's population like deir yassin's one has been annihlated. It is the most famous exemple but not the biggest actually. Survivors of massacres like the ones at lod were (already !) confined to a ghetto. In the end, 700000 fled, around 30k were killed, from a population fo 1.3m, that's a ethnic cleansing. I would like to point out as well that palestinians never got a democratic representation, never the un at the time and even less the british mandate give them the choice of their representants and of their wishes at the time. They were just supposed to be replaced by a stronger race as churchill stated. Anyway, back to today, Israel as an invader is supposed to provide this aid but it is largely finanzed by UN and ngo which according to israeli is "hamas". Hence they are putting gaza under blocus provoking starvation and sickness, polio has just been identified on a 10 months old. @Nebuchad So do you deny the constant attacks out of the occupied regions? Which was the reason they were occupied in the first place? And that if Israel leaves now they have to re-take the occupied zones again which will lead to even more blood shed? @Magic Powers Which pretense, Magic? You said that the Palestinians are imprisoned. I simply pointed out that they are not, as they are not surrounded by Israel borders. But if I misunderstood you: What did you mean with this: "imprisoning them in Palestinian land" Because I have an issue with loaded, untrue language like that, as it makes it easier to vilify factions. And as you never truly answered these, I will repost them: If ending the war is preventing casualties and a hypothetical goal of Israel is the ethnic cleansing of Gaza, which would result in the least amount of possible deaths in the future: Shouldn't they go for it, similar to the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki by the USA which led to fewer casualties on both sides than an invasion? I state it now: I don't think it is helpful in regards to ending this conflict to look at borders from 80 years ago. But as you opened up this book: Who did the land belong to before Israel declared independence? You wrote to another person: "If you ask the question how Israel should be expected to tolerate being attacked, you should ask the same question back to Palestinians. How should Palestinians be expected to tolerate this war and all the other previous attacks from Israel?" I simply have to ask you: Isn't all the aggression of invasion, rockets and attacks of civilians since decades coming out of Palestine first? When did Israel launch any attack or aggression at Palestine after not being provoked beforehand? Israel is always responding. Do you really think they would have attacked if October 7th never happened? Do you think any of the former aggressions by Israel were unfounded? Palestine is the attacking side since decades... seriously don't you see this as an obvious fact? I am not saying that Israel is holy and nothing they do is wrong as there is plenty of evidence of their wrongdoings (as they are rightfully held more accountable as a parliamentary democracy than a terrorist regime as well as Moynihan's Law) but if there was partition plan on the table tomorrow it is obvious who would deny it and launch rockets simply because of hatred and anti-semitism. The Israelis don't give a fuck about this war. They are at peace with most countries that attacked them after independence. @stilt How didn't I? I said multiple times that I think Israel should be held accountable for all war crimes. What exactly do you mean with religious Apartheid? Are there laws in Israel directly targeting Muslims? Aren't they allowed to vote? What is your exact accusation? If you refer to the occupied zones: A military occupation is no Apartheid, especially when these zones have self governance/autonomy. So no Jews/Israelis were slaughtered in 1948? The roughly 6k killed Jews/Israelis in 1948 is a conspiracy? I mean, I can fully admit that the Arab casualty rate was 10k-15k. Can you admit the death of the Jews/Israelis? Yes, around 700k Palestinian Arabs were displaced. But so were 500k-800k Jews. I can fully admit the Arab displacement. Can you admit the Israeli one? Just to stick to the truth: Israel is performing a retaliatory invasion. What about this: Yup, being rushed to hospital CAN be a problem in some situations. Do you also accept that Israel takes in patients from Gaza and the West Bank when treatment there is not possible? Again, to everyone writing here: I can only say it again, that I think every Israeli civilian, officer, soldier, politician and the state itself needs to take responsibility for every crime/war crime and evil that has been done. I don't know how often I have to repeat it. But since I have been personally attacked from the minute I made counter-opinions and there don't seem to be any contradicting voices to the overall narrative most here have, it seems to me that this forum is an anti-Israeli echo chamber. People here refrain from making the smallest, most obvious concessions, so much that comical and utterly ridiculous back and forths have been produced. EDIT: @Ryzel... sorry, saw your post only after posting. Have to get back to you next week. Have a lot of work to do starting tomorrow and need to sleep.
You're not holding israel accountable of much. I suppose Khamas (the israeli way of saying hamas, pretty telling about the overwhelming israeli biais in the media) is hidden inside the fucking water reservoir with their diving gear hence the necessitt of destroying it. Or that 6yo hindi rahab was a dangerous terrorist and all those poor israeli citizen which are goofing around in gaza, how cute while their ministers call for the starvation of the population. Hamas health minister doesn't take in consideration the indirect deaths and doesn't have the mean to properly count anyway, between the corpses under the rubbles, the dead due to starvation, improper water, lack of medication and so on, the death toll is superior to the 2% of the population. Just like in many other war, the weapons are not necesseraly the deadliest. And you conveniently don't count the wounded.
I already stated why it is an apartheid but you choose to ignore it because "it is an occupation" which lasts since 1/2 century by the way, you have a system which heavely discriminates a population against another with one having all the ressources and a right of death on the other.
This point is shared by the UN, amnesty and ofc the country which has been liberated from it : south africa and countless other major personnalities such as jimmy carter. I don't make the rule. That said, if you prefer the term "supremacist occupation" I give you that.
Even the israeli arab population in regard of having the nationality, the familial groupement and the favor of jewish population is considered under apartheid.
And about the operation... Yeah sure, palestinians should grateful to be "accepted" in a israeli hospital after a minutious inspection of their butthole. Without much a choice as it is excruciating to go elsewhere for them.
Gaza is under blocus from the israeli and egyptian side. And if the egyptian side opens it, his governement is renversed, al sissy has slaughtered his own citizen during his coup and let the democratically elected president rot in prison under the supervision of the us in order to have pro israeli policies. Same for Jordan where the bloody hashemite reign as pro israeli tyrant because their corrupt and autocratic regime is sponsored by us money. The advocate of israel like you who use the "israel is a democracy" argument are actually the same one which prevent democratic expression in those two countries as it wouldn't favor israeli interests.
Now back to 1948 :
Your number of 15k is underestimated, it comes obviously from pro zionist historian, prolly benny morris as he is the main reference in the west and even on fucking wikipedia. Let's see this character :
- Claim during a long interview the newspaper hareetz in 2004 that ben gourion indeed favored and organized a ethnic cleansing.
- accuse ben gourion of... Not going far enough.
- State that the israeli state must be ready for another "transfert" of its israeli arab population outside of it aka be ready for another ethnic cleansing.
- A few years later, claim that ethnic cleansing in 1948 actually never happened without advancing anything new, the guy going full blow negationist.
- Claim in 2006 I think that the reason why the israeli arab population is so targeted by criminality is because arab are intrasecally barbaric.
- Claim that arab historian don't find the same things as him because they don't live in a democracy (even the ones who works in the west I suppose ?). The same one claims that arab sources are for the most part trustworthy, I guess it explains everything.
- Claim that jewish israeli historian which uses arab sources and have unveiled the atrocities of the nakba and actually counted around 30k deaths (avi schlaim, ilan pape) are antisemits.
Dear Netanyahou has closed the access to numerous archives about this era btw.
So, yeah, I don't entierely fault you as the mainstream historian about the nakba is a supremacist, after all, the history review of the shoah under the direction of bensoussan has became first and foremost a antimuslim journal.
- no idea how 500 to 800k jew can't be displaced while palestine had barely 700k jew during the time.
Or maybe you're counting the whole jewish immigration in the arab world which is pretty disingenuous.
Firstly that's quite a whatanoutism.
Secundly, it occured over a decade. Thirdly I don't speak about yemen and iraq as I don't know much but the jewish immigration is loosely connected to the ethnic cleansing of the palestinians by the israeli in egypt or algeria. Not only they were nationalist and autocratic regime but the jews have been used by the colonizers as the locale elite such as the jew in algeria accessed to french citizenship in 1870 while muslim arabs remained with the indigenous status. So when independance comes, the arab jews had to flee as well as the rest of the french.
Lastly, indeed, an evil isn't excused by another, especially retroactively so I don't get why you're bringing this alongside the nakba.
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On August 19 2024 18:58 Uldridge wrote:
Your analogy is false, because he's not arguing that. It's more like, sure, Israel is doing a bad thing, but why not also focus on this even worse thing? Why does only Palestine get this attention, while these other people almost get none, but are in equally dire situations, if not more so.
Or:
Murdering a million people is not ok, but my country condemns it and there's nothing more I can do (how is China or Myanmar sanctioned though)
Murdering 1000 people is not ok because my country isn't condemning it, but I do condemn it and ultimately would like my country to take action (at the very least condemn these actions).
The way Nebu reacted was fine, but I have a hard time knowing in what way Switzerland sanctions China or Myanmar?
My analogy works perfectly, because we ARE focusing on both Israel and Hamas. People have condemned Hamas plenty, and pretending that this isn't the case is being disingenuous to the utmost degree.
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No one combs through 307 pages of discussion to try and find a condemnation of Hamas though. It's difficult knowing your position as a new contributor when there's been so mucb history. And it's unreasonable for people to preface all their positions every time someone news enters.
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On August 19 2024 19:14 Uldridge wrote:
No one combs through 307 pages of discussion to try and find a condemnation of Hamas though. It's difficult knowing your position as a new contributor when there's been so mucb history. And it's unreasonable for people to preface all their positions every time someone news enters.
I didn't expect such a quick response, so I edited my comment to address that exact point before I saw your response. I'll put it in this comment instead:
If you get the impression that Israel is receiving way more flack, that's because there's a controversy. People on one side argue that Israel is doing nothing wrong. No one is arguing that Hamas did nothing wrong. I've read roughly 90% of the comments in this thread since October 7, and there is no controversy around Hamas. Everyone condemns them, and they've been condemned plenty of times despite there not being any need to because it's uncontroversial.
So the controversy of Israel's actions may create the impression in some people (who haven't seen the many condemnations of Hamas) that the focus is entirely on Israel when in reality that is absolutely not the case at all.
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On August 19 2024 18:58 Uldridge wrote:
The way Nebu reacted was fine, but I have a hard time knowing in what way Switzerland sanctions China or Myanmar?
Tbh Switzerland is so uninteresting that for those types of issues I feel like my country is "The West" or something like that.
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On August 19 2024 18:58 Uldridge wrote:
Your analogy is false, because he's not arguing that. It's more like, sure, Israel is doing a bad thing, but why not also focus on this even worse thing? Why does only Palestine get this attention, while these other people almost get none, but are in equally dire situations, if not more so.
Or:
Murdering a million people is not ok, but my country condemns it and there's nothing more I can do (how is China or Myanmar sanctioned though)
Murdering 1000 people is not ok because my country isn't condemning it, but I do condemn it and ultimately would like my country to take action (at the very least condemn these actions).
The way Nebu reacted was fine, but I have a hard time knowing in what way Switzerland sanctions China or Myanmar?
Myanmar has been under financial sanction by the eu and us and no weapons can be exported there. Same for china actually, they don't enjoy our diplomatic support neither do we provide them weapons.
Israel on ther other hand is heavely supplied in weapon by both the us and germany while enjoying a gigantic diplomatic support during the genocide they're committing.
And ofc the repression on palestine advocate is going strong.
So yeah, absolutly nothing in common, your whaboutism is really weak.
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On August 19 2024 19:16 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2024 19:14 Uldridge wrote:
No one combs through 307 pages of discussion to try and find a condemnation of Hamas though. It's difficult knowing your position as a new contributor when there's been so mucb history. And it's unreasonable for people to preface all their positions every time someone news enters. I didn't expect such a quick response, so I edited my comment to address that exact point before I saw your response. I'll put it in this comment instead: If you get the impression that Israel is receiving way more flack, that's because there's a controversy. People on one side argue that Israel is doing nothing wrong. No one is arguing that Hamas did nothing wrong. I've read roughly 90% of the comments in this thread since October 7, and there is no controversy around Hamas. Everyone condemns them, and they've been condemned plenty of times despite there not being any need to because it's uncontroversial. So the controversy of Israel's actions may create the impression in some people (who haven't seen the many condemnations of Hamas) that the focus is entirely on Israel when in reality that is absolutely not the case at all.
People who are opposed to you understand the reasons why you argue your opinions though. They disagree with you about the legitimacy of how Israel can conduct themselves.
I can imagine it being quit difficult to finally being given a piece of (contested - can be argued) land to settle on and to build an internally peaceful and prosperous society and all the surrounding countries have tried to do is completely eradicate you.
Sadly Palestine, or until they became united under that taxon, the people who lived in that region, took the brunt of the Zionist machine (not without their own instigations or retalliations though) and thus became a disenfranchised people.
I can condemn Israel but I can also defend their plight. They have a fucking defense structure to shoot rockets out of sky aimed at them, like how surreal is that to have standing in your own backyard.
At the same time it's horrible Palestinians need to be quenched like this because they're basically a pawn in the entire ordeal (Iran, Israel, Hezbollah, Hamas axes of conflict). I have no clue what all the players involved actually are but it woiuldn't surprise me there's shadow funding all over the place for different organisations to eradicate Israel still. How do you conduct yourself in the best way possible in such a hostile area?
Is the existence of Israel a legitimate claim? If the neighboring countries can't accept that, how do we get to a peaceful situation?
Does Israel get to aggressively try to carve out land for itself to make itself a more prosperous nation? Maybe. Depends on how humane they can do it. There have been accounts of Israelites buying land from Palestinians in the past. Forceful ejection is not what I want to see, but from where I'm sitting (very comfortably) the only thing I see is that they are in between a rock and a hard place and they're forcing the Palestinians in an impossible situation (with them). I don't know anymore, I'm rambling. This geopolitical situation is a circular argument irl.
On August 19 2024 19:26 stilt wrote:
Myanmar has been under financial sanction by the eu and us and no weapons can be exported there. Same for china actually, they don't enjoy our diplomatic support neither do we provide them weapons.
Israel on ther other hand is heavely supplied in weapon by both the us and germany while enjoying a gigantic diplomatic support during the genocide they're committing.
And ofc the repression on palestine advocate is going strong.
So yeah, absolutly nothing in common, your whaboutism is really weak.
My whataboutism stems from the fact we don't have 300+ pages discussing Myanmar or China.
China may not have diplomatic support, our economic entanglement is very wide and deep. If that is not a form of diplomatic alignment (hey, let's trade on every level possible, except maybe weapons), that's just bullshit to me.
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What the hell is Blinken on about?
Last opportunity to get hostages out?
Hamas literally said YESTERDAY that any progress that is indicated by the US is an illusion.
They don't want peace and aren't going to negotiate.
I don't know what opportunity Blinken sees that Hamas don't.
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On August 19 2024 14:49 aseq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2024 06:58 Magic Powers wrote:On August 19 2024 03:49 PremoBeats wrote:
@Magic Powers
Which pretense, Magic? I literally quoted it. You said exactly what I said you said, and you denied it as if I couldn't quote your exact words. Now that I quoted them, you ask again what I'm talking about even though it's right in the quote. You don't know your own arguments because you forget them roughly ten minutes later, you gaslight people by pretending you didn't say words that are quoteable, and you think you're in the right while doing so. Your whole shtick is a complete waste of time. I haven't seen anyone else on this forum who trolls people so blatantly with absolutely zero signs of shame. Eh, sorry, unpopular opinion, I agree with a lot of what Premo has said. It's about 2% deaths instead of 100% if the roles were reversed. It's about letting religious minorities live in your country or not. It's about targeting only civilians or not. Of course they have been driven into a corner. But there has never been any kind of negotiation possible, since the very start of the conflict. I also can't understand for the life of me why there is so much sympathy globally for a people that not even other Arab countries want anything to do with, while for example the ethnic cleansing of Uyghur people is far more severe and extensive (and they're of the same religion).
I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to imply here. Obviously no one is thrilled about taking in an entire people, and said people don't exactly want to leave their home. For example, if Israel was located in Canada, I doubt America would be willing to host the Canadian population, but no one would suggest that says anything about the Canadian people.
I know generally speaking when people say this, they're trying to both ways it by implying all Arabs are the same (hence whats the deal with moving Palestinians) while at the same time Palestinians are untouchables. The obvious aim being to continue the dehumanization of the Palestinian people as committing atrocity is easier on animals. Doubtless you had more innocent intentions.
You are correct that Palestine has become overly propagandized compared to Yemen or Rohingya etc. That doesn't make it any less worthy a cause to worry about, but those other atrocities also need a voice.
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On August 19 2024 19:39 Uldridge wrote:
My whataboutism stems from the fact we don't have 300+ pages discussing Myanmar or China.
China may not have diplomatic support, our economic entanglement is very wide and deep. If that is not a form of diplomatic alignment (hey, let's trade on every level possible, except maybe weapons), that's just bullshit to me.
The other issue with this line of thought is that if we accept the validity of the argument then the correct thing to do is to react to both of those situations. But invariably the person who is talking about the other genocides is doing so because they want us to shut up about this one as well. It's brought up in defense of Israel, not in defense of the other groups that are wronged; and that just doesn't work logically, on top of being questionable morally.
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Show nested quote +On August 19 2024 19:39 Uldridge wrote:On August 19 2024 19:16 Magic Powers wrote:On August 19 2024 19:14 Uldridge wrote:
No one combs through 307 pages of discussion to try and find a condemnation of Hamas though. It's difficult knowing your position as a new contributor when there's been so mucb history. And it's unreasonable for people to preface all their positions every time someone news enters. I didn't expect such a quick response, so I edited my comment to address that exact point before I saw your response. I'll put it in this comment instead: If you get the impression that Israel is receiving way more flack, that's because there's a controversy. People on one side argue that Israel is doing nothing wrong. No one is arguing that Hamas did nothing wrong. I've read roughly 90% of the comments in this thread since October 7, and there is no controversy around Hamas. Everyone condemns them, and they've been condemned plenty of times despite there not being any need to because it's uncontroversial. So the controversy of Israel's actions may create the impression in some people (who haven't seen the many condemnations of Hamas) that the focus is entirely on Israel when in reality that is absolutely not the case at all. People who are opposed to you understand the reasons why you argue your opinions though. They disagree with you about the legitimacy of how Israel can conduct themselves. I can imagine it being quit difficult to finally being given a piece of (contested - can be argued) land to settle on and to build an internally peaceful and prosperous society and all the surrounding countries have tried to do is completely eradicate you. Sadly Palestine, or until they became united under that taxon, the people who lived in that region, took the brunt of the Zionist machine (not without their own instigations or retalliations though) and thus became a disenfranchised people. I can condemn Israel but I can also defend their plight. They have a fucking defense structure to shoot rockets out of sky aimed at them, like how surreal is that to have standing in your own backyard. At the same time it's horrible Palestinians need to be quenched like this because they're basically a pawn in the entire ordeal (Iran, Israel, Hezbollah, Hamas axes of conflict). I have no clue what all the players involved actually are but it woiuldn't surprise me there's shadow funding all over the place for different organisations to eradicate Israel still. How do you conduct yourself in the best way possible in such a hostile area? Is the existence of Israel a legitimate claim? If the neighboring countries can't accept that, how do we get to a peaceful situation? Does Israel get to aggressively try to carve out land for itself to make itself a more prosperous nation? Maybe. Depends on how humane they can do it. There have been accounts of Israelites buying land from Palestinians in the past. Forceful ejection is not what I want to see, but from where I'm sitting (very comfortably) the only thing I see is that they are in between a rock and a hard place and they're forcing the Palestinians in an impossible situation (with them). I don't know anymore, I'm rambling. This geopolitical situation is a circular argument irl. On August 19 2024 19:26 stilt wrote:
Myanmar has been under financial sanction by the eu and us and no weapons can be exported there. Same for china actually, they don't enjoy our diplomatic support neither do we provide them weapons.
Israel on ther other hand is heavely supplied in weapon by both the us and germany while enjoying a gigantic diplomatic support during the genocide they're committing.
And ofc the repression on palestine advocate is going strong.
So yeah, absolutly nothing in common, your whaboutism is really weak. My whataboutism stems from the fact we don't have 300+ pages discussing Myanmar or China. China may not have diplomatic support, our economic entanglement is very wide and deep. If that is not a form of diplomatic alignment (hey, let's trade on every level possible, except maybe weapons), that's just bullshit to me. Show nested quote +On August 19 2024 19:26 stilt wrote:
Myanmar has been under financial sanction by the eu and us and no weapons can be exported there. Same for china actually, they don't enjoy our diplomatic support neither do we provide them weapons.
Israel on ther other hand is heavely supplied in weapon by both the us and germany while enjoying a gigantic diplomatic support during the genocide they're committing.
And ofc the repression on palestine advocate is going strong.
So yeah, absolutly nothing in common, your whaboutism is really weak. My whataboutism stems from the fact we don't have 300+ pages discussing Myanmar or China. China may not have diplomatic support, our economic entanglement is very wide and deep. If that is not a form of diplomatic alignment (hey, let's trade on every level possible, except maybe weapons), that's just bullshit to me.
Sure buddy, we have 300 pages because it is a western country heavely supplied in weapons by the rest of the west which enjoys a massive diplomatic and financial support by the west and in which palestinians advocates are repressed.
An economic entanglement is not a form of diplomatic alignment indeed but a codependance. It is a forced situation the west and especially the us is trying to get away.
Funny as you don't mention the diplomatic, export and financial sanction against myanmar anymore.
As I said, your whatanoutism is extremely weak.
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On August 19 2024 19:39 Uldridge wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2024 19:16 Magic Powers wrote:On August 19 2024 19:14 Uldridge wrote:
No one combs through 307 pages of discussion to try and find a condemnation of Hamas though. It's difficult knowing your position as a new contributor when there's been so mucb history. And it's unreasonable for people to preface all their positions every time someone news enters. I didn't expect such a quick response, so I edited my comment to address that exact point before I saw your response. I'll put it in this comment instead: If you get the impression that Israel is receiving way more flack, that's because there's a controversy. People on one side argue that Israel is doing nothing wrong. No one is arguing that Hamas did nothing wrong. I've read roughly 90% of the comments in this thread since October 7, and there is no controversy around Hamas. Everyone condemns them, and they've been condemned plenty of times despite there not being any need to because it's uncontroversial. So the controversy of Israel's actions may create the impression in some people (who haven't seen the many condemnations of Hamas) that the focus is entirely on Israel when in reality that is absolutely not the case at all. People who are opposed to you understand the reasons why you argue your opinions though. They disagree with you about the legitimacy of how Israel can conduct themselves. I can imagine it being quit difficult to finally being given a piece of (contested - can be argued) land to settle on and to build an internally peaceful and prosperous society and all the surrounding countries have tried to do is completely eradicate you. Sadly Palestine, or until they became united under that taxon, the people who lived in that region, took the brunt of the Zionist machine (not without their own instigations or retalliations though) and thus became a disenfranchised people. I can condemn Israel but I can also defend their plight. They have a fucking defense structure to shoot rockets out of sky aimed at them, like how surreal is that to have standing in your own backyard. At the same time it's horrible Palestinians need to be quenched like this because they're basically a pawn in the entire ordeal (Iran, Israel, Hezbollah, Hamas axes of conflict). I have no clue what all the players involved actually are but it woiuldn't surprise me there's shadow funding all over the place for different organisations to eradicate Israel still. How do you conduct yourself in the best way possible in such a hostile area? Is the existence of Israel a legitimate claim? If the neighboring countries can't accept that, how do we get to a peaceful situation? Does Israel get to aggressively try to carve out land for itself to make itself a more prosperous nation? Maybe. Depends on how humane they can do it. There have been accounts of Israelites buying land from Palestinians in the past. Forceful ejection is not what I want to see, but from where I'm sitting (very comfortably) the only thing I see is that they are in between a rock and a hard place and they're forcing the Palestinians in an impossible situation (with them). I don't know anymore, I'm rambling. This geopolitical situation is a circular argument irl. Show nested quote +On August 19 2024 19:26 stilt wrote:
Myanmar has been under financial sanction by the eu and us and no weapons can be exported there. Same for china actually, they don't enjoy our diplomatic support neither do we provide them weapons.
Israel on ther other hand is heavely supplied in weapon by both the us and germany while enjoying a gigantic diplomatic support during the genocide they're committing.
And ofc the repression on palestine advocate is going strong.
So yeah, absolutly nothing in common, your whaboutism is really weak. My whataboutism stems from the fact we don't have 300+ pages discussing Myanmar or China. China may not have diplomatic support, our economic entanglement is very wide and deep. If that is not a form of diplomatic alignment (hey, let's trade on every level possible, except maybe weapons), that's just bullshit to me.
I can actually agree with most of what you said, there's just the underlined part that I can't wrap my head around.
"Does Israel get to aggressively try to carve out land for itself to make itself a more prosperous nation? Maybe. Depends on how humane they can do it."
No, not maybe. Not even "humanely". Israel has enough land, it's time for Palestinians to receive their land back and get a state with its own infrastructure, functioning government, law, police force, military, and everything else that a proper country is expected to have. It's time for Israel to stop. And for the hundredth time, it's also time for Palestinians to stop being violent. Realistically this will be a very long process and some violence is expected to continue for many decades. But over time it can be reduced. What Israel's administration is doing right now is the opposite of that. More aggressive land grabs, more escalation of the conflict, and less will to compromise. Israel is doing the opposite of what's required, their powerful players (including anti-Palestinian extremists) are actively undermining the peace process and instead pushing for more war and more oppression. How is it acceptable that Western countries actively support this monetarily and morally? There's no way this is in line with our supposed (!) values.
Though I do want to say again, the majority of your comment rubs me the right way. I don't want to make an elephant out of a single point of contention, you're obviously thinking about the problem way more rationally than Premo.
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On August 19 2024 19:59 stilt wrote:
Sure buddy, we have 300 pages because it is a western country heavely supplied in weapons by the rest of the west which enjoys a massive diplomatic and financial support by the west and in which palestinians advocates are repressed.
An economic entanglement is not a form of diplomatic alignment indeed but a codependance. It is a forced situation the west and especially the us is trying to get away.
Funny as you don't mention the diplomatic, export and financial sanction against myanmar anymore.
As I said, your whatanoutism is extremely weak.
I don't know anything about Myanmar is I refrain from talking about it. I'm not afraid or whatever. I'm not the bad actor you're implying me to be. I'm simply very ignorant and trying to get every perspective here. Keep your hostility in your pants, thanks.
@MP, the word aggressive was chosen wrongly in this context. It was more in the line of "fast" than "hostile", even though both can mean the same thing in certain contexts.
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On August 19 2024 20:21 Uldridge wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2024 19:59 stilt wrote:
Sure buddy, we have 300 pages because it is a western country heavely supplied in weapons by the rest of the west which enjoys a massive diplomatic and financial support by the west and in which palestinians advocates are repressed.
An economic entanglement is not a form of diplomatic alignment indeed but a codependance. It is a forced situation the west and especially the us is trying to get away.
Funny as you don't mention the diplomatic, export and financial sanction against myanmar anymore.
As I said, your whatanoutism is extremely weak.
I don't know anything about Myanmar is I refrain from talking about it. I'm not afraid or whatever. I'm not the bad actor you're implying me to be. I'm simply very ignorant and trying to get every perspective here. Keep your hostility in your pants, thanks. @MP, the word aggressive was chosen wrongly in this context. It was more in the line of "fast" than "hostile", even though both can mean the same thing in certain contexts.
Yeah I wasn't sure in which way you were using the word, thanks for clarifying. In either case I think Israel really doesn't need or deserve more land. If the aim is to create peace and stability, then they can make certain offers that would divide up land in a way that it serves the interests of Palestinians and Israelis at the same time with minimal displacement. If they equally consider Palestinian counter offers, that could be part of the progress towards lasting peace. Basically any attempt to take land just by itself will continue and worsen the conflict, but if it's packaged as a proposal for a peace deal then it could have a future.
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Hamas doesn't want peace.
Hamas doesn't want land.
Hamas doesn't care how many palestininans die, in fact they actually like civilian casaulities because their propaganda is working splendid on tons of people.
Hamas wants to kill all the jews and erradicate Israel.
Have fun finding an appropriate peace deal.
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EPT
