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Sweden5599 Posts
On August 23 2024 06:12 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2024 05:04 Elroi wrote:On August 23 2024 01:32 Jockmcplop wrote:On August 23 2024 01:29 Magic Powers wrote:On August 23 2024 01:07 Gorsameth wrote:On August 23 2024 00:55 Uldridge wrote:
Wait so when every country around you wants your people to stop existing, or at the very least the nation you live in, you're not in an existential conflict? And I'm not talking about the "people just think Israel shouldn't exist", I'm talking about the "launching rockets at you daily, attempting some terrorist attack every other year and us getting together every 20 to try and erase them from the map". Granted, it's been a while since there was a war, but no one can predict the future, especially now that Iran's been grandstanding for the last couple of months. Countries around Israel want them to stop existing, and launch missiles and fund terrorist attacks, but none of them can actually make good on that desire. Israel's actual existence hasn't been under threat since like the 6 day war. They are the dominant military power in the region, by a WIDE margin. Hezbollah, Hamas, Iran are no more an existential threat to Israel then Mexican drug cartels are an existential threat to the United States. I think we should start asking people to name countries/groups that they consider a real threat to Israel. If they name Iran/Hezbollah/Hamas, they immediately lose the argument. They are about as much threat to Israel as the protestors were to the tanks in Tiananmen Square. Easy to say when you have no skin in the game, but I guarantee the people in Israel doesn't feel that way. They are surrounded by hostile nations, including Hizbollah whose capacity is unknown but thought to be quite substantial (150 000 rockets, I think?). They just suffered an insanely murderous terror attack from Gaza and they have 100 000+ internal refugees because the northern part of the country is too dangerous to inhabit. I think there is a very real threat to the existence of the nation, even though Israel still has the upper hand in the conflict. I'm sure the drivers of the tanks were concerned about being surrounded by protestors too.
Maybe, but that would be irrational.
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On August 23 2024 00:15 Uldridge wrote:
I think it's strange that you can just imply someone is acting in bad faith, simply because he doesn't fit your world view, or looks at the accounts of what happens differently.
I don't have an issue with Premo because I don't think he is actually talking in bad faith, I think he simply feels like there's no sympathy - if you can even call it that - for a country that's fighting an existential battle in a very hostile environment and right now, sadly, the Palestinians are under their very heavy thumb because of a very very stupid action Hamas has performed on October 7. There should be some counterbalance in this thread, no?
The only facts are that facts are a nebulous thing. Parties tries to obfuscate or spin data for them to be seen in their favor. If scientists do this, you better believe ideologues will try to spin everything they can so they can seem favourably for them as well.
We know cultural relativism is a thing. We know we see things through a subjective lens. Saying there's only one possible synthesis by looking at the facts is silly imo. I won't end a discussion with someone because they contest me, I find that interesting, because there must something to agree on, no?
When he says he doesn't think it's ok to kill Palestinians, you can just dismiss that because his ultimate conclusions differ from yours? You'll probably counter with an analogy in the realm of "an alcoholic can also say he's not an alcoholic, but his breath surely reveals what he truly is", only this time it's more insidious, because the talking points reveal something much more horrible: on the one hand he says it's not okay to kill Palestinians but on the other he's defending a nation that at the very least is ethnically cleansing Palestine!
I think it's a messy history with a lot of bad actors. Good intentions have eroded over a long time and people are now so jaded, so bitter, so cynical, so angry that it'll simply take a while before something constructive will take place.
I don't know what Israel's end goal is here. I think they want to secure their people some land and want safe land and will do a lot to take that, but to go so far as to extinguish a Palestinian people, I'm not convinced they will actually do. They've killed a lot of Gazans and will probably have tens of thousands - ultimately - perish before this entire ordeal is over, but if they can secure their land and severely dampen the terrorist groups and nations that want them to be eradicated, I think they'll stop being the aggressors.
For the Gazans, the outlook is a lot more bleak because they're caught in the perpetual cycle of repression. How do you get out of this kind of cycle of violence? Maybe if enough global support makes Israel reconsider violently trying to weed out Hamas and Hamas itself starts moderating you might have some stability in your area, but that seems like a pipedream for now. Maybe the current talks will make Israel ease up a bit. I surely hope they stop bombing 20 civilians for 1 probable Hamas operative.
@Uldridge
This thread is actually completely over it. The amount of straw maning including disgusting insinuations and allegations without any proof, evidence or facts is insane.
People aren't able to explain the numbers I gave or the general state of affairs and thus have to rely on underhanded rhetorical questions, straigh up denial of follow ups as well as the comical level of being unable to make the smallest of concessions/agreements and continuing misrepresentations or personal attacks.
@Nebuchad
I didn't convince you? That I never implied or stated that it is good to kill Palestinians? Although I said so several times? Although I pointed out on multiple occassions that Israel should be held responsible and accountable?
It is pretty telling that in your very first reply to me in this thread, you already came in with a pre-conclusion about my motives when you accused me of Islamophobia. And even back then, although I directly stated that religion doesn't have anything to do with it, you kept pushing me into this corner although I not once made any statement towards Islam or Muslims in general.
@Existential war
The overall sentiment that Israel isn't fighting an existential war when several nations, one of which is fairly close to having nuclear weapons, want Israel to be wiped of the face of this planet is absurd to me. It is a safe haven for jews all around the world (which was one of the considerations for its establishment in the first place), not even mentioning the several million people living there.
Of course you are in an existential war, when your close neighbours want your country gone.
The perception of an existential threat doesn't necessarily depend on the balance of military or economic power but rather on the nature of the threats a country perceives and the intentions of its adversaries (which deny its existance or openly call for its destruction).
Asymmetric warfare, psychological and political dimensions as well as historic context (all which apply here) can pose existential crises.
An existential war is a war for existence and when your existance is denied you have to fight for it, especially when you are facing constant attacks, which Israel does.
@Land for the Palestinian people
As some have implied here: I am not against the idea that the Palestinians get a country of their own. But security concers by neighbouring states (not only Israel) have to be taken account. There probably needs to be a confederation for the West Bank with Jordan and of Gaza with Egypt where they and Israel have supervising functions.
For this to happen, Israel needs to reverse the settlements in non-Israeli borders.
Gaza and the West Bank have to be completely de-militarized and a re-work of the educational content for future generations needs to take place for a suffcient amount of time. For all I care, let them teach their side of the history, but get rid of all genocidal state sponsored educational content, TV-shows, broadcasts, board games and lectures. The same holds true for Israel.
If Palestine can be created by accepting Israel's existance all is good, although there are still extremely tough questions as reparations and East-Jerusalem among others that need to be addressed.
But at the moment, we don't need another state that is denying Israel's existance and calls for its destruction in my opinion.
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On August 23 2024 16:18 PremoBeats wrote:
@Nebuchad
I didn't convince you? That I never implied or stated that it is good to kill Palestinians? Although I said so several times? Although I pointed out on multiple occassions that Israel should be held responsible and accountable?
It is pretty telling that in your very first reply to me in this thread, you already came in with a pre-conclusion about my motives when you accused me of Islamophobia. And even back then, although I directly stated that religion doesn't have anything to do with it, you kept pushing me into this corner although I not once made any statement towards Islam or Muslims in general.
Why do you post this as if it's an accusation lol I've been writing the same thing several times now you don't have to uncover the hidden truth that I believe this, I've done that myself.
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On August 23 2024 16:54 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2024 16:18 PremoBeats wrote:
@Nebuchad
I didn't convince you? That I never implied or stated that it is good to kill Palestinians? Although I said so several times? Although I pointed out on multiple occassions that Israel should be held responsible and accountable?
It is pretty telling that in your very first reply to me in this thread, you already came in with a pre-conclusion about my motives when you accused me of Islamophobia. And even back then, although I directly stated that religion doesn't have anything to do with it, you kept pushing me into this corner although I not once made any statement towards Islam or Muslims in general.
Why do you post this as if it's an accusation lol I've been writing the same thing several times now you don't have to uncover the hidden truth that I believe this, I've done that myself.
I am literally asking it, because I don't understand. Does my position of having a slightly Israeli favored stance seem so unreasonable to you that it can only be explained by Islamophobia? I seriously don't get what it is, that makes you think that way, especially when I - the very exact person that the accusation is thrown at - is telling you that religion is not a big issue for me.
Or how you justify throwing out random accusations like me suppossedly being ok with killing Palestinians. I don't get it. Is it so unnatural to be appalled when having such an accusation thrown at you?
And wouldn't an apology or delivery of evidence of the accusation be the first thing one would want to provide after being called out?
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On August 23 2024 17:12 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2024 16:54 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 16:18 PremoBeats wrote:
@Nebuchad
I didn't convince you? That I never implied or stated that it is good to kill Palestinians? Although I said so several times? Although I pointed out on multiple occassions that Israel should be held responsible and accountable?
It is pretty telling that in your very first reply to me in this thread, you already came in with a pre-conclusion about my motives when you accused me of Islamophobia. And even back then, although I directly stated that religion doesn't have anything to do with it, you kept pushing me into this corner although I not once made any statement towards Islam or Muslims in general.
Why do you post this as if it's an accusation lol I've been writing the same thing several times now you don't have to uncover the hidden truth that I believe this, I've done that myself. I am literally asking it, because I don't understand. Does my position of having a slightly Israeli favored stance seem so unreasonable to you that it can only be explained by Islamophobia?
Yes
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On August 23 2024 17:24 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2024 17:12 PremoBeats wrote:On August 23 2024 16:54 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 16:18 PremoBeats wrote:
@Nebuchad
I didn't convince you? That I never implied or stated that it is good to kill Palestinians? Although I said so several times? Although I pointed out on multiple occassions that Israel should be held responsible and accountable?
It is pretty telling that in your very first reply to me in this thread, you already came in with a pre-conclusion about my motives when you accused me of Islamophobia. And even back then, although I directly stated that religion doesn't have anything to do with it, you kept pushing me into this corner although I not once made any statement towards Islam or Muslims in general.
Why do you post this as if it's an accusation lol I've been writing the same thing several times now you don't have to uncover the hidden truth that I believe this, I've done that myself. I am literally asking it, because I don't understand. Does my position of having a slightly Israeli favored stance seem so unreasonable to you that it can only be explained by Islamophobia? Yes
Ok.
And this?
How do you justify throwing out random accusations like me suppossedly being ok with killing Palestinians? I don't get it. Is it so unnatural to be appalled when having such an accusation thrown at you?
And wouldn't an apology or delivery of evidence of the accusation be the first thing one would want to provide after being called out?
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On August 23 2024 17:43 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2024 17:24 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 17:12 PremoBeats wrote:On August 23 2024 16:54 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 16:18 PremoBeats wrote:
@Nebuchad
I didn't convince you? That I never implied or stated that it is good to kill Palestinians? Although I said so several times? Although I pointed out on multiple occassions that Israel should be held responsible and accountable?
It is pretty telling that in your very first reply to me in this thread, you already came in with a pre-conclusion about my motives when you accused me of Islamophobia. And even back then, although I directly stated that religion doesn't have anything to do with it, you kept pushing me into this corner although I not once made any statement towards Islam or Muslims in general.
Why do you post this as if it's an accusation lol I've been writing the same thing several times now you don't have to uncover the hidden truth that I believe this, I've done that myself. I am literally asking it, because I don't understand. Does my position of having a slightly Israeli favored stance seem so unreasonable to you that it can only be explained by Islamophobia? Yes Ok. And this? How do you justify throwing out random accusations like me suppossedly being ok with killing Palestinians? I don't get it. Is it so unnatural to be appalled when having such an accusation thrown at you? And wouldn't an apology or delivery of evidence of the accusation be the first thing one would want to provide after being called out?
I've posted several times why I make the accusation, more than once in detail (for example post #6174).
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On August 23 2024 17:49 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2024 17:43 PremoBeats wrote:On August 23 2024 17:24 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 17:12 PremoBeats wrote:On August 23 2024 16:54 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 16:18 PremoBeats wrote:
@Nebuchad
I didn't convince you? That I never implied or stated that it is good to kill Palestinians? Although I said so several times? Although I pointed out on multiple occassions that Israel should be held responsible and accountable?
It is pretty telling that in your very first reply to me in this thread, you already came in with a pre-conclusion about my motives when you accused me of Islamophobia. And even back then, although I directly stated that religion doesn't have anything to do with it, you kept pushing me into this corner although I not once made any statement towards Islam or Muslims in general.
Why do you post this as if it's an accusation lol I've been writing the same thing several times now you don't have to uncover the hidden truth that I believe this, I've done that myself. I am literally asking it, because I don't understand. Does my position of having a slightly Israeli favored stance seem so unreasonable to you that it can only be explained by Islamophobia? Yes Ok. And this? How do you justify throwing out random accusations like me suppossedly being ok with killing Palestinians? I don't get it. Is it so unnatural to be appalled when having such an accusation thrown at you? And wouldn't an apology or delivery of evidence of the accusation be the first thing one would want to provide after being called out? I've posted several times why I make the accusation, more than once in detail (for example post #6174).
Post #6174 doesn't mention me. You accused me of being ok with killing Palestinians when writing:
"We have a disagreement on whether it's good to kill Palestinians, you think it's good and I think it's bad."
So how do you uphold this accusation, when I not once said anything that implies that I am ok with killing Palestinians? Shall I say it yet another time? I don't think it is good to kill Palestinians.
Further: No other posts can be found where you explain why you think this accusation towards me can be justified in any way.
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On August 23 2024 18:25 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2024 17:49 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 17:43 PremoBeats wrote:On August 23 2024 17:24 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 17:12 PremoBeats wrote:On August 23 2024 16:54 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 16:18 PremoBeats wrote:
@Nebuchad
I didn't convince you? That I never implied or stated that it is good to kill Palestinians? Although I said so several times? Although I pointed out on multiple occassions that Israel should be held responsible and accountable?
It is pretty telling that in your very first reply to me in this thread, you already came in with a pre-conclusion about my motives when you accused me of Islamophobia. And even back then, although I directly stated that religion doesn't have anything to do with it, you kept pushing me into this corner although I not once made any statement towards Islam or Muslims in general.
Why do you post this as if it's an accusation lol I've been writing the same thing several times now you don't have to uncover the hidden truth that I believe this, I've done that myself. I am literally asking it, because I don't understand. Does my position of having a slightly Israeli favored stance seem so unreasonable to you that it can only be explained by Islamophobia? Yes Ok. And this? How do you justify throwing out random accusations like me suppossedly being ok with killing Palestinians? I don't get it. Is it so unnatural to be appalled when having such an accusation thrown at you? And wouldn't an apology or delivery of evidence of the accusation be the first thing one would want to provide after being called out? I've posted several times why I make the accusation, more than once in detail (for example post #6174). Post #6174 doesn't mention me. You accused me of being ok with killing Palestinians when writing: "We have a disagreement on whether it's good to kill Palestinians, you think it's good and I think it's bad." So how do you uphold this accusation, when I not once said anything that implies that I am ok with killing Palestinians? Shall I say it yet another time? I don't think it is good to kill Palestinians. Further: No other posts can be found where you explain why you think this accusation towards me can be justified in any way.
Oh sorry I've edited post 6174 and now it mentions you.
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On August 23 2024 19:05 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2024 18:25 PremoBeats wrote:On August 23 2024 17:49 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 17:43 PremoBeats wrote:On August 23 2024 17:24 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 17:12 PremoBeats wrote:On August 23 2024 16:54 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 16:18 PremoBeats wrote:
@Nebuchad
I didn't convince you? That I never implied or stated that it is good to kill Palestinians? Although I said so several times? Although I pointed out on multiple occassions that Israel should be held responsible and accountable?
It is pretty telling that in your very first reply to me in this thread, you already came in with a pre-conclusion about my motives when you accused me of Islamophobia. And even back then, although I directly stated that religion doesn't have anything to do with it, you kept pushing me into this corner although I not once made any statement towards Islam or Muslims in general.
Why do you post this as if it's an accusation lol I've been writing the same thing several times now you don't have to uncover the hidden truth that I believe this, I've done that myself. I am literally asking it, because I don't understand. Does my position of having a slightly Israeli favored stance seem so unreasonable to you that it can only be explained by Islamophobia? Yes Ok. And this? How do you justify throwing out random accusations like me suppossedly being ok with killing Palestinians? I don't get it. Is it so unnatural to be appalled when having such an accusation thrown at you? And wouldn't an apology or delivery of evidence of the accusation be the first thing one would want to provide after being called out? I've posted several times why I make the accusation, more than once in detail (for example post #6174). Post #6174 doesn't mention me. You accused me of being ok with killing Palestinians when writing: "We have a disagreement on whether it's good to kill Palestinians, you think it's good and I think it's bad." So how do you uphold this accusation, when I not once said anything that implies that I am ok with killing Palestinians? Shall I say it yet another time? I don't think it is good to kill Palestinians. Further: No other posts can be found where you explain why you think this accusation towards me can be justified in any way. Oh sorry I've edited post 6174 and now it mentions you.
Alright. I think it is obvious that you are not interested in discussing this in good faith because of these trolling replies.
Good day to you.
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On August 23 2024 19:10 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2024 19:05 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 18:25 PremoBeats wrote:On August 23 2024 17:49 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 17:43 PremoBeats wrote:On August 23 2024 17:24 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 17:12 PremoBeats wrote:On August 23 2024 16:54 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 16:18 PremoBeats wrote:
@Nebuchad
I didn't convince you? That I never implied or stated that it is good to kill Palestinians? Although I said so several times? Although I pointed out on multiple occassions that Israel should be held responsible and accountable?
It is pretty telling that in your very first reply to me in this thread, you already came in with a pre-conclusion about my motives when you accused me of Islamophobia. And even back then, although I directly stated that religion doesn't have anything to do with it, you kept pushing me into this corner although I not once made any statement towards Islam or Muslims in general.
Why do you post this as if it's an accusation lol I've been writing the same thing several times now you don't have to uncover the hidden truth that I believe this, I've done that myself. I am literally asking it, because I don't understand. Does my position of having a slightly Israeli favored stance seem so unreasonable to you that it can only be explained by Islamophobia? Yes Ok. And this? How do you justify throwing out random accusations like me suppossedly being ok with killing Palestinians? I don't get it. Is it so unnatural to be appalled when having such an accusation thrown at you? And wouldn't an apology or delivery of evidence of the accusation be the first thing one would want to provide after being called out? I've posted several times why I make the accusation, more than once in detail (for example post #6174). Post #6174 doesn't mention me. You accused me of being ok with killing Palestinians when writing: "We have a disagreement on whether it's good to kill Palestinians, you think it's good and I think it's bad." So how do you uphold this accusation, when I not once said anything that implies that I am ok with killing Palestinians? Shall I say it yet another time? I don't think it is good to kill Palestinians. Further: No other posts can be found where you explain why you think this accusation towards me can be justified in any way. Oh sorry I've edited post 6174 and now it mentions you. Alright. I think it is obvious that you are not interested in discussing this in good faith because of these trolling replies. Good day to you.
Good day to you too. If at a later date you want to adress the answer instead of waving it away with silly one-liners and dishonestly pretending that it doesn't exist, remember that it's in post 6174.
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On August 23 2024 19:17 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2024 19:10 PremoBeats wrote:On August 23 2024 19:05 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 18:25 PremoBeats wrote:On August 23 2024 17:49 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 17:43 PremoBeats wrote:On August 23 2024 17:24 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 17:12 PremoBeats wrote:On August 23 2024 16:54 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 16:18 PremoBeats wrote:
@Nebuchad
I didn't convince you? That I never implied or stated that it is good to kill Palestinians? Although I said so several times? Although I pointed out on multiple occassions that Israel should be held responsible and accountable?
It is pretty telling that in your very first reply to me in this thread, you already came in with a pre-conclusion about my motives when you accused me of Islamophobia. And even back then, although I directly stated that religion doesn't have anything to do with it, you kept pushing me into this corner although I not once made any statement towards Islam or Muslims in general.
Why do you post this as if it's an accusation lol I've been writing the same thing several times now you don't have to uncover the hidden truth that I believe this, I've done that myself. I am literally asking it, because I don't understand. Does my position of having a slightly Israeli favored stance seem so unreasonable to you that it can only be explained by Islamophobia? Yes Ok. And this? How do you justify throwing out random accusations like me suppossedly being ok with killing Palestinians? I don't get it. Is it so unnatural to be appalled when having such an accusation thrown at you? And wouldn't an apology or delivery of evidence of the accusation be the first thing one would want to provide after being called out? I've posted several times why I make the accusation, more than once in detail (for example post #6174). Post #6174 doesn't mention me. You accused me of being ok with killing Palestinians when writing: "We have a disagreement on whether it's good to kill Palestinians, you think it's good and I think it's bad." So how do you uphold this accusation, when I not once said anything that implies that I am ok with killing Palestinians? Shall I say it yet another time? I don't think it is good to kill Palestinians. Further: No other posts can be found where you explain why you think this accusation towards me can be justified in any way. Oh sorry I've edited post 6174 and now it mentions you. Alright. I think it is obvious that you are not interested in discussing this in good faith because of these trolling replies. Good day to you. Good day to you too. If at a later date you want to adress the answer instead of waving it away with silly one-liners and dishonestly pretending that it doesn't exist, remember that it's in post 6174.
Are you for real? After you evaded my follow ups and never replied to them multiple times or didn't want to discuss certain topics (not going further into the fact that the Arabs denied partition plans on several occasions, accusing me of being an Islamophob, accusing me of thinking it is good to kill Palestinians, not wanting to talk about uti possidetis juris) you now accuse me of replying with "silly one-liners" or not replying?
Nothing of what is written in 6174 mentions why the accusation that I am ok with killing Palestinians is validated. Nothing. There is nothing for me there to reply to. Please quote in that post how you justify that I think it is good to kill Palestinians?
I mean yes, there are completely absurd and unsubstantiated point of views in there, but that is not the question.
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On August 23 2024 19:28 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2024 19:17 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 19:10 PremoBeats wrote:On August 23 2024 19:05 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 18:25 PremoBeats wrote:On August 23 2024 17:49 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 17:43 PremoBeats wrote:On August 23 2024 17:24 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 17:12 PremoBeats wrote:On August 23 2024 16:54 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
Why do you post this as if it's an accusation lol I've been writing the same thing several times now you don't have to uncover the hidden truth that I believe this, I've done that myself. I am literally asking it, because I don't understand. Does my position of having a slightly Israeli favored stance seem so unreasonable to you that it can only be explained by Islamophobia? Yes Ok. And this? How do you justify throwing out random accusations like me suppossedly being ok with killing Palestinians? I don't get it. Is it so unnatural to be appalled when having such an accusation thrown at you? And wouldn't an apology or delivery of evidence of the accusation be the first thing one would want to provide after being called out? I've posted several times why I make the accusation, more than once in detail (for example post #6174). Post #6174 doesn't mention me. You accused me of being ok with killing Palestinians when writing: "We have a disagreement on whether it's good to kill Palestinians, you think it's good and I think it's bad." So how do you uphold this accusation, when I not once said anything that implies that I am ok with killing Palestinians? Shall I say it yet another time? I don't think it is good to kill Palestinians. Further: No other posts can be found where you explain why you think this accusation towards me can be justified in any way. Oh sorry I've edited post 6174 and now it mentions you. Alright. I think it is obvious that you are not interested in discussing this in good faith because of these trolling replies. Good day to you. Good day to you too. If at a later date you want to adress the answer instead of waving it away with silly one-liners and dishonestly pretending that it doesn't exist, remember that it's in post 6174. Are you for real? After you evaded my follow ups and never replied to them multiple times or didn't want to discuss certain topics (not going further into the fact that the Arabs denied partition plans on several occasions, accusing me of being an Islamophob, accusing me of thinking it is good to kill Palestinians, not wanting to talk about uti possidetis juris) you now accuse me of replying with "silly one-liners" or not replying? Nothing of what is written in 6174 mentions why the accusation that I am ok with killing Palestinians is validated. Nothing. There is nothing for me there to reply to. Please quote in that post how you justify that I think it is good to kill Palestinians? I mean yes, there are completely absurd and unsubstantiated point of views in there, but that is not the question.
The post is in its entirety an explanation of why I don't think that the arguments that I hear from people on your side are made in good faith, which is the question that you asked. That's me answering the question. You said "It doesn't mention me" and asked the same question again. The answer won't change. You pretending that I didn't answer isn't very interesting to me.
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On August 23 2024 19:39 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2024 19:28 PremoBeats wrote:On August 23 2024 19:17 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 19:10 PremoBeats wrote:On August 23 2024 19:05 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 18:25 PremoBeats wrote:On August 23 2024 17:49 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 17:43 PremoBeats wrote:On August 23 2024 17:24 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 17:12 PremoBeats wrote:
[quote]
I am literally asking it, because I don't understand. Does my position of having a slightly Israeli favored stance seem so unreasonable to you that it can only be explained by Islamophobia? Yes Ok. And this? How do you justify throwing out random accusations like me suppossedly being ok with killing Palestinians? I don't get it. Is it so unnatural to be appalled when having such an accusation thrown at you? And wouldn't an apology or delivery of evidence of the accusation be the first thing one would want to provide after being called out? I've posted several times why I make the accusation, more than once in detail (for example post #6174). Post #6174 doesn't mention me. You accused me of being ok with killing Palestinians when writing: "We have a disagreement on whether it's good to kill Palestinians, you think it's good and I think it's bad." So how do you uphold this accusation, when I not once said anything that implies that I am ok with killing Palestinians? Shall I say it yet another time? I don't think it is good to kill Palestinians. Further: No other posts can be found where you explain why you think this accusation towards me can be justified in any way. Oh sorry I've edited post 6174 and now it mentions you. Alright. I think it is obvious that you are not interested in discussing this in good faith because of these trolling replies. Good day to you. Good day to you too. If at a later date you want to adress the answer instead of waving it away with silly one-liners and dishonestly pretending that it doesn't exist, remember that it's in post 6174. Are you for real? After you evaded my follow ups and never replied to them multiple times or didn't want to discuss certain topics (not going further into the fact that the Arabs denied partition plans on several occasions, accusing me of being an Islamophob, accusing me of thinking it is good to kill Palestinians, not wanting to talk about uti possidetis juris) you now accuse me of replying with "silly one-liners" or not replying? Nothing of what is written in 6174 mentions why the accusation that I am ok with killing Palestinians is validated. Nothing. There is nothing for me there to reply to. Please quote in that post how you justify that I think it is good to kill Palestinians? I mean yes, there are completely absurd and unsubstantiated point of views in there, but that is not the question. The post is in its entirety an explanation of why I don't think that the arguments that I hear from people on your side are made in good faith, which is the question that you asked. That's me answering the question. You said "It doesn't mention me" and asked the same question again. The answer won't change. You pretending that I didn't answer isn't very interesting to me.
Not arguing in good faith and accusing others of "finding it good that a certain kind of people is killed" are completely different things. You can have the perception that I don't argue in good faith... that part doesn't bother me in the slightest as everyone can see the arguments I put forward and decide for themselves.
What I have an issue with is this accusation: "We have a disagreement on whether it's good to kill Palestinians, you think it's good and I think it's bad."
You accuse me of thinking that it is good to kill Palestinians without any proof or evidence and this is not ok. Accusing others of racism or Islamophobia without concrete evidence or even knowing another person speaks volumes about your point of view and the ability to differentiate.
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On August 23 2024 20:00 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2024 19:39 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 19:28 PremoBeats wrote:On August 23 2024 19:17 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 19:10 PremoBeats wrote:On August 23 2024 19:05 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 18:25 PremoBeats wrote:On August 23 2024 17:49 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 17:43 PremoBeats wrote:On August 23 2024 17:24 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
Yes Ok. And this? How do you justify throwing out random accusations like me suppossedly being ok with killing Palestinians? I don't get it. Is it so unnatural to be appalled when having such an accusation thrown at you? And wouldn't an apology or delivery of evidence of the accusation be the first thing one would want to provide after being called out? I've posted several times why I make the accusation, more than once in detail (for example post #6174). Post #6174 doesn't mention me. You accused me of being ok with killing Palestinians when writing: "We have a disagreement on whether it's good to kill Palestinians, you think it's good and I think it's bad." So how do you uphold this accusation, when I not once said anything that implies that I am ok with killing Palestinians? Shall I say it yet another time? I don't think it is good to kill Palestinians. Further: No other posts can be found where you explain why you think this accusation towards me can be justified in any way. Oh sorry I've edited post 6174 and now it mentions you. Alright. I think it is obvious that you are not interested in discussing this in good faith because of these trolling replies. Good day to you. Good day to you too. If at a later date you want to adress the answer instead of waving it away with silly one-liners and dishonestly pretending that it doesn't exist, remember that it's in post 6174. Are you for real? After you evaded my follow ups and never replied to them multiple times or didn't want to discuss certain topics (not going further into the fact that the Arabs denied partition plans on several occasions, accusing me of being an Islamophob, accusing me of thinking it is good to kill Palestinians, not wanting to talk about uti possidetis juris) you now accuse me of replying with "silly one-liners" or not replying? Nothing of what is written in 6174 mentions why the accusation that I am ok with killing Palestinians is validated. Nothing. There is nothing for me there to reply to. Please quote in that post how you justify that I think it is good to kill Palestinians? I mean yes, there are completely absurd and unsubstantiated point of views in there, but that is not the question. The post is in its entirety an explanation of why I don't think that the arguments that I hear from people on your side are made in good faith, which is the question that you asked. That's me answering the question. You said "It doesn't mention me" and asked the same question again. The answer won't change. You pretending that I didn't answer isn't very interesting to me. Not arguing in good faith and accusing others of "finding it good that a certain kind of people is killed" are completely different things. You can have the perception that I don't argue in good faith... that part doesn't bother me in the slightest as everyone can see the arguments I put forward and decide for themselves. What I have an issue with is this accusation: "We have a disagreement on whether it's good to kill Palestinians, you think it's good and I think it's bad." You accuse me of thinking that it is good to kill Palestinians without any proof or evidence and this is not ok.
As explained in post 6174, that's a simple logical connexion. In order to argue in bad faith in favor of Israel's effort to kill Palestinians, you would need to think that, for some reason, killing Palestinians is a good outcome. It's also a view that I must imagine is common, because muslims are dangerous and evil, so it logically follows that a lot of people would want to get rid of those dangerous, evil people. What do you reckon would be a better reason to use dishonest arguments to defend Israel as it kills Palestinians?
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I might come back to this thread when the troll is gone. We'll see how much patience he has, but if zeo and a_ch are indicators, it could take a lot longer than a few weeks or months. Enjoy your stay ya'll, I'm out.
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On August 23 2024 20:06 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2024 20:00 PremoBeats wrote:On August 23 2024 19:39 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 19:28 PremoBeats wrote:On August 23 2024 19:17 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 19:10 PremoBeats wrote:On August 23 2024 19:05 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 18:25 PremoBeats wrote:On August 23 2024 17:49 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 17:43 PremoBeats wrote:
[quote]
Ok.
And this?
How do you justify throwing out random accusations like me suppossedly being ok with killing Palestinians? I don't get it. Is it so unnatural to be appalled when having such an accusation thrown at you?
And wouldn't an apology or delivery of evidence of the accusation be the first thing one would want to provide after being called out? I've posted several times why I make the accusation, more than once in detail (for example post #6174). Post #6174 doesn't mention me. You accused me of being ok with killing Palestinians when writing: "We have a disagreement on whether it's good to kill Palestinians, you think it's good and I think it's bad." So how do you uphold this accusation, when I not once said anything that implies that I am ok with killing Palestinians? Shall I say it yet another time? I don't think it is good to kill Palestinians. Further: No other posts can be found where you explain why you think this accusation towards me can be justified in any way. Oh sorry I've edited post 6174 and now it mentions you. Alright. I think it is obvious that you are not interested in discussing this in good faith because of these trolling replies. Good day to you. Good day to you too. If at a later date you want to adress the answer instead of waving it away with silly one-liners and dishonestly pretending that it doesn't exist, remember that it's in post 6174. Are you for real? After you evaded my follow ups and never replied to them multiple times or didn't want to discuss certain topics (not going further into the fact that the Arabs denied partition plans on several occasions, accusing me of being an Islamophob, accusing me of thinking it is good to kill Palestinians, not wanting to talk about uti possidetis juris) you now accuse me of replying with "silly one-liners" or not replying? Nothing of what is written in 6174 mentions why the accusation that I am ok with killing Palestinians is validated. Nothing. There is nothing for me there to reply to. Please quote in that post how you justify that I think it is good to kill Palestinians? I mean yes, there are completely absurd and unsubstantiated point of views in there, but that is not the question. The post is in its entirety an explanation of why I don't think that the arguments that I hear from people on your side are made in good faith, which is the question that you asked. That's me answering the question. You said "It doesn't mention me" and asked the same question again. The answer won't change. You pretending that I didn't answer isn't very interesting to me. Not arguing in good faith and accusing others of "finding it good that a certain kind of people is killed" are completely different things. You can have the perception that I don't argue in good faith... that part doesn't bother me in the slightest as everyone can see the arguments I put forward and decide for themselves. What I have an issue with is this accusation: "We have a disagreement on whether it's good to kill Palestinians, you think it's good and I think it's bad." You accuse me of thinking that it is good to kill Palestinians without any proof or evidence and this is not ok. As explained in post 6176, that's a simple logical connexion. In order to argue in bad faith in favor of Israel's effort to kill Palestinians, you would need to think that, for some reason, killing Palestinians is a good outcome. It's also a view that I must imagine is common, because muslims are dangerous and evil, so it logically follows that a lot of people would want to get rid of those dangerous, evil people. What do you reckon would be a better reason to use dishonest arguments to defend Israel as it kills Palestinians?
But you make the assumption that people argue in "bad faith in favor of Israel's effort to kill Palestinians", while there can be numerous other reason why the killing of Palestinians (or more general: in war times) is seen as a necessary step.
One does not necessarily have to think it is a good thing to kill Palestinians to explain why innocent victims will occur. One can even add context like every death is horrible and that the civilian population shouldn't suffer as much. You are using a non sequitor fallacy as "killing Palestinians is a good thing" doesn't follow from "civilians being killed is sometimes unavoidable in war".
You also make assumptions about the beliefs ("muslims are dangerous and evil") and intent ("a lot of people would want to get rid of those dangerous, evil people") of other persons or groups without knowing their motives. You further use this generalized idea to attribute it to a specific person (in this case me), who told you most definitely that these accusation are not true. Here you use several hasty generalization fallacies as well as a straw man.
Well, a better reason would be the ones that have been made by me and others in this thread. Israel has one of the lowest soldier-to-civilian casualty ratios and is engaging in a responsive invasion. The absolute number of victims is so high because the terrorits are hiding in civilian infrastructure and safe zones.
@Magic Powers
It is definitely easier to name call than to actually address my latest questions in regards to the accusations you hurled at me as well as the questions that are unanswered (which no worries, I won't forget till your return). Have a nice day!
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On August 23 2024 20:23 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2024 20:06 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 20:00 PremoBeats wrote:On August 23 2024 19:39 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 19:28 PremoBeats wrote:On August 23 2024 19:17 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 19:10 PremoBeats wrote:On August 23 2024 19:05 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 18:25 PremoBeats wrote:On August 23 2024 17:49 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
I've posted several times why I make the accusation, more than once in detail (for example post #6174). Post #6174 doesn't mention me. You accused me of being ok with killing Palestinians when writing: "We have a disagreement on whether it's good to kill Palestinians, you think it's good and I think it's bad." So how do you uphold this accusation, when I not once said anything that implies that I am ok with killing Palestinians? Shall I say it yet another time? I don't think it is good to kill Palestinians. Further: No other posts can be found where you explain why you think this accusation towards me can be justified in any way. Oh sorry I've edited post 6174 and now it mentions you. Alright. I think it is obvious that you are not interested in discussing this in good faith because of these trolling replies. Good day to you. Good day to you too. If at a later date you want to adress the answer instead of waving it away with silly one-liners and dishonestly pretending that it doesn't exist, remember that it's in post 6174. Are you for real? After you evaded my follow ups and never replied to them multiple times or didn't want to discuss certain topics (not going further into the fact that the Arabs denied partition plans on several occasions, accusing me of being an Islamophob, accusing me of thinking it is good to kill Palestinians, not wanting to talk about uti possidetis juris) you now accuse me of replying with "silly one-liners" or not replying? Nothing of what is written in 6174 mentions why the accusation that I am ok with killing Palestinians is validated. Nothing. There is nothing for me there to reply to. Please quote in that post how you justify that I think it is good to kill Palestinians? I mean yes, there are completely absurd and unsubstantiated point of views in there, but that is not the question. The post is in its entirety an explanation of why I don't think that the arguments that I hear from people on your side are made in good faith, which is the question that you asked. That's me answering the question. You said "It doesn't mention me" and asked the same question again. The answer won't change. You pretending that I didn't answer isn't very interesting to me. Not arguing in good faith and accusing others of "finding it good that a certain kind of people is killed" are completely different things. You can have the perception that I don't argue in good faith... that part doesn't bother me in the slightest as everyone can see the arguments I put forward and decide for themselves. What I have an issue with is this accusation: "We have a disagreement on whether it's good to kill Palestinians, you think it's good and I think it's bad." You accuse me of thinking that it is good to kill Palestinians without any proof or evidence and this is not ok. As explained in post 6176, that's a simple logical connexion. In order to argue in bad faith in favor of Israel's effort to kill Palestinians, you would need to think that, for some reason, killing Palestinians is a good outcome. It's also a view that I must imagine is common, because muslims are dangerous and evil, so it logically follows that a lot of people would want to get rid of those dangerous, evil people. What do you reckon would be a better reason to use dishonest arguments to defend Israel as it kills Palestinians? But you make the assumption that people argue in "bad faith in favor of Israel's effort to kill Palestinians", while there can be numerous other reason why the killing of Palestinians (or more general: in war times) is seen as a necessary step. One does not necessarily have to think it is a good thing to kill Palestinians to explain why innocent victims will occur. One can even add context like every death is horrible and that the civilian population shouldn't suffer as much. You are using a non sequitor fallacy as "killing Palestinians is a good thing" doesn't follow from "civilians being killed is sometimes unavoidable in war". You also make assumptions about the beliefs ("muslims are dangerous and evil") and intent ("a lot of people would want to get rid of those dangerous, evil people") of other persons or groups without knowing their motives. You further use this generalized idea to attribute it to a specific person (in this case me), who told you most definitely that these accusation are not true. Here you use several hasty generalization fallacies as well as a straw man. Well, a better reason would be the ones that have been made by me and others in this thread. Israel has one of the lowest soldier-to-civilian casualty ratios and is engaging in a responsive invasion. The absolute number of victims is so high because the terrorits are hiding in civilian infrastructure and safe zones.
I agree, I make the assumption that someone who argues dishonestly in favor of Israel as it kills Palestinians does so because they think killing Palestinians is good. Once again, you don't need to uncover this hidden truth, I say so myself openly in post 6174 and in the post you're quoting. What you could be doing instead of doing that would be giving me a credible reason why someone would argue dishonestly in favor of Israel as it kills Palestinians that is not because they think killing Palestinians is good. You allude to those other reasons existing but you don't provide any example of them, even though that is literally the question I asked at the end of the post you're quoting.
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On August 23 2024 20:34 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2024 20:23 PremoBeats wrote:On August 23 2024 20:06 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 20:00 PremoBeats wrote:On August 23 2024 19:39 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 19:28 PremoBeats wrote:On August 23 2024 19:17 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 19:10 PremoBeats wrote:On August 23 2024 19:05 Nebuchad wrote:On August 23 2024 18:25 PremoBeats wrote:
[quote]
Post #6174 doesn't mention me. You accused me of being ok with killing Palestinians when writing:
"We have a disagreement on whether it's good to kill Palestinians, you think it's good and I think it's bad."
So how do you uphold this accusation, when I not once said anything that implies that I am ok with killing Palestinians? Shall I say it yet another time? I don't think it is good to kill Palestinians.
Further: No other posts can be found where you explain why you think this accusation towards me can be justified in any way. Oh sorry I've edited post 6174 and now it mentions you. Alright. I think it is obvious that you are not interested in discussing this in good faith because of these trolling replies. Good day to you. Good day to you too. If at a later date you want to adress the answer instead of waving it away with silly one-liners and dishonestly pretending that it doesn't exist, remember that it's in post 6174. Are you for real? After you evaded my follow ups and never replied to them multiple times or didn't want to discuss certain topics (not going further into the fact that the Arabs denied partition plans on several occasions, accusing me of being an Islamophob, accusing me of thinking it is good to kill Palestinians, not wanting to talk about uti possidetis juris) you now accuse me of replying with "silly one-liners" or not replying? Nothing of what is written in 6174 mentions why the accusation that I am ok with killing Palestinians is validated. Nothing. There is nothing for me there to reply to. Please quote in that post how you justify that I think it is good to kill Palestinians? I mean yes, there are completely absurd and unsubstantiated point of views in there, but that is not the question. The post is in its entirety an explanation of why I don't think that the arguments that I hear from people on your side are made in good faith, which is the question that you asked. That's me answering the question. You said "It doesn't mention me" and asked the same question again. The answer won't change. You pretending that I didn't answer isn't very interesting to me. Not arguing in good faith and accusing others of "finding it good that a certain kind of people is killed" are completely different things. You can have the perception that I don't argue in good faith... that part doesn't bother me in the slightest as everyone can see the arguments I put forward and decide for themselves. What I have an issue with is this accusation: "We have a disagreement on whether it's good to kill Palestinians, you think it's good and I think it's bad." You accuse me of thinking that it is good to kill Palestinians without any proof or evidence and this is not ok. As explained in post 6176, that's a simple logical connexion. In order to argue in bad faith in favor of Israel's effort to kill Palestinians, you would need to think that, for some reason, killing Palestinians is a good outcome. It's also a view that I must imagine is common, because muslims are dangerous and evil, so it logically follows that a lot of people would want to get rid of those dangerous, evil people. What do you reckon would be a better reason to use dishonest arguments to defend Israel as it kills Palestinians? But you make the assumption that people argue in "bad faith in favor of Israel's effort to kill Palestinians", while there can be numerous other reason why the killing of Palestinians (or more general: in war times) is seen as a necessary step. One does not necessarily have to think it is a good thing to kill Palestinians to explain why innocent victims will occur. One can even add context like every death is horrible and that the civilian population shouldn't suffer as much. You are using a non sequitor fallacy as "killing Palestinians is a good thing" doesn't follow from "civilians being killed is sometimes unavoidable in war". You also make assumptions about the beliefs ("muslims are dangerous and evil") and intent ("a lot of people would want to get rid of those dangerous, evil people") of other persons or groups without knowing their motives. You further use this generalized idea to attribute it to a specific person (in this case me), who told you most definitely that these accusation are not true. Here you use several hasty generalization fallacies as well as a straw man. Well, a better reason would be the ones that have been made by me and others in this thread. Israel has one of the lowest soldier-to-civilian casualty ratios and is engaging in a responsive invasion. The absolute number of victims is so high because the terrorits are hiding in civilian infrastructure and safe zones. I agree, I make the assumption that someone who argues dishonestly in favor of Israel as it kills Palestinians does so because they think killing Palestinians is good. Once again, you don't need to uncover this hidden truth, I say so myself openly in post 6174 and in the post you're quoting. What you could be doing instead of doing that would be giving me a credible reason why someone would argue dishonestly in favor of Israel as it kills Palestinians that is not because they think killing Palestinians is good. You allude to those other reasons existing but you don't provide any example of them, even though that is literally the question I asked at the end of the post you're quoting.
I am not arguing dishonestly in favor of Israel as it kills Palestinians.
I also mentioned several times how collateral death is unavoidable, especially in densly populated areas. I further pointed out that the soldier-to- civilian casualty rate is very low in comparison to other densly populated war zones.
People die in wars. Innocent people die in wars. They die through shells, bad medical infrastructure, accidental wrong targeting, deliberate wrong targeting, collateral.. aren't these reasons "I alluded to" obvious?
But in the Israel-Palestine-conflict you have the least amount of civilians killed in comparison to similar war zones. This notion is validated by the numbers.
Your perspective is so full of fallacies and bias that you probably can't even begin to see from what perspective I am arguing from. But I still won't let you accuse me of racism and Islamophobia.
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@PremoBeats
Would you say the Israeli casualties of October 7th were more or less justifiable than the Palestinian deaths since?
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EPT
