EPTOn April 09 2024 13:36 BlackJack wrote:
I’m sure I’ve sufficiently ranted about how I feel these types of arguments dominate the discourse, at least on this side of the pond. Disagree with me on the border, you’re a xenophobe. Disagree with me on trans athletes in women’s sports you’re a transphobe. Disagree with me on abortion you’re a misogynist. The list goes on forever. The goal is not to engage in good faith, the goal is to label whoever they are arguing with as an undesirable so they can wholly dismiss what they are saying and declare themselves triumphant and morally superior. They see it as an auto-win trump card in debates, I see it as obnoxious.
Usually these arguments are coming out of the left and directed by people at the right. I could take pleasure in seeing them now get a taste of their own medicine by being called anti-Semites, and I do, but I’d trade it all back to not have to see these stupid arguments at all.
Here you don’t really have a lot of people that use this kind of argumentation. Maybe because people don’t need to stoop to that or maybe because we don’t have a lot of overtly racist, misogynistic etc people. But you still see a little of “I’m not saying you’re an anti-Semite you’re just saying things that an anti-Semite might say” or “I’m not saying you’re an antivaxxer you’re just posting something you might read on an antivax forum. Like some kind of weird guilt-by-association when there really isn’t even any association.
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On April 09 2024 08:19 WombaT wrote:
Like obviously there are graduations but it’s really not difficult to differentiate.
Are American Jews politically influential as a lobby? Yes, this is rather provable as an observation.
Are Jews an interconnected hive mind that transcend national boundaries who secretly want to take over the world and are unique in that regard, distinct from more regular forms of nationalism etc?
No like, obviously not. There are innumerable examples to the contrary one can point to.
It’s almost trivially easy to tell the difference between people observing basic reality and when they’re invoking, intentionally or otherwise, actual anti-Semitic sentiment.
On April 09 2024 07:40 BlackJack wrote:
I'm not sure what post you are even referencing where I said "follow the money" but it's hilarious that you admit that "Follow the money" is not an antisemitic trope but because there are other tropes with Jews and money you feel you can take the liberty of accusing me of using anti-semitic tropes.
I was just making the argument that you overplay the anti-semite card and you end up making the case for me better than I ever could have imagined.
On April 09 2024 07:26 JimmiC wrote:
The words in that order alone are not, but how you used it is pretty dicey.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_antisemitism
People do not just come out and say they are racist's, because no one believes themselves to be. They believe their beliefs are just facts. Does not mean it does not exist and is not constantly present.
That being said, I believe you were one of the people arguing against dog whistle racism so I understand why you would not see what I see. You need it to be explicit to believe its happening. The other people do not and would be all over people if they said the same things about of the classes or groups they support.
On April 09 2024 07:18 BlackJack wrote:
"Follow the money" is not an anti-Semitic trope lol. Maybe you just see anti-Semitism where you want to see it. Which is, of course, "very rarely."
On April 09 2024 06:59 JimmiC wrote:
Even few of those are me calling people anti-Semites. There are going to be MANY people who ingest anti-Semitism or say anti-Semitic tropes. You are a great example with your "follow the money" comment of way earlier on. It is a anti-Semitic trope but I have not called you anti-Semitic, because as far as I can tell you are not.
On April 09 2024 06:44 BlackJack wrote:
Ok, let's check
The last one is my personal favorite. You repeatedly employed this argument "well it's statistically unlikely that nobody here is anti-Semitic so...." what a ridiculous thing to say.
I'm not saying any of you have a whore for a mother, I'm just saying it would be statistically unlikely if some of you didn't have a mother who gobbles cocks... just saying... lmao
Anyway I don't think the record reflects that you "very rarely" bring out the anti-semitism card as you've claimed.
On April 09 2024 05:46 JimmiC wrote:
Thank goodness I don’t bring it out every time, in fact I bring it out very rarely. This is another thing you can easily check on but doubtful you will. I bring it out when a hateful person says that all Israelis are genocidal and have been since 1948, because it is anti-Semitic
On April 09 2024 04:24 Broetchenholer wrote:
Not every one sided overgeneralisation of Israels contribution to the conflict is anti-semitism and you should not pull that card out whenever you disagree with someone vehemently. I would say Israel has continued to move towards an Apartheid state ever since it became the clear winner of the good ole nationalism days and before that some of what they did was excusable due to existential thread and somewhat different times. And you know that yourself, but for some reason, i guess because Nebuchad and GH have taken a lean towards Palestine, you have to find a more extreme position on the other side of the discussion and it's really weird.
Your argument is always, i hate Netanyahu, what is happening is bad, i wish it was different, but in this case, i guess Palestinean civilians, international aid workers, Syrians, Journalists, Lebanese they all just have to die.
RenSC2 just casually said, that Palestineans should be punished a few decades for what their despots did. Cool. Guess that's the argument you now have to defend.
This situation is messy and terrible, there is no simple solution and the ones that have the most uncomplicated opinion of it are almost always wrong. You are trying very hard to have an uncomplicated opinion in the last few pages and whenever you are called out, you seem to double down. Probably because other people here have also had way too uncomplicated opinions before, me certainly, stilt now definately, but also Ren and cerebrate.
Like you said, the world is not black and white.
On April 08 2024 22:09 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
Wowza, just leading off post with full fledged antisemitism. At least when you take the mask off we don’t have to guess any more.
History, for non antisemitic people is not really this one sided or black and white. They were actually being gassed in Europe during this decade, actually being systematically exterminated with the intent to remove them all from existence. You know, actual genocide.
[quote]
Wowza, just leading off post with full fledged antisemitism. At least when you take the mask off we don’t have to guess any more.
History, for non antisemitic people is not really this one sided or black and white. They were actually being gassed in Europe during this decade, actually being systematically exterminated with the intent to remove them all from existence. You know, actual genocide.
Not every one sided overgeneralisation of Israels contribution to the conflict is anti-semitism and you should not pull that card out whenever you disagree with someone vehemently. I would say Israel has continued to move towards an Apartheid state ever since it became the clear winner of the good ole nationalism days and before that some of what they did was excusable due to existential thread and somewhat different times. And you know that yourself, but for some reason, i guess because Nebuchad and GH have taken a lean towards Palestine, you have to find a more extreme position on the other side of the discussion and it's really weird.
Your argument is always, i hate Netanyahu, what is happening is bad, i wish it was different, but in this case, i guess Palestinean civilians, international aid workers, Syrians, Journalists, Lebanese they all just have to die.
RenSC2 just casually said, that Palestineans should be punished a few decades for what their despots did. Cool. Guess that's the argument you now have to defend.
This situation is messy and terrible, there is no simple solution and the ones that have the most uncomplicated opinion of it are almost always wrong. You are trying very hard to have an uncomplicated opinion in the last few pages and whenever you are called out, you seem to double down. Probably because other people here have also had way too uncomplicated opinions before, me certainly, stilt now definately, but also Ren and cerebrate.
Like you said, the world is not black and white.
Thank goodness I don’t bring it out every time, in fact I bring it out very rarely. This is another thing you can easily check on but doubtful you will. I bring it out when a hateful person says that all Israelis are genocidal and have been since 1948, because it is anti-Semitic
Ok, let's check
On November 01 2023 23:51 JimmiC wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
I get that it’s easier for you to read what you want to read because of your blatant bias against me and your unconscious antisemitism but it’s not worth my time to go back and forth with you + Show Spoiler +
On November 01 2023 23:42 Nebuchad wrote:
So I understood correctly, and I'm pointing out that they aren't striking back at Hamas.
On November 01 2023 23:29 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
You would have to read my posts without hate in your heart for me and Israel which seems impossible for you. It is that they can not strike back against Hamas without killing a bunch of innocents. I've been extremely clear about this and you refuse to be remotely fair with me.
[quote]
You would have to read my posts without hate in your heart for me and Israel which seems impossible for you. It is that they can not strike back against Hamas without killing a bunch of innocents. I've been extremely clear about this and you refuse to be remotely fair with me.
So I understood correctly, and I'm pointing out that they aren't striking back at Hamas.
+ Show Spoiler +
Nope, they are which is causing massive civilian causalities. I disagree with the approach not it is impossible.
I get that it’s easier for you to read what you want to read because of your blatant bias against me and your unconscious antisemitism but it’s not worth my time to go back and forth with you + Show Spoiler +
because if I drop to your level I’ll get banned with a PM from Drone calling me an idiot. So good luck and I hope you had a great Halloween last night and at some point are able to come to terms with how you see yourself and your actual beliefs.
On November 09 2023 04:22 JimmiC wrote:
Of course not. But it’s easier for all of you to feel good about your antisemitism and insult me rather than confront it.
+ Show Spoiler +
On November 09 2023 03:44 Godwrath wrote:
Only if it's displacing all of them right? If it's (all - 1) it's not ethnic cleanse.
On November 09 2023 03:40 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
Yes if they end up forcing all Palestinians out of Gaza that would be ethnic cleansing. That many of you believe it is fact that is the goal is not in fact a fact.
[quote]
Yes if they end up forcing all Palestinians out of Gaza that would be ethnic cleansing. That many of you believe it is fact that is the goal is not in fact a fact.
Only if it's displacing all of them right? If it's (all - 1) it's not ethnic cleanse.
Of course not. But it’s easier for all of you to feel good about your antisemitism and insult me rather than confront it.
+ Show Spoiler +
There is all sorts of awful things happening in the world most of them people from the outside are able to see it from both sides, point out the awful from both sides but also have some empathy towards why that side is doing awful things. I mean it is easy for many of you to easily justify Hamas actions and the people hiding and helping them. Yet zero in the opposite way and if anyone try’s to talk about you have jump down their throats with all sorts of anger and logical fallacy.
On March 07 2024 15:33 JimmiC wrote:
Of course not.
Were you aware that many consider what you just did there antisemitism, it is a debated topic in academia.
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On March 07 2024 12:52 gobbledydook wrote:
It’s lebensraum right? Straight out of the Nazi playbook
On March 07 2024 07:18 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
Its probably better to define it as annexation. Colonialism requires they exploit the place for economic reasons, which is not the case.
[quote]
Its probably better to define it as annexation. Colonialism requires they exploit the place for economic reasons, which is not the case.
It’s lebensraum right? Straight out of the Nazi playbook
Of course not.
Were you aware that many consider what you just did there antisemitism, it is a debated topic in academia.
+ Show Spoiler +
https://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/news/antisemitism-defined-why-drawing-comparisons-of-contemporary-israeli-policy-to-the-nazis-is-antisemitic
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparisons_between_Israel_and_Nazi_Germany
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparisons_between_Israel_and_Nazi_Germany
On March 08 2024 06:00 JimmiC wrote:
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Seriously, no point me posting them anymore because it is clear you are not reading them, but there is a shit ton of academic research and papers on antisemitism in the left. And tons of the boxes get checked here fairly regularly. Does that mean lots of people here are antisemites? No it does not, does it mean that many people here are ingesting a lot of antisemitic material without realizing what it is? Yes it does.
+ Show Spoiler +
On March 08 2024 05:35 Jockmcplop wrote:
If I was to reply to this with:
'No but a huge part of Israel's ideology is killing all the Palestinians' is that a subtle enough comparison to avoid accusations of antisemitism?
On March 08 2024 05:27 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
Is that a real question?
Because a huge part of the Nazi ideology wasn't and isn't killing all the Russians.
?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
[quote]
Is that a real question?
Because a huge part of the Nazi ideology wasn't and isn't killing all the Russians.
?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
If I was to reply to this with:
'No but a huge part of Israel's ideology is killing all the Palestinians' is that a subtle enough comparison to avoid accusations of antisemitism?
+ Show Spoiler +
I mean that would be the antisemitic response to what is going on. Because if it was true they would have done is over and over with their 10 gobillion stronger than everyone army and space lasers.
Like if we talking about not Israel and Jews you would be all over this.
Like if we talking about not Israel and Jews you would be all over this.
Seriously, no point me posting them anymore because it is clear you are not reading them, but there is a shit ton of academic research and papers on antisemitism in the left. And tons of the boxes get checked here fairly regularly. Does that mean lots of people here are antisemites? No it does not, does it mean that many people here are ingesting a lot of antisemitic material without realizing what it is? Yes it does.
+ Show Spoiler +
All the people you have spent calling racists, or saying racist dog whistles, feel exactly like you do right now, crazy isn't it?
On March 08 2024 06:37 JimmiC wrote:
BTW one of the common ways leftists who are antisemites hide it, is by jus saying things about zionists. Might have ticked all the boxes now, congrats! + Show Spoiler +
On March 08 2024 06:32 Nebuchad wrote:
I've read this wiki page before, it's a good summary of how far right and unequal zionist ideology is at a fundamental level. But I'm not a zionist though, so I'm unsure why I would be embarrassed by it.
On March 08 2024 06:24 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
Wow, how embarrassing for you. Wait until you find out how it got started.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_state#:~:text=10 External links-,Overview,for British Palestine in 1947.
[quote]
Wow, how embarrassing for you. Wait until you find out how it got started.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_state#:~:text=10 External links-,Overview,for British Palestine in 1947.
I've read this wiki page before, it's a good summary of how far right and unequal zionist ideology is at a fundamental level. But I'm not a zionist though, so I'm unsure why I would be embarrassed by it.
BTW one of the common ways leftists who are antisemites hide it, is by jus saying things about zionists. Might have ticked all the boxes now, congrats! + Show Spoiler +
Seriously you should read up even ifit is just to argue me, at least you will have some basis to do so.
You should be embarrassed because as per usual I didn't say what you accused me of. Israel is a Jewish state, the only one, and this shouldn't be new information.
You should be embarrassed because as per usual I didn't say what you accused me of. Israel is a Jewish state, the only one, and this shouldn't be new information.
On April 08 2024 22:09 JimmiC wrote:
Wowza, just leading off post with full fledged antisemitism. At least when you take the mask off we don’t have to guess any more.
+ Show Spoiler +
On April 08 2024 21:50 stilt wrote:
The israelis are genocidal maniac since the ethnic cleasing of 1948. Their contemporan policies of destroying muslim place is linked to the thousands of palestinians jailed without judgment while tsahal is getting away with murdering hundred of palestinians every years including two years old without any consequences way before the 07/10.
You're of them as well by the way with your carte blanche stuff, I suppose you're denying the israeli induced famine in gaza as well.
It's weird, every advocate for genocide always end up being a negationnist in the end.
On April 08 2024 05:36 RenSC2 wrote:
[quote]
I know that you're partially saying these things sarcastically, but it's also kind of the point that needs to be made. People siding with Palestine are rewarding terrorism. They're telling every fanatic around the world that they can go on a rape, murder, and hostage taking spree and get rewarded for it.
When pressed, people in this thread will say how much they dislike Hamas while at the same time pushing policies that reward Hamas for being genocidal maniacs. It doesn't make sense. Stop rewarding Hamas or at least be open and honest that you side with Hamas's terrorism. Be open that you approve of rape, murder, and kidnapping as a means to get what you want... so long as it happens to the right minority. Because that's what you're doing even while you decry the violence. You can't eat your cake and have it too.
I think differently. Every Palestinian death is the fault of Hamas. The international community needs to stop with its bullshit and place the blame squarely where it needs to go, on Hamas. I know the international community is too cowardly to directly punish Hamas, just as they won't do anything real to stop Russia from invading Ukraine. However, they can at least make it known that Hamas will be blamed for everything and give Israel carte blanche to do whatever it takes to hold Hamas responsible. Punish terrorism.
[quote]
I know that you're partially saying these things sarcastically, but it's also kind of the point that needs to be made. People siding with Palestine are rewarding terrorism. They're telling every fanatic around the world that they can go on a rape, murder, and hostage taking spree and get rewarded for it.
When pressed, people in this thread will say how much they dislike Hamas while at the same time pushing policies that reward Hamas for being genocidal maniacs. It doesn't make sense. Stop rewarding Hamas or at least be open and honest that you side with Hamas's terrorism. Be open that you approve of rape, murder, and kidnapping as a means to get what you want... so long as it happens to the right minority. Because that's what you're doing even while you decry the violence. You can't eat your cake and have it too.
I think differently. Every Palestinian death is the fault of Hamas. The international community needs to stop with its bullshit and place the blame squarely where it needs to go, on Hamas. I know the international community is too cowardly to directly punish Hamas, just as they won't do anything real to stop Russia from invading Ukraine. However, they can at least make it known that Hamas will be blamed for everything and give Israel carte blanche to do whatever it takes to hold Hamas responsible. Punish terrorism.
The israelis are genocidal maniac since the ethnic cleasing of 1948. Their contemporan policies of destroying muslim place is linked to the thousands of palestinians jailed without judgment while tsahal is getting away with murdering hundred of palestinians every years including two years old without any consequences way before the 07/10.
You're of them as well by the way with your carte blanche stuff, I suppose you're denying the israeli induced famine in gaza as well.
It's weird, every advocate for genocide always end up being a negationnist in the end.
Wowza, just leading off post with full fledged antisemitism. At least when you take the mask off we don’t have to guess any more.
+ Show Spoiler +
History, for non antisemitic people is not really this one sided or black and white. They were actually being gassed in Europe during this decade, actually being systematically exterminated with the intent to remove them all from existence. You know, actual genocide.
On January 18 2024 05:28 JimmiC wrote:
+ Show Spoiler + I also don't think you believe all the antisemitic tropes GH does (just with the word capitalist swapped for Jew, to make it more palatable for the lefty).
On January 18 2024 04:32 Nebuchad wrote:
"In the way that you want" was just a turn of phrase, I meant "in the way that you're envisioning when you're writing this paragraph". I didn't mean to imply that you want it, I apologize. To answer your question, I don't think you want many specific things regarding the Palestinian conflict, I think it's much more important to you to disagree with GH me or Drone (and now the other people that you're starting to dislike because of this thread) than any real world stuff.
Hamas is obviously not an external force, as it's composed of an absurdly large majority of Palestinians (if not a totality? I don't really know if there's a way to know that, but it doesn't matter). There is no significant percentage of Iranians flocking to Gaza to join Hamas. What a silly claim.
"And then it goes to that they are creating a situation where Israeli's who wouldn't normally be far right are being pushed in that direction. They are supporting the IDF not because they have those ideals but because they are the group fighting back."
=> "This logic also works the other way around when it comes to Palestine attacking Israel, which is why I also don't support the violence of events like Oct 7th, so you can delete the paragraph that you started to write asking me that question."
I can't say I'm surprised but come on.
Israel is currently run by a far right government, who is operating the war machine. The people who are not far right in Israel are not the people who are running this war, and as such my claim is justified. If you want to call me anti-Israel because I claimed some fascists are fascists, then you can, but I will not be impressed.
For a line of fun, notice that you started your post with "Glad to see you're still incapable of not being a slave to your assumptions" and then you ended it with a paragraph about how I'm not comfortable with killing Hamas militants (or members, I don't know what the difference is supposed to be lol) even though I say I am.
On January 18 2024 03:59 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
Paragraph 1
Glad to see you're still incapable of not being a slave to your assumptions... So what exactly is what I want? Feel free to actually take a stab
Paragraph 2.
Hamas is the external force, they are a proxy army of Iran, do you dispute it or just ignore it? And then it goes to that they are creating a situation where Israeli's who wouldn't normally be far right are being pushed in that direction. They are supporting the IDF not because they have those ideals but because they are the group fighting back.
Paragraph 3
Nothing says your not anti-Israel like calling them a bunch of far right people trying to ethnically cleanse. Is there people in Israel with those beliefs, of course. 25%-45% a significant part. What is the percentage of people in Gaza that want to commit genocide against Israel? What % supported and cheered for the sexual violence, torture and murder? And yet I do not see you making sweeping statements about the Palestinians? Why is that?
Here is the rub, if someone actually used your extremely biased logic in the other direction they would support the exact thing that you say you are against.
Paragraph 4.
I think a lot of people are uncomfortable with killing Hamas members, this is why you have now changed your initial statement and added the word militant. Even then we have a few I'm not sure on, if they were actively killing babies and raping women in Israel, I think no one. If they were sheltered in a tunnel in Gaza, I think quiet a few would be against that. If they were donating money to Hamas, I think lots of people would be against that. If they were hosting tunnel entrances in their homes, I think a lot of people would be against it.
That you are against the Hamas members that are actually out there killing babies and raping women is not that far from the "few bad apples" kind of thoughts you profess to hate in other threads.
[quote]
Paragraph 1
Glad to see you're still incapable of not being a slave to your assumptions... So what exactly is what I want? Feel free to actually take a stab
Paragraph 2.
Hamas is the external force, they are a proxy army of Iran, do you dispute it or just ignore it? And then it goes to that they are creating a situation where Israeli's who wouldn't normally be far right are being pushed in that direction. They are supporting the IDF not because they have those ideals but because they are the group fighting back.
Paragraph 3
Nothing says your not anti-Israel like calling them a bunch of far right people trying to ethnically cleanse. Is there people in Israel with those beliefs, of course. 25%-45% a significant part. What is the percentage of people in Gaza that want to commit genocide against Israel? What % supported and cheered for the sexual violence, torture and murder? And yet I do not see you making sweeping statements about the Palestinians? Why is that?
Here is the rub, if someone actually used your extremely biased logic in the other direction they would support the exact thing that you say you are against.
Paragraph 4.
I think a lot of people are uncomfortable with killing Hamas members, this is why you have now changed your initial statement and added the word militant. Even then we have a few I'm not sure on, if they were actively killing babies and raping women in Israel, I think no one. If they were sheltered in a tunnel in Gaza, I think quiet a few would be against that. If they were donating money to Hamas, I think lots of people would be against that. If they were hosting tunnel entrances in their homes, I think a lot of people would be against it.
That you are against the Hamas members that are actually out there killing babies and raping women is not that far from the "few bad apples" kind of thoughts you profess to hate in other threads.
"In the way that you want" was just a turn of phrase, I meant "in the way that you're envisioning when you're writing this paragraph". I didn't mean to imply that you want it, I apologize. To answer your question, I don't think you want many specific things regarding the Palestinian conflict, I think it's much more important to you to disagree with GH me or Drone (and now the other people that you're starting to dislike because of this thread) than any real world stuff.
Hamas is obviously not an external force, as it's composed of an absurdly large majority of Palestinians (if not a totality? I don't really know if there's a way to know that, but it doesn't matter). There is no significant percentage of Iranians flocking to Gaza to join Hamas. What a silly claim.
"And then it goes to that they are creating a situation where Israeli's who wouldn't normally be far right are being pushed in that direction. They are supporting the IDF not because they have those ideals but because they are the group fighting back."
=> "This logic also works the other way around when it comes to Palestine attacking Israel, which is why I also don't support the violence of events like Oct 7th, so you can delete the paragraph that you started to write asking me that question."
I can't say I'm surprised but come on.
Israel is currently run by a far right government, who is operating the war machine. The people who are not far right in Israel are not the people who are running this war, and as such my claim is justified. If you want to call me anti-Israel because I claimed some fascists are fascists, then you can, but I will not be impressed.
For a line of fun, notice that you started your post with "Glad to see you're still incapable of not being a slave to your assumptions" and then you ended it with a paragraph about how I'm not comfortable with killing Hamas militants (or members, I don't know what the difference is supposed to be lol) even though I say I am.
+ Show Spoiler +
Appreciate the sorta apology. You got it completely wrong (other than that I don't like three arrogant self righteous pricks who are and continue to be assholes to me, I would be a moronic door mat to not dislike them). I'd say it again, but we both know you would just keep on believing your assumption.
Hamas is a proxy army for Iran, their, weapons, ideology, financing is all Iran, TBH I'm shocked you believe the propaganda. Fatah well flawed is Palestinian and they lost to Hamas, brutally, because of the Iranian backing.
Your bolded part does not counter what I said, I'm not saying you support the attack on Israel, I'm saying you are not applying your logic in both directions. I'm trying to point out the lack of consistency.
And for your last paragraph, I really do not know if it is your reading comprehension (which I doubt but it becoming a more and more realistic option considering how incredibly wrong you get things). I literally explain what I mean, I said you are comfortable killing the people with the guns while they are doing the horrible acts. I'm NOT SURE on the other members of Hamas you are OK with killing of what level of support to Hamas they need to give to meet your level.
I also think that you and the other people in this thread that appear in lock step would likely have different opinions on those thresholds. I also suspect your threshold to when you would enact violence on a "fascist" or supporter of fascism is much different than Hamas. I don't however think you are at GH levels where any communist can kill whoever in his revolution call them a capitalist and be OK.
Hamas is a proxy army for Iran, their, weapons, ideology, financing is all Iran, TBH I'm shocked you believe the propaganda. Fatah well flawed is Palestinian and they lost to Hamas, brutally, because of the Iranian backing.
Your bolded part does not counter what I said, I'm not saying you support the attack on Israel, I'm saying you are not applying your logic in both directions. I'm trying to point out the lack of consistency.
And for your last paragraph, I really do not know if it is your reading comprehension (which I doubt but it becoming a more and more realistic option considering how incredibly wrong you get things). I literally explain what I mean, I said you are comfortable killing the people with the guns while they are doing the horrible acts. I'm NOT SURE on the other members of Hamas you are OK with killing of what level of support to Hamas they need to give to meet your level.
I also think that you and the other people in this thread that appear in lock step would likely have different opinions on those thresholds. I also suspect your threshold to when you would enact violence on a "fascist" or supporter of fascism is much different than Hamas. I don't however think you are at GH levels where any communist can kill whoever in his revolution call them a capitalist and be OK.
On February 15 2024 22:47 JimmiC wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
But when you start moving into the “they want them all dead” category, you end up dangerously close to the blood libel category of antisemitism. + Show Spoiler +
On February 15 2024 11:53 WombaT wrote:
Within a thread that massively discusses the Israeli/Palestine conflict almost exclusively, I feel contextually ‘pro-Israel camp’ should be pretty likely to be referring to ‘pro Israel’s conduct in this conflict’ rather than ‘pro Israel existing’.
And in addition MP goes on to talk specifically about deaths, destruction and indeed war.
Sure crossed wires happen, but how did you pivot that all the way over to ‘…likely all Jewish people evil’ being the messaging here? In fairness you did add a caveat regarding intent, but it’s a ludicrously uncharitable interpretation of what he wrote.
On February 15 2024 10:12 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
You are not aware that basically all Israelis are pro Israel? Even the ones who are anti war are pro Israel, basically every Jewish person in the world is pro Israel. So when you write what MP writes you are calling all Israelis and likely all Jewish people evil. Whether or not that is intended or not only he knows, but that is the message he is writing with his hot takes.
[quote]
You are not aware that basically all Israelis are pro Israel? Even the ones who are anti war are pro Israel, basically every Jewish person in the world is pro Israel. So when you write what MP writes you are calling all Israelis and likely all Jewish people evil. Whether or not that is intended or not only he knows, but that is the message he is writing with his hot takes.
Within a thread that massively discusses the Israeli/Palestine conflict almost exclusively, I feel contextually ‘pro-Israel camp’ should be pretty likely to be referring to ‘pro Israel’s conduct in this conflict’ rather than ‘pro Israel existing’.
And in addition MP goes on to talk specifically about deaths, destruction and indeed war.
Sure crossed wires happen, but how did you pivot that all the way over to ‘…likely all Jewish people evil’ being the messaging here? In fairness you did add a caveat regarding intent, but it’s a ludicrously uncharitable interpretation of what he wrote.
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More or less ludicrous than his interpretation of everyone of Cerebrates posts?
There is plenty of actual bad things the IDF is doing and saying they are doing to talk about that there is no need to pretend someone knows what they “actually want to do”. The power imbalance is such (and MP spent ample time discussing the power imbalance this is why he thinks IDF has all agency and this is Hamas only option) that the IDF can do what every they want. If they actually wanted to kill as many Palestinians as possible they simply would, they easily could.
You can discuss how they are willing to destroy massive amounts of civilian infrastructure to get Hamas. You can discuss how they are willing to kill more civilians, even children, to get Hamas. You can talk about how wrong that is. How it will create an endless loop of hate. There is plenty of other real things you can discuss.
There is plenty of actual bad things the IDF is doing and saying they are doing to talk about that there is no need to pretend someone knows what they “actually want to do”. The power imbalance is such (and MP spent ample time discussing the power imbalance this is why he thinks IDF has all agency and this is Hamas only option) that the IDF can do what every they want. If they actually wanted to kill as many Palestinians as possible they simply would, they easily could.
You can discuss how they are willing to destroy massive amounts of civilian infrastructure to get Hamas. You can discuss how they are willing to kill more civilians, even children, to get Hamas. You can talk about how wrong that is. How it will create an endless loop of hate. There is plenty of other real things you can discuss.
But when you start moving into the “they want them all dead” category, you end up dangerously close to the blood libel category of antisemitism. + Show Spoiler +
Next there is absolutely no need to be a complete asshole to Cerebrate1 every time he posts. Disagree with what he actually says do not make fan fiction about what MP thinks he really feels, especially when that is so hateful. It basically shows a mirror into how MP feels as Cerebrate1 has never exposed hate.
The interesting thing about this site is you have people all over the world with different backgrounds and experiences. The different opinions are what makes it interesting. Cerebrate has a way more in depth knowledge than anyone else here on the conflict. I’m not saying you have to agree but the bar is pretty low at not transforming everything he says into some hateful message he never gave.
The interesting thing about this site is you have people all over the world with different backgrounds and experiences. The different opinions are what makes it interesting. Cerebrate has a way more in depth knowledge than anyone else here on the conflict. I’m not saying you have to agree but the bar is pretty low at not transforming everything he says into some hateful message he never gave.
On November 20 2023 10:53 JimmiC wrote:
+ Show Spoiler + And also, it would statistically unbelievable if no one who participates in these threads have antisemitic bias.
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On November 20 2023 09:35 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
I never said that.
You did also not say that you dont like antisemitism. You said people here were antisemtic ok?
So once more you are lying or not that bright (Im sorry for the ad hominem but what else can it be ffs)
I mean im sorry but I asked a simple question. Even made it easier with 1) 2) Y/N ect..
So Im a bit confused. I feel like you are evading but.. well.. apparently you dont like to respond to my posts yet half of the time you do.. you just write untrue stuff..
It is really just absurdly annoying at this point.
On November 20 2023 08:22 JimmiC wrote:
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People who do not like antisemitism are pro Israel? I thought we just called those people not awful.
This is why I do not respond to your posts, you clearly have not read any thing I’ve written. Why would I put in the effort when you are just going to shit post about me?
From yours I have read that you already know so much more from YouTube videos and this is just a waste of time so your done, but then you just come back and rinse repeat.
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People who do not like antisemitism are pro Israel? I thought we just called those people not awful.
This is why I do not respond to your posts, you clearly have not read any thing I’ve written. Why would I put in the effort when you are just going to shit post about me?
From yours I have read that you already know so much more from YouTube videos and this is just a waste of time so your done, but then you just come back and rinse repeat.
I never said that.
You did also not say that you dont like antisemitism. You said people here were antisemtic ok?
So once more you are lying or not that bright (Im sorry for the ad hominem but what else can it be ffs)
I mean im sorry but I asked a simple question. Even made it easier with 1) 2) Y/N ect..
So Im a bit confused. I feel like you are evading but.. well.. apparently you dont like to respond to my posts yet half of the time you do.. you just write untrue stuff..
It is really just absurdly annoying at this point.
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If you don’t want to engage with stop asking me questions by name. It is not a strange request for me to ask you to if you are genuinely interested in my thoughts.
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Sorry not sorry that you can’t handle that or whatever your issue is, just actually follow through of your repeated threat of going away, or at least stop making it.
The last one is my personal favorite. You repeatedly employed this argument "well it's statistically unlikely that nobody here is anti-Semitic so...." what a ridiculous thing to say.
I'm not saying any of you have a whore for a mother, I'm just saying it would be statistically unlikely if some of you didn't have a mother who gobbles cocks... just saying... lmao
Anyway I don't think the record reflects that you "very rarely" bring out the anti-semitism card as you've claimed.
Even few of those are me calling people anti-Semites. There are going to be MANY people who ingest anti-Semitism or say anti-Semitic tropes. You are a great example with your "follow the money" comment of way earlier on. It is a anti-Semitic trope but I have not called you anti-Semitic, because as far as I can tell you are not.
"Follow the money" is not an anti-Semitic trope lol. Maybe you just see anti-Semitism where you want to see it. Which is, of course, "very rarely."
The words in that order alone are not, but how you used it is pretty dicey.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_antisemitism
People do not just come out and say they are racist's, because no one believes themselves to be. They believe their beliefs are just facts. Does not mean it does not exist and is not constantly present.
That being said, I believe you were one of the people arguing against dog whistle racism so I understand why you would not see what I see. You need it to be explicit to believe its happening. The other people do not and would be all over people if they said the same things about of the classes or groups they support.
I'm not sure what post you are even referencing where I said "follow the money" but it's hilarious that you admit that "Follow the money" is not an antisemitic trope but because there are other tropes with Jews and money you feel you can take the liberty of accusing me of using anti-semitic tropes.
I was just making the argument that you overplay the anti-semite card and you end up making the case for me better than I ever could have imagined.
Like obviously there are graduations but it’s really not difficult to differentiate.
Are American Jews politically influential as a lobby? Yes, this is rather provable as an observation.
Are Jews an interconnected hive mind that transcend national boundaries who secretly want to take over the world and are unique in that regard, distinct from more regular forms of nationalism etc?
No like, obviously not. There are innumerable examples to the contrary one can point to.
It’s almost trivially easy to tell the difference between people observing basic reality and when they’re invoking, intentionally or otherwise, actual anti-Semitic sentiment.
I’m sure I’ve sufficiently ranted about how I feel these types of arguments dominate the discourse, at least on this side of the pond. Disagree with me on the border, you’re a xenophobe. Disagree with me on trans athletes in women’s sports you’re a transphobe. Disagree with me on abortion you’re a misogynist. The list goes on forever. The goal is not to engage in good faith, the goal is to label whoever they are arguing with as an undesirable so they can wholly dismiss what they are saying and declare themselves triumphant and morally superior. They see it as an auto-win trump card in debates, I see it as obnoxious.
Usually these arguments are coming out of the left and directed by people at the right. I could take pleasure in seeing them now get a taste of their own medicine by being called anti-Semites, and I do, but I’d trade it all back to not have to see these stupid arguments at all.
Here you don’t really have a lot of people that use this kind of argumentation. Maybe because people don’t need to stoop to that or maybe because we don’t have a lot of overtly racist, misogynistic etc people. But you still see a little of “I’m not saying you’re an anti-Semite you’re just saying things that an anti-Semite might say” or “I’m not saying you’re an antivaxxer you’re just posting something you might read on an antivax forum. Like some kind of weird guilt-by-association when there really isn’t even any association.
I would certainly agree that in general this is a pretty consistent failing in how many folks of the broader left conduct such conversations. It’s a pretty ineffective method of changing attitudes, and indeed can turn or harden views just as frequently, if not more so than altering them.
On the flip side of course prejudices of various kinds do innately surround such topics and can’t be unpacked from them, nor should they remain unchallenged. But in a broader sense I don’t think people are particularly judicious in where they draw particular lines in the sand.
For me it’s like that old adage on what constitutes pornography, ‘I’ll know it when I see it’, which I guess is a rather subjective and flawed framework to work around, albeit one I could probably codify in some reasonably consistent way.
As you say it’s not like TL is a hotbed of accusations of various prejudices shutting down attempts at discourse, or redirecting it.
