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On April 09 2024 07:26 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2024 07:18 BlackJack wrote:On April 09 2024 06:59 JimmiC wrote:On April 09 2024 06:44 BlackJack wrote:On April 09 2024 05:46 JimmiC wrote:On April 09 2024 04:24 Broetchenholer wrote:On April 08 2024 22:09 JimmiC wrote:On April 08 2024 21:50 stilt wrote:On April 08 2024 05:36 RenSC2 wrote:On April 07 2024 19:11 Magic Powers wrote:
Isn't it remarkable how Hamas managed to draw so much positive attention to the Palestinian suffering despite only killing 0.012% of Israeli people? It's but a scratch in the Israeli population! Finally Palestinians have a future to look forward to thanks to rapidly growing international support, and virtually no one had to die for it.
It's just so unfortunate that Israel is the literal demonic evil hell-bent on destroying the entire Arabic world, and we must support Hamas in their holy cause that will save the world.
Faulty math is a commonly used tool of apologists and fanatics. We need to be better than that and not fall into the same mental trap. I know that you're partially saying these things sarcastically, but it's also kind of the point that needs to be made. People siding with Palestine are rewarding terrorism. They're telling every fanatic around the world that they can go on a rape, murder, and hostage taking spree and get rewarded for it. When pressed, people in this thread will say how much they dislike Hamas while at the same time pushing policies that reward Hamas for being genocidal maniacs. It doesn't make sense. Stop rewarding Hamas or at least be open and honest that you side with Hamas's terrorism. Be open that you approve of rape, murder, and kidnapping as a means to get what you want... so long as it happens to the right minority. Because that's what you're doing even while you decry the violence. You can't eat your cake and have it too. I think differently. Every Palestinian death is the fault of Hamas. The international community needs to stop with its bullshit and place the blame squarely where it needs to go, on Hamas. I know the international community is too cowardly to directly punish Hamas, just as they won't do anything real to stop Russia from invading Ukraine. However, they can at least make it known that Hamas will be blamed for everything and give Israel carte blanche to do whatever it takes to hold Hamas responsible. Punish terrorism. The israelis are genocidal maniac since the ethnic cleasing of 1948. Their contemporan policies of destroying muslim place is linked to the thousands of palestinians jailed without judgment while tsahal is getting away with murdering hundred of palestinians every years including two years old without any consequences way before the 07/10. You're of them as well by the way with your carte blanche stuff, I suppose you're denying the israeli induced famine in gaza as well. It's weird, every advocate for genocide always end up being a negationnist in the end. Wowza, just leading off post with full fledged antisemitism. At least when you take the mask off we don’t have to guess any more. History, for non antisemitic people is not really this one sided or black and white. They were actually being gassed in Europe during this decade, actually being systematically exterminated with the intent to remove them all from existence. You know, actual genocide. Not every one sided overgeneralisation of Israels contribution to the conflict is anti-semitism and you should not pull that card out whenever you disagree with someone vehemently. I would say Israel has continued to move towards an Apartheid state ever since it became the clear winner of the good ole nationalism days and before that some of what they did was excusable due to existential thread and somewhat different times. And you know that yourself, but for some reason, i guess because Nebuchad and GH have taken a lean towards Palestine, you have to find a more extreme position on the other side of the discussion and it's really weird. Your argument is always, i hate Netanyahu, what is happening is bad, i wish it was different, but in this case, i guess Palestinean civilians, international aid workers, Syrians, Journalists, Lebanese they all just have to die. RenSC2 just casually said, that Palestineans should be punished a few decades for what their despots did. Cool. Guess that's the argument you now have to defend. This situation is messy and terrible, there is no simple solution and the ones that have the most uncomplicated opinion of it are almost always wrong. You are trying very hard to have an uncomplicated opinion in the last few pages and whenever you are called out, you seem to double down. Probably because other people here have also had way too uncomplicated opinions before, me certainly, stilt now definately, but also Ren and cerebrate. Like you said, the world is not black and white. Thank goodness I don’t bring it out every time, in fact I bring it out very rarely. This is another thing you can easily check on but doubtful you will. I bring it out when a hateful person says that all Israelis are genocidal and have been since 1948, because it is anti-Semitic Ok, let's check On November 01 2023 23:51 JimmiC wrote:On November 01 2023 23:42 Nebuchad wrote:On November 01 2023 23:29 JimmiC wrote:On November 01 2023 23:23 Nebuchad wrote:On November 01 2023 23:19 JimmiC wrote:On November 01 2023 23:05 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
People are arguing that Israel isn't "striking back" at Hamas. The premise is a lie.
Hamas is "striking back" at Israel, btw. That doesn't make them justified in their targeting of civilians, nor does it make the question "ah but what else should Hamas do" an interesting one How kind of you to pull something out of context and treat it as a lone statement. You can't attack back at just Hamas because of their strategy of imbedding in civilians. Don't be so naive. In the context did you write "I realize that my portrayal of the argument I'm facing as "Israel has no right to strike back at Hamas" was inaccurate"? You would have to read my posts without hate in your heart for me and Israel which seems impossible for you. It is that they can not strike back against Hamas without killing a bunch of innocents. I've been extremely clear about this and you refuse to be remotely fair with me. So I understood correctly, and I'm pointing out that they aren't striking back at Hamas. + Show Spoiler +Nope, they are which is causing massive civilian causalities. I disagree with the approach not it is impossible. I get that it’s easier for you to read what you want to read because of your blatant bias against me and your unconscious antisemitism but it’s not worth my time to go back and forth with you + Show Spoiler +because if I drop to your level I’ll get banned with a PM from Drone calling me an idiot. So good luck and I hope you had a great Halloween last night and at some point are able to come to terms with how you see yourself and your actual beliefs. On November 09 2023 04:22 JimmiC wrote:On November 09 2023 03:44 Godwrath wrote:On November 09 2023 03:40 JimmiC wrote:On November 09 2023 03:32 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2023 03:24 JimmiC wrote:On November 09 2023 03:17 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]A reminder that ethnic cleansing doesn't just cover killing, but also includes forced displacement.
But forced displacement alone does not mean ethnic cleansing. And certainly not genocide which is also being used freely. I think you might want to look up the definition of ethnic cleansing. "Forced displacement" (of an ethnic group) is the first thing that comes up. Yes if they end up forcing all Palestinians out of Gaza that would be ethnic cleansing. That many of you believe it is fact that is the goal is not in fact a fact. Only if it's displacing all of them right? If it's (all - 1) it's not ethnic cleanse. Of course not. But it’s easier for all of you to feel good about your antisemitism and insult me rather than confront it. + Show Spoiler +There is all sorts of awful things happening in the world most of them people from the outside are able to see it from both sides, point out the awful from both sides but also have some empathy towards why that side is doing awful things. I mean it is easy for many of you to easily justify Hamas actions and the people hiding and helping them. Yet zero in the opposite way and if anyone try’s to talk about you have jump down their throats with all sorts of anger and logical fallacy. On March 07 2024 15:33 JimmiC wrote:On March 07 2024 12:52 gobbledydook wrote:On March 07 2024 07:18 JimmiC wrote:On March 07 2024 06:43 WombaT wrote:On March 07 2024 04:56 Ciaus237 wrote:BBC: Israel approves plans for 3,400 new homes in West Bank settlementsDon't really have much to say on this one. It's such blatant settler colonialism, and meanwhile Israel gets little more than a finger-wag from the rest of the world. I think that if my country was in a slightly more politically useful location that apartheid would be ongoing and we'd be getting a blank cheque from the US to sustain it.
Israel's Haaretz newspaper said the Higher Planning Committee of the Civil Administration - the body that implements Israeli government policy in the West Bank - had advanced plans for the development of 3,476 settler homes on Wednesday - with 2,452 in Maale Adumim, 694 in Efrat and 330 in Kedar.
Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich, a far-right politician who oversees the Civil Administration, said following the meeting that a total of 18,515 homes in West Bank settlements had now been approved over the past year.
"The enemies try to harm and weaken us but we will continue to build and be built up in this land," he wrote on X, formerly Twitter.
It’s the craic like this that is largely indefensible and drives a lot of ire against Israel from folks like yours truly. The issue of security and having a population next door that wishes to do your populace harm, and how to deal with that is a lot less cut and dry and intractable, so I try to demarcate between the two although there is crossover naturally. So long as Israel engages in overt colonialism well, folks will consider them as engaging in overt colonialism. Its probably better to define it as annexation. Colonialism requires they exploit the place for economic reasons, which is not the case. It’s lebensraum right? Straight out of the Nazi playbook Of course not. Were you aware that many consider what you just did there antisemitism, it is a debated topic in academia. + Show Spoiler + On March 08 2024 06:00 JimmiC wrote:On March 08 2024 05:35 Jockmcplop wrote:On March 08 2024 05:27 JimmiC wrote:On March 08 2024 05:21 Salazarz wrote:On March 08 2024 03:17 JimmiC wrote:On March 08 2024 02:57 Salazarz wrote:
[quote]
There is an artificial set of qualities that determines whether a person is eligible for the full set of rights guaranteed by Israel's constitution or not; and even being a citizen of Israel does not guarantee you said full rights. You can obviously find ways how it isn't totally same as the Nazis were, but I mean, I'm pretty sure nobody saying that Israel is becoming modern day Nazis is claiming that they are literally one and the same -- just like people who claim that Hamas are same as Nazis probably aren't meaning that in the absolute sense, or people who claim that Putin's Russia is same as Nazis probably don't mean it in the absolute sense. But you can obviously see given the history of the Jews and Nazi's why comparing the two would be problematic no? Have you not been on the other side of many dog whistle arguments? Why is it problematic to compare modern Israel to Nazis, but not modern Russia? Is that a real question? Because a huge part of the Nazi ideology wasn't and isn't killing all the Russians. ?!?!?!?!?!?!?! If I was to reply to this with: 'No but a huge part of Israel's ideology is killing all the Palestinians' is that a subtle enough comparison to avoid accusations of antisemitism? + Show Spoiler +I mean that would be the antisemitic response to what is going on. Because if it was true they would have done is over and over with their 10 gobillion stronger than everyone army and space lasers.
Like if we talking about not Israel and Jews you would be all over this. Seriously, no point me posting them anymore because it is clear you are not reading them, but there is a shit ton of academic research and papers on antisemitism in the left. And tons of the boxes get checked here fairly regularly. Does that mean lots of people here are antisemites? No it does not, does it mean that many people here are ingesting a lot of antisemitic material without realizing what it is? Yes it does. + Show Spoiler +All the people you have spent calling racists, or saying racist dog whistles, feel exactly like you do right now, crazy isn't it? On March 08 2024 06:37 JimmiC wrote:On March 08 2024 06:32 Nebuchad wrote:On March 08 2024 06:24 JimmiC wrote:On March 08 2024 06:18 Nebuchad wrote:On March 08 2024 06:10 JimmiC wrote:On March 08 2024 06:08 Nebuchad wrote:
I'm certainly no expert on the topic but the only thing I've seen in the last few posts that seemed antisemitic to me was when JimmiC equated Israel and Jewish people, making the disgusting generalization that all Jewish people agree with Israel's actions and that criticism of Israel was criticism of Jews. Other than that I didn't spot anything reprehensible. As I said to salazar on the last make up, Source it or fuck off. On March 08 2024 03:17 JimmiC wrote:
But you can obviously see given the history of the Jews and Nazi's why comparing the two would be problematic no?
Have you not been on the other side of many dog whistle arguments? Well right there you said that given the history of the Jews and Nazis it is problematic to compare Israel with Nazis, which in a world where Jews and Israel are clearly separated groups, it isn't. Wow, how embarrassing for you. Wait until you find out how it got started. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_state#:~:text=10 External links-,Overview,for British Palestine in 1947. I've read this wiki page before, it's a good summary of how far right and unequal zionist ideology is at a fundamental level. But I'm not a zionist though, so I'm unsure why I would be embarrassed by it. BTW one of the common ways leftists who are antisemites hide it, is by jus saying things about zionists. Might have ticked all the boxes now, congrats! + Show Spoiler +Seriously you should read up even ifit is just to argue me, at least you will have some basis to do so.
You should be embarrassed because as per usual I didn't say what you accused me of. Israel is a Jewish state, the only one, and this shouldn't be new information. On April 08 2024 22:09 JimmiC wrote:On April 08 2024 21:50 stilt wrote:On April 08 2024 05:36 RenSC2 wrote:On April 07 2024 19:11 Magic Powers wrote:
Isn't it remarkable how Hamas managed to draw so much positive attention to the Palestinian suffering despite only killing 0.012% of Israeli people? It's but a scratch in the Israeli population! Finally Palestinians have a future to look forward to thanks to rapidly growing international support, and virtually no one had to die for it.
It's just so unfortunate that Israel is the literal demonic evil hell-bent on destroying the entire Arabic world, and we must support Hamas in their holy cause that will save the world.
Faulty math is a commonly used tool of apologists and fanatics. We need to be better than that and not fall into the same mental trap. I know that you're partially saying these things sarcastically, but it's also kind of the point that needs to be made. People siding with Palestine are rewarding terrorism. They're telling every fanatic around the world that they can go on a rape, murder, and hostage taking spree and get rewarded for it. When pressed, people in this thread will say how much they dislike Hamas while at the same time pushing policies that reward Hamas for being genocidal maniacs. It doesn't make sense. Stop rewarding Hamas or at least be open and honest that you side with Hamas's terrorism. Be open that you approve of rape, murder, and kidnapping as a means to get what you want... so long as it happens to the right minority. Because that's what you're doing even while you decry the violence. You can't eat your cake and have it too. I think differently. Every Palestinian death is the fault of Hamas. The international community needs to stop with its bullshit and place the blame squarely where it needs to go, on Hamas. I know the international community is too cowardly to directly punish Hamas, just as they won't do anything real to stop Russia from invading Ukraine. However, they can at least make it known that Hamas will be blamed for everything and give Israel carte blanche to do whatever it takes to hold Hamas responsible. Punish terrorism. The israelis are genocidal maniac since the ethnic cleasing of 1948. Their contemporan policies of destroying muslim place is linked to the thousands of palestinians jailed without judgment while tsahal is getting away with murdering hundred of palestinians every years including two years old without any consequences way before the 07/10. You're of them as well by the way with your carte blanche stuff, I suppose you're denying the israeli induced famine in gaza as well. It's weird, every advocate for genocide always end up being a negationnist in the end. Wowza, just leading off post with full fledged antisemitism. At least when you take the mask off we don’t have to guess any more. + Show Spoiler +History, for non antisemitic people is not really this one sided or black and white. They were actually being gassed in Europe during this decade, actually being systematically exterminated with the intent to remove them all from existence. You know, actual genocide. On January 18 2024 05:28 JimmiC wrote:On January 18 2024 04:32 Nebuchad wrote:On January 18 2024 03:59 JimmiC wrote:On January 18 2024 03:32 Nebuchad wrote:On January 18 2024 02:36 JimmiC wrote:On January 18 2024 02:20 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
Can you think of someone who said in the thread that it was wrong to kill Hamas militants? Cause if not, I'm a little confused with why you're getting stuck on this. If Hamas is in Israel currently killing Israelis than people seem to agree killing them is fine. If they are in Gaza and not currently killing Israelis is where the disagreements happen. Some people have stated that Israel should not attack outside of the borders no matter what because that can’t be defense. Others like me have suggested that shouldn’t because the cost of civilian life is too high with their human shield strategy. Then there are more complicated questions that anti Israeli posters avoid even talking about, like for example, is someone a civilian if they are hosting a tunnel entrance in their house? How much support of Hamas makes a person a legitimate target? I wonder if your passion for killing fascists and their supporters travels to Hamas supporters? It does yes, but not in the way that you want.I support violent resistance against authoritarianism the world over, by the people who are the victims of it. When an exterior force comes in and takes up that fight, that is something that I have more trouble with because mechanically what it creates is more support for the authoritarian group, as happened during the war in Afghanistan. People who otherwise wouldn't develop far right ideas see their countrymen being attacked by a foreign force, and naturally side with the group that is doing resistance not because they're very into far right ideas but because that's the group that is fighting back. These types of foreign interventions create more support for authoritarians, and therefore they're counterproductive, so I wouldn't be in support of that violence in principle and I am even less in support of it in practice because usually the foreign group is not just selflessly doing an antifascism, chances are they're self-interested and trying to fuck over the people of that country in some way as well. This is why, while I definitely support Afghani people violently resisting the Talibans, I have more trouble supporting the US doing it. This logic also works the other way around when it comes to Palestine attacking Israel, which is why I also don't support the violence of events like Oct 7th, so you can delete the paragraph that you started to write asking me that question. That's the general rule for foreign intervention, but in the case of Israel, Israel is not only "not selflessly doing an antifascism", it's even worse, it's a bunch of far right people trying to reach a population that they want to ethnically cleanse, as we can clearly see from their methods, their words, the result of their actions, or from the fact that they're trying to expand as far as they can the definition of "Hamas supporter" so that they get to kill more Palestinians, as you alluded to in the post. This isn't antifascist violence, this is fascist violence, so clearly I'm not in support of it. Just so we're clear, that was a "no" on you being capable of finding someone who is uncomfortable with killing Hamas militants, so I was right when I said everyone is comfortable with that? Paragraph 1 Glad to see you're still incapable of not being a slave to your assumptions... So what exactly is what I want? Feel free to actually take a stab Paragraph 2. Hamas is the external force, they are a proxy army of Iran, do you dispute it or just ignore it? And then it goes to that they are creating a situation where Israeli's who wouldn't normally be far right are being pushed in that direction. They are supporting the IDF not because they have those ideals but because they are the group fighting back. Paragraph 3 Nothing says your not anti-Israel like calling them a bunch of far right people trying to ethnically cleanse. Is there people in Israel with those beliefs, of course. 25%-45% a significant part. What is the percentage of people in Gaza that want to commit genocide against Israel? What % supported and cheered for the sexual violence, torture and murder? And yet I do not see you making sweeping statements about the Palestinians? Why is that? Here is the rub, if someone actually used your extremely biased logic in the other direction they would support the exact thing that you say you are against. Paragraph 4. I think a lot of people are uncomfortable with killing Hamas members, this is why you have now changed your initial statement and added the word militant. Even then we have a few I'm not sure on, if they were actively killing babies and raping women in Israel, I think no one. If they were sheltered in a tunnel in Gaza, I think quiet a few would be against that. If they were donating money to Hamas, I think lots of people would be against that. If they were hosting tunnel entrances in their homes, I think a lot of people would be against it. That you are against the Hamas members that are actually out there killing babies and raping women is not that far from the "few bad apples" kind of thoughts you profess to hate in other threads. "In the way that you want" was just a turn of phrase, I meant "in the way that you're envisioning when you're writing this paragraph". I didn't mean to imply that you want it, I apologize. To answer your question, I don't think you want many specific things regarding the Palestinian conflict, I think it's much more important to you to disagree with GH me or Drone (and now the other people that you're starting to dislike because of this thread) than any real world stuff. Hamas is obviously not an external force, as it's composed of an absurdly large majority of Palestinians (if not a totality? I don't really know if there's a way to know that, but it doesn't matter). There is no significant percentage of Iranians flocking to Gaza to join Hamas. What a silly claim. "And then it goes to that they are creating a situation where Israeli's who wouldn't normally be far right are being pushed in that direction. They are supporting the IDF not because they have those ideals but because they are the group fighting back." => "This logic also works the other way around when it comes to Palestine attacking Israel, which is why I also don't support the violence of events like Oct 7th, so you can delete the paragraph that you started to write asking me that question." I can't say I'm surprised but come on. Israel is currently run by a far right government, who is operating the war machine. The people who are not far right in Israel are not the people who are running this war, and as such my claim is justified. If you want to call me anti-Israel because I claimed some fascists are fascists, then you can, but I will not be impressed. For a line of fun, notice that you started your post with "Glad to see you're still incapable of not being a slave to your assumptions" and then you ended it with a paragraph about how I'm not comfortable with killing Hamas militants (or members, I don't know what the difference is supposed to be lol) even though I say I am. + Show Spoiler +Appreciate the sorta apology. You got it completely wrong (other than that I don't like three arrogant self righteous pricks who are and continue to be assholes to me, I would be a moronic door mat to not dislike them). I'd say it again, but we both know you would just keep on believing your assumption.
Hamas is a proxy army for Iran, their, weapons, ideology, financing is all Iran, TBH I'm shocked you believe the propaganda. Fatah well flawed is Palestinian and they lost to Hamas, brutally, because of the Iranian backing.
Your bolded part does not counter what I said, I'm not saying you support the attack on Israel, I'm saying you are not applying your logic in both directions. I'm trying to point out the lack of consistency.
And for your last paragraph, I really do not know if it is your reading comprehension (which I doubt but it becoming a more and more realistic option considering how incredibly wrong you get things). I literally explain what I mean, I said you are comfortable killing the people with the guns while they are doing the horrible acts. I'm NOT SURE on the other members of Hamas you are OK with killing of what level of support to Hamas they need to give to meet your level.
I also think that you and the other people in this thread that appear in lock step would likely have different opinions on those thresholds. I also suspect your threshold to when you would enact violence on a "fascist" or supporter of fascism is much different than Hamas. I don't however think you are at GH levels where any communist can kill whoever in his revolution call them a capitalist and be OK. I also don't think you believe all the antisemitic tropes GH does (just with the word capitalist swapped for Jew, to make it more palatable for the lefty). On February 15 2024 22:47 JimmiC wrote:On February 15 2024 11:53 WombaT wrote:On February 15 2024 10:12 JimmiC wrote:On February 15 2024 10:01 FriedrichNietzsche wrote:On February 15 2024 10:00 JimmiC wrote:On February 15 2024 09:51 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
The pro-Israel camp has justified all future deaths regardless of the count and regardless of the destruction. There is no limit. War is peace. The problem with the Israelis are evil fan fiction you keep writing is you miss any nuance making it wholly unrealistic. He did not write that? You are not aware that basically all Israelis are pro Israel? Even the ones who are anti war are pro Israel, basically every Jewish person in the world is pro Israel. So when you write what MP writes you are calling all Israelis and likely all Jewish people evil. Whether or not that is intended or not only he knows, but that is the message he is writing with his hot takes. Within a thread that massively discusses the Israeli/Palestine conflict almost exclusively, I feel contextually ‘pro-Israel camp’ should be pretty likely to be referring to ‘pro Israel’s conduct in this conflict’ rather than ‘pro Israel existing’. And in addition MP goes on to talk specifically about deaths, destruction and indeed war. Sure crossed wires happen, but how did you pivot that all the way over to ‘…likely all Jewish people evil’ being the messaging here? In fairness you did add a caveat regarding intent, but it’s a ludicrously uncharitable interpretation of what he wrote. + Show Spoiler +More or less ludicrous than his interpretation of everyone of Cerebrates posts?
There is plenty of actual bad things the IDF is doing and saying they are doing to talk about that there is no need to pretend someone knows what they “actually want to do”. The power imbalance is such (and MP spent ample time discussing the power imbalance this is why he thinks IDF has all agency and this is Hamas only option) that the IDF can do what every they want. If they actually wanted to kill as many Palestinians as possible they simply would, they easily could.
You can discuss how they are willing to destroy massive amounts of civilian infrastructure to get Hamas. You can discuss how they are willing to kill more civilians, even children, to get Hamas. You can talk about how wrong that is. How it will create an endless loop of hate. There is plenty of other real things you can discuss. But when you start moving into the “they want them all dead” category, you end up dangerously close to the blood libel category of antisemitism. + Show Spoiler +Next there is absolutely no need to be a complete asshole to Cerebrate1 every time he posts. Disagree with what he actually says do not make fan fiction about what MP thinks he really feels, especially when that is so hateful. It basically shows a mirror into how MP feels as Cerebrate1 has never exposed hate.
The interesting thing about this site is you have people all over the world with different backgrounds and experiences. The different opinions are what makes it interesting. Cerebrate has a way more in depth knowledge than anyone else here on the conflict. I’m not saying you have to agree but the bar is pretty low at not transforming everything he says into some hateful message he never gave. On November 20 2023 10:53 JimmiC wrote:On November 20 2023 09:35 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On November 20 2023 08:22 JimmiC wrote:On November 20 2023 06:15 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On November 20 2023 05:53 JimmiC wrote:
What part of my position makes me Pro Israel? You’ve repeatedly said this and I was wondering if you could articulate it. Because me and the others you have listed have some pretty divergent views.
This is the third time you quoted a post and still didnt even adress my questions.. I will as I basically do all the time answer yours.. but it will probably be the last time .. seeing as you dont even have the courtesy to do it yourself.. What part of your position makes you pro israel? You literally felt the need to play the "u are antisemites card" but arent pro Israel? Ok then my man.. Good riddance People who do not like antisemitism are pro Israel? I thought we just called those people not awful. This is why I do not respond to your posts, you clearly have not read any thing I’ve written. Why would I put in the effort when you are just going to shit post about me? From yours I have read that you already know so much more from YouTube videos and this is just a waste of time so your done, but then you just come back and rinse repeat. I never said that. You did also not say that you dont like antisemitism. You said people here were antisemtic ok? So once more you are lying or not that bright (Im sorry for the ad hominem but what else can it be ffs) I mean im sorry but I asked a simple question. Even made it easier with 1) 2) Y/N ect.. So Im a bit confused. I feel like you are evading but.. well.. apparently you dont like to respond to my posts yet half of the time you do.. you just write untrue stuff.. It is really just absurdly annoying at this point. + Show Spoiler +If you don’t want to engage with stop asking me questions by name. It is not a strange request for me to ask you to if you are genuinely interested in my thoughts. And also, it would statistically unbelievable if no one who participates in these threads have antisemitic bias. + Show Spoiler +Sorry not sorry that you can’t handle that or whatever your issue is, just actually follow through of your repeated threat of going away, or at least stop making it. The last one is my personal favorite. You repeatedly employed this argument "well it's statistically unlikely that nobody here is anti-Semitic so...." what a ridiculous thing to say. I'm not saying any of you have a whore for a mother, I'm just saying it would be statistically unlikely if some of you didn't have a mother who gobbles cocks... just saying... lmao Anyway I don't think the record reflects that you "very rarely" bring out the anti-semitism card as you've claimed. Even few of those are me calling people anti-Semites. There are going to be MANY people who ingest anti-Semitism or say anti-Semitic tropes. You are a great example with your "follow the money" comment of way earlier on. It is a anti-Semitic trope but I have not called you anti-Semitic, because as far as I can tell you are not. "Follow the money" is not an anti-Semitic trope lol. Maybe you just see anti-Semitism where you want to see it. Which is, of course, "very rarely." The words in that order alone are not, but how you used it is pretty dicey. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_antisemitismPeople do not just come out and say they are racist's, because no one believes themselves to be. They believe their beliefs are just facts. Does not mean it does not exist and is not constantly present. That being said, I believe you were one of the people arguing against dog whistle racism so I understand why you would not see what I see. You need it to be explicit to believe its happening. The other people do not and would be all over people if they said the same things about of the classes or groups they support.
I'm not sure what post you are even referencing where I said "follow the money" but it's hilarious that you admit that "Follow the money" is not an antisemitic trope but because there are other tropes with Jews and money you feel you can take the liberty of accusing me of using anti-semitic tropes.
I was just making the argument that you overplay the anti-semite card and you end up making the case for me better than I ever could have imagined.
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You've also called it an "antisemitic trope" to call out Israel for genocide / ethnic cleansing. Okay... so hypothetically if they start gassing all the Palestinians is it still anti-semitic to say what we are witnessing is genocidal?
Or do you personally get to decide when what we are witnessing constitutes actual ethnic cleansing vs using anti-semitic tropes?
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Northern Ireland24421 Posts
On April 09 2024 07:40 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2024 07:26 JimmiC wrote:On April 09 2024 07:18 BlackJack wrote:On April 09 2024 06:59 JimmiC wrote:On April 09 2024 06:44 BlackJack wrote:On April 09 2024 05:46 JimmiC wrote:On April 09 2024 04:24 Broetchenholer wrote:On April 08 2024 22:09 JimmiC wrote:On April 08 2024 21:50 stilt wrote:On April 08 2024 05:36 RenSC2 wrote:
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I know that you're partially saying these things sarcastically, but it's also kind of the point that needs to be made. People siding with Palestine are rewarding terrorism. They're telling every fanatic around the world that they can go on a rape, murder, and hostage taking spree and get rewarded for it.
When pressed, people in this thread will say how much they dislike Hamas while at the same time pushing policies that reward Hamas for being genocidal maniacs. It doesn't make sense. Stop rewarding Hamas or at least be open and honest that you side with Hamas's terrorism. Be open that you approve of rape, murder, and kidnapping as a means to get what you want... so long as it happens to the right minority. Because that's what you're doing even while you decry the violence. You can't eat your cake and have it too.
I think differently. Every Palestinian death is the fault of Hamas. The international community needs to stop with its bullshit and place the blame squarely where it needs to go, on Hamas. I know the international community is too cowardly to directly punish Hamas, just as they won't do anything real to stop Russia from invading Ukraine. However, they can at least make it known that Hamas will be blamed for everything and give Israel carte blanche to do whatever it takes to hold Hamas responsible. Punish terrorism. The israelis are genocidal maniac since the ethnic cleasing of 1948. Their contemporan policies of destroying muslim place is linked to the thousands of palestinians jailed without judgment while tsahal is getting away with murdering hundred of palestinians every years including two years old without any consequences way before the 07/10. You're of them as well by the way with your carte blanche stuff, I suppose you're denying the israeli induced famine in gaza as well. It's weird, every advocate for genocide always end up being a negationnist in the end. Wowza, just leading off post with full fledged antisemitism. At least when you take the mask off we don’t have to guess any more. History, for non antisemitic people is not really this one sided or black and white. They were actually being gassed in Europe during this decade, actually being systematically exterminated with the intent to remove them all from existence. You know, actual genocide. Not every one sided overgeneralisation of Israels contribution to the conflict is anti-semitism and you should not pull that card out whenever you disagree with someone vehemently. I would say Israel has continued to move towards an Apartheid state ever since it became the clear winner of the good ole nationalism days and before that some of what they did was excusable due to existential thread and somewhat different times. And you know that yourself, but for some reason, i guess because Nebuchad and GH have taken a lean towards Palestine, you have to find a more extreme position on the other side of the discussion and it's really weird. Your argument is always, i hate Netanyahu, what is happening is bad, i wish it was different, but in this case, i guess Palestinean civilians, international aid workers, Syrians, Journalists, Lebanese they all just have to die. RenSC2 just casually said, that Palestineans should be punished a few decades for what their despots did. Cool. Guess that's the argument you now have to defend. This situation is messy and terrible, there is no simple solution and the ones that have the most uncomplicated opinion of it are almost always wrong. You are trying very hard to have an uncomplicated opinion in the last few pages and whenever you are called out, you seem to double down. Probably because other people here have also had way too uncomplicated opinions before, me certainly, stilt now definately, but also Ren and cerebrate. Like you said, the world is not black and white. Thank goodness I don’t bring it out every time, in fact I bring it out very rarely. This is another thing you can easily check on but doubtful you will. I bring it out when a hateful person says that all Israelis are genocidal and have been since 1948, because it is anti-Semitic Ok, let's check On November 01 2023 23:51 JimmiC wrote:On November 01 2023 23:42 Nebuchad wrote:On November 01 2023 23:29 JimmiC wrote:On November 01 2023 23:23 Nebuchad wrote:On November 01 2023 23:19 JimmiC wrote:
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How kind of you to pull something out of context and treat it as a lone statement.
You can't attack back at just Hamas because of their strategy of imbedding in civilians. Don't be so naive. In the context did you write "I realize that my portrayal of the argument I'm facing as "Israel has no right to strike back at Hamas" was inaccurate"? You would have to read my posts without hate in your heart for me and Israel which seems impossible for you. It is that they can not strike back against Hamas without killing a bunch of innocents. I've been extremely clear about this and you refuse to be remotely fair with me. So I understood correctly, and I'm pointing out that they aren't striking back at Hamas. + Show Spoiler +Nope, they are which is causing massive civilian causalities. I disagree with the approach not it is impossible. I get that it’s easier for you to read what you want to read because of your blatant bias against me and your unconscious antisemitism but it’s not worth my time to go back and forth with you + Show Spoiler +because if I drop to your level I’ll get banned with a PM from Drone calling me an idiot. So good luck and I hope you had a great Halloween last night and at some point are able to come to terms with how you see yourself and your actual beliefs. On November 09 2023 04:22 JimmiC wrote:On November 09 2023 03:44 Godwrath wrote:On November 09 2023 03:40 JimmiC wrote:On November 09 2023 03:32 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2023 03:24 JimmiC wrote:
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But forced displacement alone does not mean ethnic cleansing. And certainly not genocide which is also being used freely.
I think you might want to look up the definition of ethnic cleansing. "Forced displacement" (of an ethnic group) is the first thing that comes up. Yes if they end up forcing all Palestinians out of Gaza that would be ethnic cleansing. That many of you believe it is fact that is the goal is not in fact a fact. Only if it's displacing all of them right? If it's (all - 1) it's not ethnic cleanse. Of course not. But it’s easier for all of you to feel good about your antisemitism and insult me rather than confront it. + Show Spoiler +There is all sorts of awful things happening in the world most of them people from the outside are able to see it from both sides, point out the awful from both sides but also have some empathy towards why that side is doing awful things. I mean it is easy for many of you to easily justify Hamas actions and the people hiding and helping them. Yet zero in the opposite way and if anyone try’s to talk about you have jump down their throats with all sorts of anger and logical fallacy. On March 07 2024 15:33 JimmiC wrote:On March 07 2024 12:52 gobbledydook wrote:On March 07 2024 07:18 JimmiC wrote:On March 07 2024 06:43 WombaT wrote:On March 07 2024 04:56 Ciaus237 wrote:BBC: Israel approves plans for 3,400 new homes in West Bank settlementsDon't really have much to say on this one. It's such blatant settler colonialism, and meanwhile Israel gets little more than a finger-wag from the rest of the world. I think that if my country was in a slightly more politically useful location that apartheid would be ongoing and we'd be getting a blank cheque from the US to sustain it. [quote] It’s the craic like this that is largely indefensible and drives a lot of ire against Israel from folks like yours truly. The issue of security and having a population next door that wishes to do your populace harm, and how to deal with that is a lot less cut and dry and intractable, so I try to demarcate between the two although there is crossover naturally. So long as Israel engages in overt colonialism well, folks will consider them as engaging in overt colonialism. Its probably better to define it as annexation. Colonialism requires they exploit the place for economic reasons, which is not the case. It’s lebensraum right? Straight out of the Nazi playbook Of course not. Were you aware that many consider what you just did there antisemitism, it is a debated topic in academia. + Show Spoiler + On March 08 2024 06:00 JimmiC wrote:On March 08 2024 05:35 Jockmcplop wrote:On March 08 2024 05:27 JimmiC wrote:On March 08 2024 05:21 Salazarz wrote:On March 08 2024 03:17 JimmiC wrote:
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But you can obviously see given the history of the Jews and Nazi's why comparing the two would be problematic no?
Have you not been on the other side of many dog whistle arguments? Why is it problematic to compare modern Israel to Nazis, but not modern Russia? Is that a real question? Because a huge part of the Nazi ideology wasn't and isn't killing all the Russians. ?!?!?!?!?!?!?! If I was to reply to this with: 'No but a huge part of Israel's ideology is killing all the Palestinians' is that a subtle enough comparison to avoid accusations of antisemitism? + Show Spoiler +I mean that would be the antisemitic response to what is going on. Because if it was true they would have done is over and over with their 10 gobillion stronger than everyone army and space lasers.
Like if we talking about not Israel and Jews you would be all over this. Seriously, no point me posting them anymore because it is clear you are not reading them, but there is a shit ton of academic research and papers on antisemitism in the left. And tons of the boxes get checked here fairly regularly. Does that mean lots of people here are antisemites? No it does not, does it mean that many people here are ingesting a lot of antisemitic material without realizing what it is? Yes it does. + Show Spoiler +All the people you have spent calling racists, or saying racist dog whistles, feel exactly like you do right now, crazy isn't it? On March 08 2024 06:37 JimmiC wrote:On March 08 2024 06:32 Nebuchad wrote:On March 08 2024 06:24 JimmiC wrote:On March 08 2024 06:18 Nebuchad wrote:On March 08 2024 06:10 JimmiC wrote:
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As I said to salazar on the last make up, Source it or fuck off.
On March 08 2024 03:17 JimmiC wrote:
But you can obviously see given the history of the Jews and Nazi's why comparing the two would be problematic no?
Have you not been on the other side of many dog whistle arguments? Well right there you said that given the history of the Jews and Nazis it is problematic to compare Israel with Nazis, which in a world where Jews and Israel are clearly separated groups, it isn't. Wow, how embarrassing for you. Wait until you find out how it got started. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_state#:~:text=10 External links-,Overview,for British Palestine in 1947. I've read this wiki page before, it's a good summary of how far right and unequal zionist ideology is at a fundamental level. But I'm not a zionist though, so I'm unsure why I would be embarrassed by it. BTW one of the common ways leftists who are antisemites hide it, is by jus saying things about zionists. Might have ticked all the boxes now, congrats! + Show Spoiler +Seriously you should read up even ifit is just to argue me, at least you will have some basis to do so.
You should be embarrassed because as per usual I didn't say what you accused me of. Israel is a Jewish state, the only one, and this shouldn't be new information. On April 08 2024 22:09 JimmiC wrote:On April 08 2024 21:50 stilt wrote:On April 08 2024 05:36 RenSC2 wrote:On April 07 2024 19:11 Magic Powers wrote:
Isn't it remarkable how Hamas managed to draw so much positive attention to the Palestinian suffering despite only killing 0.012% of Israeli people? It's but a scratch in the Israeli population! Finally Palestinians have a future to look forward to thanks to rapidly growing international support, and virtually no one had to die for it.
It's just so unfortunate that Israel is the literal demonic evil hell-bent on destroying the entire Arabic world, and we must support Hamas in their holy cause that will save the world.
Faulty math is a commonly used tool of apologists and fanatics. We need to be better than that and not fall into the same mental trap. I know that you're partially saying these things sarcastically, but it's also kind of the point that needs to be made. People siding with Palestine are rewarding terrorism. They're telling every fanatic around the world that they can go on a rape, murder, and hostage taking spree and get rewarded for it. When pressed, people in this thread will say how much they dislike Hamas while at the same time pushing policies that reward Hamas for being genocidal maniacs. It doesn't make sense. Stop rewarding Hamas or at least be open and honest that you side with Hamas's terrorism. Be open that you approve of rape, murder, and kidnapping as a means to get what you want... so long as it happens to the right minority. Because that's what you're doing even while you decry the violence. You can't eat your cake and have it too. I think differently. Every Palestinian death is the fault of Hamas. The international community needs to stop with its bullshit and place the blame squarely where it needs to go, on Hamas. I know the international community is too cowardly to directly punish Hamas, just as they won't do anything real to stop Russia from invading Ukraine. However, they can at least make it known that Hamas will be blamed for everything and give Israel carte blanche to do whatever it takes to hold Hamas responsible. Punish terrorism. The israelis are genocidal maniac since the ethnic cleasing of 1948. Their contemporan policies of destroying muslim place is linked to the thousands of palestinians jailed without judgment while tsahal is getting away with murdering hundred of palestinians every years including two years old without any consequences way before the 07/10. You're of them as well by the way with your carte blanche stuff, I suppose you're denying the israeli induced famine in gaza as well. It's weird, every advocate for genocide always end up being a negationnist in the end. Wowza, just leading off post with full fledged antisemitism. At least when you take the mask off we don’t have to guess any more. + Show Spoiler +History, for non antisemitic people is not really this one sided or black and white. They were actually being gassed in Europe during this decade, actually being systematically exterminated with the intent to remove them all from existence. You know, actual genocide. On January 18 2024 05:28 JimmiC wrote:On January 18 2024 04:32 Nebuchad wrote:On January 18 2024 03:59 JimmiC wrote:On January 18 2024 03:32 Nebuchad wrote:On January 18 2024 02:36 JimmiC wrote:
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If Hamas is in Israel currently killing Israelis than people seem to agree killing them is fine. If they are in Gaza and not currently killing Israelis is where the disagreements happen. Some people have stated that Israel should not attack outside of the borders no matter what because that can’t be defense. Others like me have suggested that shouldn’t because the cost of civilian life is too high with their human shield strategy.
Then there are more complicated questions that anti Israeli posters avoid even talking about, like for example, is someone a civilian if they are hosting a tunnel entrance in their house? How much support of Hamas makes a person a legitimate target?
I wonder if your passion for killing fascists and their supporters travels to Hamas supporters?
It does yes, but not in the way that you want.I support violent resistance against authoritarianism the world over, by the people who are the victims of it. When an exterior force comes in and takes up that fight, that is something that I have more trouble with because mechanically what it creates is more support for the authoritarian group, as happened during the war in Afghanistan. People who otherwise wouldn't develop far right ideas see their countrymen being attacked by a foreign force, and naturally side with the group that is doing resistance not because they're very into far right ideas but because that's the group that is fighting back. These types of foreign interventions create more support for authoritarians, and therefore they're counterproductive, so I wouldn't be in support of that violence in principle and I am even less in support of it in practice because usually the foreign group is not just selflessly doing an antifascism, chances are they're self-interested and trying to fuck over the people of that country in some way as well. This is why, while I definitely support Afghani people violently resisting the Talibans, I have more trouble supporting the US doing it. This logic also works the other way around when it comes to Palestine attacking Israel, which is why I also don't support the violence of events like Oct 7th, so you can delete the paragraph that you started to write asking me that question. That's the general rule for foreign intervention, but in the case of Israel, Israel is not only "not selflessly doing an antifascism", it's even worse, it's a bunch of far right people trying to reach a population that they want to ethnically cleanse, as we can clearly see from their methods, their words, the result of their actions, or from the fact that they're trying to expand as far as they can the definition of "Hamas supporter" so that they get to kill more Palestinians, as you alluded to in the post. This isn't antifascist violence, this is fascist violence, so clearly I'm not in support of it. Just so we're clear, that was a "no" on you being capable of finding someone who is uncomfortable with killing Hamas militants, so I was right when I said everyone is comfortable with that? Paragraph 1 Glad to see you're still incapable of not being a slave to your assumptions... So what exactly is what I want? Feel free to actually take a stab Paragraph 2. Hamas is the external force, they are a proxy army of Iran, do you dispute it or just ignore it? And then it goes to that they are creating a situation where Israeli's who wouldn't normally be far right are being pushed in that direction. They are supporting the IDF not because they have those ideals but because they are the group fighting back. Paragraph 3 Nothing says your not anti-Israel like calling them a bunch of far right people trying to ethnically cleanse. Is there people in Israel with those beliefs, of course. 25%-45% a significant part. What is the percentage of people in Gaza that want to commit genocide against Israel? What % supported and cheered for the sexual violence, torture and murder? And yet I do not see you making sweeping statements about the Palestinians? Why is that? Here is the rub, if someone actually used your extremely biased logic in the other direction they would support the exact thing that you say you are against. Paragraph 4. I think a lot of people are uncomfortable with killing Hamas members, this is why you have now changed your initial statement and added the word militant. Even then we have a few I'm not sure on, if they were actively killing babies and raping women in Israel, I think no one. If they were sheltered in a tunnel in Gaza, I think quiet a few would be against that. If they were donating money to Hamas, I think lots of people would be against that. If they were hosting tunnel entrances in their homes, I think a lot of people would be against it. That you are against the Hamas members that are actually out there killing babies and raping women is not that far from the "few bad apples" kind of thoughts you profess to hate in other threads. "In the way that you want" was just a turn of phrase, I meant "in the way that you're envisioning when you're writing this paragraph". I didn't mean to imply that you want it, I apologize. To answer your question, I don't think you want many specific things regarding the Palestinian conflict, I think it's much more important to you to disagree with GH me or Drone (and now the other people that you're starting to dislike because of this thread) than any real world stuff. Hamas is obviously not an external force, as it's composed of an absurdly large majority of Palestinians (if not a totality? I don't really know if there's a way to know that, but it doesn't matter). There is no significant percentage of Iranians flocking to Gaza to join Hamas. What a silly claim. "And then it goes to that they are creating a situation where Israeli's who wouldn't normally be far right are being pushed in that direction. They are supporting the IDF not because they have those ideals but because they are the group fighting back." => "This logic also works the other way around when it comes to Palestine attacking Israel, which is why I also don't support the violence of events like Oct 7th, so you can delete the paragraph that you started to write asking me that question." I can't say I'm surprised but come on. Israel is currently run by a far right government, who is operating the war machine. The people who are not far right in Israel are not the people who are running this war, and as such my claim is justified. If you want to call me anti-Israel because I claimed some fascists are fascists, then you can, but I will not be impressed. For a line of fun, notice that you started your post with "Glad to see you're still incapable of not being a slave to your assumptions" and then you ended it with a paragraph about how I'm not comfortable with killing Hamas militants (or members, I don't know what the difference is supposed to be lol) even though I say I am. + Show Spoiler +Appreciate the sorta apology. You got it completely wrong (other than that I don't like three arrogant self righteous pricks who are and continue to be assholes to me, I would be a moronic door mat to not dislike them). I'd say it again, but we both know you would just keep on believing your assumption.
Hamas is a proxy army for Iran, their, weapons, ideology, financing is all Iran, TBH I'm shocked you believe the propaganda. Fatah well flawed is Palestinian and they lost to Hamas, brutally, because of the Iranian backing.
Your bolded part does not counter what I said, I'm not saying you support the attack on Israel, I'm saying you are not applying your logic in both directions. I'm trying to point out the lack of consistency.
And for your last paragraph, I really do not know if it is your reading comprehension (which I doubt but it becoming a more and more realistic option considering how incredibly wrong you get things). I literally explain what I mean, I said you are comfortable killing the people with the guns while they are doing the horrible acts. I'm NOT SURE on the other members of Hamas you are OK with killing of what level of support to Hamas they need to give to meet your level.
I also think that you and the other people in this thread that appear in lock step would likely have different opinions on those thresholds. I also suspect your threshold to when you would enact violence on a "fascist" or supporter of fascism is much different than Hamas. I don't however think you are at GH levels where any communist can kill whoever in his revolution call them a capitalist and be OK. I also don't think you believe all the antisemitic tropes GH does (just with the word capitalist swapped for Jew, to make it more palatable for the lefty). On February 15 2024 22:47 JimmiC wrote:On February 15 2024 11:53 WombaT wrote:On February 15 2024 10:12 JimmiC wrote:On February 15 2024 10:01 FriedrichNietzsche wrote:On February 15 2024 10:00 JimmiC wrote:
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The problem with the Israelis are evil fan fiction you keep writing is you miss any nuance making it wholly unrealistic. He did not write that? You are not aware that basically all Israelis are pro Israel? Even the ones who are anti war are pro Israel, basically every Jewish person in the world is pro Israel. So when you write what MP writes you are calling all Israelis and likely all Jewish people evil. Whether or not that is intended or not only he knows, but that is the message he is writing with his hot takes. Within a thread that massively discusses the Israeli/Palestine conflict almost exclusively, I feel contextually ‘pro-Israel camp’ should be pretty likely to be referring to ‘pro Israel’s conduct in this conflict’ rather than ‘pro Israel existing’. And in addition MP goes on to talk specifically about deaths, destruction and indeed war. Sure crossed wires happen, but how did you pivot that all the way over to ‘…likely all Jewish people evil’ being the messaging here? In fairness you did add a caveat regarding intent, but it’s a ludicrously uncharitable interpretation of what he wrote. + Show Spoiler +More or less ludicrous than his interpretation of everyone of Cerebrates posts?
There is plenty of actual bad things the IDF is doing and saying they are doing to talk about that there is no need to pretend someone knows what they “actually want to do”. The power imbalance is such (and MP spent ample time discussing the power imbalance this is why he thinks IDF has all agency and this is Hamas only option) that the IDF can do what every they want. If they actually wanted to kill as many Palestinians as possible they simply would, they easily could.
You can discuss how they are willing to destroy massive amounts of civilian infrastructure to get Hamas. You can discuss how they are willing to kill more civilians, even children, to get Hamas. You can talk about how wrong that is. How it will create an endless loop of hate. There is plenty of other real things you can discuss. But when you start moving into the “they want them all dead” category, you end up dangerously close to the blood libel category of antisemitism. + Show Spoiler +Next there is absolutely no need to be a complete asshole to Cerebrate1 every time he posts. Disagree with what he actually says do not make fan fiction about what MP thinks he really feels, especially when that is so hateful. It basically shows a mirror into how MP feels as Cerebrate1 has never exposed hate.
The interesting thing about this site is you have people all over the world with different backgrounds and experiences. The different opinions are what makes it interesting. Cerebrate has a way more in depth knowledge than anyone else here on the conflict. I’m not saying you have to agree but the bar is pretty low at not transforming everything he says into some hateful message he never gave. On November 20 2023 10:53 JimmiC wrote:On November 20 2023 09:35 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On November 20 2023 08:22 JimmiC wrote:On November 20 2023 06:15 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On November 20 2023 05:53 JimmiC wrote:
What part of my position makes me Pro Israel? You’ve repeatedly said this and I was wondering if you could articulate it. Because me and the others you have listed have some pretty divergent views.
This is the third time you quoted a post and still didnt even adress my questions.. I will as I basically do all the time answer yours.. but it will probably be the last time .. seeing as you dont even have the courtesy to do it yourself.. What part of your position makes you pro israel? You literally felt the need to play the "u are antisemites card" but arent pro Israel? Ok then my man.. Good riddance People who do not like antisemitism are pro Israel? I thought we just called those people not awful. This is why I do not respond to your posts, you clearly have not read any thing I’ve written. Why would I put in the effort when you are just going to shit post about me? From yours I have read that you already know so much more from YouTube videos and this is just a waste of time so your done, but then you just come back and rinse repeat. I never said that. You did also not say that you dont like antisemitism. You said people here were antisemtic ok? So once more you are lying or not that bright (Im sorry for the ad hominem but what else can it be ffs) I mean im sorry but I asked a simple question. Even made it easier with 1) 2) Y/N ect.. So Im a bit confused. I feel like you are evading but.. well.. apparently you dont like to respond to my posts yet half of the time you do.. you just write untrue stuff.. It is really just absurdly annoying at this point. + Show Spoiler +If you don’t want to engage with stop asking me questions by name. It is not a strange request for me to ask you to if you are genuinely interested in my thoughts. And also, it would statistically unbelievable if no one who participates in these threads have antisemitic bias. + Show Spoiler +Sorry not sorry that you can’t handle that or whatever your issue is, just actually follow through of your repeated threat of going away, or at least stop making it. The last one is my personal favorite. You repeatedly employed this argument "well it's statistically unlikely that nobody here is anti-Semitic so...." what a ridiculous thing to say. I'm not saying any of you have a whore for a mother, I'm just saying it would be statistically unlikely if some of you didn't have a mother who gobbles cocks... just saying... lmao Anyway I don't think the record reflects that you "very rarely" bring out the anti-semitism card as you've claimed. Even few of those are me calling people anti-Semites. There are going to be MANY people who ingest anti-Semitism or say anti-Semitic tropes. You are a great example with your "follow the money" comment of way earlier on. It is a anti-Semitic trope but I have not called you anti-Semitic, because as far as I can tell you are not. "Follow the money" is not an anti-Semitic trope lol. Maybe you just see anti-Semitism where you want to see it. Which is, of course, "very rarely." The words in that order alone are not, but how you used it is pretty dicey. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_antisemitismPeople do not just come out and say they are racist's, because no one believes themselves to be. They believe their beliefs are just facts. Does not mean it does not exist and is not constantly present. That being said, I believe you were one of the people arguing against dog whistle racism so I understand why you would not see what I see. You need it to be explicit to believe its happening. The other people do not and would be all over people if they said the same things about of the classes or groups they support. I'm not sure what post you are even referencing where I said "follow the money" but it's hilarious that you admit that "Follow the money" is not an antisemitic trope but because there are other tropes with Jews and money you feel you can take the liberty of accusing me of using anti-semitic tropes. I was just making the argument that you overplay the anti-semite card and you end up making the case for me better than I ever could have imagined.
Like obviously there are graduations but it’s really not difficult to differentiate.
Are American Jews politically influential as a lobby? Yes, this is rather provable as an observation.
Are Jews an interconnected hive mind that transcend national boundaries who secretly want to take over the world and are unique in that regard, distinct from more regular forms of nationalism etc?
No like, obviously not. There are innumerable examples to the contrary one can point to.
It’s almost trivially easy to tell the difference between people observing basic reality and when they’re invoking, intentionally or otherwise, actual anti-Semitic sentiment.
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On April 09 2024 08:43 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2024 08:04 BlackJack wrote:
You've also called it an "antisemitic trope" to call out Israel for genocide / ethnic cleansing. Okay... so hypothetically if they start gassing all the Palestinians is it still anti-semitic to say what we are witnessing is genocidal?
Or do you personally get to decide when what we are witnessing constitutes actual ethnic cleansing vs using anti-semitic tropes? No, obviously if they started actually being genocidal , doing what happened to them it would be that. Dumb question for even you.
The question you missed is why should you get to decide where the line is between actual ethnic cleansing / genocide vs anti-Semitic tropes. Why not just have the conversation on whether or not it is actual genocide without repeatedly hinting in the least charitable way that those that disagree with you might hate Jews or listen to people that hate Jews?
It is nice that far right and far right people can get along on who they hate though….
This almost sounds like a thinly veiled attempt to call me a far right person that hates Jews but I can barely comprehend your posts as they are written so I will give it a pass
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On April 09 2024 08:19 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2024 07:40 BlackJack wrote:On April 09 2024 07:26 JimmiC wrote:On April 09 2024 07:18 BlackJack wrote:On April 09 2024 06:59 JimmiC wrote:On April 09 2024 06:44 BlackJack wrote:On April 09 2024 05:46 JimmiC wrote:On April 09 2024 04:24 Broetchenholer wrote:On April 08 2024 22:09 JimmiC wrote:On April 08 2024 21:50 stilt wrote:
[quote]
The israelis are genocidal maniac since the ethnic cleasing of 1948. Their contemporan policies of destroying muslim place is linked to the thousands of palestinians jailed without judgment while tsahal is getting away with murdering hundred of palestinians every years including two years old without any consequences way before the 07/10.
You're of them as well by the way with your carte blanche stuff, I suppose you're denying the israeli induced famine in gaza as well.
It's weird, every advocate for genocide always end up being a negationnist in the end. Wowza, just leading off post with full fledged antisemitism. At least when you take the mask off we don’t have to guess any more. History, for non antisemitic people is not really this one sided or black and white. They were actually being gassed in Europe during this decade, actually being systematically exterminated with the intent to remove them all from existence. You know, actual genocide. Not every one sided overgeneralisation of Israels contribution to the conflict is anti-semitism and you should not pull that card out whenever you disagree with someone vehemently. I would say Israel has continued to move towards an Apartheid state ever since it became the clear winner of the good ole nationalism days and before that some of what they did was excusable due to existential thread and somewhat different times. And you know that yourself, but for some reason, i guess because Nebuchad and GH have taken a lean towards Palestine, you have to find a more extreme position on the other side of the discussion and it's really weird. Your argument is always, i hate Netanyahu, what is happening is bad, i wish it was different, but in this case, i guess Palestinean civilians, international aid workers, Syrians, Journalists, Lebanese they all just have to die. RenSC2 just casually said, that Palestineans should be punished a few decades for what their despots did. Cool. Guess that's the argument you now have to defend. This situation is messy and terrible, there is no simple solution and the ones that have the most uncomplicated opinion of it are almost always wrong. You are trying very hard to have an uncomplicated opinion in the last few pages and whenever you are called out, you seem to double down. Probably because other people here have also had way too uncomplicated opinions before, me certainly, stilt now definately, but also Ren and cerebrate. Like you said, the world is not black and white. Thank goodness I don’t bring it out every time, in fact I bring it out very rarely. This is another thing you can easily check on but doubtful you will. I bring it out when a hateful person says that all Israelis are genocidal and have been since 1948, because it is anti-Semitic Ok, let's check On November 01 2023 23:51 JimmiC wrote:On November 01 2023 23:42 Nebuchad wrote:On November 01 2023 23:29 JimmiC wrote:On November 01 2023 23:23 Nebuchad wrote:
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In the context did you write "I realize that my portrayal of the argument I'm facing as "Israel has no right to strike back at Hamas" was inaccurate"? You would have to read my posts without hate in your heart for me and Israel which seems impossible for you. It is that they can not strike back against Hamas without killing a bunch of innocents. I've been extremely clear about this and you refuse to be remotely fair with me. So I understood correctly, and I'm pointing out that they aren't striking back at Hamas. + Show Spoiler +Nope, they are which is causing massive civilian causalities. I disagree with the approach not it is impossible. I get that it’s easier for you to read what you want to read because of your blatant bias against me and your unconscious antisemitism but it’s not worth my time to go back and forth with you + Show Spoiler +because if I drop to your level I’ll get banned with a PM from Drone calling me an idiot. So good luck and I hope you had a great Halloween last night and at some point are able to come to terms with how you see yourself and your actual beliefs. On November 09 2023 04:22 JimmiC wrote:On November 09 2023 03:44 Godwrath wrote:On November 09 2023 03:40 JimmiC wrote:On November 09 2023 03:32 Magic Powers wrote:
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I think you might want to look up the definition of ethnic cleansing. "Forced displacement" (of an ethnic group) is the first thing that comes up. Yes if they end up forcing all Palestinians out of Gaza that would be ethnic cleansing. That many of you believe it is fact that is the goal is not in fact a fact. Only if it's displacing all of them right? If it's (all - 1) it's not ethnic cleanse. Of course not. But it’s easier for all of you to feel good about your antisemitism and insult me rather than confront it. + Show Spoiler +There is all sorts of awful things happening in the world most of them people from the outside are able to see it from both sides, point out the awful from both sides but also have some empathy towards why that side is doing awful things. I mean it is easy for many of you to easily justify Hamas actions and the people hiding and helping them. Yet zero in the opposite way and if anyone try’s to talk about you have jump down their throats with all sorts of anger and logical fallacy. On March 07 2024 15:33 JimmiC wrote:On March 07 2024 12:52 gobbledydook wrote:On March 07 2024 07:18 JimmiC wrote:On March 07 2024 06:43 WombaT wrote:
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It’s the craic like this that is largely indefensible and drives a lot of ire against Israel from folks like yours truly.
The issue of security and having a population next door that wishes to do your populace harm, and how to deal with that is a lot less cut and dry and intractable, so I try to demarcate between the two although there is crossover naturally.
So long as Israel engages in overt colonialism well, folks will consider them as engaging in overt colonialism. Its probably better to define it as annexation. Colonialism requires they exploit the place for economic reasons, which is not the case. It’s lebensraum right? Straight out of the Nazi playbook Of course not. Were you aware that many consider what you just did there antisemitism, it is a debated topic in academia. + Show Spoiler + On March 08 2024 06:00 JimmiC wrote:On March 08 2024 05:35 Jockmcplop wrote:On March 08 2024 05:27 JimmiC wrote:On March 08 2024 05:21 Salazarz wrote:
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Why is it problematic to compare modern Israel to Nazis, but not modern Russia? Is that a real question? Because a huge part of the Nazi ideology wasn't and isn't killing all the Russians. ?!?!?!?!?!?!?! If I was to reply to this with: 'No but a huge part of Israel's ideology is killing all the Palestinians' is that a subtle enough comparison to avoid accusations of antisemitism? + Show Spoiler +I mean that would be the antisemitic response to what is going on. Because if it was true they would have done is over and over with their 10 gobillion stronger than everyone army and space lasers.
Like if we talking about not Israel and Jews you would be all over this. Seriously, no point me posting them anymore because it is clear you are not reading them, but there is a shit ton of academic research and papers on antisemitism in the left. And tons of the boxes get checked here fairly regularly. Does that mean lots of people here are antisemites? No it does not, does it mean that many people here are ingesting a lot of antisemitic material without realizing what it is? Yes it does. + Show Spoiler +All the people you have spent calling racists, or saying racist dog whistles, feel exactly like you do right now, crazy isn't it? On March 08 2024 06:37 JimmiC wrote:On March 08 2024 06:32 Nebuchad wrote:I've read this wiki page before, it's a good summary of how far right and unequal zionist ideology is at a fundamental level. But I'm not a zionist though, so I'm unsure why I would be embarrassed by it. BTW one of the common ways leftists who are antisemites hide it, is by jus saying things about zionists. Might have ticked all the boxes now, congrats! + Show Spoiler +Seriously you should read up even ifit is just to argue me, at least you will have some basis to do so.
You should be embarrassed because as per usual I didn't say what you accused me of. Israel is a Jewish state, the only one, and this shouldn't be new information. On April 08 2024 22:09 JimmiC wrote:On April 08 2024 21:50 stilt wrote:On April 08 2024 05:36 RenSC2 wrote:On April 07 2024 19:11 Magic Powers wrote:
Isn't it remarkable how Hamas managed to draw so much positive attention to the Palestinian suffering despite only killing 0.012% of Israeli people? It's but a scratch in the Israeli population! Finally Palestinians have a future to look forward to thanks to rapidly growing international support, and virtually no one had to die for it.
It's just so unfortunate that Israel is the literal demonic evil hell-bent on destroying the entire Arabic world, and we must support Hamas in their holy cause that will save the world.
Faulty math is a commonly used tool of apologists and fanatics. We need to be better than that and not fall into the same mental trap. I know that you're partially saying these things sarcastically, but it's also kind of the point that needs to be made. People siding with Palestine are rewarding terrorism. They're telling every fanatic around the world that they can go on a rape, murder, and hostage taking spree and get rewarded for it. When pressed, people in this thread will say how much they dislike Hamas while at the same time pushing policies that reward Hamas for being genocidal maniacs. It doesn't make sense. Stop rewarding Hamas or at least be open and honest that you side with Hamas's terrorism. Be open that you approve of rape, murder, and kidnapping as a means to get what you want... so long as it happens to the right minority. Because that's what you're doing even while you decry the violence. You can't eat your cake and have it too. I think differently. Every Palestinian death is the fault of Hamas. The international community needs to stop with its bullshit and place the blame squarely where it needs to go, on Hamas. I know the international community is too cowardly to directly punish Hamas, just as they won't do anything real to stop Russia from invading Ukraine. However, they can at least make it known that Hamas will be blamed for everything and give Israel carte blanche to do whatever it takes to hold Hamas responsible. Punish terrorism. The israelis are genocidal maniac since the ethnic cleasing of 1948. Their contemporan policies of destroying muslim place is linked to the thousands of palestinians jailed without judgment while tsahal is getting away with murdering hundred of palestinians every years including two years old without any consequences way before the 07/10. You're of them as well by the way with your carte blanche stuff, I suppose you're denying the israeli induced famine in gaza as well. It's weird, every advocate for genocide always end up being a negationnist in the end. Wowza, just leading off post with full fledged antisemitism. At least when you take the mask off we don’t have to guess any more. + Show Spoiler +History, for non antisemitic people is not really this one sided or black and white. They were actually being gassed in Europe during this decade, actually being systematically exterminated with the intent to remove them all from existence. You know, actual genocide. On January 18 2024 05:28 JimmiC wrote:On January 18 2024 04:32 Nebuchad wrote:On January 18 2024 03:59 JimmiC wrote:On January 18 2024 03:32 Nebuchad wrote:
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It does yes, but not in the way that you want.
I support violent resistance against authoritarianism the world over, by the people who are the victims of it. When an exterior force comes in and takes up that fight, that is something that I have more trouble with because mechanically what it creates is more support for the authoritarian group, as happened during the war in Afghanistan. People who otherwise wouldn't develop far right ideas see their countrymen being attacked by a foreign force, and naturally side with the group that is doing resistance not because they're very into far right ideas but because that's the group that is fighting back. These types of foreign interventions create more support for authoritarians, and therefore they're counterproductive, so I wouldn't be in support of that violence in principle and I am even less in support of it in practice because usually the foreign group is not just selflessly doing an antifascism, chances are they're self-interested and trying to fuck over the people of that country in some way as well. This is why, while I definitely support Afghani people violently resisting the Talibans, I have more trouble supporting the US doing it. This logic also works the other way around when it comes to Palestine attacking Israel, which is why I also don't support the violence of events like Oct 7th, so you can delete the paragraph that you started to write asking me that question.
That's the general rule for foreign intervention, but in the case of Israel, Israel is not only "not selflessly doing an antifascism", it's even worse, it's a bunch of far right people trying to reach a population that they want to ethnically cleanse, as we can clearly see from their methods, their words, the result of their actions, or from the fact that they're trying to expand as far as they can the definition of "Hamas supporter" so that they get to kill more Palestinians, as you alluded to in the post. This isn't antifascist violence, this is fascist violence, so clearly I'm not in support of it.
Just so we're clear, that was a "no" on you being capable of finding someone who is uncomfortable with killing Hamas militants, so I was right when I said everyone is comfortable with that? Paragraph 1 Glad to see you're still incapable of not being a slave to your assumptions... So what exactly is what I want? Feel free to actually take a stab Paragraph 2. Hamas is the external force, they are a proxy army of Iran, do you dispute it or just ignore it? And then it goes to that they are creating a situation where Israeli's who wouldn't normally be far right are being pushed in that direction. They are supporting the IDF not because they have those ideals but because they are the group fighting back. Paragraph 3 Nothing says your not anti-Israel like calling them a bunch of far right people trying to ethnically cleanse. Is there people in Israel with those beliefs, of course. 25%-45% a significant part. What is the percentage of people in Gaza that want to commit genocide against Israel? What % supported and cheered for the sexual violence, torture and murder? And yet I do not see you making sweeping statements about the Palestinians? Why is that? Here is the rub, if someone actually used your extremely biased logic in the other direction they would support the exact thing that you say you are against. Paragraph 4. I think a lot of people are uncomfortable with killing Hamas members, this is why you have now changed your initial statement and added the word militant. Even then we have a few I'm not sure on, if they were actively killing babies and raping women in Israel, I think no one. If they were sheltered in a tunnel in Gaza, I think quiet a few would be against that. If they were donating money to Hamas, I think lots of people would be against that. If they were hosting tunnel entrances in their homes, I think a lot of people would be against it. That you are against the Hamas members that are actually out there killing babies and raping women is not that far from the "few bad apples" kind of thoughts you profess to hate in other threads. "In the way that you want" was just a turn of phrase, I meant "in the way that you're envisioning when you're writing this paragraph". I didn't mean to imply that you want it, I apologize. To answer your question, I don't think you want many specific things regarding the Palestinian conflict, I think it's much more important to you to disagree with GH me or Drone (and now the other people that you're starting to dislike because of this thread) than any real world stuff. Hamas is obviously not an external force, as it's composed of an absurdly large majority of Palestinians (if not a totality? I don't really know if there's a way to know that, but it doesn't matter). There is no significant percentage of Iranians flocking to Gaza to join Hamas. What a silly claim. "And then it goes to that they are creating a situation where Israeli's who wouldn't normally be far right are being pushed in that direction. They are supporting the IDF not because they have those ideals but because they are the group fighting back." => "This logic also works the other way around when it comes to Palestine attacking Israel, which is why I also don't support the violence of events like Oct 7th, so you can delete the paragraph that you started to write asking me that question." I can't say I'm surprised but come on. Israel is currently run by a far right government, who is operating the war machine. The people who are not far right in Israel are not the people who are running this war, and as such my claim is justified. If you want to call me anti-Israel because I claimed some fascists are fascists, then you can, but I will not be impressed. For a line of fun, notice that you started your post with "Glad to see you're still incapable of not being a slave to your assumptions" and then you ended it with a paragraph about how I'm not comfortable with killing Hamas militants (or members, I don't know what the difference is supposed to be lol) even though I say I am. + Show Spoiler +Appreciate the sorta apology. You got it completely wrong (other than that I don't like three arrogant self righteous pricks who are and continue to be assholes to me, I would be a moronic door mat to not dislike them). I'd say it again, but we both know you would just keep on believing your assumption.
Hamas is a proxy army for Iran, their, weapons, ideology, financing is all Iran, TBH I'm shocked you believe the propaganda. Fatah well flawed is Palestinian and they lost to Hamas, brutally, because of the Iranian backing.
Your bolded part does not counter what I said, I'm not saying you support the attack on Israel, I'm saying you are not applying your logic in both directions. I'm trying to point out the lack of consistency.
And for your last paragraph, I really do not know if it is your reading comprehension (which I doubt but it becoming a more and more realistic option considering how incredibly wrong you get things). I literally explain what I mean, I said you are comfortable killing the people with the guns while they are doing the horrible acts. I'm NOT SURE on the other members of Hamas you are OK with killing of what level of support to Hamas they need to give to meet your level.
I also think that you and the other people in this thread that appear in lock step would likely have different opinions on those thresholds. I also suspect your threshold to when you would enact violence on a "fascist" or supporter of fascism is much different than Hamas. I don't however think you are at GH levels where any communist can kill whoever in his revolution call them a capitalist and be OK. I also don't think you believe all the antisemitic tropes GH does (just with the word capitalist swapped for Jew, to make it more palatable for the lefty). On February 15 2024 22:47 JimmiC wrote:On February 15 2024 11:53 WombaT wrote:On February 15 2024 10:12 JimmiC wrote:On February 15 2024 10:01 FriedrichNietzsche wrote:
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He did not write that? You are not aware that basically all Israelis are pro Israel? Even the ones who are anti war are pro Israel, basically every Jewish person in the world is pro Israel. So when you write what MP writes you are calling all Israelis and likely all Jewish people evil. Whether or not that is intended or not only he knows, but that is the message he is writing with his hot takes. Within a thread that massively discusses the Israeli/Palestine conflict almost exclusively, I feel contextually ‘pro-Israel camp’ should be pretty likely to be referring to ‘pro Israel’s conduct in this conflict’ rather than ‘pro Israel existing’. And in addition MP goes on to talk specifically about deaths, destruction and indeed war. Sure crossed wires happen, but how did you pivot that all the way over to ‘…likely all Jewish people evil’ being the messaging here? In fairness you did add a caveat regarding intent, but it’s a ludicrously uncharitable interpretation of what he wrote. + Show Spoiler +More or less ludicrous than his interpretation of everyone of Cerebrates posts?
There is plenty of actual bad things the IDF is doing and saying they are doing to talk about that there is no need to pretend someone knows what they “actually want to do”. The power imbalance is such (and MP spent ample time discussing the power imbalance this is why he thinks IDF has all agency and this is Hamas only option) that the IDF can do what every they want. If they actually wanted to kill as many Palestinians as possible they simply would, they easily could.
You can discuss how they are willing to destroy massive amounts of civilian infrastructure to get Hamas. You can discuss how they are willing to kill more civilians, even children, to get Hamas. You can talk about how wrong that is. How it will create an endless loop of hate. There is plenty of other real things you can discuss. But when you start moving into the “they want them all dead” category, you end up dangerously close to the blood libel category of antisemitism. + Show Spoiler +Next there is absolutely no need to be a complete asshole to Cerebrate1 every time he posts. Disagree with what he actually says do not make fan fiction about what MP thinks he really feels, especially when that is so hateful. It basically shows a mirror into how MP feels as Cerebrate1 has never exposed hate.
The interesting thing about this site is you have people all over the world with different backgrounds and experiences. The different opinions are what makes it interesting. Cerebrate has a way more in depth knowledge than anyone else here on the conflict. I’m not saying you have to agree but the bar is pretty low at not transforming everything he says into some hateful message he never gave. On November 20 2023 10:53 JimmiC wrote:On November 20 2023 09:35 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On November 20 2023 08:22 JimmiC wrote:On November 20 2023 06:15 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
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This is the third time you quoted a post and still didnt even adress my questions.. I will as I basically do all the time answer yours.. but it will probably be the last time .. seeing as you dont even have the courtesy to do it yourself..
What part of your position makes you pro israel? You literally felt the need to play the "u are antisemites card" but arent pro Israel?
Ok then my man.. Good riddance
People who do not like antisemitism are pro Israel? I thought we just called those people not awful. This is why I do not respond to your posts, you clearly have not read any thing I’ve written. Why would I put in the effort when you are just going to shit post about me? From yours I have read that you already know so much more from YouTube videos and this is just a waste of time so your done, but then you just come back and rinse repeat. I never said that. You did also not say that you dont like antisemitism. You said people here were antisemtic ok? So once more you are lying or not that bright (Im sorry for the ad hominem but what else can it be ffs) I mean im sorry but I asked a simple question. Even made it easier with 1) 2) Y/N ect.. So Im a bit confused. I feel like you are evading but.. well.. apparently you dont like to respond to my posts yet half of the time you do.. you just write untrue stuff.. It is really just absurdly annoying at this point. + Show Spoiler +If you don’t want to engage with stop asking me questions by name. It is not a strange request for me to ask you to if you are genuinely interested in my thoughts. And also, it would statistically unbelievable if no one who participates in these threads have antisemitic bias. + Show Spoiler +Sorry not sorry that you can’t handle that or whatever your issue is, just actually follow through of your repeated threat of going away, or at least stop making it. The last one is my personal favorite. You repeatedly employed this argument "well it's statistically unlikely that nobody here is anti-Semitic so...." what a ridiculous thing to say. I'm not saying any of you have a whore for a mother, I'm just saying it would be statistically unlikely if some of you didn't have a mother who gobbles cocks... just saying... lmao Anyway I don't think the record reflects that you "very rarely" bring out the anti-semitism card as you've claimed. Even few of those are me calling people anti-Semites. There are going to be MANY people who ingest anti-Semitism or say anti-Semitic tropes. You are a great example with your "follow the money" comment of way earlier on. It is a anti-Semitic trope but I have not called you anti-Semitic, because as far as I can tell you are not. "Follow the money" is not an anti-Semitic trope lol. Maybe you just see anti-Semitism where you want to see it. Which is, of course, "very rarely." The words in that order alone are not, but how you used it is pretty dicey. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_antisemitismPeople do not just come out and say they are racist's, because no one believes themselves to be. They believe their beliefs are just facts. Does not mean it does not exist and is not constantly present. That being said, I believe you were one of the people arguing against dog whistle racism so I understand why you would not see what I see. You need it to be explicit to believe its happening. The other people do not and would be all over people if they said the same things about of the classes or groups they support. I'm not sure what post you are even referencing where I said "follow the money" but it's hilarious that you admit that "Follow the money" is not an antisemitic trope but because there are other tropes with Jews and money you feel you can take the liberty of accusing me of using anti-semitic tropes. I was just making the argument that you overplay the anti-semite card and you end up making the case for me better than I ever could have imagined. Like obviously there are graduations but it’s really not difficult to differentiate. Are American Jews politically influential as a lobby? Yes, this is rather provable as an observation. Are Jews an interconnected hive mind that transcend national boundaries who secretly want to take over the world and are unique in that regard, distinct from more regular forms of nationalism etc? No like, obviously not. There are innumerable examples to the contrary one can point to. It’s almost trivially easy to tell the difference between people observing basic reality and when they’re invoking, intentionally or otherwise, actual anti-Semitic sentiment.
I’m sure I’ve sufficiently ranted about how I feel these types of arguments dominate the discourse, at least on this side of the pond. Disagree with me on the border, you’re a xenophobe. Disagree with me on trans athletes in women’s sports you’re a transphobe. Disagree with me on abortion you’re a misogynist. The list goes on forever. The goal is not to engage in good faith, the goal is to label whoever they are arguing with as an undesirable so they can wholly dismiss what they are saying and declare themselves triumphant and morally superior. They see it as an auto-win trump card in debates, I see it as obnoxious.
Usually these arguments are coming out of the left and directed by people at the right. I could take pleasure in seeing them now get a taste of their own medicine by being called anti-Semites, and I do, but I’d trade it all back to not have to see these stupid arguments at all.
Here you don’t really have a lot of people that use this kind of argumentation. Maybe because people don’t need to stoop to that or maybe because we don’t have a lot of overtly racist, misogynistic etc people. But you still see a little of “I’m not saying you’re an anti-Semite you’re just saying things that an anti-Semite might say” or “I’m not saying you’re an antivaxxer you’re just posting something you might read on an antivax forum. Like some kind of weird guilt-by-association when there really isn’t even any association.
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On April 09 2024 13:36 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2024 08:19 WombaT wrote:On April 09 2024 07:40 BlackJack wrote:On April 09 2024 07:26 JimmiC wrote:On April 09 2024 07:18 BlackJack wrote:On April 09 2024 06:59 JimmiC wrote:On April 09 2024 06:44 BlackJack wrote:On April 09 2024 05:46 JimmiC wrote:On April 09 2024 04:24 Broetchenholer wrote:On April 08 2024 22:09 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
Wowza, just leading off post with full fledged antisemitism. At least when you take the mask off we don’t have to guess any more.
History, for non antisemitic people is not really this one sided or black and white. They were actually being gassed in Europe during this decade, actually being systematically exterminated with the intent to remove them all from existence. You know, actual genocide. Not every one sided overgeneralisation of Israels contribution to the conflict is anti-semitism and you should not pull that card out whenever you disagree with someone vehemently. I would say Israel has continued to move towards an Apartheid state ever since it became the clear winner of the good ole nationalism days and before that some of what they did was excusable due to existential thread and somewhat different times. And you know that yourself, but for some reason, i guess because Nebuchad and GH have taken a lean towards Palestine, you have to find a more extreme position on the other side of the discussion and it's really weird. Your argument is always, i hate Netanyahu, what is happening is bad, i wish it was different, but in this case, i guess Palestinean civilians, international aid workers, Syrians, Journalists, Lebanese they all just have to die. RenSC2 just casually said, that Palestineans should be punished a few decades for what their despots did. Cool. Guess that's the argument you now have to defend. This situation is messy and terrible, there is no simple solution and the ones that have the most uncomplicated opinion of it are almost always wrong. You are trying very hard to have an uncomplicated opinion in the last few pages and whenever you are called out, you seem to double down. Probably because other people here have also had way too uncomplicated opinions before, me certainly, stilt now definately, but also Ren and cerebrate. Like you said, the world is not black and white. Thank goodness I don’t bring it out every time, in fact I bring it out very rarely. This is another thing you can easily check on but doubtful you will. I bring it out when a hateful person says that all Israelis are genocidal and have been since 1948, because it is anti-Semitic Ok, let's check On November 01 2023 23:51 JimmiC wrote:On November 01 2023 23:42 Nebuchad wrote:On November 01 2023 23:29 JimmiC wrote:
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You would have to read my posts without hate in your heart for me and Israel which seems impossible for you. It is that they can not strike back against Hamas without killing a bunch of innocents. I've been extremely clear about this and you refuse to be remotely fair with me. So I understood correctly, and I'm pointing out that they aren't striking back at Hamas. + Show Spoiler +Nope, they are which is causing massive civilian causalities. I disagree with the approach not it is impossible. I get that it’s easier for you to read what you want to read because of your blatant bias against me and your unconscious antisemitism but it’s not worth my time to go back and forth with you + Show Spoiler +because if I drop to your level I’ll get banned with a PM from Drone calling me an idiot. So good luck and I hope you had a great Halloween last night and at some point are able to come to terms with how you see yourself and your actual beliefs. On November 09 2023 04:22 JimmiC wrote:On November 09 2023 03:44 Godwrath wrote:On November 09 2023 03:40 JimmiC wrote:
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Yes if they end up forcing all Palestinians out of Gaza that would be ethnic cleansing. That many of you believe it is fact that is the goal is not in fact a fact. Only if it's displacing all of them right? If it's (all - 1) it's not ethnic cleanse. Of course not. But it’s easier for all of you to feel good about your antisemitism and insult me rather than confront it. + Show Spoiler +There is all sorts of awful things happening in the world most of them people from the outside are able to see it from both sides, point out the awful from both sides but also have some empathy towards why that side is doing awful things. I mean it is easy for many of you to easily justify Hamas actions and the people hiding and helping them. Yet zero in the opposite way and if anyone try’s to talk about you have jump down their throats with all sorts of anger and logical fallacy. On March 07 2024 15:33 JimmiC wrote:On March 07 2024 12:52 gobbledydook wrote:On March 07 2024 07:18 JimmiC wrote:
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Its probably better to define it as annexation. Colonialism requires they exploit the place for economic reasons, which is not the case. It’s lebensraum right? Straight out of the Nazi playbook Of course not. Were you aware that many consider what you just did there antisemitism, it is a debated topic in academia. + Show Spoiler + On March 08 2024 06:00 JimmiC wrote:On March 08 2024 05:35 Jockmcplop wrote:On March 08 2024 05:27 JimmiC wrote:
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Is that a real question?
Because a huge part of the Nazi ideology wasn't and isn't killing all the Russians.
?!?!?!?!?!?!?! If I was to reply to this with: 'No but a huge part of Israel's ideology is killing all the Palestinians' is that a subtle enough comparison to avoid accusations of antisemitism? + Show Spoiler +I mean that would be the antisemitic response to what is going on. Because if it was true they would have done is over and over with their 10 gobillion stronger than everyone army and space lasers.
Like if we talking about not Israel and Jews you would be all over this. Seriously, no point me posting them anymore because it is clear you are not reading them, but there is a shit ton of academic research and papers on antisemitism in the left. And tons of the boxes get checked here fairly regularly. Does that mean lots of people here are antisemites? No it does not, does it mean that many people here are ingesting a lot of antisemitic material without realizing what it is? Yes it does. + Show Spoiler +All the people you have spent calling racists, or saying racist dog whistles, feel exactly like you do right now, crazy isn't it? On March 08 2024 06:37 JimmiC wrote:On March 08 2024 06:32 Nebuchad wrote:I've read this wiki page before, it's a good summary of how far right and unequal zionist ideology is at a fundamental level. But I'm not a zionist though, so I'm unsure why I would be embarrassed by it. BTW one of the common ways leftists who are antisemites hide it, is by jus saying things about zionists. Might have ticked all the boxes now, congrats! + Show Spoiler +Seriously you should read up even ifit is just to argue me, at least you will have some basis to do so.
You should be embarrassed because as per usual I didn't say what you accused me of. Israel is a Jewish state, the only one, and this shouldn't be new information. On April 08 2024 22:09 JimmiC wrote:On April 08 2024 21:50 stilt wrote:On April 08 2024 05:36 RenSC2 wrote:
[quote]
I know that you're partially saying these things sarcastically, but it's also kind of the point that needs to be made. People siding with Palestine are rewarding terrorism. They're telling every fanatic around the world that they can go on a rape, murder, and hostage taking spree and get rewarded for it.
When pressed, people in this thread will say how much they dislike Hamas while at the same time pushing policies that reward Hamas for being genocidal maniacs. It doesn't make sense. Stop rewarding Hamas or at least be open and honest that you side with Hamas's terrorism. Be open that you approve of rape, murder, and kidnapping as a means to get what you want... so long as it happens to the right minority. Because that's what you're doing even while you decry the violence. You can't eat your cake and have it too.
I think differently. Every Palestinian death is the fault of Hamas. The international community needs to stop with its bullshit and place the blame squarely where it needs to go, on Hamas. I know the international community is too cowardly to directly punish Hamas, just as they won't do anything real to stop Russia from invading Ukraine. However, they can at least make it known that Hamas will be blamed for everything and give Israel carte blanche to do whatever it takes to hold Hamas responsible. Punish terrorism. The israelis are genocidal maniac since the ethnic cleasing of 1948. Their contemporan policies of destroying muslim place is linked to the thousands of palestinians jailed without judgment while tsahal is getting away with murdering hundred of palestinians every years including two years old without any consequences way before the 07/10. You're of them as well by the way with your carte blanche stuff, I suppose you're denying the israeli induced famine in gaza as well. It's weird, every advocate for genocide always end up being a negationnist in the end. Wowza, just leading off post with full fledged antisemitism. At least when you take the mask off we don’t have to guess any more. + Show Spoiler +History, for non antisemitic people is not really this one sided or black and white. They were actually being gassed in Europe during this decade, actually being systematically exterminated with the intent to remove them all from existence. You know, actual genocide. On January 18 2024 05:28 JimmiC wrote:On January 18 2024 04:32 Nebuchad wrote:On January 18 2024 03:59 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
Paragraph 1
Glad to see you're still incapable of not being a slave to your assumptions... So what exactly is what I want? Feel free to actually take a stab
Paragraph 2.
Hamas is the external force, they are a proxy army of Iran, do you dispute it or just ignore it? And then it goes to that they are creating a situation where Israeli's who wouldn't normally be far right are being pushed in that direction. They are supporting the IDF not because they have those ideals but because they are the group fighting back.
Paragraph 3
Nothing says your not anti-Israel like calling them a bunch of far right people trying to ethnically cleanse. Is there people in Israel with those beliefs, of course. 25%-45% a significant part. What is the percentage of people in Gaza that want to commit genocide against Israel? What % supported and cheered for the sexual violence, torture and murder? And yet I do not see you making sweeping statements about the Palestinians? Why is that?
Here is the rub, if someone actually used your extremely biased logic in the other direction they would support the exact thing that you say you are against.
Paragraph 4.
I think a lot of people are uncomfortable with killing Hamas members, this is why you have now changed your initial statement and added the word militant. Even then we have a few I'm not sure on, if they were actively killing babies and raping women in Israel, I think no one. If they were sheltered in a tunnel in Gaza, I think quiet a few would be against that. If they were donating money to Hamas, I think lots of people would be against that. If they were hosting tunnel entrances in their homes, I think a lot of people would be against it.
That you are against the Hamas members that are actually out there killing babies and raping women is not that far from the "few bad apples" kind of thoughts you profess to hate in other threads.
"In the way that you want" was just a turn of phrase, I meant "in the way that you're envisioning when you're writing this paragraph". I didn't mean to imply that you want it, I apologize. To answer your question, I don't think you want many specific things regarding the Palestinian conflict, I think it's much more important to you to disagree with GH me or Drone (and now the other people that you're starting to dislike because of this thread) than any real world stuff. Hamas is obviously not an external force, as it's composed of an absurdly large majority of Palestinians (if not a totality? I don't really know if there's a way to know that, but it doesn't matter). There is no significant percentage of Iranians flocking to Gaza to join Hamas. What a silly claim. "And then it goes to that they are creating a situation where Israeli's who wouldn't normally be far right are being pushed in that direction. They are supporting the IDF not because they have those ideals but because they are the group fighting back." => "This logic also works the other way around when it comes to Palestine attacking Israel, which is why I also don't support the violence of events like Oct 7th, so you can delete the paragraph that you started to write asking me that question." I can't say I'm surprised but come on. Israel is currently run by a far right government, who is operating the war machine. The people who are not far right in Israel are not the people who are running this war, and as such my claim is justified. If you want to call me anti-Israel because I claimed some fascists are fascists, then you can, but I will not be impressed. For a line of fun, notice that you started your post with "Glad to see you're still incapable of not being a slave to your assumptions" and then you ended it with a paragraph about how I'm not comfortable with killing Hamas militants (or members, I don't know what the difference is supposed to be lol) even though I say I am. + Show Spoiler +Appreciate the sorta apology. You got it completely wrong (other than that I don't like three arrogant self righteous pricks who are and continue to be assholes to me, I would be a moronic door mat to not dislike them). I'd say it again, but we both know you would just keep on believing your assumption.
Hamas is a proxy army for Iran, their, weapons, ideology, financing is all Iran, TBH I'm shocked you believe the propaganda. Fatah well flawed is Palestinian and they lost to Hamas, brutally, because of the Iranian backing.
Your bolded part does not counter what I said, I'm not saying you support the attack on Israel, I'm saying you are not applying your logic in both directions. I'm trying to point out the lack of consistency.
And for your last paragraph, I really do not know if it is your reading comprehension (which I doubt but it becoming a more and more realistic option considering how incredibly wrong you get things). I literally explain what I mean, I said you are comfortable killing the people with the guns while they are doing the horrible acts. I'm NOT SURE on the other members of Hamas you are OK with killing of what level of support to Hamas they need to give to meet your level.
I also think that you and the other people in this thread that appear in lock step would likely have different opinions on those thresholds. I also suspect your threshold to when you would enact violence on a "fascist" or supporter of fascism is much different than Hamas. I don't however think you are at GH levels where any communist can kill whoever in his revolution call them a capitalist and be OK. I also don't think you believe all the antisemitic tropes GH does (just with the word capitalist swapped for Jew, to make it more palatable for the lefty). On February 15 2024 22:47 JimmiC wrote:On February 15 2024 11:53 WombaT wrote:On February 15 2024 10:12 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
You are not aware that basically all Israelis are pro Israel? Even the ones who are anti war are pro Israel, basically every Jewish person in the world is pro Israel. So when you write what MP writes you are calling all Israelis and likely all Jewish people evil. Whether or not that is intended or not only he knows, but that is the message he is writing with his hot takes. Within a thread that massively discusses the Israeli/Palestine conflict almost exclusively, I feel contextually ‘pro-Israel camp’ should be pretty likely to be referring to ‘pro Israel’s conduct in this conflict’ rather than ‘pro Israel existing’. And in addition MP goes on to talk specifically about deaths, destruction and indeed war. Sure crossed wires happen, but how did you pivot that all the way over to ‘…likely all Jewish people evil’ being the messaging here? In fairness you did add a caveat regarding intent, but it’s a ludicrously uncharitable interpretation of what he wrote. + Show Spoiler +More or less ludicrous than his interpretation of everyone of Cerebrates posts?
There is plenty of actual bad things the IDF is doing and saying they are doing to talk about that there is no need to pretend someone knows what they “actually want to do”. The power imbalance is such (and MP spent ample time discussing the power imbalance this is why he thinks IDF has all agency and this is Hamas only option) that the IDF can do what every they want. If they actually wanted to kill as many Palestinians as possible they simply would, they easily could.
You can discuss how they are willing to destroy massive amounts of civilian infrastructure to get Hamas. You can discuss how they are willing to kill more civilians, even children, to get Hamas. You can talk about how wrong that is. How it will create an endless loop of hate. There is plenty of other real things you can discuss. But when you start moving into the “they want them all dead” category, you end up dangerously close to the blood libel category of antisemitism. + Show Spoiler +Next there is absolutely no need to be a complete asshole to Cerebrate1 every time he posts. Disagree with what he actually says do not make fan fiction about what MP thinks he really feels, especially when that is so hateful. It basically shows a mirror into how MP feels as Cerebrate1 has never exposed hate.
The interesting thing about this site is you have people all over the world with different backgrounds and experiences. The different opinions are what makes it interesting. Cerebrate has a way more in depth knowledge than anyone else here on the conflict. I’m not saying you have to agree but the bar is pretty low at not transforming everything he says into some hateful message he never gave. On November 20 2023 10:53 JimmiC wrote:On November 20 2023 09:35 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On November 20 2023 08:22 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
People who do not like antisemitism are pro Israel? I thought we just called those people not awful.
This is why I do not respond to your posts, you clearly have not read any thing I’ve written. Why would I put in the effort when you are just going to shit post about me?
From yours I have read that you already know so much more from YouTube videos and this is just a waste of time so your done, but then you just come back and rinse repeat. I never said that. You did also not say that you dont like antisemitism. You said people here were antisemtic ok? So once more you are lying or not that bright (Im sorry for the ad hominem but what else can it be ffs) I mean im sorry but I asked a simple question. Even made it easier with 1) 2) Y/N ect.. So Im a bit confused. I feel like you are evading but.. well.. apparently you dont like to respond to my posts yet half of the time you do.. you just write untrue stuff.. It is really just absurdly annoying at this point. + Show Spoiler +If you don’t want to engage with stop asking me questions by name. It is not a strange request for me to ask you to if you are genuinely interested in my thoughts. And also, it would statistically unbelievable if no one who participates in these threads have antisemitic bias. + Show Spoiler +Sorry not sorry that you can’t handle that or whatever your issue is, just actually follow through of your repeated threat of going away, or at least stop making it. The last one is my personal favorite. You repeatedly employed this argument "well it's statistically unlikely that nobody here is anti-Semitic so...." what a ridiculous thing to say. I'm not saying any of you have a whore for a mother, I'm just saying it would be statistically unlikely if some of you didn't have a mother who gobbles cocks... just saying... lmao Anyway I don't think the record reflects that you "very rarely" bring out the anti-semitism card as you've claimed. Even few of those are me calling people anti-Semites. There are going to be MANY people who ingest anti-Semitism or say anti-Semitic tropes. You are a great example with your "follow the money" comment of way earlier on. It is a anti-Semitic trope but I have not called you anti-Semitic, because as far as I can tell you are not. "Follow the money" is not an anti-Semitic trope lol. Maybe you just see anti-Semitism where you want to see it. Which is, of course, "very rarely." The words in that order alone are not, but how you used it is pretty dicey. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_antisemitismPeople do not just come out and say they are racist's, because no one believes themselves to be. They believe their beliefs are just facts. Does not mean it does not exist and is not constantly present. That being said, I believe you were one of the people arguing against dog whistle racism so I understand why you would not see what I see. You need it to be explicit to believe its happening. The other people do not and would be all over people if they said the same things about of the classes or groups they support. I'm not sure what post you are even referencing where I said "follow the money" but it's hilarious that you admit that "Follow the money" is not an antisemitic trope but because there are other tropes with Jews and money you feel you can take the liberty of accusing me of using anti-semitic tropes. I was just making the argument that you overplay the anti-semite card and you end up making the case for me better than I ever could have imagined. Like obviously there are graduations but it’s really not difficult to differentiate. Are American Jews politically influential as a lobby? Yes, this is rather provable as an observation. Are Jews an interconnected hive mind that transcend national boundaries who secretly want to take over the world and are unique in that regard, distinct from more regular forms of nationalism etc? No like, obviously not. There are innumerable examples to the contrary one can point to. It’s almost trivially easy to tell the difference between people observing basic reality and when they’re invoking, intentionally or otherwise, actual anti-Semitic sentiment. I’m sure I’ve sufficiently ranted about how I feel these types of arguments dominate the discourse, at least on this side of the pond. Disagree with me on the border, you’re a xenophobe. Disagree with me on trans athletes in women’s sports you’re a transphobe. Disagree with me on abortion you’re a misogynist. The list goes on forever. The goal is not to engage in good faith, the goal is to label whoever they are arguing with as an undesirable so they can wholly dismiss what they are saying and declare themselves triumphant and morally superior. They see it as an auto-win trump card in debates, I see it as obnoxious. Usually these arguments are coming out of the left and directed by people at the right. I could take pleasure in seeing them now get a taste of their own medicine by being called anti-Semites, and I do, but I’d trade it all back to not have to see these stupid arguments at all. Here you don’t really have a lot of people that use this kind of argumentation. Maybe because people don’t need to stoop to that or maybe because we don’t have a lot of overtly racist, misogynistic etc people. But you still see a little of “I’m not saying you’re an anti-Semite you’re just saying things that an anti-Semite might say” or “I’m not saying you’re an antivaxxer you’re just posting something you might read on an antivax forum. Like some kind of weird guilt-by-association when there really isn’t even any association.
Where I would push back is that there's a very clear link between arguments around the border and xenophobia, between arguments on trans anything and transphobia, between arguments on abortion and misogyny, in a way that there is absolutely not between arguments on Israel and antisemitism.
Recently the one to talk about has been transphobia, because people are quite comfortable being transphobic in general. So when I encounter a statement that reads "I'm not transphobic but [extremely transphobic thing]", I like to ask them "What is it about transphobia that you don't like?" and these people will struggle to answer in a coherent way, if they answer at all. Usually the answer will center around how they don't like to be called transphobic, rather than what they don't like about transphobia.
I'm guessing a lot of it is about whether the words are used as a description or as an attack. I don't think I've won an argument if I've described something as transphobic. I can see how it may happen that these words are used to shut down discourse, but they have a descriptive power that I'm not ready to let go. Similarly I'm not ready to let go of the concept of antisemitism because it is misused by a bunch of people who want to shield Israel from legitimate criticism.
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On April 09 2024 15:53 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2024 13:36 BlackJack wrote:On April 09 2024 08:19 WombaT wrote:On April 09 2024 07:40 BlackJack wrote:On April 09 2024 07:26 JimmiC wrote:On April 09 2024 07:18 BlackJack wrote:On April 09 2024 06:59 JimmiC wrote:On April 09 2024 06:44 BlackJack wrote:On April 09 2024 05:46 JimmiC wrote:On April 09 2024 04:24 Broetchenholer wrote:
[quote]
Not every one sided overgeneralisation of Israels contribution to the conflict is anti-semitism and you should not pull that card out whenever you disagree with someone vehemently. I would say Israel has continued to move towards an Apartheid state ever since it became the clear winner of the good ole nationalism days and before that some of what they did was excusable due to existential thread and somewhat different times. And you know that yourself, but for some reason, i guess because Nebuchad and GH have taken a lean towards Palestine, you have to find a more extreme position on the other side of the discussion and it's really weird.
Your argument is always, i hate Netanyahu, what is happening is bad, i wish it was different, but in this case, i guess Palestinean civilians, international aid workers, Syrians, Journalists, Lebanese they all just have to die.
RenSC2 just casually said, that Palestineans should be punished a few decades for what their despots did. Cool. Guess that's the argument you now have to defend.
This situation is messy and terrible, there is no simple solution and the ones that have the most uncomplicated opinion of it are almost always wrong. You are trying very hard to have an uncomplicated opinion in the last few pages and whenever you are called out, you seem to double down. Probably because other people here have also had way too uncomplicated opinions before, me certainly, stilt now definately, but also Ren and cerebrate.
Like you said, the world is not black and white.
Thank goodness I don’t bring it out every time, in fact I bring it out very rarely. This is another thing you can easily check on but doubtful you will. I bring it out when a hateful person says that all Israelis are genocidal and have been since 1948, because it is anti-Semitic Ok, let's check On November 01 2023 23:51 JimmiC wrote:On November 01 2023 23:42 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
So I understood correctly, and I'm pointing out that they aren't striking back at Hamas. + Show Spoiler +Nope, they are which is causing massive civilian causalities. I disagree with the approach not it is impossible. I get that it’s easier for you to read what you want to read because of your blatant bias against me and your unconscious antisemitism but it’s not worth my time to go back and forth with you + Show Spoiler +because if I drop to your level I’ll get banned with a PM from Drone calling me an idiot. So good luck and I hope you had a great Halloween last night and at some point are able to come to terms with how you see yourself and your actual beliefs. On November 09 2023 04:22 JimmiC wrote:On November 09 2023 03:44 Godwrath wrote:
[quote]
Only if it's displacing all of them right? If it's (all - 1) it's not ethnic cleanse. Of course not. But it’s easier for all of you to feel good about your antisemitism and insult me rather than confront it. + Show Spoiler +There is all sorts of awful things happening in the world most of them people from the outside are able to see it from both sides, point out the awful from both sides but also have some empathy towards why that side is doing awful things. I mean it is easy for many of you to easily justify Hamas actions and the people hiding and helping them. Yet zero in the opposite way and if anyone try’s to talk about you have jump down their throats with all sorts of anger and logical fallacy. On March 07 2024 15:33 JimmiC wrote:On March 07 2024 12:52 gobbledydook wrote:
[quote]
It’s lebensraum right? Straight out of the Nazi playbook Of course not. Were you aware that many consider what you just did there antisemitism, it is a debated topic in academia. + Show Spoiler + On March 08 2024 06:00 JimmiC wrote:On March 08 2024 05:35 Jockmcplop wrote:
[quote]
If I was to reply to this with:
'No but a huge part of Israel's ideology is killing all the Palestinians' is that a subtle enough comparison to avoid accusations of antisemitism? + Show Spoiler +I mean that would be the antisemitic response to what is going on. Because if it was true they would have done is over and over with their 10 gobillion stronger than everyone army and space lasers.
Like if we talking about not Israel and Jews you would be all over this. Seriously, no point me posting them anymore because it is clear you are not reading them, but there is a shit ton of academic research and papers on antisemitism in the left. And tons of the boxes get checked here fairly regularly. Does that mean lots of people here are antisemites? No it does not, does it mean that many people here are ingesting a lot of antisemitic material without realizing what it is? Yes it does. + Show Spoiler +All the people you have spent calling racists, or saying racist dog whistles, feel exactly like you do right now, crazy isn't it? On March 08 2024 06:37 JimmiC wrote:On March 08 2024 06:32 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
I've read this wiki page before, it's a good summary of how far right and unequal zionist ideology is at a fundamental level. But I'm not a zionist though, so I'm unsure why I would be embarrassed by it. BTW one of the common ways leftists who are antisemites hide it, is by jus saying things about zionists. Might have ticked all the boxes now, congrats! + Show Spoiler +Seriously you should read up even ifit is just to argue me, at least you will have some basis to do so.
You should be embarrassed because as per usual I didn't say what you accused me of. Israel is a Jewish state, the only one, and this shouldn't be new information. On April 08 2024 22:09 JimmiC wrote:On April 08 2024 21:50 stilt wrote:
[quote]
The israelis are genocidal maniac since the ethnic cleasing of 1948. Their contemporan policies of destroying muslim place is linked to the thousands of palestinians jailed without judgment while tsahal is getting away with murdering hundred of palestinians every years including two years old without any consequences way before the 07/10.
You're of them as well by the way with your carte blanche stuff, I suppose you're denying the israeli induced famine in gaza as well.
It's weird, every advocate for genocide always end up being a negationnist in the end. Wowza, just leading off post with full fledged antisemitism. At least when you take the mask off we don’t have to guess any more. + Show Spoiler +History, for non antisemitic people is not really this one sided or black and white. They were actually being gassed in Europe during this decade, actually being systematically exterminated with the intent to remove them all from existence. You know, actual genocide. On January 18 2024 05:28 JimmiC wrote:On January 18 2024 04:32 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
"In the way that you want" was just a turn of phrase, I meant "in the way that you're envisioning when you're writing this paragraph". I didn't mean to imply that you want it, I apologize. To answer your question, I don't think you want many specific things regarding the Palestinian conflict, I think it's much more important to you to disagree with GH me or Drone (and now the other people that you're starting to dislike because of this thread) than any real world stuff.
Hamas is obviously not an external force, as it's composed of an absurdly large majority of Palestinians (if not a totality? I don't really know if there's a way to know that, but it doesn't matter). There is no significant percentage of Iranians flocking to Gaza to join Hamas. What a silly claim.
"And then it goes to that they are creating a situation where Israeli's who wouldn't normally be far right are being pushed in that direction. They are supporting the IDF not because they have those ideals but because they are the group fighting back."
=> "This logic also works the other way around when it comes to Palestine attacking Israel, which is why I also don't support the violence of events like Oct 7th, so you can delete the paragraph that you started to write asking me that question."
I can't say I'm surprised but come on.
Israel is currently run by a far right government, who is operating the war machine. The people who are not far right in Israel are not the people who are running this war, and as such my claim is justified. If you want to call me anti-Israel because I claimed some fascists are fascists, then you can, but I will not be impressed.
For a line of fun, notice that you started your post with "Glad to see you're still incapable of not being a slave to your assumptions" and then you ended it with a paragraph about how I'm not comfortable with killing Hamas militants (or members, I don't know what the difference is supposed to be lol) even though I say I am. + Show Spoiler +Appreciate the sorta apology. You got it completely wrong (other than that I don't like three arrogant self righteous pricks who are and continue to be assholes to me, I would be a moronic door mat to not dislike them). I'd say it again, but we both know you would just keep on believing your assumption.
Hamas is a proxy army for Iran, their, weapons, ideology, financing is all Iran, TBH I'm shocked you believe the propaganda. Fatah well flawed is Palestinian and they lost to Hamas, brutally, because of the Iranian backing.
Your bolded part does not counter what I said, I'm not saying you support the attack on Israel, I'm saying you are not applying your logic in both directions. I'm trying to point out the lack of consistency.
And for your last paragraph, I really do not know if it is your reading comprehension (which I doubt but it becoming a more and more realistic option considering how incredibly wrong you get things). I literally explain what I mean, I said you are comfortable killing the people with the guns while they are doing the horrible acts. I'm NOT SURE on the other members of Hamas you are OK with killing of what level of support to Hamas they need to give to meet your level.
I also think that you and the other people in this thread that appear in lock step would likely have different opinions on those thresholds. I also suspect your threshold to when you would enact violence on a "fascist" or supporter of fascism is much different than Hamas. I don't however think you are at GH levels where any communist can kill whoever in his revolution call them a capitalist and be OK. I also don't think you believe all the antisemitic tropes GH does (just with the word capitalist swapped for Jew, to make it more palatable for the lefty). On February 15 2024 22:47 JimmiC wrote:On February 15 2024 11:53 WombaT wrote:
[quote]
Within a thread that massively discusses the Israeli/Palestine conflict almost exclusively, I feel contextually ‘pro-Israel camp’ should be pretty likely to be referring to ‘pro Israel’s conduct in this conflict’ rather than ‘pro Israel existing’.
And in addition MP goes on to talk specifically about deaths, destruction and indeed war.
Sure crossed wires happen, but how did you pivot that all the way over to ‘…likely all Jewish people evil’ being the messaging here? In fairness you did add a caveat regarding intent, but it’s a ludicrously uncharitable interpretation of what he wrote. + Show Spoiler +More or less ludicrous than his interpretation of everyone of Cerebrates posts?
There is plenty of actual bad things the IDF is doing and saying they are doing to talk about that there is no need to pretend someone knows what they “actually want to do”. The power imbalance is such (and MP spent ample time discussing the power imbalance this is why he thinks IDF has all agency and this is Hamas only option) that the IDF can do what every they want. If they actually wanted to kill as many Palestinians as possible they simply would, they easily could.
You can discuss how they are willing to destroy massive amounts of civilian infrastructure to get Hamas. You can discuss how they are willing to kill more civilians, even children, to get Hamas. You can talk about how wrong that is. How it will create an endless loop of hate. There is plenty of other real things you can discuss. But when you start moving into the “they want them all dead” category, you end up dangerously close to the blood libel category of antisemitism. + Show Spoiler +Next there is absolutely no need to be a complete asshole to Cerebrate1 every time he posts. Disagree with what he actually says do not make fan fiction about what MP thinks he really feels, especially when that is so hateful. It basically shows a mirror into how MP feels as Cerebrate1 has never exposed hate.
The interesting thing about this site is you have people all over the world with different backgrounds and experiences. The different opinions are what makes it interesting. Cerebrate has a way more in depth knowledge than anyone else here on the conflict. I’m not saying you have to agree but the bar is pretty low at not transforming everything he says into some hateful message he never gave. On November 20 2023 10:53 JimmiC wrote:On November 20 2023 09:35 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
[quote]
I never said that.
You did also not say that you dont like antisemitism. You said people here were antisemtic ok?
So once more you are lying or not that bright (Im sorry for the ad hominem but what else can it be ffs)
I mean im sorry but I asked a simple question. Even made it easier with 1) 2) Y/N ect..
So Im a bit confused. I feel like you are evading but.. well.. apparently you dont like to respond to my posts yet half of the time you do.. you just write untrue stuff..
It is really just absurdly annoying at this point. + Show Spoiler +If you don’t want to engage with stop asking me questions by name. It is not a strange request for me to ask you to if you are genuinely interested in my thoughts. And also, it would statistically unbelievable if no one who participates in these threads have antisemitic bias. + Show Spoiler +Sorry not sorry that you can’t handle that or whatever your issue is, just actually follow through of your repeated threat of going away, or at least stop making it. The last one is my personal favorite. You repeatedly employed this argument "well it's statistically unlikely that nobody here is anti-Semitic so...." what a ridiculous thing to say. I'm not saying any of you have a whore for a mother, I'm just saying it would be statistically unlikely if some of you didn't have a mother who gobbles cocks... just saying... lmao Anyway I don't think the record reflects that you "very rarely" bring out the anti-semitism card as you've claimed. Even few of those are me calling people anti-Semites. There are going to be MANY people who ingest anti-Semitism or say anti-Semitic tropes. You are a great example with your "follow the money" comment of way earlier on. It is a anti-Semitic trope but I have not called you anti-Semitic, because as far as I can tell you are not. "Follow the money" is not an anti-Semitic trope lol. Maybe you just see anti-Semitism where you want to see it. Which is, of course, "very rarely." The words in that order alone are not, but how you used it is pretty dicey. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_antisemitismPeople do not just come out and say they are racist's, because no one believes themselves to be. They believe their beliefs are just facts. Does not mean it does not exist and is not constantly present. That being said, I believe you were one of the people arguing against dog whistle racism so I understand why you would not see what I see. You need it to be explicit to believe its happening. The other people do not and would be all over people if they said the same things about of the classes or groups they support. I'm not sure what post you are even referencing where I said "follow the money" but it's hilarious that you admit that "Follow the money" is not an antisemitic trope but because there are other tropes with Jews and money you feel you can take the liberty of accusing me of using anti-semitic tropes. I was just making the argument that you overplay the anti-semite card and you end up making the case for me better than I ever could have imagined. Like obviously there are graduations but it’s really not difficult to differentiate. Are American Jews politically influential as a lobby? Yes, this is rather provable as an observation. Are Jews an interconnected hive mind that transcend national boundaries who secretly want to take over the world and are unique in that regard, distinct from more regular forms of nationalism etc? No like, obviously not. There are innumerable examples to the contrary one can point to. It’s almost trivially easy to tell the difference between people observing basic reality and when they’re invoking, intentionally or otherwise, actual anti-Semitic sentiment. I’m sure I’ve sufficiently ranted about how I feel these types of arguments dominate the discourse, at least on this side of the pond. Disagree with me on the border, you’re a xenophobe. Disagree with me on trans athletes in women’s sports you’re a transphobe. Disagree with me on abortion you’re a misogynist. The list goes on forever. The goal is not to engage in good faith, the goal is to label whoever they are arguing with as an undesirable so they can wholly dismiss what they are saying and declare themselves triumphant and morally superior. They see it as an auto-win trump card in debates, I see it as obnoxious. Usually these arguments are coming out of the left and directed by people at the right. I could take pleasure in seeing them now get a taste of their own medicine by being called anti-Semites, and I do, but I’d trade it all back to not have to see these stupid arguments at all. Here you don’t really have a lot of people that use this kind of argumentation. Maybe because people don’t need to stoop to that or maybe because we don’t have a lot of overtly racist, misogynistic etc people. But you still see a little of “I’m not saying you’re an anti-Semite you’re just saying things that an anti-Semite might say” or “I’m not saying you’re an antivaxxer you’re just posting something you might read on an antivax forum. Like some kind of weird guilt-by-association when there really isn’t even any association. Where I would push back is that there's a very clear link between arguments around the border and xenophobia, between arguments on trans anything and transphobia, between arguments on abortion and misogyny, in a way that there is absolutely not between arguments on Israel and antisemitism.
Yes, I also want to eat the cake and keep it at the same time.
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On April 09 2024 16:48 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2024 15:53 Nebuchad wrote:On April 09 2024 13:36 BlackJack wrote:On April 09 2024 08:19 WombaT wrote:On April 09 2024 07:40 BlackJack wrote:On April 09 2024 07:26 JimmiC wrote:On April 09 2024 07:18 BlackJack wrote:On April 09 2024 06:59 JimmiC wrote:On April 09 2024 06:44 BlackJack wrote:On April 09 2024 05:46 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
Thank goodness I don’t bring it out every time, in fact I bring it out very rarely. This is another thing you can easily check on but doubtful you will. I bring it out when a hateful person says that all Israelis are genocidal and have been since 1948, because it is anti-Semitic Ok, let's check On November 01 2023 23:51 JimmiC wrote:[quote] + Show Spoiler +Nope, they are which is causing massive civilian causalities. I disagree with the approach not it is impossible. I get that it’s easier for you to read what you want to read because of your blatant bias against me and your unconscious antisemitism but it’s not worth my time to go back and forth with you + Show Spoiler +because if I drop to your level I’ll get banned with a PM from Drone calling me an idiot. So good luck and I hope you had a great Halloween last night and at some point are able to come to terms with how you see yourself and your actual beliefs. On November 09 2023 04:22 JimmiC wrote:[quote] Of course not. But it’s easier for all of you to feel good about your antisemitism and insult me rather than confront it. + Show Spoiler +There is all sorts of awful things happening in the world most of them people from the outside are able to see it from both sides, point out the awful from both sides but also have some empathy towards why that side is doing awful things. I mean it is easy for many of you to easily justify Hamas actions and the people hiding and helping them. Yet zero in the opposite way and if anyone try’s to talk about you have jump down their throats with all sorts of anger and logical fallacy. On March 07 2024 15:33 JimmiC wrote:[quote] Of course not. Were you aware that many consider what you just did there antisemitism, it is a debated topic in academia. + Show Spoiler + On March 08 2024 06:00 JimmiC wrote:[quote] + Show Spoiler +I mean that would be the antisemitic response to what is going on. Because if it was true they would have done is over and over with their 10 gobillion stronger than everyone army and space lasers.
Like if we talking about not Israel and Jews you would be all over this. Seriously, no point me posting them anymore because it is clear you are not reading them, but there is a shit ton of academic research and papers on antisemitism in the left. And tons of the boxes get checked here fairly regularly. Does that mean lots of people here are antisemites? No it does not, does it mean that many people here are ingesting a lot of antisemitic material without realizing what it is? Yes it does. + Show Spoiler +All the people you have spent calling racists, or saying racist dog whistles, feel exactly like you do right now, crazy isn't it? On March 08 2024 06:37 JimmiC wrote:[quote] BTW one of the common ways leftists who are antisemites hide it, is by jus saying things about zionists. Might have ticked all the boxes now, congrats! + Show Spoiler +Seriously you should read up even ifit is just to argue me, at least you will have some basis to do so.
You should be embarrassed because as per usual I didn't say what you accused me of. Israel is a Jewish state, the only one, and this shouldn't be new information. On April 08 2024 22:09 JimmiC wrote:[quote] Wowza, just leading off post with full fledged antisemitism. At least when you take the mask off we don’t have to guess any more. + Show Spoiler +History, for non antisemitic people is not really this one sided or black and white. They were actually being gassed in Europe during this decade, actually being systematically exterminated with the intent to remove them all from existence. You know, actual genocide. On January 18 2024 05:28 JimmiC wrote:[quote] + Show Spoiler +Appreciate the sorta apology. You got it completely wrong (other than that I don't like three arrogant self righteous pricks who are and continue to be assholes to me, I would be a moronic door mat to not dislike them). I'd say it again, but we both know you would just keep on believing your assumption.
Hamas is a proxy army for Iran, their, weapons, ideology, financing is all Iran, TBH I'm shocked you believe the propaganda. Fatah well flawed is Palestinian and they lost to Hamas, brutally, because of the Iranian backing.
Your bolded part does not counter what I said, I'm not saying you support the attack on Israel, I'm saying you are not applying your logic in both directions. I'm trying to point out the lack of consistency.
And for your last paragraph, I really do not know if it is your reading comprehension (which I doubt but it becoming a more and more realistic option considering how incredibly wrong you get things). I literally explain what I mean, I said you are comfortable killing the people with the guns while they are doing the horrible acts. I'm NOT SURE on the other members of Hamas you are OK with killing of what level of support to Hamas they need to give to meet your level.
I also think that you and the other people in this thread that appear in lock step would likely have different opinions on those thresholds. I also suspect your threshold to when you would enact violence on a "fascist" or supporter of fascism is much different than Hamas. I don't however think you are at GH levels where any communist can kill whoever in his revolution call them a capitalist and be OK. I also don't think you believe all the antisemitic tropes GH does (just with the word capitalist swapped for Jew, to make it more palatable for the lefty). On February 15 2024 22:47 JimmiC wrote:[quote] + Show Spoiler +More or less ludicrous than his interpretation of everyone of Cerebrates posts?
There is plenty of actual bad things the IDF is doing and saying they are doing to talk about that there is no need to pretend someone knows what they “actually want to do”. The power imbalance is such (and MP spent ample time discussing the power imbalance this is why he thinks IDF has all agency and this is Hamas only option) that the IDF can do what every they want. If they actually wanted to kill as many Palestinians as possible they simply would, they easily could.
You can discuss how they are willing to destroy massive amounts of civilian infrastructure to get Hamas. You can discuss how they are willing to kill more civilians, even children, to get Hamas. You can talk about how wrong that is. How it will create an endless loop of hate. There is plenty of other real things you can discuss. But when you start moving into the “they want them all dead” category, you end up dangerously close to the blood libel category of antisemitism. + Show Spoiler +Next there is absolutely no need to be a complete asshole to Cerebrate1 every time he posts. Disagree with what he actually says do not make fan fiction about what MP thinks he really feels, especially when that is so hateful. It basically shows a mirror into how MP feels as Cerebrate1 has never exposed hate.
The interesting thing about this site is you have people all over the world with different backgrounds and experiences. The different opinions are what makes it interesting. Cerebrate has a way more in depth knowledge than anyone else here on the conflict. I’m not saying you have to agree but the bar is pretty low at not transforming everything he says into some hateful message he never gave. On November 20 2023 10:53 JimmiC wrote:[quote] + Show Spoiler +If you don’t want to engage with stop asking me questions by name. It is not a strange request for me to ask you to if you are genuinely interested in my thoughts. And also, it would statistically unbelievable if no one who participates in these threads have antisemitic bias. + Show Spoiler +Sorry not sorry that you can’t handle that or whatever your issue is, just actually follow through of your repeated threat of going away, or at least stop making it. The last one is my personal favorite. You repeatedly employed this argument "well it's statistically unlikely that nobody here is anti-Semitic so...." what a ridiculous thing to say. I'm not saying any of you have a whore for a mother, I'm just saying it would be statistically unlikely if some of you didn't have a mother who gobbles cocks... just saying... lmao Anyway I don't think the record reflects that you "very rarely" bring out the anti-semitism card as you've claimed. Even few of those are me calling people anti-Semites. There are going to be MANY people who ingest anti-Semitism or say anti-Semitic tropes. You are a great example with your "follow the money" comment of way earlier on. It is a anti-Semitic trope but I have not called you anti-Semitic, because as far as I can tell you are not. "Follow the money" is not an anti-Semitic trope lol. Maybe you just see anti-Semitism where you want to see it. Which is, of course, "very rarely." The words in that order alone are not, but how you used it is pretty dicey. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_antisemitismPeople do not just come out and say they are racist's, because no one believes themselves to be. They believe their beliefs are just facts. Does not mean it does not exist and is not constantly present. That being said, I believe you were one of the people arguing against dog whistle racism so I understand why you would not see what I see. You need it to be explicit to believe its happening. The other people do not and would be all over people if they said the same things about of the classes or groups they support. I'm not sure what post you are even referencing where I said "follow the money" but it's hilarious that you admit that "Follow the money" is not an antisemitic trope but because there are other tropes with Jews and money you feel you can take the liberty of accusing me of using anti-semitic tropes. I was just making the argument that you overplay the anti-semite card and you end up making the case for me better than I ever could have imagined. Like obviously there are graduations but it’s really not difficult to differentiate. Are American Jews politically influential as a lobby? Yes, this is rather provable as an observation. Are Jews an interconnected hive mind that transcend national boundaries who secretly want to take over the world and are unique in that regard, distinct from more regular forms of nationalism etc? No like, obviously not. There are innumerable examples to the contrary one can point to. It’s almost trivially easy to tell the difference between people observing basic reality and when they’re invoking, intentionally or otherwise, actual anti-Semitic sentiment. I’m sure I’ve sufficiently ranted about how I feel these types of arguments dominate the discourse, at least on this side of the pond. Disagree with me on the border, you’re a xenophobe. Disagree with me on trans athletes in women’s sports you’re a transphobe. Disagree with me on abortion you’re a misogynist. The list goes on forever. The goal is not to engage in good faith, the goal is to label whoever they are arguing with as an undesirable so they can wholly dismiss what they are saying and declare themselves triumphant and morally superior. They see it as an auto-win trump card in debates, I see it as obnoxious. Usually these arguments are coming out of the left and directed by people at the right. I could take pleasure in seeing them now get a taste of their own medicine by being called anti-Semites, and I do, but I’d trade it all back to not have to see these stupid arguments at all. Here you don’t really have a lot of people that use this kind of argumentation. Maybe because people don’t need to stoop to that or maybe because we don’t have a lot of overtly racist, misogynistic etc people. But you still see a little of “I’m not saying you’re an anti-Semite you’re just saying things that an anti-Semite might say” or “I’m not saying you’re an antivaxxer you’re just posting something you might read on an antivax forum. Like some kind of weird guilt-by-association when there really isn’t even any association. Where I would push back is that there's a very clear link between arguments around the border and xenophobia, between arguments on trans anything and transphobia, between arguments on abortion and misogyny, in a way that there is absolutely not between arguments on Israel and antisemitism. Yes, I also want to eat the cake and keep it at the same time.
I would very much like to discuss this with you but unfortunately we've already established in earlier conversations that you can't really say what you want because of political correctness.
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On April 09 2024 16:48 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2024 15:53 Nebuchad wrote:On April 09 2024 13:36 BlackJack wrote:On April 09 2024 08:19 WombaT wrote:On April 09 2024 07:40 BlackJack wrote:On April 09 2024 07:26 JimmiC wrote:On April 09 2024 07:18 BlackJack wrote:On April 09 2024 06:59 JimmiC wrote:On April 09 2024 06:44 BlackJack wrote:On April 09 2024 05:46 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
Thank goodness I don’t bring it out every time, in fact I bring it out very rarely. This is another thing you can easily check on but doubtful you will. I bring it out when a hateful person says that all Israelis are genocidal and have been since 1948, because it is anti-Semitic Ok, let's check On November 01 2023 23:51 JimmiC wrote:[quote] + Show Spoiler +Nope, they are which is causing massive civilian causalities. I disagree with the approach not it is impossible. I get that it’s easier for you to read what you want to read because of your blatant bias against me and your unconscious antisemitism but it’s not worth my time to go back and forth with you + Show Spoiler +because if I drop to your level I’ll get banned with a PM from Drone calling me an idiot. So good luck and I hope you had a great Halloween last night and at some point are able to come to terms with how you see yourself and your actual beliefs. On November 09 2023 04:22 JimmiC wrote:[quote] Of course not. But it’s easier for all of you to feel good about your antisemitism and insult me rather than confront it. + Show Spoiler +There is all sorts of awful things happening in the world most of them people from the outside are able to see it from both sides, point out the awful from both sides but also have some empathy towards why that side is doing awful things. I mean it is easy for many of you to easily justify Hamas actions and the people hiding and helping them. Yet zero in the opposite way and if anyone try’s to talk about you have jump down their throats with all sorts of anger and logical fallacy. On March 07 2024 15:33 JimmiC wrote:[quote] Of course not. Were you aware that many consider what you just did there antisemitism, it is a debated topic in academia. + Show Spoiler + On March 08 2024 06:00 JimmiC wrote:[quote] + Show Spoiler +I mean that would be the antisemitic response to what is going on. Because if it was true they would have done is over and over with their 10 gobillion stronger than everyone army and space lasers.
Like if we talking about not Israel and Jews you would be all over this. Seriously, no point me posting them anymore because it is clear you are not reading them, but there is a shit ton of academic research and papers on antisemitism in the left. And tons of the boxes get checked here fairly regularly. Does that mean lots of people here are antisemites? No it does not, does it mean that many people here are ingesting a lot of antisemitic material without realizing what it is? Yes it does. + Show Spoiler +All the people you have spent calling racists, or saying racist dog whistles, feel exactly like you do right now, crazy isn't it? On March 08 2024 06:37 JimmiC wrote:[quote] BTW one of the common ways leftists who are antisemites hide it, is by jus saying things about zionists. Might have ticked all the boxes now, congrats! + Show Spoiler +Seriously you should read up even ifit is just to argue me, at least you will have some basis to do so.
You should be embarrassed because as per usual I didn't say what you accused me of. Israel is a Jewish state, the only one, and this shouldn't be new information. On April 08 2024 22:09 JimmiC wrote:[quote] Wowza, just leading off post with full fledged antisemitism. At least when you take the mask off we don’t have to guess any more. + Show Spoiler +History, for non antisemitic people is not really this one sided or black and white. They were actually being gassed in Europe during this decade, actually being systematically exterminated with the intent to remove them all from existence. You know, actual genocide. On January 18 2024 05:28 JimmiC wrote:[quote] + Show Spoiler +Appreciate the sorta apology. You got it completely wrong (other than that I don't like three arrogant self righteous pricks who are and continue to be assholes to me, I would be a moronic door mat to not dislike them). I'd say it again, but we both know you would just keep on believing your assumption.
Hamas is a proxy army for Iran, their, weapons, ideology, financing is all Iran, TBH I'm shocked you believe the propaganda. Fatah well flawed is Palestinian and they lost to Hamas, brutally, because of the Iranian backing.
Your bolded part does not counter what I said, I'm not saying you support the attack on Israel, I'm saying you are not applying your logic in both directions. I'm trying to point out the lack of consistency.
And for your last paragraph, I really do not know if it is your reading comprehension (which I doubt but it becoming a more and more realistic option considering how incredibly wrong you get things). I literally explain what I mean, I said you are comfortable killing the people with the guns while they are doing the horrible acts. I'm NOT SURE on the other members of Hamas you are OK with killing of what level of support to Hamas they need to give to meet your level.
I also think that you and the other people in this thread that appear in lock step would likely have different opinions on those thresholds. I also suspect your threshold to when you would enact violence on a "fascist" or supporter of fascism is much different than Hamas. I don't however think you are at GH levels where any communist can kill whoever in his revolution call them a capitalist and be OK. I also don't think you believe all the antisemitic tropes GH does (just with the word capitalist swapped for Jew, to make it more palatable for the lefty). On February 15 2024 22:47 JimmiC wrote:[quote] + Show Spoiler +More or less ludicrous than his interpretation of everyone of Cerebrates posts?
There is plenty of actual bad things the IDF is doing and saying they are doing to talk about that there is no need to pretend someone knows what they “actually want to do”. The power imbalance is such (and MP spent ample time discussing the power imbalance this is why he thinks IDF has all agency and this is Hamas only option) that the IDF can do what every they want. If they actually wanted to kill as many Palestinians as possible they simply would, they easily could.
You can discuss how they are willing to destroy massive amounts of civilian infrastructure to get Hamas. You can discuss how they are willing to kill more civilians, even children, to get Hamas. You can talk about how wrong that is. How it will create an endless loop of hate. There is plenty of other real things you can discuss. But when you start moving into the “they want them all dead” category, you end up dangerously close to the blood libel category of antisemitism. + Show Spoiler +Next there is absolutely no need to be a complete asshole to Cerebrate1 every time he posts. Disagree with what he actually says do not make fan fiction about what MP thinks he really feels, especially when that is so hateful. It basically shows a mirror into how MP feels as Cerebrate1 has never exposed hate.
The interesting thing about this site is you have people all over the world with different backgrounds and experiences. The different opinions are what makes it interesting. Cerebrate has a way more in depth knowledge than anyone else here on the conflict. I’m not saying you have to agree but the bar is pretty low at not transforming everything he says into some hateful message he never gave. On November 20 2023 10:53 JimmiC wrote:[quote] + Show Spoiler +If you don’t want to engage with stop asking me questions by name. It is not a strange request for me to ask you to if you are genuinely interested in my thoughts. And also, it would statistically unbelievable if no one who participates in these threads have antisemitic bias. + Show Spoiler +Sorry not sorry that you can’t handle that or whatever your issue is, just actually follow through of your repeated threat of going away, or at least stop making it. The last one is my personal favorite. You repeatedly employed this argument "well it's statistically unlikely that nobody here is anti-Semitic so...." what a ridiculous thing to say. I'm not saying any of you have a whore for a mother, I'm just saying it would be statistically unlikely if some of you didn't have a mother who gobbles cocks... just saying... lmao Anyway I don't think the record reflects that you "very rarely" bring out the anti-semitism card as you've claimed. Even few of those are me calling people anti-Semites. There are going to be MANY people who ingest anti-Semitism or say anti-Semitic tropes. You are a great example with your "follow the money" comment of way earlier on. It is a anti-Semitic trope but I have not called you anti-Semitic, because as far as I can tell you are not. "Follow the money" is not an anti-Semitic trope lol. Maybe you just see anti-Semitism where you want to see it. Which is, of course, "very rarely." The words in that order alone are not, but how you used it is pretty dicey. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_antisemitismPeople do not just come out and say they are racist's, because no one believes themselves to be. They believe their beliefs are just facts. Does not mean it does not exist and is not constantly present. That being said, I believe you were one of the people arguing against dog whistle racism so I understand why you would not see what I see. You need it to be explicit to believe its happening. The other people do not and would be all over people if they said the same things about of the classes or groups they support. I'm not sure what post you are even referencing where I said "follow the money" but it's hilarious that you admit that "Follow the money" is not an antisemitic trope but because there are other tropes with Jews and money you feel you can take the liberty of accusing me of using anti-semitic tropes. I was just making the argument that you overplay the anti-semite card and you end up making the case for me better than I ever could have imagined. Like obviously there are graduations but it’s really not difficult to differentiate. Are American Jews politically influential as a lobby? Yes, this is rather provable as an observation. Are Jews an interconnected hive mind that transcend national boundaries who secretly want to take over the world and are unique in that regard, distinct from more regular forms of nationalism etc? No like, obviously not. There are innumerable examples to the contrary one can point to. It’s almost trivially easy to tell the difference between people observing basic reality and when they’re invoking, intentionally or otherwise, actual anti-Semitic sentiment. I’m sure I’ve sufficiently ranted about how I feel these types of arguments dominate the discourse, at least on this side of the pond. Disagree with me on the border, you’re a xenophobe. Disagree with me on trans athletes in women’s sports you’re a transphobe. Disagree with me on abortion you’re a misogynist. The list goes on forever. The goal is not to engage in good faith, the goal is to label whoever they are arguing with as an undesirable so they can wholly dismiss what they are saying and declare themselves triumphant and morally superior. They see it as an auto-win trump card in debates, I see it as obnoxious. Usually these arguments are coming out of the left and directed by people at the right. I could take pleasure in seeing them now get a taste of their own medicine by being called anti-Semites, and I do, but I’d trade it all back to not have to see these stupid arguments at all. Here you don’t really have a lot of people that use this kind of argumentation. Maybe because people don’t need to stoop to that or maybe because we don’t have a lot of overtly racist, misogynistic etc people. But you still see a little of “I’m not saying you’re an anti-Semite you’re just saying things that an anti-Semite might say” or “I’m not saying you’re an antivaxxer you’re just posting something you might read on an antivax forum. Like some kind of weird guilt-by-association when there really isn’t even any association. Where I would push back is that there's a very clear link between arguments around the border and xenophobia, between arguments on trans anything and transphobia, between arguments on abortion and misogyny, in a way that there is absolutely not between arguments on Israel and antisemitism. Yes, I also want to eat the cake and keep it at the same time.
That's how it reads to me as well. Sure, you'd like to stop being called anti-Semitic for criticizing Israel but you don't want to give up the right to do that to other people you disagree with on other topics
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On April 09 2024 18:16 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2024 16:48 Elroi wrote:On April 09 2024 15:53 Nebuchad wrote:On April 09 2024 13:36 BlackJack wrote:On April 09 2024 08:19 WombaT wrote:On April 09 2024 07:40 BlackJack wrote:On April 09 2024 07:26 JimmiC wrote:On April 09 2024 07:18 BlackJack wrote:On April 09 2024 06:59 JimmiC wrote:On April 09 2024 06:44 BlackJack wrote:
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Ok, let's check
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The last one is my personal favorite. You repeatedly employed this argument "well it's statistically unlikely that nobody here is anti-Semitic so...." what a ridiculous thing to say.
I'm not saying any of you have a whore for a mother, I'm just saying it would be statistically unlikely if some of you didn't have a mother who gobbles cocks... just saying... lmao
Anyway I don't think the record reflects that you "very rarely" bring out the anti-semitism card as you've claimed. Even few of those are me calling people anti-Semites. There are going to be MANY people who ingest anti-Semitism or say anti-Semitic tropes. You are a great example with your "follow the money" comment of way earlier on. It is a anti-Semitic trope but I have not called you anti-Semitic, because as far as I can tell you are not. "Follow the money" is not an anti-Semitic trope lol. Maybe you just see anti-Semitism where you want to see it. Which is, of course, "very rarely." The words in that order alone are not, but how you used it is pretty dicey. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_antisemitismPeople do not just come out and say they are racist's, because no one believes themselves to be. They believe their beliefs are just facts. Does not mean it does not exist and is not constantly present. That being said, I believe you were one of the people arguing against dog whistle racism so I understand why you would not see what I see. You need it to be explicit to believe its happening. The other people do not and would be all over people if they said the same things about of the classes or groups they support. I'm not sure what post you are even referencing where I said "follow the money" but it's hilarious that you admit that "Follow the money" is not an antisemitic trope but because there are other tropes with Jews and money you feel you can take the liberty of accusing me of using anti-semitic tropes. I was just making the argument that you overplay the anti-semite card and you end up making the case for me better than I ever could have imagined. Like obviously there are graduations but it’s really not difficult to differentiate. Are American Jews politically influential as a lobby? Yes, this is rather provable as an observation. Are Jews an interconnected hive mind that transcend national boundaries who secretly want to take over the world and are unique in that regard, distinct from more regular forms of nationalism etc? No like, obviously not. There are innumerable examples to the contrary one can point to. It’s almost trivially easy to tell the difference between people observing basic reality and when they’re invoking, intentionally or otherwise, actual anti-Semitic sentiment. I’m sure I’ve sufficiently ranted about how I feel these types of arguments dominate the discourse, at least on this side of the pond. Disagree with me on the border, you’re a xenophobe. Disagree with me on trans athletes in women’s sports you’re a transphobe. Disagree with me on abortion you’re a misogynist. The list goes on forever. The goal is not to engage in good faith, the goal is to label whoever they are arguing with as an undesirable so they can wholly dismiss what they are saying and declare themselves triumphant and morally superior. They see it as an auto-win trump card in debates, I see it as obnoxious. Usually these arguments are coming out of the left and directed by people at the right. I could take pleasure in seeing them now get a taste of their own medicine by being called anti-Semites, and I do, but I’d trade it all back to not have to see these stupid arguments at all. Here you don’t really have a lot of people that use this kind of argumentation. Maybe because people don’t need to stoop to that or maybe because we don’t have a lot of overtly racist, misogynistic etc people. But you still see a little of “I’m not saying you’re an anti-Semite you’re just saying things that an anti-Semite might say” or “I’m not saying you’re an antivaxxer you’re just posting something you might read on an antivax forum. Like some kind of weird guilt-by-association when there really isn’t even any association. Where I would push back is that there's a very clear link between arguments around the border and xenophobia, between arguments on trans anything and transphobia, between arguments on abortion and misogyny, in a way that there is absolutely not between arguments on Israel and antisemitism. Yes, I also want to eat the cake and keep it at the same time. That's how it reads to me as well. Sure, you'd like to stop being called anti-Semitic for criticizing Israel but you don't want to give up the right to do that to other people you disagree with on other topics
I'm fine with you believing that about me, I don't really care.
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I agree with Nebuchad. Xenophobia, transphobia and abortion are specific to foreigners, transgender people and women. There can be no mistake. Criticism of Israel is absolutely not specific to Jews.
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On April 09 2024 19:16 Magic Powers wrote:
I agree with Nebuchad. Xenophobia, transphobia and abortion are specific to foreigners, transgender people and women. There can be no mistake. Criticism of Israel is absolutely not specific to Jews.
It's even more basic than that, the criticism is basically that because I don't think I suck at Bloodborne, therefore I'm trying to have my cake and eat it too if I say that someone else sucks at Elden Ring. It's not a real reasoning, nobody thinks like this.
But yes, I guess we can attempt to put something interesting into the conversation. The way I perceive it, we're dealing with people who have the mindset that xenophobia as a concept is justified. People from outside of the borders are dangerous, we need to protect from them, they represent something negative. But they also believe that xenophobia as a term is vile, and something that you shouldn't be.
That's how the dissonnance happens. What they think is that we shouldn't call them a vile thing like xenophobe because they don't have vile beliefs, they have justified beliefs, but what's happening in reality is that they have definitionally xenophobic thoughts (with no moral judgement at this stage) and they believe that those thoughts are justified and not deserving of a negative moral judgement.
By contrast, when we see someone talking about how Israel probably shouldn't kill thousands and thousands of children, we're generally not dealing with someone who thinks that Jews are bad and is trying to justify that belief. There is a clear pathway to get to the belief that murdering children is bad, or even that Israel as a concept is bad, without it being linked to jewishness. Here I was being opposed to all the other colonial projects of Europe and I didn't realize I was really anti-white. We even see many prominent antisemites that are actually pro-Israel, as it's a place where Jews can go and be someone else's problem instead of being in their countries and jewing them up.
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On April 09 2024 19:16 Magic Powers wrote:
I agree with Nebuchad. Xenophobia, transphobia and abortion are specific to foreigners, transgender people and women. There can be no mistake. Criticism of Israel is absolutely not specific to Jews.
Abortion is not specific to women. Men can get pregnant and bear children as well. Try to be a little less exclusionary with your language, please. It reeks of transphobia.
Hey, I kind of like this game.
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On April 09 2024 19:16 Magic Powers wrote:
I agree with Nebuchad. Xenophobia, transphobia and abortion are specific to foreigners, transgender people and women. There can be no mistake. Criticism of Israel is absolutely not specific to Jews.
Yes, but there is a simple Test.
As soon as someone sais "from the river to the sea" or similar stuff, it's pretty much plain antisemitism.
Many, many, many people that see themselves as "just ciritical of Israel" fail that simple test.
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On April 09 2024 19:22 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2024 19:16 Magic Powers wrote:
I agree with Nebuchad. Xenophobia, transphobia and abortion are specific to foreigners, transgender people and women. There can be no mistake. Criticism of Israel is absolutely not specific to Jews. It's even more basic than that, the criticism is basically that because I don't think I suck at Bloodborne, therefore I'm trying to have my cake and eat it too if I say that someone else sucks at Elden Ring. It's not a real reasoning, nobody thinks like this. But yes, I guess we can attempt to put something interesting into the conversation. The way I perceive it, we're dealing with people who have the mindset that xenophobia as a concept is justified. People from outside of the borders are dangerous, we need to protect from them, they represent something negative. But they also believe that xenophobia as a term is vile, and something that you shouldn't be. That's how the dissonnance happens. What they think is that we shouldn't call them a vile thing like xenophobe because they don't have vile beliefs, they have justified beliefs, but what's happening in reality is that they have definitionally xenophobic thoughts (with no moral judgement at this stage) and they believe that those thoughts are justified and not deserving of a negative moral judgement. By contrast, when we see someone talking about how Israel probably shouldn't kill thousands and thousands of children, we're generally not dealing with someone who thinks that Jews are bad and is trying to justify that belief. There is a clear pathway to get to the belief that murdering children is bad, or even that Israel as a concept is bad, without it being linked to jewishness. Here I was being opposed to all the other colonial projects of Europe and I didn't realize I was really anti-white. We even see many prominent antisemites that are actually pro-Israel, as it's a place where Jews can go and be someone else's problem instead of being in their countries and jewing them up.
You know in your head that you're not an anti-semite and you know that in their head they are actually a racist/bigot/xenophobe. Ok, sure. For the outside observer that can't read minds it looks the same from here.
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On April 09 2024 19:55 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2024 19:16 Magic Powers wrote:
I agree with Nebuchad. Xenophobia, transphobia and abortion are specific to foreigners, transgender people and women. There can be no mistake. Criticism of Israel is absolutely not specific to Jews. Yes, but there is a simple Test. As soon as someone sais "from the river to the sea" or similar stuff, it's pretty much plain antisemitism. Many, many, many people that see themselves as "just ciritical of Israel" fail that simple test.
"Many, many, many people"? If it's that common, shouldn't we be seeing antisemitism everywhere in this thread all the time?
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On April 09 2024 19:16 Magic Powers wrote:
I agree with Nebuchad. Xenophobia, transphobia and abortion are specific to foreigners, transgender people and women. There can be no mistake. Criticism of Israel is absolutely not specific to Jews.
What? You can discuss the legal limits of abortion or border policy without being a misogynist or a xenophobe just like it's possible to criticize Israel without being an anti-semite.
But on the flip side, if you have a fanatical and irrational view on women's reproductive health/the border/Israel's history, it's similarly reasonable to believe that you have those views because you are a misogynist/xenophobe/anti-semite.
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On April 09 2024 20:13 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2024 19:22 Nebuchad wrote:On April 09 2024 19:16 Magic Powers wrote:
I agree with Nebuchad. Xenophobia, transphobia and abortion are specific to foreigners, transgender people and women. There can be no mistake. Criticism of Israel is absolutely not specific to Jews. It's even more basic than that, the criticism is basically that because I don't think I suck at Bloodborne, therefore I'm trying to have my cake and eat it too if I say that someone else sucks at Elden Ring. It's not a real reasoning, nobody thinks like this. But yes, I guess we can attempt to put something interesting into the conversation. The way I perceive it, we're dealing with people who have the mindset that xenophobia as a concept is justified. People from outside of the borders are dangerous, we need to protect from them, they represent something negative. But they also believe that xenophobia as a term is vile, and something that you shouldn't be. That's how the dissonnance happens. What they think is that we shouldn't call them a vile thing like xenophobe because they don't have vile beliefs, they have justified beliefs, but what's happening in reality is that they have definitionally xenophobic thoughts (with no moral judgement at this stage) and they believe that those thoughts are justified and not deserving of a negative moral judgement. By contrast, when we see someone talking about how Israel probably shouldn't kill thousands and thousands of children, we're generally not dealing with someone who thinks that Jews are bad and is trying to justify that belief. There is a clear pathway to get to the belief that murdering children is bad, or even that Israel as a concept is bad, without it being linked to jewishness. Here I was being opposed to all the other colonial projects of Europe and I didn't realize I was really anti-white. We even see many prominent antisemites that are actually pro-Israel, as it's a place where Jews can go and be someone else's problem instead of being in their countries and jewing them up. You know in your head that you're not an anti-semite and you know that in their head they are actually a racist/bigot/xenophobe. Ok, sure. For the outside observer that can't read minds it looks the same from here.
That's not true though, it doesn't look the same at all. In one case the person says a bunch of things that have a direct connexion to the term, but then refuses the term. In the other the person says a bunch of things that have no direct connexion to the term, only a tangential, probably bad faith connexion, and then refuses the term.
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EPT
