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Northern Ireland23900 Posts
On November 24 2023 02:51 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2023 02:14 Magic Powers wrote:On November 23 2023 23:39 JimmiC wrote:On November 23 2023 19:12 Magic Powers wrote:
This is exactly what happens when only one of two evil groups gets called evil. Which is the group not getting called evil? Here it’s like at least 90% calling the IDF evil and I think 100% of those who have written about Hamas have said evil. I'm talking about the international response. Haven’t multiple people posted how their governments were voting for anti IDF resolutions but not the other side? Tons of governments have changed their tune from full support to maximum restraint. Every article I read says this deal was done with massive pressure from the US on Israel and Im sure there is tons of other private pressure. Who’s publicly supporting Israel right now with anything more than the most basic tepid response? I do not understand this narrative. It is hard to find anything that is remotely “pro Israel” unless it is from a paper in Israel or from the anti defamation league. Israel is wildly unpopular basically everywhere.
How many Palestinians have died while all this massive Western pressure has been exerted? Didn’t the US just hand Israel another 13 billion dollars in military aid?
Has anyone from the Western world’s political leadership even touched the thorny topic of settlements since this conflict started?
I can only think of Leo Varadkar of Ireland who I’d consider being pretty consistently neutral/anti-Israel. I’m sure there are other examples but there’ll be gaps in areas I see.
The rest? I’m mostly seeing ‘we stand with Israel’ initially, morphing into maybe some very muted calls for a bit of restraint weeks later at best.
I mean if your local crime lord gives permission for his local grunt to beat up some shopkeeper who’s refusing to pay extortion fees, but don’t beat him up too bad otherwise how do we get the money, you’d still consider that support for the action no?
I would say government support for Israel in many places exceeds the population’s favourability, especially lately. Although the US probably does have a quite legitimate public support for Israel that is merely reflected
In the UK we’ve had a pretty consistent theme of a Conservative government that’s very pro-Israel, and now a Labour opposition that’s, at least on a national policy also toeing a similar line. For example in trying to oppose boycotting movements, or prohibit bodies exercising them: Guardian summary. More biased but more detailed Jacobin magazine article
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On November 24 2023 04:44 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2023 03:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2023 03:12 RvB wrote:On November 24 2023 02:53 GreenHorizons wrote:
Regarding the deal, I am curious about why Israel abandoned their "we won't negotiate" stance to take this deal and what it might mean going forward. As far as I've seen Israel hasn't given their reasoning and insists their invasion/illegal occupation will continue after any pause. They've been clear about their aims since the start. Release the hostages and get rid of Hamas. Negotiating for their release was always the most likely way to release at least some of them. They don't really lose that much with a temporary ceasefire. More time for Hamas to prepare and get on their feet but at the same time it's also a pause for Israel to prepare for the next parts of their campaign. Most likely sure (I don't think any serious people believed Israel was going to recover them through their bombing/ground invasion), but they essentially publicly rejected this deal/deals like them for weeks insisting they wouldn't negotiate. That the hostages would either be wholly released by Hamas without conditions and then Israel would eliminate Hamas, or Israel would destroy Hamas therefore freeing the hostages by eliminating their captors. I'm wondering why they abandoned that now. It's a position the US was openly supporting with Blinken saying things like "They need to be released, each and every one of them, now, unconditionally." So maybe some assessment of the situation (probably including internal pressure from families of hostages and their supporters in Israel, and pro-Palestinian actions in the US) finally made clear to both the US and Israel that wasn't going to work? I guess I'm curious how Israel is squaring this deal with their earlier position against even entertaining deals like this. They've been negotiating since the start. Don't think they've ever said there would be no negotiation. From apnews.com Show nested quote +WASHINGTON (AP) — The negotiations hardly ran smoothly. But in the end, persistence paid off.
Six weeks ago, not long after Hamas killed more than 1,200 people in Israel and took scores of others hostage in a surprise assault, the government of Qatar quietly reached out to the United States to discuss how to secure the release of those who were taken captive by the militant group.
But the mission demanded extreme sensitivity. It was so secret that U.S. officials established a communications cell to reach Hamas directly and kept those negotiations tightly guarded throughout the U.S. government. Only a handful of people were aware of the talks, according to a senior White House official.
The cell allowed the small circle of negotiators to speak regularly without additional bureaucracy. U.S. and Israeli officials spent weeks scrambling to put together a deal that would free dozens of hostages held by Hamas. The White House saw that as the only realistic way to halt the bloody combat that has devastated the region for more than six weeks. Pressure from the US and the hostages families certainly made a difference as you say.
They definitely repeatedly said there would be no negotiations with Hamas over hostages.
National Security Council head Tzachi Hanegbi said... “Israel will not hold negotiations with an enemy that we have vowed to wipe from the face of the earth,” he said, briefing reporters at the Israel Defense Force’s Tel Aviv headquarters.
Which was part of what precipitated the outrage from families
His comments prompted fury from the families of the missing, with their spokesman accusing the government of abandoning them.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hanegbi-israel-wont-negotiate-with-hamas-on-hostages-now-will-remove-it-from-power/
The AP article did mention something I found interesting about the US pressure
Biden vowed that he would not relent until all American hostages in Gaza were released.
It would appear that the US pressure is specifically tied to the release of US citizens, not the hostages at large.
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Stuff changes? Pressure changes? I don’t know? We are likely working with the same information as you are. Do you think they decided to stop the campaign altogether or something?
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Egypt now saying that Hamas is refusing to allow the Red Cross access to the Hostages only giving them info on their status.
An Egyptian official said that the Hamas terrorists refuse to allow Red Cross representatives to visit the hostages held in Gaza and was only willing to provide information on their condition, the Qatari owned, UK based Al-Araby Al-Jadeed newspaper reported on Thursday.
According to the report, Hamas considers information about captives a currency that Israel must pay for. Israel said on Wednesday that the Red Cross would be allowed to visit the captives according to the agreement negotiated with the help of Qatar but did not deny that Hamas was now refusing to allow such visits.
Israeli officials said late on Thursday that they still expect the visits to take place despite Qatar's Foreign Ministry spokesperson saying he did not have any information on the matter.
In the report, the Egyptian official said that Israeli security officials will await the hostages on the Egyptian side of the Rafah border crossing along with Egyptian officials and representatives of the Red Crescent and the Red Cross. After the Israelis receive the hostages, they would be flown to Israel from the airport at el-Arish.
The families of hostages said they were awaiting the release of the first group of captives on Friday but said they did not trust Hamas to see the deal through.
Al-Araby Al-Jadeed also reported that the 23 Thai nationals who were abducted by the Hamas terrorists on October 7, would be released at the request of Iran that had been in contact with the government in Bangkok. Hamas reportedly provided the Thai government with information about their citizens held in Gaza. The report did not say when they would be freed but Thai media said it may come as early as Friday.
Source
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It should be possible to let Red Cross see the hostages without any information leak, right? Cover their eyes/ears, transport them, make sure they don’t have some kinda GPS stuff on, good to go?
I am by no means an expert in this kinda thing, but I’m still not convinced the hostages are alive. Will be interesting if all the Thai hostages are released exactly as described. Back to wait and see I suppose
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On November 22 2023 17:48 Jockmcplop wrote:
So Hamas is releasing 50 hostages, and Israel is releasing 150 women and kids held in detention, according to the news.
I'm curious as to the difference between 'hostages' and 'women and kids held in detention' here, in real terms.
The difference is the "hostages" held by Hamas that are supposed to be released are civilian women (no IDF soldiers are being released per the deal) and literal children (it sounds like a 3 year old American girl is on the release list, plus there are other hostages aged 4, 5, 8, 9, etc, even a baby or two).
The "women and kids held in detention" are rioters and the like who are seen as less of a threat than other prisoners. None of the people being released have been convicted of murder apparently, but attempted murder, illegal weapon charges, plotting terrorist action, or some form of affiliation with Hamas are all on the list. For example, one 25 year old woman, who will likely go home, attempted to stab her 70 year old neighbour 6 months ago. The term "kid" is being stretched on that side as it includes anyone up to (but not including) the age of 19 per the deal. With a few exceptions, most of the people seem to be men 16-18 who were detained for harming regional security.
On November 23 2023 16:13 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2023 13:09 Mohdoo wrote:On November 23 2023 12:42 BlackJack wrote:On November 23 2023 11:41 Mohdoo wrote:
This situation continues to look more and more like "the gang holds Israelis hostage". Do we have any actual confirmation these 50 hostages are alive? This is starting to look like Hamas hoped they'd be able to pull a bamboozle. I think somewhere up the Hamas ladder, someone lied about the hostages being alive to save their own ass, and then that lie propagated up the Qatar ladder. And then based on that lie, the terms of the ceasefire included Red Cross being permitted to visit all of the unreleased hostages prior to the ceasefire. And now whoever lied about the hostages is super duper screwed. What are you basing this post on? The ceasefire seems to have hit a distinct snag once "Red Cross needs to be able to visit the unreleased hostages and verify their health prior to the ceasefire" became a hard requirement. I'm not saying its guaranteed someone dun goofed, but I think its a valid concern at this point. Hamas has been saying for weeks that dozens of hostages were missing/killed/buried under rubble from Israeli air strikes. Show nested quote +Late last month, Hamas said an estimated 50 captives held by the group were killed in Israeli strikes on Gaza.
Abu Ubaida, the spokesperson for the Izz el-Deen al-Qassam Brigades, said on Hamas' telegram account that 23 bodies of the 60 missing Israel hostages were trapped under the rubble.
"It seems that we will never be able to reach them due to the continued brutal aggression of the occupation against Gaza," he said.
Reuters could not immediately verify the statement. The Israeli army declined to comment. www.reuters.comSo I don't think you're reading the dynamics correctly.
Eh, one of the hostages that Hamas claimed was killed in an airstrike was found in Al Shifa hospital, apparently murdered by Hamas. I would take anything you hear from them with a massive pile of salt.
Hamas is in a bind on actually releasing hostages. It obviously wouldn't be good PR for women who were gang raped and tortured to be freed to tell the tale. I predict that most of the young attractive women hostages will be among those "killed in Israeli airstrikes" and we will never hear from them again.
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Yeah I feel like the whole “oh hey we found them, blatantly not killed by air strikes” is right up there with “hospital destroyed and 500 injured”.
Hamas’s number 1 priority is genocide. They are lunatics. Citing anything they say is not reasonable. Even the most extreme cases of whataboutism are not applicable when being compared to Hamas.
As it turns out, the terrorist organization that openly declares intention to kill all Jews is not trustworthy. I’ll be pleasantly surprised if they follow through on the Israeli hostage exchange.
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On November 24 2023 05:06 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2023 04:44 RvB wrote:On November 24 2023 03:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2023 03:12 RvB wrote:On November 24 2023 02:53 GreenHorizons wrote:
Regarding the deal, I am curious about why Israel abandoned their "we won't negotiate" stance to take this deal and what it might mean going forward. As far as I've seen Israel hasn't given their reasoning and insists their invasion/illegal occupation will continue after any pause. They've been clear about their aims since the start. Release the hostages and get rid of Hamas. Negotiating for their release was always the most likely way to release at least some of them. They don't really lose that much with a temporary ceasefire. More time for Hamas to prepare and get on their feet but at the same time it's also a pause for Israel to prepare for the next parts of their campaign. Most likely sure (I don't think any serious people believed Israel was going to recover them through their bombing/ground invasion), but they essentially publicly rejected this deal/deals like them for weeks insisting they wouldn't negotiate. That the hostages would either be wholly released by Hamas without conditions and then Israel would eliminate Hamas, or Israel would destroy Hamas therefore freeing the hostages by eliminating their captors. I'm wondering why they abandoned that now. It's a position the US was openly supporting with Blinken saying things like "They need to be released, each and every one of them, now, unconditionally." So maybe some assessment of the situation (probably including internal pressure from families of hostages and their supporters in Israel, and pro-Palestinian actions in the US) finally made clear to both the US and Israel that wasn't going to work? I guess I'm curious how Israel is squaring this deal with their earlier position against even entertaining deals like this. They've been negotiating since the start. Don't think they've ever said there would be no negotiation. From apnews.com WASHINGTON (AP) — The negotiations hardly ran smoothly. But in the end, persistence paid off.
Six weeks ago, not long after Hamas killed more than 1,200 people in Israel and took scores of others hostage in a surprise assault, the government of Qatar quietly reached out to the United States to discuss how to secure the release of those who were taken captive by the militant group.
But the mission demanded extreme sensitivity. It was so secret that U.S. officials established a communications cell to reach Hamas directly and kept those negotiations tightly guarded throughout the U.S. government. Only a handful of people were aware of the talks, according to a senior White House official.
The cell allowed the small circle of negotiators to speak regularly without additional bureaucracy. U.S. and Israeli officials spent weeks scrambling to put together a deal that would free dozens of hostages held by Hamas. The White House saw that as the only realistic way to halt the bloody combat that has devastated the region for more than six weeks. Pressure from the US and the hostages families certainly made a difference as you say. They definitely repeatedly said there would be no negotiations with Hamas over hostages. Show nested quote +National Security Council head Tzachi Hanegbi said... “Israel will not hold negotiations with an enemy that we have vowed to wipe from the face of the earth,” he said, briefing reporters at the Israel Defense Force’s Tel Aviv headquarters. Which was part of what precipitated the outrage from families Show nested quote +His comments prompted fury from the families of the missing, with their spokesman accusing the government of abandoning them. https://www.timesofisrael.com/hanegbi-israel-wont-negotiate-with-hamas-on-hostages-now-will-remove-it-from-power/The AP article did mention something I found interesting about the US pressure Show nested quote + Biden vowed that he would not relent until all American hostages in Gaza were released. It would appear that the US pressure is specifically tied to the release of US citizens, not the hostages at large.
I googled around after your post since I was sure there has been talk about hostage negotiations for weeks now. The article you linked and the one I linked don't necessarily disagree. The AP article says it started around 6 weeks ago. That's around the time where Hanegbi denies they want to negotiate. After that I found multiple sources about the hostage negotiations: 20 oct, 24 oct,11 nov, 16 nov.
On November 24 2023 10:58 Mohdoo wrote:
It should be possible to let Red Cross see the hostages without any information leak, right? Cover their eyes/ears, transport them, make sure they don’t have some kinda GPS stuff on, good to go?
I am by no means an expert in this kinda thing, but I’m still not convinced the hostages are alive. Will be interesting if all the Thai hostages are released exactly as described. Back to wait and see I suppose
Probably but organisations like Hamas don't survive by trusting anyone. I also suspect that at least some of the hostages were killed by Hamas since if it was Israel it shouldn't be too hard to release evidence. But we don't know much about the hostages at all so it's highly speculative and Hamas has every incentive to release as little information as possible.
In other news more videos about the tunnels under Al Shifa were released and haaretz charted them. The tunnels were also shown to journalists. It's behind a soft paywall but you can access the article by creating an account. The picture is worth it since it shows that the tunnels are directly under the hospital buildings.
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Norway28561 Posts
Adding to what Cerebrate said, I saw this from AFP:
An examination by AFP of the listed names revealed that among them, 33 were women, 123 were boys under the age of 18, and 144 were 18-year-old men.
The youngest individual identified was 14-year-old Adam Abuda Hassan Gheit from annexed east Jerusalem. He was arrested in May for charges including "hostile sabotage activity, attacking a police officer, and throwing stones."
The eldest individual on the list is a 59-year-old woman named Hanan Salah Abdallah Barghuti, who was arrested in September for engaging in "Hamas activity, including money transfers." Among those listed, 49 are identified as Hamas members, 60 as affiliated with Fatah (the leading party in the Palestinian Authority in the occupied West Bank), and 17 are associated with the leftist Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP). The remaining individuals did not have a specified affiliation.
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Unfortunately we can't have both things: destruction of Hamas and respoonsibility of israeli perpetrators for war crimes.
For a short term, I will be satisfied by Hamas going down.
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I mean what irks me a bit. The IDF (in their countless youtube videos) is celebrating the finding/existence of tunnels as a big "gotcha" "we told you".
This doesnt sit right with me.
1) A bunch of tunnels (prebuilt by Israel according to a credible source in the former Israel PM) are not a commando central
2) Whilst Israel is throwing between 6000 and 25.000 TONS of Explosives on Gaza it is a crime that the "military Organization in Gaza" (they are obv. terrorists dont misinterpret this please) is building sth. that can maybe increase their safety a bit.
Like I am a bit flabbergasted if you look at this whole "tunnel thing" in an objective, unbiased manner how you can come to the conclusion "tunnels horrible" "devastation of huge area with thousand of tons OK"
Also am I the only one here who found it super amussing that the IDF showed videos with weapons (rifles) stored at an MRI machine? You dont need to be a genius to know how metal intereacts with MRIs.
Question at everyone (Im curious):
Did you watch "IDF youtube videos"? If so how credible did you find them?
(For me the answer is: I watched like 10-12 of them; Mostly they were incredibly bad & when u fact checked them 90%+ were straight up lies/fake)
+ Show Spoiler +
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On November 24 2023 02:51 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2023 02:14 Magic Powers wrote:On November 23 2023 23:39 JimmiC wrote:On November 23 2023 19:12 Magic Powers wrote:
This is exactly what happens when only one of two evil groups gets called evil. Which is the group not getting called evil? Here it’s like at least 90% calling the IDF evil and I think 100% of those who have written about Hamas have said evil. I'm talking about the international response. Haven’t multiple people posted how their governments were voting for anti IDF resolutions but not the other side? Tons of governments have changed their tune from full support to maximum restraint. Every article I read says this deal was done with massive pressure from the US on Israel and Im sure there is tons of other private pressure. Who’s publicly supporting Israel right now with anything more than the most basic tepid response? I do not understand this narrative. It is hard to find anything that is remotely “pro Israel” unless it is from a paper in Israel or from the anti defamation league. Israel is wildly unpopular basically everywhere.
Support among Americans after October 7 was massively in Israel's favor. It has declined significantly over the last few weeks - and that is good progress - but it's still very favorable for Israel. Support for Palestinians is slowly increasing, but the general consensus is very much on Israel's side.
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On November 24 2023 18:54 hitthat wrote:
Unfortunately we can't have both things: destruction of Hamas and respoonsibility of israeli perpetrators for war crimes.
For a short term, I will be satisfied by Hamas going down.
West Bank is proof this will fix everything
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On November 24 2023 21:57 MaGic~PhiL wrote:I mean what irks me a bit. The IDF (in their countless youtube videos) is celebrating the finding/existence of tunnels as a big "gotcha" "we told you". This doesnt sit right with me. 1) A bunch of tunnels (prebuilt by Israel according to a credible source in the former Israel PM) are not a commando central 2) Whilst Israel is throwing between 6000 and 25.000 TONS of Explosives on Gaza it is a crime that the "military Organization in Gaza" (they are obv. terrorists dont misinterpret this please) is building sth. that can maybe increase their safety a bit. Like I am a bit flabbergasted if you look at this whole "tunnel thing" in an objective, unbiased manner how you can come to the conclusion "tunnels horrible" "devastation of huge area with thousand of tons OK" Also am I the only one here who found it super amussing that the IDF showed videos with weapons (rifles) stored at an MRI machine? You dont need to be a genius to know how metal intereacts with MRIs. Question at everyone (Im curious): Did you watch "IDF youtube videos"? If so how credible did you find them? (For me the answer is: I watched like 10-12 of them; Mostly they were incredibly bad & when u fact checked them 90%+ were straight up lies/fake) + Show Spoiler +
Documenting an extensive tunnel network directly under civilian infrastructure is only a gotcha for the people who just decided last week that Hamas had no connections to Al Shifa. Otherwise it's just providing evidence that there are enemy military installations where Israel is operating. Which removes the protected status of those areas under the Geneva Conventions.
1) There was an underground area built by Israel for the hospital, sure. The shoddily assembled concrete tunnels zig zagging the area were not built by Israel.
2) There seems to be a perception that Israel's goal is to kill a bunch of terrorists, fly home, and declare victory. If that was the goal, I agree that it's not a very effective defense plan and this is not the best way to go about it.
The real goal could better be described as "regime change in Gaza." The Allies didn't have to kill every Nazi soldier to end WW2 in Europe, but they did have to march through Germany until Allied forces controlled the whole country. Then they installed someone else in power there to replace the Nazi regime. There are people alive today who served in the Nazi army, but Germany is nonetheless no longer a threat to Western democracy because of that regime change.
You don't have to kill every member of Hamas to accomplish regime change. Heck, if Hamas just surrender tomorrow, the killing could stop altogether (minus trials for those responsible for Oct 7).
The military necessity of anything is being measured by the stick of "will this help Israel take control of this area so someone else can be put in power besides Hamas." It's not that every given tunnel is a direct threat to Israel. It's that Hamas is a direct threat to Israel and they can't be removed from power unless you remove them from their bases of operation.
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On November 25 2023 01:41 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2023 18:54 hitthat wrote:
Unfortunately we can't have both things: destruction of Hamas and respoonsibility of israeli perpetrators for war crimes.
For a short term, I will be satisfied by Hamas going down. West Bank is proof this will fix everything
The West Bank flickers out of existence when people want to make the argument that Israel would stop killing Palestinians if Hamas was gone.
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On November 25 2023 00:33 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2023 23:37 Magic Powers wrote:On November 24 2023 02:51 JimmiC wrote:On November 24 2023 02:14 Magic Powers wrote:On November 23 2023 23:39 JimmiC wrote:On November 23 2023 19:12 Magic Powers wrote:
This is exactly what happens when only one of two evil groups gets called evil. Which is the group not getting called evil? Here it’s like at least 90% calling the IDF evil and I think 100% of those who have written about Hamas have said evil. I'm talking about the international response. Haven’t multiple people posted how their governments were voting for anti IDF resolutions but not the other side? Tons of governments have changed their tune from full support to maximum restraint. Every article I read says this deal was done with massive pressure from the US on Israel and Im sure there is tons of other private pressure. Who’s publicly supporting Israel right now with anything more than the most basic tepid response? I do not understand this narrative. It is hard to find anything that is remotely “pro Israel” unless it is from a paper in Israel or from the anti defamation league. Israel is wildly unpopular basically everywhere. Support among Americans after October 7 was massively in Israel's favor. It has declined significantly over the last few weeks - and that is good progress - but it's still very favorable for Israel. Support for Palestinians is slowly increasing, but the general consensus is very much on Israel's side. Source? That is different from what I'm reading, whether it is here or else where. There is also massive increases in antisemitism and Islamophobia.
the "jewish school shooting" in Montreal was prolly a couple of kids with a pellet gun. No bullets or shells were recovered. there was "minimal damage and no one was in the school." It might've even been a rock. When I was 10 I threw a few rocks through school windows in my day. I guess I'm a terrorist. News of the "montreal jewish school shooting" was broadcast far and wide. Ben Shapiro mentioned it on his very popular podcast.
ya, i'm hearing that about Canada. lolz. I can't speak for the whole country... but i can say something about the most populous region in Canada... southern ontario... where a third of the nation's population is located.
There are 5,000 Palestinian car flags every where in Mississauga (canada's 6th largest city). Some guy had his car flag ripped off. That is being labelled a "hate crime". Car flags get torn off occasionally in angry disputes. Now it is a "National News Hate Crime!".
in 2018, Justin Trudeau apologized for an "islamaphobic hate crime" that ended up being a hoax.
The cops are going to use alarmism about alleged "hate crimes" as an excuse to request more money in next year's budgets. I see no increase in violence at all. None. And the stats back up my eye test.
That is what is happening in southern ontario.
I can provide sources on all this stuff if required.
EDIT: SOURCES
islamaphobic attack did not occur.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-canada-crime-hijab/attack-on-child-wearing-hijab-did-not-happen-canadian-police-say-idUSKBN1F42JI/
it is hilarious how hard it is to find Trudeau's condemnation of the fake attack Its been wiped from the internet. LOL.
Here is Trudeau condemning the attack. He never retracted his statements or clarified it did not occur.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/1/13/toronto-muslim-girl-scared-after-attacker-cuts-hijab
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On November 25 2023 02:28 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2023 01:41 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 24 2023 18:54 hitthat wrote:
Unfortunately we can't have both things: destruction of Hamas and respoonsibility of israeli perpetrators for war crimes.
For a short term, I will be satisfied by Hamas going down. West Bank is proof this will fix everything The West Bank flickers out of existence when people want to make the argument that Israel would stop killing Palestinians if Hamas was gone.
Are you saying there is no terrorist activity in the West Bank?
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Northern Ireland23900 Posts
On November 25 2023 00:33 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2023 23:37 Magic Powers wrote:On November 24 2023 02:51 JimmiC wrote:On November 24 2023 02:14 Magic Powers wrote:On November 23 2023 23:39 JimmiC wrote:On November 23 2023 19:12 Magic Powers wrote:
This is exactly what happens when only one of two evil groups gets called evil. Which is the group not getting called evil? Here it’s like at least 90% calling the IDF evil and I think 100% of those who have written about Hamas have said evil. I'm talking about the international response. Haven’t multiple people posted how their governments were voting for anti IDF resolutions but not the other side? Tons of governments have changed their tune from full support to maximum restraint. Every article I read says this deal was done with massive pressure from the US on Israel and Im sure there is tons of other private pressure. Who’s publicly supporting Israel right now with anything more than the most basic tepid response? I do not understand this narrative. It is hard to find anything that is remotely “pro Israel” unless it is from a paper in Israel or from the anti defamation league. Israel is wildly unpopular basically everywhere. Support among Americans after October 7 was massively in Israel's favor. It has declined significantly over the last few weeks - and that is good progress - but it's still very favorable for Israel. Support for Palestinians is slowly increasing, but the general consensus is very much on Israel's side. Source? That is different from what I'm reading, whether it is here or else where. There is also massive increases in antisemitism and Islamophobia.
The three things can coexist. Indeed from my experience state support of Israel fuels anti-Semitic sentiment as much as almost anything else does. Most anti-Semitic conspiracies invoke the idea of Jews controlling things from the shadows, so that’s taken as ‘evidence’ of such a process.
Ireland, IMO an incredibly naive nation when it comes to perceiving themselves as immune to far right populism has recently joined the ‘proud’ pantheon of Western nations experiencing race-related riots, as well as the crossover nobody wanted with Islamophobia.
I’d definitely say both phenomena are on the rise, although for differing reasons. Islamophobia is far more down to immigration worries, anti-Semitism tends to be more insidiously tethered to ‘globalist’ conspiracy nonsense, and if not that then to the state of Israel
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On November 25 2023 03:18 WombaT wrote:
I’d definitely say both phenomena are on the rise, although for differing reasons. Islamophobia is far more down to immigration worries, anti-Semitism tends to be more insidiously tethered to ‘globalist’ conspiracy nonsense, and if not that then to the state of Israel
The common denominator is the lazy locals. Every country has a batch of lazy locals. People that have been there for generations and have no intention on moving up in the world. When they see a jew or a guy from italy or a guy from india arrive ... he learns a new culture and language or 2 languages... works 60+ hours a week... never consumes alcohol.. and 10 years later they are an economic success. it makes it tough for the lazy locals to complain that it is impossible to "make it in this evil world".
my family was resented by the french locals in quebec,canada because we made sure our kids spoke both french and english. meh, its their loss. If you can only speak 1 of Canada's official languages you are putting yourself at a big economic disadvantage. was it a PITA taking english lessons? ya. so what.. welcome to life. life is pain,.
in 2023, this resentment would be given the big terrible label of "anti semitism".
just think, if i couldn't speak english i wouldn't be able to talk about Starcraft on this forum board. talk about life enrichment! 
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EPT
