EPTThings Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine - Page 118
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xM(Z
Romania5277 Posts
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9351 Posts
I'm curious as to the difference between 'hostages' and 'women and kids held in detention' here, in real terms. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3709 Posts
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/21/politics/negotiations-israel-hamas-hostages/index.html (edit: just noticed my comment reads like bot spam on Youtube fml) | ||
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
On November 22 2023 12:36 JimmiC wrote: I did not say he did, I said it. I'm not even sure what assumptions you are using to come up with what you think my posts are about. Well. Again we are talking past each other. I quoted what he literally said. You quote that and reply so ofc I assumed you would work with the statement of him I was talking about/referring to. That is how quoting works and how a good and faithful discussion works. Seeing as you already did this several times (quoting stuff and then completely not engaging in with what you quoted) I should ofc not have been surprised. This is not how fair people discuss. I am sorry. You also replied to a post I directed specifically at RenSC2 as if it was directed @u. You didn't even find the courage to admit that. You didn't find the courage to retract your antisemitism statement. You instead decided to shift the goalpost from 'people in here are antisemitic' to 'antisemitism exists' or sth Meanwhile I immediately apologized multiple times when someone pointed out that I miscaracterized his view. You are a spineless. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15401 Posts
On November 22 2023 20:35 MaGic~PhiL wrote: Well. Again we are talking past each other. I quoted what he literally said. You quote that and reply so ofc I assumed you would work with the statement of him I was talking about/referring to. That is how quoting works and how a good and faithful discussion works. Seeing as you already did this several times (quoting stuff and then completely not engaging in with what you quoted) I should ofc not have been surprised. This is not how fair people discuss. I am sorry. You also replied to a post I directed specifically at RenSC2 as if it was directed @u. You didn't even find the courage to admit that. You didn't find the courage to retract your antisemitism statement. You instead decided to shift the goalpost from 'people in here are antisemitic' to 'antisemitism exists' or sth Meanwhile I immediately apologized multiple times when someone pointed out that I miscaracterized his view. You are a spineless. My dude, you have no incentive to be this rude. We’re just some folks talking and you don’t need to pad your posts with all this condescension. You harm the conversation and the social environment by posting like this. We can all disagree while also being respectful. As I’m sure you’ve noticed, I extremely strongly disagree with a wide variety of folks here and I don’t let it trick me into being a meanie. If I can do it, you can too! | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9351 Posts
On November 22 2023 23:29 JimmiC wrote: That is a very good question! edit: from what I can tell from some google searching is that the IDF is now arresting 120 people a day, and since the start of the war they have over doubled the number of prisoners. It appears the women and children were taken from the homes when they were looking for Hamas members so they appear to be family of the Hamas members (maybe higher ranking members). I think hostage is probably an apt description unless I come across something else it appears they were taken to trade back for the Israeli hostages. The only thing I can imagine is that when a state uses state apparatus to take hostages they aren't called hostages. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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maybenexttime
Poland5452 Posts
On November 22 2023 12:23 MaGic~PhiL wrote: But he didn't write that IDF is attacking hamas inside their territory. He wrote that Hamas is attacking IDF inside gaza/hamas territory. Which is weird. Again Israel started an offensive So IDF is attacking It really isn't that complicated. If u are using attacking as a substitute for armed fight I can see the confusion. I'm thinking of 'who is doing the offensive'.. And thus it feels absurd to me. In the same vein as someone saying.. During ww2 Poland was attacking Germany No. Germany was attacking Poland And after the terror attacks on 7 October.. Israel started attacking palestine/hamas/Gaza This isn't rocket science Towards the end of the war, Polish troops were taking part in the Battle of Berlin. By your definition, Poland was attacking Germany. | ||
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
The same is true for Israel Palestine/Gaza. After 7 Oct Israel was planning and eventually quickly after that Date indeed factually attacking /bombing Gaza. It is absurd to say that Hamas is attacking IDF/Israel in that period/time frame when the IDF is inside Gaza. Location matters. I am sorry. Im talking about historic facts. Maybe the word invading would make it clearler than attacking. Maybe that is the problem. If that causes confusion, my bad. I mean the statement "when IDF is attacking Hamas in Gaza.. and Hamas is fighting back.. then Hamas is also attacking" is so self-explaining that this surely is not what I or RenSC2 or JimmiC are talking about is it? During Oct 7 Hamas attacked Israel. After Oct 7 Israel began attacking Hamas/Gaza/Palestine. How are these sentences even contentious. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15401 Posts
On November 23 2023 03:13 MaGic~PhiL wrote: You guys are unreal trolls. Ofc every single nation/tribe ever also attacked in a war if you equate fighting/killing/murdering with attacking. However Im obviously talking about historic events. And even though polish fighters did obv attack german military and in the end even Germany itself it is blatantly obvious that from a historc viewpoint the question: "Did Germany attack/invade Poland during WW2 or did Poland attack/invade Germany during World War 2?" can only be answered in one sane way. The same is true for Israel Palestine/Gaza. After 7 Oct Israel was planning and eventually quickly after that Date indeed factually attacking /bombing Gaza. It is absurd to say that Hamas is attacking IDF/Israel in that period/time frame when the IDF is inside Gaza. Location matters. I am sorry. Im talking about historic facts. Maybe the word invading would make it clearler than attacking. Maybe that is the problem. If that causes confusion, my bad. I mean the statement "when IDF is attacking Hamas in Gaza.. and Hamas is fighting back.. then Hamas is also attacking" is so self-explaining that this surely is not what I or RenSC2 or JimmiC are talking about is it? During Oct 7 Hamas attacked Israel. After Oct 7 Israel began attacking Hamas/Gaza/Palestine. How are these sentences even contentious. It’s not really clear what you’re even saying at this point. Perhaps it would make sense to leave the semantics component of the discussion on hold and try to get back to what your original point was. One of the main components of this discussion that divides people is how we define “who started it”. There are a lot of different perspectives on what time period should be considered when people obsess over trying to frame the conflict as inherently ethically 1 sided. Since Jews are mentioned at great length in the Quran, it is difficult to try to say they first met in 1948, but what land and what dates you consider in moral assessment of historical events is generally a non-starter for discussion. You’ll notice a lot of these discussions involve someone saying “yeah but they only did that because they were victimized previously, so it was justified, whereas the response to the self defense was what continued the conflict” and that these responses come from both polarities. So that is likely why it’s hard to find agreement on what is an attack and what is a response, because it’s generally attached to a desire to frame one side as fundamentally less moral than the other. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3709 Posts
Israel and Gaza share a border, and that border has been crossed by the IDF to bring the fight to Hamas. There is no more fighting going on in Israel, hence it is logical to call this an attacking effort by the IDF and a defending effort by Hamas. The words "attack" or "defense" aren't a judgement of the morality of the conflict but simply a pragmatic description of the situation. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15401 Posts
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BlackJack
United States10183 Posts
On November 23 2023 11:41 Mohdoo wrote: This situation continues to look more and more like "the gang holds Israelis hostage". Do we have any actual confirmation these 50 hostages are alive? This is starting to look like Hamas hoped they'd be able to pull a bamboozle. I think somewhere up the Hamas ladder, someone lied about the hostages being alive to save their own ass, and then that lie propagated up the Qatar ladder. And then based on that lie, the terms of the ceasefire included Red Cross being permitted to visit all of the unreleased hostages prior to the ceasefire. And now whoever lied about the hostages is super duper screwed. What are you basing this post on? | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15401 Posts
The ceasefire seems to have hit a distinct snag once "Red Cross needs to be able to visit the unreleased hostages and verify their health prior to the ceasefire" became a hard requirement. I'm not saying its guaranteed someone dun goofed, but I think its a valid concern at this point. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22736 Posts
On November 23 2023 13:09 Mohdoo wrote: The ceasefire seems to have hit a distinct snag once "Red Cross needs to be able to visit the unreleased hostages and verify their health prior to the ceasefire" became a hard requirement. I'm not saying its guaranteed someone dun goofed, but I think its a valid concern at this point. Hamas has been saying for weeks that dozens of hostages were missing/killed/buried under rubble from Israeli air strikes. Late last month, Hamas said an estimated 50 captives held by the group were killed in Israeli strikes on Gaza. Abu Ubaida, the spokesperson for the Izz el-Deen al-Qassam Brigades, said on Hamas' telegram account that 23 bodies of the 60 missing Israel hostages were trapped under the rubble. "It seems that we will never be able to reach them due to the continued brutal aggression of the occupation against Gaza," he said. Reuters could not immediately verify the statement. The Israeli army declined to comment. www.reuters.com So I don't think you're reading the dynamics correctly. | ||
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