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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
On November 17 2023 19:29 Liquid`Drone wrote: Something like 2.3 million Palestinians live on the Gaza strip. 12000 is roughly 0.5% of that, not 1.4%. I for one think that number (2.3 million) might not be all that accurate in the not too distant future T_T | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3731 Posts
On November 17 2023 20:57 RvB wrote: The claim was 1.4% of Palestinians. That includes the West Bank. As Drone pointed out your calculation is already wrong for Gaza alone. Including the West Bank it's .25%. It's not a minuscule difference. It's more than 5 times as much. Mate reread what you said in point 5. There are two claims: 1. Hamas has uprooted no Israeli people 2. The IDF has uprooted hundreds of thousands I'm disputing claim 1. Disputing claim 2 would, as you say, be absurd. If we take the definition of the ohchr: Then the Israeli citizens that were evacuated absolutely are internally displaced. I'm not claiming that the situation for displaced persons in Israel and Gaza are the same. Anyone with common sense can see that the situation in Gaza is much worse. For what reason would you include the West bank...? Hello? For what reason, seriously? Why not include the whole Arab world while we're at it? Are you seriously attempting to reduce a percentage by including as many people as possible in a calculation about the deaths of people in Gaza? Are you being serious? You also didn't mention what the displacement of Israeli people really meant in the context of the conflict. Half of them left voluntarily. The Gazan population did not leave voluntarily, none of them did. They were all forced out. And they did so under a realistic and direct threat of violence. You left that fact out, too. The Israeli population is not directly threatened to a degree that is worth comparing their displacement to the displacement of people in Gaza. They were ordered leave out of caution, not out of necessity. It's an attempt to reduce Israeli deaths to an absolute minimum, to basically zero if possible. The Palestinian population doesn't have that privilege, their deaths are not being reduced. These differences do matter, and you're just talking about numbers and nothing else with no context. The displacement of Israeli people is not in any capacity comparable to that of the Palestinians in Gaza. Not even remotely so. This matters, and you know full well that it matters. It completely changes the argument from a simple comparison of numbers to a much more relevant comparison of circumstance. The circumstance of the displacement is extremely relevant, so when I say that Israeli people have not been displaced, it is clear that this means they have homes to return to. Half of them could return right now if they wanted, the government isn't preventing them. They're also not meaningfully threatened by bombardment or by a ground invasion. You didn't mention that there's a clear distinction between one type of displacement and the other. You only objected to my claim of displacement, you didn't put it into a meaningful context while you were at it, and that's very dishonest. I'm calling you out on this dishonesty. You made it seem like a really large number of Israeli people were displaced just as a really large number of Palestinians were. You left it at that, you didn't add any necessary context to it. Furthermore you denied the claim of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians being displaced. You said that my claim is false. You're wrong. We know you're wrong because we know that Northern Gaza has been under constant bombardment, a huge wave of people has moved to the South, and Israel has ordered that movement. Don't act like your claims are more accurate than mine. You leave out relevant context and you deny obvious facts. Meanwhile if you see a half-truth you immediately jump on it as if you actually knew the truth. You don't. | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6196 Posts
This is what I said: 5 and 6 are also false. Hundreds of thousands of Israeli citizens are displaced and they're still suffering rocket attacks from Hamas and Hezbollah. My statement is that 5 and 6 are false and then I give the reason for that. If it was too concise and unclear that's my bad but I've already clarified my position in the previous post. There's no context that I left out. Hamas has uprooted people in Israel. That the situations aren't equal is not necessary to dispute what you said. If I make statements that you disagree with or are false you're free to point them out. | ||
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
imagine not being able to just say "Yes unfortunately Israel/The IDF has killed a lot of innocent children. not on purpose but as a by product of the war on hamas.." .. like.. how blatantly dishonest can you be these days in public as long as you are on the side that has the power & military might.. I mean I would just be flabbergasted if I was taking the stance RvB, JimmiC and RenSC2 are taking here and saw the interview. Like legit would doubt many of my views. @RvB Like I now know RvB in particular apparently does not like to watch youtube videos so I will take the time and Quote one of the crazy parts of the interview: Interviewer: " You accept your government has killed children, dont you?" Israeli Politican: "I do not. First of all you dont know how those children died." Interviewer: "Oh wow" Do you find that reasonable and a truthful reply? Like they legit think we are all stupid? Or is it Hybris because they think they are so powerful that they can get away with blatant lies anyway? | ||
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BlackJack
United States10340 Posts
On November 17 2023 21:32 Magic Powers wrote: For what reason would you include the West bank...? Hello? For what reason, seriously? Why not include the whole Arab world while we're at it? Are you seriously attempting to reduce a percentage by including as many people as possible in a calculation about the deaths of people in Gaza? Are you being serious? You're the one that included the West Bank by using the term Palestinians which includes inhabitants of the West Bank. You wouldn't include the whole Arab world because the whole Arab world is not Palestinian. What you meant to say is "1.4% of Gazans had been killed" but Drone pointed out that this is still off by nearly a factor of 3, which you blamed on "semantics" which is an absolutely wild explanation. On November 17 2023 21:32 Magic Powers wrote: You also didn't mention what the displacement of Israeli people really meant in the context of the conflict. Half of them left voluntarily. The Gazan population did not leave voluntarily, none of them did. They were all forced out. And they did so under a realistic and direct threat of violence. You left that fact out, too. The Israeli population is not directly threatened to a degree that is worth comparing their displacement to the displacement of people in Gaza. They were ordered leave out of caution, not out of necessity. It's an attempt to reduce Israeli deaths to an absolute minimum, to basically zero if possible. The Palestinian population doesn't have that privilege, their deaths are not being reduced. These differences do matter, and you're just talking about numbers and nothing else with no context. The displacement of Israeli people is not in any capacity comparable to that of the Palestinians in Gaza. Not even remotely so. This matters, and you know full well that it matters. It completely changes the argument from a simple comparison of numbers to a much more relevant comparison of circumstance. The circumstance of the displacement is extremely relevant, so when I say that Israeli people have not been displaced, it is clear that this means they have homes to return to. Half of them could return right now if they wanted, the government isn't preventing them. They're also not meaningfully threatened by bombardment or by a ground invasion. You didn't mention that there's a clear distinction between one type of displacement and the other. You only objected to my claim of displacement, you didn't put it into a meaningful context while you were at it, and that's very dishonest. I'm calling you out on this dishonesty. You made it seem like a really large number of Israeli people were displaced just as a really large number of Palestinians were. You left it at that, you didn't add any necessary context to it. Furthermore you denied the claim of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians being displaced. You said that my claim is false. You're wrong. We know you're wrong because we know that Northern Gaza has been under constant bombardment, a huge wave of people has moved to the South, and Israel has ordered that movement. Don't act like your claims are more accurate than mine. You leave out relevant context and you deny obvious facts. Meanwhile if you see a half-truth you immediately jump on it as if you actually knew the truth. You don't. Actually he could not have more clearly said that the displacement of Gazans is not on the same parallel as the displacement of Israelis: On November 17 2023 20:57 RvB wrote: Then the Israeli citizens that were evacuated absolutely are internally displaced. I'm not claiming that the situation for displaced persons in Israel and Gaza are the same. Anyone with common sense can see that the situation in Gaza is much worse. | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6196 Posts
On November 17 2023 22:12 MaGic~PhiL wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HD-yRuTasHU&t=15s imagine not being able to just say "Yes unfortunately Israel/The IDF has killed a lot of innocent children. not on purpose but as a by product of the war on hamas.." .. like.. how blatantly dishonest can you be these days in public as long as you are on the side that has the power & military might.. I mean I would just be flabbergasted if I was taking the stance RvB, JimmiC and RenSC2 are taking here and saw the interview. Like legit would doubt many of my views. @RvB Like I now know RvB in particular apparently does not like to watch youtube videos so I will take the time and Quote one of the crazy parts of the interview: Interviewer: " You accept your government has killed children, dont you?" Israeli Politican: "I do not. First of all you dont know how those children died." Interviewer: "Oh wow" Do you find that reasonable and a truthful reply? Like they legit think we are all stupid? Or is it Hybris because they think they are so powerful that they can get away with blatant lies anyway? I've watched some of it for you. I don't know what you expect of me. I don't support everything Israel does or says. There are some crazy people in Israel and sometimes regular people say dumb shit (me included of course). I can still broadly support Israel despite that. Just like you can support Palestinians even though Hamas is Palestinian. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3731 Posts
On November 17 2023 22:16 BlackJack wrote: You're the one that included the West Bank by using the term Palestinians which includes inhabitants of the West Bank. You wouldn't include the whole Arab world because the whole Arab world is not Palestinian. What you meant to say is "1.4% of Gazans had been killed" but Drone pointed out that this is still off by nearly a factor of 3, which you blamed on "semantics" which is an absolutely wild explanation. Actually he could not have more clearly said that the displacement of Gazans is not on the same parallel as the displacement of Israelis: No, RvB certainly did NOT make anything clear about the non-existent parallels. When he "corrected" my claims, he did not say anything of that sort. He only did that after I had already called him out. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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KwarK
United States42258 Posts
Someone has to not use their rights. | ||
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Cerebrate1
265 Posts
On November 17 2023 22:12 MaGic~PhiL wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HD-yRuTasHU&t=15s imagine not being able to just say "Yes unfortunately Israel/The IDF has killed a lot of innocent children. not on purpose but as a by product of the war on hamas.." .. like.. how blatantly dishonest can you be these days in public as long as you are on the side that has the power & military might.. I mean I would just be flabbergasted if I was taking the stance RvB, JimmiC and RenSC2 are taking here and saw the interview. Like legit would doubt many of my views. @RvB Like I now know RvB in particular apparently does not like to watch youtube videos so I will take the time and Quote one of the crazy parts of the interview: Interviewer: " You accept your government has killed children, dont you?" Israeli Politican: "I do not. First of all you dont know how those children died." Interviewer: "Oh wow" Do you find that reasonable and a truthful reply? Like they legit think we are all stupid? Or is it Hybris because they think they are so powerful that they can get away with blatant lies anyway? Thanks for quoting the part of the video you wanted to highlight! I'm with RvB on the video thing. The average post takes maybe one or two minutes to read while a lot of these videos are 10 minutes or much longer, which adds up pretty quick, especially if the intended point could be made in a sentence or two (and then we could choose to watch the video if we really want to verify). I actually watched the 2 minutes you highlighted in the hour long video you sent the other day too. I recall being basically on board with what was said in that 2 minutes for what it's worth. | ||
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
On November 18 2023 00:06 JimmiC wrote: Maybe you should try to read the people’s posts you disagree with to understand instead of to hate because most of the shit you are typing makes little to no sense and your shockingly sure of the BS you spew. It’s very disappointing. 1) Ever since I started participating in this topic you were the first one to get personal and claim that some people in here are antisemites. I started to get personal when people wrote outrageous stuff or straight up lied. 2) I dont know which hate you are talking about. Im just losing my temper when I feel like people are discussing in a way that is disingenuous. Has very little to do with hate. But maybe that is how you construct your world view at large? You post, post and post. Countless posts (you literally account for 70% of the last posts on the last 5-10 pages or sth) and many of them with little substance and then you feel that people disagreeing with you are getting annoyed are.. "hateful". Yeah.. ok then.. I mean construct your world in which ever way you want. But dont for one second think that this makes it true that .. I.. "hate" 3) I read peoples post extremely carefully & I understand some of it. Agree and disagree with some of it. Regarding your last sentence that is precisely how I feel about you (many posts, lots of faleshoods, emotional garbage, uninformed biased stances). And RenSC2 in particular hit the jackpot in that regard, simply misusing words to fit his narrative.. (claiming when u fight in your area/country/region u are the attacker and not the defender). Im basically just waiting for a response from him if he is willing to retract that statement or sticking to it. So no further thoughts on that video? And the Quote in particular? EDIT: Did not watch it myself yet but I imagine it could broaden my horizon.. not meant to sound in a bad way but for the time beeing I feel like my time is better spent reading & watching different stuff and keeping on building and refining my opinions this way.. The discussion here feels very useless and pointless at times. I will admit that my tone for the last couple of posts was bad and I definitely included too many ad hominems. Im sorry for that - that is one me. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22991 Posts
On November 17 2023 11:17 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: https://youtu.be/HD-yRuTasHU?si=o82GQ3D6qZyUU-3P So shameless it's almost impressive. Meanwhile, after repeated invitations from Hamas and medical staff, the UN High Commissioner of Human Rights has joined the calls for Israel to allow independent investigations into their claims. Israel has continued to refuse. The United Nations’ human rights chief has called on Israel to give his team access to Al-Shifa hospital in Gaza City, after Israel’s military released video of what it called a Hamas “operational tunnel shaft” in the complex’s grounds, a claim immediately rejected by the militant group and Al-Shifa medical administrators as “ridiculous.” Volker Türk, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, called on Israel to grant his team access to Gaza to investigate competing claims about Al-Shifa Hospital. “We need to look into this by having access. We cannot rely on one or the other party when it comes to this,” Volker Türk, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, told CNN’s Becky Anderson when asked about allegations by the Israeli military that Hamas was hiding weapons at the hospital. www.cnn.com | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21525 Posts
On November 18 2023 05:52 GreenHorizons wrote: hard to see anything but a swift agree as a statement that they are making up false pretences to attack hospitals.So shameless it's almost impressive. Meanwhile, after repeated invitations from Hamas and medical staff, the UN High Commissioner of Human Rights has joined the calls for Israel to allow independent investigations into their claims. Israel has continued to refuse. www.cnn.com | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6196 Posts
Article from Reuters on what comes next and the risk of insurgency. Also looks at who might lead Gaza and why Arab states are hesitant to take over security for some time. Nov 17 (Reuters) - Israel risks facing a long and bloody insurgency if it defeats Hamas and occupies Gaza without a credible post-war plan to withdraw its troops and move toward the creation of a Palestinian state, U.S. and Arab officials, diplomats and analysts said. None of the ideas floated so far by Israel, the United States and Arab nations for the post-war administration of Gaza have managed to gain traction, according to two U.S. and four regional officials as well as four diplomats familiar with the discussions, raising fears the Israeli military may become mired in a prolonged security operation. from its chief ally, Washington. As Israel tightens its control over northern Gaza, some officials in Washington and Arab capitals fear it is ignoring lessons from the U.S. invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan when swift military victories were followed by years of violent militancy. If Gaza's Hamas-run government is toppled, its infrastructure destroyed and its economy ruined, the radicalization of an enraged population could fuel an uprising targeting Israeli troops in the enclave's narrow streets, diplomats and officials say. Israel, the U.S. and many Arab states agree that Hamas should be ousted after it launched a cross-border raid on Oct. 7 that killed some 1,200 people and took around 240 hostages. But there is no consensus on what should replace it. Arab countries and Western allies have said a revitalized Palestinian Authority (PA) – which partially governs the West Bank – is a natural candidate to play a greater role in Gaza, home to some 2.3 million people. But the credibility of the Authority – run by 87-year-old President Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah party - has been undermined by its loss of control over Gaza to Hamas in a 2007 conflict, its failure to halt the spread of Israeli settlements in the West Bank, and accusations of widespread corruption and incompetence. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said at the weekend that the PA in its current form should not take charge of Gaza. He said the Israeli military was the only force capable of eliminating Hamas and ensuring that terrorism did not reappear. In the wake of Netanyahu's comments, Israeli officials have insisted that Israel does not intend to occupy the Gaza Strip. .... A proposal for a two-year transitional administration of technocrats in Gaza backed by U.N. and Arab forces has been floated by Western partners and some Middle Eastern states, diplomats said. But there has been resistance from key Arab governments – including Egypt - to being drawn into what they regard as the Gaza quagmire, the diplomats said. Regional powers fear that any Arab forces deployed in Gaza might have to use force against Palestinians and no Arab nation wants its military put in that position. www.reuters.com | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24417 Posts
On November 18 2023 11:12 RvB wrote: The bodies of hostages found in the vicinity are just a coincidence I guess. Article from Reuters on what comes next and the risk of insurgency. Also looks at who might lead Gaza and why Arab states are hesitant to take over security for some time. www.reuters.com May as well be as long as Israel refuses external arbiters to have a look around anything. A less trustful lot than even Hamas, heinous as they are, they arent perpetual bullshitters to this degree | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3731 Posts
News from two days ago: "Human Rights Watch said on Thursday that images released by Israel of weapons it says its soldiers found inside Shifa were not sufficient to justify revoking the hospital’s status as protected by the laws of war. “Hospitals only lose those protections if it can be shown that harmful acts have been carried out from the premises. The Israeli government hasn’t provided any evidence of that.” " https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/16/idf-says-hamas-hiding-evidence-of-use-of-shifa-hospital-as-command-centre?ref=upstract.com BBC says the supposed "unedited" footage was actually edited. This will only fuel conspiracy theories. News from yesterday: "Prior to their capture of Dar al-Shifa hospital, the Israel Defense Forces went to great lengths to depict the medical complex as a headquarters for Hamas, from where its attacks on Israel were planned. The evidence produced so far falls well short of that. IDF videos have shown only modest collections of small arms, mostly assault rifles, recovered from the extensive medical complex. That suggests an armed presence, but not the sort of elaborate nerve centre depicted in animated graphics presented to the media before al-Shifa was seized, portraying a network of well-equipped subterranean chambers. Even the videos produced so far have raised questions under scrutiny. A BBC analysis found the footage of an IDF spokesperson showing the apparent discovery of a bag containing a gun behind an MRI scanning machine, had been taped hours before the arrival of the journalists to whom he was supposedly showing it. In a video shown later, the number of guns in the bag had doubled. The IDF claimed its video of what it found at the hospital was unedited, filmed in a single take, but the BBC analysis found it had been edited." https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/17/idf-evidence-so-far-falls-well-short-of-al-shifa-hospital-being-hamas-hq If it's this hard for the IDF to provide good evidence, it begs the question how they could be so certain that this hospital was a valid target? And what about all the other hospitals? | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3731 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria3731 Posts
"The Pentagon said the US has newly declassified intelligence that claims to show that Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad were using hospitals — including Al-Shifa — as a “way to conceal and support their military operations and hold hostages.” However, John Kirby, a National Security Council spokesman said later that Washington had not signed-off on the specific operation around Al-Shifa Hospital and nor did it approve any of Israel’s military plans. It was “not a focus” of US President Joe Biden’s phone call on Tuesday with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Kirby said. He reiterated that the US believes Israel should not target hospitals in Gaza from the air and that civilians should be protected from the crossfire." https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/15/middleeast/shifa-hospital-gaza-idf-intl/index.html | ||
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Ryzel
United States521 Posts
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