NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.
On November 17 2023 10:41 Salazarz wrote: How the fuck do you figure that Israel is 'following rules of war' when just about every humanitarian organization involved in the region has repeatedly accused them of war crimes, just about every nation in the world -- including their staunch allies such as the US -- have called them out for unlawful killings and assassinations, and they have consistently refused to cooperate with any and all investigations into any of this stuff?
It's incredible how you keep accusing other people of 'bias' while simultaneously completely rejecting all evidence that runs contrary to whatever beliefs you have. It's also quite telling how you specifically point out how 'We all have empathy for the Israeli people and even their rage' but not a word about empathy for Palestinians.
Yes I was putting up the parts that were controversial. I also did not put up there that the grass is green.
The sad part is that it’s controversial for some of us to have empathy for Israeli’s but everyone has empathy for Palestinians. Very little for Hamas, you have to remember we consider Hamas different than Palestinians, and more than that we do not believe they support Palestinians interests.
Edit: can you source the UN resolution accusing Israel of war crimes? I’d like to read it, when I try to Google it I get nothing official.
If everyone has empathy for the Palestinians the Western world sure as fuck has a strange way of showing it.
Aside from almost exclusively the political left the best the Palestinians get is a bit of ‘oh that’s such a shame’ flashes of sympathy from folks who’ll then defend Israel’s right to bomb them back to the stone age.
For such a controversial stance it’s remarkable how much of the Western world is in lockstep in letting Israel do as it pleases.
That’s an interesting possible development, I feel multilateral peacekeeping forces are really rather underutilised and this would seem a prudent time and place for such a deployment
If Israel successfully removes Hamas as the governing power in Gaza, who would you prefer to be given guns to stop Hamas from returning to power? Keep in mind, the most likely alternative to this international force would be Israel itself.
Here is my previous post on the topic for other ideas of who could do it:
On November 04 2023 08:46 Magic Powers wrote: I'm missing the part of the discussion that concludes that the terrorist organization of Hamas can be brought to its knees through military intervention. Where is that argument and why is it not being discussed? I strongly disagree with the idea and I've yet to see a compelling argument that the plan can realistically work, at least without a full and indefinite occupation of Gaza. Does anyone actually truly believe that Israel can destroy Hamas militarily or is that only political chest beating?
Can the terrorist organization ISIS be destroyed by military intervention? Because it effectively was. I mentioned this before, but terrorists in caves are a lot less powerful (i.e. dangerous) than terrorists governing cities.
You are correct that someone else with guns will have to govern there to prevent Hamas from just taking over again though, so if Hamas is taken out, that is what will happen. Which leads me to a question I've been meaning to ask here:
If Israel successfully removes Hamas as the governing power in Gaza, who do you think should be put in charge of Gaza temporarily to ensure the best long term peaceful future for Israelis and Palestinians? Meaning, all of these come with an understanding of the power letting Gaza rule itself after some sort of de-radicalization Martial Plan type process. (All of these have issues, but I'll list them in the order I see as probably best to worst [if they would agree to do it].) 1. A coalition of Arab states (who have normalized relations with Israel) 2. Egypt 3. The PA 4. NATO 5. Israel 6. The UN 7. Immediate elections in Gaza
Edit: added the normalization parenthetical for the Arab coalition to exclude Syria and Qatar from intentionally ruining the de-radicalization process.
"...NATO Troops similar to the KFOR Mission in Kosovo", should've been sent even before israel went in gaza. i really doubt israel, after winning the "war", would want to leave gaza; from the beginning, it looked like they went in to occupy/conquer it.
On November 17 2023 17:21 Liquid`Drone wrote: A UN peacekeeping force could be sweet tbh, but they should also be in the west bank, and to protect palestinians as much as to protect Israelis.
On paper it's a good idea. But in practice it just sounds like an even greater disaster waiting to happen. The reason KFOR worked well was because they were in Kosovo with local support, protecting Albanians from Serbs. If they had been there to protect Serbs from Albanians, well... the Serbs already had that well under wraps themselves in a rather similar way to how Israel is "protecting themselves'/" from Palestinians.
And I just don't see a NATO force that is going to stand up against Israeli aggressions. It seems pretty easy for this whole situation to end in a massacre of NATO troops because neither side want them there. For the Palestinians, it's just another colonizing army. For the Israelis it's an interference and an annoyance. Rather than KFOR in Kosovo, it'll look like UNPROFOR in former Yugoslavia: a colossal fuckup.
On November 16 2023 23:48 Magic Powers wrote: @RvB
If you're unwilling to watch video content from people and groups you disagree with, you won't be able to understand their point of view. You can't understand the West bank or Gaza without seeing the images. You can read all you want, that'll never be enough to give you a true understanding.
These are old videos from Vox from about seven years ago, part 1 and 2. They're short and get to the point very quickly. I'm not in agreement with these videos by the way, since very relevant information has been left out. What's missing is mainly the perspective of the Palestinian population. The videos are an eye-opener though for a few reasons. For example in part 2 you get a glimpse into the mindset of the settlers. Please watch the videos first if you can and then read the rest of my comment.
Additional relevant information is that Palestinians in the West bank are under very heavy surveillance and tight restriction of movement. The settlers are extremely paranoid to a degree that they don't even realize it, because it has become normal for them to be completely overprotected. They hardly recognize how much space they occupy and how that occupation combined with many roads and checkpoints negatively affects the Palestinians living nearby. They don't realize that their extreme safety hinges on oppression. One of the settlers uses the following words at 5:35 in part 2: "It sounds paradoxical but this just seems like the safest place in the world." This statement should raise more than a few eyebrows for a few different reasons. One of the questions would be why one of the most conflicted areas in the world would at the same time feel the safest? The answer lies in the Israeli oppression of the Palestinian population. This settler is a prime example of what it looks like when a massively privileged population bears the fruits of decades long oppression. One of the worst conflict zones in the world, to him, feels almost like paradise.
Edit: other relevant information is that about four times more Arabs live in the West bank compared to Israeli settlers - and yet the space they occupy is almost the exact opposite. The Israeli population is absolutely exploding in this region both in total numbers and in living space, and that's because the Israeli government funds and protects them while cutting off everyone else.
You're right. Sometimes video and pictures are better than text and a necessity. What I said was false. I watch some videos like from the Hamas attacks and the consequences of Israels attacks on Gaza. I just have a large preference for text and avoid videos if I can. As you say yourself they often leave out a large amount of information. Often so much that the videos are unreliable and wrong. My background is in Economics and Finance and I don't think I've seen one YouTube video on the subject that is accurate. They're all a disaster quite frankly.
For the rest of the post I'm not sure what the point is. I dont support the settlements and I never have. I also do not think anyone in the thread does.
On November 17 2023 01:46 BlackJack wrote: To me RvB‘s postings have been quite reasonable and rational, even though they mostly oppose my own opinions. “Watch this youtube and respond” is a lazy way to argue and I see no issue if RvB doesn’t want to participate with that. It’s especially bizarre to consider it as a “refusal to respond to things that contradict his view” considering he’s been doing that for the entirety of this thread. People were able to have discussions before YouTube was invented. If someone is unable to adequately summarize and relay a YouTube video into words that seems like their failing as opposed to anyone else’s failing for not watching the video.
Thank you. Much appreciated. Much more than you can imagine.
On November 16 2023 10:09 Nebuchad wrote: This conversation is probably the closest I've been to thinking the world is a simulation because literally every three days it just resets and you guys loop back to talking about self-defense and none of the mountain of evidence that shows Israel isn't engaged in an act of self-defense ever gets addressed in any way.
I can't lie a part of me really thought that John Oliver would get through, he usually does.
You're right I should not have posted. The comment about the mountain of evidence is quite ironic.
As to John Oliver I don't get my foreign policy views from a comedian. He's no more of an expert on this conflict than me (not at all).
Ive watched a lot of stuff with him recently and it seems like his takes are/sound pretty convincing.
also: Whoever here is using IDFs Videos as proof of anything is out of his mind. Have you seen the types of videos they make? It is blatant propaganda if u ask me. As is Hamas stuff..
And I agree with Nebuchad.. it is truly annoying how it is always the same and no one changes his opinions.
Im not trusting hear - say, Im not trusting opinions, and Im not trusting either side (IDF,Israel, Hamas)
So what is left is listening to experts. I mean even trusting Videos these days is boarderline impossible with the technology we have. I dont know if you realize this.. like for real.. almost anything can be staged/faked..
that being said.. I doubt deep fakes really existed back then .. / this isnt faked.. so if we can agree on that..
What is your stance on this for the "PRO ISRAEL, we aint doing nothing wrong crowd and only Hamas is to blame for everything that has happened and is currently happening in Gaza ect.." on this? (JimmiC, RvB, and a few others)
Nice straw man. I've called out the settlements as a massive failure just a page before your comment. I'm not going to respond to a YouTube video. If you have a question or want to know where I think Israel displays unacceptable behaviour I will respond.
John Oliver is reading words off an auto cue. You’re not necessarily trusting him, you’re trusting the research and editorial team that produces the show. The guy reading is trusted only to be able to turn written text into mouth noises correctly.
I know. It does not change anything. I don't trust their research and editorial team. Shows like John Oliver are somewhat convincing until they address a subject you know a lot about. Then you realise they have no idea what they're talking about. At least that's my experience.
On November 17 2023 08:11 MaGic~PhiL wrote: I think I get it now somewhat. One side is looking at this conflict from a outside / meta view and tries to look at it objectively and from a policy / military stance.
The others JimmiC, Rens and RvB seem like they have a a certain view they want to or need to hold upfront. And they simply wont refrain from it.
Going as far as simly misusing words (fighting on your own land gets called attacking).. I mean come on.. at some point it gets a bit blatant doesn it.
I have no one close there. I have no personal qualms or biases. All I have is extreme pity for everyone there suffering. Israels and Palestines alike. However if Id have to choose numbers Id say on a scale from 1-100 .. the Israeli poulation is sowmehere at 3-4 on the suffering scal whilst most of gazans are at 79+..
And that is precisely what irks me the most.. RvB Rens and JimmiC in particular are writing here in a manner that makes you think the "level of suffering is pretty equal"..
Maybe you really think that? JimmiC, RvB, Rens, do you? Maybe you in fact think Israel on average suffers more than Palestine?
Like the way you talk about the imminent dangers of hamas to israel is so absurd. Tel Aviv is one of the safest cities.. Israel is extremely safe.
You paint a picture that is just simply not in line with reality. I am sorry.
If you think that there's not much discussion to be had. To answer your question no it's not that simple. Hamas, Fatah, and Israel have all had their role to play in the current mess. What it comes down to is that I don't see a way forward with Hamas. Leaving them in charge of Gaza will only extend the suffering.
On November 17 2023 07:06 RenSC2 wrote: @Magic Powers If a serial killer hasn't killed in over a month, should the police stop pursuing him? That would be silly. Even if Hamas laid down their arms completely, they should still be pursued for what they did on Oct 7th.
If pursuing the killer comes with the expectation of significantly more innocent lives lost than from not pursuing him, then yes the police should stop pursing. Especially so if the killer is expected to not be able to kill anyone ever again due to being exposed as the threat that he is, and thus the police being able to protect people properly moving forward. I don't know why this isn't clear yet? We've been having this discussion for many pages.
Are you under the impression that Hamas will never kill again?
It is not that you are not clear, or he is not being clear it is that you disagree.
I've made this argument so many times now, it should be well understood by now. Hamas are not a real threat to the existence of the State of Israel. Their absolute best effort resulted in not much more than 1200 deaths, and it took the IDF not very long to drive them all out and secure the borders. The next attack by Hamas is going to cost far fewer lives because the IDF can prepare for absolutely every conceivable angle of attack and they will not make the same mistake again of underestimating Hamas' will and capability. Furthermore, Hamas has already been militarily crippled in the past few weeks.
There is no realistic expectation that Hamas can kill another 1200 people in Israel. It's absolutely ridiculous to assume they can repeat that, because that assumption would require the IDF to drop their guard for a second time just as they did before October 7. It makes no sense. Hamas can't be considered so dangerous anymore at this point that it'd justify the killing of so many innocent civilians in the pursuit of destroying Hamas. It doesn't check out.
You have made that argument many times. It is just that many do not agree with it.
Israel has like spent more on defense by % than any country in history. They have a fancy anti missile system, walls that go underground, a listening system so advanced many people consider it a human rights violation and so on. And this still happened. It could easily happen again, hell you would be arguing it was impossible that his happened right up until Oct. the 6th.
If you look at history especially of this area it has changed who is oppressing who over and over again. The Jews have been on the bottom lots more than the top. It is naive to think it will never change again. You have a far larger population surrounding Israel that openly wants it gone and all the people of Jewish religion and heritage killed than those who want it to exist.
I do agree with you that the civilian cost is not justified.
Maybe this helps you understand my position better:
1) Hamas has killed roughly 0.01% (1 in 8108) people in Israel. The IDF has killed roughly 1.4% (1 in 69) Palestinians. 2) Hamas is no longer killing Israeli people. The IDF continues to kill more than a thousand Palestinians every week. 3) Hamas has taken a few hundred hostages. 4) Hamas has destroyed almost no Israeli infrastructure. The IDF has destroyed much of Gaza, mostly civilian infrastructure. 5) Hamas has uprooted no Israeli people. The IDF has uprooted hundreds of thousands of Palestinians. 6) No fighting is taking place in Israel anymore. All fighting has moved to Gaza. 7) The war has turned against Hamas a month ago. The majority of this war has been an endless series of successes for IDF and practically no successes by Hamas. The trend is completely one-sided.
Where do you get the 1.4% of Palestinians from? 5 and 6 are also false. Hundreds of thousands of Israeli citizens are displaced and they're still suffering rocket attacks from Hamas and Hezbollah.
1.4% is the percentage of Palestinians killed since October 7. The reported deaths are 12 400 and dividing that with the total number of Palestinians living in Gaza we get 1.4% or 1 in 69. Note that this figure is only increasing every day, so if the conflict doesn't end it'll go to 2%, 3%, etc. Everyone living in Gaza right now is almost certain to keep losing friends and family moving forward. Many or most of them already have. This is not true for people in Israel, they're safe.
I'm also not sure why you're questioning point 5, for that one we only need to look at the population of Gaza and how much of the Gaza strip has been bombarded. Almost 800 000 people live in the area, so it's very safe to assume that at least 200 000 have been displaced, and most likely more than that. That's because their homes are destroyed and they're fleeing.
Point 6 you're misrepresenting with your claim. The Times Of Israel states very clearly that those "displaced citizens" have been ordered to move by the Israeli government. Their homes are not destroyed and there's no credible threat that'd force them to flee. About half of the 200 000 Israelis who left their homes have done so voluntarily, so the government order applied only to the other 100 000. This is a safety precaution and not an absolute necessity, it has nothing to do with Israelis realistically having to fear for their safety. You can't compare this whatsoever to the situation of Palestinians in Gaza who were made to move by the IDF - simply by having their homes bombed.
On November 17 2023 19:29 Liquid`Drone wrote: Something like 2.3 million Palestinians live on the Gaza strip. 12000 is roughly 0.5% of that, not 1.4%.
Those are estimates, we don't know the true number. It's irrelevant regardless, because the difference between 1.4% and 0.5% is miniscule. If it's 0.5%, it'll likewise continue to increase until it becomes 1.4% fairly soon. So the objection is entirely semantics, not a disagreement in principle.
Edit: not only that, but if the true figure were 0.5%, it'd massively increase the total number of displaced Palestinians. RvB questioning my claim of "hundreds of thousands" displaced Palestinians would be absurd. It's obvious that it can't be any less than that. RvB is denying obvious reality.
On November 17 2023 10:41 Salazarz wrote: How the fuck do you figure that Israel is 'following rules of war' when just about every humanitarian organization involved in the region has repeatedly accused them of war crimes, just about every nation in the world -- including their staunch allies such as the US -- have called them out for unlawful killings and assassinations, and they have consistently refused to cooperate with any and all investigations into any of this stuff?
It's incredible how you keep accusing other people of 'bias' while simultaneously completely rejecting all evidence that runs contrary to whatever beliefs you have. It's also quite telling how you specifically point out how 'We all have empathy for the Israeli people and even their rage' but not a word about empathy for Palestinians.
Yes I was putting up the parts that were controversial. I also did not put up there that the grass is green.
The sad part is that it’s controversial for some of us to have empathy for Israeli’s but everyone has empathy for Palestinians. Very little for Hamas, you have to remember we consider Hamas different than Palestinians, and more than that we do not believe they support Palestinians interests.
Edit: can you source the UN resolution accusing Israel of war crimes? I’d like to read it, when I try to Google it I get nothing official.
Not everyone has empathy for Palestinians at all. What are you talking about. Your just making stuff up again. I just wont accept blatantly false statements any more. Retract that statement. It is _not_ true!
Same is true for RenSC2. His "attack/defend" statements simply were _not_ true. I want to know if he still thinks they are. If he does I want him to tell me what I did not understand and am missing (in particular the SCBW examples were extremely obvious and easy to understand and imo clearly showed he was blatantly wrong in his musings)
I mean maybe you do not apparently not realize this but it is incredibly unfair and frustrating that certain persons here periodically write untrue/obviously false things and mostly (or not at all so far?) wont retract them.
In case I am doing the same and not seeing it feel free to tell me.
(I apologized to someone for apparently distorting his view which I did not on purpose already e.g)
On November 17 2023 07:06 RenSC2 wrote: @Magic Powers If a serial killer hasn't killed in over a month, should the police stop pursuing him? That would be silly. Even if Hamas laid down their arms completely, they should still be pursued for what they did on Oct 7th.
If pursuing the killer comes with the expectation of significantly more innocent lives lost than from not pursuing him, then yes the police should stop pursing. Especially so if the killer is expected to not be able to kill anyone ever again due to being exposed as the threat that he is, and thus the police being able to protect people properly moving forward. I don't know why this isn't clear yet? We've been having this discussion for many pages.
Are you under the impression that Hamas will never kill again?
It is not that you are not clear, or he is not being clear it is that you disagree.
I've made this argument so many times now, it should be well understood by now. Hamas are not a real threat to the existence of the State of Israel. Their absolute best effort resulted in not much more than 1200 deaths, and it took the IDF not very long to drive them all out and secure the borders. The next attack by Hamas is going to cost far fewer lives because the IDF can prepare for absolutely every conceivable angle of attack and they will not make the same mistake again of underestimating Hamas' will and capability. Furthermore, Hamas has already been militarily crippled in the past few weeks.
There is no realistic expectation that Hamas can kill another 1200 people in Israel. It's absolutely ridiculous to assume they can repeat that, because that assumption would require the IDF to drop their guard for a second time just as they did before October 7. It makes no sense. Hamas can't be considered so dangerous anymore at this point that it'd justify the killing of so many innocent civilians in the pursuit of destroying Hamas. It doesn't check out.
You have made that argument many times. It is just that many do not agree with it.
Israel has like spent more on defense by % than any country in history. They have a fancy anti missile system, walls that go underground, a listening system so advanced many people consider it a human rights violation and so on. And this still happened. It could easily happen again, hell you would be arguing it was impossible that his happened right up until Oct. the 6th.
If you look at history especially of this area it has changed who is oppressing who over and over again. The Jews have been on the bottom lots more than the top. It is naive to think it will never change again. You have a far larger population surrounding Israel that openly wants it gone and all the people of Jewish religion and heritage killed than those who want it to exist.
I do agree with you that the civilian cost is not justified.
Maybe this helps you understand my position better:
1) Hamas has killed roughly 0.01% (1 in 8108) people in Israel. The IDF has killed roughly 1.4% (1 in 69) Palestinians. 2) Hamas is no longer killing Israeli people. The IDF continues to kill more than a thousand Palestinians every week. 3) Hamas has taken a few hundred hostages. 4) Hamas has destroyed almost no Israeli infrastructure. The IDF has destroyed much of Gaza, mostly civilian infrastructure. 5) Hamas has uprooted no Israeli people. The IDF has uprooted hundreds of thousands of Palestinians. 6) No fighting is taking place in Israel anymore. All fighting has moved to Gaza. 7) The war has turned against Hamas a month ago. The majority of this war has been an endless series of successes for IDF and practically no successes by Hamas. The trend is completely one-sided.
How is this a counter to any point I have made? What are you arguing against?
On top of that some of it is wrong. For example you are suggesting that all the people killed have been killed by the IDF, we know this not to be true. What the percentages we have no idea, but for some reason people keep liking to pretend that it is all by the IDF and that all of them are civilians.
You also do not seem to think that intention matters.
I also disagree that power imbalance makes everything Israel does wrong and everything Hamas does OK.
Look, at this point I don't know what you're arguing for or against anymore. You keep disagreeing with things, and then later it turns out you're not in disagreement. This keeps happening.
I know, and it is confusing and frustrating because I’ve been pretty clear.
It’s because there is things I agree with RVB, Ren, cerebrate1, and there are things I disagree with them about. We’re disagreed publicly in the thread.
I’ll try to be very clear about we agree on and what we do not. Those guys I’ve mentioned if I mischaracterize your position please feel free to clarify or correct, it is not my intent.
Things we agree on:
Hamas is a pure evil terrorist group that would happily kill anyone who disagrees with them and their world view regardless of race or religion.
That Hamas ‘s world view is horrific. From their open call for genocide, treatment of women, respect for human rights, any marginalized group and so on.
That Hamas does not have the Palestinians best interests at heart, they are the excuse and justification to do the awful shit that they believe god desires.
The people telling them this are the real problems.
We all have empathy for the Israeli people and even their rage.
We think it was disrespectful and offensive that not only before the bodies were cold but while Hamas was still in Israel committing every possible atrocity there were already posts here about the fascist, genocidial, ethnic cleansing Israelis were basically glad they had an excuse to do what they always really wanted.
That Hamas is very clear about their intentions, we believe them.
That Israel has decided to destroy Hamas within Gaza and they would prefer if no civilians would die and they could just fight Hamas, but that they are willing to kill civilians and destroy civilian infrastructure if that is what is needed to attack Hamas.
That Hamas is purposely imbedding themselves with the most vulnerable both because they want to dissuade Israel from attacking and their own civilians dying is a price they will happily pay to make Israel look bad.
That Israel is following the rules of war.
That Israel is not evil.
That not every criticism of Israel is antisemitism but that every person filled with antisemitic
There is more Im sure.
Things we disagree on:
I do not believe they are justified in killing and injuring as many civilians as they have to destroy Hamas.
That following the rules of war is enough.
That they even can destroy Hamas no matter what sort of damage they do in Gaza.
That I think the “best” option would have been for going after the high ups in Iran and Qatar and anyone supplying Hamas with weapons.
That this approach long term is worse.
Things I’m not sure on if we agree or not:
I think Bibi is an awful human being and should have been in jail long before this.
That there is a significant portion of the Israeli population that is awful and that they have a disproportionately high amount of power.
That people in this thread and on the left (and far right) have a very biased view on the history and current events. That bias may be unconscious or not.
Thank you for the clarification, this can definitely help make our discussion easier. The list of things that you say we're in agreement with is mostly accurate. I would agree largely. Otherwise I'm not sure what you mean with the second (disagreements) list and the third one. We seem to be in agreement about those things, too. I can't find any meaningful disagreements, unless I've missed one or two points. That's why I'm confused, we seem to be in so much agreement that there's hardly any room for us to have a debate about anything.
On November 16 2023 23:48 Magic Powers wrote: @RvB
If you're unwilling to watch video content from people and groups you disagree with, you won't be able to understand their point of view. You can't understand the West bank or Gaza without seeing the images. You can read all you want, that'll never be enough to give you a true understanding.
These are old videos from Vox from about seven years ago, part 1 and 2. They're short and get to the point very quickly. I'm not in agreement with these videos by the way, since very relevant information has been left out. What's missing is mainly the perspective of the Palestinian population. The videos are an eye-opener though for a few reasons. For example in part 2 you get a glimpse into the mindset of the settlers. Please watch the videos first if you can and then read the rest of my comment.
Additional relevant information is that Palestinians in the West bank are under very heavy surveillance and tight restriction of movement. The settlers are extremely paranoid to a degree that they don't even realize it, because it has become normal for them to be completely overprotected. They hardly recognize how much space they occupy and how that occupation combined with many roads and checkpoints negatively affects the Palestinians living nearby. They don't realize that their extreme safety hinges on oppression. One of the settlers uses the following words at 5:35 in part 2: "It sounds paradoxical but this just seems like the safest place in the world." This statement should raise more than a few eyebrows for a few different reasons. One of the questions would be why one of the most conflicted areas in the world would at the same time feel the safest? The answer lies in the Israeli oppression of the Palestinian population. This settler is a prime example of what it looks like when a massively privileged population bears the fruits of decades long oppression. One of the worst conflict zones in the world, to him, feels almost like paradise.
Edit: other relevant information is that about four times more Arabs live in the West bank compared to Israeli settlers - and yet the space they occupy is almost the exact opposite. The Israeli population is absolutely exploding in this region both in total numbers and in living space, and that's because the Israeli government funds and protects them while cutting off everyone else.
You're right. Sometimes video and pictures are better than text and a necessity. What I said was false. I watch some videos like from the Hamas attacks and the consequences of Israels attacks on Gaza. I just have a large preference for text and avoid videos if I can. As you say yourself they often leave out a large amount of information. Often so much that the videos are unreliable and wrong. My background is in Economics and Finance and I don't think I've seen one YouTube video on the subject that is accurate. They're all a disaster quite frankly.
For the rest of the post I'm not sure what the point is. I dont support the settlements and I never have. I also do not think anyone in the thread does.
On November 17 2023 01:46 BlackJack wrote: To me RvB‘s postings have been quite reasonable and rational, even though they mostly oppose my own opinions. “Watch this youtube and respond” is a lazy way to argue and I see no issue if RvB doesn’t want to participate with that. It’s especially bizarre to consider it as a “refusal to respond to things that contradict his view” considering he’s been doing that for the entirety of this thread. People were able to have discussions before YouTube was invented. If someone is unable to adequately summarize and relay a YouTube video into words that seems like their failing as opposed to anyone else’s failing for not watching the video.
Thank you. Much appreciated. Much more than you can imagine.
On November 17 2023 02:49 KwarK wrote:
On November 16 2023 17:33 RvB wrote:
On November 16 2023 10:09 Nebuchad wrote: This conversation is probably the closest I've been to thinking the world is a simulation because literally every three days it just resets and you guys loop back to talking about self-defense and none of the mountain of evidence that shows Israel isn't engaged in an act of self-defense ever gets addressed in any way.
I can't lie a part of me really thought that John Oliver would get through, he usually does.
You're right I should not have posted. The comment about the mountain of evidence is quite ironic.
As to John Oliver I don't get my foreign policy views from a comedian. He's no more of an expert on this conflict than me (not at all).
Ive watched a lot of stuff with him recently and it seems like his takes are/sound pretty convincing.
also: Whoever here is using IDFs Videos as proof of anything is out of his mind. Have you seen the types of videos they make? It is blatant propaganda if u ask me. As is Hamas stuff..
And I agree with Nebuchad.. it is truly annoying how it is always the same and no one changes his opinions.
Im not trusting hear - say, Im not trusting opinions, and Im not trusting either side (IDF,Israel, Hamas)
So what is left is listening to experts. I mean even trusting Videos these days is boarderline impossible with the technology we have. I dont know if you realize this.. like for real.. almost anything can be staged/faked..
that being said.. I doubt deep fakes really existed back then .. / this isnt faked.. so if we can agree on that..
What is your stance on this for the "PRO ISRAEL, we aint doing nothing wrong crowd and only Hamas is to blame for everything that has happened and is currently happening in Gaza ect.." on this? (JimmiC, RvB, and a few others)
Nice straw man. I've called out the settlements as a massive failure just a page before your comment. I'm not going to respond to a YouTube video. If you have a question or want to know where I think Israel displays unacceptable behaviour I will respond.
John Oliver is reading words off an auto cue. You’re not necessarily trusting him, you’re trusting the research and editorial team that produces the show. The guy reading is trusted only to be able to turn written text into mouth noises correctly.
I know. It does not change anything. I don't trust their research and editorial team. Shows like John Oliver are somewhat convincing until they address a subject you know a lot about. Then you realise they have no idea what they're talking about. At least that's my experience.
On November 17 2023 08:11 MaGic~PhiL wrote: I think I get it now somewhat. One side is looking at this conflict from a outside / meta view and tries to look at it objectively and from a policy / military stance.
The others JimmiC, Rens and RvB seem like they have a a certain view they want to or need to hold upfront. And they simply wont refrain from it.
Going as far as simly misusing words (fighting on your own land gets called attacking).. I mean come on.. at some point it gets a bit blatant doesn it.
I have no one close there. I have no personal qualms or biases. All I have is extreme pity for everyone there suffering. Israels and Palestines alike. However if Id have to choose numbers Id say on a scale from 1-100 .. the Israeli poulation is sowmehere at 3-4 on the suffering scal whilst most of gazans are at 79+..
And that is precisely what irks me the most.. RvB Rens and JimmiC in particular are writing here in a manner that makes you think the "level of suffering is pretty equal"..
Maybe you really think that? JimmiC, RvB, Rens, do you? Maybe you in fact think Israel on average suffers more than Palestine?
Like the way you talk about the imminent dangers of hamas to israel is so absurd. Tel Aviv is one of the safest cities.. Israel is extremely safe.
You paint a picture that is just simply not in line with reality. I am sorry.
If you think that there's not much discussion to be had. To answer your question no it's not that simple. Hamas, Fatah, and Israel have all had their role to play in the current mess. What it comes down to is that I don't see a way forward with Hamas. Leaving them in charge of Gaza will only extend the suffering.
On November 17 2023 08:31 Magic Powers wrote:
On November 17 2023 08:06 JimmiC wrote:
On November 17 2023 07:54 Magic Powers wrote:
On November 17 2023 07:31 JimmiC wrote:
On November 17 2023 07:27 Magic Powers wrote:
On November 17 2023 07:06 RenSC2 wrote: @Magic Powers If a serial killer hasn't killed in over a month, should the police stop pursuing him? That would be silly. Even if Hamas laid down their arms completely, they should still be pursued for what they did on Oct 7th.
If pursuing the killer comes with the expectation of significantly more innocent lives lost than from not pursuing him, then yes the police should stop pursing. Especially so if the killer is expected to not be able to kill anyone ever again due to being exposed as the threat that he is, and thus the police being able to protect people properly moving forward. I don't know why this isn't clear yet? We've been having this discussion for many pages.
Are you under the impression that Hamas will never kill again?
It is not that you are not clear, or he is not being clear it is that you disagree.
I've made this argument so many times now, it should be well understood by now. Hamas are not a real threat to the existence of the State of Israel. Their absolute best effort resulted in not much more than 1200 deaths, and it took the IDF not very long to drive them all out and secure the borders. The next attack by Hamas is going to cost far fewer lives because the IDF can prepare for absolutely every conceivable angle of attack and they will not make the same mistake again of underestimating Hamas' will and capability. Furthermore, Hamas has already been militarily crippled in the past few weeks.
There is no realistic expectation that Hamas can kill another 1200 people in Israel. It's absolutely ridiculous to assume they can repeat that, because that assumption would require the IDF to drop their guard for a second time just as they did before October 7. It makes no sense. Hamas can't be considered so dangerous anymore at this point that it'd justify the killing of so many innocent civilians in the pursuit of destroying Hamas. It doesn't check out.
You have made that argument many times. It is just that many do not agree with it.
Israel has like spent more on defense by % than any country in history. They have a fancy anti missile system, walls that go underground, a listening system so advanced many people consider it a human rights violation and so on. And this still happened. It could easily happen again, hell you would be arguing it was impossible that his happened right up until Oct. the 6th.
If you look at history especially of this area it has changed who is oppressing who over and over again. The Jews have been on the bottom lots more than the top. It is naive to think it will never change again. You have a far larger population surrounding Israel that openly wants it gone and all the people of Jewish religion and heritage killed than those who want it to exist.
I do agree with you that the civilian cost is not justified.
Maybe this helps you understand my position better:
1) Hamas has killed roughly 0.01% (1 in 8108) people in Israel. The IDF has killed roughly 1.4% (1 in 69) Palestinians. 2) Hamas is no longer killing Israeli people. The IDF continues to kill more than a thousand Palestinians every week. 3) Hamas has taken a few hundred hostages. 4) Hamas has destroyed almost no Israeli infrastructure. The IDF has destroyed much of Gaza, mostly civilian infrastructure. 5) Hamas has uprooted no Israeli people. The IDF has uprooted hundreds of thousands of Palestinians. 6) No fighting is taking place in Israel anymore. All fighting has moved to Gaza. 7) The war has turned against Hamas a month ago. The majority of this war has been an endless series of successes for IDF and practically no successes by Hamas. The trend is completely one-sided.
Where do you get the 1.4% of Palestinians from? 5 and 6 are also false. Hundreds of thousands of Israeli citizens are displaced and they're still suffering rocket attacks from Hamas and Hezbollah.
1.4% is the percentage of Palestinians killed since October 7. The reported deaths are 12 400 and dividing that with the total number of Palestinians living in Gaza we get 1.4% or 1 in 69. Note that this figure is only increasing every day, so if the conflict doesn't end it'll go to 2%, 3%, etc. Everyone living in Gaza right now is almost certain to keep losing friends and family moving forward. Many or most of them already have. This is not true for people in Israel, they're safe.
I'm also not sure why you're questioning point 5, for that one we only need to look at the population of Gaza and how much of the Gaza strip has been bombarded. Almost 800 000 people live in the area, so it's very safe to assume that at least 200 000 have been displaced, and most likely more than that. That's because their homes are destroyed and they're fleeing.
Point 6 you're misrepresenting with your claim. The Times Of Israel states very clearly that those "displaced citizens" have been ordered to move by the Israeli government. Their homes are not destroyed and there's no credible threat that'd force them to flee. About half of the 200 000 Israelis who left their homes have done so voluntarily, so the government order applied only to the other 100 000. This is a safety precaution and not an absolute necessity, it has nothing to do with Israelis realistically having to fear for their safety. You can't compare this whatsoever to the situation of Palestinians in Gaza who were made to move by the IDF - simply by having their homes bombed.
The claim was 1.4% of Palestinians. That includes the West Bank. As Drone pointed out your calculation is already wrong for Gaza alone. Including the West Bank it's .25%. It's not a minuscule difference. It's more than 5 times as much.
Mate reread what you said in point 5. There are two claims: 1. Hamas has uprooted no Israeli people 2. The IDF has uprooted hundreds of thousands
I'm disputing claim 1. Disputing claim 2 would, as you say, be absurd. If we take the definition of the ohchr:
According to the Guiding Principles on Internal Displacement, internally displaced persons (also known as "IDPs") are "persons or groups of persons who have been forced or obliged to flee or to leave their homes or places of habitual residence, in particular as a result of or in order to avoid the effects of armed conflict, situations of generalized violence, violations of human rights or natural or human-made disasters, and who have not crossed an internationally recognized border."
Then the Israeli citizens that were evacuated absolutely are internally displaced. I'm not claiming that the situation for displaced persons in Israel and Gaza are the same. Anyone with common sense can see that the situation in Gaza is much worse.
EPT
