Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine - Page 108

On November 18 2023 23:44 Ryzel wrote:
If Israel is lying about Hamas using this hospital and it’s actually a typical hospital, what is their purpose of targeting it in the first place?

On November 18 2023 23:44 Ryzel wrote:
If Israel is lying about Hamas using this hospital and it’s actually a typical hospital, what is their purpose of targeting it in the first place?

In the hours and days that followed, the community of al-Zahra, like many in Gaza, disbanded.

"Even for the people whose homes were still standing, there are no services left… the sewage systems are damaged, there is no bakery, there is no supermarket, there is no water, no electricity," Mahmoud says.

Mahmoud's block was not destroyed, although it was severely damaged. The neighbourhood where he built up his dental practice over 15 years, and became a linchpin of the community, is now gone. There is nothing left for him in al-Zahra.

On November 19 2023 02:21 Magic Powers wrote:


The parallels to 9/11 are striking. Terrorist strike, rhetoric, retaliation, it's all of the same nature. I'll begrudgingly eat my words if we ever get to see these tunnels, but until then I have nothing but skepticism.

1948 Arab–Israeli War
In 1948, there were approximately 150,000 Jews in Iraq. The community was concentrated in Baghdad and Basra.

Before United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine vote, Iraq's prime minister Nuri al-Said told British diplomats that if the United Nations solution was not "satisfactory", "severe measures should [would?] be taken against all Jews in Arab countries".[131] In a speech at the General Assembly Hall at Flushing Meadow, New York, on Friday, 28 November 1947, Iraq's Foreign Minister, Fadel Jamall, included the following statement: "Partition imposed against the will of the majority of the people will jeopardize peace and harmony in the Middle East. Not only the uprising of the Arabs of Palestine is to be expected, but the masses in the Arab world cannot be restrained. The Arab–Jewish relationship in the Arab world will greatly deteriorate. There are more Jews in the Arab world outside of Palestine than there are in Palestine. In Iraq alone, we have about one hundred and fifty thousand Jews who share with Moslems and Christians all the advantages of political and economic rights. Harmony prevails among Moslems, Christians and Jews. But any injustice imposed upon the Arabs of Palestine will disturb the harmony among Jews and non-Jews in Iraq; it will breed inter-religious prejudice and hatred."[132]

On 19 February 1949, al-Said acknowledged the bad treatment that the Jews had been victims of in Iraq during the recent months. He warned that unless Israel would behave itself, events might take place concerning the Iraqi Jews.[133] Al-Said's threats had no impact at the political level on the fate of the Jews but were widely published in the media.[134]

In 1948, the country was placed under martial law, and the penalties for Zionism were increased. Courts martial were used to intimidate wealthy Jews, Jews were again dismissed from civil service, quotas were placed on university positions, Jewish businesses were boycotted (E. Black, p. 347) and Shafiq Ades, one of the most important Jewish businessmen in the country (who was non-Zionist) was arrested and publicly hanged for allegedly selling goods to Israel, shocking the community.[citation needed] The Jewish community's general sentiment was that if a man as well connected and powerful as Ades could be eliminated by the state, other Jews would not be protected any longer.[135]

Additionally, like most Arab League states, Iraq forbade any legal emigration of its Jews after the 1948 war on the grounds that they might go to Israel and could strengthen that state. At the same time, increasing government oppression of the Jews fueled by anti-Israeli sentiment together with public expressions of antisemitism created an atmosphere of fear and uncertainty.

According to a police source, the investigation also indicates that an IDF combat helicopter that arrived to the scene and fired at terrorists there apparently also hit some festival participants.

...the pilots realized that there was tremendous difficulty in distinguishing within the occupied outposts and settlements who was a terrorist and who was a soldier or civilian...

The rate of fire against the thousands of terrorists was tremendous at first, and only at a certain point did the pilots begin to slow down the attacks and carefully select the target

On November 19 2023 02:21 Magic Powers wrote:


The parallels to 9/11 are striking. Terrorist strike, rhetoric, retaliation, it's all of the same nature. I'll begrudgingly eat my words if we ever get to see these tunnels, but until then I have nothing but skepticism.

On November 19 2023 09:01 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
Man I wished there was an ignore function on TL.net

I just cant anymore..

On November 19 2023 09:01 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
Man I wished there was an ignore function on TL.net

I just cant anymore..

On November 19 2023 09:08 Mohdoo wrote:


so we have any updates numbers from Hamas on that hospital that wasn’t ever actually destroyed and 500 people didn’t die?

On November 19 2023 08:43 Mohdoo wrote:
Am I just consuming propaganda?

Israel, the United States and Hamas have agreed to a tentative deal that would free dozens of women and children held hostage in Gaza, in exchange for a five-day pause in fighting.

The release, which could begin within the next several days — barring last-minute hitches — could lead to the first sustained pause in conflict in Gaza, according to people familiar with its provisions.

Under the terms of a detailed, six-page agreement, all parties to the conflict would freeze combat operations for at least five days while an initial 50 or more hostages are released in smaller batches every 24 hours. It was not immediately clear how many of the 239 people believed to be in captivity in Gaza would be released under the deal. Overhead surveillance would monitor movement on the ground to police the pause.

The stop in fighting is also intended to allow a significant increase in the amount of humanitarian assistance, including fuel, to enter the besieged enclave from Egypt.

The outline of a deal was put together during weeks of talks in Doha, Qatar among Israel, the United States and Hamas, indirectly represented by Qatari mediators, according to Arab and other diplomats. But it remained unclear until now that Israel would agree to temporarily pause its offensive in Gaza, provided the conditions were right.

A spokesperson for the Israeli Embassy in Washington said late Saturday that “we are not going to comment” on any aspect of the hostage situation.

Concern about the captives — two of whom Israel said were found dead — along with the rising number of Palestinian civilian casualties have steadily increased pressure on Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government. More than 100 countries — but, notably, not the United States — have called for a full and immediate cease-fire.

The decision to accept the deal is difficult for Israel, said one person familiar with the situation who, like others, spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive negotiations. While there is strong domestic pressure on Netanyahu to bring the hostages home, there are also loud voices in Israel demanding that the government not barter for their release.

In public remarks, Israel has remained unyielding, while acknowledging the pressure it is under. On Friday, Israeli National Security Council head Tzachi Hanegbi told reporters that the war cabinet had unanimously agreed that a limited cease-fire could occur only after “a massive release of our hostages … and it will be limited and short, because after that we will continue to work towards achieving our war goals.”

In fiery comments Saturday, Netanyahu said the offensive would continue, even as he defended a decision last week to allow the first steady fuel transfers into Gaza since the start of the war. As Israel has pursued its Gaza offensive, it has cut off all but minimal deliveries of the food, water, fuel and medicine that the enclave’s 2.3 million people depend upon for survival. “For international support to continue, humanitarian aid is essential,” he said. “Because of that, we accepted the recommendation to bring fuel into Gaza.”

Netanyahu spoke as thousands of hostage families and their supporters ended a five-day march from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem to demand government action, with many saying that the lives of innocent Israelis were worth any short-term deal the government has to make to secure their release.

After initial hesitation, the Biden administration, under its own domestic pressure between advocates of unstinting support for Israel’s war aims and concern over the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, has fully backed a temporary pause in the fighting.

Beginning with President Biden’s trip to Tel Aviv a week after the war began, and followed by multiple visits from Secretary of State Antony Blinken and other senior officials, the administration has pushed hard with Netanyahu to understand that it is losing the narrative high ground as more Palestinians die. The death toll in Gaza is now reportedly more than 11,000.

The administration’s highest priority, however, has been freeing the nine Americans and one permanent U.S. resident among the hostages. “I think we need a pause,” Biden said two weeks ago at a campaign event. “A pause means time to get the prisoners out.”

A week later, asked about reports he had pushed for a three-day stop in the fighting, Biden said he had asked Netanyahu for “an even longer pause.” In his news conference Thursday after meeting with Chinese President Xi Jinping, he said the hostages were “on our mind every single day,” and that he was working on a way to “have a period of time where there’s a pause long enough” to let them be released.

U.S. officials have said they believe a pause would allow Hamas to gather the hostages and arrangements could be made to escort them safely through the battlefield. It was not clear that the Americans or other foreigners would be included in the initial tranche of releases. The hope is that if the release of women and children is successful, other groups of captives will then follow.

Brett McGurk, the White House National Security Council’s top Middle East official, is on an extended trip to the region to try to solidify the hostage release plan, including meetings in Israel and Qatar. Speaking at an international security conference Saturday in Bahrain, McGurk said that negotiations have been “intensive and ongoing.”

The freeing several weeks ago of an American mother and daughter — among the four captives that have been released since the war began — during a briefly agreed pause to allow international humanitarian workers to escort them, provided a “track” for “what we hope will be a much larger release.”

McGurk told the conference that Hamas’s release of a “large number” of the hostages, believed to total 239, “would result in a significant pause in fighting and a massive surge of humanitarian relief. Hundreds and hundreds of trucks on a sustained basis entering Gaza from Egypt.” When the hostages are released, he said, “you will see a significant, significant change.”

It was “reasonable,” McGurk said, “to pause the fighting, release the hostages, the women, the children, the toddlers, the babies, all of them.” The initial deal does not include civilian men or Israeli military personnel, a number of whom are women, among the captives.

Those remarks drew an angry response from Jordanian Foreign Minister Ayman Safadi, who interpreted them as signaling that a pause allowing humanitarian relief would come only after the hostages were released unconditionally by Hamas. “There’s a lot of negotiations,” Safadi said, “but Israel is taking 2.3 million Palestinians hostage … and denying them food and water and by this war.”

An administration official said any assumption that the United States was conditioning aid on the release of hostages had “grossly misinterpreted” McGurk’s remarks. “Any type of hostage deal would likely result in an increase of humanitarian aid,” the official said. The United States, the official noted, has continuously pushed for an increase of humanitarian assistance to civilians in Gaza.

On November 18 2023 23:44 Ryzel wrote:
If Israel is lying about Hamas using this hospital and it’s actually a typical hospital, what is their purpose of targeting it in the first place?

On November 19 2023 06:43 Mohdoo wrote:
I’m continuing my journey to better understand this conflict, and one thing that has been unclear to me is the relationship between Jews and Muslims prior to Israeli independence in 1948. Folks who I generally disagree with have often said something along the lines of “Prior to 1948, there was not any significant conflict, but Jews taking Israel from Palestinians caused all of this situation”.

I had just assumed the general racism caused not many Jews to live in those Muslim countries, but according to Wikipedia, there were lots of Jews living lots of places prior to 1948. I’d like to just get some sort of “thumbs up” or “thumbs down” whether or not this is considered truthful or real or whatever from folks like GH and Neb who I consider very strongly anti Israel in this conflict:



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world#:~:text=Primarily a consequence of the,these Jews resettled in Israel.


Is this considered true, or is this another example of some kind of history the world doesn’t agree on? Since there are quotes from the UN and whatnot, this all appears to be very heavily documented and hard to imagine as fake or disagreed with. But there is so much disagreement on history and disinformation and whatnot that I have no idea. Ignoring the ethics or endorsement or whatever, do we all agree this is a real event, or is this contested?

In my eyes, this excerpt from Wikipedia highlights the fact that even though Jews and Muslims coexisted, the rumblings of prejudice, otherness, racism and whatnot was already in full swing. I’m sure Jews and Muslims were both prejudiced, but I feel like even just this excerpt frames how delicate and fragile the situation was prior to 1948. But it was clearly at least somewhat stable. So that part appears to be true given how many lived in these countries.

But there is one thing I’d like to highlight if we all agree these events are true: this is an extremely textbook example of collective punishment. And it’s a fairly extreme example.

What is most interesting is that there does not appear to be any doubt or uncertainty regarding how immediate the collective punishment became after 1948. It’s treated as if it’s the clear, obvious way to respond to the situation. The idea of all Jews in a country being punished over Israel is totally wild to me and makes it very hard for me to accept the way people insist this conflict should be contextualized. There is such a clear otherness dynamic in these countries before 1948 that they were issuing warnings before 1948 saying Jews all over the world would be collectively punished. And from the Wikipedia quote above, it’s not even just the uneducated masses being insanely racist. The governments acted on all this. But even if we entertain some dumb goalpost shift where the government is just trying to prevent a revolution from the racist masses, that means the masses were racist and were totally on board with collective punishment.

When Hamas directly indicates human shields aren’t actually human shields because all Palestinians are martyrs, they are clearly showing the entire ethical paradigm they work within is entirely separate from what we in the west are familiar with. Hamas did not confine their October 7 massacre to military targets. It was a killing spree. Hamas is clear when they say the goal isn’t just to wipe out all Israelis, but all Jews. But even if we confined it to “all Israelis”, it would still mean an egregious example of collective punishment, since all the folks living there are largely people just kinda living there. Much like how people like to point out Hamas was elected before many inhabitants of Gaza were born, treating all Israelis as combatants is purely collective punishment.

I think folks like me who have lived in the west their whole lives are failing to fully grasp how “us” vs “them” is viewed in the Arab world. Collective punishment of Jews is viewed as the baseline, standard procedure. And it feels like no one really sees a problem with it? That it’s somehow ok for Jews to be collectively punished because of 1948? When you look at how many countries over how huge of an area all immediately rolled out collective punishment for the actions of unrelated jewish people, it feels like there is a great deal of dishonest discourse around how this conflict should occur.

There is such a long history of collective punishment against Jews in the Arab world, and leaders of nations in modern day continue to emphasize the validity of collective punishment. Then when Hamas conducts an extremely grotesque version of collective punishment, Israel is expected to hold themselves to a much higher standard than their enemies are. It all feels intentionally dishonest. Is this some kind of implied racism where people are saying Arabs can’t be expected to behave in a non-collective punishment way and so israel needs to take the high road? Or are these Wikipedia entries simply not accepted fact?