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On November 09 2023 08:04 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2023 06:09 BlackJack wrote:On November 09 2023 05:15 WombaT wrote:On November 09 2023 05:10 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
Today I heard again on a german radio program, that some important person (forgot the name) in Germany for a jewish/israeli organization was claiming how horrible it is that "in germany there are people protesting right now being pro hamas"..
Honestly, I can not stand these lies anymore. Being on a rally for PALESTINE does not equate to being pro Hamas ffs.
On topic:
I have followed the discussion for several pages now and I can only recommend to magic powers and nebuchad to simply stop engaging with JimmiC who is extremely clueless about the history if the conflict and extremely biased at the same time.
Truly a waste of time engaging with such a person. I’ve been at two rallies over here, it wasn’t non-existent but what anti-Semitism and pro-Hamas paraphernalia I did see was sub 1 percent, if even that. It does exist sure, no point denying it, but it’s basically gaslighting at this stage with how exaggerated and conflated it can be with basic sympathy with the wider Palestinian people or critical of the policies of the Israeli state It doesn't really matter if the anti-semite, pro-Hamas crowd is sub 1 percent. Trying to label the larger group as bigots based on a super small minority is by design. Another example is the Ottawa trucker protests in early 2022. There was like 1 or 2 guys that had confederate flags that were quickly chased off by the larger group in the early days. Trudeau used that as an opportunity to label all the protestors as racists, misogynists, fascists, etc. The irony here is that it was people on the left that were either silent or complicit in labeling people that opposed them as bigots, fascists, racists, whatever. Now it seems to be mostly people on the left that support the Palestinian cause that are getting labeled as anti-semites. While I fundamentally disagree with this happening, it's hard to not appreciate the karma of people getting a taste of their own medicine. Trying to pretend it is not part of it like your Tucker Carlson version of the rallies in Canada is a large problem. https://ca.yahoo.com/news/politicians-jewish-groups-outraged-montreal-191029263.htmlAntisemitism is real and it’s not less than 1%. Thing is no one thinks they have bias, we think our biases are just correct, that is why uncovering unconscious bias is so important. I’d post how antisemitic hate crimes have been the highest even in 2012 but then comes the “those are exaggerated” talk. Islamophobia is real as well and both are no the rise. https://ca.yahoo.com/news/rise-in-antisemitic-islamophobic-threats-has-canadians-scared-in-our-own-streets-pm-says-203730875.htmlI really wish we lived in the few bad apples world where it was less then 1% but most of know that is not remotely true, do not suddenly believe it when it comes to antisemitism.
The point is this is just another iteration of "if you disagree with me you're a bigot." If you disagree on immigration policy you're a xenophobe. If you disagree on abortion you're a misogynist. If you disagree on LGBTQ issues you're a homophobe or transphobe. If you disagree on minority issues you're a racist. Now if you disagree on the Middle East you're an anti-semite. I think there's no better proof of that then the fact that you started calling people anti-semitic because why, they disagreed with you on whether forced displacement constitutes ethnic cleansing?
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On November 09 2023 14:04 JimmiC wrote:
It’s very strange to me when Israel has been very clear about their intentions, they are going to try to destroy Hamas and their entire infrastructure so they can never attack Israel again and they are willing to kill as many civilians as it takes.
That is bad enough you don’t have to upgrade it from there. If they wanted to genocide Palestinians they just would, they have the power, and technology to do it, and they would likely start inside Israel.
Like you guys are all saying they couldn’t be doing worse, a lot worse than now? Is there degrees in ethic cleansing to you?
Could Israel do worse stuff than they're doing right now? Yes. Does that mean they aren't already engaging in ethnic cleansing? No. It can be both at the same time! I'm sure the US was capable of ethnic cleansing of the western states in a more horrible way than they did. That doesn't mean it wasn't ethnic cleansing the way they did go about things there at the time...
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Northern Ireland23837 Posts
On November 09 2023 14:04 JimmiC wrote:
It’s very strange to me when Israel has been very clear about their intentions, they are going to try to destroy Hamas and their entire infrastructure so they can never attack Israel again and they are willing to kill as many civilians as it takes.
That is bad enough you don’t have to upgrade it from there. If they wanted to genocide Palestinians they just would, they have the power, and technology to do it, and they would likely start inside Israel.
Like you guys are all saying they couldn’t be doing worse, a lot worse than now? Is there degrees in ethic cleansing to you?
People aren’t coming to that conclusion based on Israel’s conduct in de facto wartime, but their conduct in relative peacetime.
It’s not particularly about their response to these Hamas atrocities, although yes that is part of it, but in the conditions imposed upon that particular area.
If I don’t know, Iran or somebody actually attacked Israel and Israel responded with their full military power, people would consider that very differently.
In a crude sense I mean nobody is particular pro dog beating, but if some dog attacked you in the park there’d be no great outrage if you defended your person. If you owned a dog, neglected it and kept it in a cage in perpetuity and it got out and bit you, people would feel differently if you beat the hell out of that doggo
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On November 09 2023 14:04 JimmiC wrote:
It’s very strange to me when Israel has been very clear about their intentions, they are going to try to destroy Hamas and their entire infrastructure so they can never attack Israel again and they are willing to kill as many civilians as it takes.
That is bad enough you don’t have to upgrade it from there. If they wanted to genocide Palestinians they just would, they have the power, and technology to do it, and they would likely start inside Israel.
Like you guys are all saying they couldn’t be doing worse, a lot worse than now? Is there degrees in ethic cleansing to you?
I don't think anyone here has said that Israel couldn't be doing worse. Israel not methodically genociding all the Palestinians is not as worthy of acknowledgement as you seem to think it is. Maybe set the bar a little higher.
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On November 09 2023 16:40 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2023 14:04 JimmiC wrote:
It’s very strange to me when Israel has been very clear about their intentions, they are going to try to destroy Hamas and their entire infrastructure so they can never attack Israel again and they are willing to kill as many civilians as it takes.
That is bad enough you don’t have to upgrade it from there. If they wanted to genocide Palestinians they just would, they have the power, and technology to do it, and they would likely start inside Israel.
Like you guys are all saying they couldn’t be doing worse, a lot worse than now? Is there degrees in ethic cleansing to you? People aren’t coming to that conclusion based on Israel’s conduct in de facto wartime, but their conduct in relative peacetime. It’s not particularly about their response to these Hamas atrocities, although yes that is part of it, but in the conditions imposed upon that particular area. If I don’t know, Iran or somebody actually attacked Israel and Israel responded with their full military power, people would consider that very differently. In a crude sense I mean nobody is particular pro dog beating, but if some dog attacked you in the park there’d be no great outrage if you defended your person. If you owned a dog, neglected it and kept it in a cage in perpetuity and it got out and bit you, people would feel differently if you beat the hell out of that doggo
In the dog beater's defense, they probably had the means and technology to exterminate the dog, but they didn't.
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On November 09 2023 11:00 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2023 10:40 RvB wrote:
The more reasonable explanation is that they're doing what's required according to international law and not more than that. Countries that act according to international law don't usually kick out UN observers or reject to cooperate with international investigators that accuse them of war crimes.
The terrible war crime of warning civilians hours before you strike so they can evacuate.
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I've delayed reading MaGic~PhiL's essay until now. I'd like to address one point.
"There is no way out of this pattern until one side exercises restraint or leaders on both sides find a new solution. Israelis will tell you that if Palestinians put their guns down then the war would end, but if Israel put their guns down they'd be wiped off the planet. I don't have a crystal ball and can’t tell you what is true. But what I am certain of is that every time Israel kills more innocents they engender more rage and hatred and recruit more Palestinians and Arabs to the cause against them. There is no disputing this."
Additionally, if all Palestinians were to suddenly behave like docile sheep, that wouldn't stop the injustice. The Israeli administration would continue to oppress the Palestinian population for who knows how much longer. Possibly forever. Why would they stop if they haven't stopped already?
So the claim that, if Hamas is out of the picture, suddenly relations will improve and everyone will be happy, is literal horse shit. Pardon my strong language. It's a complete lie, so people who argue otherwise are either liars or they're being fed propaganda.
I also briefly want to address two minor points. They don't seem particularly relevant to the more recent discussions.
1) I strictly don't believe in the concept of a "historic claim to land", so I think the legitimacy of the State of Israel was formed through time, but its origin was about as illegitimate as it can get.
2) Furthermore I'm not in agreement that Palestinian leaders prior to the Zionist takeover share blame for the loss of land by not accepting a partitioning plan. I've addressed this many pages earlier.
Overall it's a good essay that I can mostly agree with.
Much more importantly though, there should be a lot more pushback against the claim that the IDF's response is proportionate. It's strictly not. They're accepting unfathomable amounts of civilian casualties. The reports of deaths can't be so far off that this would turn into a point of contention.
It would be like right-wingers arguing that, nu-uh, it was actually only four million Jews that were killed. Oh, I didn't know. Four is less than six, which changes absolutely everything. Thanks for letting us know that the Nazis were in fact the good guys.
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To be quite honest: I never really understood the following thing entirely: Let me preface that I dont want this to turn into a comparison or even worse a discussion about 9/11 (and the following events)..
But I never got how sane people could accept that WHOLE countries were attacked because a GROUP of people of a terrorist organiation did something. Like if you truly think about it you can ONLY come to one or two conclusions:
1) The attack on an entire country/population because of a (terrorist) group residing in that country is absurd and unwarranted
2) The attack was never really about a terrorist group but about MUCH larger (multiple/different) strategic reasons (geopolitical, resource, power, intelligencies, military industrial complex, $$$.., Drugs, ECT..)
So please listen closely before your respond "Hamas and Palestine vs Israel Conflict is not the same as 9/11".. dont. I am NOT SAYING it is!
But there is at least one similiarity: Israel is doing what it is doing for decades now as a sovergein Nation vs a particular Terrorist Group. It is in fact NOT Nation vs Nation (dont be a smart ass here and tell me Palestine is not a country/nation.. that is semantics.. my point should be clear and logical..) but Nation vs Terrorist Organisation. And all the Civs in Palestine are suffering because of it.
Now some poeple are bold and say "the palestines get the ''goverment(hamas!?'' they deserve and they could uprise and just remove "the hamas".."
Sure thing .. as could have the Nazis during WW2 time as could the Israelies themselves with Nethanjau who is quite simply said .. basically committing war crimes.
As could have USA when a extremely SUS war was started vs. Iraq (Afghanistan made some sense.. at least) under mainly fales pretenses ect...
One last thing in particular @JimmiC .. Did you know that part of Israel Goverment Plans / Nethanjau plans always have been to strengthen hamas and keep hamas around, because the intelligences and goverment knew and knows that this will lead to only one outcome:
Eventually there will only be Israel and Palestine/Gaza/ ect.. will not exist anymore..
Clever isnt it. But also definitely a crime against humanity.
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One has to wonder if Israel, not that they don't want it, while in talks can do some digging and see if they can determine where the Hamas higher ups are located in Qatar.
The US and Israeli spy chiefs were in Qatar on Thursday, working on plans for a potential humanitarian pause that would allow as many as 20 hostages to be released by Hamas and more aid to enter the besieged Gaza Strip.
The three-way negotiations between CIA director Bill Burns, David Barnea, head of Mossad, Israel’s intelligence agency, and Qatari officials are focusing on a three-day humanitarian pause in Israel’s offensive to facilitate the release of 10 to 20 civilian hostages, said an official briefed on the discussions.
Qatar is in turn liaising with Hamas, the Palestinian militant group at war with Israel. The temporary halt in fighting would also be used to push Hamas to compile and hand over a list of all the more than 240 hostages it is holding, according to the official, and to enable more aid to be delivered to the strip.
“Talks have been progressing well towards a deal in the past few days,” the official said.
Discussions over a potential break in the fierce hostilities have swung between Hamas’s demands for a five-day pause, alongside fuel and aid deliveries in exchange for an unknown number of hostages, and Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu suggesting hours-long tactical pauses during hostage releases.
But the talks in Qatar are the most advanced so far. Barnea is on his second trip to the Gulf nation, which has played a major role in the Gaza Strip by providing financial support for civilians and public sector workers. Doha also hosts Hamas’s political office.
The talks were taking place as Israeli forces stepped up fighting near the centre of Gaza City and its military strengthened its hold over the north of the Gaza Strip. Tens of thousands of Palestinians fled south on Wednesday to escape the conflict.
Gazans reported fighting close to two major hospitals, al-Shifa — which Israel has called a site of Hamas operations and where it intends to take control — and al-Quds, and in the commercial district of Zeitoun.
Israeli military spokesperson Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari said Hamas, the militant group, had “lost its grip on the north”.
“The Hamas leadership is disconnected — they sit in the bunkers, disconnected from the public, disconnected from their . . . own fighters . . . and also disconnected abroad,” he added.
The fight for Gaza City is picking up pace as US secretary of state Antony Blinken has presented a vision for postwar Gaza that differs starkly from Israel’s and is significantly more detailed.
He has called for governance by the Hamas rival Palestinian Authority, a minimal presence of Israeli troops, an end to the 16-year blockade of the Palestinian enclave and “no reduction in the territory of Gaza”.
That would be possible only if neither Gaza nor the West Bank were used as bases for violent attacks on Israel, he said, after a meeting of G7 foreign ministers in Japan on Wednesday. Blinken again backed international calls for a two-state solution.
Netanyahu this week said Israel would have “overall security responsibility” in Gaza for an indefinite period. He has consistently sought to weaken the PA during his tenure as PM and declined to revive negotiations for a two-state solution.
The death toll in Gaza has risen to 10,800, roughly two-thirds of them women and children, say local health officials. European and Arab diplomats are meeting in Paris to discuss measures to contain a deepening humanitarian crisis, including suggestions for a maritime aid corridor from Cyprus to Gaza, and hospital ships. Israel will not attend.
At least 1,400 Israelis were killed in Hamas’s cross-border raid on October 7, including 314 soldiers, the government has said. At least 30 Israeli soldiers have died since the beginning of the country’s ground offensive on November 3.
Both the Israel Defense Forces and Hamas have declined to provide estimates of how many Hamas militants have been killed.
The IDF estimated that 50,000 Palestinians fled south on Wednesday, some waving white flags as they approached Israeli soldiers on a major evacuation route, Salah ad-Din Road.
Conditions in southern Gaza are dire, with UN and international agencies describing acute shortages of food, water and medical care for the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians forced to leave their homes.
UNRWA, the UN agency that provides aid to Palestinians, said it had managed to get a second shipment of “much-needed emergency medical supplies and medicines” to the al-Shifa hospital, the largest in the territory, which is in the heart of Gaza City.
Israel has indicated it intends to take control of the hospital site, which it describes as being infiltrated by Hamas militants and sitting atop an underground network of tunnels. Hamas denies the claims.
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Have people seen the videos from the Israeli attack choppers that responded to the rave on Oct 7?
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On November 10 2023 01:13 GreenHorizons wrote:
Have people seen the videos from the Israeli attack choppers that responded to the rave on Oct 7?
I have but the source was sus to me
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On November 10 2023 02:08 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2023 01:13 GreenHorizons wrote:
Have people seen the videos from the Israeli attack choppers that responded to the rave on Oct 7? I have but the source was sus to me
I guess what's in the video is from various places around Israel, but the video itself is from an Israeli news source with expected rationalizing for firing indiscriminately and killing unknown numbers of civilians/hostages/Israeli forces.
...the pilots realized that there was tremendous difficulty in distinguishing within the occupied outposts and settlements who was a terrorist and who was a soldier or civilian...
The rate of fire against the thousands of terrorists was tremendous at first, and only at a certain point did the pilots begin to slow down the attacks and carefully select the target
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On November 10 2023 03:13 JimmiC wrote:
Humour me here, If Isreal was to declare Hamas defeated, give the PLO control, agree to a two state solution and remove the settlements tomorrow. Would you consider them ethnic cleansers guilty of genocide?
I just can't understand how to you thought this deserved to be posted.
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That's a compilation video released by the IDF PR unit a month ago. Not sure why it's exploding today with "akshually Israel killed the ravers" text attached to it, the Twitter meta is a mystery to me.
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On November 10 2023 03:13 JimmiC wrote:
Humour me here, If Isreal was to declare Hamas defeated, give the PLO control, agree to a two state solution and remove the settlements tomorrow. Would you consider them ethnic cleansers guilty of genocide? Would the Holocaust not have been an ethnic cleansing if Germany gave all the survivors a billion dollars?
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EPT
