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On November 10 2023 08:55 BlackJack wrote:
There are a lot of people saying Israel is committing genocide. Only most people making that argument are young adults on social media or attending protests that probably couldn't find Israel on a map 2 months ago. They aren't here. Jimmi's problem is that he often craves to argue against the dumbest and weakest arguments, I'm guessing because they are the easiest to refute. Unfortunately by sheer virtue of this forum having people generally at average intelligence or above those stupid arguments don't really exist here. The only person that keeps bringing up genocide is Jimmi himself, I'm guessing trying to bait someone into adopting the position that Israel is committing genocide so he can heroically refute it. If all else fails he'll just insist people are arguing that Israel is committing genocide by slowly conflating it with ethnic cleansing and then moving on to flat out making things up.
I disagree that there is a very important distinction between ethnic cleansing and genocide. If we're going semantically the difference is that while ethnic cleansing and genocide may share the same goal and the acts which are used to perpetrate both crimes may often resemble each other, ethnic cleansing is intended to displace a persecuted population from a given territory, while genocide is intended to destroy a population.
I don't really believe that in the mind of someone who wants to destroy a group, they really care if the group is killed or moved away, it's more about what they can get away with and what they're able to do. But for the purpose of moving the conversation forward because I don't really care I'm willing to only use ethnic cleansing in the future as opposed to also using genocide.
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On November 10 2023 09:04 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2023 08:55 BlackJack wrote:
There are a lot of people saying Israel is committing genocide. Only most people making that argument are young adults on social media or attending protests that probably couldn't find Israel on a map 2 months ago. They aren't here. Jimmi's problem is that he often craves to argue against the dumbest and weakest arguments, I'm guessing because they are the easiest to refute. Unfortunately by sheer virtue of this forum having people generally at average intelligence or above those stupid arguments don't really exist here. The only person that keeps bringing up genocide is Jimmi himself, I'm guessing trying to bait someone into adopting the position that Israel is committing genocide so he can heroically refute it. If all else fails he'll just insist people are arguing that Israel is committing genocide by slowly conflating it with ethnic cleansing and then moving on to flat out making things up.
I disagree that there is a very important distinction between ethnic cleansing and genocide. If we're going semantically the difference is that while ethnic cleansing and genocide may share the same goal and the acts which are used to perpetrate both crimes may often resemble each other, ethnic cleansing is intended to displace a persecuted population from a given territory, while genocide is intended to destroy a population. I don't really believe that in the mind of someone who wants to destroy a group, they really care if the group is killed or moved away, it's more about what they can get away with and what they're able to do. But for the purpose of moving the conversation forward because I don't really care I'm willing to only use ethnic cleansing in the future as opposed to also using genocide.
I think the point is that this is a functional difference that affects outcomes and behaviour, so categorizing these things is actually helpful.
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Well this is horrible... now said hostages could be under piles of rubble and who knows where else.
Benjamin Netanyahu rejected a deal for a five-day ceasefire with Palestinian militant groups in Gaza in return for the release of some of the hostages held in the territory early in the war, according to sources familiar with the negotiations.
The sources said the Israeli prime minister rejected the deal outright in negotiations soon after Hamas militants staged an unprecedented incursion into Israeli territory on 7 October, killing an estimated 1,400 people.
Negotiations resumed after the launch of the Israeli ground offensive on 27 October, but the same sources said Netanyahu had continued to take a tough line on proposals involving ceasefires of different durations in exchange for a varying number of hostages.
Others indicated that negotiations which took place prior to the ground invasion involved a far larger number of hostages, with Hamas proposing the release of dozens of foreign nationals captive in Gaza.
The Israeli prime minister’s office was asked to comment on the hostage negotiations but had not given a response by Thursday evening.
An estimated 240 people were taken hostage after fighters from Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad and other groups based in Gaza, as well as civilians, crossed the reinforced border fence separating the territory from Israeli towns and kibbutzim.
Public anger and demands that Israel prioritise hostage negotiations have increased, with families of those held in Gaza rallying outside Netanyahu’s residence earlier this week.
According to three sources familiar with the talks, the original deal on the table involved freeing children, women and elderly and sick people in exchange for a five-day ceasefire, but the Israeli government turned this down and demonstrated its rejection with the launch of the ground offensive.
Israeli bombardments as well as a continuing ground invasion of the northern end of the Gaza Strip, home to 2.3 million people, have killed more than 10,300 people in the past month and injured in excess of 25,000, according to the Hamas-run health ministry. Abu Obeida, the spokesperson for Hamas’s militant wing, Izz ad-Din al-Qassam, has said that the group is unable to release more hostages amid the mounting attacks.
On Thursday the US national security council spokesperson John Kirby said Israel had agreed to daily four-hour “humanitarian pauses”, with the aim that the small breaks in bombardments could aid the passage of hostages out of Gaza. Kirby said Israel had also agreed to open a second corridor for civilians to flee Gaza City.
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On November 10 2023 07:57 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2023 07:27 Fleetfeet wrote:On November 10 2023 05:33 Magic Powers wrote:
@JimmiC
Ethnic cleansing or genocide exist on a scale, like many things do.
Kid in household A gets beaten with a stick, thrown down the stairs, chained to the bed, fed one meal per day, and is grounded six days per week.
Kid in household B gets called horrible names, gets yelled at, has to keep the whole house clean and tidy without any help, can see their friends only twice per week, and can't wear the clothes they want to.
Which one of the two kids is being abused? Jimmi seems to be arguing (and I generally agree) that ethnic cleansing and genocide exist on the same scale. A failed genocide becomes an ethnic cleansing at some point and vice versa. The fruit of that determination is another matter, but where you could describe yelling at a kid as "kind of abusive", you can't really name a situation that's "kind of genocide". With the abuse example I was hoping to demonstrate that worse abuse doesn't make lesser abuse no longer abusive. It amounts to saying "there are worse things than X that sound similar to X but that aren't X, therefore X is not as bad of a thing as you say it is", which is not a valid argument. A lesser form of abuse is not any less abusive than it is just because worse forms of abuse also exist. So just because Israel isn't engaging in the eradication of Palestinians doesn't mean that they're not engaging in the displacement of Palestinians. And if they are displacing them - and I'd say the evidence is quite overwhelming - then that makes it ethnic cleansing. The existence of the concept of genocide as the ultimate form of ethnic cleansing is not a valid counter argument.
Valid! I suppose I misunderstood Jimmi as arguing that it's ethnic cleansing and not genocide. I missed the original context (and will go back and read it before responding further!)
(-e- reading back taught me I know nothing. Carry on!)
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On November 10 2023 08:55 BlackJack wrote:
There are a lot of people saying Israel is committing genocide. Only most people making that argument are young adults on social media or attending protests that probably couldn't find Israel on a map 2 months ago. They aren't here. Jimmi's problem is that he often craves to argue against the dumbest and weakest arguments, I'm guessing because they are the easiest to refute. Unfortunately by sheer virtue of this forum having people generally at average intelligence or above those stupid arguments don't really exist here. The only person that keeps bringing up genocide is Jimmi himself, I'm guessing trying to bait someone into adopting the position that Israel is committing genocide so he can heroically refute it. If all else fails he'll just insist people are arguing that Israel is committing genocide by slowly conflating it with ethnic cleansing and then moving on to flat out making things up.
There were multiple people calling it a genocide. I'll see if I can look up some quotes.
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On November 10 2023 09:35 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2023 08:39 Dan HH wrote:On November 10 2023 04:45 JimmiC wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 10 2023 03:52 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2023 03:36 JimmiC wrote:On November 10 2023 03:33 Gorsameth wrote:On November 10 2023 03:30 JimmiC wrote:On November 10 2023 03:29 Gorsameth wrote:On November 10 2023 03:13 JimmiC wrote:
Humour me here, If Isreal was to declare Hamas defeated, give the PLO control, agree to a two state solution and remove the settlements tomorrow. Would you consider them ethnic cleansers guilty of genocide? Would the Holocaust not have been an ethnic cleansing if Germany gave all the survivors a billion dollars? It still would be, super easy question. great, so you answered your own question then. super easy. No I did not. I answered your question which was different than mine. As many people pointed out the holocaust is very different than what has so far transpired in Isreal. I get at this point that facts and reality is hard for you so it’s easier to just be mad and a jerk. His point is that you can't unstab someone. Evacuating the settlements in the West Bank would be great but it would have no bearing on whether the seizure of the land was ethnic cleansing or not. I agree with you, the not at all hidden part of the question is, is what they have actually done ethnic cleansing, or is what I’m really really sure they are going to do is ethnic cleansing and genocide. You see this on the answers to legitimate questions like when it was asked why the IDF was bombing apartment complexes but also letting people know to get out of it. The answers were basically “because they’re monsters” and not because they are destroying the tunnel system which Hamas has hidden in apartment complex’s. If we look at the two ongoing wars we have Ukraine who puts their military away from schools, civilians, hospitals, daycares so it is obvious when Russia hits a day care they were doing it to create terror and they are intentionally targeting civilians. They are openly committing war crimes and so on. What is stopping them from committing war crimes is that they do not have enough military might to carry it out. What stopped Hitler was military might. Israel is different they have the military might to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians. They could have likely done it since the 6 day war. They have not put gold stars on the Palestinians living in Isreal and they have chosen not to kill all of them in Gaza and the west bank. They even gave back the Sinai Peninsula which actually had oil and dismantled most of their settlements. Other posters have gone into a lot more detail of many of the reasons of why this is very different than the holocaust. Does this mean Israel has done no wrong? Of course not. Does this mean this current attack is justified? I do not believe it is , the ends do not justify the means and I do not even think the ends are close to a net positive. A big part of what differentiates genocide and ethnic cleansing from other war crimes or crimes against humanity, is intent. Intent is always hard to judge because we really do not know and you have to do your best to judge on actions. And I keep coming back to, if their intent was to destruction of a people, what’s stopping them. No one here has remotely answered this question and very few have been willing to have a good faith discussion. Instead they like to insult me and claim falsely no matter how many times I say it, that I’m pro what Israel has done. I do not believe there is degrees with genocide and ethnic cleansing. Whether is Cambodia or the holocaust, or Bangladesh, Rwanda or so on there is no question, no doubt, they killed every single member of the group they had the power to do so. This is awful, I’ve specifically said what war crime I believe Israel has been guilty of, I hope Bibi rots in a jail cell. But that does not mark it genocide, genocide is different and I believe it is important to know the differences. Especially given our global history of genocide against people of Jewish ethnicity, from basically everywhere and from all political sides. I can't speak of the current displacement in Gaza since we have no way of knowing how things will look like by the end of the war, right now one could just as easily argue that it's done to protect civilians or that it's done to push them out and keep them out. But as far as East Jerusalem and the West Bank are concerned it's not difficult to gauge intent. If you read the mission statement of any settler organization, their stated goal is to get as many houses and plots in those areas that are currently not owned by Jews to become owned by Jews. The Israeli government strongly and openly supported these organizations until the '00s, it has been somewhat more covert in recent years, but it's clear that they can't do what they do without being assisted by security forces and the justice system. Let me put it this way, I don't think Israel has done ethnic cleansing for the sake of ethnic cleansing or homogeneity, I think they've done ethnic cleansing because they want to have a strong claim on as much of East Jerusalem and the West Bank as possible when the time comes to formalize borders. Even if the point is moreso to get Jews in rather than to get Palestinians out, the result is a concerted effort to engineer the ethnic makeup of certain areas. On November 10 2023 07:13 JimmiC wrote:On November 10 2023 07:10 Magic Powers wrote:On November 10 2023 06:04 JimmiC wrote:On November 10 2023 05:33 Magic Powers wrote:
@JimmiC
Ethnic cleansing or genocide exist on a scale, like many things do.
Kid in household A gets beaten with a stick, thrown down the stairs, chained to the bed, fed one meal per day, and is grounded six days per week.
Kid in household B gets called horrible names, gets yelled at, has to keep the whole house clean and tidy without any help, can see their friends only twice per week, and can't wear the clothes they want to.
Which one of the two kids is being abused? Ethnic cleansing is not abuse, there definitions are very different, one is broad for a reason and one is specific for a reason. You can be charged with (a) Genocide; (b) Conspiracy to commit genocide; (c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide; (d) Attempt to commit genocide; (e) Complicity in genocide. But there is not 1st degree, 2nd 3rd, man slaughter and so on for good reason. Now will you answer mine and see where the rabbit hole takes us? Again, ethnic cleansing doesn't necessitate genocide. Both words have been used interchangeably are you in a new camp that Israel has committed ethnic cleansing but not genocide? Care to elaborate? It's not a new camp, most people in this thread seem to be in it. The terms are quite literal, attempting to "cleanse [land] of an ethnicity" vs attempting to "kill a people". With the note that you can also kill a people by erasing their identity rather than only by killing its members (though this is more relevant for the other ongoing war). Firstly thanks for taking the time to respond to actually what I’m writing instead of the cheap gotcha attempt or the pointless vitriol below your post (that if I wrote I would certainly be banned for, that being said there is plenty of posts directed at me that if I wrote I would be banned for so that’s really not new) I do not believe there is no one in Isreal that is not for ethic cleansing. What percentage that is Im not sure. There is 7ish perfect ultra orthodox that would be a good place to start and then there might be a significant part of the 8ish percent that are orthodox that would be on board. I would guess it’s fairly safe to say the 20ish percent Palestinians/Muslims would be against it. I would guess that a very significant part of the 1/3 that are secular would be against it and likely a large part of the 20ish percent of moderates that are against it. I’m not sure how Oct 7 changed public will but I’m certain not in the direction I would prefer. It is scary as Bibi moves right to avoid his own incarceration that at some point I won’t be able to make this argument as Israel is at risk of not being a democracy. Now if someone said this group in Israel is actively promoting ethnic cleansing and they were the Israeli group equivalent of the kluklux clan or Hamas I wouldn’t argue. But I find it strange that if someone was to call Palestine out for being genocidal maniacs there would be push back, because they are not Hamas is. But no such push back exists the other direction here. I also think there are examples of genocide where very few are killed the Crimean Tatar come to mind a less well known example would be the residential schools in Canada where aboriginals were pulled from their homes to basically have their culture taught out of them (not to mention mass amounts of abuse and death as well.) I would guess if there was more people than I thought that had MPs definition of ethnic cleansing vs genocide and were not accusing Isreal of both we could probably find a middle ground we could agree on. I tried to write ethnic cleansing/genocide to indicate I was talking about both but I doubt I did it every time. No one pre MP made the differention between the two, there could be more. @MP I think if you want a criminal example I would say Hate crime vs murder. Jeffery Daumer was a horrible serial killer but did not commit hate crimes. @fleetfleet thanks as well. Yes scale is certainly a part of it along with organization but intent is the biggest one. Pretty scattered post but it’s the best it’s coming out at this time. Hope it provides some clarification.
First off, when people say Israel, they generally mean Israel, the state, not Israeli people, nor Jews, but the state itself. There is no equivalent Palestinean state, so people cannot say Palestina supports ethnic cleansing as there is no such institution. The closest would be the PA who do not support ethnic cleansing, but moreover don't have the power to do anything about it if they did. A 12-year old threatening to nuke your house is not the same as the president of the USA threatening to nuke your house, because only one of those two can follow up on that threat.
Second, you don't need country-wide popular support for ethnic cleansing. You need local support where the ethnic cleansing is happening and the government to either support or turn a blind eye to it. It doesn't matter that secular liberals in Tel Aviv are not supportive of settlements in the West Bank if they don't do anything about it. And the Israeli government has definitely been supportive of settlers, both tacitly by not forbidding it and openly by sending in the army to "defend" the settlers from aggression.
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Northern Ireland24999 Posts
On November 10 2023 09:42 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2023 09:38 RvB wrote:On November 10 2023 08:55 BlackJack wrote:
There are a lot of people saying Israel is committing genocide. Only most people making that argument are young adults on social media or attending protests that probably couldn't find Israel on a map 2 months ago. They aren't here. Jimmi's problem is that he often craves to argue against the dumbest and weakest arguments, I'm guessing because they are the easiest to refute. Unfortunately by sheer virtue of this forum having people generally at average intelligence or above those stupid arguments don't really exist here. The only person that keeps bringing up genocide is Jimmi himself, I'm guessing trying to bait someone into adopting the position that Israel is committing genocide so he can heroically refute it. If all else fails he'll just insist people are arguing that Israel is committing genocide by slowly conflating it with ethnic cleansing and then moving on to flat out making things up.
There were multiple people calling it a genocide. You can just type genocide into search at see the many many posts using it and then look at the ones after discussing it. Not to mention it’s been the main discussion point for days. You do not need to find him quotes there is no way he believes this. This is just him using his extreme ignorance / the BJ classic of moving the goal posts and complete freedom to be an asshole to try to bait me into responding so I can get banned and he can move on to internet fighting with his next person. And in true BJ fashion while he complains about dog piles on him and claims victimhood the instant he can pile on he jumps on it and does not even bother to even pretend to add to the discussion.
Oddly enough nobody else is accusing BJ of this, and at times in the past people have. As they have me given I’m an idiot
People are criticising you for dancing around definitions and rank inconsistency in expressed views, get over it. Nothing to do with BlackJack whatsoever.
You want to simultaneously moan about China’s treatment of Uighurs and hand wave extremely similar behaviour by the Israeli state and yet somehow be seen as some centrist, logical voice of reason.
It’s fucking nonsense, people have called it as nonsense and well, tough, deal with it.
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But I find it strange that if someone was to call Palestine out for being genocidal maniacs there would be push back, because they are not Hamas is. But no such push back exists the other direction here.
This is ridiculous. You can't equate Hamas to 'Palestine' because first of all, there is no 'Palestine', not according to Israel or their Western Allies, at any rate. Hamas is Hamas, and they're dogshit in their methods and ideology, literally every single poster here agrees with that. But more importantly, they do not represent entirety of the Palestinian peoples, or the territories those peoples inhabit. Unlike Hamas, Israel's leadership and armed forces are, in fact, representatives of the entire state of Israel and the peoples living there, and their actions reflect on Israel as a whole. You could say that Hamas is a representative for the Gaza strip, and while I personally don't think that's a 100% fair assessment considering the circumstances, it would be at least somewhat based in reality, but surely there is more to Palestine than the Gaza strip.
Also, it's rather weird that you're now calling Hamas 'genocidal' while simultaneously decrying incorrect use of the word 'genocide' in relation to Israel's action. That's like calling Iran or North Korea genocidal nations because they have dudes chanting 'death to America.'
Hamas are murderous terrorists, but their calls to exterminate all jews are a rallying cry, not a realistic agenda. Surely if you're such a stickler for definitions, you should be able to recognize that Israel is in no real danger of being actually genocided.
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On November 10 2023 09:04 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2023 08:55 BlackJack wrote:
There are a lot of people saying Israel is committing genocide. Only most people making that argument are young adults on social media or attending protests that probably couldn't find Israel on a map 2 months ago. They aren't here. Jimmi's problem is that he often craves to argue against the dumbest and weakest arguments, I'm guessing because they are the easiest to refute. Unfortunately by sheer virtue of this forum having people generally at average intelligence or above those stupid arguments don't really exist here. The only person that keeps bringing up genocide is Jimmi himself, I'm guessing trying to bait someone into adopting the position that Israel is committing genocide so he can heroically refute it. If all else fails he'll just insist people are arguing that Israel is committing genocide by slowly conflating it with ethnic cleansing and then moving on to flat out making things up.
I disagree that there is a very important distinction between ethnic cleansing and genocide. If we're going semantically the difference is that while ethnic cleansing and genocide may share the same goal and the acts which are used to perpetrate both crimes may often resemble each other, ethnic cleansing is intended to displace a persecuted population from a given territory, while genocide is intended to destroy a population. I don't really believe that in the mind of someone who wants to destroy a group, they really care if the group is killed or moved away, it's more about what they can get away with and what they're able to do. But for the purpose of moving the conversation forward because I don't really care I'm willing to only use ethnic cleansing in the future as opposed to also using genocide.
I think being displaced vs being exterminated is a worthwhile enough difference to have separate terms. I'd say the way to look at it is: all genocide is ethnic cleansing while not all ethnic cleansing is genocide
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Northern Ireland24999 Posts
On November 10 2023 10:17 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2023 09:04 Nebuchad wrote:On November 10 2023 08:55 BlackJack wrote:
There are a lot of people saying Israel is committing genocide. Only most people making that argument are young adults on social media or attending protests that probably couldn't find Israel on a map 2 months ago. They aren't here. Jimmi's problem is that he often craves to argue against the dumbest and weakest arguments, I'm guessing because they are the easiest to refute. Unfortunately by sheer virtue of this forum having people generally at average intelligence or above those stupid arguments don't really exist here. The only person that keeps bringing up genocide is Jimmi himself, I'm guessing trying to bait someone into adopting the position that Israel is committing genocide so he can heroically refute it. If all else fails he'll just insist people are arguing that Israel is committing genocide by slowly conflating it with ethnic cleansing and then moving on to flat out making things up.
I disagree that there is a very important distinction between ethnic cleansing and genocide. If we're going semantically the difference is that while ethnic cleansing and genocide may share the same goal and the acts which are used to perpetrate both crimes may often resemble each other, ethnic cleansing is intended to displace a persecuted population from a given territory, while genocide is intended to destroy a population. I don't really believe that in the mind of someone who wants to destroy a group, they really care if the group is killed or moved away, it's more about what they can get away with and what they're able to do. But for the purpose of moving the conversation forward because I don't really care I'm willing to only use ethnic cleansing in the future as opposed to also using genocide. I think being displaced vs being exterminated is a worthwhile enough difference to have separate terms. I'd say the way to look at it is: all genocide is ethnic cleansing while not all ethnic cleansing is genocide
Seems fair to me. A concerted effort to erase the culture of an ethnic group, their language etc can be a form of ethnic cleansing even if a single person isn’t actively killed to do it.
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Northern Ireland24999 Posts
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Only one that's problematic is 5th one by me, the rest are totally fine.
I had a worse one than this btw, you missed it 
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On November 10 2023 10:17 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +But I find it strange that if someone was to call Palestine out for being genocidal maniacs there would be push back, because they are not Hamas is. But no such push back exists the other direction here. This is ridiculous. You can't equate Hamas to 'Palestine' because first of all, there is no 'Palestine', not according to Israel or their Western Allies, at any rate. Hamas is Hamas, and they're dogshit in their methods and ideology, literally every single poster here agrees with that. But more importantly, they do not represent entirety of the Palestinian peoples, or the territories those peoples inhabit. Unlike Hamas, Israel's leadership and armed forces are, in fact, representatives of the entire state of Israel and the peoples living there, and their actions reflect on Israel as a whole. You could say that Hamas is a representative for the Gaza strip, and while I personally don't think that's a 100% fair assessment considering the circumstances, it would be at least somewhat based in reality, but surely there is more to Palestine than the Gaza strip. Also, it's rather weird that you're now calling Hamas 'genocidal' while simultaneously decrying incorrect use of the word 'genocide' in relation to Israel's action. That's like calling Iran or North Korea genocidal nations because they have dudes chanting 'death to America.' Hamas are murderous terrorists, but their calls to exterminate all jews are a rallying cry, not a realistic agenda. Surely if you're such a stickler for definitions, you should be able to recognize that Israel is in no real danger of being actually genocided.
Hamas calls to exterminate Jews isn't just a rallying cry. They cannot act on it but the intent is there as we've seen on 7/10.
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On November 10 2023 10:36 Nebuchad wrote:Only one that's problematic is 5th one by me, the rest are totally fine. I had a worse one than this btw, you missed it
I know you have worse. I just took one to prove the point. It's not my job.
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EPT
