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On November 01 2023 00:06 Mohdoo wrote:
The propositional whatever argument is so dumb. That would mean Hamas can just decide to trade with 1000 lives every so often because they are barbarians who openly admit they love the idea of sacrificing themselves for killing Jews. They have endorsed the idea and want it to happen frequently.
And now, under your system of no proportionality, they can't do that. Because... why?
Edit: but to be fair I agree with you that the proportionality argument is a bit cringe, because the correct amount of Gaza civilians that should die in response to 1000 Israeli civilians dying is 0, not 1000.
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On November 01 2023 00:06 Mohdoo wrote:
The propositional whatever argument is so dumb. That would mean Hamas can just decide to trade with 1000 lives every so often because they are barbarians who openly admit they love the idea of sacrificing themselves for killing Jews. They have endorsed the idea and want it to happen frequently.
I feel like you guys are essentially not even viewing Hamas as Gazans as people with agency. Is it that you guys see it as their religion or culture or whatever prevents them from behaving rationally, so it’s ok for this trade of lives to be something they encourage and make happen every so often?
I disagree with the notion that any more than a miniscule minority of Palestinians want to trade their lives away I'm not sure what you're referring to regarding rational behavior or what prevents it. Can you elaborate on your point here?
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On November 01 2023 00:17 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Most people on gaza do not want to sacrifice their lives to kill jews, wtf.
Hamas does. Not saying all Palestinians do, but Hamas intends to keep on making this trade and they have said so themselves repeatedly since October 7.
So Israel should just make sure they only kill that same members of Hamas every time Hamas decides to run around killing 1000 people? Gotta make sure that response is proportional, while also leaving open the possibility of the cycle repeating forever? That’s why I’m saying the “proportional!!!” Argument is entirely bad faith. It makes zero sense and is yet another example of people gladly lunging towards “solutions” that allow the situation to continue.
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On November 01 2023 00:32 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2023 00:17 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Most people on gaza do not want to sacrifice their lives to kill jews, wtf. Hamas does. Not saying all Palestinians do, but Hamas intends to keep on making this trade and they have said so themselves repeatedly since October 7. So Israel should just make sure they only kill that same members of Hamas every time Hamas decides to run around killing 1000 people? Gotta make sure that response is proportional, while also leaving open the possibility of the cycle repeating forever? That’s why I’m saying the “proportional!!!” Argument is entirely bad faith. It makes zero sense and is yet another example of people gladly lunging towards “solutions” that allow the situation to continue.
I'm not sure where you expect the current Israeli method to go other than the total genocide of the Palestinian people. But hey, who gives af about 2 million civies if we get 100 terrorists.
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On November 01 2023 00:22 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2023 00:06 Mohdoo wrote:
The propositional whatever argument is so dumb. That would mean Hamas can just decide to trade with 1000 lives every so often because they are barbarians who openly admit they love the idea of sacrificing themselves for killing Jews. They have endorsed the idea and want it to happen frequently. And now, under your system of no proportionality, they can't do that. Because... why? Edit: but to be fair I agree with you that the proportionality argument is a bit cringe, because the correct amount of Gaza civilians that should die in response to 1000 Israeli civilians dying is 0, not 1000.
lol so when do we say it’s Hamas and when does it suddenly become Palestinians again?
Who is the government is Gaza? This is just the same bad faith definition swapping mod conversation. Hamas launched the attack, but when Israel attacks, suddenly everyone is Palestinian and not Hamas.
This circular reasoning just ends up back at “how about hamas continues to rule over Gaza and launch attacks every so often?”.
I will go out of my way to just pretend this is unintentional and I am misunderstanding you. Is there a way for Israel to eliminate Hamas without harming “Palestinian civilians”? Is it that Israel is choosing a worse way to kill Hamas members and they ought to do it differently? Or is this just your subtle way of saying Israel should not eliminate Hamas?
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United States43868 Posts
A lot of the resistance to being moved isn’t out of a desire to kill Jews or be used as human shields or to make the IDF look bad by forcing them to kill kids, it’s because there’s a very reasonable fear that once moved off of land they will never be allowed back. That the prison walls are closing in.
If Israel wished to create a DMZ around Gaza it could do so by mandatory evacuation of its own settlements near Gaza, creating a buffer on their side of the border. After all, it’s all already land they seized from the Palestinians, what difference would it make. By making a DMZ in Gaza with mandatory displacement of the people living there they are de facto seizing yet more land.
And even if they genuinely believe that this time is different and that they’re not doing it to displace Palestinians, to the people of Gaza it looks the exact same. None of them live on the land their great grandparents had, they were pushed from there by Israel. They might reasonably believe that if they move with their children today they are robbing their children of any future claim to the land they were born on, just as they were robbed.
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On November 01 2023 00:34 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2023 00:32 Mohdoo wrote:On November 01 2023 00:17 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Most people on gaza do not want to sacrifice their lives to kill jews, wtf. Hamas does. Not saying all Palestinians do, but Hamas intends to keep on making this trade and they have said so themselves repeatedly since October 7. So Israel should just make sure they only kill that same members of Hamas every time Hamas decides to run around killing 1000 people? Gotta make sure that response is proportional, while also leaving open the possibility of the cycle repeating forever? That’s why I’m saying the “proportional!!!” Argument is entirely bad faith. It makes zero sense and is yet another example of people gladly lunging towards “solutions” that allow the situation to continue. I'm not sure where you expect the current Israeli method to go other than the total genocide of the Palestinian people. But hey, who gives af about 2 million civies if we get 100 terrorists.
In all other war scenarios, the losing side runs away and they become refugees in other countries. But as I’ve posted here a million times, neighboring Muslim countries encourage this fight and specifically say Palestinians are fighting on behalf of Arabs. They view Palestinians as a means to an end and confine them to their battle ring by closing their borders. Neighboring Muslim countries work to ensure this conflict continues and Hamas is on board because they love the idea of sacrificing themselves to kill Jews.
It’s also dumb to pretend you think Israel would start gunning down 100k people and Egypt and Jordan would just give a thumbs up and do nothing. Egypt, Jordan, and other nations would never let Israel do that. At the bare minimum, they would open their borders rather than their current protocol of “wait no, I need you all to go keep fighting”. I don’t think you actually think these things. This feels like just trying to advocate for a position rather than you giving your impression of how events would unfold. You don’t actually imagine Israel killing 1 million people while everyone sits idly drooling
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On November 01 2023 00:37 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2023 00:22 Nebuchad wrote:On November 01 2023 00:06 Mohdoo wrote:
The propositional whatever argument is so dumb. That would mean Hamas can just decide to trade with 1000 lives every so often because they are barbarians who openly admit they love the idea of sacrificing themselves for killing Jews. They have endorsed the idea and want it to happen frequently. And now, under your system of no proportionality, they can't do that. Because... why? Edit: but to be fair I agree with you that the proportionality argument is a bit cringe, because the correct amount of Gaza civilians that should die in response to 1000 Israeli civilians dying is 0, not 1000. lol so when do we say it’s Hamas and when does it suddenly become Palestinians again? Who is the government is Gaza? This is just the same bad faith definition swapping mod conversation. Hamas launched the attack, but when Israel attacks, suddenly everyone is Palestinian and not Hamas. This circular reasoning just ends up back at “how about hamas continues to rule over Gaza and launch attacks every so often?”. I will go out of my way to just pretend this is unintentional and I am misunderstanding you. Is there a way for Israel to eliminate Hamas without harming “Palestinian civilians”? Is it that Israel is choosing a worse way to kill Hamas members and they ought to do it differently? Or is this just your subtle way of saying Israel should not eliminate Hamas?
There isn't a special combination of words that you're going to find where you'll get me to agree with you that it's okay to bomb the civilians of a group that you've been trying to ethnically cleanse for years.
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On November 01 2023 00:46 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2023 00:37 Mohdoo wrote:On November 01 2023 00:22 Nebuchad wrote:On November 01 2023 00:06 Mohdoo wrote:
The propositional whatever argument is so dumb. That would mean Hamas can just decide to trade with 1000 lives every so often because they are barbarians who openly admit they love the idea of sacrificing themselves for killing Jews. They have endorsed the idea and want it to happen frequently. And now, under your system of no proportionality, they can't do that. Because... why? Edit: but to be fair I agree with you that the proportionality argument is a bit cringe, because the correct amount of Gaza civilians that should die in response to 1000 Israeli civilians dying is 0, not 1000. lol so when do we say it’s Hamas and when does it suddenly become Palestinians again? Who is the government is Gaza? This is just the same bad faith definition swapping mod conversation. Hamas launched the attack, but when Israel attacks, suddenly everyone is Palestinian and not Hamas. This circular reasoning just ends up back at “how about hamas continues to rule over Gaza and launch attacks every so often?”. I will go out of my way to just pretend this is unintentional and I am misunderstanding you. Is there a way for Israel to eliminate Hamas without harming “Palestinian civilians”? Is it that Israel is choosing a worse way to kill Hamas members and they ought to do it differently? Or is this just your subtle way of saying Israel should not eliminate Hamas? There isn't a special combination of words that you're going to find where you'll get me to agree with you that it's okay to bomb the civilians of a group that you've been trying to ethnically cleanse for years. I would hope this type of argument would have no place here at this point. That it still does is thoroughly disappointing and equally unsurprising.
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On November 01 2023 00:42 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2023 00:34 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 01 2023 00:32 Mohdoo wrote:On November 01 2023 00:17 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Most people on gaza do not want to sacrifice their lives to kill jews, wtf. Hamas does. Not saying all Palestinians do, but Hamas intends to keep on making this trade and they have said so themselves repeatedly since October 7. So Israel should just make sure they only kill that same members of Hamas every time Hamas decides to run around killing 1000 people? Gotta make sure that response is proportional, while also leaving open the possibility of the cycle repeating forever? That’s why I’m saying the “proportional!!!” Argument is entirely bad faith. It makes zero sense and is yet another example of people gladly lunging towards “solutions” that allow the situation to continue. I'm not sure where you expect the current Israeli method to go other than the total genocide of the Palestinian people. But hey, who gives af about 2 million civies if we get 100 terrorists. In all other war scenarios, the losing side runs away and they become refugees in other countries. But as I’ve posted here a million times, neighboring Muslim countries encourage this fight and specifically say Palestinians are fighting on behalf of Arabs. They view Palestinians as a means to an end and confine them to their battle ring by closing their borders. Neighboring Muslim countries work to ensure this conflict continues and Hamas is on board because they love the idea of sacrificing themselves to kill Jews. It’s also dumb to pretend you think Israel would start gunning down 100k people and Egypt and Jordan would just give a thumbs up and do nothing. Egypt, Jordan, and other nations would never let Israel do that. At the bare minimum, they would open their borders rather than their current protocol of “wait no, I need you all to go keep fighting”. I don’t think you actually think these things. This feels like just trying to advocate for a position rather than you giving your impression of how events would unfold. You don’t actually imagine Israel killing 1 million people while everyone sits idly drooling
6000 civilians have been murdered in a fortnight, while the majority of this thread sits and pretends like it's fine. What the actual fuck are you talking about. No, of course Israel isn't going to huddle a million people into a firing style execution but to pretend they havent consistenly killed civies, bombed infrastructure and grabbed more and more land over the years is ignorant.
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On November 01 2023 01:01 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2023 00:42 Mohdoo wrote:On November 01 2023 00:34 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 01 2023 00:32 Mohdoo wrote:On November 01 2023 00:17 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Most people on gaza do not want to sacrifice their lives to kill jews, wtf. Hamas does. Not saying all Palestinians do, but Hamas intends to keep on making this trade and they have said so themselves repeatedly since October 7. So Israel should just make sure they only kill that same members of Hamas every time Hamas decides to run around killing 1000 people? Gotta make sure that response is proportional, while also leaving open the possibility of the cycle repeating forever? That’s why I’m saying the “proportional!!!” Argument is entirely bad faith. It makes zero sense and is yet another example of people gladly lunging towards “solutions” that allow the situation to continue. I'm not sure where you expect the current Israeli method to go other than the total genocide of the Palestinian people. But hey, who gives af about 2 million civies if we get 100 terrorists. In all other war scenarios, the losing side runs away and they become refugees in other countries. But as I’ve posted here a million times, neighboring Muslim countries encourage this fight and specifically say Palestinians are fighting on behalf of Arabs. They view Palestinians as a means to an end and confine them to their battle ring by closing their borders. Neighboring Muslim countries work to ensure this conflict continues and Hamas is on board because they love the idea of sacrificing themselves to kill Jews. It’s also dumb to pretend you think Israel would start gunning down 100k people and Egypt and Jordan would just give a thumbs up and do nothing. Egypt, Jordan, and other nations would never let Israel do that. At the bare minimum, they would open their borders rather than their current protocol of “wait no, I need you all to go keep fighting”. I don’t think you actually think these things. This feels like just trying to advocate for a position rather than you giving your impression of how events would unfold. You don’t actually imagine Israel killing 1 million people while everyone sits idly drooling 6000 civilians have been murdered in a fortnight, while the majority of this thread sits and pretends like it's fine. What the actual fuck are you talking about. No, of course Israel isn't going to huddle a million people into a firing style execution but to pretend they havent consistenly killed civies, bombed infrastructure and grabbed more and more land over the years is ignorant.
6000 coming from the same folks who said 500 and a flattened hospital? Yeah I bet. It’s all nonsense. You’re quoting a terrorist organization when the hospital is still there. When do we trust Hamas and when do we not? In your eyes, when are they reputable and trustworthy?
You started with 2 million civilians, now it’s how many? And you’re saying Hamas is only 100 people? It’s unclear what you think the actual situation is because you just fling a bunch of hyperbole while cuddling a sense of moral high ground.
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On November 01 2023 01:07 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2023 01:01 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 01 2023 00:42 Mohdoo wrote:On November 01 2023 00:34 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 01 2023 00:32 Mohdoo wrote:On November 01 2023 00:17 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Most people on gaza do not want to sacrifice their lives to kill jews, wtf. Hamas does. Not saying all Palestinians do, but Hamas intends to keep on making this trade and they have said so themselves repeatedly since October 7. So Israel should just make sure they only kill that same members of Hamas every time Hamas decides to run around killing 1000 people? Gotta make sure that response is proportional, while also leaving open the possibility of the cycle repeating forever? That’s why I’m saying the “proportional!!!” Argument is entirely bad faith. It makes zero sense and is yet another example of people gladly lunging towards “solutions” that allow the situation to continue. I'm not sure where you expect the current Israeli method to go other than the total genocide of the Palestinian people. But hey, who gives af about 2 million civies if we get 100 terrorists. In all other war scenarios, the losing side runs away and they become refugees in other countries. But as I’ve posted here a million times, neighboring Muslim countries encourage this fight and specifically say Palestinians are fighting on behalf of Arabs. They view Palestinians as a means to an end and confine them to their battle ring by closing their borders. Neighboring Muslim countries work to ensure this conflict continues and Hamas is on board because they love the idea of sacrificing themselves to kill Jews. It’s also dumb to pretend you think Israel would start gunning down 100k people and Egypt and Jordan would just give a thumbs up and do nothing. Egypt, Jordan, and other nations would never let Israel do that. At the bare minimum, they would open their borders rather than their current protocol of “wait no, I need you all to go keep fighting”. I don’t think you actually think these things. This feels like just trying to advocate for a position rather than you giving your impression of how events would unfold. You don’t actually imagine Israel killing 1 million people while everyone sits idly drooling 6000 civilians have been murdered in a fortnight, while the majority of this thread sits and pretends like it's fine. What the actual fuck are you talking about. No, of course Israel isn't going to huddle a million people into a firing style execution but to pretend they havent consistenly killed civies, bombed infrastructure and grabbed more and more land over the years is ignorant. 6000 coming from the same folks who said 500 and a flattened hospital? Yeah I bet. It’s all nonsense. You’re quoting a terrorist organization when the hospital is still there. When do we trust Hamas and when do we not? In your eyes, when are they reputable and trustworthy? You started with 2 million civilians, now it’s how many? And you’re saying Hamas is only 100 people? It’s unclear what you think the actual situation is because you just fling a bunch of hyperbole while cuddling a sense of moral high ground.
They released the civilian registry detailing every single person that's been killed. Literally what more do you want?
I love it when the mask comes off like this. You fucking disgust me.
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On November 01 2023 01:08 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2023 00:17 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Most people on gaza do not want to sacrifice their lives to kill jews, wtf. And most Israelis don't want to genocide the Palestinians.
They have a funny way of letting a vocal minority say their piece then. If we can blame Palestinians for Hamas, why does Israeli leadership get a pass when they tell us they're fighting Human Animals, blame Palestinian children for their plight, saying a Palestinian baby is not equal to an Israeli baby. This is such a joke.
I think the Israeli people are victims of brutal radicalization, but I'm guessing I'm going to get laughed at for equating like for like.
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On November 01 2023 01:16 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2023 01:08 JimmiC wrote:On November 01 2023 00:17 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Most people on gaza do not want to sacrifice their lives to kill jews, wtf. And most Israelis don't want to genocide the Palestinians. They have a funny way of letting a vocal minority say their piece then. If we can blame Palestinians for Hamas, why does Israeli leadership get a pass when they tell us they're fighting Human Animals, blame Palestinian children for their plight, saying a Palestinian baby is not equal to an Israeli baby. This is such a joke. I think the Israeli people are victims of brutal radicalization, but I'm guessing I'm going to get laughed at for equating like for like.
Israeli leadership doesn't get a pass but Israeli people do. Be ruthless to systems, be kind to people.
I agree with your second point.
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On November 01 2023 01:21 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2023 01:16 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 01 2023 01:08 JimmiC wrote:On November 01 2023 00:17 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Most people on gaza do not want to sacrifice their lives to kill jews, wtf. And most Israelis don't want to genocide the Palestinians. They have a funny way of letting a vocal minority say their piece then. If we can blame Palestinians for Hamas, why does Israeli leadership get a pass when they tell us they're fighting Human Animals, blame Palestinian children for their plight, saying a Palestinian baby is not equal to an Israeli baby. This is such a joke. I think the Israeli people are victims of brutal radicalization, but I'm guessing I'm going to get laughed at for equating like for like. I did not say any of that, that is all in your head.
You didn't, Israeli leadership did.
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On November 01 2023 00:46 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2023 00:37 Mohdoo wrote:On November 01 2023 00:22 Nebuchad wrote:On November 01 2023 00:06 Mohdoo wrote:
The propositional whatever argument is so dumb. That would mean Hamas can just decide to trade with 1000 lives every so often because they are barbarians who openly admit they love the idea of sacrificing themselves for killing Jews. They have endorsed the idea and want it to happen frequently. And now, under your system of no proportionality, they can't do that. Because... why? Edit: but to be fair I agree with you that the proportionality argument is a bit cringe, because the correct amount of Gaza civilians that should die in response to 1000 Israeli civilians dying is 0, not 1000. lol so when do we say it’s Hamas and when does it suddenly become Palestinians again? Who is the government is Gaza? This is just the same bad faith definition swapping mod conversation. Hamas launched the attack, but when Israel attacks, suddenly everyone is Palestinian and not Hamas. This circular reasoning just ends up back at “how about hamas continues to rule over Gaza and launch attacks every so often?”. I will go out of my way to just pretend this is unintentional and I am misunderstanding you. Is there a way for Israel to eliminate Hamas without harming “Palestinian civilians”? Is it that Israel is choosing a worse way to kill Hamas members and they ought to do it differently? Or is this just your subtle way of saying Israel should not eliminate Hamas? There isn't a special combination of words that you're going to find where you'll get me to agree with you that it's okay to bomb the civilians of a group that you've been trying to ethnically cleanse for years.
I understand the perspective you’re fond of and I’m not trying to pull you away from it. What I wanted to verify is that you do not advocate for any pathway that leads to Hamas no longer controlling territory. I was curious if I was missing something and that there were other ideas people had for preventing Hamas from controlling land because it felt like you didn’t like any of the ideas I’m familiar with. But just to be entirely clear, it’s not important to me to change anyone’s ideas because none of us will ever change anything. It’s just a bunch of ideas rubbing against each other and learning. All totally irrelevant.
So far my impression is that folks in this conversation fit into 1 of 2 categories:
1: The costs of eliminating Hamas are too big, so we should allow Hamas to continue launching attacks that kill tons of people every so often because it’s better than all available options of eliminating Hamas. Eliminating Hamas will always come with some form of ethnic cleansing, so it must be avoided entirely.
2: Hamas must be eliminated in order to prevent repeats of October 7. This is fundamentally a war and the ugliness of war is a sad reality.
For anyone who feels like they are better described by [1] than [2], do you think a 2 state solution will ever be a reality? If so, why/how?
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