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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. |
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On October 30 2023 23:50 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2023 23:17 Nebuchad wrote:On October 30 2023 17:34 pmp10 wrote:
I could likewise ask why countries voting 'yes' denied Israel right to self-defense despite it being guaranteed in the founding UN charter.
We could lawyer about it forever.
The point is - when you ignore the cause-effect chain that led us here, then you are no longer looking for solutions.
It's as true of Israel as it is of its critics. To be fair to pmp10, there's a fog of war that descends on this thread whenever someone mentions the settlements in the West Bank. It can't be cleared, and it remains on the posts for a few hours until someone else comes back to the idea that Israel is just defending itself I think the dog of war exists that some people put all the responsibility on Israel for the civilian victims and others put a shared responsibility on Israel Hamas and Iran.
No that's not what's happening because if someone is doing self-defense they don't have a shared responsibility, they have no responsibility at all.
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On October 30 2023 23:54 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2023 23:50 JimmiC wrote:On October 30 2023 23:17 Nebuchad wrote:On October 30 2023 17:34 pmp10 wrote:
I could likewise ask why countries voting 'yes' denied Israel right to self-defense despite it being guaranteed in the founding UN charter.
We could lawyer about it forever.
The point is - when you ignore the cause-effect chain that led us here, then you are no longer looking for solutions.
It's as true of Israel as it is of its critics. To be fair to pmp10, there's a fog of war that descends on this thread whenever someone mentions the settlements in the West Bank. It can't be cleared, and it remains on the posts for a few hours until someone else comes back to the idea that Israel is just defending itself I think the dog of war exists that some people put all the responsibility on Israel for the civilian victims and others put a shared responsibility on Israel Hamas and Iran. No that's not what's happening because if someone is doing self-defense they don't have a shared responsibility, they have no responsibility at all. wtf?
If you attack me I can defend my self from you. But it doesn't mean I can go around killing your entire extended family and call it self defence and claim no responsibility.
Israel seeking to defend themselves against Hamas doesn't give them leave to kill 2+ million civilians in Gaza.
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On October 31 2023 00:02 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2023 23:54 Nebuchad wrote:On October 30 2023 23:50 JimmiC wrote:On October 30 2023 23:17 Nebuchad wrote:On October 30 2023 17:34 pmp10 wrote:
I could likewise ask why countries voting 'yes' denied Israel right to self-defense despite it being guaranteed in the founding UN charter.
We could lawyer about it forever.
The point is - when you ignore the cause-effect chain that led us here, then you are no longer looking for solutions.
It's as true of Israel as it is of its critics. To be fair to pmp10, there's a fog of war that descends on this thread whenever someone mentions the settlements in the West Bank. It can't be cleared, and it remains on the posts for a few hours until someone else comes back to the idea that Israel is just defending itself I think the dog of war exists that some people put all the responsibility on Israel for the civilian victims and others put a shared responsibility on Israel Hamas and Iran. No that's not what's happening because if someone is doing self-defense they don't have a shared responsibility, they have no responsibility at all. wtf? If you attack me I can defend my self from you. But it doesn't mean I can go around killing your entire extended family and call it self defence and claim no responsibility.
Yes because those other actions aren't self-defense.
If I was out there insisting that this scenario is a self-defense scenario then I would be lying but I would be lying on the side of "not having responsibility", not on the side of "shared responsibility".
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On October 30 2023 23:54 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2023 23:50 JimmiC wrote:On October 30 2023 23:17 Nebuchad wrote:On October 30 2023 17:34 pmp10 wrote:
I could likewise ask why countries voting 'yes' denied Israel right to self-defense despite it being guaranteed in the founding UN charter.
We could lawyer about it forever.
The point is - when you ignore the cause-effect chain that led us here, then you are no longer looking for solutions.
It's as true of Israel as it is of its critics. To be fair to pmp10, there's a fog of war that descends on this thread whenever someone mentions the settlements in the West Bank. It can't be cleared, and it remains on the posts for a few hours until someone else comes back to the idea that Israel is just defending itself I think the dog of war exists that some people put all the responsibility on Israel for the civilian victims and others put a shared responsibility on Israel Hamas and Iran. No that's not what's happening because if someone is doing self-defense they don't have a shared responsibility, they have no responsibility at all.
In your eyes, when did this conflict between Israelis and Palestinians begin?
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On October 31 2023 01:10 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2023 23:54 Nebuchad wrote:On October 30 2023 23:50 JimmiC wrote:On October 30 2023 23:17 Nebuchad wrote:On October 30 2023 17:34 pmp10 wrote:
I could likewise ask why countries voting 'yes' denied Israel right to self-defense despite it being guaranteed in the founding UN charter.
We could lawyer about it forever.
The point is - when you ignore the cause-effect chain that led us here, then you are no longer looking for solutions.
It's as true of Israel as it is of its critics. To be fair to pmp10, there's a fog of war that descends on this thread whenever someone mentions the settlements in the West Bank. It can't be cleared, and it remains on the posts for a few hours until someone else comes back to the idea that Israel is just defending itself I think the dog of war exists that some people put all the responsibility on Israel for the civilian victims and others put a shared responsibility on Israel Hamas and Iran. No that's not what's happening because if someone is doing self-defense they don't have a shared responsibility, they have no responsibility at all. In your eyes, when did this conflict between Israelis and Palestinians begin?
I have no idea. The history doesn't matter to me because we can't change it, what matters is the current situation.
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On October 31 2023 01:14 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2023 01:10 Mohdoo wrote:On October 30 2023 23:54 Nebuchad wrote:On October 30 2023 23:50 JimmiC wrote:On October 30 2023 23:17 Nebuchad wrote:On October 30 2023 17:34 pmp10 wrote:
I could likewise ask why countries voting 'yes' denied Israel right to self-defense despite it being guaranteed in the founding UN charter.
We could lawyer about it forever.
The point is - when you ignore the cause-effect chain that led us here, then you are no longer looking for solutions.
It's as true of Israel as it is of its critics. To be fair to pmp10, there's a fog of war that descends on this thread whenever someone mentions the settlements in the West Bank. It can't be cleared, and it remains on the posts for a few hours until someone else comes back to the idea that Israel is just defending itself I think the dog of war exists that some people put all the responsibility on Israel for the civilian victims and others put a shared responsibility on Israel Hamas and Iran. No that's not what's happening because if someone is doing self-defense they don't have a shared responsibility, they have no responsibility at all. In your eyes, when did this conflict between Israelis and Palestinians begin? I have no idea. The history doesn't matter to me because we can't change it, what matters is the current situation. How can you claim Israel is acting in self defence when you don't know the history and don't know who started the conflict?
Or do you think that is not relevant?
In which case its only logical that Hamas is now allowed to use any and all means necessary to defend itself from Israel. So you can't hold them responsible for israeli civilian casualties going forward because they to are acting in self defence.
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I think the obvious comparison is that was the Iraq and pakistan invasions by the US justified as being in self defence to 9/11. You can't just stretch out "right to self defence" to whatever end you wanted from the begining and expect to be celebrated for it.
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On October 31 2023 01:26 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2023 01:14 Nebuchad wrote:On October 31 2023 01:10 Mohdoo wrote:On October 30 2023 23:54 Nebuchad wrote:On October 30 2023 23:50 JimmiC wrote:On October 30 2023 23:17 Nebuchad wrote:On October 30 2023 17:34 pmp10 wrote:
I could likewise ask why countries voting 'yes' denied Israel right to self-defense despite it being guaranteed in the founding UN charter.
We could lawyer about it forever.
The point is - when you ignore the cause-effect chain that led us here, then you are no longer looking for solutions.
It's as true of Israel as it is of its critics. To be fair to pmp10, there's a fog of war that descends on this thread whenever someone mentions the settlements in the West Bank. It can't be cleared, and it remains on the posts for a few hours until someone else comes back to the idea that Israel is just defending itself I think the dog of war exists that some people put all the responsibility on Israel for the civilian victims and others put a shared responsibility on Israel Hamas and Iran. No that's not what's happening because if someone is doing self-defense they don't have a shared responsibility, they have no responsibility at all. In your eyes, when did this conflict between Israelis and Palestinians begin? I have no idea. The history doesn't matter to me because we can't change it, what matters is the current situation. How can you claim Israel is acting in self defence when you don't know the history and don't know who started the conflict? Or do you think that is not relevant? In which case its only logical that Hamas is now allowed to use any and all means necessary to defend itself from Israel. So you can't hold them responsible for israeli civilian casualties going forward because they to are acting in self defence.
We have some miscommunication going on. I don't think Israel is acting in self-defense.
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On October 31 2023 01:14 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2023 01:10 Mohdoo wrote:On October 30 2023 23:54 Nebuchad wrote:On October 30 2023 23:50 JimmiC wrote:On October 30 2023 23:17 Nebuchad wrote:On October 30 2023 17:34 pmp10 wrote:
I could likewise ask why countries voting 'yes' denied Israel right to self-defense despite it being guaranteed in the founding UN charter.
We could lawyer about it forever.
The point is - when you ignore the cause-effect chain that led us here, then you are no longer looking for solutions.
It's as true of Israel as it is of its critics. To be fair to pmp10, there's a fog of war that descends on this thread whenever someone mentions the settlements in the West Bank. It can't be cleared, and it remains on the posts for a few hours until someone else comes back to the idea that Israel is just defending itself I think the dog of war exists that some people put all the responsibility on Israel for the civilian victims and others put a shared responsibility on Israel Hamas and Iran. No that's not what's happening because if someone is doing self-defense they don't have a shared responsibility, they have no responsibility at all. In your eyes, when did this conflict between Israelis and Palestinians begin? I have no idea. The history doesn't matter to me because we can't change it, what matters is the current situation.
It matters because the definition of the conflict matters. If someone decides the universe was created 50 years ago, Israel is colonizing. If the universe was not created 50 years ago, Israel and Palestine are at war. It is deeply dishonest to frame the conflict as beginning recently because that timeframe is defined purely for the intention of framing Palestinians as victims rather than participants in a war.
You could pick various points in history depending on who you want to frame as a victim for pretty much any conflict that’s ever happened. Either you start from the beginning or you just accept that it’s a war. The way people use “self defense” is remarkably silly with this conflict. Neither Palestine or Israel are acting in self defense.
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On October 31 2023 03:07 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2023 01:14 Nebuchad wrote:On October 31 2023 01:10 Mohdoo wrote:On October 30 2023 23:54 Nebuchad wrote:On October 30 2023 23:50 JimmiC wrote:On October 30 2023 23:17 Nebuchad wrote:On October 30 2023 17:34 pmp10 wrote:
I could likewise ask why countries voting 'yes' denied Israel right to self-defense despite it being guaranteed in the founding UN charter.
We could lawyer about it forever.
The point is - when you ignore the cause-effect chain that led us here, then you are no longer looking for solutions.
It's as true of Israel as it is of its critics. To be fair to pmp10, there's a fog of war that descends on this thread whenever someone mentions the settlements in the West Bank. It can't be cleared, and it remains on the posts for a few hours until someone else comes back to the idea that Israel is just defending itself I think the dog of war exists that some people put all the responsibility on Israel for the civilian victims and others put a shared responsibility on Israel Hamas and Iran. No that's not what's happening because if someone is doing self-defense they don't have a shared responsibility, they have no responsibility at all. In your eyes, when did this conflict between Israelis and Palestinians begin? I have no idea. The history doesn't matter to me because we can't change it, what matters is the current situation. It matters because the definition of the conflict matters. If someone decides the universe was created 50 years ago, Israel is colonizing. If the universe was not created 50 years ago, Israel and Palestine are at war. It is deeply dishonest to frame the conflict as beginning recently because that timeframe is defined purely for the intention of framing Palestinians as victims rather than participants in a war. You could pick various points in history depending on who you want to frame as a victim for pretty much any conflict that’s ever happened. Either you start from the beginning or you just accept that it’s a war. The way people use “self defense” is remarkably silly with this conflict. Neither Palestine or Israel are acting in self defense.
Well, anything before 1920 doesn't make much sense. Before that, the area was a part of the Ottoman empire and that was that. And I'd argue that since the 1920s, Israel is colonizing. I am not sure why that is relevant to whether Israelis have a right to be on that bit of land, seeing as none of those involved in the current conflict had anything to do with any of that 100-year-old history.
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On October 31 2023 03:07 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2023 01:14 Nebuchad wrote:On October 31 2023 01:10 Mohdoo wrote:On October 30 2023 23:54 Nebuchad wrote:On October 30 2023 23:50 JimmiC wrote:On October 30 2023 23:17 Nebuchad wrote:On October 30 2023 17:34 pmp10 wrote:
I could likewise ask why countries voting 'yes' denied Israel right to self-defense despite it being guaranteed in the founding UN charter.
We could lawyer about it forever.
The point is - when you ignore the cause-effect chain that led us here, then you are no longer looking for solutions.
It's as true of Israel as it is of its critics. To be fair to pmp10, there's a fog of war that descends on this thread whenever someone mentions the settlements in the West Bank. It can't be cleared, and it remains on the posts for a few hours until someone else comes back to the idea that Israel is just defending itself I think the dog of war exists that some people put all the responsibility on Israel for the civilian victims and others put a shared responsibility on Israel Hamas and Iran. No that's not what's happening because if someone is doing self-defense they don't have a shared responsibility, they have no responsibility at all. In your eyes, when did this conflict between Israelis and Palestinians begin? I have no idea. The history doesn't matter to me because we can't change it, what matters is the current situation. It matters because the definition of the conflict matters. If someone decides the universe was created 50 years ago, Israel is colonizing. If the universe was not created 50 years ago, Israel and Palestine are at war. It is deeply dishonest to frame the conflict as beginning recently because that timeframe is defined purely for the intention of framing Palestinians as victims rather than participants in a war. You could pick various points in history depending on who you want to frame as a victim for pretty much any conflict that’s ever happened. Either you start from the beginning or you just accept that it’s a war. The way people use “self defense” is remarkably silly with this conflict. Neither Palestine or Israel are acting in self defense.
What you describe here is to consider history but only 50 years of it. That would be dishonest. It's quite different from not considering history, which is what I said. We're not going to change history, so we can look at what's happening today. I agree with you that looking at what's happening today is making the government of Israel look like oppressors and Palestinians look like victims, but that wasn't my "dishonest intention", that's just the end result.
Also it's not directly written in the post but I'm getting the sense that you think the settlements in the West Bank are part of history, as if perhaps that's what you're thinking about when you're talking about Israel being colonizers in the last 50 years. Just in case that's what you meant, I'll add: they are not part of history. They're happening right now, and the events of october 7th only emboldened the settlers.
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On October 31 2023 03:34 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2023 03:07 Mohdoo wrote:On October 31 2023 01:14 Nebuchad wrote:On October 31 2023 01:10 Mohdoo wrote:On October 30 2023 23:54 Nebuchad wrote:On October 30 2023 23:50 JimmiC wrote:On October 30 2023 23:17 Nebuchad wrote:On October 30 2023 17:34 pmp10 wrote:
I could likewise ask why countries voting 'yes' denied Israel right to self-defense despite it being guaranteed in the founding UN charter.
We could lawyer about it forever.
The point is - when you ignore the cause-effect chain that led us here, then you are no longer looking for solutions.
It's as true of Israel as it is of its critics. To be fair to pmp10, there's a fog of war that descends on this thread whenever someone mentions the settlements in the West Bank. It can't be cleared, and it remains on the posts for a few hours until someone else comes back to the idea that Israel is just defending itself I think the dog of war exists that some people put all the responsibility on Israel for the civilian victims and others put a shared responsibility on Israel Hamas and Iran. No that's not what's happening because if someone is doing self-defense they don't have a shared responsibility, they have no responsibility at all. In your eyes, when did this conflict between Israelis and Palestinians begin? I have no idea. The history doesn't matter to me because we can't change it, what matters is the current situation. It matters because the definition of the conflict matters. If someone decides the universe was created 50 years ago, Israel is colonizing. If the universe was not created 50 years ago, Israel and Palestine are at war. It is deeply dishonest to frame the conflict as beginning recently because that timeframe is defined purely for the intention of framing Palestinians as victims rather than participants in a war. You could pick various points in history depending on who you want to frame as a victim for pretty much any conflict that’s ever happened. Either you start from the beginning or you just accept that it’s a war. The way people use “self defense” is remarkably silly with this conflict. Neither Palestine or Israel are acting in self defense. Well, anything before 1920 doesn't make much sense. Before that, the area was a part of the Ottoman empire and that was that. And I'd argue that since the 1920s, Israel is colonizing. I am not sure why that is relevant to whether Israelis have a right to be on that bit of land, seeing as none of those involved in the current conflict had anything to do with any of that 100-year-old history.
Are you saying nothing before 1920 has any impact on what happened after 1920? I feel like that is extremely not true. So long as events before 1920 contributed to events after 1920, it is appropriate to consider them.
So sure, if you pretend Jews and Palestinians met each other for the first time in 1920 and were slamming beers together and having a great time, when suddenly Jews deciding to colonize, it’s easy to view the dynamic as colonizing. But there isn’t a reason to do that when we have a great of evidence that events before 1920 had a significant impact.
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On October 31 2023 04:22 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2023 03:34 Acrofales wrote:On October 31 2023 03:07 Mohdoo wrote:On October 31 2023 01:14 Nebuchad wrote:On October 31 2023 01:10 Mohdoo wrote:On October 30 2023 23:54 Nebuchad wrote:On October 30 2023 23:50 JimmiC wrote:On October 30 2023 23:17 Nebuchad wrote:On October 30 2023 17:34 pmp10 wrote:
I could likewise ask why countries voting 'yes' denied Israel right to self-defense despite it being guaranteed in the founding UN charter.
We could lawyer about it forever.
The point is - when you ignore the cause-effect chain that led us here, then you are no longer looking for solutions.
It's as true of Israel as it is of its critics. To be fair to pmp10, there's a fog of war that descends on this thread whenever someone mentions the settlements in the West Bank. It can't be cleared, and it remains on the posts for a few hours until someone else comes back to the idea that Israel is just defending itself I think the dog of war exists that some people put all the responsibility on Israel for the civilian victims and others put a shared responsibility on Israel Hamas and Iran. No that's not what's happening because if someone is doing self-defense they don't have a shared responsibility, they have no responsibility at all. In your eyes, when did this conflict between Israelis and Palestinians begin? I have no idea. The history doesn't matter to me because we can't change it, what matters is the current situation. It matters because the definition of the conflict matters. If someone decides the universe was created 50 years ago, Israel is colonizing. If the universe was not created 50 years ago, Israel and Palestine are at war. It is deeply dishonest to frame the conflict as beginning recently because that timeframe is defined purely for the intention of framing Palestinians as victims rather than participants in a war. You could pick various points in history depending on who you want to frame as a victim for pretty much any conflict that’s ever happened. Either you start from the beginning or you just accept that it’s a war. The way people use “self defense” is remarkably silly with this conflict. Neither Palestine or Israel are acting in self defense. Well, anything before 1920 doesn't make much sense. Before that, the area was a part of the Ottoman empire and that was that. And I'd argue that since the 1920s, Israel is colonizing. I am not sure why that is relevant to whether Israelis have a right to be on that bit of land, seeing as none of those involved in the current conflict had anything to do with any of that 100-year-old history. Are you saying nothing before 1920 has any impact on what happened after 1920? I feel like that is extremely not true. So long as events before 1920 contributed to events after 1920, it is appropriate to consider them. So sure, if you pretend Jews and Palestinians met each other for the first time in 1920 and were slamming beers together and having a great time, when suddenly Jews deciding to colonize, it’s easy to view the dynamic as colonizing. But there isn’t a reason to do that when we have a great of evidence that events before 1920 had a significant impact.
Okay, explain to me how the Ottoman Empire or earlier has any bearing on the current conflict between Israel and Palestine. Without referencing certain religious manuscripts please, because that isn't *history*. Because unless we're referring to pre-Roman times, there has been no serious attempt to establish a state of Israel before the growth of Zionism.
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On October 31 2023 07:19 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2023 04:22 Mohdoo wrote:On October 31 2023 03:34 Acrofales wrote:On October 31 2023 03:07 Mohdoo wrote:On October 31 2023 01:14 Nebuchad wrote:On October 31 2023 01:10 Mohdoo wrote:On October 30 2023 23:54 Nebuchad wrote:On October 30 2023 23:50 JimmiC wrote:On October 30 2023 23:17 Nebuchad wrote:On October 30 2023 17:34 pmp10 wrote:
I could likewise ask why countries voting 'yes' denied Israel right to self-defense despite it being guaranteed in the founding UN charter.
We could lawyer about it forever.
The point is - when you ignore the cause-effect chain that led us here, then you are no longer looking for solutions.
It's as true of Israel as it is of its critics. To be fair to pmp10, there's a fog of war that descends on this thread whenever someone mentions the settlements in the West Bank. It can't be cleared, and it remains on the posts for a few hours until someone else comes back to the idea that Israel is just defending itself I think the dog of war exists that some people put all the responsibility on Israel for the civilian victims and others put a shared responsibility on Israel Hamas and Iran. No that's not what's happening because if someone is doing self-defense they don't have a shared responsibility, they have no responsibility at all. In your eyes, when did this conflict between Israelis and Palestinians begin? I have no idea. The history doesn't matter to me because we can't change it, what matters is the current situation. It matters because the definition of the conflict matters. If someone decides the universe was created 50 years ago, Israel is colonizing. If the universe was not created 50 years ago, Israel and Palestine are at war. It is deeply dishonest to frame the conflict as beginning recently because that timeframe is defined purely for the intention of framing Palestinians as victims rather than participants in a war. You could pick various points in history depending on who you want to frame as a victim for pretty much any conflict that’s ever happened. Either you start from the beginning or you just accept that it’s a war. The way people use “self defense” is remarkably silly with this conflict. Neither Palestine or Israel are acting in self defense. Well, anything before 1920 doesn't make much sense. Before that, the area was a part of the Ottoman empire and that was that. And I'd argue that since the 1920s, Israel is colonizing. I am not sure why that is relevant to whether Israelis have a right to be on that bit of land, seeing as none of those involved in the current conflict had anything to do with any of that 100-year-old history. Are you saying nothing before 1920 has any impact on what happened after 1920? I feel like that is extremely not true. So long as events before 1920 contributed to events after 1920, it is appropriate to consider them. So sure, if you pretend Jews and Palestinians met each other for the first time in 1920 and were slamming beers together and having a great time, when suddenly Jews deciding to colonize, it’s easy to view the dynamic as colonizing. But there isn’t a reason to do that when we have a great of evidence that events before 1920 had a significant impact. Okay, explain to me how the Ottoman Empire or earlier has any bearing on the current conflict between Israel and Palestine. Without referencing certain religious manuscripts please, because that isn't *history*. Because unless we're referring to pre-Roman times, there has been no serious attempt to establish a state of Israel before the growth of Zionism.
Zionism emerged during the Ottoman Empire and the first two Aliyah's were to Ottoman Palestine. E.g. Ben Gurion migrated during the second Aliyah. Indirectly Jews were also second class citizens and persecuted during various periods.
None of that really matters for the question of self defense. There was a ceasefire and Hamas broke it. I've broadly seen two arguments against Israels use of self defense as a justification for the war.
1. It's technically not self defense because Gaza is occupied and Hamas is not a state actor.
2. The current response is not proportional.
The first one I find uninteresting. Hamas is an armed group that governs Gaza. That it might not technically fit the definition of self defense misses the point and intent of the law. The second one is more interesting since that's a legal grey area. It's not clear what proportional is. Depending on your interpretation eradicating Hamas can be proportional.
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Well, first of all, on what grounds is Israel 'eradicating' Hamas? Are they at war with Gaza, and Hamas is the hostile government? Then Gaza must be recognized as a state, with all that such recognition entails. Is Gaza a territory occupied by Israel? Then it's Israel's duty to provide the basic services and ensure safety of its citizens.
Right now, Israel is basically having its cake and eating it too, by insisting that Hamas & Gaza is not in any way under Israel's jurisdiction, yet at the same time they pretty much completely control all access to the Gaza strip and insist they have the right to 'police' it as they see fit, all the while Palestine isn't recognized as an independent state by any of their allies (much on Israel's own behest).
As for proportionality of the response... pretty much everything Israel has done since the beginning of their campaign is in direct violation of Geneva Convention and there's really no 'legal grey area' about it at all.
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On October 31 2023 18:23 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2023 07:19 Acrofales wrote:On October 31 2023 04:22 Mohdoo wrote:On October 31 2023 03:34 Acrofales wrote:On October 31 2023 03:07 Mohdoo wrote:On October 31 2023 01:14 Nebuchad wrote:On October 31 2023 01:10 Mohdoo wrote:On October 30 2023 23:54 Nebuchad wrote:On October 30 2023 23:50 JimmiC wrote:On October 30 2023 23:17 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
To be fair to pmp10, there's a fog of war that descends on this thread whenever someone mentions the settlements in the West Bank. It can't be cleared, and it remains on the posts for a few hours until someone else comes back to the idea that Israel is just defending itself I think the dog of war exists that some people put all the responsibility on Israel for the civilian victims and others put a shared responsibility on Israel Hamas and Iran. No that's not what's happening because if someone is doing self-defense they don't have a shared responsibility, they have no responsibility at all. In your eyes, when did this conflict between Israelis and Palestinians begin? I have no idea. The history doesn't matter to me because we can't change it, what matters is the current situation. It matters because the definition of the conflict matters. If someone decides the universe was created 50 years ago, Israel is colonizing. If the universe was not created 50 years ago, Israel and Palestine are at war. It is deeply dishonest to frame the conflict as beginning recently because that timeframe is defined purely for the intention of framing Palestinians as victims rather than participants in a war. You could pick various points in history depending on who you want to frame as a victim for pretty much any conflict that’s ever happened. Either you start from the beginning or you just accept that it’s a war. The way people use “self defense” is remarkably silly with this conflict. Neither Palestine or Israel are acting in self defense. Well, anything before 1920 doesn't make much sense. Before that, the area was a part of the Ottoman empire and that was that. And I'd argue that since the 1920s, Israel is colonizing. I am not sure why that is relevant to whether Israelis have a right to be on that bit of land, seeing as none of those involved in the current conflict had anything to do with any of that 100-year-old history. Are you saying nothing before 1920 has any impact on what happened after 1920? I feel like that is extremely not true. So long as events before 1920 contributed to events after 1920, it is appropriate to consider them. So sure, if you pretend Jews and Palestinians met each other for the first time in 1920 and were slamming beers together and having a great time, when suddenly Jews deciding to colonize, it’s easy to view the dynamic as colonizing. But there isn’t a reason to do that when we have a great of evidence that events before 1920 had a significant impact. Okay, explain to me how the Ottoman Empire or earlier has any bearing on the current conflict between Israel and Palestine. Without referencing certain religious manuscripts please, because that isn't *history*. Because unless we're referring to pre-Roman times, there has been no serious attempt to establish a state of Israel before the growth of Zionism. Zionism emerged during the Ottoman Empire and the first two Aliyah's were to Ottoman Palestine. E.g. Ben Gurion migrated during the second Aliyah. Indirectly Jews were also second class citizens and persecuted during various periods. None of that really matters for the question of self defense. There was a ceasefire and Hamas broke it. I've broadly seen two arguments against Israels use of self defense as a justification for the war. 1. It's technically not self defense because Gaza is occupied and Hamas is not a state actor. 2. The current response is not proportional. The first one I find uninteresting. Hamas is an armed group that governs Gaza. That it might not technically fit the definition of self defense misses the point and intent of the law. The second one is more interesting since that's a legal grey area. It's not clear what proportional is. Depending on your interpretation eradicating Hamas can be proportional.
You find it "uninteresting" that Israel was already in the process of attacking Palestine before it started to self-defend against Palestine?
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On October 31 2023 18:23 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2023 07:19 Acrofales wrote:On October 31 2023 04:22 Mohdoo wrote:On October 31 2023 03:34 Acrofales wrote:On October 31 2023 03:07 Mohdoo wrote:On October 31 2023 01:14 Nebuchad wrote:On October 31 2023 01:10 Mohdoo wrote:On October 30 2023 23:54 Nebuchad wrote:On October 30 2023 23:50 JimmiC wrote:On October 30 2023 23:17 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
To be fair to pmp10, there's a fog of war that descends on this thread whenever someone mentions the settlements in the West Bank. It can't be cleared, and it remains on the posts for a few hours until someone else comes back to the idea that Israel is just defending itself I think the dog of war exists that some people put all the responsibility on Israel for the civilian victims and others put a shared responsibility on Israel Hamas and Iran. No that's not what's happening because if someone is doing self-defense they don't have a shared responsibility, they have no responsibility at all. In your eyes, when did this conflict between Israelis and Palestinians begin? I have no idea. The history doesn't matter to me because we can't change it, what matters is the current situation. It matters because the definition of the conflict matters. If someone decides the universe was created 50 years ago, Israel is colonizing. If the universe was not created 50 years ago, Israel and Palestine are at war. It is deeply dishonest to frame the conflict as beginning recently because that timeframe is defined purely for the intention of framing Palestinians as victims rather than participants in a war. You could pick various points in history depending on who you want to frame as a victim for pretty much any conflict that’s ever happened. Either you start from the beginning or you just accept that it’s a war. The way people use “self defense” is remarkably silly with this conflict. Neither Palestine or Israel are acting in self defense. Well, anything before 1920 doesn't make much sense. Before that, the area was a part of the Ottoman empire and that was that. And I'd argue that since the 1920s, Israel is colonizing. I am not sure why that is relevant to whether Israelis have a right to be on that bit of land, seeing as none of those involved in the current conflict had anything to do with any of that 100-year-old history. Are you saying nothing before 1920 has any impact on what happened after 1920? I feel like that is extremely not true. So long as events before 1920 contributed to events after 1920, it is appropriate to consider them. So sure, if you pretend Jews and Palestinians met each other for the first time in 1920 and were slamming beers together and having a great time, when suddenly Jews deciding to colonize, it’s easy to view the dynamic as colonizing. But there isn’t a reason to do that when we have a great of evidence that events before 1920 had a significant impact. Okay, explain to me how the Ottoman Empire or earlier has any bearing on the current conflict between Israel and Palestine. Without referencing certain religious manuscripts please, because that isn't *history*. Because unless we're referring to pre-Roman times, there has been no serious attempt to establish a state of Israel before the growth of Zionism. Zionism emerged during the Ottoman Empire and the first two Aliyah's were to Ottoman Palestine. E.g. Ben Gurion migrated during the second Aliyah. Indirectly Jews were also second class citizens and persecuted during various periods. None of that really matters for the question of self defense. There was a ceasefire and Hamas broke it. I've broadly seen two arguments against Israels use of self defense as a justification for the war. 1. It's technically not self defense because Gaza is occupied and Hamas is not a state actor. 2. The current response is not proportional. The first one I find uninteresting. Hamas is an armed group that governs Gaza. That it might not technically fit the definition of self defense misses the point and intent of the law. The second one is more interesting since that's a legal grey area. It's not clear what proportional is. Depending on your interpretation eradicating Hamas can be proportional.
To disregard the first point is to:
1. Wave away the entire argument that Israel is a colonial project and that those violently opposed are freedom fighters regaining their land. It implicitly implies that Israel has a right to the land and are on the whole justified in its actions. You can argue that is your view or that say Hamas isn't correct in its approach, which is fine, but unless you've discussed that already I don't think you can just wave away half the argument.
2. It also implies that this wasn't an eventuality with how the Gazans have been treated. Hamas shouldn't attack civilians or have a desire to kill all Jews, but tio imply that there the Gazan open air prison doesn't create the hostile conditions that bred Hamas at all is I think a little short sighted. Israel created their own boogeyman and then played victim to it, no?
3. It also ignores that there isn't constant land seizure and other aggressive acts by Israel into WB, Leb, and Syria.
To your response on proportionality, I'm confused why we so willingly disregard the lives of Palestinian civillians.
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The propositional whatever argument is so dumb. That would mean Hamas can just decide to trade with 1000 lives every so often because they are barbarians who openly admit they love the idea of sacrificing themselves for killing Jews. They have endorsed the idea and want it to happen frequently.
I feel like you guys are essentially not even viewing Hamas or Gazans as people with agency. Is it that you guys see it as their religion or culture or whatever prevents them from behaving rationally, so it’s ok for this trade of lives to be something they encourage and make happen every so often?
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Norway28701 Posts
Most people on gaza do not want to sacrifice their lives to kill jews, wtf.
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EPT
