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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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Northern Ireland23843 Posts
On November 10 2023 10:50 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2023 10:10 WombaT wrote:On November 10 2023 09:42 JimmiC wrote:On November 10 2023 09:38 RvB wrote:On November 10 2023 08:55 BlackJack wrote:
There are a lot of people saying Israel is committing genocide. Only most people making that argument are young adults on social media or attending protests that probably couldn't find Israel on a map 2 months ago. They aren't here. Jimmi's problem is that he often craves to argue against the dumbest and weakest arguments, I'm guessing because they are the easiest to refute. Unfortunately by sheer virtue of this forum having people generally at average intelligence or above those stupid arguments don't really exist here. The only person that keeps bringing up genocide is Jimmi himself, I'm guessing trying to bait someone into adopting the position that Israel is committing genocide so he can heroically refute it. If all else fails he'll just insist people are arguing that Israel is committing genocide by slowly conflating it with ethnic cleansing and then moving on to flat out making things up.
There were multiple people calling it a genocide. You can just type genocide into search at see the many many posts using it and then look at the ones after discussing it. Not to mention it’s been the main discussion point for days. You do not need to find him quotes there is no way he believes this. This is just him using his extreme ignorance / the BJ classic of moving the goal posts and complete freedom to be an asshole to try to bait me into responding so I can get banned and he can move on to internet fighting with his next person. And in true BJ fashion while he complains about dog piles on him and claims victimhood the instant he can pile on he jumps on it and does not even bother to even pretend to add to the discussion. Oddly enough nobody else is accusing BJ of this, and at times in the past people have. As they have me given I’m an idiot People are criticising you for dancing around definitions and rank inconsistency in expressed views, get over it. Nothing to do with BlackJack whatsoever. You want to simultaneously moan about China’s treatment of Uighurs and hand wave extremely similar behaviour by the Israeli state and yet somehow be seen as some centrist, logical voice of reason. It’s fucking nonsense, people have called it as nonsense and well, tough, deal with it. It’s not the same and I’ll explain it again. Because unlike everyone who has to use logical fallacies and get all internet mad instead of using good arguments I’m not scared of my logic. China has made a concerted effort to destroy their culture. They don’t allow them to practice their religion they arrest those who do and “re-educate l” them. They are erasing their history. If you are actually interested in it I’ll dig up some good sources so let me know. The strange part of this gotcha is some of the same people who were apologizing for China are the most mad at Israel so does your gotcha get them? Except unlike me they were not saying China was doing anything wrong and it just hadn’t risen to the level of genocide they were denying it was not happening or what was happening was justified. So maybe go make your argument with them.
It isn’t intended as a gotcha, on face values both scenarios clearly tick some boxes from the ethnix cleansing checklist. Different ones perhaps, and the entire list remains unchecked, but its a matter of degrees, few instances of it actually utilise every methodolgy under the banner.
I largely steer clear of all things Chinese, unlike many Western topics because I don’t have the knowledge, points of reference or easy ability to converse with Chinese people regularly that I do with Westerners.
So I’m left sifting through a mix of earnest reportage, anti-Chinese propaganda and, absolutely from segments of the left I interact with, very generous pro-Chinese propaganda as well.
I just outright don’t have the time working brutal night shifts currently, nor the energy to currently plug that gap, which is why i dont particularly engage on that particular topic.
Israel/Palestine is an issue that has engaged me in some capacity for 20+ years. I am on a more familiar ground and thus more comfortable engaging.
If we are, as you sensibly suggested to look at our biases I’m not singling you out as some kind of mic drop it’s from a genuine confusion in your reticence to consider one ethnic cleansing and the other not.
I have my biases too, may as well put them out there. There’s a huge power imbalance here, I don’t automatically side with the ‘underdog’ but it does sway things. There is also the historic (and indeed contemporary) history of anti-Semitism and Jewish intellectual tradition in more humanitarian ways of existence. If any peoples should know to do better in this regard it should be the Israeli people.
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On November 11 2023 00:56 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2023 23:39 Magic Powers wrote:
I wouldn't be able to point out a single person in this thread who'd fit the description of a Hamas apologist. Then you are extremely generous with your outlook. When someone starts claiming their genocidal ideology, talk, actions are not. Asks if they are justified. Starts to beat around the bush about the IDF doing the Hamas killing in spite of them taking credit, all the evidence including the self shot body cam and cell cam videos. When people are making claims about how the “west” treats Palestine without seemingly any realization that none of the Muslim or “Eastern” countries recognized Palestine before. I’m not sure if it is that people are not in tune to the left dog whistle’s the way they are to the right, maybe because they can not believe someone that shares their values in many ways can differ so hard on other things. But for me there is posters here who dog whistle’s have crossed into such blatant territory that it is impossible to ignore.
I'm open to being educated about left-wing dog whistling. Is HasanAbi one of the people doing it? Can you also give an example of a comment in this thread?
About recognition of a/the State of Palestine: I'm reading that Egypt has in fact recognized it, but the US has not. Neither have Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Mexico or the United Kingdom (Source: Wikipedia).
You are right that other Middle Eastern countries have not recognized the State of Palestine, but that can be explained by the tensions with Israel. Why single out the ME (ignoring Egypt?) if Europe and the US aren't taking a strong stance? 138 of the 193 states in the UN apparently fully recognize Palestine. What about the rest?
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Last phone call form the hospital you could hear gunfire as Hamas and the IDF fought around the hospital.
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On November 10 2023 21:03 Godwrath wrote:I said that people denying that there is a ethnical cleanse going on are genocide enablers, not that Israel is commiting genocide. I stand by it, i don't think it's that confusing since most of the time it's a two step ladder, and at the time, people were discussing about letting Israel bomb the hell out of Gaza as a reasonable response "to stop Hamas", yourself included.
The implication of calling others genocide enablers is pretty clear. It also shows the double standards of some in the thread. Calling others genocide enablers is not called out but anti semitism is. As for the bombing I've already explained how removing them from power in Gaza is legal under international law. That Israel uses more powerful weapons does not make it disproportionate.
On November 11 2023 02:32 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2023 00:56 JimmiC wrote:On November 10 2023 23:39 Magic Powers wrote:
I wouldn't be able to point out a single person in this thread who'd fit the description of a Hamas apologist. Then you are extremely generous with your outlook. When someone starts claiming their genocidal ideology, talk, actions are not. Asks if they are justified. Starts to beat around the bush about the IDF doing the Hamas killing in spite of them taking credit, all the evidence including the self shot body cam and cell cam videos. When people are making claims about how the “west” treats Palestine without seemingly any realization that none of the Muslim or “Eastern” countries recognized Palestine before. I’m not sure if it is that people are not in tune to the left dog whistle’s the way they are to the right, maybe because they can not believe someone that shares their values in many ways can differ so hard on other things. But for me there is posters here who dog whistle’s have crossed into such blatant territory that it is impossible to ignore. I'm open to being educated about left-wing dog whistling. Is HasanAbi one of the people doing it? Can you also give an example of a comment in this thread? About recognition of a/the State of Palestine: I'm reading that Egypt has in fact recognized it, but the US has not. Neither have Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Mexico or the United Kingdom (Source: Wikipedia). You are right that other Middle Eastern countries have not recognized the State of Palestine, but that can be explained by the tensions with Israel. Why single out the ME (ignoring Egypt?) if Europe and the US aren't taking a strong stance? 138 of the 193 states in the UN apparently fully recognize Palestine. What about the rest?
I'm not an expert on dog whistles but I've seen anti Semites do the following at least:
1. From the river to the sea chant
2. Pulling out the bingo book of war crimes whenever Israel does something and instantly labelling everything a war crime even if we don't even have nearly enough information to establish such a fact
3. Hiding behind 'criticism of Israel is not anti semitism'. True, but anti Semites also use this to hide their anti semitism just like racists say that being anti immigration does not make you racist.
As for people in the thread I don't know if anyone is anti semetic. I'm working off the assumption that everybody has some decency and is not anti semetic. But from the top of my head these are some prominent people/organisations that are anti semetic in my view:
Corbyn's labour had issues with anti semitism, Tlaib, Melenchon, two Dutch parties in parliament used from the river to the sea chant and one of them has one Palestine with the Palestinian flag in their party programme.
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Northern Ireland23843 Posts
On November 12 2023 10:26 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2023 21:03 Godwrath wrote:I said that people denying that there is a ethnical cleanse going on are genocide enablers, not that Israel is commiting genocide. I stand by it, i don't think it's that confusing since most of the time it's a two step ladder, and at the time, people were discussing about letting Israel bomb the hell out of Gaza as a reasonable response "to stop Hamas", yourself included. The implication of calling others genocide enablers is pretty clear. It also shows the double standards of some in the thread. Calling others genocide enablers is not called out but anti semitism is. As for the bombing I've already explained how removing them from power in Gaza is legal under international law. That Israel uses more powerful weapons does not make it disproportionate. Show nested quote +On November 11 2023 02:32 Magic Powers wrote:On November 11 2023 00:56 JimmiC wrote:On November 10 2023 23:39 Magic Powers wrote:
I wouldn't be able to point out a single person in this thread who'd fit the description of a Hamas apologist. Then you are extremely generous with your outlook. When someone starts claiming their genocidal ideology, talk, actions are not. Asks if they are justified. Starts to beat around the bush about the IDF doing the Hamas killing in spite of them taking credit, all the evidence including the self shot body cam and cell cam videos. When people are making claims about how the “west” treats Palestine without seemingly any realization that none of the Muslim or “Eastern” countries recognized Palestine before. I’m not sure if it is that people are not in tune to the left dog whistle’s the way they are to the right, maybe because they can not believe someone that shares their values in many ways can differ so hard on other things. But for me there is posters here who dog whistle’s have crossed into such blatant territory that it is impossible to ignore. I'm open to being educated about left-wing dog whistling. Is HasanAbi one of the people doing it? Can you also give an example of a comment in this thread? About recognition of a/the State of Palestine: I'm reading that Egypt has in fact recognized it, but the US has not. Neither have Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Mexico or the United Kingdom (Source: Wikipedia). You are right that other Middle Eastern countries have not recognized the State of Palestine, but that can be explained by the tensions with Israel. Why single out the ME (ignoring Egypt?) if Europe and the US aren't taking a strong stance? 138 of the 193 states in the UN apparently fully recognize Palestine. What about the rest? I'm not an expert on dog whistles but I've seen anti Semites do the following at least: 1. From the river to the sea chant 2. Pulling out the bingo book of war crimes whenever Israel does something and instantly labelling everything a war crime even if we don't even have nearly enough information to establish such a fact 3. Hiding behind 'criticism of Israel is not anti semitism'. True, but anti Semites also use this to hide their anti semitism just like racists say that being anti immigration does not make you racist. As for people in the thread I don't know if anyone is anti semetic. I'm working off the assumption that everybody has some decency and is not anti semetic. But from the top of my head these are some prominent people/organisations that are anti semetic in my view: Corbyn's labour had issues with anti semitism, Tlaib, Melenchon, two Dutch parties in parliament used from the river to the sea chant and one of them has one Palestine with the Palestinian flag in their party programme.
Luckily Labour got purged of their anti-Semitic elements so they can unequivocally support Israel now, that’s much better eh?
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I think it's becoming incredibly important to call out Netanjahu on his double standard. He wants to get away with everything, while he doesn't want anyone else to get away with anything. It's a power play, not justice.
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On November 12 2023 10:26 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2023 21:03 Godwrath wrote:I said that people denying that there is a ethnical cleanse going on are genocide enablers, not that Israel is commiting genocide. I stand by it, i don't think it's that confusing since most of the time it's a two step ladder, and at the time, people were discussing about letting Israel bomb the hell out of Gaza as a reasonable response "to stop Hamas", yourself included. The implication of calling others genocide enablers is pretty clear. It also shows the double standards of some in the thread. Calling others genocide enablers is not called out but anti semitism is. As for the bombing I've already explained how removing them from power in Gaza is legal under international law. That Israel uses more powerful weapons does not make it disproportionate. Show nested quote +On November 11 2023 02:32 Magic Powers wrote:On November 11 2023 00:56 JimmiC wrote:On November 10 2023 23:39 Magic Powers wrote:
I wouldn't be able to point out a single person in this thread who'd fit the description of a Hamas apologist. Then you are extremely generous with your outlook. When someone starts claiming their genocidal ideology, talk, actions are not. Asks if they are justified. Starts to beat around the bush about the IDF doing the Hamas killing in spite of them taking credit, all the evidence including the self shot body cam and cell cam videos. When people are making claims about how the “west” treats Palestine without seemingly any realization that none of the Muslim or “Eastern” countries recognized Palestine before. I’m not sure if it is that people are not in tune to the left dog whistle’s the way they are to the right, maybe because they can not believe someone that shares their values in many ways can differ so hard on other things. But for me there is posters here who dog whistle’s have crossed into such blatant territory that it is impossible to ignore. I'm open to being educated about left-wing dog whistling. Is HasanAbi one of the people doing it? Can you also give an example of a comment in this thread? About recognition of a/the State of Palestine: I'm reading that Egypt has in fact recognized it, but the US has not. Neither have Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Mexico or the United Kingdom (Source: Wikipedia). You are right that other Middle Eastern countries have not recognized the State of Palestine, but that can be explained by the tensions with Israel. Why single out the ME (ignoring Egypt?) if Europe and the US aren't taking a strong stance? 138 of the 193 states in the UN apparently fully recognize Palestine. What about the rest? I'm not an expert on dog whistles but I've seen anti Semites do the following at least: 1. From the river to the sea chant 2. Pulling out the bingo book of war crimes whenever Israel does something and instantly labelling everything a war crime even if we don't even have nearly enough information to establish such a fact 3. Hiding behind 'criticism of Israel is not anti semitism'. True, but anti Semites also use this to hide their anti semitism just like racists say that being anti immigration does not make you racist. As for people in the thread I don't know if anyone is anti semetic. I'm working off the assumption that everybody has some decency and is not anti semetic. But from the top of my head these are some prominent people/organisations that are anti semetic in my view: Corbyn's labour had issues with anti semitism, Tlaib, Melenchon, two Dutch parties in parliament used from the river to the sea chant and one of them has one Palestine with the Palestinian flag in their party programme.
This bombardment of Gaza is an atrocity. Call it what you want, war crime or not, it hardly makes a difference. I don't see how such a disproportionate level of aggression can be justified. And that's on top of Israel having a history of oppression.
I'd like people to imagine a hypothetical. Imagine Germany doing something of this nature. Oppression of an ethnic group through Apartheid, displacement, imprisonment and starvation. What would the world say? We all know what the headlines would say.
Regarding your examples of dog whistling, I can only agree with the first one. That can be an indicator. Point two and three don't qualify as dog whistling.
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On November 12 2023 17:05 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2023 10:26 RvB wrote:On November 10 2023 21:03 Godwrath wrote:I said that people denying that there is a ethnical cleanse going on are genocide enablers, not that Israel is commiting genocide. I stand by it, i don't think it's that confusing since most of the time it's a two step ladder, and at the time, people were discussing about letting Israel bomb the hell out of Gaza as a reasonable response "to stop Hamas", yourself included. The implication of calling others genocide enablers is pretty clear. It also shows the double standards of some in the thread. Calling others genocide enablers is not called out but anti semitism is. As for the bombing I've already explained how removing them from power in Gaza is legal under international law. That Israel uses more powerful weapons does not make it disproportionate. On November 11 2023 02:32 Magic Powers wrote:On November 11 2023 00:56 JimmiC wrote:On November 10 2023 23:39 Magic Powers wrote:
I wouldn't be able to point out a single person in this thread who'd fit the description of a Hamas apologist. Then you are extremely generous with your outlook. When someone starts claiming their genocidal ideology, talk, actions are not. Asks if they are justified. Starts to beat around the bush about the IDF doing the Hamas killing in spite of them taking credit, all the evidence including the self shot body cam and cell cam videos. When people are making claims about how the “west” treats Palestine without seemingly any realization that none of the Muslim or “Eastern” countries recognized Palestine before. I’m not sure if it is that people are not in tune to the left dog whistle’s the way they are to the right, maybe because they can not believe someone that shares their values in many ways can differ so hard on other things. But for me there is posters here who dog whistle’s have crossed into such blatant territory that it is impossible to ignore. I'm open to being educated about left-wing dog whistling. Is HasanAbi one of the people doing it? Can you also give an example of a comment in this thread? About recognition of a/the State of Palestine: I'm reading that Egypt has in fact recognized it, but the US has not. Neither have Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Mexico or the United Kingdom (Source: Wikipedia). You are right that other Middle Eastern countries have not recognized the State of Palestine, but that can be explained by the tensions with Israel. Why single out the ME (ignoring Egypt?) if Europe and the US aren't taking a strong stance? 138 of the 193 states in the UN apparently fully recognize Palestine. What about the rest? I'm not an expert on dog whistles but I've seen anti Semites do the following at least: 1. From the river to the sea chant 2. Pulling out the bingo book of war crimes whenever Israel does something and instantly labelling everything a war crime even if we don't even have nearly enough information to establish such a fact 3. Hiding behind 'criticism of Israel is not anti semitism'. True, but anti Semites also use this to hide their anti semitism just like racists say that being anti immigration does not make you racist. As for people in the thread I don't know if anyone is anti semetic. I'm working off the assumption that everybody has some decency and is not anti semetic. But from the top of my head these are some prominent people/organisations that are anti semetic in my view: Corbyn's labour had issues with anti semitism, Tlaib, Melenchon, two Dutch parties in parliament used from the river to the sea chant and one of them has one Palestine with the Palestinian flag in their party programme. Luckily Labour got purged of their anti-Semitic elements so they can unequivocally support Israel now, that’s much better eh?
I don't care who the Labour party supports. I gave an example of an organisation that had problems with anti semitism.
On November 12 2023 18:25 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2023 10:26 RvB wrote:On November 10 2023 21:03 Godwrath wrote:I said that people denying that there is a ethnical cleanse going on are genocide enablers, not that Israel is commiting genocide. I stand by it, i don't think it's that confusing since most of the time it's a two step ladder, and at the time, people were discussing about letting Israel bomb the hell out of Gaza as a reasonable response "to stop Hamas", yourself included. The implication of calling others genocide enablers is pretty clear. It also shows the double standards of some in the thread. Calling others genocide enablers is not called out but anti semitism is. As for the bombing I've already explained how removing them from power in Gaza is legal under international law. That Israel uses more powerful weapons does not make it disproportionate. On November 11 2023 02:32 Magic Powers wrote:On November 11 2023 00:56 JimmiC wrote:On November 10 2023 23:39 Magic Powers wrote:
I wouldn't be able to point out a single person in this thread who'd fit the description of a Hamas apologist. Then you are extremely generous with your outlook. When someone starts claiming their genocidal ideology, talk, actions are not. Asks if they are justified. Starts to beat around the bush about the IDF doing the Hamas killing in spite of them taking credit, all the evidence including the self shot body cam and cell cam videos. When people are making claims about how the “west” treats Palestine without seemingly any realization that none of the Muslim or “Eastern” countries recognized Palestine before. I’m not sure if it is that people are not in tune to the left dog whistle’s the way they are to the right, maybe because they can not believe someone that shares their values in many ways can differ so hard on other things. But for me there is posters here who dog whistle’s have crossed into such blatant territory that it is impossible to ignore. I'm open to being educated about left-wing dog whistling. Is HasanAbi one of the people doing it? Can you also give an example of a comment in this thread? About recognition of a/the State of Palestine: I'm reading that Egypt has in fact recognized it, but the US has not. Neither have Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Mexico or the United Kingdom (Source: Wikipedia). You are right that other Middle Eastern countries have not recognized the State of Palestine, but that can be explained by the tensions with Israel. Why single out the ME (ignoring Egypt?) if Europe and the US aren't taking a strong stance? 138 of the 193 states in the UN apparently fully recognize Palestine. What about the rest? I'm not an expert on dog whistles but I've seen anti Semites do the following at least: 1. From the river to the sea chant 2. Pulling out the bingo book of war crimes whenever Israel does something and instantly labelling everything a war crime even if we don't even have nearly enough information to establish such a fact 3. Hiding behind 'criticism of Israel is not anti semitism'. True, but anti Semites also use this to hide their anti semitism just like racists say that being anti immigration does not make you racist. As for people in the thread I don't know if anyone is anti semetic. I'm working off the assumption that everybody has some decency and is not anti semetic. But from the top of my head these are some prominent people/organisations that are anti semetic in my view: Corbyn's labour had issues with anti semitism, Tlaib, Melenchon, two Dutch parties in parliament used from the river to the sea chant and one of them has one Palestine with the Palestinian flag in their party programme. This bombardment of Gaza is an atrocity. Call it what you want, war crime or not, it hardly makes a difference. I don't see how such a disproportionate level of aggression can be justified. And that's on top of Israel having a history of oppression. I'd like people to imagine a hypothetical. Imagine Germany doing something of this nature. Oppression of an ethnic group through Apartheid, displacement, imprisonment and starvation. What would the world say? We all know what the headlines would say. Regarding your examples of dog whistling, I can only agree with the first one. That can be an indicator. Point two and three don't qualify as dog whistling.
It makes a difference. You can't see how it can be justified because you don't engage with the arguments put forth by the opposing side.
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Northern Ireland23843 Posts
On November 12 2023 19:17 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2023 17:05 WombaT wrote:On November 12 2023 10:26 RvB wrote:On November 10 2023 21:03 Godwrath wrote:I said that people denying that there is a ethnical cleanse going on are genocide enablers, not that Israel is commiting genocide. I stand by it, i don't think it's that confusing since most of the time it's a two step ladder, and at the time, people were discussing about letting Israel bomb the hell out of Gaza as a reasonable response "to stop Hamas", yourself included. The implication of calling others genocide enablers is pretty clear. It also shows the double standards of some in the thread. Calling others genocide enablers is not called out but anti semitism is. As for the bombing I've already explained how removing them from power in Gaza is legal under international law. That Israel uses more powerful weapons does not make it disproportionate. On November 11 2023 02:32 Magic Powers wrote:On November 11 2023 00:56 JimmiC wrote:On November 10 2023 23:39 Magic Powers wrote:
I wouldn't be able to point out a single person in this thread who'd fit the description of a Hamas apologist. Then you are extremely generous with your outlook. When someone starts claiming their genocidal ideology, talk, actions are not. Asks if they are justified. Starts to beat around the bush about the IDF doing the Hamas killing in spite of them taking credit, all the evidence including the self shot body cam and cell cam videos. When people are making claims about how the “west” treats Palestine without seemingly any realization that none of the Muslim or “Eastern” countries recognized Palestine before. I’m not sure if it is that people are not in tune to the left dog whistle’s the way they are to the right, maybe because they can not believe someone that shares their values in many ways can differ so hard on other things. But for me there is posters here who dog whistle’s have crossed into such blatant territory that it is impossible to ignore. I'm open to being educated about left-wing dog whistling. Is HasanAbi one of the people doing it? Can you also give an example of a comment in this thread? About recognition of a/the State of Palestine: I'm reading that Egypt has in fact recognized it, but the US has not. Neither have Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Mexico or the United Kingdom (Source: Wikipedia). You are right that other Middle Eastern countries have not recognized the State of Palestine, but that can be explained by the tensions with Israel. Why single out the ME (ignoring Egypt?) if Europe and the US aren't taking a strong stance? 138 of the 193 states in the UN apparently fully recognize Palestine. What about the rest? I'm not an expert on dog whistles but I've seen anti Semites do the following at least: 1. From the river to the sea chant 2. Pulling out the bingo book of war crimes whenever Israel does something and instantly labelling everything a war crime even if we don't even have nearly enough information to establish such a fact 3. Hiding behind 'criticism of Israel is not anti semitism'. True, but anti Semites also use this to hide their anti semitism just like racists say that being anti immigration does not make you racist. As for people in the thread I don't know if anyone is anti semetic. I'm working off the assumption that everybody has some decency and is not anti semetic. But from the top of my head these are some prominent people/organisations that are anti semetic in my view: Corbyn's labour had issues with anti semitism, Tlaib, Melenchon, two Dutch parties in parliament used from the river to the sea chant and one of them has one Palestine with the Palestinian flag in their party programme. Luckily Labour got purged of their anti-Semitic elements so they can unequivocally support Israel now, that’s much better eh? I don't care who the Labour party supports. I gave an example of an organisation that had problems with anti semitism. Show nested quote +On November 12 2023 18:25 Magic Powers wrote:On November 12 2023 10:26 RvB wrote:On November 10 2023 21:03 Godwrath wrote:I said that people denying that there is a ethnical cleanse going on are genocide enablers, not that Israel is commiting genocide. I stand by it, i don't think it's that confusing since most of the time it's a two step ladder, and at the time, people were discussing about letting Israel bomb the hell out of Gaza as a reasonable response "to stop Hamas", yourself included. The implication of calling others genocide enablers is pretty clear. It also shows the double standards of some in the thread. Calling others genocide enablers is not called out but anti semitism is. As for the bombing I've already explained how removing them from power in Gaza is legal under international law. That Israel uses more powerful weapons does not make it disproportionate. On November 11 2023 02:32 Magic Powers wrote:On November 11 2023 00:56 JimmiC wrote:On November 10 2023 23:39 Magic Powers wrote:
I wouldn't be able to point out a single person in this thread who'd fit the description of a Hamas apologist. Then you are extremely generous with your outlook. When someone starts claiming their genocidal ideology, talk, actions are not. Asks if they are justified. Starts to beat around the bush about the IDF doing the Hamas killing in spite of them taking credit, all the evidence including the self shot body cam and cell cam videos. When people are making claims about how the “west” treats Palestine without seemingly any realization that none of the Muslim or “Eastern” countries recognized Palestine before. I’m not sure if it is that people are not in tune to the left dog whistle’s the way they are to the right, maybe because they can not believe someone that shares their values in many ways can differ so hard on other things. But for me there is posters here who dog whistle’s have crossed into such blatant territory that it is impossible to ignore. I'm open to being educated about left-wing dog whistling. Is HasanAbi one of the people doing it? Can you also give an example of a comment in this thread? About recognition of a/the State of Palestine: I'm reading that Egypt has in fact recognized it, but the US has not. Neither have Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Mexico or the United Kingdom (Source: Wikipedia). You are right that other Middle Eastern countries have not recognized the State of Palestine, but that can be explained by the tensions with Israel. Why single out the ME (ignoring Egypt?) if Europe and the US aren't taking a strong stance? 138 of the 193 states in the UN apparently fully recognize Palestine. What about the rest? I'm not an expert on dog whistles but I've seen anti Semites do the following at least: 1. From the river to the sea chant 2. Pulling out the bingo book of war crimes whenever Israel does something and instantly labelling everything a war crime even if we don't even have nearly enough information to establish such a fact 3. Hiding behind 'criticism of Israel is not anti semitism'. True, but anti Semites also use this to hide their anti semitism just like racists say that being anti immigration does not make you racist. As for people in the thread I don't know if anyone is anti semetic. I'm working off the assumption that everybody has some decency and is not anti semetic. But from the top of my head these are some prominent people/organisations that are anti semetic in my view: Corbyn's labour had issues with anti semitism, Tlaib, Melenchon, two Dutch parties in parliament used from the river to the sea chant and one of them has one Palestine with the Palestinian flag in their party programme. This bombardment of Gaza is an atrocity. Call it what you want, war crime or not, it hardly makes a difference. I don't see how such a disproportionate level of aggression can be justified. And that's on top of Israel having a history of oppression. I'd like people to imagine a hypothetical. Imagine Germany doing something of this nature. Oppression of an ethnic group through Apartheid, displacement, imprisonment and starvation. What would the world say? We all know what the headlines would say. Regarding your examples of dog whistling, I can only agree with the first one. That can be an indicator. Point two and three don't qualify as dog whistling. It makes a difference. You can't see how it can be justified because you don't engage with the arguments put forth by the opposing side.
People do care because the perception exists that a Labour that is not anti-Semitic is, coincidentally much more overtly pro-Israel. It’s that age-old conflation of the two.
Although from what I saw of various (mostly low level local councillors) who were expelled from the party had done things I’d absolutely consider anti-Semitic. Unlike some I don’t consider it a meritless witch hunt by any means.
When put side by side with an actual ruling party whose Home Secretary especially routinely racially dog whistles, it’s a tad odd but on principle I can’t really object to getting rid of people with genuinely discriminatory views.
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On November 12 2023 19:17 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2023 17:05 WombaT wrote:On November 12 2023 10:26 RvB wrote:On November 10 2023 21:03 Godwrath wrote:I said that people denying that there is a ethnical cleanse going on are genocide enablers, not that Israel is commiting genocide. I stand by it, i don't think it's that confusing since most of the time it's a two step ladder, and at the time, people were discussing about letting Israel bomb the hell out of Gaza as a reasonable response "to stop Hamas", yourself included. The implication of calling others genocide enablers is pretty clear. It also shows the double standards of some in the thread. Calling others genocide enablers is not called out but anti semitism is. As for the bombing I've already explained how removing them from power in Gaza is legal under international law. That Israel uses more powerful weapons does not make it disproportionate. On November 11 2023 02:32 Magic Powers wrote:On November 11 2023 00:56 JimmiC wrote:On November 10 2023 23:39 Magic Powers wrote:
I wouldn't be able to point out a single person in this thread who'd fit the description of a Hamas apologist. Then you are extremely generous with your outlook. When someone starts claiming their genocidal ideology, talk, actions are not. Asks if they are justified. Starts to beat around the bush about the IDF doing the Hamas killing in spite of them taking credit, all the evidence including the self shot body cam and cell cam videos. When people are making claims about how the “west” treats Palestine without seemingly any realization that none of the Muslim or “Eastern” countries recognized Palestine before. I’m not sure if it is that people are not in tune to the left dog whistle’s the way they are to the right, maybe because they can not believe someone that shares their values in many ways can differ so hard on other things. But for me there is posters here who dog whistle’s have crossed into such blatant territory that it is impossible to ignore. I'm open to being educated about left-wing dog whistling. Is HasanAbi one of the people doing it? Can you also give an example of a comment in this thread? About recognition of a/the State of Palestine: I'm reading that Egypt has in fact recognized it, but the US has not. Neither have Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Mexico or the United Kingdom (Source: Wikipedia). You are right that other Middle Eastern countries have not recognized the State of Palestine, but that can be explained by the tensions with Israel. Why single out the ME (ignoring Egypt?) if Europe and the US aren't taking a strong stance? 138 of the 193 states in the UN apparently fully recognize Palestine. What about the rest? I'm not an expert on dog whistles but I've seen anti Semites do the following at least: 1. From the river to the sea chant 2. Pulling out the bingo book of war crimes whenever Israel does something and instantly labelling everything a war crime even if we don't even have nearly enough information to establish such a fact 3. Hiding behind 'criticism of Israel is not anti semitism'. True, but anti Semites also use this to hide their anti semitism just like racists say that being anti immigration does not make you racist. As for people in the thread I don't know if anyone is anti semetic. I'm working off the assumption that everybody has some decency and is not anti semetic. But from the top of my head these are some prominent people/organisations that are anti semetic in my view: Corbyn's labour had issues with anti semitism, Tlaib, Melenchon, two Dutch parties in parliament used from the river to the sea chant and one of them has one Palestine with the Palestinian flag in their party programme. Luckily Labour got purged of their anti-Semitic elements so they can unequivocally support Israel now, that’s much better eh? I don't care who the Labour party supports. I gave an example of an organisation that had problems with anti semitism. Show nested quote +On November 12 2023 18:25 Magic Powers wrote:On November 12 2023 10:26 RvB wrote:On November 10 2023 21:03 Godwrath wrote:I said that people denying that there is a ethnical cleanse going on are genocide enablers, not that Israel is commiting genocide. I stand by it, i don't think it's that confusing since most of the time it's a two step ladder, and at the time, people were discussing about letting Israel bomb the hell out of Gaza as a reasonable response "to stop Hamas", yourself included. The implication of calling others genocide enablers is pretty clear. It also shows the double standards of some in the thread. Calling others genocide enablers is not called out but anti semitism is. As for the bombing I've already explained how removing them from power in Gaza is legal under international law. That Israel uses more powerful weapons does not make it disproportionate. On November 11 2023 02:32 Magic Powers wrote:On November 11 2023 00:56 JimmiC wrote:On November 10 2023 23:39 Magic Powers wrote:
I wouldn't be able to point out a single person in this thread who'd fit the description of a Hamas apologist. Then you are extremely generous with your outlook. When someone starts claiming their genocidal ideology, talk, actions are not. Asks if they are justified. Starts to beat around the bush about the IDF doing the Hamas killing in spite of them taking credit, all the evidence including the self shot body cam and cell cam videos. When people are making claims about how the “west” treats Palestine without seemingly any realization that none of the Muslim or “Eastern” countries recognized Palestine before. I’m not sure if it is that people are not in tune to the left dog whistle’s the way they are to the right, maybe because they can not believe someone that shares their values in many ways can differ so hard on other things. But for me there is posters here who dog whistle’s have crossed into such blatant territory that it is impossible to ignore. I'm open to being educated about left-wing dog whistling. Is HasanAbi one of the people doing it? Can you also give an example of a comment in this thread? About recognition of a/the State of Palestine: I'm reading that Egypt has in fact recognized it, but the US has not. Neither have Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Mexico or the United Kingdom (Source: Wikipedia). You are right that other Middle Eastern countries have not recognized the State of Palestine, but that can be explained by the tensions with Israel. Why single out the ME (ignoring Egypt?) if Europe and the US aren't taking a strong stance? 138 of the 193 states in the UN apparently fully recognize Palestine. What about the rest? I'm not an expert on dog whistles but I've seen anti Semites do the following at least: 1. From the river to the sea chant 2. Pulling out the bingo book of war crimes whenever Israel does something and instantly labelling everything a war crime even if we don't even have nearly enough information to establish such a fact 3. Hiding behind 'criticism of Israel is not anti semitism'. True, but anti Semites also use this to hide their anti semitism just like racists say that being anti immigration does not make you racist. As for people in the thread I don't know if anyone is anti semetic. I'm working off the assumption that everybody has some decency and is not anti semetic. But from the top of my head these are some prominent people/organisations that are anti semetic in my view: Corbyn's labour had issues with anti semitism, Tlaib, Melenchon, two Dutch parties in parliament used from the river to the sea chant and one of them has one Palestine with the Palestinian flag in their party programme. This bombardment of Gaza is an atrocity. Call it what you want, war crime or not, it hardly makes a difference. I don't see how such a disproportionate level of aggression can be justified. And that's on top of Israel having a history of oppression. I'd like people to imagine a hypothetical. Imagine Germany doing something of this nature. Oppression of an ethnic group through Apartheid, displacement, imprisonment and starvation. What would the world say? We all know what the headlines would say. Regarding your examples of dog whistling, I can only agree with the first one. That can be an indicator. Point two and three don't qualify as dog whistling. It makes a difference. You can't see how it can be justified because you don't engage with the arguments put forth by the opposing side.
Which argument that justifies the bombardment has not yet been refuted? We've been discussing this for many pages and I can't remember anyone being able to explain why so many civilian deaths are required or acceptable. No one has been able to explain why Israel can't leave it at having stabilized and secured its borders after October 7. Far from it, we've only seen mounting evidence that the counter measures are over the top, that they're only going to lead to further oppression of Palestinians, and that the total lives saved vs lives lost of innocent people speaks heavily against the bombardment.
Please, do engage with these points, I'll gladly continue the discussion.
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On November 12 2023 22:56 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2023 19:17 RvB wrote:On November 12 2023 17:05 WombaT wrote:On November 12 2023 10:26 RvB wrote:On November 10 2023 21:03 Godwrath wrote:I said that people denying that there is a ethnical cleanse going on are genocide enablers, not that Israel is commiting genocide. I stand by it, i don't think it's that confusing since most of the time it's a two step ladder, and at the time, people were discussing about letting Israel bomb the hell out of Gaza as a reasonable response "to stop Hamas", yourself included. The implication of calling others genocide enablers is pretty clear. It also shows the double standards of some in the thread. Calling others genocide enablers is not called out but anti semitism is. As for the bombing I've already explained how removing them from power in Gaza is legal under international law. That Israel uses more powerful weapons does not make it disproportionate. On November 11 2023 02:32 Magic Powers wrote:On November 11 2023 00:56 JimmiC wrote:On November 10 2023 23:39 Magic Powers wrote:
I wouldn't be able to point out a single person in this thread who'd fit the description of a Hamas apologist. Then you are extremely generous with your outlook. When someone starts claiming their genocidal ideology, talk, actions are not. Asks if they are justified. Starts to beat around the bush about the IDF doing the Hamas killing in spite of them taking credit, all the evidence including the self shot body cam and cell cam videos. When people are making claims about how the “west” treats Palestine without seemingly any realization that none of the Muslim or “Eastern” countries recognized Palestine before. I’m not sure if it is that people are not in tune to the left dog whistle’s the way they are to the right, maybe because they can not believe someone that shares their values in many ways can differ so hard on other things. But for me there is posters here who dog whistle’s have crossed into such blatant territory that it is impossible to ignore. I'm open to being educated about left-wing dog whistling. Is HasanAbi one of the people doing it? Can you also give an example of a comment in this thread? About recognition of a/the State of Palestine: I'm reading that Egypt has in fact recognized it, but the US has not. Neither have Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Mexico or the United Kingdom (Source: Wikipedia). You are right that other Middle Eastern countries have not recognized the State of Palestine, but that can be explained by the tensions with Israel. Why single out the ME (ignoring Egypt?) if Europe and the US aren't taking a strong stance? 138 of the 193 states in the UN apparently fully recognize Palestine. What about the rest? I'm not an expert on dog whistles but I've seen anti Semites do the following at least: 1. From the river to the sea chant 2. Pulling out the bingo book of war crimes whenever Israel does something and instantly labelling everything a war crime even if we don't even have nearly enough information to establish such a fact 3. Hiding behind 'criticism of Israel is not anti semitism'. True, but anti Semites also use this to hide their anti semitism just like racists say that being anti immigration does not make you racist. As for people in the thread I don't know if anyone is anti semetic. I'm working off the assumption that everybody has some decency and is not anti semetic. But from the top of my head these are some prominent people/organisations that are anti semetic in my view: Corbyn's labour had issues with anti semitism, Tlaib, Melenchon, two Dutch parties in parliament used from the river to the sea chant and one of them has one Palestine with the Palestinian flag in their party programme. Luckily Labour got purged of their anti-Semitic elements so they can unequivocally support Israel now, that’s much better eh? I don't care who the Labour party supports. I gave an example of an organisation that had problems with anti semitism. On November 12 2023 18:25 Magic Powers wrote:On November 12 2023 10:26 RvB wrote:On November 10 2023 21:03 Godwrath wrote:I said that people denying that there is a ethnical cleanse going on are genocide enablers, not that Israel is commiting genocide. I stand by it, i don't think it's that confusing since most of the time it's a two step ladder, and at the time, people were discussing about letting Israel bomb the hell out of Gaza as a reasonable response "to stop Hamas", yourself included. The implication of calling others genocide enablers is pretty clear. It also shows the double standards of some in the thread. Calling others genocide enablers is not called out but anti semitism is. As for the bombing I've already explained how removing them from power in Gaza is legal under international law. That Israel uses more powerful weapons does not make it disproportionate. On November 11 2023 02:32 Magic Powers wrote:On November 11 2023 00:56 JimmiC wrote:On November 10 2023 23:39 Magic Powers wrote:
I wouldn't be able to point out a single person in this thread who'd fit the description of a Hamas apologist. Then you are extremely generous with your outlook. When someone starts claiming their genocidal ideology, talk, actions are not. Asks if they are justified. Starts to beat around the bush about the IDF doing the Hamas killing in spite of them taking credit, all the evidence including the self shot body cam and cell cam videos. When people are making claims about how the “west” treats Palestine without seemingly any realization that none of the Muslim or “Eastern” countries recognized Palestine before. I’m not sure if it is that people are not in tune to the left dog whistle’s the way they are to the right, maybe because they can not believe someone that shares their values in many ways can differ so hard on other things. But for me there is posters here who dog whistle’s have crossed into such blatant territory that it is impossible to ignore. I'm open to being educated about left-wing dog whistling. Is HasanAbi one of the people doing it? Can you also give an example of a comment in this thread? About recognition of a/the State of Palestine: I'm reading that Egypt has in fact recognized it, but the US has not. Neither have Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Mexico or the United Kingdom (Source: Wikipedia). You are right that other Middle Eastern countries have not recognized the State of Palestine, but that can be explained by the tensions with Israel. Why single out the ME (ignoring Egypt?) if Europe and the US aren't taking a strong stance? 138 of the 193 states in the UN apparently fully recognize Palestine. What about the rest? I'm not an expert on dog whistles but I've seen anti Semites do the following at least: 1. From the river to the sea chant 2. Pulling out the bingo book of war crimes whenever Israel does something and instantly labelling everything a war crime even if we don't even have nearly enough information to establish such a fact 3. Hiding behind 'criticism of Israel is not anti semitism'. True, but anti Semites also use this to hide their anti semitism just like racists say that being anti immigration does not make you racist. As for people in the thread I don't know if anyone is anti semetic. I'm working off the assumption that everybody has some decency and is not anti semetic. But from the top of my head these are some prominent people/organisations that are anti semetic in my view: Corbyn's labour had issues with anti semitism, Tlaib, Melenchon, two Dutch parties in parliament used from the river to the sea chant and one of them has one Palestine with the Palestinian flag in their party programme. This bombardment of Gaza is an atrocity. Call it what you want, war crime or not, it hardly makes a difference. I don't see how such a disproportionate level of aggression can be justified. And that's on top of Israel having a history of oppression. I'd like people to imagine a hypothetical. Imagine Germany doing something of this nature. Oppression of an ethnic group through Apartheid, displacement, imprisonment and starvation. What would the world say? We all know what the headlines would say. Regarding your examples of dog whistling, I can only agree with the first one. That can be an indicator. Point two and three don't qualify as dog whistling. It makes a difference. You can't see how it can be justified because you don't engage with the arguments put forth by the opposing side. Which argument that justifies the bombardment has not yet been refuted? We've been discussing this for many pages and I can't remember anyone being able to explain why so many civilian deaths are required or acceptable. No one has been able to explain why Israel can't leave it at having stabilized and secured its borders after October 7. Far from it, we've only seen mounting evidence that the counter measures are over the top, that they're only going to lead to further oppression of Palestinians, and that the total lives saved vs lives lost of innocent people speaks heavily against the bombardment. Please, do engage with these points, I'll gladly continue the discussion.
Israel does not have a moral imperative to prioritize the lives of Gaza over the lives of Israel. If Israel can safely assume killing as many members of Hamas as possible and taking away their control of Gaza will decrease the total of Israelis killed, Israel has incentive to do that.
Once someone offers a method for to deprive Hamas of land, that argument is entirely wiped out. Until there is no alternative method of taking away Hamas’s land, your thought experiment fails to account for the fact that without Hamas getting tossed in ditches, Israelis die no matter what. Your “secure their borders after October 7” is dishonestly pretending it’s that simple or that it can be viewed equivalently to just straight up taking the land from Hamas. It’s not effective, it’s not equivalent. It’s impossible to pretend there is equivalent risk to just let the terrorists keep land and keep living. Israel will secure their border or whatever you’re saying with or without killing a bunch of Hamas trash. But it’s even better with all of them dead and their little dystopian ruling government toppled.
They will do 2 things. You are saying they ought to do 1 instead. The second part is a clear net positive for Israeli lives.
Edit: For the sake of being as concise as possible: the moment when your argument fails to be valid is when you falsely claim Israel can decide to be equally protected from Hamas attacks by “securing their border”. They can’t. It’s not a real situation.
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On November 13 2023 00:23 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2023 22:56 Magic Powers wrote:On November 12 2023 19:17 RvB wrote:On November 12 2023 17:05 WombaT wrote:On November 12 2023 10:26 RvB wrote:On November 10 2023 21:03 Godwrath wrote:I said that people denying that there is a ethnical cleanse going on are genocide enablers, not that Israel is commiting genocide. I stand by it, i don't think it's that confusing since most of the time it's a two step ladder, and at the time, people were discussing about letting Israel bomb the hell out of Gaza as a reasonable response "to stop Hamas", yourself included. The implication of calling others genocide enablers is pretty clear. It also shows the double standards of some in the thread. Calling others genocide enablers is not called out but anti semitism is. As for the bombing I've already explained how removing them from power in Gaza is legal under international law. That Israel uses more powerful weapons does not make it disproportionate. On November 11 2023 02:32 Magic Powers wrote:On November 11 2023 00:56 JimmiC wrote:On November 10 2023 23:39 Magic Powers wrote:
I wouldn't be able to point out a single person in this thread who'd fit the description of a Hamas apologist. Then you are extremely generous with your outlook. When someone starts claiming their genocidal ideology, talk, actions are not. Asks if they are justified. Starts to beat around the bush about the IDF doing the Hamas killing in spite of them taking credit, all the evidence including the self shot body cam and cell cam videos. When people are making claims about how the “west” treats Palestine without seemingly any realization that none of the Muslim or “Eastern” countries recognized Palestine before. I’m not sure if it is that people are not in tune to the left dog whistle’s the way they are to the right, maybe because they can not believe someone that shares their values in many ways can differ so hard on other things. But for me there is posters here who dog whistle’s have crossed into such blatant territory that it is impossible to ignore. I'm open to being educated about left-wing dog whistling. Is HasanAbi one of the people doing it? Can you also give an example of a comment in this thread? About recognition of a/the State of Palestine: I'm reading that Egypt has in fact recognized it, but the US has not. Neither have Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Mexico or the United Kingdom (Source: Wikipedia). You are right that other Middle Eastern countries have not recognized the State of Palestine, but that can be explained by the tensions with Israel. Why single out the ME (ignoring Egypt?) if Europe and the US aren't taking a strong stance? 138 of the 193 states in the UN apparently fully recognize Palestine. What about the rest? I'm not an expert on dog whistles but I've seen anti Semites do the following at least: 1. From the river to the sea chant 2. Pulling out the bingo book of war crimes whenever Israel does something and instantly labelling everything a war crime even if we don't even have nearly enough information to establish such a fact 3. Hiding behind 'criticism of Israel is not anti semitism'. True, but anti Semites also use this to hide their anti semitism just like racists say that being anti immigration does not make you racist. As for people in the thread I don't know if anyone is anti semetic. I'm working off the assumption that everybody has some decency and is not anti semetic. But from the top of my head these are some prominent people/organisations that are anti semetic in my view: Corbyn's labour had issues with anti semitism, Tlaib, Melenchon, two Dutch parties in parliament used from the river to the sea chant and one of them has one Palestine with the Palestinian flag in their party programme. Luckily Labour got purged of their anti-Semitic elements so they can unequivocally support Israel now, that’s much better eh? I don't care who the Labour party supports. I gave an example of an organisation that had problems with anti semitism. On November 12 2023 18:25 Magic Powers wrote:On November 12 2023 10:26 RvB wrote:On November 10 2023 21:03 Godwrath wrote:I said that people denying that there is a ethnical cleanse going on are genocide enablers, not that Israel is commiting genocide. I stand by it, i don't think it's that confusing since most of the time it's a two step ladder, and at the time, people were discussing about letting Israel bomb the hell out of Gaza as a reasonable response "to stop Hamas", yourself included. The implication of calling others genocide enablers is pretty clear. It also shows the double standards of some in the thread. Calling others genocide enablers is not called out but anti semitism is. As for the bombing I've already explained how removing them from power in Gaza is legal under international law. That Israel uses more powerful weapons does not make it disproportionate. On November 11 2023 02:32 Magic Powers wrote:On November 11 2023 00:56 JimmiC wrote:On November 10 2023 23:39 Magic Powers wrote:
I wouldn't be able to point out a single person in this thread who'd fit the description of a Hamas apologist. Then you are extremely generous with your outlook. When someone starts claiming their genocidal ideology, talk, actions are not. Asks if they are justified. Starts to beat around the bush about the IDF doing the Hamas killing in spite of them taking credit, all the evidence including the self shot body cam and cell cam videos. When people are making claims about how the “west” treats Palestine without seemingly any realization that none of the Muslim or “Eastern” countries recognized Palestine before. I’m not sure if it is that people are not in tune to the left dog whistle’s the way they are to the right, maybe because they can not believe someone that shares their values in many ways can differ so hard on other things. But for me there is posters here who dog whistle’s have crossed into such blatant territory that it is impossible to ignore. I'm open to being educated about left-wing dog whistling. Is HasanAbi one of the people doing it? Can you also give an example of a comment in this thread? About recognition of a/the State of Palestine: I'm reading that Egypt has in fact recognized it, but the US has not. Neither have Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Mexico or the United Kingdom (Source: Wikipedia). You are right that other Middle Eastern countries have not recognized the State of Palestine, but that can be explained by the tensions with Israel. Why single out the ME (ignoring Egypt?) if Europe and the US aren't taking a strong stance? 138 of the 193 states in the UN apparently fully recognize Palestine. What about the rest? I'm not an expert on dog whistles but I've seen anti Semites do the following at least: 1. From the river to the sea chant 2. Pulling out the bingo book of war crimes whenever Israel does something and instantly labelling everything a war crime even if we don't even have nearly enough information to establish such a fact 3. Hiding behind 'criticism of Israel is not anti semitism'. True, but anti Semites also use this to hide their anti semitism just like racists say that being anti immigration does not make you racist. As for people in the thread I don't know if anyone is anti semetic. I'm working off the assumption that everybody has some decency and is not anti semetic. But from the top of my head these are some prominent people/organisations that are anti semetic in my view: Corbyn's labour had issues with anti semitism, Tlaib, Melenchon, two Dutch parties in parliament used from the river to the sea chant and one of them has one Palestine with the Palestinian flag in their party programme. This bombardment of Gaza is an atrocity. Call it what you want, war crime or not, it hardly makes a difference. I don't see how such a disproportionate level of aggression can be justified. And that's on top of Israel having a history of oppression. I'd like people to imagine a hypothetical. Imagine Germany doing something of this nature. Oppression of an ethnic group through Apartheid, displacement, imprisonment and starvation. What would the world say? We all know what the headlines would say. Regarding your examples of dog whistling, I can only agree with the first one. That can be an indicator. Point two and three don't qualify as dog whistling. It makes a difference. You can't see how it can be justified because you don't engage with the arguments put forth by the opposing side. Which argument that justifies the bombardment has not yet been refuted? We've been discussing this for many pages and I can't remember anyone being able to explain why so many civilian deaths are required or acceptable. No one has been able to explain why Israel can't leave it at having stabilized and secured its borders after October 7. Far from it, we've only seen mounting evidence that the counter measures are over the top, that they're only going to lead to further oppression of Palestinians, and that the total lives saved vs lives lost of innocent people speaks heavily against the bombardment. Please, do engage with these points, I'll gladly continue the discussion. Israel does not have a moral imperative to prioritize the lives of Gaza over the lives of Israel. If Israel can safely assume killing as many members of Hamas as possible and taking away their control of Gaza will decrease the total of Israelis killed, Israel has incentive to do that.
There is literally a leaked document out there that says that Israel, in the event where the only possibilities are a Gaza that is governed by the Palestinian Authority and a Gaza that is governed by Hamas, should favor the outcome where Gaza remains in control of Hamas because that makes it less likely that Palestine can become a state.
They are simply not doing or assuming the things that you keep saying they have a legitimate right to be doing or assuming.
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On November 13 2023 00:41 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2023 00:23 Mohdoo wrote:On November 12 2023 22:56 Magic Powers wrote:On November 12 2023 19:17 RvB wrote:On November 12 2023 17:05 WombaT wrote:On November 12 2023 10:26 RvB wrote:On November 10 2023 21:03 Godwrath wrote:I said that people denying that there is a ethnical cleanse going on are genocide enablers, not that Israel is commiting genocide. I stand by it, i don't think it's that confusing since most of the time it's a two step ladder, and at the time, people were discussing about letting Israel bomb the hell out of Gaza as a reasonable response "to stop Hamas", yourself included. The implication of calling others genocide enablers is pretty clear. It also shows the double standards of some in the thread. Calling others genocide enablers is not called out but anti semitism is. As for the bombing I've already explained how removing them from power in Gaza is legal under international law. That Israel uses more powerful weapons does not make it disproportionate. On November 11 2023 02:32 Magic Powers wrote:On November 11 2023 00:56 JimmiC wrote:On November 10 2023 23:39 Magic Powers wrote:
I wouldn't be able to point out a single person in this thread who'd fit the description of a Hamas apologist. Then you are extremely generous with your outlook. When someone starts claiming their genocidal ideology, talk, actions are not. Asks if they are justified. Starts to beat around the bush about the IDF doing the Hamas killing in spite of them taking credit, all the evidence including the self shot body cam and cell cam videos. When people are making claims about how the “west” treats Palestine without seemingly any realization that none of the Muslim or “Eastern” countries recognized Palestine before. I’m not sure if it is that people are not in tune to the left dog whistle’s the way they are to the right, maybe because they can not believe someone that shares their values in many ways can differ so hard on other things. But for me there is posters here who dog whistle’s have crossed into such blatant territory that it is impossible to ignore. I'm open to being educated about left-wing dog whistling. Is HasanAbi one of the people doing it? Can you also give an example of a comment in this thread? About recognition of a/the State of Palestine: I'm reading that Egypt has in fact recognized it, but the US has not. Neither have Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Mexico or the United Kingdom (Source: Wikipedia). You are right that other Middle Eastern countries have not recognized the State of Palestine, but that can be explained by the tensions with Israel. Why single out the ME (ignoring Egypt?) if Europe and the US aren't taking a strong stance? 138 of the 193 states in the UN apparently fully recognize Palestine. What about the rest? I'm not an expert on dog whistles but I've seen anti Semites do the following at least: 1. From the river to the sea chant 2. Pulling out the bingo book of war crimes whenever Israel does something and instantly labelling everything a war crime even if we don't even have nearly enough information to establish such a fact 3. Hiding behind 'criticism of Israel is not anti semitism'. True, but anti Semites also use this to hide their anti semitism just like racists say that being anti immigration does not make you racist. As for people in the thread I don't know if anyone is anti semetic. I'm working off the assumption that everybody has some decency and is not anti semetic. But from the top of my head these are some prominent people/organisations that are anti semetic in my view: Corbyn's labour had issues with anti semitism, Tlaib, Melenchon, two Dutch parties in parliament used from the river to the sea chant and one of them has one Palestine with the Palestinian flag in their party programme. Luckily Labour got purged of their anti-Semitic elements so they can unequivocally support Israel now, that’s much better eh? I don't care who the Labour party supports. I gave an example of an organisation that had problems with anti semitism. On November 12 2023 18:25 Magic Powers wrote:On November 12 2023 10:26 RvB wrote:On November 10 2023 21:03 Godwrath wrote:I said that people denying that there is a ethnical cleanse going on are genocide enablers, not that Israel is commiting genocide. I stand by it, i don't think it's that confusing since most of the time it's a two step ladder, and at the time, people were discussing about letting Israel bomb the hell out of Gaza as a reasonable response "to stop Hamas", yourself included. The implication of calling others genocide enablers is pretty clear. It also shows the double standards of some in the thread. Calling others genocide enablers is not called out but anti semitism is. As for the bombing I've already explained how removing them from power in Gaza is legal under international law. That Israel uses more powerful weapons does not make it disproportionate. On November 11 2023 02:32 Magic Powers wrote:On November 11 2023 00:56 JimmiC wrote:On November 10 2023 23:39 Magic Powers wrote:
I wouldn't be able to point out a single person in this thread who'd fit the description of a Hamas apologist. Then you are extremely generous with your outlook. When someone starts claiming their genocidal ideology, talk, actions are not. Asks if they are justified. Starts to beat around the bush about the IDF doing the Hamas killing in spite of them taking credit, all the evidence including the self shot body cam and cell cam videos. When people are making claims about how the “west” treats Palestine without seemingly any realization that none of the Muslim or “Eastern” countries recognized Palestine before. I’m not sure if it is that people are not in tune to the left dog whistle’s the way they are to the right, maybe because they can not believe someone that shares their values in many ways can differ so hard on other things. But for me there is posters here who dog whistle’s have crossed into such blatant territory that it is impossible to ignore. I'm open to being educated about left-wing dog whistling. Is HasanAbi one of the people doing it? Can you also give an example of a comment in this thread? About recognition of a/the State of Palestine: I'm reading that Egypt has in fact recognized it, but the US has not. Neither have Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Mexico or the United Kingdom (Source: Wikipedia). You are right that other Middle Eastern countries have not recognized the State of Palestine, but that can be explained by the tensions with Israel. Why single out the ME (ignoring Egypt?) if Europe and the US aren't taking a strong stance? 138 of the 193 states in the UN apparently fully recognize Palestine. What about the rest? I'm not an expert on dog whistles but I've seen anti Semites do the following at least: 1. From the river to the sea chant 2. Pulling out the bingo book of war crimes whenever Israel does something and instantly labelling everything a war crime even if we don't even have nearly enough information to establish such a fact 3. Hiding behind 'criticism of Israel is not anti semitism'. True, but anti Semites also use this to hide their anti semitism just like racists say that being anti immigration does not make you racist. As for people in the thread I don't know if anyone is anti semetic. I'm working off the assumption that everybody has some decency and is not anti semetic. But from the top of my head these are some prominent people/organisations that are anti semetic in my view: Corbyn's labour had issues with anti semitism, Tlaib, Melenchon, two Dutch parties in parliament used from the river to the sea chant and one of them has one Palestine with the Palestinian flag in their party programme. This bombardment of Gaza is an atrocity. Call it what you want, war crime or not, it hardly makes a difference. I don't see how such a disproportionate level of aggression can be justified. And that's on top of Israel having a history of oppression. I'd like people to imagine a hypothetical. Imagine Germany doing something of this nature. Oppression of an ethnic group through Apartheid, displacement, imprisonment and starvation. What would the world say? We all know what the headlines would say. Regarding your examples of dog whistling, I can only agree with the first one. That can be an indicator. Point two and three don't qualify as dog whistling. It makes a difference. You can't see how it can be justified because you don't engage with the arguments put forth by the opposing side. Which argument that justifies the bombardment has not yet been refuted? We've been discussing this for many pages and I can't remember anyone being able to explain why so many civilian deaths are required or acceptable. No one has been able to explain why Israel can't leave it at having stabilized and secured its borders after October 7. Far from it, we've only seen mounting evidence that the counter measures are over the top, that they're only going to lead to further oppression of Palestinians, and that the total lives saved vs lives lost of innocent people speaks heavily against the bombardment. Please, do engage with these points, I'll gladly continue the discussion. Israel does not have a moral imperative to prioritize the lives of Gaza over the lives of Israel. If Israel can safely assume killing as many members of Hamas as possible and taking away their control of Gaza will decrease the total of Israelis killed, Israel has incentive to do that. There is literally a leaked document out there that says that Israel, in the event where the only possibilities are a Gaza that is governed by the Palestinian Authority and a Gaza that is governed by Hamas, should favor the outcome where Gaza remains in control of Hamas because that makes it less likely that Palestine can become a state. They are simply not doing or assuming the things that you keep saying they have a legitimate right to be doing or assuming.
Even if we assume this document you’re alluding to is real, is properly contextualized by your description, it would be totally irrelevant. All it could ever provide is some kinda “yeah well here’s why Israeli lives shouldn’t be saved anyway” rubbish. Magic was asking why Israel can’t just be equally protected another way.
Even if we accept everything you’re saying, which of course I’m not going to because you’ve done nothing to prove your point, all it does is provide some kind of justification for blaming Israel for the situation. It does not relate to Israel protecting Israeli lives in this conflict today. You’re just muddying the waters and offering some kinda distracting victim blaming. Please stick to the actual topic.
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Northern Ireland23843 Posts
On November 13 2023 00:47 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2023 00:41 Nebuchad wrote:On November 13 2023 00:23 Mohdoo wrote:On November 12 2023 22:56 Magic Powers wrote:On November 12 2023 19:17 RvB wrote:On November 12 2023 17:05 WombaT wrote:On November 12 2023 10:26 RvB wrote:On November 10 2023 21:03 Godwrath wrote:I said that people denying that there is a ethnical cleanse going on are genocide enablers, not that Israel is commiting genocide. I stand by it, i don't think it's that confusing since most of the time it's a two step ladder, and at the time, people were discussing about letting Israel bomb the hell out of Gaza as a reasonable response "to stop Hamas", yourself included. The implication of calling others genocide enablers is pretty clear. It also shows the double standards of some in the thread. Calling others genocide enablers is not called out but anti semitism is. As for the bombing I've already explained how removing them from power in Gaza is legal under international law. That Israel uses more powerful weapons does not make it disproportionate. On November 11 2023 02:32 Magic Powers wrote:On November 11 2023 00:56 JimmiC wrote:On November 10 2023 23:39 Magic Powers wrote:
I wouldn't be able to point out a single person in this thread who'd fit the description of a Hamas apologist. Then you are extremely generous with your outlook. When someone starts claiming their genocidal ideology, talk, actions are not. Asks if they are justified. Starts to beat around the bush about the IDF doing the Hamas killing in spite of them taking credit, all the evidence including the self shot body cam and cell cam videos. When people are making claims about how the “west” treats Palestine without seemingly any realization that none of the Muslim or “Eastern” countries recognized Palestine before. I’m not sure if it is that people are not in tune to the left dog whistle’s the way they are to the right, maybe because they can not believe someone that shares their values in many ways can differ so hard on other things. But for me there is posters here who dog whistle’s have crossed into such blatant territory that it is impossible to ignore. I'm open to being educated about left-wing dog whistling. Is HasanAbi one of the people doing it? Can you also give an example of a comment in this thread? About recognition of a/the State of Palestine: I'm reading that Egypt has in fact recognized it, but the US has not. Neither have Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Mexico or the United Kingdom (Source: Wikipedia). You are right that other Middle Eastern countries have not recognized the State of Palestine, but that can be explained by the tensions with Israel. Why single out the ME (ignoring Egypt?) if Europe and the US aren't taking a strong stance? 138 of the 193 states in the UN apparently fully recognize Palestine. What about the rest? I'm not an expert on dog whistles but I've seen anti Semites do the following at least: 1. From the river to the sea chant 2. Pulling out the bingo book of war crimes whenever Israel does something and instantly labelling everything a war crime even if we don't even have nearly enough information to establish such a fact 3. Hiding behind 'criticism of Israel is not anti semitism'. True, but anti Semites also use this to hide their anti semitism just like racists say that being anti immigration does not make you racist. As for people in the thread I don't know if anyone is anti semetic. I'm working off the assumption that everybody has some decency and is not anti semetic. But from the top of my head these are some prominent people/organisations that are anti semetic in my view: Corbyn's labour had issues with anti semitism, Tlaib, Melenchon, two Dutch parties in parliament used from the river to the sea chant and one of them has one Palestine with the Palestinian flag in their party programme. Luckily Labour got purged of their anti-Semitic elements so they can unequivocally support Israel now, that’s much better eh? I don't care who the Labour party supports. I gave an example of an organisation that had problems with anti semitism. On November 12 2023 18:25 Magic Powers wrote:On November 12 2023 10:26 RvB wrote:On November 10 2023 21:03 Godwrath wrote:I said that people denying that there is a ethnical cleanse going on are genocide enablers, not that Israel is commiting genocide. I stand by it, i don't think it's that confusing since most of the time it's a two step ladder, and at the time, people were discussing about letting Israel bomb the hell out of Gaza as a reasonable response "to stop Hamas", yourself included. The implication of calling others genocide enablers is pretty clear. It also shows the double standards of some in the thread. Calling others genocide enablers is not called out but anti semitism is. As for the bombing I've already explained how removing them from power in Gaza is legal under international law. That Israel uses more powerful weapons does not make it disproportionate. On November 11 2023 02:32 Magic Powers wrote:On November 11 2023 00:56 JimmiC wrote:On November 10 2023 23:39 Magic Powers wrote:
I wouldn't be able to point out a single person in this thread who'd fit the description of a Hamas apologist. Then you are extremely generous with your outlook. When someone starts claiming their genocidal ideology, talk, actions are not. Asks if they are justified. Starts to beat around the bush about the IDF doing the Hamas killing in spite of them taking credit, all the evidence including the self shot body cam and cell cam videos. When people are making claims about how the “west” treats Palestine without seemingly any realization that none of the Muslim or “Eastern” countries recognized Palestine before. I’m not sure if it is that people are not in tune to the left dog whistle’s the way they are to the right, maybe because they can not believe someone that shares their values in many ways can differ so hard on other things. But for me there is posters here who dog whistle’s have crossed into such blatant territory that it is impossible to ignore. I'm open to being educated about left-wing dog whistling. Is HasanAbi one of the people doing it? Can you also give an example of a comment in this thread? About recognition of a/the State of Palestine: I'm reading that Egypt has in fact recognized it, but the US has not. Neither have Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Mexico or the United Kingdom (Source: Wikipedia). You are right that other Middle Eastern countries have not recognized the State of Palestine, but that can be explained by the tensions with Israel. Why single out the ME (ignoring Egypt?) if Europe and the US aren't taking a strong stance? 138 of the 193 states in the UN apparently fully recognize Palestine. What about the rest? I'm not an expert on dog whistles but I've seen anti Semites do the following at least: 1. From the river to the sea chant 2. Pulling out the bingo book of war crimes whenever Israel does something and instantly labelling everything a war crime even if we don't even have nearly enough information to establish such a fact 3. Hiding behind 'criticism of Israel is not anti semitism'. True, but anti Semites also use this to hide their anti semitism just like racists say that being anti immigration does not make you racist. As for people in the thread I don't know if anyone is anti semetic. I'm working off the assumption that everybody has some decency and is not anti semetic. But from the top of my head these are some prominent people/organisations that are anti semetic in my view: Corbyn's labour had issues with anti semitism, Tlaib, Melenchon, two Dutch parties in parliament used from the river to the sea chant and one of them has one Palestine with the Palestinian flag in their party programme. This bombardment of Gaza is an atrocity. Call it what you want, war crime or not, it hardly makes a difference. I don't see how such a disproportionate level of aggression can be justified. And that's on top of Israel having a history of oppression. I'd like people to imagine a hypothetical. Imagine Germany doing something of this nature. Oppression of an ethnic group through Apartheid, displacement, imprisonment and starvation. What would the world say? We all know what the headlines would say. Regarding your examples of dog whistling, I can only agree with the first one. That can be an indicator. Point two and three don't qualify as dog whistling. It makes a difference. You can't see how it can be justified because you don't engage with the arguments put forth by the opposing side. Which argument that justifies the bombardment has not yet been refuted? We've been discussing this for many pages and I can't remember anyone being able to explain why so many civilian deaths are required or acceptable. No one has been able to explain why Israel can't leave it at having stabilized and secured its borders after October 7. Far from it, we've only seen mounting evidence that the counter measures are over the top, that they're only going to lead to further oppression of Palestinians, and that the total lives saved vs lives lost of innocent people speaks heavily against the bombardment. Please, do engage with these points, I'll gladly continue the discussion. Israel does not have a moral imperative to prioritize the lives of Gaza over the lives of Israel. If Israel can safely assume killing as many members of Hamas as possible and taking away their control of Gaza will decrease the total of Israelis killed, Israel has incentive to do that. There is literally a leaked document out there that says that Israel, in the event where the only possibilities are a Gaza that is governed by the Palestinian Authority and a Gaza that is governed by Hamas, should favor the outcome where Gaza remains in control of Hamas because that makes it less likely that Palestine can become a state. They are simply not doing or assuming the things that you keep saying they have a legitimate right to be doing or assuming. Even if we assume this document you’re alluding to is real, is properly contextualized by your description, it would be totally irrelevant. All it could ever provide is some kinda “yeah well here’s why Israeli lives shouldn’t be saved anyway” rubbish. Magic was asking why Israel can’t just be equally protected another way. Even if we accept everything you’re saying, which of course I’m not going to because you’ve done nothing to prove your point, all it does is provide some kind of justification for blaming Israel for the situation. It does not relate to Israel protecting Israeli lives in this conflict today. You’re just muddying the waters and offering some kinda distracting victim blaming. Please stick to the actual topic.
How on Earth would that be irrelevant?
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On November 13 2023 00:47 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2023 00:41 Nebuchad wrote:On November 13 2023 00:23 Mohdoo wrote:On November 12 2023 22:56 Magic Powers wrote:On November 12 2023 19:17 RvB wrote:On November 12 2023 17:05 WombaT wrote:On November 12 2023 10:26 RvB wrote:On November 10 2023 21:03 Godwrath wrote:I said that people denying that there is a ethnical cleanse going on are genocide enablers, not that Israel is commiting genocide. I stand by it, i don't think it's that confusing since most of the time it's a two step ladder, and at the time, people were discussing about letting Israel bomb the hell out of Gaza as a reasonable response "to stop Hamas", yourself included. The implication of calling others genocide enablers is pretty clear. It also shows the double standards of some in the thread. Calling others genocide enablers is not called out but anti semitism is. As for the bombing I've already explained how removing them from power in Gaza is legal under international law. That Israel uses more powerful weapons does not make it disproportionate. On November 11 2023 02:32 Magic Powers wrote:On November 11 2023 00:56 JimmiC wrote:On November 10 2023 23:39 Magic Powers wrote:
I wouldn't be able to point out a single person in this thread who'd fit the description of a Hamas apologist. Then you are extremely generous with your outlook. When someone starts claiming their genocidal ideology, talk, actions are not. Asks if they are justified. Starts to beat around the bush about the IDF doing the Hamas killing in spite of them taking credit, all the evidence including the self shot body cam and cell cam videos. When people are making claims about how the “west” treats Palestine without seemingly any realization that none of the Muslim or “Eastern” countries recognized Palestine before. I’m not sure if it is that people are not in tune to the left dog whistle’s the way they are to the right, maybe because they can not believe someone that shares their values in many ways can differ so hard on other things. But for me there is posters here who dog whistle’s have crossed into such blatant territory that it is impossible to ignore. I'm open to being educated about left-wing dog whistling. Is HasanAbi one of the people doing it? Can you also give an example of a comment in this thread? About recognition of a/the State of Palestine: I'm reading that Egypt has in fact recognized it, but the US has not. Neither have Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Mexico or the United Kingdom (Source: Wikipedia). You are right that other Middle Eastern countries have not recognized the State of Palestine, but that can be explained by the tensions with Israel. Why single out the ME (ignoring Egypt?) if Europe and the US aren't taking a strong stance? 138 of the 193 states in the UN apparently fully recognize Palestine. What about the rest? I'm not an expert on dog whistles but I've seen anti Semites do the following at least: 1. From the river to the sea chant 2. Pulling out the bingo book of war crimes whenever Israel does something and instantly labelling everything a war crime even if we don't even have nearly enough information to establish such a fact 3. Hiding behind 'criticism of Israel is not anti semitism'. True, but anti Semites also use this to hide their anti semitism just like racists say that being anti immigration does not make you racist. As for people in the thread I don't know if anyone is anti semetic. I'm working off the assumption that everybody has some decency and is not anti semetic. But from the top of my head these are some prominent people/organisations that are anti semetic in my view: Corbyn's labour had issues with anti semitism, Tlaib, Melenchon, two Dutch parties in parliament used from the river to the sea chant and one of them has one Palestine with the Palestinian flag in their party programme. Luckily Labour got purged of their anti-Semitic elements so they can unequivocally support Israel now, that’s much better eh? I don't care who the Labour party supports. I gave an example of an organisation that had problems with anti semitism. On November 12 2023 18:25 Magic Powers wrote:On November 12 2023 10:26 RvB wrote:On November 10 2023 21:03 Godwrath wrote:I said that people denying that there is a ethnical cleanse going on are genocide enablers, not that Israel is commiting genocide. I stand by it, i don't think it's that confusing since most of the time it's a two step ladder, and at the time, people were discussing about letting Israel bomb the hell out of Gaza as a reasonable response "to stop Hamas", yourself included. The implication of calling others genocide enablers is pretty clear. It also shows the double standards of some in the thread. Calling others genocide enablers is not called out but anti semitism is. As for the bombing I've already explained how removing them from power in Gaza is legal under international law. That Israel uses more powerful weapons does not make it disproportionate. On November 11 2023 02:32 Magic Powers wrote:On November 11 2023 00:56 JimmiC wrote:On November 10 2023 23:39 Magic Powers wrote:
I wouldn't be able to point out a single person in this thread who'd fit the description of a Hamas apologist. Then you are extremely generous with your outlook. When someone starts claiming their genocidal ideology, talk, actions are not. Asks if they are justified. Starts to beat around the bush about the IDF doing the Hamas killing in spite of them taking credit, all the evidence including the self shot body cam and cell cam videos. When people are making claims about how the “west” treats Palestine without seemingly any realization that none of the Muslim or “Eastern” countries recognized Palestine before. I’m not sure if it is that people are not in tune to the left dog whistle’s the way they are to the right, maybe because they can not believe someone that shares their values in many ways can differ so hard on other things. But for me there is posters here who dog whistle’s have crossed into such blatant territory that it is impossible to ignore. I'm open to being educated about left-wing dog whistling. Is HasanAbi one of the people doing it? Can you also give an example of a comment in this thread? About recognition of a/the State of Palestine: I'm reading that Egypt has in fact recognized it, but the US has not. Neither have Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Mexico or the United Kingdom (Source: Wikipedia). You are right that other Middle Eastern countries have not recognized the State of Palestine, but that can be explained by the tensions with Israel. Why single out the ME (ignoring Egypt?) if Europe and the US aren't taking a strong stance? 138 of the 193 states in the UN apparently fully recognize Palestine. What about the rest? I'm not an expert on dog whistles but I've seen anti Semites do the following at least: 1. From the river to the sea chant 2. Pulling out the bingo book of war crimes whenever Israel does something and instantly labelling everything a war crime even if we don't even have nearly enough information to establish such a fact 3. Hiding behind 'criticism of Israel is not anti semitism'. True, but anti Semites also use this to hide their anti semitism just like racists say that being anti immigration does not make you racist. As for people in the thread I don't know if anyone is anti semetic. I'm working off the assumption that everybody has some decency and is not anti semetic. But from the top of my head these are some prominent people/organisations that are anti semetic in my view: Corbyn's labour had issues with anti semitism, Tlaib, Melenchon, two Dutch parties in parliament used from the river to the sea chant and one of them has one Palestine with the Palestinian flag in their party programme. This bombardment of Gaza is an atrocity. Call it what you want, war crime or not, it hardly makes a difference. I don't see how such a disproportionate level of aggression can be justified. And that's on top of Israel having a history of oppression. I'd like people to imagine a hypothetical. Imagine Germany doing something of this nature. Oppression of an ethnic group through Apartheid, displacement, imprisonment and starvation. What would the world say? We all know what the headlines would say. Regarding your examples of dog whistling, I can only agree with the first one. That can be an indicator. Point two and three don't qualify as dog whistling. It makes a difference. You can't see how it can be justified because you don't engage with the arguments put forth by the opposing side. Which argument that justifies the bombardment has not yet been refuted? We've been discussing this for many pages and I can't remember anyone being able to explain why so many civilian deaths are required or acceptable. No one has been able to explain why Israel can't leave it at having stabilized and secured its borders after October 7. Far from it, we've only seen mounting evidence that the counter measures are over the top, that they're only going to lead to further oppression of Palestinians, and that the total lives saved vs lives lost of innocent people speaks heavily against the bombardment. Please, do engage with these points, I'll gladly continue the discussion. Israel does not have a moral imperative to prioritize the lives of Gaza over the lives of Israel. If Israel can safely assume killing as many members of Hamas as possible and taking away their control of Gaza will decrease the total of Israelis killed, Israel has incentive to do that. There is literally a leaked document out there that says that Israel, in the event where the only possibilities are a Gaza that is governed by the Palestinian Authority and a Gaza that is governed by Hamas, should favor the outcome where Gaza remains in control of Hamas because that makes it less likely that Palestine can become a state. They are simply not doing or assuming the things that you keep saying they have a legitimate right to be doing or assuming. Even if we assume this document you’re alluding to is real, is properly contextualized by your description, it would be totally irrelevant. All it could ever provide is some kinda “yeah well here’s why Israeli lives shouldn’t be saved anyway” rubbish. Magic was asking why Israel can’t just be equally protected another way. Even if we accept everything you’re saying, which of course I’m not going to because you’ve done nothing to prove your point, all it does is provide some kind of justification for blaming Israel for the situation. It does not relate to Israel protecting Israeli lives in this conflict today. You’re just muddying the waters and offering some kinda distracting victim blaming. Please stick to the actual topic.
The topic is you presenting a rationale for Israel's actions. We can discuss whether your rationale makes Israel justified or not and lose brain cells together, that's one way to spend our time. My objection is that your rationale is not grounded in the real world: this is not why Israel is doing what it's doing. The notion that even if we accepted what I say, it would be irrelevant, is absurd.
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On November 13 2023 01:00 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2023 00:47 Mohdoo wrote:On November 13 2023 00:41 Nebuchad wrote:On November 13 2023 00:23 Mohdoo wrote:On November 12 2023 22:56 Magic Powers wrote:On November 12 2023 19:17 RvB wrote:On November 12 2023 17:05 WombaT wrote:On November 12 2023 10:26 RvB wrote:On November 10 2023 21:03 Godwrath wrote:I said that people denying that there is a ethnical cleanse going on are genocide enablers, not that Israel is commiting genocide. I stand by it, i don't think it's that confusing since most of the time it's a two step ladder, and at the time, people were discussing about letting Israel bomb the hell out of Gaza as a reasonable response "to stop Hamas", yourself included. The implication of calling others genocide enablers is pretty clear. It also shows the double standards of some in the thread. Calling others genocide enablers is not called out but anti semitism is. As for the bombing I've already explained how removing them from power in Gaza is legal under international law. That Israel uses more powerful weapons does not make it disproportionate. On November 11 2023 02:32 Magic Powers wrote:On November 11 2023 00:56 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
Then you are extremely generous with your outlook. When someone starts claiming their genocidal ideology, talk, actions are not. Asks if they are justified. Starts to beat around the bush about the IDF doing the Hamas killing in spite of them taking credit, all the evidence including the self shot body cam and cell cam videos. When people are making claims about how the “west” treats Palestine without seemingly any realization that none of the Muslim or “Eastern” countries recognized Palestine before.
I’m not sure if it is that people are not in tune to the left dog whistle’s the way they are to the right, maybe because they can not believe someone that shares their values in many ways can differ so hard on other things. But for me there is posters here who dog whistle’s have crossed into such blatant territory that it is impossible to ignore. I'm open to being educated about left-wing dog whistling. Is HasanAbi one of the people doing it? Can you also give an example of a comment in this thread? About recognition of a/the State of Palestine: I'm reading that Egypt has in fact recognized it, but the US has not. Neither have Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Mexico or the United Kingdom (Source: Wikipedia). You are right that other Middle Eastern countries have not recognized the State of Palestine, but that can be explained by the tensions with Israel. Why single out the ME (ignoring Egypt?) if Europe and the US aren't taking a strong stance? 138 of the 193 states in the UN apparently fully recognize Palestine. What about the rest? I'm not an expert on dog whistles but I've seen anti Semites do the following at least: 1. From the river to the sea chant 2. Pulling out the bingo book of war crimes whenever Israel does something and instantly labelling everything a war crime even if we don't even have nearly enough information to establish such a fact 3. Hiding behind 'criticism of Israel is not anti semitism'. True, but anti Semites also use this to hide their anti semitism just like racists say that being anti immigration does not make you racist. As for people in the thread I don't know if anyone is anti semetic. I'm working off the assumption that everybody has some decency and is not anti semetic. But from the top of my head these are some prominent people/organisations that are anti semetic in my view: Corbyn's labour had issues with anti semitism, Tlaib, Melenchon, two Dutch parties in parliament used from the river to the sea chant and one of them has one Palestine with the Palestinian flag in their party programme. Luckily Labour got purged of their anti-Semitic elements so they can unequivocally support Israel now, that’s much better eh? I don't care who the Labour party supports. I gave an example of an organisation that had problems with anti semitism. On November 12 2023 18:25 Magic Powers wrote:On November 12 2023 10:26 RvB wrote:On November 10 2023 21:03 Godwrath wrote:I said that people denying that there is a ethnical cleanse going on are genocide enablers, not that Israel is commiting genocide. I stand by it, i don't think it's that confusing since most of the time it's a two step ladder, and at the time, people were discussing about letting Israel bomb the hell out of Gaza as a reasonable response "to stop Hamas", yourself included. The implication of calling others genocide enablers is pretty clear. It also shows the double standards of some in the thread. Calling others genocide enablers is not called out but anti semitism is. As for the bombing I've already explained how removing them from power in Gaza is legal under international law. That Israel uses more powerful weapons does not make it disproportionate. On November 11 2023 02:32 Magic Powers wrote:On November 11 2023 00:56 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
Then you are extremely generous with your outlook. When someone starts claiming their genocidal ideology, talk, actions are not. Asks if they are justified. Starts to beat around the bush about the IDF doing the Hamas killing in spite of them taking credit, all the evidence including the self shot body cam and cell cam videos. When people are making claims about how the “west” treats Palestine without seemingly any realization that none of the Muslim or “Eastern” countries recognized Palestine before.
I’m not sure if it is that people are not in tune to the left dog whistle’s the way they are to the right, maybe because they can not believe someone that shares their values in many ways can differ so hard on other things. But for me there is posters here who dog whistle’s have crossed into such blatant territory that it is impossible to ignore. I'm open to being educated about left-wing dog whistling. Is HasanAbi one of the people doing it? Can you also give an example of a comment in this thread? About recognition of a/the State of Palestine: I'm reading that Egypt has in fact recognized it, but the US has not. Neither have Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Mexico or the United Kingdom (Source: Wikipedia). You are right that other Middle Eastern countries have not recognized the State of Palestine, but that can be explained by the tensions with Israel. Why single out the ME (ignoring Egypt?) if Europe and the US aren't taking a strong stance? 138 of the 193 states in the UN apparently fully recognize Palestine. What about the rest? I'm not an expert on dog whistles but I've seen anti Semites do the following at least: 1. From the river to the sea chant 2. Pulling out the bingo book of war crimes whenever Israel does something and instantly labelling everything a war crime even if we don't even have nearly enough information to establish such a fact 3. Hiding behind 'criticism of Israel is not anti semitism'. True, but anti Semites also use this to hide their anti semitism just like racists say that being anti immigration does not make you racist. As for people in the thread I don't know if anyone is anti semetic. I'm working off the assumption that everybody has some decency and is not anti semetic. But from the top of my head these are some prominent people/organisations that are anti semetic in my view: Corbyn's labour had issues with anti semitism, Tlaib, Melenchon, two Dutch parties in parliament used from the river to the sea chant and one of them has one Palestine with the Palestinian flag in their party programme. This bombardment of Gaza is an atrocity. Call it what you want, war crime or not, it hardly makes a difference. I don't see how such a disproportionate level of aggression can be justified. And that's on top of Israel having a history of oppression. I'd like people to imagine a hypothetical. Imagine Germany doing something of this nature. Oppression of an ethnic group through Apartheid, displacement, imprisonment and starvation. What would the world say? We all know what the headlines would say. Regarding your examples of dog whistling, I can only agree with the first one. That can be an indicator. Point two and three don't qualify as dog whistling. It makes a difference. You can't see how it can be justified because you don't engage with the arguments put forth by the opposing side. Which argument that justifies the bombardment has not yet been refuted? We've been discussing this for many pages and I can't remember anyone being able to explain why so many civilian deaths are required or acceptable. No one has been able to explain why Israel can't leave it at having stabilized and secured its borders after October 7. Far from it, we've only seen mounting evidence that the counter measures are over the top, that they're only going to lead to further oppression of Palestinians, and that the total lives saved vs lives lost of innocent people speaks heavily against the bombardment. Please, do engage with these points, I'll gladly continue the discussion. Israel does not have a moral imperative to prioritize the lives of Gaza over the lives of Israel. If Israel can safely assume killing as many members of Hamas as possible and taking away their control of Gaza will decrease the total of Israelis killed, Israel has incentive to do that. There is literally a leaked document out there that says that Israel, in the event where the only possibilities are a Gaza that is governed by the Palestinian Authority and a Gaza that is governed by Hamas, should favor the outcome where Gaza remains in control of Hamas because that makes it less likely that Palestine can become a state. They are simply not doing or assuming the things that you keep saying they have a legitimate right to be doing or assuming. Even if we assume this document you’re alluding to is real, is properly contextualized by your description, it would be totally irrelevant. All it could ever provide is some kinda “yeah well here’s why Israeli lives shouldn’t be saved anyway” rubbish. Magic was asking why Israel can’t just be equally protected another way. Even if we accept everything you’re saying, which of course I’m not going to because you’ve done nothing to prove your point, all it does is provide some kind of justification for blaming Israel for the situation. It does not relate to Israel protecting Israeli lives in this conflict today. You’re just muddying the waters and offering some kinda distracting victim blaming. Please stick to the actual topic. The topic is you presenting a rationale for Israel's actions. We can discuss whether your rationale makes Israel justified or not and lose brain cells together, that's one way to spend our time. My objection is that your rationale is not grounded in the real world: this is not why Israel is doing what it's doing. The notion that even if we accepted what I say, it would be irrelevant, is absurd.
Israel is killing Hamas and destroying their hold on Gaza in pursuit of less Israelis dying. Killing more Hamas means less Israelis dying. That’s what Magic was focusing on. He was asking why not just focus on defense. He was saying there is not a benefit to Israel created by just killing Hamas. I am saying Israel has additional benefits provided to it by simply killing Hamas as well. The whole “yeah but Israel liked Hamas when it helped their long term land acquisition goals” is just a detour. The specific, zoomed in topic brought up by magic was: is there any additional reduction in Israeli deaths from Israel killing Hamas? I answered “yes”.
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On November 13 2023 01:17 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2023 01:00 Nebuchad wrote:On November 13 2023 00:47 Mohdoo wrote:On November 13 2023 00:41 Nebuchad wrote:On November 13 2023 00:23 Mohdoo wrote:On November 12 2023 22:56 Magic Powers wrote:On November 12 2023 19:17 RvB wrote:On November 12 2023 17:05 WombaT wrote:On November 12 2023 10:26 RvB wrote:On November 10 2023 21:03 Godwrath wrote:
[quote]
I said that people denying that there is a ethnical cleanse going on are genocide enablers, not that Israel is commiting genocide. I stand by it, i don't think it's that confusing since most of the time it's a two step ladder, and at the time, people were discussing about letting Israel bomb the hell out of Gaza as a reasonable response "to stop Hamas", yourself included. The implication of calling others genocide enablers is pretty clear. It also shows the double standards of some in the thread. Calling others genocide enablers is not called out but anti semitism is. As for the bombing I've already explained how removing them from power in Gaza is legal under international law. That Israel uses more powerful weapons does not make it disproportionate. On November 11 2023 02:32 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
I'm open to being educated about left-wing dog whistling. Is HasanAbi one of the people doing it? Can you also give an example of a comment in this thread?
About recognition of a/the State of Palestine: I'm reading that Egypt has in fact recognized it, but the US has not. Neither have Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Mexico or the United Kingdom (Source: Wikipedia).
You are right that other Middle Eastern countries have not recognized the State of Palestine, but that can be explained by the tensions with Israel. Why single out the ME (ignoring Egypt?) if Europe and the US aren't taking a strong stance? 138 of the 193 states in the UN apparently fully recognize Palestine. What about the rest? I'm not an expert on dog whistles but I've seen anti Semites do the following at least: 1. From the river to the sea chant 2. Pulling out the bingo book of war crimes whenever Israel does something and instantly labelling everything a war crime even if we don't even have nearly enough information to establish such a fact 3. Hiding behind 'criticism of Israel is not anti semitism'. True, but anti Semites also use this to hide their anti semitism just like racists say that being anti immigration does not make you racist. As for people in the thread I don't know if anyone is anti semetic. I'm working off the assumption that everybody has some decency and is not anti semetic. But from the top of my head these are some prominent people/organisations that are anti semetic in my view: Corbyn's labour had issues with anti semitism, Tlaib, Melenchon, two Dutch parties in parliament used from the river to the sea chant and one of them has one Palestine with the Palestinian flag in their party programme. Luckily Labour got purged of their anti-Semitic elements so they can unequivocally support Israel now, that’s much better eh? I don't care who the Labour party supports. I gave an example of an organisation that had problems with anti semitism. On November 12 2023 18:25 Magic Powers wrote:On November 12 2023 10:26 RvB wrote:On November 10 2023 21:03 Godwrath wrote:
[quote]
I said that people denying that there is a ethnical cleanse going on are genocide enablers, not that Israel is commiting genocide. I stand by it, i don't think it's that confusing since most of the time it's a two step ladder, and at the time, people were discussing about letting Israel bomb the hell out of Gaza as a reasonable response "to stop Hamas", yourself included. The implication of calling others genocide enablers is pretty clear. It also shows the double standards of some in the thread. Calling others genocide enablers is not called out but anti semitism is. As for the bombing I've already explained how removing them from power in Gaza is legal under international law. That Israel uses more powerful weapons does not make it disproportionate. On November 11 2023 02:32 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
I'm open to being educated about left-wing dog whistling. Is HasanAbi one of the people doing it? Can you also give an example of a comment in this thread?
About recognition of a/the State of Palestine: I'm reading that Egypt has in fact recognized it, but the US has not. Neither have Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Mexico or the United Kingdom (Source: Wikipedia).
You are right that other Middle Eastern countries have not recognized the State of Palestine, but that can be explained by the tensions with Israel. Why single out the ME (ignoring Egypt?) if Europe and the US aren't taking a strong stance? 138 of the 193 states in the UN apparently fully recognize Palestine. What about the rest? I'm not an expert on dog whistles but I've seen anti Semites do the following at least: 1. From the river to the sea chant 2. Pulling out the bingo book of war crimes whenever Israel does something and instantly labelling everything a war crime even if we don't even have nearly enough information to establish such a fact 3. Hiding behind 'criticism of Israel is not anti semitism'. True, but anti Semites also use this to hide their anti semitism just like racists say that being anti immigration does not make you racist. As for people in the thread I don't know if anyone is anti semetic. I'm working off the assumption that everybody has some decency and is not anti semetic. But from the top of my head these are some prominent people/organisations that are anti semetic in my view: Corbyn's labour had issues with anti semitism, Tlaib, Melenchon, two Dutch parties in parliament used from the river to the sea chant and one of them has one Palestine with the Palestinian flag in their party programme. This bombardment of Gaza is an atrocity. Call it what you want, war crime or not, it hardly makes a difference. I don't see how such a disproportionate level of aggression can be justified. And that's on top of Israel having a history of oppression. I'd like people to imagine a hypothetical. Imagine Germany doing something of this nature. Oppression of an ethnic group through Apartheid, displacement, imprisonment and starvation. What would the world say? We all know what the headlines would say. Regarding your examples of dog whistling, I can only agree with the first one. That can be an indicator. Point two and three don't qualify as dog whistling. It makes a difference. You can't see how it can be justified because you don't engage with the arguments put forth by the opposing side. Which argument that justifies the bombardment has not yet been refuted? We've been discussing this for many pages and I can't remember anyone being able to explain why so many civilian deaths are required or acceptable. No one has been able to explain why Israel can't leave it at having stabilized and secured its borders after October 7. Far from it, we've only seen mounting evidence that the counter measures are over the top, that they're only going to lead to further oppression of Palestinians, and that the total lives saved vs lives lost of innocent people speaks heavily against the bombardment. Please, do engage with these points, I'll gladly continue the discussion. Israel does not have a moral imperative to prioritize the lives of Gaza over the lives of Israel. If Israel can safely assume killing as many members of Hamas as possible and taking away their control of Gaza will decrease the total of Israelis killed, Israel has incentive to do that. There is literally a leaked document out there that says that Israel, in the event where the only possibilities are a Gaza that is governed by the Palestinian Authority and a Gaza that is governed by Hamas, should favor the outcome where Gaza remains in control of Hamas because that makes it less likely that Palestine can become a state. They are simply not doing or assuming the things that you keep saying they have a legitimate right to be doing or assuming. Even if we assume this document you’re alluding to is real, is properly contextualized by your description, it would be totally irrelevant. All it could ever provide is some kinda “yeah well here’s why Israeli lives shouldn’t be saved anyway” rubbish. Magic was asking why Israel can’t just be equally protected another way. Even if we accept everything you’re saying, which of course I’m not going to because you’ve done nothing to prove your point, all it does is provide some kind of justification for blaming Israel for the situation. It does not relate to Israel protecting Israeli lives in this conflict today. You’re just muddying the waters and offering some kinda distracting victim blaming. Please stick to the actual topic. The topic is you presenting a rationale for Israel's actions. We can discuss whether your rationale makes Israel justified or not and lose brain cells together, that's one way to spend our time. My objection is that your rationale is not grounded in the real world: this is not why Israel is doing what it's doing. The notion that even if we accepted what I say, it would be irrelevant, is absurd. Israel is killing Hamas + Show Spoiler +and destroying their hold on Gaza in pursuit of less Israelis dying. Killing more Hamas means less Israelis dying. That’s what Magic was focusing on. He was asking why not just focus on defense. He was saying there is not a benefit to Israel created by just killing Hamas. I am saying Israel has additional benefits provided to it by simply killing Hamas as well. The whole “yeah but Israel liked Hamas when it helped their long term land acquisition goals” is just a detour. The specific, zoomed in topic brought up by magic was: is there any additional reduction in Israeli deaths from Israel killing Hamas? I answered “yes” .
Are they? How many Hamas fighters has Israel killed in Gaza?
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The end of the runway is in sight for Netanyahu when it comes to the US. The only silver lining would be for Israel to take the Al-Shifa hospital and restore power and deliver supplies to it while clearing any potential Hamas hideouts near or underneath it.
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EPT
