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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On November 10 2023 10:53 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2023 10:36 Nebuchad wrote:Only one that's problematic is 5th one by me, the rest are totally fine. I had a worse one than this btw, you missed it  I know you have worse. I just took one to prove the point. It's not my job.
Your job indeed appears to be helping Jimmi move the conversation from "ethnic cleansing vs not ethnic cleansing" and toward "ethnic cleansing vs genocide"
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I stand corrected. My post was based on the last few pages in which everyone appeared to be deliberately using the term ethnic cleansing
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On November 10 2023 10:56 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2023 10:53 RvB wrote:On November 10 2023 10:36 Nebuchad wrote:Only one that's problematic is 5th one by me, the rest are totally fine. I had a worse one than this btw, you missed it I know you have worse. I just took one to prove the point. It's not my job. Your job indeed appears to be helping Jimmi move the conversation from "ethnic cleansing vs not ethnic cleansing" and toward "ethnic cleansing vs genocide"
I'm doing nothing of the sort. I'm not interested in entering the debate about ethnic cleansing. I saw something in BJs post that I thought was wrong and pointed it out. That's all there is to it. Jimmi is his own man, he does not need my help.
On November 10 2023 11:58 BlackJack wrote:I stand corrected. My post was based on the last few pages in which everyone appeared to be deliberately using the term ethnic cleansing
Fair enough. It made me curious about the definition of ethnic cleansing. Turns out it's not even an independent crime and there's not a precise definition:
Ethnic cleansing has not been recognized as an independent crime under international law. The term surfaced in the context of the 1990’s conflict in the former Yugoslavia and is considered to come from a literal translation of the Serbo-Croatian expression “etničko čišćenje”. However, the precise roots of the term or who started using it and why are still uncertain.
The expression “ethnic cleansing” has been used in resolutions of the Security Council and the General Assembly, and has been acknowledged in judgments and indictments of the ICTY, although it did not constitute one of the counts for prosecution. A definition was never provided.
Definition
As ethnic cleansing has not been recognized as an independent crime under international law, there is no precise definition of this concept or the exact acts to be qualified as ethnic cleansing. A United Nations Commission of Experts mandated to look into violations of international humanitarian law committed in the territory of the former Yugoslavia defined ethnic cleansing in its interim report S/25274 as "… rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove persons of given groups from the area." In its final report S/1994/674, the same Commission described ethnic cleansing as “… a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas.”
The Commission of Experts also stated that the coercive practices used to remove the civilian population can include: murder, torture, arbitrary arrest and detention, extrajudicial executions, rape and sexual assaults, severe physical injury to civilians, confinement of civilian population in ghetto areas, forcible removal, displacement and deportation of civilian population, deliberate military attacks or threats of attacks on civilians and civilian areas, use of civilians as human shields, destruction of property, robbery of personal property, attacks on hospitals, medical personnel, and locations with the Red Cross/Red Crescent emblem, among others.
The Commission of Experts added that these practices can “… constitute crimes against humanity and can be assimilated to specific war crimes. Furthermore, such acts could also fall within the meaning of the Genocide Convention.”
www.un.org
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On November 10 2023 10:51 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2023 10:17 Salazarz wrote:But I find it strange that if someone was to call Palestine out for being genocidal maniacs there would be push back, because they are not Hamas is. But no such push back exists the other direction here. This is ridiculous. You can't equate Hamas to 'Palestine' because first of all, there is no 'Palestine', not according to Israel or their Western Allies, at any rate. Hamas is Hamas, and they're dogshit in their methods and ideology, literally every single poster here agrees with that. But more importantly, they do not represent entirety of the Palestinian peoples, or the territories those peoples inhabit. Unlike Hamas, Israel's leadership and armed forces are, in fact, representatives of the entire state of Israel and the peoples living there, and their actions reflect on Israel as a whole. You could say that Hamas is a representative for the Gaza strip, and while I personally don't think that's a 100% fair assessment considering the circumstances, it would be at least somewhat based in reality, but surely there is more to Palestine than the Gaza strip. Also, it's rather weird that you're now calling Hamas 'genocidal' while simultaneously decrying incorrect use of the word 'genocide' in relation to Israel's action. That's like calling Iran or North Korea genocidal nations because they have dudes chanting 'death to America.' Hamas are murderous terrorists, but their calls to exterminate all jews are a rallying cry, not a realistic agenda. Surely if you're such a stickler for definitions, you should be able to recognize that Israel is in no real danger of being actually genocided. Hamas calls to exterminate Jews isn't just a rallying cry. They cannot act on it but the intent is there as we've seen on 7/10.
Surely if the October Hamas attack is enough to determine if they are genocidal people or not, Israel fits that definition ten times over, given the number of Palestinians they have slaughtered over the years? Or is the standard there different because reasons?
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On November 10 2023 13:37 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2023 10:51 RvB wrote:On November 10 2023 10:17 Salazarz wrote:But I find it strange that if someone was to call Palestine out for being genocidal maniacs there would be push back, because they are not Hamas is. But no such push back exists the other direction here. This is ridiculous. You can't equate Hamas to 'Palestine' because first of all, there is no 'Palestine', not according to Israel or their Western Allies, at any rate. Hamas is Hamas, and they're dogshit in their methods and ideology, literally every single poster here agrees with that. But more importantly, they do not represent entirety of the Palestinian peoples, or the territories those peoples inhabit. Unlike Hamas, Israel's leadership and armed forces are, in fact, representatives of the entire state of Israel and the peoples living there, and their actions reflect on Israel as a whole. You could say that Hamas is a representative for the Gaza strip, and while I personally don't think that's a 100% fair assessment considering the circumstances, it would be at least somewhat based in reality, but surely there is more to Palestine than the Gaza strip. Also, it's rather weird that you're now calling Hamas 'genocidal' while simultaneously decrying incorrect use of the word 'genocide' in relation to Israel's action. That's like calling Iran or North Korea genocidal nations because they have dudes chanting 'death to America.' Hamas are murderous terrorists, but their calls to exterminate all jews are a rallying cry, not a realistic agenda. Surely if you're such a stickler for definitions, you should be able to recognize that Israel is in no real danger of being actually genocided. Hamas calls to exterminate Jews isn't just a rallying cry. They cannot act on it but the intent is there as we've seen on 7/10. Surely if the October Hamas attack is enough to determine if they are genocidal people or not, Israel fits that definition ten times over, given the number of Palestinians they have slaughtered over the years? Or is the standard there different because reasons?
The standard is different because Hamas explicitly calls for such a thing in their founding charter, shows they're willing to act on it with these attacks, and has said they'll keep repeating them if they're able to.
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On November 10 2023 13:40 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2023 13:37 Salazarz wrote:On November 10 2023 10:51 RvB wrote:On November 10 2023 10:17 Salazarz wrote:But I find it strange that if someone was to call Palestine out for being genocidal maniacs there would be push back, because they are not Hamas is. But no such push back exists the other direction here. This is ridiculous. You can't equate Hamas to 'Palestine' because first of all, there is no 'Palestine', not according to Israel or their Western Allies, at any rate. Hamas is Hamas, and they're dogshit in their methods and ideology, literally every single poster here agrees with that. But more importantly, they do not represent entirety of the Palestinian peoples, or the territories those peoples inhabit. Unlike Hamas, Israel's leadership and armed forces are, in fact, representatives of the entire state of Israel and the peoples living there, and their actions reflect on Israel as a whole. You could say that Hamas is a representative for the Gaza strip, and while I personally don't think that's a 100% fair assessment considering the circumstances, it would be at least somewhat based in reality, but surely there is more to Palestine than the Gaza strip. Also, it's rather weird that you're now calling Hamas 'genocidal' while simultaneously decrying incorrect use of the word 'genocide' in relation to Israel's action. That's like calling Iran or North Korea genocidal nations because they have dudes chanting 'death to America.' Hamas are murderous terrorists, but their calls to exterminate all jews are a rallying cry, not a realistic agenda. Surely if you're such a stickler for definitions, you should be able to recognize that Israel is in no real danger of being actually genocided. Hamas calls to exterminate Jews isn't just a rallying cry. They cannot act on it but the intent is there as we've seen on 7/10. Surely if the October Hamas attack is enough to determine if they are genocidal people or not, Israel fits that definition ten times over, given the number of Palestinians they have slaughtered over the years? Or is the standard there different because reasons? The standard is different because Hamas explicitly calls for such a thing in their founding charter, shows they're willing to act on it with these attacks, and has said they'll keep repeating them if they're able to.
Less than a third of the population was even alive when the founding charter was made. People's perspectives and the charter has changed since then. Not something I'd sign personally, but it's not the founding charter
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On November 10 2023 13:40 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2023 13:37 Salazarz wrote:On November 10 2023 10:51 RvB wrote:On November 10 2023 10:17 Salazarz wrote:But I find it strange that if someone was to call Palestine out for being genocidal maniacs there would be push back, because they are not Hamas is. But no such push back exists the other direction here. This is ridiculous. You can't equate Hamas to 'Palestine' because first of all, there is no 'Palestine', not according to Israel or their Western Allies, at any rate. Hamas is Hamas, and they're dogshit in their methods and ideology, literally every single poster here agrees with that. But more importantly, they do not represent entirety of the Palestinian peoples, or the territories those peoples inhabit. Unlike Hamas, Israel's leadership and armed forces are, in fact, representatives of the entire state of Israel and the peoples living there, and their actions reflect on Israel as a whole. You could say that Hamas is a representative for the Gaza strip, and while I personally don't think that's a 100% fair assessment considering the circumstances, it would be at least somewhat based in reality, but surely there is more to Palestine than the Gaza strip. Also, it's rather weird that you're now calling Hamas 'genocidal' while simultaneously decrying incorrect use of the word 'genocide' in relation to Israel's action. That's like calling Iran or North Korea genocidal nations because they have dudes chanting 'death to America.' Hamas are murderous terrorists, but their calls to exterminate all jews are a rallying cry, not a realistic agenda. Surely if you're such a stickler for definitions, you should be able to recognize that Israel is in no real danger of being actually genocided. Hamas calls to exterminate Jews isn't just a rallying cry. They cannot act on it but the intent is there as we've seen on 7/10. Surely if the October Hamas attack is enough to determine if they are genocidal people or not, Israel fits that definition ten times over, given the number of Palestinians they have slaughtered over the years? Or is the standard there different because reasons? The standard is different because Hamas explicitly calls for such a thing in their founding charter, shows they're willing to act on it with these attacks, and has said they'll keep repeating them if they're able to.
I mean, Hamas was first and foremost an armed resistance group formed against the Israeli occupation and mistreatment of Palestinians. Seems kind of weird to call Palestinians 'genocidal' when they become radicalized after decades of oppression. Do you also think that Koreans were also a genocidal peoples under Japanese occupation? Or Native Americans? Plenty of them wanted to kill every single white man on the continent, I suppose that makes them the genocidal monsters and not the settlers.
On November 10 2023 15:43 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2023 13:40 RvB wrote:On November 10 2023 13:37 Salazarz wrote:On November 10 2023 10:51 RvB wrote:On November 10 2023 10:17 Salazarz wrote:But I find it strange that if someone was to call Palestine out for being genocidal maniacs there would be push back, because they are not Hamas is. But no such push back exists the other direction here. This is ridiculous. You can't equate Hamas to 'Palestine' because first of all, there is no 'Palestine', not according to Israel or their Western Allies, at any rate. Hamas is Hamas, and they're dogshit in their methods and ideology, literally every single poster here agrees with that. But more importantly, they do not represent entirety of the Palestinian peoples, or the territories those peoples inhabit. Unlike Hamas, Israel's leadership and armed forces are, in fact, representatives of the entire state of Israel and the peoples living there, and their actions reflect on Israel as a whole. You could say that Hamas is a representative for the Gaza strip, and while I personally don't think that's a 100% fair assessment considering the circumstances, it would be at least somewhat based in reality, but surely there is more to Palestine than the Gaza strip. Also, it's rather weird that you're now calling Hamas 'genocidal' while simultaneously decrying incorrect use of the word 'genocide' in relation to Israel's action. That's like calling Iran or North Korea genocidal nations because they have dudes chanting 'death to America.' Hamas are murderous terrorists, but their calls to exterminate all jews are a rallying cry, not a realistic agenda. Surely if you're such a stickler for definitions, you should be able to recognize that Israel is in no real danger of being actually genocided. Hamas calls to exterminate Jews isn't just a rallying cry. They cannot act on it but the intent is there as we've seen on 7/10. Surely if the October Hamas attack is enough to determine if they are genocidal people or not, Israel fits that definition ten times over, given the number of Palestinians they have slaughtered over the years? Or is the standard there different because reasons? The standard is different because Hamas explicitly calls for such a thing in their founding charter, shows they're willing to act on it with these attacks, and has said they'll keep repeating them if they're able to. Less than a third of the population was even alive when the founding charter was made. People's perspectives and the charter has changed since then. Not something I'd sign personally, but it's not the founding charter
Thanks for that link. Doesn't seem to say 'kill all jews' anywhere in there, interestingly enough.
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I don't think we have to defend Hamas here. Their charter is awful and they aren't even clear that the new charter is the one they stand by. Plenty of their leaders still seem to think the founding charter is the one to live by. That founding charter is even worse than the new one.
If Hamas was given all the power Israel has, I don't really doubt that they'd try to genocide Israeli jews. But they *don't* have that power. Israel *does* have the power to settle the West Bank and chase 1m Gazans out of their homes as they bomb every building to rubble. And they are using that power, and have been for a long time now. I condemn the atrocities Hamas committed on October 7. However, it doesn't justify Israel's response in Gaza, let alone their actions in the West Bank, a ramping up of which predates October.
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Canada11279 Posts
Do you also think that Koreans were also a genocidal peoples under Japanese occupation? Or Native Americans? Plenty of them wanted to kill every single white man on the continent, I suppose that makes them the genocidal monsters and not the settlers.
Isn't that actually one way genocide does happen though? Hutus are oppressed by the imperialists and by proxy the Tutsi who were favoured by the imperialists. Hatred builds (but no power for the hatred to be efficacious.) Yet once the colonial military force bogs off, out comes the machetes and we choke out the rivers with dead bodies. Resentment of the oppressed absolutely can be a path to genocide if given free reign, can it not?
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On November 10 2023 10:53 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2023 10:36 Nebuchad wrote:Only one that's problematic is 5th one by me, the rest are totally fine. I had a worse one than this btw, you missed it I know you have worse. I just took one to prove the point. It's not my job.
Several of these comments seem to be about Israel's bombardment of and invasion into Gaza, not the occupation of the West bank. You'd have to ask them what they mean with their claims of genocide.
Also, these are specific posters, not a general consensus of people in this thread. I haven't noticed an accusation of genocide from people like Drone, KwarK, myself, and many others.
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On November 10 2023 16:32 Acrofales wrote:
I don't think we have to defend Hamas here. Their charter is awful and they aren't even clear that the new charter is the one they stand by. Plenty of their leaders still seem to think the founding charter is the one to live by. That founding charter is even worse than the new one.
If Hamas was given all the power Israel has, I don't really doubt that they'd try to genocide Israeli jews. But they *don't* have that power. Israel *does* have the power to settle the West Bank and chase 1m Gazans out of their homes as they bomb every building to rubble. And they are using that power, and have been for a long time now. I condemn the atrocities Hamas committed on October 7. However, it doesn't justify Israel's response in Gaza, let alone their actions in the West Bank, a ramping up of which predates October.
I'm not defending Hamas. They're a terrorist organization that commits murder and destruction, and that's bad. But they're not doing that because they picked Chaotic Evil as their alignment when they were figuring out what to do in the pre session, or because Palestinians are inherently bad people, or because Islam is a religion of killing and violence, or whatever. They're born out of circumstance. Hamas is a perfect example of 'violence begets violence' -- statements like 'they'd kill all the jews had they the power to do so' are pointless tautology because if Palestine had the power to kill all the jews, Hamas wouldn't have existed in the first place. They came to be precisely because Palestinians are powerless to change their circumstances and because of the suffering inflicted upon them. One of most decorated Israeli's, Ehud Barak, once famously said that if he were born Palestinian, he'd be a terrorist. That doesn't mean he thought terrorists are good people, but you have to understand where they are coming from if you are to have any chance of actually ending the conflict.
Isn't that actually one way genocide does happen though? Hutus are oppressed by the imperialists and by proxy the Tutsi who were favoured by the imperialists. Hatred builds (but no power for the hatred to be efficacious.) Yet once the colonial military force bogs off, out comes the machetes and we choke out the rivers with dead bodies. Resentment of the oppressed absolutely can be a path to genocide if given free reign, can it not?
I don't know nearly enough about that conflict to really discuss it in any detail whatsoever, but I mean, it's not as if anyone here is saying that Hamas should be given free reign to kill with impunity; and I decidedly disagree with the idea some folks here seem to have that Palestinians would just keep hating and killing jews had they been given a proper state and a way to live their lives in peace.
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On November 09 2023 03:56 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2023 03:44 Godwrath wrote:On November 09 2023 03:40 JimmiC wrote:On November 09 2023 03:32 Magic Powers wrote:On November 09 2023 03:24 JimmiC wrote:On November 09 2023 03:17 Gorsameth wrote:On November 09 2023 03:02 JimmiC wrote:On November 09 2023 01:39 Sent. wrote:On November 09 2023 00:20 RvB wrote:An article from the BBC about a call Israel made to a Palestinian doctor warning about airstrikes in Gaza. It gives a good insight into how it works. I've only copied the first few paragraphs from the article. The rest can be found with the link. It was Thursday 19 October at about 06:30, and Israel had been bombing Gaza for 12 days straight.
He'd been in his third-floor, three-bedroom flat in al-Zahra, a middle-class area in the north of the Gaza Strip. Until now, it had been largely untouched by air strikes.
He'd heard a rising clamour outside. People were screaming. "You need to escape," somebody in the street shouted, "because they will bomb the towers".
As he left his building and crossed the road, looking for a safe place, his phone lit up.
It was a call from a private number.
"I'm speaking with you from Israeli intelligence," a man said down the line, according to Mahmoud.
That call would last more than an hour - and it would be the most terrifying call of his life. www.bbc.com This is such a weird interaction. What's the point of destroying those buildings after allowing their inhabitants to evacuate? Is this about destroying combat equipment potentially stored in the buildings? You can't expect to kill your enemies like this so I can't come up with any other rational explanation. Some of it is to destroy equipment, some of it is to destroy spots where militants can hide, a lot of it is to destroy entrances to the massive tunnel system. Odd choice to warn people you want to ethnically cleanse when warning allows everyone including the militants to flee. A reminder that ethnic cleansing doesn't just cover killing, but also includes forced displacement. But forced displacement alone does not mean ethnic cleansing. And certainly not genocide which is also being used freely. I think you might want to look up the definition of ethnic cleansing. "Forced displacement" (of an ethnic group) is the first thing that comes up. Yes if they end up forcing all Palestinians out of Gaza that would be ethnic cleansing. That many of you believe it is fact that is the goal is not in fact a fact. Only if it's displacing all of them right? If it's (all - 1) it's not ethnic cleanse. I just want to point out that "ethnic cleansing" itself is a gad damn euphemism. What we're actually talking about is the terrorizing, maiming, and mass killing of civilians (largely innocent children) forcing them to leave and in West Bank literally openly stealing their homes with military support. Israel has clearly given Palestinians an ultimatum of ethnic cleansing or genocide and seems willing to go through with either should no one stop them (and that's basically limited to Hamas, Palestinian civilians, and pro-Palestinian activists currently).
I stand by mine but it's also not specifically calling what Israel is doing is genocide. I have and will characterize it as an ethnic cleansing campaign that the West is (however reluctantly people believe) aiding and abetting.
I would also say that Netanyahu and/or some of his even more radical compatriots can be genocidal without actually effecting a genocide (not personally opining one way or the other really, but meaningful amounts irrefutably are). Also genocides don't happen overnight, preventing them requires identifying precipitating conditions, ethnic cleansing being an important thing to watch out for.
Right now there's a longstanding critical lack of basic human necessities, unending bombs, a ground invasion, thousands of children killed, over a million people internally displaces with literally no where they can currently go.
Hamas probably can't return all the hostages at this point even if they wanted to because Israel may have buried them inaccessibly under rubble. Never mind they might not accept them anyway for fear it would cause the world to more firmly question their ground operation, continued bombing, and refusal for a ceasefire that could facilitate at least a remotely sustainable amount of aid for those basically standing in the streets with nothing left in the world but the clothes on their back and maybe what they could carry.
From my perspective Israel is and has been trying to make Palestinians so desperate to escape the terror Israel is inflicting collectively on the entirety of Gaza that they just flood across Egypt's border for refuge. It seems Israel is willing to keep Palestinians displaced indefinitely, and deprive them of basic human necessities like food and water until "Hamas is defeated" (or the West finally forces them).
All it would take to turn into an effective genocide is for everyone to keep doing what they are already doing (should that be the case I'm sure it'll magically be everyone and no ones fault at once, or even more cynically, all Hamas' fault).
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I said that people denying that there is a ethnical cleanse going on are genocide enablers, not that Israel is commiting genocide. I stand by it, i don't think it's that confusing since most of the time it's a two step ladder, and at the time, people were discussing about letting Israel bomb the hell out of Gaza as a reasonable response "to stop Hamas", yourself included.
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On November 10 2023 15:47 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2023 13:40 RvB wrote:On November 10 2023 13:37 Salazarz wrote:On November 10 2023 10:51 RvB wrote:On November 10 2023 10:17 Salazarz wrote:But I find it strange that if someone was to call Palestine out for being genocidal maniacs there would be push back, because they are not Hamas is. But no such push back exists the other direction here. This is ridiculous. You can't equate Hamas to 'Palestine' because first of all, there is no 'Palestine', not according to Israel or their Western Allies, at any rate. Hamas is Hamas, and they're dogshit in their methods and ideology, literally every single poster here agrees with that. But more importantly, they do not represent entirety of the Palestinian peoples, or the territories those peoples inhabit. Unlike Hamas, Israel's leadership and armed forces are, in fact, representatives of the entire state of Israel and the peoples living there, and their actions reflect on Israel as a whole. You could say that Hamas is a representative for the Gaza strip, and while I personally don't think that's a 100% fair assessment considering the circumstances, it would be at least somewhat based in reality, but surely there is more to Palestine than the Gaza strip. Also, it's rather weird that you're now calling Hamas 'genocidal' while simultaneously decrying incorrect use of the word 'genocide' in relation to Israel's action. That's like calling Iran or North Korea genocidal nations because they have dudes chanting 'death to America.' Hamas are murderous terrorists, but their calls to exterminate all jews are a rallying cry, not a realistic agenda. Surely if you're such a stickler for definitions, you should be able to recognize that Israel is in no real danger of being actually genocided. Hamas calls to exterminate Jews isn't just a rallying cry. They cannot act on it but the intent is there as we've seen on 7/10. Surely if the October Hamas attack is enough to determine if they are genocidal people or not, Israel fits that definition ten times over, given the number of Palestinians they have slaughtered over the years? Or is the standard there different because reasons? The standard is different because Hamas explicitly calls for such a thing in their founding charter, shows they're willing to act on it with these attacks, and has said they'll keep repeating them if they're able to. I mean, Hamas was first and foremost an armed resistance group formed against the Israeli occupation and mistreatment of Palestinians. Seems kind of weird to call Palestinians 'genocidal' when they become radicalized after decades of oppression. Do you also think that Koreans were also a genocidal peoples under Japanese occupation? Or Native Americans? Plenty of them wanted to kill every single white man on the continent, I suppose that makes them the genocidal monsters and not the settlers. Show nested quote +On November 10 2023 15:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 10 2023 13:40 RvB wrote:On November 10 2023 13:37 Salazarz wrote:On November 10 2023 10:51 RvB wrote:On November 10 2023 10:17 Salazarz wrote:But I find it strange that if someone was to call Palestine out for being genocidal maniacs there would be push back, because they are not Hamas is. But no such push back exists the other direction here. This is ridiculous. You can't equate Hamas to 'Palestine' because first of all, there is no 'Palestine', not according to Israel or their Western Allies, at any rate. Hamas is Hamas, and they're dogshit in their methods and ideology, literally every single poster here agrees with that. But more importantly, they do not represent entirety of the Palestinian peoples, or the territories those peoples inhabit. Unlike Hamas, Israel's leadership and armed forces are, in fact, representatives of the entire state of Israel and the peoples living there, and their actions reflect on Israel as a whole. You could say that Hamas is a representative for the Gaza strip, and while I personally don't think that's a 100% fair assessment considering the circumstances, it would be at least somewhat based in reality, but surely there is more to Palestine than the Gaza strip. Also, it's rather weird that you're now calling Hamas 'genocidal' while simultaneously decrying incorrect use of the word 'genocide' in relation to Israel's action. That's like calling Iran or North Korea genocidal nations because they have dudes chanting 'death to America.' Hamas are murderous terrorists, but their calls to exterminate all jews are a rallying cry, not a realistic agenda. Surely if you're such a stickler for definitions, you should be able to recognize that Israel is in no real danger of being actually genocided. Hamas calls to exterminate Jews isn't just a rallying cry. They cannot act on it but the intent is there as we've seen on 7/10. Surely if the October Hamas attack is enough to determine if they are genocidal people or not, Israel fits that definition ten times over, given the number of Palestinians they have slaughtered over the years? Or is the standard there different because reasons? The standard is different because Hamas explicitly calls for such a thing in their founding charter, shows they're willing to act on it with these attacks, and has said they'll keep repeating them if they're able to. Less than a third of the population was even alive when the founding charter was made. People's perspectives and the charter has changed since then. Not something I'd sign personally, but it's not the founding charter Thanks for that link. Doesn't seem to say 'kill all jews' anywhere in there, interestingly enough.
I'm calling Hamas genocidal not Palestinians in general. I understand where the confusion is coming from considering the context of your post. I was only really responding to your comment that it's only a rallying cry. Armed resistance also does not require a claim to the whole territory of what is now Israel or barbaric attacks on the level we've seen.
On November 10 2023 15:43 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2023 13:40 RvB wrote:On November 10 2023 13:37 Salazarz wrote:On November 10 2023 10:51 RvB wrote:On November 10 2023 10:17 Salazarz wrote:But I find it strange that if someone was to call Palestine out for being genocidal maniacs there would be push back, because they are not Hamas is. But no such push back exists the other direction here. This is ridiculous. You can't equate Hamas to 'Palestine' because first of all, there is no 'Palestine', not according to Israel or their Western Allies, at any rate. Hamas is Hamas, and they're dogshit in their methods and ideology, literally every single poster here agrees with that. But more importantly, they do not represent entirety of the Palestinian peoples, or the territories those peoples inhabit. Unlike Hamas, Israel's leadership and armed forces are, in fact, representatives of the entire state of Israel and the peoples living there, and their actions reflect on Israel as a whole. You could say that Hamas is a representative for the Gaza strip, and while I personally don't think that's a 100% fair assessment considering the circumstances, it would be at least somewhat based in reality, but surely there is more to Palestine than the Gaza strip. Also, it's rather weird that you're now calling Hamas 'genocidal' while simultaneously decrying incorrect use of the word 'genocide' in relation to Israel's action. That's like calling Iran or North Korea genocidal nations because they have dudes chanting 'death to America.' Hamas are murderous terrorists, but their calls to exterminate all jews are a rallying cry, not a realistic agenda. Surely if you're such a stickler for definitions, you should be able to recognize that Israel is in no real danger of being actually genocided. Hamas calls to exterminate Jews isn't just a rallying cry. They cannot act on it but the intent is there as we've seen on 7/10. Surely if the October Hamas attack is enough to determine if they are genocidal people or not, Israel fits that definition ten times over, given the number of Palestinians they have slaughtered over the years? Or is the standard there different because reasons? The standard is different because Hamas explicitly calls for such a thing in their founding charter, shows they're willing to act on it with these attacks, and has said they'll keep repeating them if they're able to. Less than a third of the population was even alive when the founding charter was made. People's perspectives and the charter has changed since then. Not something I'd sign personally, but it's not the founding charter
I don't see how the percentage of Palestinians that were alive when the document was written is relevant. People who join now still subscribe to it. It's their founding document and not superseded by the one you linked. I guess the more recent one does not literally call for the killing of Jews. It's just calling for the destruction of Israel by whatever means necessary. I wonder what that means?
On November 10 2023 18:04 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2023 10:53 RvB wrote:On November 10 2023 10:36 Nebuchad wrote:Only one that's problematic is 5th one by me, the rest are totally fine. I had a worse one than this btw, you missed it I know you have worse. I just took one to prove the point. It's not my job. Several of these comments seem to be about Israel's bombardment of and invasion into Gaza, not the occupation of the West bank. You'd have to ask them what they mean with their claims of genocide. Also, these are specific posters, not a general consensus of people in this thread. I haven't noticed an accusation of genocide from people like Drone, KwarK, myself, and many others.
I did not say it's a consensus in the thread or even a majority opinion.
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On November 10 2023 05:31 JimmiC wrote:
Let me flip my question around. Was the USA guilty of genocide when in used Nuclear bombs on Japan?
Were the allies guilty of genocide with their massive bombing campaigns on Germany?
I mean sometimes it doesn't matter if we can't agree on which exact word to use
We can search long enough & find words like atrociouty, genocide, crime against humanity, ect..
It is not that important.
I find it more eye opening to think about how little most of the worlds population thinks about the a bomb drops on Japan as being a truly horrible thing compared to all these acts of terrorism that are much smaller. (I'm talking numbers of casualties)
I mean.. Manufacturing consent..
It is extremely clear that it is in fact the winner who writes history..
It is complicated enough.
That is partly why I'm really disgusted you played the 'u are Antisemites card'.. In a TL. Net thread..
And no I won't act as if u did not.
You sure may flood this topic with a unreal high amount of posts.. Won't change how low you sink when you feel like you were beaten by arguments
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I wouldn't be able to point out a single person in this thread who'd fit the description of a Hamas apologist.
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EPT
