|
NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. |
Northern Ireland27463 Posts
On June 28 2025 08:18 RJGooner wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2025 03:48 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Yeah it's a complete atrocity in every way and there's absolutely no defense whatsoever for Israel's behavior and if you even attempt it at this point, you're genuinely just a huge piece of shit. It's quite a damning article. The IDF will investigate and has quite a robust process for doing so through the military advocate general (I believe it has already been ordered). Let's see what they come up with. If the claims are true there will be prosecutions for war crimes coming (as there should be). If your claim is that Israel's prosecution of the war in general has absolutely no defense then I strongly disagree and I don't think that makes me or anyone else a huge piece of shit.
I’ll believe it when I see it. Israel does not exactly have a storied record in prosecuting war crimes. They’re not unique in this regard, my own nation is pretty shit here. Most seem to be, far as I can tell, and for reasons I really don’t get.
One thing that confuses me is the whole setup in the first place. And by confuse I mean ‘something that completely makes sense through a certain lens.’
If ever there is a use case for a combination of established, ostensibly neutral, international aid organisations, with international peacekeepers to oversee and to maintain order, this sure as fuck seems like one. Or at least be there in an observational capacity.
Israel seem to be me to have made a concerted effort to keep international aid, human rights and journalists at arms length in certain areas and scenarios. And there can only really be two explanations for that. Israeli authorities genuinely believe that all these third parties are biased and out to smear them, or Israeli authorities don’t want third party eyes on some of their operations.
Linked from the article up the page, this is a bit suspect to me: How Netanyahu's Office Chose a U.S. Firm With No Aid Experience to Run Gaza Food Project Behind Israeli Army's Back - Haaretz
|
On June 28 2025 09:36 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2025 08:18 RJGooner wrote:On June 28 2025 03:48 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Yeah it's a complete atrocity in every way and there's absolutely no defense whatsoever for Israel's behavior and if you even attempt it at this point, you're genuinely just a huge piece of shit. It's quite a damning article. The IDF will investigate and has quite a robust process for doing so through the military advocate general (I believe it has already been ordered). Let's see what they come up with. If the claims are true there will be prosecutions for war crimes coming (as there should be). If your claim is that Israel's prosecution of the war in general has absolutely no defense then I strongly disagree and I don't think that makes me or anyone else a huge piece of shit. I’ll believe it when I see it. Israel does not exactly have a storied record in prosecuting war crimes. They’re not unique in this regard, my own nation is pretty shit here. Most seem to be, far as I can tell, and for reasons I really don’t get.
Not sure I agree. The military advocate general mechanism within the IDF has been at the very least recognized as on-par with pretty much every western military. They do launch investigations and they do punish IDF soldiers up to and including time in prison. Just because the investigations take time and not all end in prison time doesn't mean they don't work.
One thing that confuses me is the whole setup in the first place. And by confuse I mean ‘something that completely makes sense through a certain lens.’
If ever there is a use case for a combination of established, ostensibly neutral, international aid organisations, with international peacekeepers to oversee and to maintain order, this sure as fuck seems like one. Or at least be there in an observational capacity
Israel seem to be me to have made a concerted effort to keep international aid, human rights and journalists at arms length in certain areas and scenarios. And there can only really be two explanations for that. Israeli authorities genuinely believe that all these third parties are biased and out to smear them, or Israeli authorities don’t want third party eyes on some of their operations
International aid organizations have been actively engaged in Gaza. I won't say they've been neutral because there have been clear instances where they've put out false information about the situation on the ground. The reason the GHF exists is because Hamas has used international aid distribution as a means to sustain itself and its war effort. That being said the rollout of the GHF has been terribly mismanaged.
The part on international journalists not being allowed in is less defensible in my mind. Even though there would again be the challenge of security (they would likely have to be embedded in IDF units) I think this continues to be a major mistake.
|
Northern Ireland27463 Posts
On June 28 2025 10:42 RJGooner wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2025 09:36 WombaT wrote:On June 28 2025 08:18 RJGooner wrote:On June 28 2025 03:48 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Yeah it's a complete atrocity in every way and there's absolutely no defense whatsoever for Israel's behavior and if you even attempt it at this point, you're genuinely just a huge piece of shit. It's quite a damning article. The IDF will investigate and has quite a robust process for doing so through the military advocate general (I believe it has already been ordered). Let's see what they come up with. If the claims are true there will be prosecutions for war crimes coming (as there should be). If your claim is that Israel's prosecution of the war in general has absolutely no defense then I strongly disagree and I don't think that makes me or anyone else a huge piece of shit. I’ll believe it when I see it. Israel does not exactly have a storied record in prosecuting war crimes. They’re not unique in this regard, my own nation is pretty shit here. Most seem to be, far as I can tell, and for reasons I really don’t get. Not sure I agree. The military advocate general mechanism within the IDF has been at the very least recognized as on-par with pretty much every western military. They do launch investigations and they do punish IDF soldiers up to and including time in prison. Just because the investigations take time and not all end in prison time doesn't mean they don't work. Show nested quote +One thing that confuses me is the whole setup in the first place. And by confuse I mean ‘something that completely makes sense through a certain lens.’
If ever there is a use case for a combination of established, ostensibly neutral, international aid organisations, with international peacekeepers to oversee and to maintain order, this sure as fuck seems like one. Or at least be there in an observational capacity
Israel seem to be me to have made a concerted effort to keep international aid, human rights and journalists at arms length in certain areas and scenarios. And there can only really be two explanations for that. Israeli authorities genuinely believe that all these third parties are biased and out to smear them, or Israeli authorities don’t want third party eyes on some of their operations International aid organizations have been actively engaged in Gaza. I won't say they've been neutral because there have been clear instances where they've put out false information about the situation on the ground. The reason the GHF exists is because Hamas has used international aid distribution as a means to sustain itself and its war effort. That being said the rollout of the GHF has been terribly mismanaged. The part on international journalists not being allowed in is less defensible in my mind. Even though there would again be the challenge of security (they would likely have to be embedded in IDF units) I think this continues to be a major mistake.
As I said in my post, they probably are on par. Just par is preposterously low. The UK is shit at it as well. They’re happy to ignore accusations of the SAS in Afghanistan, hell they still won’t prosecute the soldiers who shot civilians in the back on Bloody Sunday. Disgraceful to me, but many ‘patriots’ are the biggest defenders of these cunts.
I don’t trust Chat GPT as far as I can throw it, but it can be a decent aggregator, based on my enquiries about Israeli prosecutions ending in sanction for IDF personnel, it’s about 1% versus what’s initially raised. And some successful prosecutions have extremely lenient censure based on what they’re actually convicted of. Those numbers seem to check out when zoning in on the sources, but as I said I don’t trust AI it’s just a lot quicker than cross-referencing.
As an outsider, OK let’s go with the idea that previous aid regimes were flawed. GHF doesn’t seem the best alternative option if one is actually concerned with having some neutral distributor and overseer.
Bloody Sunday was a singular, epochal event over here in the Troubles. If even the purported numbers are correct (excluding potential mitigating factors), the IDF are routinely killing multiples of that event, at aid sites, regularly.
There’s really no defence for that, unless these purported casualties are completely fabricated, if these deaths never actually occurred.
If they did, either the IDF is playing fast and loose, or are too incompetent to manage the situation without killing people and both are contemptible.
|
Northern Ireland27463 Posts
On June 28 2025 08:30 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2025 03:48 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Yeah it's a complete atrocity in every way and there's absolutely no defense whatsoever for Israel's behavior and if you even attempt it at this point, you're genuinely just a huge piece of shit. Couldn't agree more.
Couldn’t agree more.
|
They'll investigate themselves and find fairly little of anything.
|
On June 28 2025 11:16 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2025 10:42 RJGooner wrote:On June 28 2025 09:36 WombaT wrote:On June 28 2025 08:18 RJGooner wrote:On June 28 2025 03:48 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Yeah it's a complete atrocity in every way and there's absolutely no defense whatsoever for Israel's behavior and if you even attempt it at this point, you're genuinely just a huge piece of shit. It's quite a damning article. The IDF will investigate and has quite a robust process for doing so through the military advocate general (I believe it has already been ordered). Let's see what they come up with. If the claims are true there will be prosecutions for war crimes coming (as there should be). If your claim is that Israel's prosecution of the war in general has absolutely no defense then I strongly disagree and I don't think that makes me or anyone else a huge piece of shit. I’ll believe it when I see it. Israel does not exactly have a storied record in prosecuting war crimes. They’re not unique in this regard, my own nation is pretty shit here. Most seem to be, far as I can tell, and for reasons I really don’t get. Not sure I agree. The military advocate general mechanism within the IDF has been at the very least recognized as on-par with pretty much every western military. They do launch investigations and they do punish IDF soldiers up to and including time in prison. Just because the investigations take time and not all end in prison time doesn't mean they don't work. One thing that confuses me is the whole setup in the first place. And by confuse I mean ‘something that completely makes sense through a certain lens.’
If ever there is a use case for a combination of established, ostensibly neutral, international aid organisations, with international peacekeepers to oversee and to maintain order, this sure as fuck seems like one. Or at least be there in an observational capacity
Israel seem to be me to have made a concerted effort to keep international aid, human rights and journalists at arms length in certain areas and scenarios. And there can only really be two explanations for that. Israeli authorities genuinely believe that all these third parties are biased and out to smear them, or Israeli authorities don’t want third party eyes on some of their operations International aid organizations have been actively engaged in Gaza. I won't say they've been neutral because there have been clear instances where they've put out false information about the situation on the ground. The reason the GHF exists is because Hamas has used international aid distribution as a means to sustain itself and its war effort. That being said the rollout of the GHF has been terribly mismanaged. The part on international journalists not being allowed in is less defensible in my mind. Even though there would again be the challenge of security (they would likely have to be embedded in IDF units) I think this continues to be a major mistake. As I said in my post, they probably are on par. Just par is preposterously low. The UK is shit at it as well. They’re happy to ignore accusations of the SAS in Afghanistan, hell they still won’t prosecute the soldiers who shot civilians in the back on Bloody Sunday. Disgraceful to me, but many ‘patriots’ are the biggest defenders of these cunts. I don’t trust Chat GPT as far as I can throw it, but it can be a decent aggregator, based on my enquiries about Israeli prosecutions ending in sanction for IDF personnel, it’s about 1% versus what’s initially raised. And some successful prosecutions have extremely lenient censure based on what they’re actually convicted of. Those numbers seem to check out when zoning in on the sources, but as I said I don’t trust AI it’s just a lot quicker than cross-referencing. As an outsider, OK let’s go with the idea that previous aid regimes were flawed. GHF doesn’t seem the best alternative option if one is actually concerned with having some neutral distributor and overseer. Bloody Sunday was a singular, epochal event over here in the Troubles. If even the purported numbers are correct (excluding potential mitigating factors), the IDF are routinely killing multiples of that event, at aid sites, regularly. There’s really no defence for that, unless these purported casualties are completely fabricated, if these deaths never actually occurred. If they did, either the IDF is playing fast and loose, or are too incompetent to manage the situation without killing people and both are contemptible.
I can't really seem to find a specific number either. It looks like that 1% number may be for a period between 2017 and 2021 but I'm not fully sure. Even granting that the percentage is low, it still shows that the IDF is willing to investigate and punish its soldiers and commanders if there is a violation of international law or other abuses. I imagine it is incredibly difficult to actually criminally prosecute soldiers themselves except in egregious cases because war is chaotic, intelligence is imperfect, and it is difficult to establish intent.
The point of the GHF isn't about having a neutral distributor. It's about setting up a mechanism to ensure that aid gets distributed without Hamas being able to hijack it and use it to sustain itself. I see the logic behind it even if I think the actual operation has been extremely flawed. I actually wish the UN-based agencies would find a way to work with it instead of attacking it.
You're right that Palestinians have been killed trying to get to the aid sites. I don't think we have a good handle at this moment on who is responsible for what incident (Hamas has been known to attack its own civilians and has murdered people for cooperating with GHF) or what the numbers actually are. I certainly don't trust any figure that the Ministry of Health puts out. That being said, it doesn't seem arguable to me that IDF soldiers have killed people trying to get to aid sites. If that is established, I hope every single one of those soldiers and their commanders are held accountable.
|
United Kingdom10007 Posts
I don't really understand how the Israeli government can investigate and prosecute people for doing exactly what they are supposed to be doing and are basically ordered to do by people in the Israeli government.
|
Why aren't you asking for Hamas to surrender and release the hostages to stop the genocide?
|
On June 30 2025 07:22 baal wrote:
Why aren't you asking for Hamas to surrender and release the hostages to stop the genocide?
Would you like to speak to the manager of Hamas
(Possibly not the best last message to post before going through US customs but here we go)
|
Northern Ireland27463 Posts
On June 30 2025 07:28 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2025 07:22 baal wrote:
Why aren't you asking for Hamas to surrender and release the hostages to stop the genocide? Would you like to speak to the manager of Hamas (Possibly not the best last message to post before going through US customs but here we go)
So what you’re saying is, all we need is the world’s biggest Karen and it’ll be sweet?
|
I mean it sounds overly simplistic but it would instantly take the justification/excuse from the IDF and could only make it better for the Palestinians. At least a bunch would get released from prison. Trump wants another ceasefire so he would put whatever pressure he is capable of.
Likely the best option.
|
On June 30 2025 07:28 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2025 07:22 baal wrote:
Why aren't you asking for Hamas to surrender and release the hostages to stop the genocide? Would you like to speak to the manager of Hamas (Possibly not the best last message to post before going through US customs but here we go)
Would you like to speak to the manager of Israel?
|
On June 30 2025 11:05 baal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2025 07:28 Nebuchad wrote:On June 30 2025 07:22 baal wrote:
Why aren't you asking for Hamas to surrender and release the hostages to stop the genocide? Would you like to speak to the manager of Hamas (Possibly not the best last message to post before going through US customs but here we go) Would you like to speak to the manager of Israel?
No? Just send him to The Hague or hang him upside down, both options are fine with me
|
I assumed you wanted to stop the genocide, not just to kill Netanyahu and making evasive posts, my bad.
|
On June 30 2025 11:59 baal wrote:
I assumed you wanted to stop the genocide, not just to kill Netanyahu and making evasive posts, my bad.
Generally when a genocide happens I tend to think that the people who do the genocide should be punished, yeah. That's a trait I share with everyone who isn't morally repugnant.
|
On June 30 2025 07:22 baal wrote:
Why aren't you asking for Hamas to surrender and release the hostages to stop the genocide?
So having terrorist among them is grounds for genocide in your world? Guess we should murder the whole planet then?
|
On June 30 2025 07:22 baal wrote:
Why aren't you asking for Hamas to surrender and release the hostages to stop the genocide?
Hamas will never comply with anything. They're effectively a death cult and they have absolutely no reason to listen to us.
We can reason with Israel because we actually have relations with them. So we prefer to ask Israel to end the suffering.
|
On June 30 2025 13:52 Broetchenholer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2025 07:22 baal wrote:
Why aren't you asking for Hamas to surrender and release the hostages to stop the genocide? So having terrorist among them is grounds for genocide in your world? Guess we should murder the whole planet then?
No, but if some jews kindapped random germans in 1939 and Hitler said he wanted them released and for the captors to surrender to stop the camps then I'd be like: damn, comply asap ffs.
|
On June 30 2025 16:29 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2025 07:22 baal wrote:
Why aren't you asking for Hamas to surrender and release the hostages to stop the genocide? Hamas will never comply with anything. They're effectively a death cult and they have absolutely no reason to listen to us. We can reason with Israel because we actually have relations with them. So we prefer to ask Israel to end the suffering.
Fair point, Hamas won't comply with western demands, but where my point was going is that there is very little demands towards Hamas within the muslim world to deliver the hostages and Hamas is viewed favorably.
Palestine has always served a purpose to wage forever war against Israel, kind of in an alike situation with US and Israel being used as a proxy for the same purpose.
After losing many wars the arabs now know that they can't win a war vs against a US backed Israel and they've also learned that a media war is far more effective and they've done it all throughout the XXIs century, the Palestinian martyrdom its their way to cut off Israel from western military aid and they have been tremendously successful.
Even if you can stop this current war the same thing will keep happening again and again like it has for the last century, and this only ends in two ways, with total annihilation of Israel or with a renaissance of the muslim world, and them demanding the release of the hostages and surrender instead of being stuck in bloodthirsty eternal jihad are the first steps towards this.
|
On July 01 2025 16:42 baal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2025 16:29 Magic Powers wrote:On June 30 2025 07:22 baal wrote:
Why aren't you asking for Hamas to surrender and release the hostages to stop the genocide? Hamas will never comply with anything. They're effectively a death cult and they have absolutely no reason to listen to us. We can reason with Israel because we actually have relations with them. So we prefer to ask Israel to end the suffering. Fair point, Hamas won't comply with western demands, but where my point was going is that there is very little demands towards Hamas within the muslim world to deliver the hostages and Hamas is viewed favorably. Palestine has always served a purpose to wage forever war against Israel, kind of in an alike situation with US and Israel being used as a proxy for the same purpose. After losing many wars the arabs now know that they can't win a war vs against a US backed Israel and they've also learned that a media war is far more effective and they've done it all throughout the XXIs century, the Palestinian martyrdom its their way to cut off Israel from western military aid and they have been tremendously successful. Even if you can stop this current war the same thing will keep happening again and again like it has for the last century, and this only ends in two ways, with total annihilation of Israel or with a renaissance of the muslim world, and them demanding the release of the hostages and surrender instead of being stuck in bloodthirsty eternal jihad are the first steps towards this.
I'd argue Israel's bad rep is entirely caused by Israel's administration and its supporters. Hamas didn't have to do anything. They chose accelerationism and it had an effect, but that doesn't mean Israel would've looked any better if Hamas had stayed put.
The real difference after October 7 is that people suddenly had reason to investigate Israel much deeper. That investigation revealed how rotten their administration truly is. How inhumane, brutal and terroristic it is. Now we know it. But that's entirely the fault of Israel's administration.
If support to Israel gets cut, it's entirely because of Israel's actions.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
