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Norway28674 Posts
On July 01 2025 16:13 baal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2025 13:52 Broetchenholer wrote:On June 30 2025 07:22 baal wrote:
Why aren't you asking for Hamas to surrender and release the hostages to stop the genocide? So having terrorist among them is grounds for genocide in your world? Guess we should murder the whole planet then? No, but if some jews kindapped random germans in 1939 and Hitler said he wanted them released and for the captors to surrender to stop the camps then I'd be like: damn, comply asap ffs.
You'd trust Hitler?
Anyway: Nobody here is supporting Hamas. Nobody here thought october 7th was a good thing. But the hostages being released or not is irrelevant at this point (regarding the broader conflict), the notion that Nethanyahu is in any way motivated by their well-being is silly at best. We're focusing more on criticizing Israel than Hamas not because we think Hamas is better, but because Israel is a 'western' country propped up by western countries (like, you might as well ask 'why aren't you focusing on North Korea' every time there's some freedom issue in a western country), and even if Hamas' intentions are worse than those of Israel, Israel is currently (and has been for a long time) the party causing more suffering. Israeli soldiers themselves are saying it - they're not encountering any opposition anymore, there's nobody shooting back at them in Gaza, but the killing of palestinians continues and the landgrab is accelerating.
And continuing this vein - I have absolutely zero faith in Israel's leadership in terms of them being like 'oh, okay, guess we'll withdraw and try to move towards a solution that's also palatable to Palestinians' if the hostages were freed.
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On July 01 2025 16:13 baal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2025 13:52 Broetchenholer wrote:On June 30 2025 07:22 baal wrote:
Why aren't you asking for Hamas to surrender and release the hostages to stop the genocide? So having terrorist among them is grounds for genocide in your world? Guess we should murder the whole planet then? No, but if some jews kindapped random germans in 1939 and Hitler said he wanted them released and for the captors to surrender to stop the camps then I'd be like: damn, comply asap ffs.
The issue is the camps wouldn't stop. They'd just move faster due to lack of resistance. The idea that the government of Israel cares about about the hostages is missing the plot.
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United States42778 Posts
The occupation isn’t about hostages, it’s about Hamas not being allowed to continue as the government of Gaza. The problem is the same as it’s been for years, if not Hamas then who. I suspect if a pro Palestinian nation like Ireland actually offered to take the job, send an armed peacekeeping force, and repress attacks on Israel then Israel would leap at the chance. But none of them would ever do that.
If Israel were simply punishing Gaza until hostages were returned then that would be abhorrent. But the occupation is not about hostages, it is about not permitting a government that is at war with them to remain in power and continue that war.
The problem is that there isn’t really an exit strategy and the occupation is not being conducted with restraint and respect for human life by the IDF. As always there are no good outcomes.
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On July 01 2025 18:46 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2025 16:13 baal wrote:On June 30 2025 13:52 Broetchenholer wrote:On June 30 2025 07:22 baal wrote:
Why aren't you asking for Hamas to surrender and release the hostages to stop the genocide? So having terrorist among them is grounds for genocide in your world? Guess we should murder the whole planet then? No, but if some jews kindapped random germans in 1939 and Hitler said he wanted them released and for the captors to surrender to stop the camps then I'd be like: damn, comply asap ffs. You'd trust Hitler? Anyway: Nobody here is supporting Hamas. Nobody here thought october 7th was a good thing. But the hostages being released or not is irrelevant at this point (regarding the broader conflict), the notion that Nethanyahu is in any way motivated by their well-being is silly at best. We're focusing more on criticizing Israel than Hamas not because we think Hamas is better, but because Israel is a 'western' country propped up by western countries (like, you might as well ask 'why aren't you focusing on North Korea' every time there's some freedom issue in a western country), and even if Hamas' intentions are worse than those of Israel, Israel is currently (and has been for a long time) the party causing more suffering. Israeli soldiers themselves are saying it - they're not encountering any opposition anymore, there's nobody shooting back at them in Gaza, but the killing of palestinians continues and the landgrab is accelerating. And continuing this vein - I have absolutely zero faith in Israel's leadership in terms of them being like 'oh, okay, guess we'll withdraw and try to move towards a solution that's also palatable to Palestinians' if the hostages were freed.
The reality is Hamas has tons of agency, it is that they don't care about any of the shit that people seem to think they are. They could trade the hostages and have their leadership flee safely to Qatar and get a end to the Israel offensive and prisoner releases in the thousands. And they could have done this for at least the past year.
If you still happen to be one of those people that thinks Hamas cares at all about the Gazans, then answer how you think Oct 7th was designed to further that goal?
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Northern Ireland25476 Posts
On July 02 2025 01:18 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2025 18:46 Liquid`Drone wrote:On July 01 2025 16:13 baal wrote:On June 30 2025 13:52 Broetchenholer wrote:On June 30 2025 07:22 baal wrote:
Why aren't you asking for Hamas to surrender and release the hostages to stop the genocide? So having terrorist among them is grounds for genocide in your world? Guess we should murder the whole planet then? No, but if some jews kindapped random germans in 1939 and Hitler said he wanted them released and for the captors to surrender to stop the camps then I'd be like: damn, comply asap ffs. You'd trust Hitler? Anyway: Nobody here is supporting Hamas. Nobody here thought october 7th was a good thing. But the hostages being released or not is irrelevant at this point (regarding the broader conflict), the notion that Nethanyahu is in any way motivated by their well-being is silly at best. We're focusing more on criticizing Israel than Hamas not because we think Hamas is better, but because Israel is a 'western' country propped up by western countries (like, you might as well ask 'why aren't you focusing on North Korea' every time there's some freedom issue in a western country), and even if Hamas' intentions are worse than those of Israel, Israel is currently (and has been for a long time) the party causing more suffering. Israeli soldiers themselves are saying it - they're not encountering any opposition anymore, there's nobody shooting back at them in Gaza, but the killing of palestinians continues and the landgrab is accelerating. And continuing this vein - I have absolutely zero faith in Israel's leadership in terms of them being like 'oh, okay, guess we'll withdraw and try to move towards a solution that's also palatable to Palestinians' if the hostages were freed. The reality is Hamas has tons of agency, it is that they don't care about any of the shit that people seem to think they are. They could trade the hostages and have their leadership flee safely to Qatar and get a end to the Israel offensive and prisoner releases in the thousands. And they could have done this for at least the past year. If you still happen to be one of those people that thinks Hamas cares at all about the Gazans, then answer how you think Oct 7th was designed to further that goal?
So what?
Hamas has given the worst elements of Israeli society the excuse to perpetrate atrocity. That dam has been broken, perhaps it will be repaired in future.
I’m probably not alone in being extremely skeptical that even if Hamas did x y and z that this stops anytime soon. That settlements stop.
Hamas gambled and lost, heavily, and dragged the lot of the Palestinians down with them. I just don’t think anything Hamas can do now is going to stem the vengeance in the short term.
Whatever Hamas has done, why are scores of people being killed on the regular queuing for aid?
In the early stages of the conflict, yeah a Hamas surrender, fuck off in exile or whatever. Maybe that defuses it. It’s difficult to look at a state that has massacred civilians over such a duration and think they’d just suddenly stop if Hamas wasn’t a thing.
Anyway: Nobody here is supporting Hamas. Nobody here thought october 7th was a good thing
Drone’s already answered your question. Unless someone wants to correct me I don’t think anyone here thinks October 7th was justifiable.
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On July 02 2025 01:40 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2025 01:18 Billyboy wrote:On July 01 2025 18:46 Liquid`Drone wrote:On July 01 2025 16:13 baal wrote:On June 30 2025 13:52 Broetchenholer wrote:On June 30 2025 07:22 baal wrote:
Why aren't you asking for Hamas to surrender and release the hostages to stop the genocide? So having terrorist among them is grounds for genocide in your world? Guess we should murder the whole planet then? No, but if some jews kindapped random germans in 1939 and Hitler said he wanted them released and for the captors to surrender to stop the camps then I'd be like: damn, comply asap ffs. You'd trust Hitler? Anyway: Nobody here is supporting Hamas. Nobody here thought october 7th was a good thing. But the hostages being released or not is irrelevant at this point (regarding the broader conflict), the notion that Nethanyahu is in any way motivated by their well-being is silly at best. We're focusing more on criticizing Israel than Hamas not because we think Hamas is better, but because Israel is a 'western' country propped up by western countries (like, you might as well ask 'why aren't you focusing on North Korea' every time there's some freedom issue in a western country), and even if Hamas' intentions are worse than those of Israel, Israel is currently (and has been for a long time) the party causing more suffering. Israeli soldiers themselves are saying it - they're not encountering any opposition anymore, there's nobody shooting back at them in Gaza, but the killing of palestinians continues and the landgrab is accelerating. And continuing this vein - I have absolutely zero faith in Israel's leadership in terms of them being like 'oh, okay, guess we'll withdraw and try to move towards a solution that's also palatable to Palestinians' if the hostages were freed. The reality is Hamas has tons of agency, it is that they don't care about any of the shit that people seem to think they are. They could trade the hostages and have their leadership flee safely to Qatar and get a end to the Israel offensive and prisoner releases in the thousands. And they could have done this for at least the past year. If you still happen to be one of those people that thinks Hamas cares at all about the Gazans, then answer how you think Oct 7th was designed to further that goal? So what? Hamas has given the worst elements of Israeli society the excuse to perpetrate atrocity. That dam has been broken, perhaps it will be repaired in future. I’m probably not alone in being extremely skeptical that even if Hamas did x y and z that this stops anytime soon. That settlements stop. Hamas gambled and lost, heavily, and dragged the lot of the Palestinians down with them. I just don’t think anything Hamas can do now is going to stem the vengeance in the short term. Whatever Hamas has done, why are scores of people being killed on the regular queuing for aid? In the early stages of the conflict, yeah a Hamas surrender, fuck off in exile or whatever. Maybe that defuses it. It’s difficult to look at a state that has massacred civilians over such a duration and think they’d just suddenly stop if Hamas wasn’t a thing. Show nested quote + Anyway: Nobody here is supporting Hamas. Nobody here thought october 7th was a good thing Drone’s already answered your question. Unless someone wants to correct me I don’t think anyone here thinks October 7th was justifiable.
So what to anything said on this site, none of us have agency and we are all yelling into the wind. Who decided it is alright to talk nonstop about bad Israel but the instant anyone talks about what Hamas can do, and there is lots, then they are bad? It is so strange.
Hamas right now can do lots. They can give back the hostages and leave that would end the war. For the Aid, they could stop taking it and selling it back to the people and hoarding it for their own power. They could stop using the Aid spots as great places to attack because they have lots of human shields.
I didn't ask if it was good or bad, I asked what was the strategy behind it. A totally different question.
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Northern Ireland25476 Posts
I mean like nobody is actually doing that in this thread
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On July 02 2025 03:12 WombaT wrote:
I mean like nobody is actually doing that in this thread
HA!
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On July 02 2025 01:18 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2025 18:46 Liquid`Drone wrote:On July 01 2025 16:13 baal wrote:On June 30 2025 13:52 Broetchenholer wrote:On June 30 2025 07:22 baal wrote:
Why aren't you asking for Hamas to surrender and release the hostages to stop the genocide? So having terrorist among them is grounds for genocide in your world? Guess we should murder the whole planet then? No, but if some jews kindapped random germans in 1939 and Hitler said he wanted them released and for the captors to surrender to stop the camps then I'd be like: damn, comply asap ffs. You'd trust Hitler? Anyway: Nobody here is supporting Hamas. Nobody here thought october 7th was a good thing. But the hostages being released or not is irrelevant at this point (regarding the broader conflict), the notion that Nethanyahu is in any way motivated by their well-being is silly at best. We're focusing more on criticizing Israel than Hamas not because we think Hamas is better, but because Israel is a 'western' country propped up by western countries (like, you might as well ask 'why aren't you focusing on North Korea' every time there's some freedom issue in a western country), and even if Hamas' intentions are worse than those of Israel, Israel is currently (and has been for a long time) the party causing more suffering. Israeli soldiers themselves are saying it - they're not encountering any opposition anymore, there's nobody shooting back at them in Gaza, but the killing of palestinians continues and the landgrab is accelerating. And continuing this vein - I have absolutely zero faith in Israel's leadership in terms of them being like 'oh, okay, guess we'll withdraw and try to move towards a solution that's also palatable to Palestinians' if the hostages were freed. The reality is Hamas has tons of agency, it is that they don't care about any of the shit that people seem to think they are. They could trade the hostages and have their leadership flee safely to Qatar and get a end to the Israel offensive and prisoner releases in the thousands. And they could have done this for at least the past year. If you still happen to be one of those people that thinks Hamas cares at all about the Gazans, then answer how you think Oct 7th was designed to further that goal?
Hamas' leadership hasn't been in Gaza for a good while and they have offered the hostages to end the conflict. Israel isn't interested in that because they want Hamas to surrender, which of course they won't do because they don't trust Israel to not continue doing what they're doing anyway - except then they wouldn't have any resistance.
Hamas made the mistake of thinking Israel would care about the hostages.
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On July 02 2025 05:13 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2025 01:18 Billyboy wrote:On July 01 2025 18:46 Liquid`Drone wrote:On July 01 2025 16:13 baal wrote:On June 30 2025 13:52 Broetchenholer wrote:On June 30 2025 07:22 baal wrote:
Why aren't you asking for Hamas to surrender and release the hostages to stop the genocide? So having terrorist among them is grounds for genocide in your world? Guess we should murder the whole planet then? No, but if some jews kindapped random germans in 1939 and Hitler said he wanted them released and for the captors to surrender to stop the camps then I'd be like: damn, comply asap ffs. You'd trust Hitler? Anyway: Nobody here is supporting Hamas. Nobody here thought october 7th was a good thing. But the hostages being released or not is irrelevant at this point (regarding the broader conflict), the notion that Nethanyahu is in any way motivated by their well-being is silly at best. We're focusing more on criticizing Israel than Hamas not because we think Hamas is better, but because Israel is a 'western' country propped up by western countries (like, you might as well ask 'why aren't you focusing on North Korea' every time there's some freedom issue in a western country), and even if Hamas' intentions are worse than those of Israel, Israel is currently (and has been for a long time) the party causing more suffering. Israeli soldiers themselves are saying it - they're not encountering any opposition anymore, there's nobody shooting back at them in Gaza, but the killing of palestinians continues and the landgrab is accelerating. And continuing this vein - I have absolutely zero faith in Israel's leadership in terms of them being like 'oh, okay, guess we'll withdraw and try to move towards a solution that's also palatable to Palestinians' if the hostages were freed. The reality is Hamas has tons of agency, it is that they don't care about any of the shit that people seem to think they are. They could trade the hostages and have their leadership flee safely to Qatar and get a end to the Israel offensive and prisoner releases in the thousands. And they could have done this for at least the past year. If you still happen to be one of those people that thinks Hamas cares at all about the Gazans, then answer how you think Oct 7th was designed to further that goal? Hamas' leadership hasn't been in Gaza for a good while and they have offered the hostages to end the conflict. Israel isn't interested in that because they want Hamas to surrender, which of course they won't do because they don't trust Israel to not continue doing what they're doing anyway - except then they wouldn't have any resistance. Hamas made the mistake of thinking Israel would care about the hostages.
Yes, they need to offer to leave as well. Which is actually a pretty reasonable demand when their foreign policy is solely you destruction and their last act was to brazenly attack civilians killing a thousand and taking a 100 hostages.
And again you are buying into the myth of resistance sovereignty fighters. If this is them explain the strategy of Oct 7th and how that was meant to help the Gazans.
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On July 02 2025 05:31 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2025 05:13 Gahlo wrote:On July 02 2025 01:18 Billyboy wrote:On July 01 2025 18:46 Liquid`Drone wrote:On July 01 2025 16:13 baal wrote:On June 30 2025 13:52 Broetchenholer wrote:On June 30 2025 07:22 baal wrote:
Why aren't you asking for Hamas to surrender and release the hostages to stop the genocide? So having terrorist among them is grounds for genocide in your world? Guess we should murder the whole planet then? No, but if some jews kindapped random germans in 1939 and Hitler said he wanted them released and for the captors to surrender to stop the camps then I'd be like: damn, comply asap ffs. You'd trust Hitler? Anyway: Nobody here is supporting Hamas. Nobody here thought october 7th was a good thing. But the hostages being released or not is irrelevant at this point (regarding the broader conflict), the notion that Nethanyahu is in any way motivated by their well-being is silly at best. We're focusing more on criticizing Israel than Hamas not because we think Hamas is better, but because Israel is a 'western' country propped up by western countries (like, you might as well ask 'why aren't you focusing on North Korea' every time there's some freedom issue in a western country), and even if Hamas' intentions are worse than those of Israel, Israel is currently (and has been for a long time) the party causing more suffering. Israeli soldiers themselves are saying it - they're not encountering any opposition anymore, there's nobody shooting back at them in Gaza, but the killing of palestinians continues and the landgrab is accelerating. And continuing this vein - I have absolutely zero faith in Israel's leadership in terms of them being like 'oh, okay, guess we'll withdraw and try to move towards a solution that's also palatable to Palestinians' if the hostages were freed. The reality is Hamas has tons of agency, it is that they don't care about any of the shit that people seem to think they are. They could trade the hostages and have their leadership flee safely to Qatar and get a end to the Israel offensive and prisoner releases in the thousands. And they could have done this for at least the past year. If you still happen to be one of those people that thinks Hamas cares at all about the Gazans, then answer how you think Oct 7th was designed to further that goal? Hamas' leadership hasn't been in Gaza for a good while and they have offered the hostages to end the conflict. Israel isn't interested in that because they want Hamas to surrender, which of course they won't do because they don't trust Israel to not continue doing what they're doing anyway - except then they wouldn't have any resistance. Hamas made the mistake of thinking Israel would care about the hostages. Yes, they need to offer to leave as well. Which is actually a pretty reasonable demand when their foreign policy is solely you destruction and their last act was to brazenly attack civilians killing a thousand and taking a 100 hostages.
And again you are buying into the myth of resistance sovereignty fighters. If this is them explain the strategy of Oct 7th and how that was meant to help the Gazans.
Which government are we talking about here? You'll need to be more specific.
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United States42778 Posts
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On May 22 2025 22:46 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2025 08:15 stilt wrote:On May 21 2025 02:36 WombaT wrote:On May 21 2025 02:04 GreenHorizons wrote:
Can someone help me understand how a voter in a western Democracy that voted for the people aiding and abetting the genocide of Palestinians considers their role any less condemnable than they do a Russian soldier's role in Ukraine? This is a silly gotcha attempt. I don’t actually get to vote for the UK’s main parties over here, Labour don’t run due to some historic alliance with the SDLP, the Tories do in a very limited sense. So in terms of swaying policy we have almost no impact whatsoever in terms of UK governments. Intent also matters in terms of complicity. Regardless of who I vote for, I’ve been involved in BDS for years. More than most here I’d wager. If Russian soldier A is super for the prospect of conquering Ukraine, and Russian soldier B is a conscript who doesn’t support what they’re being forced to do, well I’ll judge them differently. Aside from that, it’s a purely moral stance to take either way. Israel/Palestine has absolutely zero impact on us over here really. Some will care, some won’t. Some will care but also go ‘why is this so much worse than all the other conflicts over the globe?’ This seeming desire of yours to pigeonhole everyone who isn’t you into genocide complicity is myopic in the extreme. I’ve boycotted Israeli goods for about 20 years as both my grandfather and paternal aunty have been involved in pro-Palestine activism for decades, and that rubbed off on me. Ineffectual though I feel they are been to many a protest and meeting with Palestinian activists over here. I assume you’ve done this as well. You also consistently agitated against ‘Genocide Joe’ and yeah, probably a small role but actively enabled the election of a much worse regime for the Palestinians. Which you just refuse to own to this day and try to gaslight people about. Centrists have spearhearded themselves the destruction of the law of the state by criminalyzing anti genocide protest and then declaring it futile and "posturing" as you love doing it now. The israel/Palestine question has a massive impact on our society road to fascism and the lead was the democrat party. I don't get what you think anti genocide people should be obliged to vote for genocidal people. Why voting for a party with many candidates funded by aipac and which is leading the repression against you ? From your cosy place in ireland, would you vote for people who want to see you shut up at any cost ? With the climate of fear which is reigning in the french universities under macron's repression of palestinian protest, I don't get why I should vote for him, why I should vote for someone who wants me to shut up ? There is no answer to that. And who is funding and even arming a genocide Wombat ? Did you suddently forget biden's policies ? Oh well, let me remind you, the democrat Joe biden gave a total diplomatic, economic support to israel while selling it billions of weapons. And then he pretends to be different than the republicans ? Like you love to play the uncompromising left card but the democrats and overall the western centrists have fully compromised with a genocidal state. But keep seething about the left as if the people your side designated as political ennemy should give a vote for you. At least they are way more honest than you. I will give them that, there are extremely hypocritical but they don't reach your height, you're the champions, pretending that the victory of the democrat party would have helped in any shape of form the palestinian cause is truly a level of hypocrisy only the hardened centrists can achieve. And I am glad you're thinking the palestinian protesters play a role in your defeat, it means there is still an impact left. I actually don't think it did.
Anyway, that's always the good thing with radicals, contrary to centrists, they're more straightforward. Just like it makes smotrich better at rising concern for the palestinian cause because he is way more honest than netanyahu, after all, it's been a year since he called for reducing the population of gaza to 200k.
And your side give weapons to his side, and you think we have sth in common, oh boy, what a mixt of arrogance, delusion and hypocrisy. I think this is mostly completely incorrect, I don’t expect people to read everything I post on subjects but at least get the gist. 1. A Democratic Presidency may still be shit, and not acceptable to one’s sensibilities. It’s not as bad as the Republican platform though. 2. The US has much more influence here than anyone else outside of Israel itself 3. If you’re outside of Israel and the US, and want to do something, how hardcore the US is on the issue is a huge impediment to realistic action. 4. If that is the case, having #1 be a less shit option is actually rather important, IMO. If #2 is the case, it saps enthusiasm from any nascent movement if it’s sufficiently immovable. Pretending that the Trump administration and a Harris administration are exactly the same is absolutely either dishonest, or an ignorant position. They can, absolutely both be considered unacceptable, but the idea there’s no difference is bonkers. It’s the difference between something that might bend to international pressure, versus something that absolutely won’t. And because the US is the kingmaker here, that’s absolutely going to have impacts everywhere else. A Democratic regime may still be shit, I highly doubt it’s criminalising protests, deporting folks, presenting a peace plan to turn Gaza into some bit of international real estate etc
Why a democratic presidency wouldn't be as bad ? Can you enlighted me rather than advancing stuff without substancial claims ? Unless yours is the "embargo" of 2000 pounds when under the help of america, israel plummeted gaza with 100k tons of bomb just in 2024.
And do you know the history of the democrat administration toward israel ? The ethnic cleansing of 1948 happened under truman who compared himself to the biblical cyrus the great, this fucking nutjob. Or the oslo accords who were sabotaged when clinton asked arafat to not only give up the right to return but to legitimaze the settlements in the west bank while not even giving the palestinian a proper state. Until the abraham accord, the democrat administration has been by far the worst for the palestinian. And nowaday, they actually think they lost the election because of gaza but don't even change their stance. Both in the past and the present the democrat party has been the first ally of Israel.
When biden was giving billion to the idf, elyahou had already talked about sending a nuclear bomb there, smotrich were talking about starving them off and reducing their population to 200k : https://www.lorientlejour.com/article/1362713/un-ministre-israelien-preconise-un-retour-de-colons-a-gaza.html
The likud establishment were already screaming animals animals and still, they got the bombs by the Biden administration.
So, show me some hard proved facts they would have been better than trump, good luck in that btw.
The second point is palestine is over, extermination in gaza is slowly getting carried out and the colonisation in the west bank is rapidly being carried out so it's becoming more and more a historiographical struggle between historian and negationnists.
Manstein managed to present the wehrmacht as a army free of crimes by presenting himself as a moderate and his soldiers as patriots fighting against the communist hordes.
The democrat does the same with the idf, trump and his establishment don't bother as much. Just like my boi smotrich covers himself way less than "bibi". The recognition of genocide will be easier with those idiots than with the "moderates" who are way more vicious about it.
All in all, the democrats can keep losing and blame the arabs they're contributing to slaughter in mena 
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You're not helping yourself by requesting to ban a group larger than yours from the debate. Maybe it's different on this forum or my perception is somehow distorted but Kwark's views are way closer to what most of the normie population believes than your or Nebuchad's views. I think the way your group acts is counterproductive and helps in making it look like your group is the unreasonable one.
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How would you divide land between Israelis and Palestinians?
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What would you suggest be done about these 80% and 47%?
On July 02 2025 06:14 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2025 05:31 Billyboy wrote:On July 02 2025 05:13 Gahlo wrote:On July 02 2025 01:18 Billyboy wrote:On July 01 2025 18:46 Liquid`Drone wrote:On July 01 2025 16:13 baal wrote:On June 30 2025 13:52 Broetchenholer wrote:On June 30 2025 07:22 baal wrote:
Why aren't you asking for Hamas to surrender and release the hostages to stop the genocide? So having terrorist among them is grounds for genocide in your world? Guess we should murder the whole planet then? No, but if some jews kindapped random germans in 1939 and Hitler said he wanted them released and for the captors to surrender to stop the camps then I'd be like: damn, comply asap ffs. You'd trust Hitler? Anyway: Nobody here is supporting Hamas. Nobody here thought october 7th was a good thing. But the hostages being released or not is irrelevant at this point (regarding the broader conflict), the notion that Nethanyahu is in any way motivated by their well-being is silly at best. We're focusing more on criticizing Israel than Hamas not because we think Hamas is better, but because Israel is a 'western' country propped up by western countries (like, you might as well ask 'why aren't you focusing on North Korea' every time there's some freedom issue in a western country), and even if Hamas' intentions are worse than those of Israel, Israel is currently (and has been for a long time) the party causing more suffering. Israeli soldiers themselves are saying it - they're not encountering any opposition anymore, there's nobody shooting back at them in Gaza, but the killing of palestinians continues and the landgrab is accelerating. And continuing this vein - I have absolutely zero faith in Israel's leadership in terms of them being like 'oh, okay, guess we'll withdraw and try to move towards a solution that's also palatable to Palestinians' if the hostages were freed. The reality is Hamas has tons of agency, it is that they don't care about any of the shit that people seem to think they are. They could trade the hostages and have their leadership flee safely to Qatar and get a end to the Israel offensive and prisoner releases in the thousands. And they could have done this for at least the past year. If you still happen to be one of those people that thinks Hamas cares at all about the Gazans, then answer how you think Oct 7th was designed to further that goal? Hamas' leadership hasn't been in Gaza for a good while and they have offered the hostages to end the conflict. Israel isn't interested in that because they want Hamas to surrender, which of course they won't do because they don't trust Israel to not continue doing what they're doing anyway - except then they wouldn't have any resistance. Hamas made the mistake of thinking Israel would care about the hostages. Yes, they need to offer to leave as well. Which is actually a pretty reasonable demand when their foreign policy is solely you destruction and their last act was to brazenly attack civilians killing a thousand and taking a 100 hostages.
And again you are buying into the myth of resistance sovereignty fighters. If this is them explain the strategy of Oct 7th and how that was meant to help the Gazans. Which government are we talking about here? You'll need to be more specific.
Hamas. Odd thing to be confused about, hopefully it was not just deflection with a sweet burn on Netanyahu.
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On July 02 2025 22:49 Sent. wrote:You're not helping yourself by requesting to ban a group larger than yours from the debate. Maybe it's different on this forum or my perception is somehow distorted but Kwark's views are way closer to what most of the normie population believes than your or Nebuchad's views. I think the way your group acts is counterproductive and helps in making it look like your group is the unreasonable one.
And yet everything I've said in this thread for over a year has been vindicated, against people who were consistently wrong, all the time. Off the top of my head I was told that Israel was only after Hamas and didn't want ethnic cleaning, that was wrong. I was told that they were using precise military strikes to hit only terrorists and maybe a few unfortunate civilians around as collateral damage, that was wrong. I was told that they were doing this for the hostages, that was wrong. That they wouldn't hit a hospital, that was wrong. That they were only destroying buildings that had a connexion to Hamas, that was wrong. That they weren't using starvation as a tool of war, that was wrong. That the death count was overstated, that was wrong.
So the question becomes, as none of these people edit their positions in any way to reflect the fact that I am consistently right and they are consistently wrong, what's the appeal of talking about being reasonable? Clearly, like, to the point that it couldn't be clearer, nobody cares, at all, about who is right.
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On July 03 2025 09:32 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2025 22:49 Sent. wrote:You're not helping yourself by requesting to ban a group larger than yours from the debate. Maybe it's different on this forum or my perception is somehow distorted but Kwark's views are way closer to what most of the normie population believes than your or Nebuchad's views. I think the way your group acts is counterproductive and helps in making it look like your group is the unreasonable one. And yet everything I've said in this thread for over a year has been vindicated, against people who were consistently wrong, all the time. Off the top of my head I was told that Israel was only after Hamas and didn't want ethnic cleaning, that was wrong. I was told that they were using precise military strikes to hit only terrorists and maybe a few unfortunate civilians around as collateral damage, that was wrong. I was told that they were doing this for the hostages, that was wrong. That they wouldn't hit a hospital, that was wrong. That they were only destroying buildings that had a connexion to Hamas, that was wrong. That they weren't using starvation as a tool of war, that was wrong. That the death count was overstated, that was wrong. So the question becomes, as none of these people edit their positions in any way to reflect the fact that I am consistently right and they are consistently wrong, what's the appeal of talking about being reasonable? Clearly, like, to the point that it couldn't be clearer, nobody cares, at all, about who is right.
I think you'll struggle to get people to admit that their support for Israel in the beginning of this phase of conflict was only based on moral argument because of convenience, rather than there being an actual moral case to support Israel.
Those moral arguments, you'll notice, have completely gone away at this point as Israel has rolled around in the deepest mud they could find for the last couple of years.
It tells us that there's something deeper in the reasons that people will support Israel. Its not to do with them being on the right side, but just being on our side of some perceived 'us vs the muslims' battle for cultural dominance that touches on local issues around the world.
Hanging on to whatever vestiges remain of the 'Israel has a right to defend itself' bullshit just looks completely deluded at this point, hence the rise of 'well what would you do in their situation?' rhetoric that outright defends ethnic cleansing and slaughter of innocent muslims on the basis that 'they have to do something'.
BTW, https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jul/02/israeli-military-bomb-fragments-gaza-al-baqa-cafe
This is what Israel is up to in Gaza. Massive bombs dropped in civilian areas that spread as much damage over a large area as possible, a weapon specifically designed to indiscriminately maim, mutilate and kill a random selection of people over a large geographical area.
Defend it, I dare you.
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Northern Ireland25476 Posts
On July 02 2025 21:53 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2025 22:46 WombaT wrote:On May 22 2025 08:15 stilt wrote:On May 21 2025 02:36 WombaT wrote:On May 21 2025 02:04 GreenHorizons wrote:
Can someone help me understand how a voter in a western Democracy that voted for the people aiding and abetting the genocide of Palestinians considers their role any less condemnable than they do a Russian soldier's role in Ukraine? This is a silly gotcha attempt. I don’t actually get to vote for the UK’s main parties over here, Labour don’t run due to some historic alliance with the SDLP, the Tories do in a very limited sense. So in terms of swaying policy we have almost no impact whatsoever in terms of UK governments. Intent also matters in terms of complicity. Regardless of who I vote for, I’ve been involved in BDS for years. More than most here I’d wager. If Russian soldier A is super for the prospect of conquering Ukraine, and Russian soldier B is a conscript who doesn’t support what they’re being forced to do, well I’ll judge them differently. Aside from that, it’s a purely moral stance to take either way. Israel/Palestine has absolutely zero impact on us over here really. Some will care, some won’t. Some will care but also go ‘why is this so much worse than all the other conflicts over the globe?’ This seeming desire of yours to pigeonhole everyone who isn’t you into genocide complicity is myopic in the extreme. I’ve boycotted Israeli goods for about 20 years as both my grandfather and paternal aunty have been involved in pro-Palestine activism for decades, and that rubbed off on me. Ineffectual though I feel they are been to many a protest and meeting with Palestinian activists over here. I assume you’ve done this as well. You also consistently agitated against ‘Genocide Joe’ and yeah, probably a small role but actively enabled the election of a much worse regime for the Palestinians. Which you just refuse to own to this day and try to gaslight people about. Centrists have spearhearded themselves the destruction of the law of the state by criminalyzing anti genocide protest and then declaring it futile and "posturing" as you love doing it now. The israel/Palestine question has a massive impact on our society road to fascism and the lead was the democrat party. I don't get what you think anti genocide people should be obliged to vote for genocidal people. Why voting for a party with many candidates funded by aipac and which is leading the repression against you ? From your cosy place in ireland, would you vote for people who want to see you shut up at any cost ? With the climate of fear which is reigning in the french universities under macron's repression of palestinian protest, I don't get why I should vote for him, why I should vote for someone who wants me to shut up ? There is no answer to that. And who is funding and even arming a genocide Wombat ? Did you suddently forget biden's policies ? Oh well, let me remind you, the democrat Joe biden gave a total diplomatic, economic support to israel while selling it billions of weapons. And then he pretends to be different than the republicans ? Like you love to play the uncompromising left card but the democrats and overall the western centrists have fully compromised with a genocidal state. But keep seething about the left as if the people your side designated as political ennemy should give a vote for you. At least they are way more honest than you. I will give them that, there are extremely hypocritical but they don't reach your height, you're the champions, pretending that the victory of the democrat party would have helped in any shape of form the palestinian cause is truly a level of hypocrisy only the hardened centrists can achieve. And I am glad you're thinking the palestinian protesters play a role in your defeat, it means there is still an impact left. I actually don't think it did.
Anyway, that's always the good thing with radicals, contrary to centrists, they're more straightforward. Just like it makes smotrich better at rising concern for the palestinian cause because he is way more honest than netanyahu, after all, it's been a year since he called for reducing the population of gaza to 200k.
And your side give weapons to his side, and you think we have sth in common, oh boy, what a mixt of arrogance, delusion and hypocrisy. I think this is mostly completely incorrect, I don’t expect people to read everything I post on subjects but at least get the gist. 1. A Democratic Presidency may still be shit, and not acceptable to one’s sensibilities. It’s not as bad as the Republican platform though. 2. The US has much more influence here than anyone else outside of Israel itself 3. If you’re outside of Israel and the US, and want to do something, how hardcore the US is on the issue is a huge impediment to realistic action. 4. If that is the case, having #1 be a less shit option is actually rather important, IMO. If #2 is the case, it saps enthusiasm from any nascent movement if it’s sufficiently immovable. Pretending that the Trump administration and a Harris administration are exactly the same is absolutely either dishonest, or an ignorant position. They can, absolutely both be considered unacceptable, but the idea there’s no difference is bonkers. It’s the difference between something that might bend to international pressure, versus something that absolutely won’t. And because the US is the kingmaker here, that’s absolutely going to have impacts everywhere else. A Democratic regime may still be shit, I highly doubt it’s criminalising protests, deporting folks, presenting a peace plan to turn Gaza into some bit of international real estate etc Why a democratic presidency wouldn't be as bad ? Can you enlighted me rather than advancing stuff without substancial claims ? Unless yours is the "embargo" of 2000 pounds when under the help of america, israel plummeted gaza with 100k tons of bomb just in 2024. And do you know the history of the democrat administration toward israel ? The ethnic cleansing of 1948 happened under truman who compared himself to the biblical cyrus the great, this fucking nutjob. Or the oslo accords who were sabotaged when clinton asked arafat to not only give up the right to return but to legitimaze the settlements in the west bank while not even giving the palestinian a proper state. Until the abraham accord, the democrat administration has been by far the worst for the palestinian. And nowaday, they actually think they lost the election because of gaza but don't even change their stance. Both in the past and the present the democrat party has been the first ally of Israel. When biden was giving billion to the idf, elyahou had already talked about sending a nuclear bomb there, smotrich were talking about starving them off and reducing their population to 200k : https://www.lorientlejour.com/article/1362713/un-ministre-israelien-preconise-un-retour-de-colons-a-gaza.htmlThe likud establishment were already screaming animals animals and still, they got the bombs by the Biden administration. So, show me some hard proved facts they would have been better than trump, good luck in that btw. The second point is palestine is over, extermination in gaza is slowly getting carried out and the colonisation in the west bank is rapidly being carried out so it's becoming more and more a historiographical struggle between historian and negationnists. Manstein managed to present the wehrmacht as a army free of crimes by presenting himself as a moderate and his soldiers as patriots fighting against the communist hordes. The democrat does the same with the idf, trump and his establishment don't bother as much. Just like my boi smotrich covers himself way less than "bibi". The recognition of genocide will be easier with those idiots than with the "moderates" who are way more vicious about it. All in all, the democrats can keep losing and blame the arabs they're contributing to slaughter in mena
Not really relevant though. You could save yourself a lot of effort by actually reading my posts. Where I say, pretty much every time that I consider Democratic policy unacceptable.
I’m merely claiming they’d be better than this administration. Which they would have been.
It’s frankly breathtaking how you can know so much about this subject, but yet seemingly be completely unable to read the posts you’re responding to.
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