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Norway28637 Posts
On July 01 2025 16:13 baal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2025 13:52 Broetchenholer wrote:On June 30 2025 07:22 baal wrote:
Why aren't you asking for Hamas to surrender and release the hostages to stop the genocide? So having terrorist among them is grounds for genocide in your world? Guess we should murder the whole planet then? No, but if some jews kindapped random germans in 1939 and Hitler said he wanted them released and for the captors to surrender to stop the camps then I'd be like: damn, comply asap ffs.
You'd trust Hitler?
Anyway: Nobody here is supporting Hamas. Nobody here thought october 7th was a good thing. But the hostages being released or not is irrelevant at this point (regarding the broader conflict), the notion that Nethanyahu is in any way motivated by their well-being is silly at best. We're focusing more on criticizing Israel than Hamas not because we think Hamas is better, but because Israel is a 'western' country propped up by western countries (like, you might as well ask 'why aren't you focusing on North Korea' every time there's some freedom issue in a western country), and even if Hamas' intentions are worse than those of Israel, Israel is currently (and has been for a long time) the party causing more suffering. Israeli soldiers themselves are saying it - they're not encountering any opposition anymore, there's nobody shooting back at them in Gaza, but the killing of palestinians continues and the landgrab is accelerating.
And continuing this vein - I have absolutely zero faith in Israel's leadership in terms of them being like 'oh, okay, guess we'll withdraw and try to move towards a solution that's also palatable to Palestinians' if the hostages were freed.
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On July 01 2025 16:13 baal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2025 13:52 Broetchenholer wrote:On June 30 2025 07:22 baal wrote:
Why aren't you asking for Hamas to surrender and release the hostages to stop the genocide? So having terrorist among them is grounds for genocide in your world? Guess we should murder the whole planet then? No, but if some jews kindapped random germans in 1939 and Hitler said he wanted them released and for the captors to surrender to stop the camps then I'd be like: damn, comply asap ffs.
The issue is the camps wouldn't stop. They'd just move faster due to lack of resistance. The idea that the government of Israel cares about about the hostages is missing the plot.
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United States42531 Posts
The occupation isn’t about hostages, it’s about Hamas not being allowed to continue as the government of Gaza. The problem is the same as it’s been for years, if not Hamas then who. I suspect if a pro Palestinian nation like Ireland actually offered to take the job, send an armed peacekeeping force, and repress attacks on Israel then Israel would leap at the chance. But none of them would ever do that.
If Israel were simply punishing Gaza until hostages were returned then that would be abhorrent. But the occupation is not about hostages, it is about not permitting a government that is at war with them to remain in power and continue that war.
The problem is that there isn’t really an exit strategy and the occupation is not being conducted with restraint and respect for human life by the IDF. As always there are no good outcomes.
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On July 01 2025 18:46 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2025 16:13 baal wrote:On June 30 2025 13:52 Broetchenholer wrote:On June 30 2025 07:22 baal wrote:
Why aren't you asking for Hamas to surrender and release the hostages to stop the genocide? So having terrorist among them is grounds for genocide in your world? Guess we should murder the whole planet then? No, but if some jews kindapped random germans in 1939 and Hitler said he wanted them released and for the captors to surrender to stop the camps then I'd be like: damn, comply asap ffs. You'd trust Hitler? Anyway: Nobody here is supporting Hamas. Nobody here thought october 7th was a good thing. But the hostages being released or not is irrelevant at this point (regarding the broader conflict), the notion that Nethanyahu is in any way motivated by their well-being is silly at best. We're focusing more on criticizing Israel than Hamas not because we think Hamas is better, but because Israel is a 'western' country propped up by western countries (like, you might as well ask 'why aren't you focusing on North Korea' every time there's some freedom issue in a western country), and even if Hamas' intentions are worse than those of Israel, Israel is currently (and has been for a long time) the party causing more suffering. Israeli soldiers themselves are saying it - they're not encountering any opposition anymore, there's nobody shooting back at them in Gaza, but the killing of palestinians continues and the landgrab is accelerating. And continuing this vein - I have absolutely zero faith in Israel's leadership in terms of them being like 'oh, okay, guess we'll withdraw and try to move towards a solution that's also palatable to Palestinians' if the hostages were freed.
The reality is Hamas has tons of agency, it is that they don't care about any of the shit that people seem to think they are. They could trade the hostages and have their leadership flee safely to Qatar and get a end to the Israel offensive and prisoner releases in the thousands. And they could have done this for at least the past year.
If you still happen to be one of those people that thinks Hamas cares at all about the Gazans, then answer how you think Oct 7th was designed to further that goal?
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Northern Ireland25013 Posts
On July 02 2025 01:18 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2025 18:46 Liquid`Drone wrote:On July 01 2025 16:13 baal wrote:On June 30 2025 13:52 Broetchenholer wrote:On June 30 2025 07:22 baal wrote:
Why aren't you asking for Hamas to surrender and release the hostages to stop the genocide? So having terrorist among them is grounds for genocide in your world? Guess we should murder the whole planet then? No, but if some jews kindapped random germans in 1939 and Hitler said he wanted them released and for the captors to surrender to stop the camps then I'd be like: damn, comply asap ffs. You'd trust Hitler? Anyway: Nobody here is supporting Hamas. Nobody here thought october 7th was a good thing. But the hostages being released or not is irrelevant at this point (regarding the broader conflict), the notion that Nethanyahu is in any way motivated by their well-being is silly at best. We're focusing more on criticizing Israel than Hamas not because we think Hamas is better, but because Israel is a 'western' country propped up by western countries (like, you might as well ask 'why aren't you focusing on North Korea' every time there's some freedom issue in a western country), and even if Hamas' intentions are worse than those of Israel, Israel is currently (and has been for a long time) the party causing more suffering. Israeli soldiers themselves are saying it - they're not encountering any opposition anymore, there's nobody shooting back at them in Gaza, but the killing of palestinians continues and the landgrab is accelerating. And continuing this vein - I have absolutely zero faith in Israel's leadership in terms of them being like 'oh, okay, guess we'll withdraw and try to move towards a solution that's also palatable to Palestinians' if the hostages were freed. The reality is Hamas has tons of agency, it is that they don't care about any of the shit that people seem to think they are. They could trade the hostages and have their leadership flee safely to Qatar and get a end to the Israel offensive and prisoner releases in the thousands. And they could have done this for at least the past year. If you still happen to be one of those people that thinks Hamas cares at all about the Gazans, then answer how you think Oct 7th was designed to further that goal?
So what?
Hamas has given the worst elements of Israeli society the excuse to perpetrate atrocity. That dam has been broken, perhaps it will be repaired in future.
I’m probably not alone in being extremely skeptical that even if Hamas did x y and z that this stops anytime soon. That settlements stop.
Hamas gambled and lost, heavily, and dragged the lot of the Palestinians down with them. I just don’t think anything Hamas can do now is going to stem the vengeance in the short term.
Whatever Hamas has done, why are scores of people being killed on the regular queuing for aid?
In the early stages of the conflict, yeah a Hamas surrender, fuck off in exile or whatever. Maybe that defuses it. It’s difficult to look at a state that has massacred civilians over such a duration and think they’d just suddenly stop if Hamas wasn’t a thing.
Anyway: Nobody here is supporting Hamas. Nobody here thought october 7th was a good thing
Drone’s already answered your question. Unless someone wants to correct me I don’t think anyone here thinks October 7th was justifiable.
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On July 02 2025 01:40 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2025 01:18 Billyboy wrote:On July 01 2025 18:46 Liquid`Drone wrote:On July 01 2025 16:13 baal wrote:On June 30 2025 13:52 Broetchenholer wrote:On June 30 2025 07:22 baal wrote:
Why aren't you asking for Hamas to surrender and release the hostages to stop the genocide? So having terrorist among them is grounds for genocide in your world? Guess we should murder the whole planet then? No, but if some jews kindapped random germans in 1939 and Hitler said he wanted them released and for the captors to surrender to stop the camps then I'd be like: damn, comply asap ffs. You'd trust Hitler? Anyway: Nobody here is supporting Hamas. Nobody here thought october 7th was a good thing. But the hostages being released or not is irrelevant at this point (regarding the broader conflict), the notion that Nethanyahu is in any way motivated by their well-being is silly at best. We're focusing more on criticizing Israel than Hamas not because we think Hamas is better, but because Israel is a 'western' country propped up by western countries (like, you might as well ask 'why aren't you focusing on North Korea' every time there's some freedom issue in a western country), and even if Hamas' intentions are worse than those of Israel, Israel is currently (and has been for a long time) the party causing more suffering. Israeli soldiers themselves are saying it - they're not encountering any opposition anymore, there's nobody shooting back at them in Gaza, but the killing of palestinians continues and the landgrab is accelerating. And continuing this vein - I have absolutely zero faith in Israel's leadership in terms of them being like 'oh, okay, guess we'll withdraw and try to move towards a solution that's also palatable to Palestinians' if the hostages were freed. The reality is Hamas has tons of agency, it is that they don't care about any of the shit that people seem to think they are. They could trade the hostages and have their leadership flee safely to Qatar and get a end to the Israel offensive and prisoner releases in the thousands. And they could have done this for at least the past year. If you still happen to be one of those people that thinks Hamas cares at all about the Gazans, then answer how you think Oct 7th was designed to further that goal? So what? Hamas has given the worst elements of Israeli society the excuse to perpetrate atrocity. That dam has been broken, perhaps it will be repaired in future. I’m probably not alone in being extremely skeptical that even if Hamas did x y and z that this stops anytime soon. That settlements stop. Hamas gambled and lost, heavily, and dragged the lot of the Palestinians down with them. I just don’t think anything Hamas can do now is going to stem the vengeance in the short term. Whatever Hamas has done, why are scores of people being killed on the regular queuing for aid? In the early stages of the conflict, yeah a Hamas surrender, fuck off in exile or whatever. Maybe that defuses it. It’s difficult to look at a state that has massacred civilians over such a duration and think they’d just suddenly stop if Hamas wasn’t a thing. Show nested quote + Anyway: Nobody here is supporting Hamas. Nobody here thought october 7th was a good thing Drone’s already answered your question. Unless someone wants to correct me I don’t think anyone here thinks October 7th was justifiable.
So what to anything said on this site, none of us have agency and we are all yelling into the wind. Who decided it is alright to talk nonstop about bad Israel but the instant anyone talks about what Hamas can do, and there is lots, then they are bad? It is so strange.
Hamas right now can do lots. They can give back the hostages and leave that would end the war. For the Aid, they could stop taking it and selling it back to the people and hoarding it for their own power. They could stop using the Aid spots as great places to attack because they have lots of human shields.
I didn't ask if it was good or bad, I asked what was the strategy behind it. A totally different question.
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Northern Ireland25013 Posts
I mean like nobody is actually doing that in this thread
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On July 02 2025 03:12 WombaT wrote:
I mean like nobody is actually doing that in this thread
HA!
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On July 02 2025 01:18 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2025 18:46 Liquid`Drone wrote:On July 01 2025 16:13 baal wrote:On June 30 2025 13:52 Broetchenholer wrote:On June 30 2025 07:22 baal wrote:
Why aren't you asking for Hamas to surrender and release the hostages to stop the genocide? So having terrorist among them is grounds for genocide in your world? Guess we should murder the whole planet then? No, but if some jews kindapped random germans in 1939 and Hitler said he wanted them released and for the captors to surrender to stop the camps then I'd be like: damn, comply asap ffs. You'd trust Hitler? Anyway: Nobody here is supporting Hamas. Nobody here thought october 7th was a good thing. But the hostages being released or not is irrelevant at this point (regarding the broader conflict), the notion that Nethanyahu is in any way motivated by their well-being is silly at best. We're focusing more on criticizing Israel than Hamas not because we think Hamas is better, but because Israel is a 'western' country propped up by western countries (like, you might as well ask 'why aren't you focusing on North Korea' every time there's some freedom issue in a western country), and even if Hamas' intentions are worse than those of Israel, Israel is currently (and has been for a long time) the party causing more suffering. Israeli soldiers themselves are saying it - they're not encountering any opposition anymore, there's nobody shooting back at them in Gaza, but the killing of palestinians continues and the landgrab is accelerating. And continuing this vein - I have absolutely zero faith in Israel's leadership in terms of them being like 'oh, okay, guess we'll withdraw and try to move towards a solution that's also palatable to Palestinians' if the hostages were freed. The reality is Hamas has tons of agency, it is that they don't care about any of the shit that people seem to think they are. They could trade the hostages and have their leadership flee safely to Qatar and get a end to the Israel offensive and prisoner releases in the thousands. And they could have done this for at least the past year. If you still happen to be one of those people that thinks Hamas cares at all about the Gazans, then answer how you think Oct 7th was designed to further that goal?
Hamas' leadership hasn't been in Gaza for a good while and they have offered the hostages to end the conflict. Israel isn't interested in that because they want Hamas to surrender, which of course they won't do because they don't trust Israel to not continue doing what they're doing anyway - except then they wouldn't have any resistance.
Hamas made the mistake of thinking Israel would care about the hostages.
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On July 02 2025 05:13 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2025 01:18 Billyboy wrote:On July 01 2025 18:46 Liquid`Drone wrote:On July 01 2025 16:13 baal wrote:On June 30 2025 13:52 Broetchenholer wrote:On June 30 2025 07:22 baal wrote:
Why aren't you asking for Hamas to surrender and release the hostages to stop the genocide? So having terrorist among them is grounds for genocide in your world? Guess we should murder the whole planet then? No, but if some jews kindapped random germans in 1939 and Hitler said he wanted them released and for the captors to surrender to stop the camps then I'd be like: damn, comply asap ffs. You'd trust Hitler? Anyway: Nobody here is supporting Hamas. Nobody here thought october 7th was a good thing. But the hostages being released or not is irrelevant at this point (regarding the broader conflict), the notion that Nethanyahu is in any way motivated by their well-being is silly at best. We're focusing more on criticizing Israel than Hamas not because we think Hamas is better, but because Israel is a 'western' country propped up by western countries (like, you might as well ask 'why aren't you focusing on North Korea' every time there's some freedom issue in a western country), and even if Hamas' intentions are worse than those of Israel, Israel is currently (and has been for a long time) the party causing more suffering. Israeli soldiers themselves are saying it - they're not encountering any opposition anymore, there's nobody shooting back at them in Gaza, but the killing of palestinians continues and the landgrab is accelerating. And continuing this vein - I have absolutely zero faith in Israel's leadership in terms of them being like 'oh, okay, guess we'll withdraw and try to move towards a solution that's also palatable to Palestinians' if the hostages were freed. The reality is Hamas has tons of agency, it is that they don't care about any of the shit that people seem to think they are. They could trade the hostages and have their leadership flee safely to Qatar and get a end to the Israel offensive and prisoner releases in the thousands. And they could have done this for at least the past year. If you still happen to be one of those people that thinks Hamas cares at all about the Gazans, then answer how you think Oct 7th was designed to further that goal? Hamas' leadership hasn't been in Gaza for a good while and they have offered the hostages to end the conflict. Israel isn't interested in that because they want Hamas to surrender, which of course they won't do because they don't trust Israel to not continue doing what they're doing anyway - except then they wouldn't have any resistance. Hamas made the mistake of thinking Israel would care about the hostages.
Yes, they need to offer to leave as well. Which is actually a pretty reasonable demand when their foreign policy is solely you destruction and their last act was to brazenly attack civilians killing a thousand and taking a 100 hostages.
And again you are buying into the myth of resistance sovereignty fighters. If this is them explain the strategy of Oct 7th and how that was meant to help the Gazans.
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On July 02 2025 05:31 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2025 05:13 Gahlo wrote:On July 02 2025 01:18 Billyboy wrote:On July 01 2025 18:46 Liquid`Drone wrote:On July 01 2025 16:13 baal wrote:On June 30 2025 13:52 Broetchenholer wrote:On June 30 2025 07:22 baal wrote:
Why aren't you asking for Hamas to surrender and release the hostages to stop the genocide? So having terrorist among them is grounds for genocide in your world? Guess we should murder the whole planet then? No, but if some jews kindapped random germans in 1939 and Hitler said he wanted them released and for the captors to surrender to stop the camps then I'd be like: damn, comply asap ffs. You'd trust Hitler? Anyway: Nobody here is supporting Hamas. Nobody here thought october 7th was a good thing. But the hostages being released or not is irrelevant at this point (regarding the broader conflict), the notion that Nethanyahu is in any way motivated by their well-being is silly at best. We're focusing more on criticizing Israel than Hamas not because we think Hamas is better, but because Israel is a 'western' country propped up by western countries (like, you might as well ask 'why aren't you focusing on North Korea' every time there's some freedom issue in a western country), and even if Hamas' intentions are worse than those of Israel, Israel is currently (and has been for a long time) the party causing more suffering. Israeli soldiers themselves are saying it - they're not encountering any opposition anymore, there's nobody shooting back at them in Gaza, but the killing of palestinians continues and the landgrab is accelerating. And continuing this vein - I have absolutely zero faith in Israel's leadership in terms of them being like 'oh, okay, guess we'll withdraw and try to move towards a solution that's also palatable to Palestinians' if the hostages were freed. The reality is Hamas has tons of agency, it is that they don't care about any of the shit that people seem to think they are. They could trade the hostages and have their leadership flee safely to Qatar and get a end to the Israel offensive and prisoner releases in the thousands. And they could have done this for at least the past year. If you still happen to be one of those people that thinks Hamas cares at all about the Gazans, then answer how you think Oct 7th was designed to further that goal? Hamas' leadership hasn't been in Gaza for a good while and they have offered the hostages to end the conflict. Israel isn't interested in that because they want Hamas to surrender, which of course they won't do because they don't trust Israel to not continue doing what they're doing anyway - except then they wouldn't have any resistance. Hamas made the mistake of thinking Israel would care about the hostages. Yes, they need to offer to leave as well. Which is actually a pretty reasonable demand when their foreign policy is solely you destruction and their last act was to brazenly attack civilians killing a thousand and taking a 100 hostages.
And again you are buying into the myth of resistance sovereignty fighters. If this is them explain the strategy of Oct 7th and how that was meant to help the Gazans.
Which government are we talking about here? You'll need to be more specific.
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