EPTOn March 25 2020 11:10 ggrrg wrote:
I am sorry to inform you, Vivax, but attesting the Doctor “reasonable assessments” says more about you than it does about his credibility.
First of all, Acrofales’ statement of “not a very reliable source” is clearly aimed at the youtube channel, which is a perfectly objective description.
As far as the article from the Lancet is considered, maybe actually reading it could help better understand the issues at hand instead of just blindly believing the conclusion that guy draws from a single picture.
article: + Show Spoiler +
Upon admission a chest x-ray of the patient shows “multiple patchy shadows in both lungs”. The post-mortem biopsy shows that he was suffering from acute respiratory distress syndrome, which by itself has a death rate of 35-50% + Show Spoiler +. The treatment for ARDS when not acquired with a SARS-CoV-2 infection does not include any of the drugs the patient in question received – the 35-50% death rate applies when these drugs are not given. This alone already suggests that sitting it out and hoping for the best is a rather mediocre option when you have a patient with an already heavily life-threatening illness alongside other health issues.
Furthermore, there has been another case-study from China (also posted in the lancet) examining the effectiveness of the treatment the patient received + Show Spoiler +. I cannot evaluate the findings of the study and it is outside of the scope of the issue at hand anyway. However, the study shows that 38% of the patients who had ARDS and received the treatment died, which is well within the expected 35-50% mortality and does not suggest an increased death rate.
By the way, the standard procedure for treating ARDS in severe cases includes the use of extracorporeal membrane oxygenation, which the patient kept refusing due to his claustrophobia – thus his chance of survival is already expected to be lower than the average chance in ARDS patients.
Then the good doctor from the clip rants on about the use of corticosteroids and their danger. The very article he bases his claims on includes a statement warning about the use of corticosteroids and only suggests using them in specific cases. Not only that but the Chinese case study I linked above only used corticosteroids in 22% of the patients. On top of that, the lancet itself includes multiple articles discussing the use of corticosteroids in Covid-19 patients and their danger. Multiple ones explicitly do not recommend using corticosteroids (for example this one: + Show Spoiler +). So I wonder how this phony doctor reached the conclusion that corticosteroids are widely used in Italian patients when their use is generally discouraged. Did he simply skip reading any other articles on the novel coronavirus in the lancet after finding a table to his liking or did he intentionally misrepresent the information available to convince viewers without any knowledge on the subject to believe his questionable conclusions?
So we established that for some reason that quack believes that Italian doctors are widely treating patients with corticosteroids based on a single example (from China) found in the lancet, while multiple other articles in the lancet explicitly recommend against the use of corticosteroids. He also claims that Italian doctors indiscriminately use antibiotics to treat patients. The origin of this claim is another mystery given that there seem to be no articles in the lancet promoting such use, but there is at least one suggesting antibiotics only in cases of bacterial infections + Show Spoiler +. Then he also assumes (without any proof) that patients are just blindly pumped with antivirals. Well, he admitted that he wasn’t there to know for sure. Neither was I. But an article like this one here + Show Spoiler + discussing Italian Medicines Agency’s intention to allow specific drugs for off-label use in Covid-19 patients and to start clinical trials with them strongly suggests that off-label medication is not allowed in Italy without former approval by their medicines agency. I could not find any such approvals from Italy about the drugs the questionable doctor mentioned from the case in China. Maybe you have better luck than me finding them? Or you can just choose to believe some clown’s wild guesses.
And going back to your perception of “reasonable assessments” from the quack doctor, let’s see what else he said:
- He did not miss to throw in a mention how the AIDS medications used on the one Chinese patient are “extremely toxic stuff”. I’d say it is common knowledge that most drugs are “extremely toxic stuff” given in excess amount and are only applied in cases where the risk-benefit expectation is positive. If that’s the case for drugs in Covid-19 patients is beyond me (and probably beyond him), but it is worth mentioning that this health care professional is the kind of person who does not believe that HIV causes AIDS. Apparently, a current sample size of around 38 million individuals in not enough for him to see any causation here… (source: + Show Spoiler +)
- He claims that doctors are always “on the safe side” when they try “everything” and if they do not attempt “everything” and the patient dies, “they have a problem”. Yeah, it almost sounds reasonable. Next time he gets a patient with a stroke in his office, he should pump him full of antibiotics and antivirals, and then try to explain to the medical commission how he “tried everything”. Using random drugs for a treatment of a health problem they are not licensed for is inadmissible. This applies to Germany as well as Italy and probably everywhere around the world. Considering that he does not provide any sources for off-label use of the drugs in question being allowed in Italy, his statement is not just a wild guess but actually factually wrong.
- He states that politicians take extreme measures to be on the safe side and profit from preventing “the epidemic that was never there”. Really?? “The epidemic that was never there”??? Gee, if he says so then I guess the WHO must be mistaken about the pandemic that was never there. I guess Xi Jinping, Merkel, Trump and countless other heads of state just agreed upon helping each other solidify each other’s power grips with some fictional pandemic. Sounds totally believable, I guess.
I could go on and on about this guy’s senseless ramblings but it is getting too late and if my point has not come across by now, I doubt that any further reasoning would yield a different result.
By the way, they unironically announced that next week the clown will explain the connection between the novel coronavirus and HIV. I just can’t wait to tune in and find out what groundbreaking discoveries this unique genius has made…
Ultimately, I wonder how you can accommodate the cognitive dissonance of saying that “you shouldn't believe every horror story getting posted out there” while readily believing a random 5 minute story from some guy talking on a channel known for having the credibility of a totalitarian regime’s state media.
I am sorry to inform you, Vivax, but attesting the Doctor “reasonable assessments” says more about you than it does about his credibility.
First of all, Acrofales’ statement of “not a very reliable source” is clearly aimed at the youtube channel, which is a perfectly objective description.
As far as the article from the Lancet is considered, maybe actually reading it could help better understand the issues at hand instead of just blindly believing the conclusion that guy draws from a single picture.
article: + Show Spoiler +
Upon admission a chest x-ray of the patient shows “multiple patchy shadows in both lungs”. The post-mortem biopsy shows that he was suffering from acute respiratory distress syndrome, which by itself has a death rate of 35-50% + Show Spoiler +
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acute_respiratory_distress_syndrome
Furthermore, there has been another case-study from China (also posted in the lancet) examining the effectiveness of the treatment the patient received + Show Spoiler +. I cannot evaluate the findings of the study and it is outside of the scope of the issue at hand anyway. However, the study shows that 38% of the patients who had ARDS and received the treatment died, which is well within the expected 35-50% mortality and does not suggest an increased death rate.
By the way, the standard procedure for treating ARDS in severe cases includes the use of extracorporeal membrane oxygenation, which the patient kept refusing due to his claustrophobia – thus his chance of survival is already expected to be lower than the average chance in ARDS patients.
Then the good doctor from the clip rants on about the use of corticosteroids and their danger. The very article he bases his claims on includes a statement warning about the use of corticosteroids and only suggests using them in specific cases. Not only that but the Chinese case study I linked above only used corticosteroids in 22% of the patients. On top of that, the lancet itself includes multiple articles discussing the use of corticosteroids in Covid-19 patients and their danger. Multiple ones explicitly do not recommend using corticosteroids (for example this one: + Show Spoiler +). So I wonder how this phony doctor reached the conclusion that corticosteroids are widely used in Italian patients when their use is generally discouraged. Did he simply skip reading any other articles on the novel coronavirus in the lancet after finding a table to his liking or did he intentionally misrepresent the information available to convince viewers without any knowledge on the subject to believe his questionable conclusions?
So we established that for some reason that quack believes that Italian doctors are widely treating patients with corticosteroids based on a single example (from China) found in the lancet, while multiple other articles in the lancet explicitly recommend against the use of corticosteroids. He also claims that Italian doctors indiscriminately use antibiotics to treat patients. The origin of this claim is another mystery given that there seem to be no articles in the lancet promoting such use, but there is at least one suggesting antibiotics only in cases of bacterial infections + Show Spoiler +. Then he also assumes (without any proof) that patients are just blindly pumped with antivirals. Well, he admitted that he wasn’t there to know for sure. Neither was I. But an article like this one here + Show Spoiler +
https://www.osborneclarke.com/insights/summary-italian-medicines-agencys-aifa-press-releases-measures-covid-19-emergency-17-march-2020/
And going back to your perception of “reasonable assessments” from the quack doctor, let’s see what else he said:
- He did not miss to throw in a mention how the AIDS medications used on the one Chinese patient are “extremely toxic stuff”. I’d say it is common knowledge that most drugs are “extremely toxic stuff” given in excess amount and are only applied in cases where the risk-benefit expectation is positive. If that’s the case for drugs in Covid-19 patients is beyond me (and probably beyond him), but it is worth mentioning that this health care professional is the kind of person who does not believe that HIV causes AIDS. Apparently, a current sample size of around 38 million individuals in not enough for him to see any causation here… (source: + Show Spoiler +
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fTBt4sOJOc
- He claims that doctors are always “on the safe side” when they try “everything” and if they do not attempt “everything” and the patient dies, “they have a problem”. Yeah, it almost sounds reasonable. Next time he gets a patient with a stroke in his office, he should pump him full of antibiotics and antivirals, and then try to explain to the medical commission how he “tried everything”. Using random drugs for a treatment of a health problem they are not licensed for is inadmissible. This applies to Germany as well as Italy and probably everywhere around the world. Considering that he does not provide any sources for off-label use of the drugs in question being allowed in Italy, his statement is not just a wild guess but actually factually wrong.
- He states that politicians take extreme measures to be on the safe side and profit from preventing “the epidemic that was never there”. Really?? “The epidemic that was never there”??? Gee, if he says so then I guess the WHO must be mistaken about the pandemic that was never there. I guess Xi Jinping, Merkel, Trump and countless other heads of state just agreed upon helping each other solidify each other’s power grips with some fictional pandemic. Sounds totally believable, I guess.
I could go on and on about this guy’s senseless ramblings but it is getting too late and if my point has not come across by now, I doubt that any further reasoning would yield a different result.
By the way, they unironically announced that next week the clown will explain the connection between the novel coronavirus and HIV. I just can’t wait to tune in and find out what groundbreaking discoveries this unique genius has made…
Ultimately, I wonder how you can accommodate the cognitive dissonance of saying that “you shouldn't believe every horror story getting posted out there” while readily believing a random 5 minute story from some guy talking on a channel known for having the credibility of a totalitarian regime’s state media.
It is always nice when someone is able to understand what has been said, analyze it and draw meaningful conclusions. Great! it would be great if everyone could do this before spreading conspiracy theories.
