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Added a disclaimer on page 662. Many need to post better. |
On March 25 2020 06:28 GreenHorizons wrote:
In the US quitting often disqualifies one from unemployment benefits, whereas getting fired does not. Keep that in mind. Especially since most of the speculation on the emergency assistance package is that the money is going to be fed through unemployment (and possibly keeping people not at work on payroll)
Yes, this is what I was going to say too. You gain NOTHING by quitting. Just set the terms and see what they do. Tell them you have a fever. See what happens. If your wife is immosuppressed, based on what other people are saying, you should be looking out for her, but that doesn't mean you need to give up this money from an employer who probably has money to lose. The ethical thing to do is to stop working, tell them you are sick, and continue to collect money as long as you can.
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On March 25 2020 06:31 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2020 06:28 GreenHorizons wrote:
In the US quitting often disqualifies one from unemployment benefits, whereas getting fired does not. Keep that in mind. Especially since most of the speculation on the emergency assistance package is that the money is going to be fed through unemployment (and possibly keeping people not at work on payroll) Yes, this is what I was going to say too. You gain NOTHING by quitting. Just set the terms and see what they do. Tell them you have a fever. See what happens. If your wife is immosuppressed, based on what other people are saying, you should be looking out for her, but that doesn't mean you need to give up this money from an employer who probably has money to lose. The ethical thing to do is to stop working, tell them you are sick, and continue to collect money as long as you can.
Yeah, if the choice was keep working with a 100% chance of infection or quit, I probably wouldn’t quit for the reasons you guys are mentioning. My wife could even go stay with her mom or something, that would suck but probably less than quitting my job would suck.
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Lalalaland34491 Posts
There are indeed different levels of immunosuppression. It can be anything from inhaled steroids for asthma to pregnancy to oral steroids to DMARDs for arthritis/IBD to immunosuppression for organ transplants. Where is the divide between where it is acceptable to continue with normal life and where one should stay home for the next three months? No one truly knows, it is a personal choice to make.
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Staying home from the workplace when going puts loved ones or oneself at risk under these circumstances isn't quitting. If someone is fired for that they have a good chance at unemployment. If they keep going to work they're putting vulnerable people around them at risk. That's how I see it.
*edited to reflect it is my observation/description of the situation rather than advice.
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There's a lot there. If the recommendation is that she's not actually high risk I would be very hesitant to hit the red button, myself. Being unemployed in the cluster that's coming is not going to be fun.
I really would encourage you to at least talk to your boss. Even in the extreme case you can say "look, I really like working here and I don't want to leave, but I feel like these are my options". Even if going indefinite unpaid makes you more likely to be fired, that's better than the 100% chance of being unemployed if you quit.
I'd be thinking about other options as much as you can. Separating yourself in the house as much as possible may be worth pursuing. We have an immediate family member in an extreme risk category and we were very close to setting them up in the basement or with relatives. Thankfully I was able to switch to mostly WFH so this became less of an issue.
Another option is to try and vary your work hours. The times I've had to go into the lab because something wasn't fully automated, I've done it at midnight and not seen a single other person. It's riskier than staying at home, but our aircon is well filtered and high volume, and the lab is clean as a matter of course. A biolab is probably one of the safest workplaces around in this regard.
I've been required to be a germophobe for a very long time. Discipline in the small things is the key. If you find yourself thinking "eh it'll probably be fine" because it's too much effort to wash your hands for the 20th time or it feels rude to tell the colleague with a sniffle to bugger off, that is the point you can get sick.
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We should refrain from giving someone advice on high stakes decisions like that without even knowing his location/job prospects/living situation. For example in my city unemployment is less than rent alone, it's not exactly a solid plan with an inevitable recession..
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On March 25 2020 07:06 Belisarius wrote:
I really would encourage you to at least talk to your boss. Even in the extreme case you can say "look, I really like working here and I don't want to leave, but I feel like these are my options". Even if going indefinite unpaid makes you more likely to be fired, that's better than the 100% chance of being unemployed if you quit.
This is significantly riskier than saying "I am sick with a fever and won't be coming in until I am better".
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On March 25 2020 04:54 ChristianS wrote:
One of the themes I’ve noticed is people finding their breaking point on things they thought they would never do. Close your restaurant indefinitely? Cancel the first several months of the F1 season? Postpone the olympics? A lot of people thought they would “never” do a lot of stuff until it came down to it.
Unfortunately, by the time they find out what their breaking point is, they often wish they had realized the inevitable and broken a lot sooner. F1 didn’t cancel the Australian GP until a bunch of people flew in and several tested positive. I’m pretty sure my work won’t shut the site down until multiple employees test positive and it’s clear they got it at work.
With that in mind, maybe you guys have some input on this: what should my breaking point be for quitting my job/requesting indefinite unpaid leave if my job keeps asking us to come in and it’s clear we’re likely to get sick at work? Potentially relevant info: my wife is somewhat immunosuppressed from getting plasmapheresis once every 3 weeks; I could probably afford my mortgage for 2-3 months without income by racking up credit card debt, but losing health insurance would be expensive in ways I don’t even know how to estimate. I think I’d basically have to sign up for COBRA no matter the cost.
I do not envy you in this situation. I hope that whatever choice you make, it works out. But, after this is all and done, move to a country that will not press you to make these types of choices
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On March 25 2020 07:20 dankobanana wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2020 04:54 ChristianS wrote:
One of the themes I’ve noticed is people finding their breaking point on things they thought they would never do. Close your restaurant indefinitely? Cancel the first several months of the F1 season? Postpone the olympics? A lot of people thought they would “never” do a lot of stuff until it came down to it.
Unfortunately, by the time they find out what their breaking point is, they often wish they had realized the inevitable and broken a lot sooner. F1 didn’t cancel the Australian GP until a bunch of people flew in and several tested positive. I’m pretty sure my work won’t shut the site down until multiple employees test positive and it’s clear they got it at work.
With that in mind, maybe you guys have some input on this: what should my breaking point be for quitting my job/requesting indefinite unpaid leave if my job keeps asking us to come in and it’s clear we’re likely to get sick at work? Potentially relevant info: my wife is somewhat immunosuppressed from getting plasmapheresis once every 3 weeks; I could probably afford my mortgage for 2-3 months without income by racking up credit card debt, but losing health insurance would be expensive in ways I don’t even know how to estimate. I think I’d basically have to sign up for COBRA no matter the cost. I do not envy you in this situation. I hope that whatever choice you make, it works out. But, after this is all and done, move to a country that will not press you to make these types of choices
Yup, being a Canadian citizen and not living in Canada feels really fucking stupid lately. Plenty of jobs for me in Montreal, Vancouver and various parts of Ontario. But my house is probably about to lose 100K of value, so I'll be stuck here for 30 years anyway.
Shoulda just went back to Squamish....loved that place.
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On March 25 2020 07:38 Mohdoo wrote:
Yup, being a Canadian citizen and not living in Canada feels really fucking stupid lately. Plenty of jobs for me in Montreal, Vancouver and various parts of Ontario. But my house is probably about to lose 100K of value, so I'll be stuck here for 30 years anyway.
Shoulda just went back to Squamish....loved that place.
dude, there is no price for safety and peace of mind.
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On March 25 2020 07:58 dankobanana wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2020 07:38 Mohdoo wrote:
Yup, being a Canadian citizen and not living in Canada feels really fucking stupid lately. Plenty of jobs for me in Montreal, Vancouver and various parts of Ontario. But my house is probably about to lose 100K of value, so I'll be stuck here for 30 years anyway.
Shoulda just went back to Squamish....loved that place. dude, there is no price for safety and peace of mind.
Arguably, being homeless and starving isn't that helpful for safety and peace of mind. :p
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On March 25 2020 07:38 Mohdoo wrote:
But my house is probably about to lose 100K of value, so I'll be stuck here for 30 years anyway.
Don't fall into the sunk cost fallacy. You have options that many of us do not. Utilize it!
Yes it does suck to just piss away 100k, but all it takes is one major medical incident to make the 100k seems like a fart in the wind.
https://khn.org/news/april-medical-bill-of-month-143k-snakebite-antivenin/
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On March 25 2020 04:01 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2020 01:23 DarkGamer wrote:On March 24 2020 22:21 Harris1st wrote:On March 24 2020 21:03 DarkGamer wrote:On March 24 2020 18:35 ggrrg wrote:On March 24 2020 15:41 Harris1st wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Haven't been following this thread closely these last few days, so I'm not sure if this has been posted yet. Anyway, there is an interview with a German doctor (who also wrote a book H5N1, SARS and others) saying many (almost half!) of the tests are false positives. So far so good. Then he goes on about how treating Covid is wrong in almost all cases. People just need to rest 2 weeks and will most likely surive. His ground for this statement is a wrong treatment of a 50 yr old male who got stuffed with pretty much every pill there is until his immun system gave up and he died. He also thinks this may be the case in Italy and why their mortality rate is so much higher than everywhere else. I'm looking for more sources Right now I can only give you this German YT EDIT: This is not supposed so be some conspiracy , tin foil hat thingy. Just wanted to share this It is quite sad to see how easily all kinds of buffoons can spread their mental diarrhea over the internet. In 3 days, 650k people just became a tiny bit dumber by watching this video… I could write an entire essay evaluating manipulation technics just based on that 24 minute clip. My conclusion would probably be that the doc can learn quite a bit from his hosts. His statements are too jumpy and do not manage to establish even a superficially logical train of thought. One needs to already be predisposed to buying the bullshit he is selling to believe him. The show itself is on a whole different level. It is a non-stop chain of subtle pricks and prods at the viewers’ world views. It does not go overboard with loaded statements, but gradually nudges the viewer in certain directions to subliminally instill particular ideas. I still have to admit that I lost it at a certain point, when the show host asked “Is the media critical enough in times of crisis?”. Very rich coming from RT’s propaganda department. Im glad someone is seeing clearly here. Beside that, its just characteristically how i directly prove with facts that a statement is wrong just to see that no one cares and the same person tells us that its always good to hear different points of view. NO ITS NOT. Facts dont lie. We should always seperate facts with fiction. Excuse me? That's a really high horse you are sitting on mate. There can be multiple reasons for false positives, just human error alone. Anyway, I posted the video more because of case he is discussing and I really don't wanna defend his opinion of what this doctor thinks about the testing. A few pages back people were wondering what the difference between Italy and other countries is and the "treatment" might be one of them. I don't know and I don't pretend to know Its not my horse. I quoted the inventor and executor of the validity check. I guess he knows best, right? I never said that human errors cant occur. Your reasoning doesnt fit the discussion Its well known what are the factors for different mortality rates. U just have to listen to the experts (not the Conspiracy theorists). 1. Test groups: For example in italian the most tested people were the ones in the hospitals. Very often old people and often with pre-existing illness. Therefore the fall mortality is pretty high. In germany there are much more younger people tested. They often had no pre-existing illness. Therefore the fall mortality is far lower. Btw its very important that these numbers right now are NOT Infection mortality but fall mortality. If you dont unterstand the difference you cant understand the numbers AT ALL. 2. Healthcare system: Very complex theme but the point is that if the health system is overwhelmed, the mortality rate increases rapidly as triage occurs. thats the case in italy. btw experts assume that the mortality rate is 1 percent. that's 5-10x more than a flu and without the collapse of the health system! i hope u get the point. and experts also warn against spreading every theory. that only makes things worse and unsettles people. hence my appeal to stay with facts. ... He quotes the Lancet, which THE most renowned medical journal. Seems to me these are experts, Don't you think? It's not a theory, it's a case study... seriously dude. ...
On March 24 2020 22:43 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2020 17:57 Harris1st wrote:On March 24 2020 17:02 Acrofales wrote:On March 24 2020 15:41 Harris1st wrote:Haven't been following this thread closely these last few days, so I'm not sure if this has been posted yet. Anyway, there is an interview with a German doctor (who also wrote a book H5N1, SARS and others) saying many (almost half!) of the tests are false positives. So far so good. Then he goes on about how treating Covid is wrong in almost all cases. People just need to rest 2 weeks and will most likely surive. His ground for this statement is a wrong treatment of a 50 yr old male who got stuffed with pretty much every pill there is until his immun system gave up and he died. He also thinks this may be the case in Italy and why their mortality rate is so much higher than everywhere else. I'm looking for more sources Right now I can only give you this German YT https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzTr_RjtgUkEDIT: This is not supposed so be some conspiracy , tin foil hat thingy. Just wanted to share this Not a very reliable source, but if the best treatment was"sit at home and rest" the mortality rate wouldn't be between 1-4%. For a lot of patients I have no doubt that sicking it out at home *is* the best treatment. That's the 80%. The problem is the 20% who develop pneumonia and other severe symptoms. I also have no doubt that with the stress on medical institutions right now, mistakes are being made and some people *are* receiving the wrong treatment. That doesn't mean the right treatment for pneumonia is to sit at home and pray. I'm not saying I agree with everything he says. Just wanted to share this so people can make up their own minds. And it's always useful to have more than one perspectives  The RKI says mortality cases have an average age of 82. That's pretty good news I think. Seems like Germany will not become Italy 2.0 Sees doctor quoting The Lancet on the case of a 50y-old who got stuffed with experimental treatments with no regard to interactions and died and says "not a very reliable source". Wtf man. I watched it and he has been very reasonable with his assessments, also mentioning that you shouldn't believe every horror story getting posted out there. Stick to medical journals. Still around 6% Case fatality ratio untreated vs. 0.7-0.9% treated according to sciencedirect sources, which is very close to the flu. Around 11% CFR in Italy tho wow, might say more about the quality of healthcare there when comparing it to Germany. https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html?CDC_AA_refVal=https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/burden.htm. And sometimes a bad treatment is worse than the disease. If I'm not mistaken the most accurate viral tests are based on antibody detection, not PCR (which gets distorted by the tiniest contaminations).
I am sorry to inform you, Vivax, but attesting the Doctor “reasonable assessments” says more about you than it does about his credibility.
First of all, Acrofales’ statement of “not a very reliable source” is clearly aimed at the youtube channel, which is a perfectly objective description.
As far as the article from the Lancet is considered, maybe actually reading it could help better understand the issues at hand instead of just blindly believing the conclusion that guy draws from a single picture.
article: + Show Spoiler +
Upon admission a chest x-ray of the patient shows “multiple patchy shadows in both lungs”. The post-mortem biopsy shows that he was suffering from acute respiratory distress syndrome, which by itself has a death rate of 35-50% + Show Spoiler +https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acute_respiratory_distress_syndrome
Furthermore, there has been another case-study from China (also posted in the lancet) examining the effectiveness of the treatment the patient received + Show Spoiler +. I cannot evaluate the findings of the study and it is outside of the scope of the issue at hand anyway. However, the study shows that 38% of the patients who had ARDS and received the treatment died, which is well within the expected 35-50% mortality and does not suggest an increased death rate.
By the way, the standard procedure for treating ARDS in severe cases includes the use of extracorporeal membrane oxygenation, which the patient kept refusing due to his claustrophobia – thus his chance of survival is already expected to be lower than the average chance in ARDS patients.
Then the good doctor from the clip rants on about the use of corticosteroids and their danger. The very article he bases his claims on includes a statement warning about the use of corticosteroids and only suggests using them in specific cases. Not only that but the Chinese case study I linked above only used corticosteroids in 22% of the patients. On top of that, the lancet itself includes multiple articles discussing the use of corticosteroids in Covid-19 patients and their danger. Multiple ones explicitly do not recommend using corticosteroids (for example this one: + Show Spoiler +). So I wonder how this phony doctor reached the conclusion that corticosteroids are widely used in Italian patients when their use is generally discouraged. Did he simply skip reading any other articles on the novel coronavirus in the lancet after finding a table to his liking or did he intentionally misrepresent the information available to convince viewers without any knowledge on the subject to believe his questionable conclusions?
So we established that for some reason that quack believes that Italian doctors are widely treating patients with corticosteroids based on a single example (from China) found in the lancet, while multiple other articles in the lancet explicitly recommend against the use of corticosteroids. He also claims that Italian doctors indiscriminately use antibiotics to treat patients. The origin of this claim is another mystery given that there seem to be no articles in the lancet promoting such use, but there is at least one suggesting antibiotics only in cases of bacterial infections + Show Spoiler +. Then he also assumes (without any proof) that patients are just blindly pumped with antivirals. Well, he admitted that he wasn’t there to know for sure. Neither was I. But an article like this one here + Show Spoiler +https://www.osborneclarke.com/insights/summary-italian-medicines-agencys-aifa-press-releases-measures-covid-19-emergency-17-march-2020/
And going back to your perception of “reasonable assessments” from the quack doctor, let’s see what else he said:
- He did not miss to throw in a mention how the AIDS medications used on the one Chinese patient are “extremely toxic stuff”. I’d say it is common knowledge that most drugs are “extremely toxic stuff” given in excess amount and are only applied in cases where the risk-benefit expectation is positive. If that’s the case for drugs in Covid-19 patients is beyond me (and probably beyond him), but it is worth mentioning that this health care professional is the kind of person who does not believe that HIV causes AIDS. Apparently, a current sample size of around 38 million individuals in not enough for him to see any causation here… (source: + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fTBt4sOJOc
- He claims that doctors are always “on the safe side” when they try “everything” and if they do not attempt “everything” and the patient dies, “they have a problem”. Yeah, it almost sounds reasonable. Next time he gets a patient with a stroke in his office, he should pump him full of antibiotics and antivirals, and then try to explain to the medical commission how he “tried everything”. Using random drugs for a treatment of a health problem they are not licensed for is inadmissible. This applies to Germany as well as Italy and probably everywhere around the world. Considering that he does not provide any sources for off-label use of the drugs in question being allowed in Italy, his statement is not just a wild guess but actually factually wrong.
- He states that politicians take extreme measures to be on the safe side and profit from preventing “the epidemic that was never there”. Really?? “The epidemic that was never there”??? Gee, if he says so then I guess the WHO must be mistaken about the pandemic that was never there. I guess Xi Jinping, Merkel, Trump and countless other heads of state just agreed upon helping each other solidify each other’s power grips with some fictional pandemic. Sounds totally believable, I guess.
I could go on and on about this guy’s senseless ramblings but it is getting too late and if my point has not come across by now, I doubt that any further reasoning would yield a different result.
By the way, they unironically announced that next week the clown will explain the connection between the novel coronavirus and HIV. I just can’t wait to tune in and find out what groundbreaking discoveries this unique genius has made…
Ultimately, I wonder how you can accommodate the cognitive dissonance of saying that “you shouldn't believe every horror story getting posted out there” while readily believing a random 5 minute story from some guy talking on a channel known for having the credibility of a totalitarian regime’s state media.
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TLADT24920 Posts
That was a really well written post. Didn't watch the video to see what he stated personally.
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+ Show Spoiler +On March 25 2020 11:10 ggrrg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2020 04:01 Harris1st wrote:On March 25 2020 01:23 DarkGamer wrote:On March 24 2020 22:21 Harris1st wrote:On March 24 2020 21:03 DarkGamer wrote:On March 24 2020 18:35 ggrrg wrote:On March 24 2020 15:41 Harris1st wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Haven't been following this thread closely these last few days, so I'm not sure if this has been posted yet. Anyway, there is an interview with a German doctor (who also wrote a book H5N1, SARS and others) saying many (almost half!) of the tests are false positives. So far so good. Then he goes on about how treating Covid is wrong in almost all cases. People just need to rest 2 weeks and will most likely surive. His ground for this statement is a wrong treatment of a 50 yr old male who got stuffed with pretty much every pill there is until his immun system gave up and he died. He also thinks this may be the case in Italy and why their mortality rate is so much higher than everywhere else. I'm looking for more sources Right now I can only give you this German YT https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzTr_RjtgUkEDIT: This is not supposed so be some conspiracy , tin foil hat thingy. Just wanted to share this It is quite sad to see how easily all kinds of buffoons can spread their mental diarrhea over the internet. In 3 days, 650k people just became a tiny bit dumber by watching this video… I could write an entire essay evaluating manipulation technics just based on that 24 minute clip. My conclusion would probably be that the doc can learn quite a bit from his hosts. His statements are too jumpy and do not manage to establish even a superficially logical train of thought. One needs to already be predisposed to buying the bullshit he is selling to believe him. The show itself is on a whole different level. It is a non-stop chain of subtle pricks and prods at the viewers’ world views. It does not go overboard with loaded statements, but gradually nudges the viewer in certain directions to subliminally instill particular ideas. I still have to admit that I lost it at a certain point, when the show host asked “Is the media critical enough in times of crisis?”. Very rich coming from RT’s propaganda department. Im glad someone is seeing clearly here. Beside that, its just characteristically how i directly prove with facts that a statement is wrong just to see that no one cares and the same person tells us that its always good to hear different points of view. NO ITS NOT. Facts dont lie. We should always seperate facts with fiction. Excuse me? That's a really high horse you are sitting on mate. There can be multiple reasons for false positives, just human error alone. Anyway, I posted the video more because of case he is discussing and I really don't wanna defend his opinion of what this doctor thinks about the testing. A few pages back people were wondering what the difference between Italy and other countries is and the "treatment" might be one of them. I don't know and I don't pretend to know Its not my horse. I quoted the inventor and executor of the validity check. I guess he knows best, right? I never said that human errors cant occur. Your reasoning doesnt fit the discussion Its well known what are the factors for different mortality rates. U just have to listen to the experts (not the Conspiracy theorists). 1. Test groups: For example in italian the most tested people were the ones in the hospitals. Very often old people and often with pre-existing illness. Therefore the fall mortality is pretty high. In germany there are much more younger people tested. They often had no pre-existing illness. Therefore the fall mortality is far lower. Btw its very important that these numbers right now are NOT Infection mortality but fall mortality. If you dont unterstand the difference you cant understand the numbers AT ALL. 2. Healthcare system: Very complex theme but the point is that if the health system is overwhelmed, the mortality rate increases rapidly as triage occurs. thats the case in italy. btw experts assume that the mortality rate is 1 percent. that's 5-10x more than a flu and without the collapse of the health system! i hope u get the point. and experts also warn against spreading every theory. that only makes things worse and unsettles people. hence my appeal to stay with facts. ... He quotes the Lancet, which THE most renowned medical journal. Seems to me these are experts, Don't you think? It's not a theory, it's a case study... seriously dude. ... Show nested quote +On March 24 2020 22:43 Vivax wrote:On March 24 2020 17:57 Harris1st wrote:On March 24 2020 17:02 Acrofales wrote:On March 24 2020 15:41 Harris1st wrote:Haven't been following this thread closely these last few days, so I'm not sure if this has been posted yet. Anyway, there is an interview with a German doctor (who also wrote a book H5N1, SARS and others) saying many (almost half!) of the tests are false positives. So far so good. Then he goes on about how treating Covid is wrong in almost all cases. People just need to rest 2 weeks and will most likely surive. His ground for this statement is a wrong treatment of a 50 yr old male who got stuffed with pretty much every pill there is until his immun system gave up and he died. He also thinks this may be the case in Italy and why their mortality rate is so much higher than everywhere else. I'm looking for more sources Right now I can only give you this German YT https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzTr_RjtgUkEDIT: This is not supposed so be some conspiracy , tin foil hat thingy. Just wanted to share this Not a very reliable source, but if the best treatment was"sit at home and rest" the mortality rate wouldn't be between 1-4%. For a lot of patients I have no doubt that sicking it out at home *is* the best treatment. That's the 80%. The problem is the 20% who develop pneumonia and other severe symptoms. I also have no doubt that with the stress on medical institutions right now, mistakes are being made and some people *are* receiving the wrong treatment. That doesn't mean the right treatment for pneumonia is to sit at home and pray. I'm not saying I agree with everything he says. Just wanted to share this so people can make up their own minds. And it's always useful to have more than one perspectives The RKI says mortality cases have an average age of 82. That's pretty good news I think. Seems like Germany will not become Italy 2.0 Sees doctor quoting The Lancet on the case of a 50y-old who got stuffed with experimental treatments with no regard to interactions and died and says "not a very reliable source". Wtf man. I watched it and he has been very reasonable with his assessments, also mentioning that you shouldn't believe every horror story getting posted out there. Stick to medical journals. Still around 6% Case fatality ratio untreated vs. 0.7-0.9% treated according to sciencedirect sources, which is very close to the flu. Around 11% CFR in Italy tho wow, might say more about the quality of healthcare there when comparing it to Germany. https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html?CDC_AA_refVal=https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/burden.htm. And sometimes a bad treatment is worse than the disease. If I'm not mistaken the most accurate viral tests are based on antibody detection, not PCR (which gets distorted by the tiniest contaminations). I am sorry to inform you, Vivax, but attesting the Doctor “reasonable assessments” says more about you than it does about his credibility. First of all, Acrofales’ statement of “not a very reliable source” is clearly aimed at the youtube channel, which is a perfectly objective description. As far as the article from the Lancet is considered, maybe actually reading it could help better understand the issues at hand instead of just blindly believing the conclusion that guy draws from a single picture. article: + Show Spoiler +Upon admission a chest x-ray of the patient shows “multiple patchy shadows in both lungs”. The post-mortem biopsy shows that he was suffering from acute respiratory distress syndrome, which by itself has a death rate of 35-50% + Show Spoiler +https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acute_respiratory_distress_syndrome . The treatment for ARDS when not acquired with a SARS-CoV-2 infection does not include any of the drugs the patient in question received – the 35-50% death rate applies when these drugs are not given. This alone already suggests that sitting it out and hoping for the best is a rather mediocre option when you have a patient with an already heavily life-threatening illness alongside other health issues. Furthermore, there has been another case-study from China (also posted in the lancet) examining the effectiveness of the treatment the patient received + Show Spoiler +. I cannot evaluate the findings of the study and it is outside of the scope of the issue at hand anyway. However, the study shows that 38% of the patients who had ARDS and received the treatment died, which is well within the expected 35-50% mortality and does not suggest an increased death rate. By the way, the standard procedure for treating ARDS in severe cases includes the use of extracorporeal membrane oxygenation, which the patient kept refusing due to his claustrophobia – thus his chance of survival is already expected to be lower than the average chance in ARDS patients. Then the good doctor from the clip rants on about the use of corticosteroids and their danger. The very article he bases his claims on includes a statement warning about the use of corticosteroids and only suggests using them in specific cases. Not only that but the Chinese case study I linked above only used corticosteroids in 22% of the patients. On top of that, the lancet itself includes multiple articles discussing the use of corticosteroids in Covid-19 patients and their danger. Multiple ones explicitly do not recommend using corticosteroids (for example this one: + Show Spoiler +). So I wonder how this phony doctor reached the conclusion that corticosteroids are widely used in Italian patients when their use is generally discouraged. Did he simply skip reading any other articles on the novel coronavirus in the lancet after finding a table to his liking or did he intentionally misrepresent the information available to convince viewers without any knowledge on the subject to believe his questionable conclusions? So we established that for some reason that quack believes that Italian doctors are widely treating patients with corticosteroids based on a single example (from China) found in the lancet, while multiple other articles in the lancet explicitly recommend against the use of corticosteroids. He also claims that Italian doctors indiscriminately use antibiotics to treat patients. The origin of this claim is another mystery given that there seem to be no articles in the lancet promoting such use, but there is at least one suggesting antibiotics only in cases of bacterial infections + Show Spoiler +. Then he also assumes (without any proof) that patients are just blindly pumped with antivirals. Well, he admitted that he wasn’t there to know for sure. Neither was I. But an article like this one here + Show Spoiler +https://www.osborneclarke.com/insights/summary-italian-medicines-agencys-aifa-press-releases-measures-covid-19-emergency-17-march-2020/ discussing Italian Medicines Agency’s intention to allow specific drugs for off-label use in Covid-19 patients and to start clinical trials with them strongly suggests that off-label medication is not allowed in Italy without former approval by their medicines agency. I could not find any such approvals from Italy about the drugs the questionable doctor mentioned from the case in China. Maybe you have better luck than me finding them? Or you can just choose to believe some clown’s wild guesses. And going back to your perception of “reasonable assessments” from the quack doctor, let’s see what else he said: - He did not miss to throw in a mention how the AIDS medications used on the one Chinese patient are “extremely toxic stuff”. I’d say it is common knowledge that most drugs are “extremely toxic stuff” given in excess amount and are only applied in cases where the risk-benefit expectation is positive. If that’s the case for drugs in Covid-19 patients is beyond me (and probably beyond him), but it is worth mentioning that this health care professional is the kind of person who does not believe that HIV causes AIDS. Apparently, a current sample size of around 38 million individuals in not enough for him to see any causation here… (source: + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fTBt4sOJOc ) - He claims that doctors are always “on the safe side” when they try “everything” and if they do not attempt “everything” and the patient dies, “they have a problem”. Yeah, it almost sounds reasonable. Next time he gets a patient with a stroke in his office, he should pump him full of antibiotics and antivirals, and then try to explain to the medical commission how he “tried everything”. Using random drugs for a treatment of a health problem they are not licensed for is inadmissible. This applies to Germany as well as Italy and probably everywhere around the world. Considering that he does not provide any sources for off-label use of the drugs in question being allowed in Italy, his statement is not just a wild guess but actually factually wrong. - He states that politicians take extreme measures to be on the safe side and profit from preventing “the epidemic that was never there”. Really?? “The epidemic that was never there”??? Gee, if he says so then I guess the WHO must be mistaken about the pandemic that was never there. I guess Xi Jinping, Merkel, Trump and countless other heads of state just agreed upon helping each other solidify each other’s power grips with some fictional pandemic. Sounds totally believable, I guess. I could go on and on about this guy’s senseless ramblings but it is getting too late and if my point has not come across by now, I doubt that any further reasoning would yield a different result. By the way, they unironically announced that next week the clown will explain the connection between the novel coronavirus and HIV. I just can’t wait to tune in and find out what groundbreaking discoveries this unique genius has made… Ultimately, I wonder how you can accommodate the cognitive dissonance of saying that “you shouldn't believe every horror story getting posted out there” while readily believing a random 5 minute story from some guy talking on a channel known for having the credibility of a totalitarian regime’s state media.
I did not even consider this doctor guy missquoting. That's on me and I apologize.
I have/ had high regard for every medical professional, but I guess every field has it's black sheep.
Great and very informative post!
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+ Show Spoiler + On March 25 2020 11:10 ggrrg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2020 04:01 Harris1st wrote:On March 25 2020 01:23 DarkGamer wrote:On March 24 2020 22:21 Harris1st wrote:On March 24 2020 21:03 DarkGamer wrote:On March 24 2020 18:35 ggrrg wrote:On March 24 2020 15:41 Harris1st wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Haven't been following this thread closely these last few days, so I'm not sure if this has been posted yet. Anyway, there is an interview with a German doctor (who also wrote a book H5N1, SARS and others) saying many (almost half!) of the tests are false positives. So far so good. Then he goes on about how treating Covid is wrong in almost all cases. People just need to rest 2 weeks and will most likely surive. His ground for this statement is a wrong treatment of a 50 yr old male who got stuffed with pretty much every pill there is until his immun system gave up and he died. He also thinks this may be the case in Italy and why their mortality rate is so much higher than everywhere else. I'm looking for more sources Right now I can only give you this German YT https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzTr_RjtgUkEDIT: This is not supposed so be some conspiracy , tin foil hat thingy. Just wanted to share this It is quite sad to see how easily all kinds of buffoons can spread their mental diarrhea over the internet. In 3 days, 650k people just became a tiny bit dumber by watching this video… I could write an entire essay evaluating manipulation technics just based on that 24 minute clip. My conclusion would probably be that the doc can learn quite a bit from his hosts. His statements are too jumpy and do not manage to establish even a superficially logical train of thought. One needs to already be predisposed to buying the bullshit he is selling to believe him. The show itself is on a whole different level. It is a non-stop chain of subtle pricks and prods at the viewers’ world views. It does not go overboard with loaded statements, but gradually nudges the viewer in certain directions to subliminally instill particular ideas. I still have to admit that I lost it at a certain point, when the show host asked “Is the media critical enough in times of crisis?”. Very rich coming from RT’s propaganda department. Im glad someone is seeing clearly here. Beside that, its just characteristically how i directly prove with facts that a statement is wrong just to see that no one cares and the same person tells us that its always good to hear different points of view. NO ITS NOT. Facts dont lie. We should always seperate facts with fiction. Excuse me? That's a really high horse you are sitting on mate. There can be multiple reasons for false positives, just human error alone. Anyway, I posted the video more because of case he is discussing and I really don't wanna defend his opinion of what this doctor thinks about the testing. A few pages back people were wondering what the difference between Italy and other countries is and the "treatment" might be one of them. I don't know and I don't pretend to know Its not my horse. I quoted the inventor and executor of the validity check. I guess he knows best, right? I never said that human errors cant occur. Your reasoning doesnt fit the discussion Its well known what are the factors for different mortality rates. U just have to listen to the experts (not the Conspiracy theorists). 1. Test groups: For example in italian the most tested people were the ones in the hospitals. Very often old people and often with pre-existing illness. Therefore the fall mortality is pretty high. In germany there are much more younger people tested. They often had no pre-existing illness. Therefore the fall mortality is far lower. Btw its very important that these numbers right now are NOT Infection mortality but fall mortality. If you dont unterstand the difference you cant understand the numbers AT ALL. 2. Healthcare system: Very complex theme but the point is that if the health system is overwhelmed, the mortality rate increases rapidly as triage occurs. thats the case in italy. btw experts assume that the mortality rate is 1 percent. that's 5-10x more than a flu and without the collapse of the health system! i hope u get the point. and experts also warn against spreading every theory. that only makes things worse and unsettles people. hence my appeal to stay with facts. ... He quotes the Lancet, which THE most renowned medical journal. Seems to me these are experts, Don't you think? It's not a theory, it's a case study... seriously dude. ... Show nested quote +On March 24 2020 22:43 Vivax wrote:On March 24 2020 17:57 Harris1st wrote:On March 24 2020 17:02 Acrofales wrote:On March 24 2020 15:41 Harris1st wrote:Haven't been following this thread closely these last few days, so I'm not sure if this has been posted yet. Anyway, there is an interview with a German doctor (who also wrote a book H5N1, SARS and others) saying many (almost half!) of the tests are false positives. So far so good. Then he goes on about how treating Covid is wrong in almost all cases. People just need to rest 2 weeks and will most likely surive. His ground for this statement is a wrong treatment of a 50 yr old male who got stuffed with pretty much every pill there is until his immun system gave up and he died. He also thinks this may be the case in Italy and why their mortality rate is so much higher than everywhere else. I'm looking for more sources Right now I can only give you this German YT https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzTr_RjtgUkEDIT: This is not supposed so be some conspiracy , tin foil hat thingy. Just wanted to share this Not a very reliable source, but if the best treatment was"sit at home and rest" the mortality rate wouldn't be between 1-4%. For a lot of patients I have no doubt that sicking it out at home *is* the best treatment. That's the 80%. The problem is the 20% who develop pneumonia and other severe symptoms. I also have no doubt that with the stress on medical institutions right now, mistakes are being made and some people *are* receiving the wrong treatment. That doesn't mean the right treatment for pneumonia is to sit at home and pray. I'm not saying I agree with everything he says. Just wanted to share this so people can make up their own minds. And it's always useful to have more than one perspectives The RKI says mortality cases have an average age of 82. That's pretty good news I think. Seems like Germany will not become Italy 2.0 Sees doctor quoting The Lancet on the case of a 50y-old who got stuffed with experimental treatments with no regard to interactions and died and says "not a very reliable source". Wtf man. I watched it and he has been very reasonable with his assessments, also mentioning that you shouldn't believe every horror story getting posted out there. Stick to medical journals. Still around 6% Case fatality ratio untreated vs. 0.7-0.9% treated according to sciencedirect sources, which is very close to the flu. Around 11% CFR in Italy tho wow, might say more about the quality of healthcare there when comparing it to Germany. https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html?CDC_AA_refVal=https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/burden.htm. And sometimes a bad treatment is worse than the disease. If I'm not mistaken the most accurate viral tests are based on antibody detection, not PCR (which gets distorted by the tiniest contaminations). I am sorry to inform you, Vivax, but attesting the Doctor “reasonable assessments” says more about you than it does about his credibility. First of all, Acrofales’ statement of “not a very reliable source” is clearly aimed at the youtube channel, which is a perfectly objective description. As far as the article from the Lancet is considered, maybe actually reading it could help better understand the issues at hand instead of just blindly believing the conclusion that guy draws from a single picture. article: + Show Spoiler +Upon admission a chest x-ray of the patient shows “multiple patchy shadows in both lungs”. The post-mortem biopsy shows that he was suffering from acute respiratory distress syndrome, which by itself has a death rate of 35-50% + Show Spoiler +https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acute_respiratory_distress_syndrome . The treatment for ARDS when not acquired with a SARS-CoV-2 infection does not include any of the drugs the patient in question received – the 35-50% death rate applies when these drugs are not given. This alone already suggests that sitting it out and hoping for the best is a rather mediocre option when you have a patient with an already heavily life-threatening illness alongside other health issues. Furthermore, there has been another case-study from China (also posted in the lancet) examining the effectiveness of the treatment the patient received + Show Spoiler +. I cannot evaluate the findings of the study and it is outside of the scope of the issue at hand anyway. However, the study shows that 38% of the patients who had ARDS and received the treatment died, which is well within the expected 35-50% mortality and does not suggest an increased death rate. By the way, the standard procedure for treating ARDS in severe cases includes the use of extracorporeal membrane oxygenation, which the patient kept refusing due to his claustrophobia – thus his chance of survival is already expected to be lower than the average chance in ARDS patients. Then the good doctor from the clip rants on about the use of corticosteroids and their danger. The very article he bases his claims on includes a statement warning about the use of corticosteroids and only suggests using them in specific cases. Not only that but the Chinese case study I linked above only used corticosteroids in 22% of the patients. On top of that, the lancet itself includes multiple articles discussing the use of corticosteroids in Covid-19 patients and their danger. Multiple ones explicitly do not recommend using corticosteroids (for example this one: + Show Spoiler +). So I wonder how this phony doctor reached the conclusion that corticosteroids are widely used in Italian patients when their use is generally discouraged. Did he simply skip reading any other articles on the novel coronavirus in the lancet after finding a table to his liking or did he intentionally misrepresent the information available to convince viewers without any knowledge on the subject to believe his questionable conclusions? So we established that for some reason that quack believes that Italian doctors are widely treating patients with corticosteroids based on a single example (from China) found in the lancet, while multiple other articles in the lancet explicitly recommend against the use of corticosteroids. He also claims that Italian doctors indiscriminately use antibiotics to treat patients. The origin of this claim is another mystery given that there seem to be no articles in the lancet promoting such use, but there is at least one suggesting antibiotics only in cases of bacterial infections + Show Spoiler +. Then he also assumes (without any proof) that patients are just blindly pumped with antivirals. Well, he admitted that he wasn’t there to know for sure. Neither was I. But an article like this one here + Show Spoiler +https://www.osborneclarke.com/insights/summary-italian-medicines-agencys-aifa-press-releases-measures-covid-19-emergency-17-march-2020/ discussing Italian Medicines Agency’s intention to allow specific drugs for off-label use in Covid-19 patients and to start clinical trials with them strongly suggests that off-label medication is not allowed in Italy without former approval by their medicines agency. I could not find any such approvals from Italy about the drugs the questionable doctor mentioned from the case in China. Maybe you have better luck than me finding them? Or you can just choose to believe some clown’s wild guesses. And going back to your perception of “reasonable assessments” from the quack doctor, let’s see what else he said: - He did not miss to throw in a mention how the AIDS medications used on the one Chinese patient are “extremely toxic stuff”. I’d say it is common knowledge that most drugs are “extremely toxic stuff” given in excess amount and are only applied in cases where the risk-benefit expectation is positive. If that’s the case for drugs in Covid-19 patients is beyond me (and probably beyond him), but it is worth mentioning that this health care professional is the kind of person who does not believe that HIV causes AIDS. Apparently, a current sample size of around 38 million individuals in not enough for him to see any causation here… (source: + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fTBt4sOJOc ) - He claims that doctors are always “on the safe side” when they try “everything” and if they do not attempt “everything” and the patient dies, “they have a problem”. Yeah, it almost sounds reasonable. Next time he gets a patient with a stroke in his office, he should pump him full of antibiotics and antivirals, and then try to explain to the medical commission how he “tried everything”. Using random drugs for a treatment of a health problem they are not licensed for is inadmissible. This applies to Germany as well as Italy and probably everywhere around the world. Considering that he does not provide any sources for off-label use of the drugs in question being allowed in Italy, his statement is not just a wild guess but actually factually wrong. - He states that politicians take extreme measures to be on the safe side and profit from preventing “the epidemic that was never there”. Really?? “The epidemic that was never there”??? Gee, if he says so then I guess the WHO must be mistaken about the pandemic that was never there. I guess Xi Jinping, Merkel, Trump and countless other heads of state just agreed upon helping each other solidify each other’s power grips with some fictional pandemic. Sounds totally believable, I guess. I could go on and on about this guy’s senseless ramblings but it is getting too late and if my point has not come across by now, I doubt that any further reasoning would yield a different result. By the way, they unironically announced that next week the clown will explain the connection between the novel coronavirus and HIV. I just can’t wait to tune in and find out what groundbreaking discoveries this unique genius has made… Ultimately, I wonder how you can accommodate the cognitive dissonance of saying that “you shouldn't believe every horror story getting posted out there” while readily believing a random 5 minute story from some guy talking on a channel known for having the credibility of a totalitarian regime’s state media. And going back to your perception of “reasonable assessments” from the quack doctor, let’s see what else he said:
- He did not miss to throw in a mention how the AIDS medications used on the one Chinese patient are “extremely toxic stuff”. I’d say it is common knowledge that most drugs are “extremely toxic stuff” given in excess amount and are only applied in cases where the risk-benefit expectation is positive. If that’s the case for drugs in Covid-19 patients is beyond me (and probably beyond him), but it is worth mentioning that this health care professional is the kind of person who does not believe that HIV causes AIDS. Apparently, a current sample size of around 38 million individuals in not enough for him to see any causation here…
Common knowledge that everything in excess is toxic dodges the approach that some toxins are toxins no matter the amount.
Some aids medications have for example mustard gas in there, that were used in world war to murder people. This is extremely toxic even when not in ...excess...
https://scienceblog.cancerresearchuk.org/2014/08/27/mustard-gas-from-the-great-war-to-frontline-chemotherapy/
Further more, when we talk about science democracy or populary contests do not apply. Its the DATA that matter and the DATA purely that matters.
A current sample size of 38 million does NOT SHOW CAUSATION, you could have 50 billion people tested and not have causation either. Why? Because its a question of wether the testing is good or not good. Very simple, very straight forward.
Do you even know how the testing is done? Its a FALSE-POSITIVE testing. This does not show any causation what so ever.
Testing antibodies does not now show AT ALL whether someone has HIV or not HIV.
The testing are based on A LOT of assumptions.
- IT DOES NOT SHOW WHETER SOMEONE HAS A VIRUS
- EVEN IF SOMEONE HAS A VIRUS, DOES NOT SHOW THAT THIS VIRUS CAUSES DISEASE
If someone does this test, gets a "positive" which is still based on ASSUMPTION and then gets treated with TOXIC MEDICINE and then dies.
The patient could be said to die from HIV which there is no proof of AT ALL. Talk about dodging the bullet with this approach.
Its called an ELISA-test and can be read about in the link.
https://www.healthline.com/health/elisa?fbclid=IwAR1Lkp6WZFc3zp5cWsmKXNL0wwGkpH7S9KJ4EjarlzfD2HXKPhuK_c_2Jlw
By the way, they unironically announced that next week the clown will explain the connection between the novel coronavirus and HIV. I just can’t wait to tune in and find out what groundbreaking discoveries this unique genius has made…
Maybe its the same bullshit as above? Tests that are based on assumptions? You dont have to be a genius to find that out, you just have to understand how the fundamental science is applied, look at the data AND NOT look at the populary contest and "consensus" pseudo-science bullshit.
These tests are PCR-TESTS, they check for particles from the cells.
..You guessed it.. ASSUMPTIONS yet again.. Its some deep science over here. Cells can die, and particles come from the cells, its an assumption that its a virus in there, and that this virus in there is causing the damage.
You could as well just assume its the LIFESTYLE for example, or assume its the medicial condition which the patient had prior to that that causes the "real" damage etc.
But nah.. Lets start a pandemic instead even though statistics on "normal" flu has more deaths etc.
PCR-test link:
https://www.medicinenet.com/pcr_polymerase_chain_reaction/article.htm
User was temp banned for this post.
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I was wondering when you would find this thread. Putting things in capitals does not make them true.
I am aware of what a PCR test is. I spent three years doing them to get a PhD. PCR does not detect particles. PCR detects RNA/DNA. The genetic material from the virus is quite district from the material in human cells.
For someone who advocates looking at the data, you seem to have not bothered much with it yourself.
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wondering if the recession will be as bad as in the US of A in 1929-39..
Hopefully not, but it doesn't look good at all atm
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EPT
