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On January 02 2022 05:16 Racket wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2022 04:55 JimmiC wrote:On January 02 2022 04:37 Racket wrote:On January 02 2022 04:08 JimmiC wrote:On January 02 2022 03:42 Racket wrote:On January 02 2022 02:26 JimmiC wrote:On January 02 2022 00:42 Razyda wrote:On December 31 2021 21:53 RKC wrote:
I don't know any anti-vaxxer personally. But it's not puzzling at all how their minds could potentially operate.
Perhaps they feel the virus is nothing exeptionally unusual and will eventually infect enough people for herd immunity to be reached (and vaccination hinders this natural process of evolution). Perhaps they accept that the virus is an anomaly but are prepared to accept this risk as being part of life and death.
The extreme ones believe in some tin-pot government conspiracy or cosmic forces at play. But most likely they are the minority amongst the entire anti-vax community.
I've heard of a story from a friend (purely hearsay) of a professional, intelligent and elderly person who died from COVID. Not vaccinated. Till the very end, on the hospital bed, the person remained in good spirits that he would overcome the virus. In denial until death. Sad.
Of course I share many of your frustration against these misguided folks. But I don't harbour any contempt for them, but more of pity. Maybe if we try to understand their mindset more, we can come up with a better governmental policy that could nudge them towards vaccination. And if we find out that their beliefs are really irrational, then governments can justify taking a harder stance against them (mandatory isolation, denial of health benefits, etc).
What that puzzles me more is why governments are on one hand pushing hard the message that "no one is safe until everyone is vaccinated" but on the other hand then stopped short of going harder against the unvaccinated. Maybe politics get in the way. But a middle-ground approach is bound to leave some skeptics unpersuaded.
In short, I'm not really surprised why some people remain as anti-vaxxers, and why governments find it difficult to convert them. While I dont think I am anti-vaxxer (I just dont care if others get vaccinated, or not, it is up to them) I didnt however get vaccinated and I am not planning to get vaccine. Before people jump on me: yes Covid exists, yes I put mask on when required and I do self isolate when needed. Thing with above is that they are just minor annoyances, which I can live with. Vaccines though: First of all - I knew Covid will wash over me, I was sick plenty as a kid and now I am reaping benefits of it, I dont even remember when last time I had viral infection with some serious symptoms. In case of Covid I like sneezed twice and felt a bit off for 1 day. Didnt even bother to take time off from work (I work from home btw). So it is pretty much "if is not broken, dont fix it" situation. The point at which I knew I wont get vaccinated was when it turned out that every Vaccine producer wanted legal immunity (I mean like seriously what the ..., law is cool concept, but it shouldnt apply to me??, how did anyone agreed to that, how is that even actually legal?). I am sorry, but if you manufactured something and want to inject me with it, you will take responsibility, or you can inject yourself. Then it is a case of: where apropriate insert "millions vaccinated later" You want get sick You want be contagious You want have heavy symptoms You want have to be hospitalized You want die You may die, but the risk is smaller If that doesnt prove that they didnt really knew what vaccine actually do, at the time when they started vaccinate people then I dont know what does. Nobody (unless they have time machine) knows what long term effects of vaccines are. Yes we also dont know what long term effects of Covid are, but vaccine doesnt prevent you from getting Covid, so basically if you get vaccine you changing 1 unknown for 2. When it comes to my health I'll rather stick with 1 unknown. As for me needing tinfoil hat - if believing that for large business, primary goal is to make money (look at Pfizzer profit) and everything else is secondary, makes me crazy, then yes I probably need one. Its odd to me that you "knew" many people knew and got really sick. And yes all the people tealling you to get vaccinated are injecting themselves, in fact most of those saying not to, or you shouldt have too are also injecting thrmselves. Its also odd to me that your bout with covid has changed since your post in march. I am pretty sure i had an actual coronavirus as early as 1 January and my wife 2 weeks later.
All the symptoms matched and while for me it was like really bad flu, my wife was 3 weeks barely able to move with doctors changing antibiotics and openly admitting they dont know what is happening. Your logic on future risk is really terrible. In very sinplistic terms the vaccines are much weaker to get you antibodis active to fight tge real thing, why would that be worse? In terms of actual information we have now the long term effects of covid are exponetially worse than the virus and those who had the vaccine and the virus are having way less. Given that your logic is flawed, and the scant bit of information you have provided here is incredibily inconsitent it is probably not wise to continue to rely on what you "know" and better to trust in the experts with way more, better data and have much better and unbiased ways of making determinations. Yes pfizer is making profits, but goverments are also doing calculations and guess what vaccinating your populace is WAY cheaper than dealing with those who get really sick and need hospital care and its not close. Think of how dumb we would think an engineer was to not put oil in 100 machines each month (for 2 bucks) if we knew that kept them from blowing up but if he does not 2 will blow up a year (each costing 500,000). No one would be like why are you wasting that oil on 98 machines that do not need it you are just funding that oil producer. Germany spent almost 1.000.000.000 € tax money on vaccines, gave some more money to hospitals to support them through the pandemic with no actual regulations on how a hospital can get it resulting on a loss of 7.000 hospital beds so institutions in no need for money could actually apply for the benefit, reducing that way also the maintenance costs. At the same time, hospitals that actually needed it got zero support which turned into Germany losing around 20 hospitals in 2020. If the money spent on vaccines went to the health care system, Germany would have had better support and care not only for treating COVID, but also other diseases, not only for 2020 but for the coming future. Now the country is not only complaining about the stress on the health care system (no wonder when you lost 7.000 beds), but also not even showing improvement in terms of mortality and excess mortality, having an overall higher mortality for all causes in 2021 compared to 2020. On top of that, lets say a family father gets vaccinated and dies for instance of heart failure, no one ever never nowhere will be held accountable for that and that family will have to find a new way to survive, so if that father were to decide for himself not to take that risk and rather get COVID, he is already paying for the health care system, he has been paying for that since he started working, he is not paying for past treatments but rather for probable incoming needed treatments given his age and preexisting conditions based on calculations made by the system, he might have to pay more to include the risks of this new disease. Just as no one will have to care for his family when he is gone, he won't have to care for someone else's family when that one is gone. So if everyone if free to choose what to eat, drink and do with their own body each day (which has an impact on what that father pays to the health care system), he should be free too, that includes whether he gets vaccinated or not. There are countries where you won't be admitted to the hospital if you are not vaccinated, but no one is free enough to open a hospital for non-vaccinated only so they won't be a risk for the vaccinated and they are "forced" to pay for a probable treatment they are not allowed to get. This and much more can be said for and against someone's way of thinking. As for me, believing in politicians was never my thing, this whole thing is run by politicians, who pick rather cunningly the experts on the matter. If we are really really free, we have to respect the freedom of others and that includes their decision on getting vaccinated. We all contribute to the system, and everyone's taxes are paying not only for the health care system, but also for the vaccines, if that is not a good enough solution, we should look for a new one. Arguing about the risk a non-vaccinated individual poses to the health care system, given a majority of the population has been vaccinated, reducing the stress on the system, the risk of being of hospitalized and dying of the disease (as the narrative says), is completely besides the point. If the vaccine really works as the narrative tells, then we should be seeing an improvement in all fronts. If the excuse is non-vaccinated "giving birth" to new strains, how will each country deal with countries with less than 100% vaccination rate? Will they not allow any citizen traveling there? How? Will the whole population forcefully vaccinated to then fall to a business trip? Will imports be prohibited from such countries? Will animals be shot down on the spot while going over the "line", because they might be carrying a new strain? We might support some ideas, but we also have to think for ourselves. All of this ranges from mis information to nonsense. the entire cost of the pandemic in Germany is 1.3 trillion not the cost of vaccines. they have spent 6.2 billion on Vaccines, notice that is less then 1% of the total cost. Imagine just making up that many words and then posting them as if they were true. Amumoman is that you? https://www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-germany-faces-13-trillion-covid-bill/a-56103251https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-05/germany-to-spend-up-to-7-3-billion-on-virus-vaccination-drive You have to search properly: https://www.fiercepharma.com/manufacturing/biontech-curevac-bag-745m-german-funding-for-covid-19-vaccine-hopefulsThat is September 2020, we are now in January 2022. And just so you actually know what you linked: - I wrote "1.000.000.000 €" (my link states hopefuls for 745.000.000 €) - Your article says "€1.3 trillion" which is "1.300.000.000.000" (more than thousand times my figure) - You say "they have spent 6.2 billion on Vaccines" which is "6.200.000.000 €" (more than six times my figure) So, now tell me how is your argument not making mine any better? I would gladly strengthen my health care system with 6.2 billion euros to not only care for COVID but also many other diseases afflicting the population. Because without the vaccine the costs would have been much greater, its not hard math. Your argument amounts to we shouldn't put oil in our cars because if we didn't we could have a couple more bays to fix all the exploded engines, without any understanding that preventing blown up engines is way cheaper and better than having more bays. It costs about 20 bucks per shot, it costs 25k per night in hospital on average. That is before you get to all the economic costs. https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/brief/unvaccinated-covid-patients-cost-the-u-s-health-system-billions-of-dollars/If you can't see that 6.2 billion is a drop in the bucket compared to the 1.3 trillion cost. And if you don't believe vaccines are safe and effective then no amount of talk is going to change that because the data is clear. I'm not sure what sources you would trust so here is a whole pile of them. http://www.bccdc.ca/about/news-stories/stories/2021/covid-19-vaccine-effectiveness-resultshttps://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/covid-19-vaccines-effective-in-preventing-hospitalization-and-er-visitshttps://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2021/11/covid-19-vaccines-85-effective-against-hospital-cases-weaken-over-timehttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7709178/https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-vaccine-reduce-idUSL1N2PC2O9https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/covid-vaccines-illness-death-risk-1.6171958https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanam/article/PIIS2667-193X(21)00061-2/fulltexthttps://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2021/dec/us-covid-19-vaccination-program-one-year-how-many-deaths-andhttps://www.cnn.com/2021/04/28/health/covid-19-vaccines-reduce-hospitalization-cdc-study/index.htmlhttps://www.publichealthontario.ca/-/media/documents/ncov/covid-wwksf/2021/04/wwksf-vaccine-effectiveness.pdf?la=enhttps://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2021-10-05/study-pfizer-vaccine-90-effective-against-hospitalization-for-6-months To not go astray and discuss a different topic, the point is the decision about taking the shot or not. It is a personal decision, the government can give you all the information needed to make a decision (being it economic based, health based, etc.), the decision is still yours. If someone decides not to take the shot but 65%+ of the population took it, it should without a doubt have a positive impact, the risk of not being vaccinated resting solely on the non-vaccinated. Why? Because vaccinated are protected, their risk of being hospitalized and dying reduced. Reduction of bed days and reduction of stress on the health care system should be noticeable. Non-vaccinated being hospitalized should be a manageable situation if we managed 100% non-vaccinated+unprepared. If we are prepared to force vaccinate people based on health reasons, then lets banish alcohol, drugs, unhealthy food, sedentary ways of living and much much more. This way we will reduce a lot of health care system's costs and improve the way we care for others.
I'm on the forced vaccination train because frankly I'm tired of my tax dollars being wasted on the unvaccinated. I'm also tired of hearing stories of surgeries being postponed and people dying of preventable causes because there are too many people hospitalized with covid. If I had broken my wrist just 3 months later, I probably would have a lifelong disability as it would've set in horrid position when surgeries were cancelled. Instead I have a plate and a wrist that still works.
When the cost of a hospital stay is hundreds or thousands of times more than the cost of a vaccine, and the benefits have add-on value (one prevented isolation+5 close contacts at my workplace would be a 5 figure sum already of value, and any spread just adds on to that), there's no cost benefit argument to be made against vaccination. None. Omicron will probably hit all the unvaccinated, but they'll run crying to the hospital all the same when they can't breathe, and my tax dollars still have to pay for it.
Forced vaccination would probably be one of the highest ROI programs in existence. Since clearly intelligence and logic isn't a strong suit, we can do the thinking for them, and they can go back to Cletus-land afterwards.
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On January 02 2022 05:34 WombaT wrote:
Those other things are not highly contagious diseases, they’re also not exactly easy to do.
Aside from popping a pill, there’s almost nothing simpler than getting vaccinated, maintaining basically every aspect of physical/mental health is more to significantly more effort.
I’m unclear whether you even oppose vaccination, and if so whether it’s through principle, or cost objections or what.
We are talking about a vaccine protecting the vaccinated, how is force vaccinating those not willing to do it when the majority already did it, in a country where the health care system was never close to the collapse going to achieve anything?
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I see many of you buy too much into the narrative and reference what it is said in the media.
We are in a society, everything we do has an impact on everyone else, whether we see it or not. When people are overweight, drink alcohol and take drugs, live sedentary lives or whatever they do that has an negative impact on their health, it has an impact on the system. The system has to adapt to such impact, rising costs and investment in areas, that with a population with better health, could be directed towards other improvements.
The same with what people buy or goes for vacations, you can strengthen your country or other countries. It is like "I want to live in the society I want to live in, and you have to do it my way or go away", how is that going to accomplish anything? Either we live in a society where we tolerate each other and we give each other space for respectful individuality and share our own ways or we give each other a worthy alternative.
If we are not allowed to choose what we do with our own body, why are we allowed to choose which direction the economy takes? Should we reconsider who is allowed to vote? Or are we just feeling confident when we talk about economy and fearful when it has to do with health? Maybe not in the same way but "poverty" is also "contagious", a lot of countries were ruined because of mere four years of a bad president.
Thanks for the exchange and good night.
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Northern Ireland25419 Posts
On January 02 2022 05:56 Racket wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2022 05:34 WombaT wrote:
Those other things are not highly contagious diseases, they’re also not exactly easy to do.
Aside from popping a pill, there’s almost nothing simpler than getting vaccinated, maintaining basically every aspect of physical/mental health is more to significantly more effort.
I’m unclear whether you even oppose vaccination, and if so whether it’s through principle, or cost objections or what.
We are talking about a vaccine protecting the vaccinated, how is force vaccinating those not willing to do it when the majority already did it, in a country where the health care system was never close to the collapse going to achieve anything?
I don’t know. Folks come from a variety of countries here, or areas within countries and there may be little or no strain on health services, or a lot. Vaccination rates vary a lot too.
I don’t know what the threshold for effective population wide coverage is, and what the capacity of hospitals is across myriad countries. I don’t know how Omicron plays into these either.
I’m not sure anyone actually knows this at this stage, given I haven’t come across analyses of these that is close to definitive rather than speculative.
Hospitalisation isn’t the only important metric. As already pointed out, needlessly losing work hours, or forcing others to have to isolate has a large cumulative cost as well.
A healthcare system does not have to be approaching collapse to be needlessly strained, even if it has the capacity to cope.
Needlessly being the operative word.
As I’ve already said, I don’t know what vaccination thresholds would be critical, but hypothetically if there was some magic number, then yes I’d be in favour of forced vaccinations.
I don’t believe such a number exists, or if it does we don’t know what it is for sure, yet. And things might shift yet again with a new widespread variant.
Why not get the vaccine? It’s such a no-brainier it’s unbelievable, ultimately. On a personal risk/reward level, on a beneficial to those close to you level and on a macro population wide level.
Ultimately do I think people should be forced, no not really. But their decision is, almost invariably nonsensical and outside of very niche, understandable cases I don’t respect that decision at all.
That’s all, not going to advocate for compulsory vaccination, or particularly argue with those who don’t want the vaccine, I think it’s a stupid position and I’m not especially interested in regurgitating the same arguments in perpetuity.
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Northern Ireland25419 Posts
On January 02 2022 06:27 Racket wrote:
I see many of you buy too much into the narrative and reference what it is said in the media.
We are in a society, everything we do has an impact on everyone else, whether we see it or not. When people are overweight, drink alcohol and take drugs, live sedentary lives or whatever they do that has an negative impact on their health, it has an impact on the system. The system has to adapt to such impact, rising costs and investment in areas, that with a population with better health, could be directed towards other improvements.
The same with what people buy or goes for vacations, you can strengthen your country or other countries. It is like "I want to live in the society I want to live in, and you have to do it my way or go away", how is that going to accomplish anything? Either we live in a society where we tolerate each other and we give each other space for respectful individuality and share our own ways or we give each other a worthy alternative.
If we are not allowed to choose what we do with our own body, why are we allowed to choose which direction the economy takes? Should we reconsider who is allowed to vote? Or are we just feeling confident when we talk about economy and fearful when it has to do with health? Maybe not in the same way but "poverty" is also "contagious", a lot of countries were ruined because of mere four years of a bad president.
Thanks for the exchange and good night.
What is the non-vaccinating alternative here?
Smoking is a stupid habit I sadly have, I’m taxed out the arse for it and I don’t smoke around other people, which is a reasonable trade off with my own personal autonomy, IMO
Drinking, being overweight are more complex, multifaceted issues. Worth tackling societally but, difficult to tackle for oh so many ways, and ultimately there’s a trade off.
One can make a perfectly legitimate exception for vaccination status without having to tear up our existing frameworks for freedom and bodily and political autonomy.
In the crudest sense those opposed to vaccination want to skirt a pretty reasonable process, with zero consequences outside of perhaps social conflict and censure for doing so.
Thanks for engaging with the thread, until next time
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On January 02 2022 06:27 Racket wrote:
I see many of you buy too much into the narrative and reference what it is said in the media.
We are in a society, everything we do has an impact on everyone else, whether we see it or not. When people are overweight, drink alcohol and take drugs, live sedentary lives or whatever they do that has an negative impact on their health, it has an impact on the system. The system has to adapt to such impact, rising costs and investment in areas, that with a population with better health, could be directed towards other improvements.
The same with what people buy or goes for vacations, you can strengthen your country or other countries. It is like "I want to live in the society I want to live in, and you have to do it my way or go away", how is that going to accomplish anything?
Numerous studies have been shown that vaccine mandates increase vaccination, not people leaving the country. Seattle PD said half their force would retire rather than get vaxed. 97% got vaxed. Mandating common decency is a core tenet of society. As you said, we live in a society. The entire reason rules are established is because certain people weren't following common decency to begin with. When we impose decency, society benefits. There will always be people saying "Why can't we all get along" when they are salty about being asked to do better. This isn't new and it isn't special.
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On January 02 2022 02:26 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2022 00:42 Razyda wrote:On December 31 2021 21:53 RKC wrote:
I don't know any anti-vaxxer personally. But it's not puzzling at all how their minds could potentially operate.
Perhaps they feel the virus is nothing exeptionally unusual and will eventually infect enough people for herd immunity to be reached (and vaccination hinders this natural process of evolution). Perhaps they accept that the virus is an anomaly but are prepared to accept this risk as being part of life and death.
The extreme ones believe in some tin-pot government conspiracy or cosmic forces at play. But most likely they are the minority amongst the entire anti-vax community.
I've heard of a story from a friend (purely hearsay) of a professional, intelligent and elderly person who died from COVID. Not vaccinated. Till the very end, on the hospital bed, the person remained in good spirits that he would overcome the virus. In denial until death. Sad.
Of course I share many of your frustration against these misguided folks. But I don't harbour any contempt for them, but more of pity. Maybe if we try to understand their mindset more, we can come up with a better governmental policy that could nudge them towards vaccination. And if we find out that their beliefs are really irrational, then governments can justify taking a harder stance against them (mandatory isolation, denial of health benefits, etc).
What that puzzles me more is why governments are on one hand pushing hard the message that "no one is safe until everyone is vaccinated" but on the other hand then stopped short of going harder against the unvaccinated. Maybe politics get in the way. But a middle-ground approach is bound to leave some skeptics unpersuaded.
In short, I'm not really surprised why some people remain as anti-vaxxers, and why governments find it difficult to convert them. While I dont think I am anti-vaxxer (I just dont care if others get vaccinated, or not, it is up to them) I didnt however get vaccinated and I am not planning to get vaccine. Before people jump on me: yes Covid exists, yes I put mask on when required and I do self isolate when needed. Thing with above is that they are just minor annoyances, which I can live with. Vaccines though: First of all - I knew Covid will wash over me, I was sick plenty as a kid and now I am reaping benefits of it, I dont even remember when last time I had viral infection with some serious symptoms. In case of Covid I like sneezed twice and felt a bit off for 1 day. Didnt even bother to take time off from work (I work from home btw). So it is pretty much "if is not broken, dont fix it" situation. The point at which I knew I wont get vaccinated was when it turned out that every Vaccine producer wanted legal immunity (I mean like seriously what the ..., law is cool concept, but it shouldnt apply to me??, how did anyone agreed to that, how is that even actually legal?). I am sorry, but if you manufactured something and want to inject me with it, you will take responsibility, or you can inject yourself. Then it is a case of: where apropriate insert "millions vaccinated later" You want get sick You want be contagious You want have heavy symptoms You want have to be hospitalized You want die You may die, but the risk is smaller If that doesnt prove that they didnt really knew what vaccine actually do, at the time when they started vaccinate people then I dont know what does. Nobody (unless they have time machine) knows what long term effects of vaccines are. Yes we also dont know what long term effects of Covid are, but vaccine doesnt prevent you from getting Covid, so basically if you get vaccine you changing 1 unknown for 2. When it comes to my health I'll rather stick with 1 unknown. As for me needing tinfoil hat - if believing that for large business, primary goal is to make money (look at Pfizzer profit) and everything else is secondary, makes me crazy, then yes I probably need one. Its odd to me that you "knew" many people knew and got really sick. And yes all the people tealling you to get vaccinated are injecting themselves, in fact most of those saying not to, or you shouldt have too are also injecting thrmselves. Its also odd to me that your bout with covid has changed since your post in march. Show nested quote +I am pretty sure i had an actual coronavirus as early as 1 January and my wife 2 weeks later.
All the symptoms matched and while for me it was like really bad flu, my wife was 3 weeks barely able to move with doctors changing antibiotics and openly admitting they dont know what is happening. Your logic on future risk is really terrible. In very sinplistic terms the vaccines are much weaker to get you antibodis active to fight tge real thing, why would that be worse? In terms of actual information we have now the long term effects of covid are exponetially worse than the virus and those who had the vaccine and the virus are having way less. Given that your logic is flawed, and the scant bit of information you have provided here is incredibily inconsitent it is probably not wise to continue to rely on what you "know" and better to trust in the experts with way more, better data and have much better and unbiased ways of making determinations. Yes pfizer is making profits, but goverments are also doing calculations and guess what vaccinating your populace is WAY cheaper than dealing with those who get really sick and need hospital care and its not close. Think of how dumb we would think an engineer was to not put oil in 100 machines each month (for 2 bucks) if we knew that kept them from blowing up but if he does not 2 will blow up a year (each costing 500,000). No one would be like why are you wasting that oil on 98 machines that do not need it you are just funding that oil producer.
The fact that something is odd to you quite frankly means nothing. The fact that earth circulate sun not the other way around seemed odd for many too. Simple fact is I knew I wont have problem with Covid and I didnt. However odd you find it, is honestly your problem.
Like mentioned I dont care if people get Vaccinated or not - I judge arguments based on merit of argument rather than on the person providing argument. If you read what I wrote rather than getting in religious zeal you would have noticed, that my main issue with vaccines comes from statements of manufacturers.
Good job digging my 2 year old post, not really sure what it has to do with Vaccines, as at the time of writing it, there was no vaccines whatsoever. Nothing I wrote then doesnt contradict what I wrote now (note that my Covid I referred to now, occurred this October) was. Even if it did - it is generally sign of healthy mind to change your opinion when new factors appear, rather than stick with old one despite them.
You saying that my logic is terrible, or flawed doesnt actually make it so. It is not even logic it is simple math. Trying to solve equation with one unavoidable variable with unknown range, makes you scientist, adding voluntarily and unnecessarily another variable with unknown range makes you crazy person for even trying. And as of now both - long term Covid and Vaccine effects are unknown variables. For all you know long term effect of vaccine may stop ageing, make people sh..t gold, or make aliens popping of their chests (all examples exaggerated in case you didnt got it). Thats in very "sinplistic terms" as you say it.
Yes goverment is doing calculations ( I am living in UK now, so it seems it is doing them partying during lockdowns), but your example of them is flawed. It should look like this:
we have 100 machines and need 100 engineers to keep them going just fine, but we may use random new oil and have only 25 engineers, risking that 2 machines will blow up. which is correct approach - it only sucks if you one of the 2 machines which blow up...
It is also quite amusing that while trying to discredit me and my opinion you didnt address any of the points I made against vaccinating.
On January 02 2022 05:51 Amui wrote:
I'm on the forced vaccination train because frankly I'm tired of my tax dollars being wasted on the unvaccinated.
I am with you mate, I am tired of my taxes going for people getting vaccinated and then paying for their hospital bills anyway. With unvaccinated at least I didnt waste x times 20 dollars where x equal 2 + random number of boosters.
While at it lets also start mass executions as I dont see why my taxes should be wasted on prison service.
Any more wise suggestions?
On January 02 2022 06:19 JimmiC wrote:
I'm not on the forced vaccination train but I'm getting closer based on every conversation with a person against vaccination not making any sense. What I would like to see is that the unvaccinated have to pay for any future hospital costs that they may incur due to covid. It is an opt out, if you opt out of the vaccine you opt out of paid for care. I would even be happy to give them a 50 dollar credit for the saving they had for not taking the vaccine. I would also make it that if they couldn't pay and there were not beds available they would have to wait at home, you would not delay any surgeries or procedures for anyone for people who choose to not get vaccinated.
Totally with you on that one, some things I would add though - give me back all of my NI money I paid, also add to this everyone using fast foods, smokers, drinkers, people not exercising, people not spending enough time on fresh air. Now clearly because smokers and drinkers aren't burden to anyone anymore remove tax from alcohol and tobacco.
On January 02 2022 05:12 maybenexttime wrote:
Razyda, where are you from?
Poland, but currently living in UK.
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Northern Ireland25419 Posts
Healthcare costs, and strain is a factor, it isn’t the only factor.
For one, vaccination isn’t 100% effective, so that argument that if you’re vaccinated it’s none of your business if others aren’t doesn’t really hold. If current vaccines did make you bulletproof, then yes people not vaccinating would impact me less, albeit I’d still disagree with that call.
Aside from more viral spread inevitably increasing the risk of mutations, with all that entails, which isn’t exactly ideal either.
On cost it’s an absolute no-brainier. Be it fewer hospital stays or staving off various lockdown measures, with the huge costs those entail.
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Poland, but currently living in UK.
Well, then you should know that indemnity for the vaccine manufacturers was never granted in Poland. As far as I know, in most of the EU, as well as in the UK it didn't extend outside the emergency authorisation. The vaccines have now been given full authorisation.
As for your worries about the long-term side effects of the vaccine, how do you suppose that would work, considering that the vaccine disappears from your body within weeks after the injection?
You're very selfish by the way. Do you also drink and drive because "you're a good driver" and are also far less likely to die in an accident than a random pedestrian you hit with your car?
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On January 01 2022 14:37 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2022 13:42 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On January 01 2022 00:37 WombaT wrote:
What’s the seemingly common obsession with Bill Gates in particular?
I’d rather not ‘research’ this much as I’m sure my brain would melt, but someone like a Mark Zuckerberg or a Jeff Bezos are active in running big tech giants and seem far more obvious candidates to attract the ire of the conspiratorially minded Like the guy or don't like the guy, you have to admit he has played a pretty huge part in the rollout of the vaccines.Surprised to see more on the left not attacking him more due to his obsession with maintaining IP rights for vaccines and medicines, drastically slowing the rollout in poorer countries..Follow the money. https://www.wired.com/story/opinion-the-world-loses-under-bill-gates-vaccine-colonialism/
Maintaining his steadfast commitment to intellectual property rights, Gates pushed for a plan that would permit companies to hold exclusive rights to lifesaving medicines, no matter how much they benefited from public funding. Given the enormous influence Gates has in the global public health world, his vision ultimately won out in the Covax program—which enshrines monopoly patent rights and relies on the charitable whims of rich countries and pharmaceutical giants to provide vaccines to most of the world. A chorus of support from pharmaceutical companies and the Trump administration didn’t hurt.
Hes a billionare attempting to maximise profits on something people need. You are supposed to love that and believe that some trickledown effect will help the rest of us. For somereason that is easier for many of you than the much more obvious conclusion, that there needs to be some rules to make things better and more eqiutible for everyone.
So we agree that many of the worlds richest are benefitting from the pandemic financially.Great stuff.
Governments mandating multiple injections per year in order for people to keep their jobs or do regular activities, whilst large corporations make tens of billions from these injections people are basically forced to take? Not free market, so not sure why i would 'love' it.
I mean explain it to me, how a company like Pfizer can lose from this deal.They have no legal or financial liability from side effects and their product is mandated for use multiple times per year for the entire 12+ population of countries.Whats wrong with being concerned about that and the way things are going.You have to be a conspiracy theorist to be concerned about all this?
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At that point, thinking that the booster doses are a plot by Pfizer to sell more vaccines is about as stupid as the notion that time is an invention of Rolex to sell more watches.
There is a effing virus, brother in case you missed it.
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Northern Ireland25419 Posts
On January 02 2022 22:22 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2022 14:37 JimmiC wrote:On January 01 2022 13:42 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On January 01 2022 00:37 WombaT wrote:
What’s the seemingly common obsession with Bill Gates in particular?
I’d rather not ‘research’ this much as I’m sure my brain would melt, but someone like a Mark Zuckerberg or a Jeff Bezos are active in running big tech giants and seem far more obvious candidates to attract the ire of the conspiratorially minded Like the guy or don't like the guy, you have to admit he has played a pretty huge part in the rollout of the vaccines.Surprised to see more on the left not attacking him more due to his obsession with maintaining IP rights for vaccines and medicines, drastically slowing the rollout in poorer countries..Follow the money. https://www.wired.com/story/opinion-the-world-loses-under-bill-gates-vaccine-colonialism/
Maintaining his steadfast commitment to intellectual property rights, Gates pushed for a plan that would permit companies to hold exclusive rights to lifesaving medicines, no matter how much they benefited from public funding. Given the enormous influence Gates has in the global public health world, his vision ultimately won out in the Covax program—which enshrines monopoly patent rights and relies on the charitable whims of rich countries and pharmaceutical giants to provide vaccines to most of the world. A chorus of support from pharmaceutical companies and the Trump administration didn’t hurt.
Hes a billionare attempting to maximise profits on something people need. You are supposed to love that and believe that some trickledown effect will help the rest of us. For somereason that is easier for many of you than the much more obvious conclusion, that there needs to be some rules to make things better and more eqiutible for everyone. So we agree that many of the worlds richest are benefitting from the pandemic financially.Great stuff. Governments mandating multiple injections per year in order for people to keep their jobs or do regular activities, whilst large corporations make tens of billions from these injections people are basically forced to take? Not free market, so not sure why i would 'love' it. I mean explain it to me, how a company like Pfizer can lose from this deal.They have no legal or financial liability from side effects and their product is mandated for use multiple times per year for the entire 12+ population of countries.Whats wrong with being concerned about that and the way things are going.You have to be a conspiracy theorist to be concerned about all this?
His point was there’s plenty to be concerned with based on the indisputable facts on the ground, there’s no need to be talking bollocks about injectable microchips or w/e
There’s also the somewhat bizarre perception that Bill Gates is both of, and loved by ‘the left’ I’ve encountered on my travels which is, bizarre.
Part of the justification for not massively overhauling the US healthcare system is that the incentive is taken away from RnD, and it’s not just Americans who benefit from products from this domain.
If nothing else the pandemic has shown these companies can deliver borderline miracles when the shackles are off.
As far as I’m aware the flip side of the removal of liability is the vaccines aren’t being sold at huge markups. If I’m incorrect on this feel free to correct.
You are left with a scenario between having vaccines, with pharma companies not having liability, or not having vaccines.
We still wouldn’t have a vaccine if the usual stringent certification process was in place, and liability was in place. It’s why more niche diseases don’t have much effort put in to developing products, takes too much time and money to guarantee safety vs the small return from small markets.
Is it an ideal state of affairs? No, but is it the least bad option? I’d say probably it is.
The rich are benefitting from the pandemic, well of course, the rich benefit from most things outside of mobs carrying guillotines.
There’s a not too subtle distinction between x benefitting from the pandemic, and x colluding with y to mutually benefit from the pandemic, a distinction I feel many don’t make.
Governments may see lockdowns and extra boosters as necessary, the former is terrible for many sectors of the economy. Pharmaceutical companies may benefit from these decisions, but I see little reason why governments would be making these decisions for the benefit of pharmaceutical companies.
‘Follow the money’ only works in relative isolation, if a shitload of other sectors and lobbying concerns are losing money I don’t think that maxim works
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On January 02 2022 22:22 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2022 14:37 JimmiC wrote:On January 01 2022 13:42 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On January 01 2022 00:37 WombaT wrote:
What’s the seemingly common obsession with Bill Gates in particular?
I’d rather not ‘research’ this much as I’m sure my brain would melt, but someone like a Mark Zuckerberg or a Jeff Bezos are active in running big tech giants and seem far more obvious candidates to attract the ire of the conspiratorially minded Like the guy or don't like the guy, you have to admit he has played a pretty huge part in the rollout of the vaccines.Surprised to see more on the left not attacking him more due to his obsession with maintaining IP rights for vaccines and medicines, drastically slowing the rollout in poorer countries..Follow the money. https://www.wired.com/story/opinion-the-world-loses-under-bill-gates-vaccine-colonialism/
Maintaining his steadfast commitment to intellectual property rights, Gates pushed for a plan that would permit companies to hold exclusive rights to lifesaving medicines, no matter how much they benefited from public funding. Given the enormous influence Gates has in the global public health world, his vision ultimately won out in the Covax program—which enshrines monopoly patent rights and relies on the charitable whims of rich countries and pharmaceutical giants to provide vaccines to most of the world. A chorus of support from pharmaceutical companies and the Trump administration didn’t hurt.
Hes a billionare attempting to maximise profits on something people need. You are supposed to love that and believe that some trickledown effect will help the rest of us. For somereason that is easier for many of you than the much more obvious conclusion, that there needs to be some rules to make things better and more eqiutible for everyone. So we agree that many of the worlds richest are benefitting from the pandemic financially.Great stuff. Governments mandating multiple injections per year in order for people to keep their jobs or do regular activities, whilst large corporations make tens of billions from these injections people are basically forced to take? Not free market, so not sure why i would 'love' it. I mean explain it to me, how a company like Pfizer can lose from this deal.They have no legal or financial liability from side effects and their product is mandated for use multiple times per year for the entire 12+ population of countries.Whats wrong with being concerned about that and the way things are going.You have to be a conspiracy theorist to be concerned about all this? The government mandates that we wear cloths outside (in most states) are you on a crusade against the clothing industry for shamelessly profiting off of this?
Yes companies profit from real world events, welcome to reality?
Look at cases surging across the world because of Omicron and somehow we should be confused why the government wants people to take booster shots? Did we suddenly forget what happened over the last 2 years when cases surge uncontrollably?
Yes it sucks that Covid exists, yes it sucks that its been going on for 2 years and will keep on going for god knows how long, yes it sucks to feel powerless in the face of a global pandemic that we seem unable to eradicate despite the knowledge of modern medicine. That's nature through simple back luck showing us she is still dangerous. Not a conspiracy by the rich to keep us all hooked on drugs while they line their pockets.
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I mean some construction companies must have benefited immensely from the collapse of the WTC; it remains that if you think that that’s the story with 9/11 you are absolutely insane.
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On January 02 2022 23:53 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2022 22:22 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On January 01 2022 14:37 JimmiC wrote:On January 01 2022 13:42 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On January 01 2022 00:37 WombaT wrote:
What’s the seemingly common obsession with Bill Gates in particular?
I’d rather not ‘research’ this much as I’m sure my brain would melt, but someone like a Mark Zuckerberg or a Jeff Bezos are active in running big tech giants and seem far more obvious candidates to attract the ire of the conspiratorially minded Like the guy or don't like the guy, you have to admit he has played a pretty huge part in the rollout of the vaccines.Surprised to see more on the left not attacking him more due to his obsession with maintaining IP rights for vaccines and medicines, drastically slowing the rollout in poorer countries..Follow the money. https://www.wired.com/story/opinion-the-world-loses-under-bill-gates-vaccine-colonialism/
Maintaining his steadfast commitment to intellectual property rights, Gates pushed for a plan that would permit companies to hold exclusive rights to lifesaving medicines, no matter how much they benefited from public funding. Given the enormous influence Gates has in the global public health world, his vision ultimately won out in the Covax program—which enshrines monopoly patent rights and relies on the charitable whims of rich countries and pharmaceutical giants to provide vaccines to most of the world. A chorus of support from pharmaceutical companies and the Trump administration didn’t hurt.
Hes a billionare attempting to maximise profits on something people need. You are supposed to love that and believe that some trickledown effect will help the rest of us. For somereason that is easier for many of you than the much more obvious conclusion, that there needs to be some rules to make things better and more eqiutible for everyone. So we agree that many of the worlds richest are benefitting from the pandemic financially.Great stuff. Governments mandating multiple injections per year in order for people to keep their jobs or do regular activities, whilst large corporations make tens of billions from these injections people are basically forced to take? Not free market, so not sure why i would 'love' it. I mean explain it to me, how a company like Pfizer can lose from this deal.They have no legal or financial liability from side effects and their product is mandated for use multiple times per year for the entire 12+ population of countries.Whats wrong with being concerned about that and the way things are going.You have to be a conspiracy theorist to be concerned about all this? The government mandates that we wear cloths outside (in most states) are you on a crusade against the clothing industry for shamelessly profiting off of this? Yes companies profit from real world events, welcome to reality? Look at cases surging across the world because of Omicron and somehow we should be confused why the government wants people to take booster shots? Did we suddenly forget what happened over the last 2 years when cases surge uncontrollably? Yes it sucks that Covid exists, yes it sucks that its been going on for 2 years and will keep on going for god knows how long, yes it sucks to feel powerless in the face of a global pandemic that we seem unable to eradicate despite the knowledge of modern medicine. That's nature through simple back luck showing us she is still dangerous. Not a conspiracy by the rich to keep us all hooked on drugs while they line their pockets.
What puzzles me the most with this paranoid vision of the pandemic is that it would imply that all governements in the whole world are all being manipulated in the same way by the same shadowy actors.
I mean, the rich folks and Pfizer must really be nailing it if the governments of countries as diverse as the US, China, Russia, Peru, Algeria, Indonesia, Iran, all buy simultaneously their lies and all decide to act against the interest of their citizens.
That really makes zero sense. If everybody around the planet does the exact same thing, mayyyyybe they have a good reason?
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On January 02 2022 16:07 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2022 13:28 Razyda wrote:On January 02 2022 02:26 JimmiC wrote:On January 02 2022 00:42 Razyda wrote:On December 31 2021 21:53 RKC wrote:
I don't know any anti-vaxxer personally. But it's not puzzling at all how their minds could potentially operate.
Perhaps they feel the virus is nothing exeptionally unusual and will eventually infect enough people for herd immunity to be reached (and vaccination hinders this natural process of evolution). Perhaps they accept that the virus is an anomaly but are prepared to accept this risk as being part of life and death.
The extreme ones believe in some tin-pot government conspiracy or cosmic forces at play. But most likely they are the minority amongst the entire anti-vax community.
I've heard of a story from a friend (purely hearsay) of a professional, intelligent and elderly person who died from COVID. Not vaccinated. Till the very end, on the hospital bed, the person remained in good spirits that he would overcome the virus. In denial until death. Sad.
Of course I share many of your frustration against these misguided folks. But I don't harbour any contempt for them, but more of pity. Maybe if we try to understand their mindset more, we can come up with a better governmental policy that could nudge them towards vaccination. And if we find out that their beliefs are really irrational, then governments can justify taking a harder stance against them (mandatory isolation, denial of health benefits, etc).
What that puzzles me more is why governments are on one hand pushing hard the message that "no one is safe until everyone is vaccinated" but on the other hand then stopped short of going harder against the unvaccinated. Maybe politics get in the way. But a middle-ground approach is bound to leave some skeptics unpersuaded.
In short, I'm not really surprised why some people remain as anti-vaxxers, and why governments find it difficult to convert them. While I dont think I am anti-vaxxer (I just dont care if others get vaccinated, or not, it is up to them) I didnt however get vaccinated and I am not planning to get vaccine. Before people jump on me: yes Covid exists, yes I put mask on when required and I do self isolate when needed. Thing with above is that they are just minor annoyances, which I can live with. Vaccines though: First of all - I knew Covid will wash over me, I was sick plenty as a kid and now I am reaping benefits of it, I dont even remember when last time I had viral infection with some serious symptoms. In case of Covid I like sneezed twice and felt a bit off for 1 day. Didnt even bother to take time off from work (I work from home btw). So it is pretty much "if is not broken, dont fix it" situation. The point at which I knew I wont get vaccinated was when it turned out that every Vaccine producer wanted legal immunity (I mean like seriously what the ..., law is cool concept, but it shouldnt apply to me??, how did anyone agreed to that, how is that even actually legal?). I am sorry, but if you manufactured something and want to inject me with it, you will take responsibility, or you can inject yourself. Then it is a case of: where apropriate insert "millions vaccinated later" You want get sick You want be contagious You want have heavy symptoms You want have to be hospitalized You want die You may die, but the risk is smaller If that doesnt prove that they didnt really knew what vaccine actually do, at the time when they started vaccinate people then I dont know what does. Nobody (unless they have time machine) knows what long term effects of vaccines are. Yes we also dont know what long term effects of Covid are, but vaccine doesnt prevent you from getting Covid, so basically if you get vaccine you changing 1 unknown for 2. When it comes to my health I'll rather stick with 1 unknown. As for me needing tinfoil hat - if believing that for large business, primary goal is to make money (look at Pfizzer profit) and everything else is secondary, makes me crazy, then yes I probably need one. Its odd to me that you "knew" many people knew and got really sick. And yes all the people tealling you to get vaccinated are injecting themselves, in fact most of those saying not to, or you shouldt have too are also injecting thrmselves. Its also odd to me that your bout with covid has changed since your post in march. I am pretty sure i had an actual coronavirus as early as 1 January and my wife 2 weeks later.
All the symptoms matched and while for me it was like really bad flu, my wife was 3 weeks barely able to move with doctors changing antibiotics and openly admitting they dont know what is happening. Your logic on future risk is really terrible. In very sinplistic terms the vaccines are much weaker to get you antibodis active to fight tge real thing, why would that be worse? In terms of actual information we have now the long term effects of covid are exponetially worse than the virus and those who had the vaccine and the virus are having way less. Given that your logic is flawed, and the scant bit of information you have provided here is incredibily inconsitent it is probably not wise to continue to rely on what you "know" and better to trust in the experts with way more, better data and have much better and unbiased ways of making determinations. Yes pfizer is making profits, but goverments are also doing calculations and guess what vaccinating your populace is WAY cheaper than dealing with those who get really sick and need hospital care and its not close. Think of how dumb we would think an engineer was to not put oil in 100 machines each month (for 2 bucks) if we knew that kept them from blowing up but if he does not 2 will blow up a year (each costing 500,000). No one would be like why are you wasting that oil on 98 machines that do not need it you are just funding that oil producer. The fact that something is odd to you quite frankly means nothing. The fact that earth circulate sun not the other way around seemed odd for many too. Simple fact is I knew I wont have problem with Covid and I didnt. However odd you find it, is honestly your problem. Like mentioned I dont care if people get Vaccinated or not - I judge arguments based on merit of argument rather than on the person providing argument. If you read what I wrote rather than getting in religious zeal you would have noticed, that my main issue with vaccines comes from statements of manufacturers. Good job digging my 2 year old post, not really sure what it has to do with Vaccines, as at the time of writing it, there was no vaccines whatsoever. Nothing I wrote then doesnt contradict what I wrote now (note that my Covid I referred to now, occurred this October) was. Even if it did - it is generally sign of healthy mind to change your opinion when new factors appear, rather than stick with old one despite them. You saying that my logic is terrible, or flawed doesnt actually make it so. It is not even logic it is simple math. Trying to solve equation with one unavoidable variable with unknown range, makes you scientist, adding voluntarily and unnecessarily another variable with unknown range makes you crazy person for even trying. And as of now both - long term Covid and Vaccine effects are unknown variables. For all you know long term effect of vaccine may stop ageing, make people sh..t gold, or make aliens popping of their chests (all examples exaggerated in case you didnt got it). Thats in very "sinplistic terms" as you say it. Yes goverment is doing calculations ( I am living in UK now, so it seems it is doing them partying during lockdowns), but your example of them is flawed. It should look like this: we have 100 machines and need 100 engineers to keep them going just fine, but we may use random new oil and have only 25 engineers, risking that 2 machines will blow up. which is correct approach - it only sucks if you one of the 2 machines which blow up... It is also quite amusing that while trying to discredit me and my opinion you didnt address any of the points I made against vaccinating. On January 02 2022 05:51 Amui wrote:
I'm on the forced vaccination train because frankly I'm tired of my tax dollars being wasted on the unvaccinated. I am with you mate, I am tired of my taxes going for people getting vaccinated and then paying for their hospital bills anyway. With unvaccinated at least I didnt waste x times 20 dollars where x equal 2 + random number of boosters. While at it lets also start mass executions as I dont see why my taxes should be wasted on prison service. Any more wise suggestions? On January 02 2022 06:19 JimmiC wrote:
I'm not on the forced vaccination train but I'm getting closer based on every conversation with a person against vaccination not making any sense. What I would like to see is that the unvaccinated have to pay for any future hospital costs that they may incur due to covid. It is an opt out, if you opt out of the vaccine you opt out of paid for care. I would even be happy to give them a 50 dollar credit for the saving they had for not taking the vaccine. I would also make it that if they couldn't pay and there were not beds available they would have to wait at home, you would not delay any surgeries or procedures for anyone for people who choose to not get vaccinated. Totally with you on that one, some things I would add though - give me back all of my NI money I paid, also add to this everyone using fast foods, smokers, drinkers, people not exercising, people not spending enough time on fresh air. Now clearly because smokers and drinkers aren't burden to anyone anymore remove tax from alcohol and tobacco. On January 02 2022 05:12 maybenexttime wrote:
Razyda, where are you from? Poland, but currently living in UK. Guessing and being right on your guess does not change your guess to being known. This is how gamblers go broke. Actually we know covid or the vaccine wont do any of that because life is real, not a comic book and there is a limited number of outcomes. With science and data we can also successfully predict what outcomes are most likely. Unlike yours based on assumptions and irrational fear. Your analogy is terrible because we have the worlds best working on it and at this point very few things have been given to this number of people. How is new medicine ever going to be given out if you have to test and wait what 50 years to make sure no comic book likely outcome happens? And whatever point you are trying to make you missed it, those people you are describing are paricipating in the rules of society so they get to have their risks covered if it goes bad as well all do. You however want all the benifits of society, to do whatever you want personally regardless of its effects on others and the system, but take none of the consequences personally. It is the definition of entitlement. There was no points to discuss just unfounded assuptions and child like game of nearly or completely impossible "what ifs?". In plain language using actual existing information clearly state what is wrong or dangerous with vaccines, site it, and I will directly respond.
Difference between guessing and predicting is that the latter only refers to the future, so let me quote you twice:
"With science and data we can also successfully predict what outcomes are most likely"
"This is how gamblers go broke."
Point I am making stands. People whether vaccinated, or not still participate in the rules of society, they still paying taxes, insurance, obey the law etc. At this moment it is only fear speaking through you. You are affraid of Covid and are willing to make villains of people not taking vaccine, despite reasons. Looking for someone to blame is common reaction to fear. It is actually you who expects other to behave as you want, not me. To quote you again:
"It is the definition of entitlement."
You saying childlike game and most of your post refer to examples I specifically stated are exaggerated.
You say:
"There was no points to discuss" issue is you not trying to discuss anything - you preaching.
You say:
"In plain language using actual existing information clearly state what is wrong or dangerous with vaccines"
and yet through multiple posts you failed to refer to the 3 I presented in my first post, focusing on everything else instead.
I will quote them for you:
The point at which I knew I wont get vaccinated was when it turned out that every Vaccine producer wanted legal immunity (I mean like seriously what the ..., law is cool concept, but it shouldnt apply to me??, how did anyone agreed to that, how is that even actually legal?). I am sorry, but if you manufactured something and want to inject me with it, you will take responsibility, or you can inject yourself.
Then it is a case of:
where apropriate insert "millions vaccinated later"
You want get sick
You want be contagious
You want have heavy symptoms
You want have to be hospitalized
You want die
You may die, but the risk is smaller
If that doesnt prove that they didnt really knew what vaccine actually do, at the time when they started vaccinate people then I dont know what does.
Nobody (unless they have time machine) knows what long term effects of vaccines are.
Have a go.
On January 02 2022 22:00 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2022 05:12 maybenexttime wrote:
Razyda, where are you from? Poland, but currently living in UK. Well, then you should know that indemnity for the vaccine manufacturers was never granted in Poland. As far as I know, in most of the EU, as well as in the UK it didn't extend outside the emergency authorisation. The vaccines have now been given full authorisation. As for your worries about the long-term side effects of the vaccine, how do you suppose that would work, considering that the vaccine disappears from your body within weeks after the injection? You're very selfish by the way. Do you also drink and drive because "you're a good driver" and are also far less likely to die in an accident than a random pedestrian you hit with your car?
Your last sentence almost made me ignore your post, but I will give you benefit of doubt.
Article you linked to actually confirms what I said. Admittedly I used incorrect phrase. I should have said:
"Legal immunity from side effects of vaccine"
In short according to article:
- vaccine caused some side effects due to botched production process/ transport etc - manufacturer is responsible.
- vaccine caused some side effects and you are able to proof that manufacturer had data about it, but didnt disclose them - manufactures is responsible
- vaccine caused some side effects, but it was not from botched batch, you are unable to proof that manufacturer had any data about it - manufacturer couldnt care less.
Second paragraph - Fact that something disappear from your body doesnt mean it doesnt have long lasting effects on it - similar as it is with tobacco, alcohol, drugs and everything else really.
And yes I am selfish, we all are, if people werent selfish they wouldnt try to impose vaccine on others, despite their opinion. Lets say I'll get vaccinated and end up on wrong side of the statistics, are people, whose live I saved by vaccinating myself, going provide for my family? No. Well then...
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Northern Ireland25419 Posts
Your posts are meandering more and more and I don’t believe I’m alone in not understanding what your central positions are.
Gambling with Covid risks based on your age profile and (I assume) general good health isn’t a huge risk, vaccination is on the other hand less risk than that.
This risk assessment seems completely wonky.
Then we get into reducto ad absurdum territory where you’re saying if anyone really cared about public health we’d outlaw fat people.
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EPT
