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Any and all updates regarding the COVID-19 will need a source provided. Please do your part in helping us to keep this thread maintainable and under control.
It is YOUR responsibility to fully read through the sources that you link, and you MUST provide a brief summary explaining what the source is about. Do not expect other people to do the work for you.
Conspiracy theories and fear mongering will absolutely not be tolerated in this thread. Expect harsh mod actions if you try to incite fear needlessly.
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Added a disclaimer on page 662. Many need to post better. |
On January 03 2022 01:47 Razyda wrote:Your last sentence almost made me ignore your post, but I will give you benefit of doubt.
Why? This is exactly how you behave. As a matter of fact, you are more likely to kill someone by contracting the coronavirus and spreading it to others than by drink driving. About 700 people die in the UK in car accidents caused by drunk drivers annually. There are approximately 100,000 convictions for drunk driving and it is estimated that the number accounts for about 1-10% of all such incidents. That gives a 0.007-0.07% chance of killing someone, on average. For Omicron, the Rt and IFR in the British population are currently around 4 and 0.1% respectively, thanks to the vaccines. On average, an infected person has a chance of (1-0.999^4)*100 = 0.4% that they will end up killing someone. Bare in mind that presymptomatic transmission accounts for about half of all transmission. By getting vaccinated, you reduce that risk drastically.
Article you linked to actually confirms what I said. Admittedly I used incorrect phrase. I should have said:
"Legal immunity from side effects of vaccine"
In short according to article:
- vaccine caused some side effects due to botched production process/ transport etc - manufacturer is responsible.
- vaccine caused some side effects and you are able to proof that manufacturer had data about it, but didnt disclose them - manufactures is responsible
- vaccine caused some side effects, but it was not from botched batch, you are unable to proof that manufacturer had any data about it - manufacturer couldnt care less.
Where is the article does it say that?
Second paragraph - Fact that something disappear from your body doesnt mean it doesnt have long lasting effects on it - similar as it is with tobacco, alcohol, drugs and everything else really.
The vaccine would have to do something while it's still in your body that would some knock-on effects. No such side effects have been reported thus far...
And yes I am selfish, we all are, if people werent selfish they wouldnt try to impose vaccine on others, despite their opinion. Lets say I'll get vaccinated and end up on wrong side of the statistics, are people, whose live I saved by vaccinating myself, going provide for my family? No. Well then...
Imposing vaccines on others benefits the whole society. That's hardly selfish.
In the UK the state takes the responsibility for any negative consequences from the vaccination program. In Poland, both the state and the manufacturer. By paying taxes, the people you may have saved will indirectly provide for you. Not to mention the fact that you are far more likely to suffer negative consequences from COVID than you are from the vaccine. By orders of magnitude. Your risk assessment is beyond terrible...
You are also far more likely to harm others by not getting vaccinated and spreading the disease. How are you going to compensate the victims of your selfishness?
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I'm having occasional discussions about the covid vaccine with other people online, and sometimes I'll see the general questions "Why doesn't the covid vaccine work forever" and/or "Why do we need booster shots for covid, especially so soon". I've been spending some time reading explanations from medical authorities on why this is the case, so that I can try to really understand the answer before I relay it to others. I want to make sure my summary is as accurate as possible, so I was hoping someone could read my explanation and correct/clarify the things that I have wrong/incomplete, since I have absolutely no background in virology or immunology. Thanks in advance 
This is my summary:
> In general, a vaccine (1) teaches the body to produce antibodies and recognize viruses, so that a person is equipped to prevent specific viruses from entering in the future, and the vaccine (2) also temporarily strengthens our immune cells. Therefore, vaccines provide both a long-term advantage (1) and a short-term advantage (2).
>> The short-term advantage of the temporary increased strength doesn't last forever, but that's usually not an issue as long as the virus doesn't significantly mutate, since the long-term advantage means that the body will remember the virus and recreate antibodies when needed (even years later) to make sure we're okay.
>>> However, covid-19 seems to be mutating incredibly quickly (new strains every few months), and these variants are apparently different enough from the original covid strains that the long-term advantage isn't as effective, since the body is less likely to recognize these somewhat-different versions of the virus. Basically, delta and omicron are wearing trench coats and fake mustaches, and tricking the guards into letting them pass into the body.
>>>> The reason why the booster helps is because it reactivates the short-term advantage, by generally re-strengthening the immune cells, so that even if a person gets infected because the body didn't recognize/prevent the infection *proactively*, the body is still better equipped to fight the virus *reactively*. That's why the infection rate is no longer really lowered by the vaccine (the long-term advantage isn't as effective), but the short-term advantage is still significantly lowering the chance of serious side-effects or death.
That's my current understanding of why we need covid boosters, so please feel free to further educate me on it
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That’s not far from my understanding FWIW (obviously I’m not an immunologist either). The first shot teaches your body what antibodies to produce, and subsequent shots trigger those systems to tell it to keep neutralizing antibodies in the bloodstream.
It’s more complicated, though, partly because subsequent shots also teach it a few more antibodies to produce (i.e. the long-term protection is better from subsequent shots, even after their short-term boost has worn off). That is to say, your immunity after the booster isn’t just back to previous highs, it’s the highest it’s ever been. You’ll recall the initial mRNA vaccines were always planned as a 2-shot regimen ~1 month apart; my understanding is that was basically a guess, based on prior research with other mRNA vaccines suggesting a multiple dose regimen was more effective. We didn’t actually *know* the second shot was necessary, or how protective a single dose would be; Pfizer and Moderna just took their best guess at what regimen would be most effective, and went to the clinic to see if that worked.
But in immunology “actually it’s more complicated” is basically always true, I think you’ve got the gist at least as well as I do.
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On January 03 2022 04:47 ChristianS wrote:
That’s not far from my understanding FWIW (obviously I’m not an immunologist either). The first shot teaches your body what antibodies to produce, and subsequent shots trigger those systems to tell it to keep neutralizing antibodies in the bloodstream.
It’s more complicated, though, partly because subsequent shots also teach it a few more antibodies to produce (i.e. the long-term protection is better from subsequent shots, even after their short-term boost has worn off). That is to say, your immunity after the booster isn’t just back to previous highs, it’s the highest it’s ever been. You’ll recall the initial mRNA vaccines were always planned as a 2-shot regimen ~1 month apart; my understanding is that was basically a guess, based on prior research with other mRNA vaccines suggesting a multiple dose regimen was more effective. We didn’t actually *know* the second shot was necessary, or how protective a single dose would be; Pfizer and Moderna just took their best guess at what regimen would be most effective, and went to the clinic to see if that worked.
But in immunology “actually it’s more complicated” is basically always true, I think you’ve got the gist at least as well as I do.
Great, thank you!
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On January 03 2022 07:40 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2022 01:47 Razyda wrote:On January 02 2022 16:07 JimmiC wrote:On January 02 2022 13:28 Razyda wrote:On January 02 2022 02:26 JimmiC wrote:On January 02 2022 00:42 Razyda wrote:On December 31 2021 21:53 RKC wrote:
I don't know any anti-vaxxer personally. But it's not puzzling at all how their minds could potentially operate.
Perhaps they feel the virus is nothing exeptionally unusual and will eventually infect enough people for herd immunity to be reached (and vaccination hinders this natural process of evolution). Perhaps they accept that the virus is an anomaly but are prepared to accept this risk as being part of life and death.
The extreme ones believe in some tin-pot government conspiracy or cosmic forces at play. But most likely they are the minority amongst the entire anti-vax community.
I've heard of a story from a friend (purely hearsay) of a professional, intelligent and elderly person who died from COVID. Not vaccinated. Till the very end, on the hospital bed, the person remained in good spirits that he would overcome the virus. In denial until death. Sad.
Of course I share many of your frustration against these misguided folks. But I don't harbour any contempt for them, but more of pity. Maybe if we try to understand their mindset more, we can come up with a better governmental policy that could nudge them towards vaccination. And if we find out that their beliefs are really irrational, then governments can justify taking a harder stance against them (mandatory isolation, denial of health benefits, etc).
What that puzzles me more is why governments are on one hand pushing hard the message that "no one is safe until everyone is vaccinated" but on the other hand then stopped short of going harder against the unvaccinated. Maybe politics get in the way. But a middle-ground approach is bound to leave some skeptics unpersuaded.
In short, I'm not really surprised why some people remain as anti-vaxxers, and why governments find it difficult to convert them. While I dont think I am anti-vaxxer (I just dont care if others get vaccinated, or not, it is up to them) I didnt however get vaccinated and I am not planning to get vaccine. Before people jump on me: yes Covid exists, yes I put mask on when required and I do self isolate when needed. Thing with above is that they are just minor annoyances, which I can live with. Vaccines though: First of all - I knew Covid will wash over me, I was sick plenty as a kid and now I am reaping benefits of it, I dont even remember when last time I had viral infection with some serious symptoms. In case of Covid I like sneezed twice and felt a bit off for 1 day. Didnt even bother to take time off from work (I work from home btw). So it is pretty much "if is not broken, dont fix it" situation. The point at which I knew I wont get vaccinated was when it turned out that every Vaccine producer wanted legal immunity (I mean like seriously what the ..., law is cool concept, but it shouldnt apply to me??, how did anyone agreed to that, how is that even actually legal?). I am sorry, but if you manufactured something and want to inject me with it, you will take responsibility, or you can inject yourself. Then it is a case of: where apropriate insert "millions vaccinated later" You want get sick You want be contagious You want have heavy symptoms You want have to be hospitalized You want die You may die, but the risk is smaller If that doesnt prove that they didnt really knew what vaccine actually do, at the time when they started vaccinate people then I dont know what does. Nobody (unless they have time machine) knows what long term effects of vaccines are. Yes we also dont know what long term effects of Covid are, but vaccine doesnt prevent you from getting Covid, so basically if you get vaccine you changing 1 unknown for 2. When it comes to my health I'll rather stick with 1 unknown. As for me needing tinfoil hat - if believing that for large business, primary goal is to make money (look at Pfizzer profit) and everything else is secondary, makes me crazy, then yes I probably need one. Its odd to me that you "knew" many people knew and got really sick. And yes all the people tealling you to get vaccinated are injecting themselves, in fact most of those saying not to, or you shouldt have too are also injecting thrmselves. Its also odd to me that your bout with covid has changed since your post in march. I am pretty sure i had an actual coronavirus as early as 1 January and my wife 2 weeks later.
All the symptoms matched and while for me it was like really bad flu, my wife was 3 weeks barely able to move with doctors changing antibiotics and openly admitting they dont know what is happening. Your logic on future risk is really terrible. In very sinplistic terms the vaccines are much weaker to get you antibodis active to fight tge real thing, why would that be worse? In terms of actual information we have now the long term effects of covid are exponetially worse than the virus and those who had the vaccine and the virus are having way less. Given that your logic is flawed, and the scant bit of information you have provided here is incredibily inconsitent it is probably not wise to continue to rely on what you "know" and better to trust in the experts with way more, better data and have much better and unbiased ways of making determinations. Yes pfizer is making profits, but goverments are also doing calculations and guess what vaccinating your populace is WAY cheaper than dealing with those who get really sick and need hospital care and its not close. Think of how dumb we would think an engineer was to not put oil in 100 machines each month (for 2 bucks) if we knew that kept them from blowing up but if he does not 2 will blow up a year (each costing 500,000). No one would be like why are you wasting that oil on 98 machines that do not need it you are just funding that oil producer. The fact that something is odd to you quite frankly means nothing. The fact that earth circulate sun not the other way around seemed odd for many too. Simple fact is I knew I wont have problem with Covid and I didnt. However odd you find it, is honestly your problem. Like mentioned I dont care if people get Vaccinated or not - I judge arguments based on merit of argument rather than on the person providing argument. If you read what I wrote rather than getting in religious zeal you would have noticed, that my main issue with vaccines comes from statements of manufacturers. Good job digging my 2 year old post, not really sure what it has to do with Vaccines, as at the time of writing it, there was no vaccines whatsoever. Nothing I wrote then doesnt contradict what I wrote now (note that my Covid I referred to now, occurred this October) was. Even if it did - it is generally sign of healthy mind to change your opinion when new factors appear, rather than stick with old one despite them. You saying that my logic is terrible, or flawed doesnt actually make it so. It is not even logic it is simple math. Trying to solve equation with one unavoidable variable with unknown range, makes you scientist, adding voluntarily and unnecessarily another variable with unknown range makes you crazy person for even trying. And as of now both - long term Covid and Vaccine effects are unknown variables. For all you know long term effect of vaccine may stop ageing, make people sh..t gold, or make aliens popping of their chests (all examples exaggerated in case you didnt got it). Thats in very "sinplistic terms" as you say it. Yes goverment is doing calculations ( I am living in UK now, so it seems it is doing them partying during lockdowns), but your example of them is flawed. It should look like this: we have 100 machines and need 100 engineers to keep them going just fine, but we may use random new oil and have only 25 engineers, risking that 2 machines will blow up. which is correct approach - it only sucks if you one of the 2 machines which blow up... It is also quite amusing that while trying to discredit me and my opinion you didnt address any of the points I made against vaccinating. On January 02 2022 05:51 Amui wrote:
I'm on the forced vaccination train because frankly I'm tired of my tax dollars being wasted on the unvaccinated. I am with you mate, I am tired of my taxes going for people getting vaccinated and then paying for their hospital bills anyway. With unvaccinated at least I didnt waste x times 20 dollars where x equal 2 + random number of boosters. While at it lets also start mass executions as I dont see why my taxes should be wasted on prison service. Any more wise suggestions? On January 02 2022 06:19 JimmiC wrote:
I'm not on the forced vaccination train but I'm getting closer based on every conversation with a person against vaccination not making any sense. What I would like to see is that the unvaccinated have to pay for any future hospital costs that they may incur due to covid. It is an opt out, if you opt out of the vaccine you opt out of paid for care. I would even be happy to give them a 50 dollar credit for the saving they had for not taking the vaccine. I would also make it that if they couldn't pay and there were not beds available they would have to wait at home, you would not delay any surgeries or procedures for anyone for people who choose to not get vaccinated. Totally with you on that one, some things I would add though - give me back all of my NI money I paid, also add to this everyone using fast foods, smokers, drinkers, people not exercising, people not spending enough time on fresh air. Now clearly because smokers and drinkers aren't burden to anyone anymore remove tax from alcohol and tobacco. On January 02 2022 05:12 maybenexttime wrote:
Razyda, where are you from? Poland, but currently living in UK. Guessing and being right on your guess does not change your guess to being known. This is how gamblers go broke. Actually we know covid or the vaccine wont do any of that because life is real, not a comic book and there is a limited number of outcomes. With science and data we can also successfully predict what outcomes are most likely. Unlike yours based on assumptions and irrational fear. Your analogy is terrible because we have the worlds best working on it and at this point very few things have been given to this number of people. How is new medicine ever going to be given out if you have to test and wait what 50 years to make sure no comic book likely outcome happens? And whatever point you are trying to make you missed it, those people you are describing are paricipating in the rules of society so they get to have their risks covered if it goes bad as well all do. You however want all the benifits of society, to do whatever you want personally regardless of its effects on others and the system, but take none of the consequences personally. It is the definition of entitlement. There was no points to discuss just unfounded assuptions and child like game of nearly or completely impossible "what ifs?". In plain language using actual existing information clearly state what is wrong or dangerous with vaccines, site it, and I will directly respond. Difference between guessing and predicting is that the latter only refers to the future, so let me quote you twice: "With science and data we can also successfully predict what outcomes are most likely" "This is how gamblers go broke." Point I am making stands. People whether vaccinated, or not still participate in the rules of society, they still paying taxes, insurance, obey the law etc. At this moment it is only fear speaking through you. You are affraid of Covid and are willing to make villains of people not taking vaccine, despite reasons. Looking for someone to blame is common reaction to fear. It is actually you who expects other to behave as you want, not me. To quote you again: "It is the definition of entitlement." You saying childlike game and most of your post refer to examples I specifically stated are exaggerated. You say: "There was no points to discuss" issue is you not trying to discuss anything - you preaching. You say: "In plain language using actual existing information clearly state what is wrong or dangerous with vaccines" and yet through multiple posts you failed to refer to the 3 I presented in my first post, focusing on everything else instead. I will quote them for you:
The point at which I knew I wont get vaccinated was when it turned out that every Vaccine producer wanted legal immunity (I mean like seriously what the ..., law is cool concept, but it shouldnt apply to me??, how did anyone agreed to that, how is that even actually legal?). I am sorry, but if you manufactured something and want to inject me with it, you will take responsibility, or you can inject yourself.
Then it is a case of:
where apropriate insert "millions vaccinated later"
You want get sick
You want be contagious
You want have heavy symptoms
You want have to be hospitalized
You want die
You may die, but the risk is smaller
If that doesnt prove that they didnt really knew what vaccine actually do, at the time when they started vaccinate people then I dont know what does.
Nobody (unless they have time machine) knows what long term effects of vaccines are.
Have a go. On January 02 2022 22:00 maybenexttime wrote:On January 02 2022 05:12 maybenexttime wrote:
Razyda, where are you from? Poland, but currently living in UK. Well, then you should know that indemnity for the vaccine manufacturers was never granted in Poland. As far as I know, in most of the EU, as well as in the UK it didn't extend outside the emergency authorisation. The vaccines have now been given full authorisation. As for your worries about the long-term side effects of the vaccine, how do you suppose that would work, considering that the vaccine disappears from your body within weeks after the injection? You're very selfish by the way. Do you also drink and drive because "you're a good driver" and are also far less likely to die in an accident than a random pedestrian you hit with your car? Your last sentence almost made me ignore your post, but I will give you benefit of doubt. Article you linked to actually confirms what I said. Admittedly I used incorrect phrase. I should have said: "Legal immunity from side effects of vaccine" In short according to article: - vaccine caused some side effects due to botched production process/ transport etc - manufacturer is responsible. - vaccine caused some side effects and you are able to proof that manufacturer had data about it, but didnt disclose them - manufactures is responsible - vaccine caused some side effects, but it was not from botched batch, you are unable to proof that manufacturer had any data about it - manufacturer couldnt care less. Second paragraph - Fact that something disappear from your body doesnt mean it doesnt have long lasting effects on it - similar as it is with tobacco, alcohol, drugs and everything else really. And yes I am selfish, we all are, if people werent selfish they wouldnt try to impose vaccine on others, despite their opinion. Lets say I'll get vaccinated and end up on wrong side of the statistics, are people, whose live I saved by vaccinating myself, going provide for my family? No. Well then... I can't have a go that is not a position it is incoherent rambling followed by nonsensical what ifs. If you do not understand the difference between data driven decision making and gut feels you are just out of luck mate. Your position is no different then those that blame 5g, no one knows the long term effects unless they have a time machine....
Yes you cant have a go because those are simple facts.
I am glad we agreed on 2 things though:
1 - No one know long term effects.
2 - fact that description of what vaccine does is changing every few hundred millions vaccinations is indeed incoherent rambling. Only thing is this is not my incoherent rambling.
On January 03 2022 03:11 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2022 01:47 Razyda wrote:Your last sentence almost made me ignore your post, but I will give you benefit of doubt. Why? This is exactly how you behave. As a matter of fact, you are more likely to kill someone by contracting the coronavirus and spreading it to others than by drink driving. About 700 people die in the UK in car accidents caused by drunk drivers annually. There are approximately 100,000 convictions for drunk driving and it is estimated that the number accounts for about 1-10% of all such incidents. That gives a 0.007-0.07% chance of killing someone, on average. For Omicron, the Rt and IFR in the British population are currently around 4 and 0.1% respectively, thanks to the vaccines. On average, an infected person has a chance of (1-0.999^4)*100 = 0.4% that they will end up killing someone. Bare in mind that presymptomatic transmission accounts for about half of all transmission. By getting vaccinated, you reduce that risk drastically. Show nested quote +Article you linked to actually confirms what I said. Admittedly I used incorrect phrase. I should have said:
"Legal immunity from side effects of vaccine"
In short according to article:
- vaccine caused some side effects due to botched production process/ transport etc - manufacturer is responsible.
- vaccine caused some side effects and you are able to proof that manufacturer had data about it, but didnt disclose them - manufactures is responsible
- vaccine caused some side effects, but it was not from botched batch, you are unable to proof that manufacturer had any data about it - manufacturer couldnt care less. Where is the article does it say that? [ It list all the legal responsibilities of the manufacturer - there is nothing about legal lability for side effects of vaccine. ]Show nested quote +Second paragraph - Fact that something disappear from your body doesnt mean it doesnt have long lasting effects on it - similar as it is with tobacco, alcohol, drugs and everything else really. The vaccine would have to do something while it's still in your body that would some knock-on effects. No such side effects have been reported thus far... [thus far...Meanwhile in Australia: ]https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-11-16/australia-faces-compensation-bill-for-vaccine-side-effects-smh[ Australia population is 25.69 million to round it up 80% is vaccinated that equals 20552000. 79000 is 0.38439081354613% of it. More than 1 in 300 people suffers side effects. There are meth dealers with better rates]Show nested quote +And yes I am selfish, we all are, if people werent selfish they wouldnt try to impose vaccine on others, despite their opinion. Lets say I'll get vaccinated and end up on wrong side of the statistics, are people, whose live I saved by vaccinating myself, going provide for my family? No. Well then... Imposing vaccines on others benefits the whole society. That's hardly selfish. In the UK the state takes the responsibility for any negative consequences from the vaccination program. In Poland, both the state and the manufacturer. By paying taxes, the people you may have saved will indirectly provide for you. Not to mention the fact that you are far more likely to suffer negative consequences from COVID than you are from the vaccine. [you literally cant know that, thats just your wishful thinking ] By orders of magnitude. Your risk assessment is beyond terrible... You are also far more likely to harm others by not getting vaccinated and spreading the disease. How are you going to compensate the victims of your selfishness? [ I am not - if they think they at risk from Covid they should get vaccinated, wear masks, social distancing, self isolate I am not bothered by Covid and do all those, side vaccinating, all the while seeing people from increased risk group actually not doing any of that, side maybe vaccinating... ]
Poland:
https://www.prawo.pl/zdrowie/odszkodowania-za-powiklania-po-szczepieniach-w-tym-przeciw-covid,511999.html
I dont think taking responsibility means the same thing for us:
you can get compensated only if:
you spend 14 days in hospital, or get Anaphylactic shock. Only if side effects are mentioned in description of Vaccine (what if they aren't???? ). Wait it gets better: "Act doesn't recognize that patient can die as a result of vaccination" - thats just pure comedy.
UK:
https://brodies.com/insights/health-and-safety/covid-19-vaccines-and-civil-liability/
You are entitled to one of payment of 120k from little known fund - considering years I have till pension and family of four, they must be joking right? Sadly they dont.
On January 02 2022 06:33 WombaT wrote:
Ultimately do I think people should be forced, no not really. But their decision is, almost invariably nonsensical and outside of very niche, understandable cases I don’t respect that decision at all.
That’s all, not going to advocate for compulsory vaccination, or particularly argue with those who don’t want the vaccine, I think it’s a stupid position and I’m not especially interested in regurgitating the same arguments in perpetuity.
Thank you for this post, I am actually really grateful, you restored my faith in people. I also respect your attitude even though we have totally different point of view.
Now lads and lassies I am leaving this thread as it is pretty clear by now, that you dont want discuss anything. I initially posted only to present my somewhat different here point of view, not trying to convince anyone to anything, except maybe to be a bit more critical to what you hear.
Cheers, good luck and best wishes everyone.
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Northern Ireland25419 Posts
On January 03 2022 09:48 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2022 09:27 Razyda wrote:On January 03 2022 07:40 JimmiC wrote:On January 03 2022 01:47 Razyda wrote:On January 02 2022 16:07 JimmiC wrote:On January 02 2022 13:28 Razyda wrote:On January 02 2022 02:26 JimmiC wrote:On January 02 2022 00:42 Razyda wrote:On December 31 2021 21:53 RKC wrote:
I don't know any anti-vaxxer personally. But it's not puzzling at all how their minds could potentially operate.
Perhaps they feel the virus is nothing exeptionally unusual and will eventually infect enough people for herd immunity to be reached (and vaccination hinders this natural process of evolution). Perhaps they accept that the virus is an anomaly but are prepared to accept this risk as being part of life and death.
The extreme ones believe in some tin-pot government conspiracy or cosmic forces at play. But most likely they are the minority amongst the entire anti-vax community.
I've heard of a story from a friend (purely hearsay) of a professional, intelligent and elderly person who died from COVID. Not vaccinated. Till the very end, on the hospital bed, the person remained in good spirits that he would overcome the virus. In denial until death. Sad.
Of course I share many of your frustration against these misguided folks. But I don't harbour any contempt for them, but more of pity. Maybe if we try to understand their mindset more, we can come up with a better governmental policy that could nudge them towards vaccination. And if we find out that their beliefs are really irrational, then governments can justify taking a harder stance against them (mandatory isolation, denial of health benefits, etc).
What that puzzles me more is why governments are on one hand pushing hard the message that "no one is safe until everyone is vaccinated" but on the other hand then stopped short of going harder against the unvaccinated. Maybe politics get in the way. But a middle-ground approach is bound to leave some skeptics unpersuaded.
In short, I'm not really surprised why some people remain as anti-vaxxers, and why governments find it difficult to convert them. While I dont think I am anti-vaxxer (I just dont care if others get vaccinated, or not, it is up to them) I didnt however get vaccinated and I am not planning to get vaccine. Before people jump on me: yes Covid exists, yes I put mask on when required and I do self isolate when needed. Thing with above is that they are just minor annoyances, which I can live with. Vaccines though: First of all - I knew Covid will wash over me, I was sick plenty as a kid and now I am reaping benefits of it, I dont even remember when last time I had viral infection with some serious symptoms. In case of Covid I like sneezed twice and felt a bit off for 1 day. Didnt even bother to take time off from work (I work from home btw). So it is pretty much "if is not broken, dont fix it" situation. The point at which I knew I wont get vaccinated was when it turned out that every Vaccine producer wanted legal immunity (I mean like seriously what the ..., law is cool concept, but it shouldnt apply to me??, how did anyone agreed to that, how is that even actually legal?). I am sorry, but if you manufactured something and want to inject me with it, you will take responsibility, or you can inject yourself. Then it is a case of: where apropriate insert "millions vaccinated later" You want get sick You want be contagious You want have heavy symptoms You want have to be hospitalized You want die You may die, but the risk is smaller If that doesnt prove that they didnt really knew what vaccine actually do, at the time when they started vaccinate people then I dont know what does. Nobody (unless they have time machine) knows what long term effects of vaccines are. Yes we also dont know what long term effects of Covid are, but vaccine doesnt prevent you from getting Covid, so basically if you get vaccine you changing 1 unknown for 2. When it comes to my health I'll rather stick with 1 unknown. As for me needing tinfoil hat - if believing that for large business, primary goal is to make money (look at Pfizzer profit) and everything else is secondary, makes me crazy, then yes I probably need one. Its odd to me that you "knew" many people knew and got really sick. And yes all the people tealling you to get vaccinated are injecting themselves, in fact most of those saying not to, or you shouldt have too are also injecting thrmselves. Its also odd to me that your bout with covid has changed since your post in march. I am pretty sure i had an actual coronavirus as early as 1 January and my wife 2 weeks later.
All the symptoms matched and while for me it was like really bad flu, my wife was 3 weeks barely able to move with doctors changing antibiotics and openly admitting they dont know what is happening. Your logic on future risk is really terrible. In very sinplistic terms the vaccines are much weaker to get you antibodis active to fight tge real thing, why would that be worse? In terms of actual information we have now the long term effects of covid are exponetially worse than the virus and those who had the vaccine and the virus are having way less. Given that your logic is flawed, and the scant bit of information you have provided here is incredibily inconsitent it is probably not wise to continue to rely on what you "know" and better to trust in the experts with way more, better data and have much better and unbiased ways of making determinations. Yes pfizer is making profits, but goverments are also doing calculations and guess what vaccinating your populace is WAY cheaper than dealing with those who get really sick and need hospital care and its not close. Think of how dumb we would think an engineer was to not put oil in 100 machines each month (for 2 bucks) if we knew that kept them from blowing up but if he does not 2 will blow up a year (each costing 500,000). No one would be like why are you wasting that oil on 98 machines that do not need it you are just funding that oil producer. The fact that something is odd to you quite frankly means nothing. The fact that earth circulate sun not the other way around seemed odd for many too. Simple fact is I knew I wont have problem with Covid and I didnt. However odd you find it, is honestly your problem. Like mentioned I dont care if people get Vaccinated or not - I judge arguments based on merit of argument rather than on the person providing argument. If you read what I wrote rather than getting in religious zeal you would have noticed, that my main issue with vaccines comes from statements of manufacturers. Good job digging my 2 year old post, not really sure what it has to do with Vaccines, as at the time of writing it, there was no vaccines whatsoever. Nothing I wrote then doesnt contradict what I wrote now (note that my Covid I referred to now, occurred this October) was. Even if it did - it is generally sign of healthy mind to change your opinion when new factors appear, rather than stick with old one despite them. You saying that my logic is terrible, or flawed doesnt actually make it so. It is not even logic it is simple math. Trying to solve equation with one unavoidable variable with unknown range, makes you scientist, adding voluntarily and unnecessarily another variable with unknown range makes you crazy person for even trying. And as of now both - long term Covid and Vaccine effects are unknown variables. For all you know long term effect of vaccine may stop ageing, make people sh..t gold, or make aliens popping of their chests (all examples exaggerated in case you didnt got it). Thats in very "sinplistic terms" as you say it. Yes goverment is doing calculations ( I am living in UK now, so it seems it is doing them partying during lockdowns), but your example of them is flawed. It should look like this: we have 100 machines and need 100 engineers to keep them going just fine, but we may use random new oil and have only 25 engineers, risking that 2 machines will blow up. which is correct approach - it only sucks if you one of the 2 machines which blow up... It is also quite amusing that while trying to discredit me and my opinion you didnt address any of the points I made against vaccinating. On January 02 2022 05:51 Amui wrote:
I'm on the forced vaccination train because frankly I'm tired of my tax dollars being wasted on the unvaccinated. I am with you mate, I am tired of my taxes going for people getting vaccinated and then paying for their hospital bills anyway. With unvaccinated at least I didnt waste x times 20 dollars where x equal 2 + random number of boosters. While at it lets also start mass executions as I dont see why my taxes should be wasted on prison service. Any more wise suggestions? On January 02 2022 06:19 JimmiC wrote:
I'm not on the forced vaccination train but I'm getting closer based on every conversation with a person against vaccination not making any sense. What I would like to see is that the unvaccinated have to pay for any future hospital costs that they may incur due to covid. It is an opt out, if you opt out of the vaccine you opt out of paid for care. I would even be happy to give them a 50 dollar credit for the saving they had for not taking the vaccine. I would also make it that if they couldn't pay and there were not beds available they would have to wait at home, you would not delay any surgeries or procedures for anyone for people who choose to not get vaccinated. Totally with you on that one, some things I would add though - give me back all of my NI money I paid, also add to this everyone using fast foods, smokers, drinkers, people not exercising, people not spending enough time on fresh air. Now clearly because smokers and drinkers aren't burden to anyone anymore remove tax from alcohol and tobacco. On January 02 2022 05:12 maybenexttime wrote:
Razyda, where are you from? Poland, but currently living in UK. Guessing and being right on your guess does not change your guess to being known. This is how gamblers go broke. Actually we know covid or the vaccine wont do any of that because life is real, not a comic book and there is a limited number of outcomes. With science and data we can also successfully predict what outcomes are most likely. Unlike yours based on assumptions and irrational fear. Your analogy is terrible because we have the worlds best working on it and at this point very few things have been given to this number of people. How is new medicine ever going to be given out if you have to test and wait what 50 years to make sure no comic book likely outcome happens? And whatever point you are trying to make you missed it, those people you are describing are paricipating in the rules of society so they get to have their risks covered if it goes bad as well all do. You however want all the benifits of society, to do whatever you want personally regardless of its effects on others and the system, but take none of the consequences personally. It is the definition of entitlement. There was no points to discuss just unfounded assuptions and child like game of nearly or completely impossible "what ifs?". In plain language using actual existing information clearly state what is wrong or dangerous with vaccines, site it, and I will directly respond. Difference between guessing and predicting is that the latter only refers to the future, so let me quote you twice: "With science and data we can also successfully predict what outcomes are most likely" "This is how gamblers go broke." Point I am making stands. People whether vaccinated, or not still participate in the rules of society, they still paying taxes, insurance, obey the law etc. At this moment it is only fear speaking through you. You are affraid of Covid and are willing to make villains of people not taking vaccine, despite reasons. Looking for someone to blame is common reaction to fear. It is actually you who expects other to behave as you want, not me. To quote you again: "It is the definition of entitlement." You saying childlike game and most of your post refer to examples I specifically stated are exaggerated. You say: "There was no points to discuss" issue is you not trying to discuss anything - you preaching. You say: "In plain language using actual existing information clearly state what is wrong or dangerous with vaccines" and yet through multiple posts you failed to refer to the 3 I presented in my first post, focusing on everything else instead. I will quote them for you:
The point at which I knew I wont get vaccinated was when it turned out that every Vaccine producer wanted legal immunity (I mean like seriously what the ..., law is cool concept, but it shouldnt apply to me??, how did anyone agreed to that, how is that even actually legal?). I am sorry, but if you manufactured something and want to inject me with it, you will take responsibility, or you can inject yourself.
Then it is a case of:
where apropriate insert "millions vaccinated later"
You want get sick
You want be contagious
You want have heavy symptoms
You want have to be hospitalized
You want die
You may die, but the risk is smaller
If that doesnt prove that they didnt really knew what vaccine actually do, at the time when they started vaccinate people then I dont know what does.
Nobody (unless they have time machine) knows what long term effects of vaccines are.
Have a go. On January 02 2022 22:00 maybenexttime wrote:On January 02 2022 05:12 maybenexttime wrote:
Razyda, where are you from? Poland, but currently living in UK. Well, then you should know that indemnity for the vaccine manufacturers was never granted in Poland. As far as I know, in most of the EU, as well as in the UK it didn't extend outside the emergency authorisation. The vaccines have now been given full authorisation. As for your worries about the long-term side effects of the vaccine, how do you suppose that would work, considering that the vaccine disappears from your body within weeks after the injection? You're very selfish by the way. Do you also drink and drive because "you're a good driver" and are also far less likely to die in an accident than a random pedestrian you hit with your car? Your last sentence almost made me ignore your post, but I will give you benefit of doubt. Article you linked to actually confirms what I said. Admittedly I used incorrect phrase. I should have said: "Legal immunity from side effects of vaccine" In short according to article: - vaccine caused some side effects due to botched production process/ transport etc - manufacturer is responsible. - vaccine caused some side effects and you are able to proof that manufacturer had data about it, but didnt disclose them - manufactures is responsible - vaccine caused some side effects, but it was not from botched batch, you are unable to proof that manufacturer had any data about it - manufacturer couldnt care less. Second paragraph - Fact that something disappear from your body doesnt mean it doesnt have long lasting effects on it - similar as it is with tobacco, alcohol, drugs and everything else really. And yes I am selfish, we all are, if people werent selfish they wouldnt try to impose vaccine on others, despite their opinion. Lets say I'll get vaccinated and end up on wrong side of the statistics, are people, whose live I saved by vaccinating myself, going provide for my family? No. Well then... I can't have a go that is not a position it is incoherent rambling followed by nonsensical what ifs. If you do not understand the difference between data driven decision making and gut feels you are just out of luck mate. Your position is no different then those that blame 5g, no one knows the long term effects unless they have a time machine.... Yes you cant have a go because those are simple facts. I am glad we agreed on 2 things though: 1 - No one know long term effects. 2 - fact that description of what vaccine does is changing every few hundred millions vaccinations is indeed incoherent rambling. Only thing is this is not my incoherent rambling. On January 03 2022 03:11 maybenexttime wrote:On January 03 2022 01:47 Razyda wrote:Your last sentence almost made me ignore your post, but I will give you benefit of doubt. Why? This is exactly how you behave. As a matter of fact, you are more likely to kill someone by contracting the coronavirus and spreading it to others than by drink driving. About 700 people die in the UK in car accidents caused by drunk drivers annually. There are approximately 100,000 convictions for drunk driving and it is estimated that the number accounts for about 1-10% of all such incidents. That gives a 0.007-0.07% chance of killing someone, on average. For Omicron, the Rt and IFR in the British population are currently around 4 and 0.1% respectively, thanks to the vaccines. On average, an infected person has a chance of (1-0.999^4)*100 = 0.4% that they will end up killing someone. Bare in mind that presymptomatic transmission accounts for about half of all transmission. By getting vaccinated, you reduce that risk drastically. Article you linked to actually confirms what I said. Admittedly I used incorrect phrase. I should have said:
"Legal immunity from side effects of vaccine"
In short according to article:
- vaccine caused some side effects due to botched production process/ transport etc - manufacturer is responsible.
- vaccine caused some side effects and you are able to proof that manufacturer had data about it, but didnt disclose them - manufactures is responsible
- vaccine caused some side effects, but it was not from botched batch, you are unable to proof that manufacturer had any data about it - manufacturer couldnt care less. Where is the article does it say that? [ It list all the legal responsibilities of the manufacturer - there is nothing about legal lability for side effects of vaccine. ]Second paragraph - Fact that something disappear from your body doesnt mean it doesnt have long lasting effects on it - similar as it is with tobacco, alcohol, drugs and everything else really. The vaccine would have to do something while it's still in your body that would some knock-on effects. No such side effects have been reported thus far... [thus far...Meanwhile in Australia: ]https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-11-16/australia-faces-compensation-bill-for-vaccine-side-effects-smh[ Australia population is 25.69 million to round it up 80% is vaccinated that equals 20552000. 79000 is 0.38439081354613% of it. More than 1 in 300 people suffers side effects. There are meth dealers with better rates]And yes I am selfish, we all are, if people werent selfish they wouldnt try to impose vaccine on others, despite their opinion. Lets say I'll get vaccinated and end up on wrong side of the statistics, are people, whose live I saved by vaccinating myself, going provide for my family? No. Well then... Imposing vaccines on others benefits the whole society. That's hardly selfish. In the UK the state takes the responsibility for any negative consequences from the vaccination program. In Poland, both the state and the manufacturer. By paying taxes, the people you may have saved will indirectly provide for you. Not to mention the fact that you are far more likely to suffer negative consequences from COVID than you are from the vaccine. [you literally cant know that, thats just your wishful thinking ] By orders of magnitude. Your risk assessment is beyond terrible... You are also far more likely to harm others by not getting vaccinated and spreading the disease. How are you going to compensate the victims of your selfishness? [ I am not - if they think they at risk from Covid they should get vaccinated, wear masks, social distancing, self isolate I am not bothered by Covid and do all those, side vaccinating, all the while seeing people from increased risk group actually not doing any of that, side maybe vaccinating... ] Poland: https://www.prawo.pl/zdrowie/odszkodowania-za-powiklania-po-szczepieniach-w-tym-przeciw-covid,511999.htmlI dont think taking responsibility means the same thing for us: you can get compensated only if: you spend 14 days in hospital, or get Anaphylactic shock. Only if side effects are mentioned in description of Vaccine (what if they aren't???? ). Wait it gets better: "Act doesn't recognize that patient can die as a result of vaccination" - thats just pure comedy. UK: https://brodies.com/insights/health-and-safety/covid-19-vaccines-and-civil-liability/You are entitled to one of payment of 120k from little known fund - considering years I have till pension and family of four, they must be joking right? Sadly they dont. On January 02 2022 06:33 WombaT wrote:
Ultimately do I think people should be forced, no not really. But their decision is, almost invariably nonsensical and outside of very niche, understandable cases I don’t respect that decision at all.
That’s all, not going to advocate for compulsory vaccination, or particularly argue with those who don’t want the vaccine, I think it’s a stupid position and I’m not especially interested in regurgitating the same arguments in perpetuity. Thank you for this post, I am actually really grateful, you restored my faith in people. I also respect your attitude even though we have totally different point of view. Now lads and lassies I am leaving this thread as it is pretty clear by now, that you dont want discuss anything. I initially posted only to present my somewhat different here point of view, not trying to convince anyone to anything, except maybe to be a bit more critical to what you hear. Cheers, good luck and best wishes everyone. We dont agree on that, its been explained to you multiple times, I thought it was clear with the ridiculas 5g example and dots that it was sarcasm. You are just ignoring the ifnormation that disagrees with your gut or what you "know".
The real truth is the friends we made along the way.
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I took the first dose 5 months ago, felt like absolute dogshit for over a month. First two days was as expected, but a week later I had fever from morning till night, and after a week after that I just felt my head was exploding.
I read about a profiled athlete that had it the same way, and they thought it was latent viruses blossoming up. Is there a place to search and find information about sideffects and any precautions to take? My doctor didn't have any answers, just said its a ton they don't know yet and the first dose gave me pretty good protection.
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JimmiC knows; he is blossoming with explanations for the greatness of your deed.
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meh, and here i was, exuberantly awaiting for your advice/answer ...
+ Show Spoiler +but, but ... did i make you blush?
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On January 03 2022 07:02 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2022 04:47 ChristianS wrote:
That’s not far from my understanding FWIW (obviously I’m not an immunologist either). The first shot teaches your body what antibodies to produce, and subsequent shots trigger those systems to tell it to keep neutralizing antibodies in the bloodstream.
It’s more complicated, though, partly because subsequent shots also teach it a few more antibodies to produce (i.e. the long-term protection is better from subsequent shots, even after their short-term boost has worn off). That is to say, your immunity after the booster isn’t just back to previous highs, it’s the highest it’s ever been. You’ll recall the initial mRNA vaccines were always planned as a 2-shot regimen ~1 month apart; my understanding is that was basically a guess, based on prior research with other mRNA vaccines suggesting a multiple dose regimen was more effective. We didn’t actually *know* the second shot was necessary, or how protective a single dose would be; Pfizer and Moderna just took their best guess at what regimen would be most effective, and went to the clinic to see if that worked.
But in immunology “actually it’s more complicated” is basically always true, I think you’ve got the gist at least as well as I do. Great, thank you!
I will add that hepatitis b vaccine works very similar: 1st shot, 2nd shot one month after, with full protection two weeks after 2nd shot. And there is 3rd shot 6 months after the second, which is designed to extend the protection. So, the idea of booster shots itself isn't anything new. Which I think is important, antivaxxers often say new == dangerous.
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On January 05 2022 02:12 Silvanel wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2022 07:02 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 03 2022 04:47 ChristianS wrote:
That’s not far from my understanding FWIW (obviously I’m not an immunologist either). The first shot teaches your body what antibodies to produce, and subsequent shots trigger those systems to tell it to keep neutralizing antibodies in the bloodstream.
It’s more complicated, though, partly because subsequent shots also teach it a few more antibodies to produce (i.e. the long-term protection is better from subsequent shots, even after their short-term boost has worn off). That is to say, your immunity after the booster isn’t just back to previous highs, it’s the highest it’s ever been. You’ll recall the initial mRNA vaccines were always planned as a 2-shot regimen ~1 month apart; my understanding is that was basically a guess, based on prior research with other mRNA vaccines suggesting a multiple dose regimen was more effective. We didn’t actually *know* the second shot was necessary, or how protective a single dose would be; Pfizer and Moderna just took their best guess at what regimen would be most effective, and went to the clinic to see if that worked.
But in immunology “actually it’s more complicated” is basically always true, I think you’ve got the gist at least as well as I do. Great, thank you! I will add that hepatitis b vaccine works very similar: 1st shot, 2nd shot one month after, with full protection two weeks after 2nd shot. And there is 3rd shot 6 months after the second, which is designed to extend the protection. So, the idea of booster shots itself isn't anything new. Which I think is important, antivaxxers often say new == dangerous.
Good points
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On January 03 2022 09:27 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2022 07:40 JimmiC wrote:On January 03 2022 01:47 Razyda wrote:On January 02 2022 16:07 JimmiC wrote:On January 02 2022 13:28 Razyda wrote:On January 02 2022 02:26 JimmiC wrote:On January 02 2022 00:42 Razyda wrote:On December 31 2021 21:53 RKC wrote:
I don't know any anti-vaxxer personally. But it's not puzzling at all how their minds could potentially operate.
Perhaps they feel the virus is nothing exeptionally unusual and will eventually infect enough people for herd immunity to be reached (and vaccination hinders this natural process of evolution). Perhaps they accept that the virus is an anomaly but are prepared to accept this risk as being part of life and death.
The extreme ones believe in some tin-pot government conspiracy or cosmic forces at play. But most likely they are the minority amongst the entire anti-vax community.
I've heard of a story from a friend (purely hearsay) of a professional, intelligent and elderly person who died from COVID. Not vaccinated. Till the very end, on the hospital bed, the person remained in good spirits that he would overcome the virus. In denial until death. Sad.
Of course I share many of your frustration against these misguided folks. But I don't harbour any contempt for them, but more of pity. Maybe if we try to understand their mindset more, we can come up with a better governmental policy that could nudge them towards vaccination. And if we find out that their beliefs are really irrational, then governments can justify taking a harder stance against them (mandatory isolation, denial of health benefits, etc).
What that puzzles me more is why governments are on one hand pushing hard the message that "no one is safe until everyone is vaccinated" but on the other hand then stopped short of going harder against the unvaccinated. Maybe politics get in the way. But a middle-ground approach is bound to leave some skeptics unpersuaded.
In short, I'm not really surprised why some people remain as anti-vaxxers, and why governments find it difficult to convert them. While I dont think I am anti-vaxxer (I just dont care if others get vaccinated, or not, it is up to them) I didnt however get vaccinated and I am not planning to get vaccine. Before people jump on me: yes Covid exists, yes I put mask on when required and I do self isolate when needed. Thing with above is that they are just minor annoyances, which I can live with. Vaccines though: First of all - I knew Covid will wash over me, I was sick plenty as a kid and now I am reaping benefits of it, I dont even remember when last time I had viral infection with some serious symptoms. In case of Covid I like sneezed twice and felt a bit off for 1 day. Didnt even bother to take time off from work (I work from home btw). So it is pretty much "if is not broken, dont fix it" situation. The point at which I knew I wont get vaccinated was when it turned out that every Vaccine producer wanted legal immunity (I mean like seriously what the ..., law is cool concept, but it shouldnt apply to me??, how did anyone agreed to that, how is that even actually legal?). I am sorry, but if you manufactured something and want to inject me with it, you will take responsibility, or you can inject yourself. Then it is a case of: where apropriate insert "millions vaccinated later" You want get sick You want be contagious You want have heavy symptoms You want have to be hospitalized You want die You may die, but the risk is smaller If that doesnt prove that they didnt really knew what vaccine actually do, at the time when they started vaccinate people then I dont know what does. Nobody (unless they have time machine) knows what long term effects of vaccines are. Yes we also dont know what long term effects of Covid are, but vaccine doesnt prevent you from getting Covid, so basically if you get vaccine you changing 1 unknown for 2. When it comes to my health I'll rather stick with 1 unknown. As for me needing tinfoil hat - if believing that for large business, primary goal is to make money (look at Pfizzer profit) and everything else is secondary, makes me crazy, then yes I probably need one. Its odd to me that you "knew" many people knew and got really sick. And yes all the people tealling you to get vaccinated are injecting themselves, in fact most of those saying not to, or you shouldt have too are also injecting thrmselves. Its also odd to me that your bout with covid has changed since your post in march. I am pretty sure i had an actual coronavirus as early as 1 January and my wife 2 weeks later.
All the symptoms matched and while for me it was like really bad flu, my wife was 3 weeks barely able to move with doctors changing antibiotics and openly admitting they dont know what is happening. Your logic on future risk is really terrible. In very sinplistic terms the vaccines are much weaker to get you antibodis active to fight tge real thing, why would that be worse? In terms of actual information we have now the long term effects of covid are exponetially worse than the virus and those who had the vaccine and the virus are having way less. Given that your logic is flawed, and the scant bit of information you have provided here is incredibily inconsitent it is probably not wise to continue to rely on what you "know" and better to trust in the experts with way more, better data and have much better and unbiased ways of making determinations. Yes pfizer is making profits, but goverments are also doing calculations and guess what vaccinating your populace is WAY cheaper than dealing with those who get really sick and need hospital care and its not close. Think of how dumb we would think an engineer was to not put oil in 100 machines each month (for 2 bucks) if we knew that kept them from blowing up but if he does not 2 will blow up a year (each costing 500,000). No one would be like why are you wasting that oil on 98 machines that do not need it you are just funding that oil producer. The fact that something is odd to you quite frankly means nothing. The fact that earth circulate sun not the other way around seemed odd for many too. Simple fact is I knew I wont have problem with Covid and I didnt. However odd you find it, is honestly your problem. Like mentioned I dont care if people get Vaccinated or not - I judge arguments based on merit of argument rather than on the person providing argument. If you read what I wrote rather than getting in religious zeal you would have noticed, that my main issue with vaccines comes from statements of manufacturers. Good job digging my 2 year old post, not really sure what it has to do with Vaccines, as at the time of writing it, there was no vaccines whatsoever. Nothing I wrote then doesnt contradict what I wrote now (note that my Covid I referred to now, occurred this October) was. Even if it did - it is generally sign of healthy mind to change your opinion when new factors appear, rather than stick with old one despite them. You saying that my logic is terrible, or flawed doesnt actually make it so. It is not even logic it is simple math. Trying to solve equation with one unavoidable variable with unknown range, makes you scientist, adding voluntarily and unnecessarily another variable with unknown range makes you crazy person for even trying. And as of now both - long term Covid and Vaccine effects are unknown variables. For all you know long term effect of vaccine may stop ageing, make people sh..t gold, or make aliens popping of their chests (all examples exaggerated in case you didnt got it). Thats in very "sinplistic terms" as you say it. Yes goverment is doing calculations ( I am living in UK now, so it seems it is doing them partying during lockdowns), but your example of them is flawed. It should look like this: we have 100 machines and need 100 engineers to keep them going just fine, but we may use random new oil and have only 25 engineers, risking that 2 machines will blow up. which is correct approach - it only sucks if you one of the 2 machines which blow up... It is also quite amusing that while trying to discredit me and my opinion you didnt address any of the points I made against vaccinating. On January 02 2022 05:51 Amui wrote:
I'm on the forced vaccination train because frankly I'm tired of my tax dollars being wasted on the unvaccinated. I am with you mate, I am tired of my taxes going for people getting vaccinated and then paying for their hospital bills anyway. With unvaccinated at least I didnt waste x times 20 dollars where x equal 2 + random number of boosters. While at it lets also start mass executions as I dont see why my taxes should be wasted on prison service. Any more wise suggestions? On January 02 2022 06:19 JimmiC wrote:
I'm not on the forced vaccination train but I'm getting closer based on every conversation with a person against vaccination not making any sense. What I would like to see is that the unvaccinated have to pay for any future hospital costs that they may incur due to covid. It is an opt out, if you opt out of the vaccine you opt out of paid for care. I would even be happy to give them a 50 dollar credit for the saving they had for not taking the vaccine. I would also make it that if they couldn't pay and there were not beds available they would have to wait at home, you would not delay any surgeries or procedures for anyone for people who choose to not get vaccinated. Totally with you on that one, some things I would add though - give me back all of my NI money I paid, also add to this everyone using fast foods, smokers, drinkers, people not exercising, people not spending enough time on fresh air. Now clearly because smokers and drinkers aren't burden to anyone anymore remove tax from alcohol and tobacco. On January 02 2022 05:12 maybenexttime wrote:
Razyda, where are you from? Poland, but currently living in UK. Guessing and being right on your guess does not change your guess to being known. This is how gamblers go broke. Actually we know covid or the vaccine wont do any of that because life is real, not a comic book and there is a limited number of outcomes. With science and data we can also successfully predict what outcomes are most likely. Unlike yours based on assumptions and irrational fear. Your analogy is terrible because we have the worlds best working on it and at this point very few things have been given to this number of people. How is new medicine ever going to be given out if you have to test and wait what 50 years to make sure no comic book likely outcome happens? And whatever point you are trying to make you missed it, those people you are describing are paricipating in the rules of society so they get to have their risks covered if it goes bad as well all do. You however want all the benifits of society, to do whatever you want personally regardless of its effects on others and the system, but take none of the consequences personally. It is the definition of entitlement. There was no points to discuss just unfounded assuptions and child like game of nearly or completely impossible "what ifs?". In plain language using actual existing information clearly state what is wrong or dangerous with vaccines, site it, and I will directly respond. Difference between guessing and predicting is that the latter only refers to the future, so let me quote you twice: "With science and data we can also successfully predict what outcomes are most likely" "This is how gamblers go broke." Point I am making stands. People whether vaccinated, or not still participate in the rules of society, they still paying taxes, insurance, obey the law etc. At this moment it is only fear speaking through you. You are affraid of Covid and are willing to make villains of people not taking vaccine, despite reasons. Looking for someone to blame is common reaction to fear. It is actually you who expects other to behave as you want, not me. To quote you again: "It is the definition of entitlement." You saying childlike game and most of your post refer to examples I specifically stated are exaggerated. You say: "There was no points to discuss" issue is you not trying to discuss anything - you preaching. You say: "In plain language using actual existing information clearly state what is wrong or dangerous with vaccines" and yet through multiple posts you failed to refer to the 3 I presented in my first post, focusing on everything else instead. I will quote them for you:
The point at which I knew I wont get vaccinated was when it turned out that every Vaccine producer wanted legal immunity (I mean like seriously what the ..., law is cool concept, but it shouldnt apply to me??, how did anyone agreed to that, how is that even actually legal?). I am sorry, but if you manufactured something and want to inject me with it, you will take responsibility, or you can inject yourself.
Then it is a case of:
where apropriate insert "millions vaccinated later"
You want get sick
You want be contagious
You want have heavy symptoms
You want have to be hospitalized
You want die
You may die, but the risk is smaller
If that doesnt prove that they didnt really knew what vaccine actually do, at the time when they started vaccinate people then I dont know what does.
Nobody (unless they have time machine) knows what long term effects of vaccines are.
Have a go. On January 02 2022 22:00 maybenexttime wrote:On January 02 2022 05:12 maybenexttime wrote:
Razyda, where are you from? Poland, but currently living in UK. Well, then you should know that indemnity for the vaccine manufacturers was never granted in Poland. As far as I know, in most of the EU, as well as in the UK it didn't extend outside the emergency authorisation. The vaccines have now been given full authorisation. As for your worries about the long-term side effects of the vaccine, how do you suppose that would work, considering that the vaccine disappears from your body within weeks after the injection? You're very selfish by the way. Do you also drink and drive because "you're a good driver" and are also far less likely to die in an accident than a random pedestrian you hit with your car? Your last sentence almost made me ignore your post, but I will give you benefit of doubt. Article you linked to actually confirms what I said. Admittedly I used incorrect phrase. I should have said: "Legal immunity from side effects of vaccine" In short according to article: - vaccine caused some side effects due to botched production process/ transport etc - manufacturer is responsible. - vaccine caused some side effects and you are able to proof that manufacturer had data about it, but didnt disclose them - manufactures is responsible - vaccine caused some side effects, but it was not from botched batch, you are unable to proof that manufacturer had any data about it - manufacturer couldnt care less. Second paragraph - Fact that something disappear from your body doesnt mean it doesnt have long lasting effects on it - similar as it is with tobacco, alcohol, drugs and everything else really. And yes I am selfish, we all are, if people werent selfish they wouldnt try to impose vaccine on others, despite their opinion. Lets say I'll get vaccinated and end up on wrong side of the statistics, are people, whose live I saved by vaccinating myself, going provide for my family? No. Well then... I can't have a go that is not a position it is incoherent rambling followed by nonsensical what ifs. If you do not understand the difference between data driven decision making and gut feels you are just out of luck mate. Your position is no different then those that blame 5g, no one knows the long term effects unless they have a time machine.... Yes you cant have a go because those are simple facts. I am glad we agreed on 2 things though: 1 - No one know long term effects. 2 - fact that description of what vaccine does is changing every few hundred millions vaccinations is indeed incoherent rambling. Only thing is this is not my incoherent rambling. Show nested quote +On January 03 2022 03:11 maybenexttime wrote:On January 03 2022 01:47 Razyda wrote:Your last sentence almost made me ignore your post, but I will give you benefit of doubt. Why? This is exactly how you behave. As a matter of fact, you are more likely to kill someone by contracting the coronavirus and spreading it to others than by drink driving. About 700 people die in the UK in car accidents caused by drunk drivers annually. There are approximately 100,000 convictions for drunk driving and it is estimated that the number accounts for about 1-10% of all such incidents. That gives a 0.007-0.07% chance of killing someone, on average. For Omicron, the Rt and IFR in the British population are currently around 4 and 0.1% respectively, thanks to the vaccines. On average, an infected person has a chance of (1-0.999^4)*100 = 0.4% that they will end up killing someone. Bare in mind that presymptomatic transmission accounts for about half of all transmission. By getting vaccinated, you reduce that risk drastically. Article you linked to actually confirms what I said. Admittedly I used incorrect phrase. I should have said:
"Legal immunity from side effects of vaccine"
In short according to article:
- vaccine caused some side effects due to botched production process/ transport etc - manufacturer is responsible.
- vaccine caused some side effects and you are able to proof that manufacturer had data about it, but didnt disclose them - manufactures is responsible
- vaccine caused some side effects, but it was not from botched batch, you are unable to proof that manufacturer had any data about it - manufacturer couldnt care less. Where is the article does it say that? [ It list all the legal responsibilities of the manufacturer - there is nothing about legal lability for side effects of vaccine. ]Second paragraph - Fact that something disappear from your body doesnt mean it doesnt have long lasting effects on it - similar as it is with tobacco, alcohol, drugs and everything else really. The vaccine would have to do something while it's still in your body that would some knock-on effects. No such side effects have been reported thus far... [thus far...Meanwhile in Australia: ]https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-11-16/australia-faces-compensation-bill-for-vaccine-side-effects-smh[ Australia population is 25.69 million to round it up 80% is vaccinated that equals 20552000. 79000 is 0.38439081354613% of it. More than 1 in 300 people suffers side effects. There are meth dealers with better rates]And yes I am selfish, we all are, if people werent selfish they wouldnt try to impose vaccine on others, despite their opinion. Lets say I'll get vaccinated and end up on wrong side of the statistics, are people, whose live I saved by vaccinating myself, going provide for my family? No. Well then... Imposing vaccines on others benefits the whole society. That's hardly selfish. In the UK the state takes the responsibility for any negative consequences from the vaccination program. In Poland, both the state and the manufacturer. By paying taxes, the people you may have saved will indirectly provide for you. Not to mention the fact that you are far more likely to suffer negative consequences from COVID than you are from the vaccine. [you literally cant know that, thats just your wishful thinking ] By orders of magnitude. Your risk assessment is beyond terrible... You are also far more likely to harm others by not getting vaccinated and spreading the disease. How are you going to compensate the victims of your selfishness? [ I am not - if they think they at risk from Covid they should get vaccinated, wear masks, social distancing, self isolate I am not bothered by Covid and do all those, side vaccinating, all the while seeing people from increased risk group actually not doing any of that, side maybe vaccinating... ] Poland: https://www.prawo.pl/zdrowie/odszkodowania-za-powiklania-po-szczepieniach-w-tym-przeciw-covid,511999.htmlI dont think taking responsibility means the same thing for us: you can get compensated only if: you spend 14 days in hospital, or get Anaphylactic shock. Only if side effects are mentioned in description of Vaccine (what if they aren't???? ). Wait it gets better: "Act doesn't recognize that patient can die as a result of vaccination" - thats just pure comedy. UK: https://brodies.com/insights/health-and-safety/covid-19-vaccines-and-civil-liability/You are entitled to one of payment of 120k from little known fund - considering years I have till pension and family of four, they must be joking right? Sadly they dont. Show nested quote +On January 02 2022 06:33 WombaT wrote:
Ultimately do I think people should be forced, no not really. But their decision is, almost invariably nonsensical and outside of very niche, understandable cases I don’t respect that decision at all.
That’s all, not going to advocate for compulsory vaccination, or particularly argue with those who don’t want the vaccine, I think it’s a stupid position and I’m not especially interested in regurgitating the same arguments in perpetuity. Thank you for this post, I am actually really grateful, you restored my faith in people. I also respect your attitude even though we have totally different point of view. Now lads and lassies I am leaving this thread as it is pretty clear by now, that you dont want discuss anything. I initially posted only to present my somewhat different here point of view, not trying to convince anyone to anything, except maybe to be a bit more critical to what you hear. Cheers, good luck and best wishes everyone.
Just in case someone took your rambling seriously, the side effects mentioned in that article about Australia are:
The most frequent reported side effects include a sore arm, headache, fever and chills.
I'm guessing Australian social security is beyond crap and people had to take unpaid leave. So, yeah, Australia faces a hefty bill for that. But that is neither the case in the UK nor Poland, where you can take paid sick leave in the case of the vaccine knocking you out. Unless you're arguing that these side effects are the knock-on effects are related to these side effects. Despite these side effects being fairly common side effects for any vaccine: it is your immune response doing what it's supposed to do. Btw, try the yellow fever vaccination, it's really unpleasant. Still rather that than actually get yellow fever!
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On January 05 2022 03:34 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2022 09:27 Razyda wrote:On January 03 2022 07:40 JimmiC wrote:On January 03 2022 01:47 Razyda wrote:On January 02 2022 16:07 JimmiC wrote:On January 02 2022 13:28 Razyda wrote:On January 02 2022 02:26 JimmiC wrote:On January 02 2022 00:42 Razyda wrote:On December 31 2021 21:53 RKC wrote:
I don't know any anti-vaxxer personally. But it's not puzzling at all how their minds could potentially operate.
Perhaps they feel the virus is nothing exeptionally unusual and will eventually infect enough people for herd immunity to be reached (and vaccination hinders this natural process of evolution). Perhaps they accept that the virus is an anomaly but are prepared to accept this risk as being part of life and death.
The extreme ones believe in some tin-pot government conspiracy or cosmic forces at play. But most likely they are the minority amongst the entire anti-vax community.
I've heard of a story from a friend (purely hearsay) of a professional, intelligent and elderly person who died from COVID. Not vaccinated. Till the very end, on the hospital bed, the person remained in good spirits that he would overcome the virus. In denial until death. Sad.
Of course I share many of your frustration against these misguided folks. But I don't harbour any contempt for them, but more of pity. Maybe if we try to understand their mindset more, we can come up with a better governmental policy that could nudge them towards vaccination. And if we find out that their beliefs are really irrational, then governments can justify taking a harder stance against them (mandatory isolation, denial of health benefits, etc).
What that puzzles me more is why governments are on one hand pushing hard the message that "no one is safe until everyone is vaccinated" but on the other hand then stopped short of going harder against the unvaccinated. Maybe politics get in the way. But a middle-ground approach is bound to leave some skeptics unpersuaded.
In short, I'm not really surprised why some people remain as anti-vaxxers, and why governments find it difficult to convert them. While I dont think I am anti-vaxxer (I just dont care if others get vaccinated, or not, it is up to them) I didnt however get vaccinated and I am not planning to get vaccine. Before people jump on me: yes Covid exists, yes I put mask on when required and I do self isolate when needed. Thing with above is that they are just minor annoyances, which I can live with. Vaccines though: First of all - I knew Covid will wash over me, I was sick plenty as a kid and now I am reaping benefits of it, I dont even remember when last time I had viral infection with some serious symptoms. In case of Covid I like sneezed twice and felt a bit off for 1 day. Didnt even bother to take time off from work (I work from home btw). So it is pretty much "if is not broken, dont fix it" situation. The point at which I knew I wont get vaccinated was when it turned out that every Vaccine producer wanted legal immunity (I mean like seriously what the ..., law is cool concept, but it shouldnt apply to me??, how did anyone agreed to that, how is that even actually legal?). I am sorry, but if you manufactured something and want to inject me with it, you will take responsibility, or you can inject yourself. Then it is a case of: where apropriate insert "millions vaccinated later" You want get sick You want be contagious You want have heavy symptoms You want have to be hospitalized You want die You may die, but the risk is smaller If that doesnt prove that they didnt really knew what vaccine actually do, at the time when they started vaccinate people then I dont know what does. Nobody (unless they have time machine) knows what long term effects of vaccines are. Yes we also dont know what long term effects of Covid are, but vaccine doesnt prevent you from getting Covid, so basically if you get vaccine you changing 1 unknown for 2. When it comes to my health I'll rather stick with 1 unknown. As for me needing tinfoil hat - if believing that for large business, primary goal is to make money (look at Pfizzer profit) and everything else is secondary, makes me crazy, then yes I probably need one. Its odd to me that you "knew" many people knew and got really sick. And yes all the people tealling you to get vaccinated are injecting themselves, in fact most of those saying not to, or you shouldt have too are also injecting thrmselves. Its also odd to me that your bout with covid has changed since your post in march. I am pretty sure i had an actual coronavirus as early as 1 January and my wife 2 weeks later.
All the symptoms matched and while for me it was like really bad flu, my wife was 3 weeks barely able to move with doctors changing antibiotics and openly admitting they dont know what is happening. Your logic on future risk is really terrible. In very sinplistic terms the vaccines are much weaker to get you antibodis active to fight tge real thing, why would that be worse? In terms of actual information we have now the long term effects of covid are exponetially worse than the virus and those who had the vaccine and the virus are having way less. Given that your logic is flawed, and the scant bit of information you have provided here is incredibily inconsitent it is probably not wise to continue to rely on what you "know" and better to trust in the experts with way more, better data and have much better and unbiased ways of making determinations. Yes pfizer is making profits, but goverments are also doing calculations and guess what vaccinating your populace is WAY cheaper than dealing with those who get really sick and need hospital care and its not close. Think of how dumb we would think an engineer was to not put oil in 100 machines each month (for 2 bucks) if we knew that kept them from blowing up but if he does not 2 will blow up a year (each costing 500,000). No one would be like why are you wasting that oil on 98 machines that do not need it you are just funding that oil producer. The fact that something is odd to you quite frankly means nothing. The fact that earth circulate sun not the other way around seemed odd for many too. Simple fact is I knew I wont have problem with Covid and I didnt. However odd you find it, is honestly your problem. Like mentioned I dont care if people get Vaccinated or not - I judge arguments based on merit of argument rather than on the person providing argument. If you read what I wrote rather than getting in religious zeal you would have noticed, that my main issue with vaccines comes from statements of manufacturers. Good job digging my 2 year old post, not really sure what it has to do with Vaccines, as at the time of writing it, there was no vaccines whatsoever. Nothing I wrote then doesnt contradict what I wrote now (note that my Covid I referred to now, occurred this October) was. Even if it did - it is generally sign of healthy mind to change your opinion when new factors appear, rather than stick with old one despite them. You saying that my logic is terrible, or flawed doesnt actually make it so. It is not even logic it is simple math. Trying to solve equation with one unavoidable variable with unknown range, makes you scientist, adding voluntarily and unnecessarily another variable with unknown range makes you crazy person for even trying. And as of now both - long term Covid and Vaccine effects are unknown variables. For all you know long term effect of vaccine may stop ageing, make people sh..t gold, or make aliens popping of their chests (all examples exaggerated in case you didnt got it). Thats in very "sinplistic terms" as you say it. Yes goverment is doing calculations ( I am living in UK now, so it seems it is doing them partying during lockdowns), but your example of them is flawed. It should look like this: we have 100 machines and need 100 engineers to keep them going just fine, but we may use random new oil and have only 25 engineers, risking that 2 machines will blow up. which is correct approach - it only sucks if you one of the 2 machines which blow up... It is also quite amusing that while trying to discredit me and my opinion you didnt address any of the points I made against vaccinating. On January 02 2022 05:51 Amui wrote:
I'm on the forced vaccination train because frankly I'm tired of my tax dollars being wasted on the unvaccinated. I am with you mate, I am tired of my taxes going for people getting vaccinated and then paying for their hospital bills anyway. With unvaccinated at least I didnt waste x times 20 dollars where x equal 2 + random number of boosters. While at it lets also start mass executions as I dont see why my taxes should be wasted on prison service. Any more wise suggestions? On January 02 2022 06:19 JimmiC wrote:
I'm not on the forced vaccination train but I'm getting closer based on every conversation with a person against vaccination not making any sense. What I would like to see is that the unvaccinated have to pay for any future hospital costs that they may incur due to covid. It is an opt out, if you opt out of the vaccine you opt out of paid for care. I would even be happy to give them a 50 dollar credit for the saving they had for not taking the vaccine. I would also make it that if they couldn't pay and there were not beds available they would have to wait at home, you would not delay any surgeries or procedures for anyone for people who choose to not get vaccinated. Totally with you on that one, some things I would add though - give me back all of my NI money I paid, also add to this everyone using fast foods, smokers, drinkers, people not exercising, people not spending enough time on fresh air. Now clearly because smokers and drinkers aren't burden to anyone anymore remove tax from alcohol and tobacco. On January 02 2022 05:12 maybenexttime wrote:
Razyda, where are you from? Poland, but currently living in UK. Guessing and being right on your guess does not change your guess to being known. This is how gamblers go broke. Actually we know covid or the vaccine wont do any of that because life is real, not a comic book and there is a limited number of outcomes. With science and data we can also successfully predict what outcomes are most likely. Unlike yours based on assumptions and irrational fear. Your analogy is terrible because we have the worlds best working on it and at this point very few things have been given to this number of people. How is new medicine ever going to be given out if you have to test and wait what 50 years to make sure no comic book likely outcome happens? And whatever point you are trying to make you missed it, those people you are describing are paricipating in the rules of society so they get to have their risks covered if it goes bad as well all do. You however want all the benifits of society, to do whatever you want personally regardless of its effects on others and the system, but take none of the consequences personally. It is the definition of entitlement. There was no points to discuss just unfounded assuptions and child like game of nearly or completely impossible "what ifs?". In plain language using actual existing information clearly state what is wrong or dangerous with vaccines, site it, and I will directly respond. Difference between guessing and predicting is that the latter only refers to the future, so let me quote you twice: "With science and data we can also successfully predict what outcomes are most likely" "This is how gamblers go broke." Point I am making stands. People whether vaccinated, or not still participate in the rules of society, they still paying taxes, insurance, obey the law etc. At this moment it is only fear speaking through you. You are affraid of Covid and are willing to make villains of people not taking vaccine, despite reasons. Looking for someone to blame is common reaction to fear. It is actually you who expects other to behave as you want, not me. To quote you again: "It is the definition of entitlement." You saying childlike game and most of your post refer to examples I specifically stated are exaggerated. You say: "There was no points to discuss" issue is you not trying to discuss anything - you preaching. You say: "In plain language using actual existing information clearly state what is wrong or dangerous with vaccines" and yet through multiple posts you failed to refer to the 3 I presented in my first post, focusing on everything else instead. I will quote them for you:
The point at which I knew I wont get vaccinated was when it turned out that every Vaccine producer wanted legal immunity (I mean like seriously what the ..., law is cool concept, but it shouldnt apply to me??, how did anyone agreed to that, how is that even actually legal?). I am sorry, but if you manufactured something and want to inject me with it, you will take responsibility, or you can inject yourself.
Then it is a case of:
where apropriate insert "millions vaccinated later"
You want get sick
You want be contagious
You want have heavy symptoms
You want have to be hospitalized
You want die
You may die, but the risk is smaller
If that doesnt prove that they didnt really knew what vaccine actually do, at the time when they started vaccinate people then I dont know what does.
Nobody (unless they have time machine) knows what long term effects of vaccines are.
Have a go. On January 02 2022 22:00 maybenexttime wrote:On January 02 2022 05:12 maybenexttime wrote:
Razyda, where are you from? Poland, but currently living in UK. Well, then you should know that indemnity for the vaccine manufacturers was never granted in Poland. As far as I know, in most of the EU, as well as in the UK it didn't extend outside the emergency authorisation. The vaccines have now been given full authorisation. As for your worries about the long-term side effects of the vaccine, how do you suppose that would work, considering that the vaccine disappears from your body within weeks after the injection? You're very selfish by the way. Do you also drink and drive because "you're a good driver" and are also far less likely to die in an accident than a random pedestrian you hit with your car? Your last sentence almost made me ignore your post, but I will give you benefit of doubt. Article you linked to actually confirms what I said. Admittedly I used incorrect phrase. I should have said: "Legal immunity from side effects of vaccine" In short according to article: - vaccine caused some side effects due to botched production process/ transport etc - manufacturer is responsible. - vaccine caused some side effects and you are able to proof that manufacturer had data about it, but didnt disclose them - manufactures is responsible - vaccine caused some side effects, but it was not from botched batch, you are unable to proof that manufacturer had any data about it - manufacturer couldnt care less. Second paragraph - Fact that something disappear from your body doesnt mean it doesnt have long lasting effects on it - similar as it is with tobacco, alcohol, drugs and everything else really. And yes I am selfish, we all are, if people werent selfish they wouldnt try to impose vaccine on others, despite their opinion. Lets say I'll get vaccinated and end up on wrong side of the statistics, are people, whose live I saved by vaccinating myself, going provide for my family? No. Well then... I can't have a go that is not a position it is incoherent rambling followed by nonsensical what ifs. If you do not understand the difference between data driven decision making and gut feels you are just out of luck mate. Your position is no different then those that blame 5g, no one knows the long term effects unless they have a time machine.... Yes you cant have a go because those are simple facts. I am glad we agreed on 2 things though: 1 - No one know long term effects. 2 - fact that description of what vaccine does is changing every few hundred millions vaccinations is indeed incoherent rambling. Only thing is this is not my incoherent rambling. On January 03 2022 03:11 maybenexttime wrote:On January 03 2022 01:47 Razyda wrote:Your last sentence almost made me ignore your post, but I will give you benefit of doubt. Why? This is exactly how you behave. As a matter of fact, you are more likely to kill someone by contracting the coronavirus and spreading it to others than by drink driving. About 700 people die in the UK in car accidents caused by drunk drivers annually. There are approximately 100,000 convictions for drunk driving and it is estimated that the number accounts for about 1-10% of all such incidents. That gives a 0.007-0.07% chance of killing someone, on average. For Omicron, the Rt and IFR in the British population are currently around 4 and 0.1% respectively, thanks to the vaccines. On average, an infected person has a chance of (1-0.999^4)*100 = 0.4% that they will end up killing someone. Bare in mind that presymptomatic transmission accounts for about half of all transmission. By getting vaccinated, you reduce that risk drastically. Article you linked to actually confirms what I said. Admittedly I used incorrect phrase. I should have said:
"Legal immunity from side effects of vaccine"
In short according to article:
- vaccine caused some side effects due to botched production process/ transport etc - manufacturer is responsible.
- vaccine caused some side effects and you are able to proof that manufacturer had data about it, but didnt disclose them - manufactures is responsible
- vaccine caused some side effects, but it was not from botched batch, you are unable to proof that manufacturer had any data about it - manufacturer couldnt care less. Where is the article does it say that? [ It list all the legal responsibilities of the manufacturer - there is nothing about legal lability for side effects of vaccine. ]Second paragraph - Fact that something disappear from your body doesnt mean it doesnt have long lasting effects on it - similar as it is with tobacco, alcohol, drugs and everything else really. The vaccine would have to do something while it's still in your body that would some knock-on effects. No such side effects have been reported thus far... [thus far...Meanwhile in Australia: ]https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-11-16/australia-faces-compensation-bill-for-vaccine-side-effects-smh[ Australia population is 25.69 million to round it up 80% is vaccinated that equals 20552000. 79000 is 0.38439081354613% of it. More than 1 in 300 people suffers side effects. There are meth dealers with better rates]And yes I am selfish, we all are, if people werent selfish they wouldnt try to impose vaccine on others, despite their opinion. Lets say I'll get vaccinated and end up on wrong side of the statistics, are people, whose live I saved by vaccinating myself, going provide for my family? No. Well then... Imposing vaccines on others benefits the whole society. That's hardly selfish. In the UK the state takes the responsibility for any negative consequences from the vaccination program. In Poland, both the state and the manufacturer. By paying taxes, the people you may have saved will indirectly provide for you. Not to mention the fact that you are far more likely to suffer negative consequences from COVID than you are from the vaccine. [you literally cant know that, thats just your wishful thinking ] By orders of magnitude. Your risk assessment is beyond terrible... You are also far more likely to harm others by not getting vaccinated and spreading the disease. How are you going to compensate the victims of your selfishness? [ I am not - if they think they at risk from Covid they should get vaccinated, wear masks, social distancing, self isolate I am not bothered by Covid and do all those, side vaccinating, all the while seeing people from increased risk group actually not doing any of that, side maybe vaccinating... ] Poland: https://www.prawo.pl/zdrowie/odszkodowania-za-powiklania-po-szczepieniach-w-tym-przeciw-covid,511999.htmlI dont think taking responsibility means the same thing for us: you can get compensated only if: you spend 14 days in hospital, or get Anaphylactic shock. Only if side effects are mentioned in description of Vaccine (what if they aren't???? ). Wait it gets better: "Act doesn't recognize that patient can die as a result of vaccination" - thats just pure comedy. UK: https://brodies.com/insights/health-and-safety/covid-19-vaccines-and-civil-liability/You are entitled to one of payment of 120k from little known fund - considering years I have till pension and family of four, they must be joking right? Sadly they dont. On January 02 2022 06:33 WombaT wrote:
Ultimately do I think people should be forced, no not really. But their decision is, almost invariably nonsensical and outside of very niche, understandable cases I don’t respect that decision at all.
That’s all, not going to advocate for compulsory vaccination, or particularly argue with those who don’t want the vaccine, I think it’s a stupid position and I’m not especially interested in regurgitating the same arguments in perpetuity. Thank you for this post, I am actually really grateful, you restored my faith in people. I also respect your attitude even though we have totally different point of view. Now lads and lassies I am leaving this thread as it is pretty clear by now, that you dont want discuss anything. I initially posted only to present my somewhat different here point of view, not trying to convince anyone to anything, except maybe to be a bit more critical to what you hear. Cheers, good luck and best wishes everyone. Just in case someone took your rambling seriously, the side effects mentioned in that article about Australia are: Show nested quote +
The most frequent reported side effects include a sore arm, headache, fever and chills.
I'm guessing Australian social security is beyond crap and people had to take unpaid leave. So, yeah, Australia faces a hefty bill for that. But that is neither the case in the UK nor Poland, where you can take paid sick leave in the case of the vaccine knocking you out. Unless you're arguing that these side effects are the knock-on effects are related to these side effects. Despite these side effects being fairly common side effects for any vaccine: it is your immune response doing what it's supposed to do. Btw, try the yellow fever vaccination, it's really unpleasant. Still rather that than actually get yellow fever!
For what its worth, you can take paid sick leave here too, and there is a government payment if you've exhausted whatever special leave your employer offers. Our social security is ok and our public health system is quite good, generally high in oecd rankings etc.
10k is a big scary number to emote about on your YouTube channel, but it actually works out to 0.05% of people dosed. Overall side-effect rate was 0.21%. Deaths were 0.0005% in nov (9 people, all elderly). Those numbers are pretty fine.
There's also probably an element of people trying their luck with the free government money. That 10k hasn't been approved, just applied.
The original is soft-paywalled here
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/more-than-10-000-australians-have-filed-coronavirus-vaccine-injury-claims-20211115-p598yy.html
The Therapeutic Goods Administration recorded 78,880 adverse events linked to COVID-19 vaccination, representing a small minority (0.21 per cent) of the 37.8 million doses administered to 18.4 million people, by November 7. The vast majority of those 78,000 adverse events were mild side effects, including headache, nausea and sore arms.
More than 10,000 people have registered their interest to make a claim since registration opened on the federal health department’s website in September, official data shows, meaning it would cost at least $50 million if each claim is approved.
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6252 cases here when it was like 1000 or slightly above the last few days, so difference is almost 5 times in this spike. Well, it's got to be Omicron most likely.
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EPT
