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On November 19 2021 23:10 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2021 22:03 teeel141 wrote:On November 19 2021 21:15 Amui wrote:On November 19 2021 20:33 teeel141 wrote:
This is honestly a disaster, mandating vaccines that wont even end the pandemic. Democracy is over if this is allowed to happen in europe. Mandating vaccines will end it regionally. Cases can and will be imported from both animals and from other countries. You need somewhere around 75-85% overall vaccinated on top of all the people catching Covid to fully reopen. So after all the people drag their feet and don't get dosed for one reason or another, and the pandemic has gone on for months and months longer than it should've, the government pulls out the stick. Democracy is the will of the people. Dunno about you, but here 90+% of people are tired of the small minority that has caused this to drag on for months longer than was really necessary. This is not true at all. Herd immunity wouldnt happen even with 100% vaccination. This bold, any source on thid or your end of democracy comment? You do realize many democracies already have mandatory vaccines correct? I posted the state of flordias long list a while back and they have a "libretarian" in charge. Hes not considering changing that list.
This is a twitter thread from july, it assumes r0 of 6 (it's probably higher). And also vaccine effectiveness has gone down even more.
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Also look at iceland as an example, they have 77% fully vaccinated and theyre an island so they can control virus coming from outside. And yet they are having the biggest wave in the entire pandemic. Surely if 100% was enough case rate would be much smaller.
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On November 20 2021 00:23 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2021 00:20 teeel141 wrote:
Also look at iceland as an example, they have 77% fully vaccinated and theyre an island so they can control virus coming from outside. And yet they are having the biggest wave in the entire pandemic. Surely if 100% was enough case rate would be much smaller. That is not how it works at all mate. And notice your other source says much higher than 70 not impossible AND you are still using eligible people not total people.
How about you read that source again (click on the entire thread)? And im not using eligible people 77% is total number look it up on google.
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On November 20 2021 00:47 teeel141 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2021 00:23 JimmiC wrote:On November 20 2021 00:20 teeel141 wrote:
Also look at iceland as an example, they have 77% fully vaccinated and theyre an island so they can control virus coming from outside. And yet they are having the biggest wave in the entire pandemic. Surely if 100% was enough case rate would be much smaller. That is not how it works at all mate. And notice your other source says much higher than 70 not impossible AND you are still using eligible people not total people. How about you read that source again (click on the entire thread)? And im not using eligible people 77% is total number look it up on google.
How about you tell him whats wrong instead of being a dick assuming that he didn't?
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On November 19 2021 23:18 Sbrubbles wrote:
I don't see how this means "democracy is over". These are actions taken by democratically elected governments, they're not targeted against one specific class/ethnicity/nationality, they don't interfere with future elections, they don't set up undemocratic bodies, they don't tip the cards in favor of a specific political party.
I have no problem with vaccination mandares, so long as they don't involve:
A) Force (aka, physically forcing people to vaccinate)
B) Denial of public health services
C) Denial of resources (food for homeless, for example) to the absolute poorest
Hoping for some democratically elected governments issuing some democratically elected prison sentences to those who don't comply with the mandate. That'll show 'em.
Having a general mandate is absolutely a slippery slope into disastrous consequences. Some people may see it as worth it - seems like there's nothing some people wouldn't sacrifice if it promises more safety from the pandemic. But calling it democratic with a contrived list of (not entirely accurate) justifying circumstances is quite disingenuous.
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On November 20 2021 00:47 teeel141 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2021 00:23 JimmiC wrote:On November 20 2021 00:20 teeel141 wrote:
Also look at iceland as an example, they have 77% fully vaccinated and theyre an island so they can control virus coming from outside. And yet they are having the biggest wave in the entire pandemic. Surely if 100% was enough case rate would be much smaller. That is not how it works at all mate. And notice your other source says much higher than 70 not impossible AND you are still using eligible people not total people. How about you read that source again (click on the entire thread)? And im not using eligible people 77% is total number look it up on google.
Telling someone to read again is an extremely lazy way to conduct a conversation.
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On November 20 2021 01:12 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2021 23:18 Sbrubbles wrote:
I don't see how this means "democracy is over". These are actions taken by democratically elected governments, they're not targeted against one specific class/ethnicity/nationality, they don't interfere with future elections, they don't set up undemocratic bodies, they don't tip the cards in favor of a specific political party.
I have no problem with vaccination mandares, so long as they don't involve:
A) Force (aka, physically forcing people to vaccinate)
B) Denial of public health services
C) Denial of resources (food for homeless, for example) to the absolute poorest Hoping for some democratically elected governments issuing some democratically elected prison sentences to those who don't comply with the mandate. That'll show 'em. Having a general mandate is absolutely a slippery slope into disastrous consequences. Some people may see it as worth it - seems like there's nothing some people wouldn't sacrifice if it promises more safety from the pandemic. But calling it democratic with a contrived list of (not entirely accurate) justifying circumstances is quite disingenuous.
Assuming a slippery slope here is simply fallacious and calling something "undemocratic" when it comes out of a fair democratic process requires some explanation which neither you nor him have bothered to put up.
If he or you had claimed it as a "violation of human rights" or something to that effect, I wouldn't be making this point, but that's not the same as calling it the end of democracy.
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On November 20 2021 01:12 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2021 23:18 Sbrubbles wrote:
I don't see how this means "democracy is over". These are actions taken by democratically elected governments, they're not targeted against one specific class/ethnicity/nationality, they don't interfere with future elections, they don't set up undemocratic bodies, they don't tip the cards in favor of a specific political party.
I have no problem with vaccination mandares, so long as they don't involve:
A) Force (aka, physically forcing people to vaccinate)
B) Denial of public health services
C) Denial of resources (food for homeless, for example) to the absolute poorest Hoping for some democratically elected governments issuing some democratically elected prison sentences to those who don't comply with the mandate. That'll show 'em. Having a general mandate is absolutely a slippery slope into disastrous consequences. Some people may see it as worth it - seems like there's nothing some people wouldn't sacrifice if it promises more safety from the pandemic. But calling it democratic with a contrived list of (not entirely accurate) justifying circumstances is quite disingenuous.
Without commenting on the merits of a covid vaccine mandate, I'd say that expecting "disastrous consequenes" is overly dramatic and point out that if it is a slippery slope, then Austria is joining on the tail end of the slope (or more like on its n-th ride). Currently, the following European countries have general (non-covid) vaccine madates:
Belgium, France, Italy, Czech Republic, Hungary.
Additionally, non-covid vaccine madates exist in Greece, Croatia, Latvia, Malta, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia (not sure if those are apply to all citizens, though, and cannot be bothered to investigate further)
Not to mention than historically, vaccine mandates have existed in many countries for extended periods of time. In what is now (West-)Germany, there have been vaccine mandates from 1807 till 1983 and again since 2019 (measles).
+ Show Spoiler +
On top of that, I am pretty sure that the entire Eastern block used to have vaccine mandates during communist times. I guess, these countries in that particular period of time would not be counted as "free" by some people in here, but the point is: The world did not go under.
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On November 20 2021 01:59 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2021 01:12 LegalLord wrote:On November 19 2021 23:18 Sbrubbles wrote:
I don't see how this means "democracy is over". These are actions taken by democratically elected governments, they're not targeted against one specific class/ethnicity/nationality, they don't interfere with future elections, they don't set up undemocratic bodies, they don't tip the cards in favor of a specific political party.
I have no problem with vaccination mandares, so long as they don't involve:
A) Force (aka, physically forcing people to vaccinate)
B) Denial of public health services
C) Denial of resources (food for homeless, for example) to the absolute poorest Hoping for some democratically elected governments issuing some democratically elected prison sentences to those who don't comply with the mandate. That'll show 'em. Having a general mandate is absolutely a slippery slope into disastrous consequences. Some people may see it as worth it - seems like there's nothing some people wouldn't sacrifice if it promises more safety from the pandemic. But calling it democratic with a contrived list of (not entirely accurate) justifying circumstances is quite disingenuous. Assuming a slippery slope here is simply fallacious and calling something "undemocratic" when it comes out of a fair democratic process requires some explanation which neither you nor him have bothered to put up. If he or you had claimed it as a "violation of human rights" or something to that effect, I wouldn't be making this point, but that's not the same as calling it the end of democracy.
Russia is a democracy then.
Why argue about definitions or the way i worded things? You know what i meant.
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On November 20 2021 01:59 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2021 01:12 LegalLord wrote:On November 19 2021 23:18 Sbrubbles wrote:
I don't see how this means "democracy is over". These are actions taken by democratically elected governments, they're not targeted against one specific class/ethnicity/nationality, they don't interfere with future elections, they don't set up undemocratic bodies, they don't tip the cards in favor of a specific political party.
I have no problem with vaccination mandares, so long as they don't involve:
A) Force (aka, physically forcing people to vaccinate)
B) Denial of public health services
C) Denial of resources (food for homeless, for example) to the absolute poorest Hoping for some democratically elected governments issuing some democratically elected prison sentences to those who don't comply with the mandate. That'll show 'em. Having a general mandate is absolutely a slippery slope into disastrous consequences. Some people may see it as worth it - seems like there's nothing some people wouldn't sacrifice if it promises more safety from the pandemic. But calling it democratic with a contrived list of (not entirely accurate) justifying circumstances is quite disingenuous. Assuming a slippery slope here is simply fallacious and calling something "undemocratic" when it comes out of a fair democratic process requires some explanation which neither you nor him have bothered to put up. If he or you had claimed it as a "violation of human rights" or something to that effect, I wouldn't be making this point, but that's not the same as calling it the end of democracy.
I mean if you want to go for the route of "if it came out of a democratic process, it's democratic" even if the consequences are significantly in contrast to what you might want out of a country that has that kind of system, I won't argue. At that point it's just silly semantic quibbles, which I'm not interested in. The connotation of having used "violation of human rights" would be quite similar to what was actually said, but you say you wouldn't have a problem with that, so ok.
On November 20 2021 02:03 ggrrg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2021 01:12 LegalLord wrote:On November 19 2021 23:18 Sbrubbles wrote:
I don't see how this means "democracy is over". These are actions taken by democratically elected governments, they're not targeted against one specific class/ethnicity/nationality, they don't interfere with future elections, they don't set up undemocratic bodies, they don't tip the cards in favor of a specific political party.
I have no problem with vaccination mandares, so long as they don't involve:
A) Force (aka, physically forcing people to vaccinate)
B) Denial of public health services
C) Denial of resources (food for homeless, for example) to the absolute poorest Hoping for some democratically elected governments issuing some democratically elected prison sentences to those who don't comply with the mandate. That'll show 'em. Having a general mandate is absolutely a slippery slope into disastrous consequences. Some people may see it as worth it - seems like there's nothing some people wouldn't sacrifice if it promises more safety from the pandemic. But calling it democratic with a contrived list of (not entirely accurate) justifying circumstances is quite disingenuous. Without commenting on the merits of a covid vaccine mandate, I'd say that expecting "disastrous consequenes" is overly dramatic and point out that if it is a slippery slope, then Austria is joining on the tail end of the slope (or more like on its n-th ride). Currently, the following European countries have general (non-covid) vaccine madates: Belgium, France, Italy, Czech Republic, Hungary. Additionally, non-covid vaccine madates exist in Greece, Croatia, Latvia, Malta, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia (not sure if those are apply to all citizens, though, and cannot be bothered to investigate further) Not to mention than historically, vaccine mandates have existed in many countries for extended periods of time. In what is now (West-)Germany, there have been vaccine mandates from 1807 till 1983 and again since 2019 (measles). + Show Spoiler +On top of that, I am pretty sure that the entire Eastern block used to have vaccine mandates during communist times. I guess, these countries in that particular period of time would not be counted as "free" by some people in here, but the point is: The world did not go under.
A slippery slope into disastrous consequences. That is, not that it will directly cause them, but it certainly would trend in that direction. And the differences between general mandates for vaccines (e.g. polio, tetanus) under the standard conditions they are applied, and the ones for corvid vaccines, are significant. The way the latter have to be applied, in the middle of a crisis, is absolutely quite different from the way the former are applied, with slow-burning consequences under non-crisis conditions. All this is not to say that people shouldn't get vaccinated - they absolutely should, and should be encouraged to - just that the circumstances under which mandates must happen to be of effect within the timeframe of the current crisis are deeply problematic and by necessity authoritarian in nature. And that is very much a slippery slope into disastrous consequences.
The East European countries have a pretty strong trend of antivax in them, and a lot of people blame decades of strong vaccine mandates. For whatever that's worth.
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On November 20 2021 02:03 ggrrg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2021 01:12 LegalLord wrote:On November 19 2021 23:18 Sbrubbles wrote:
I don't see how this means "democracy is over". These are actions taken by democratically elected governments, they're not targeted against one specific class/ethnicity/nationality, they don't interfere with future elections, they don't set up undemocratic bodies, they don't tip the cards in favor of a specific political party.
I have no problem with vaccination mandares, so long as they don't involve:
A) Force (aka, physically forcing people to vaccinate)
B) Denial of public health services
C) Denial of resources (food for homeless, for example) to the absolute poorest Hoping for some democratically elected governments issuing some democratically elected prison sentences to those who don't comply with the mandate. That'll show 'em. Having a general mandate is absolutely a slippery slope into disastrous consequences. Some people may see it as worth it - seems like there's nothing some people wouldn't sacrifice if it promises more safety from the pandemic. But calling it democratic with a contrived list of (not entirely accurate) justifying circumstances is quite disingenuous. Without commenting on the merits of a covid vaccine mandate, I'd say that expecting "disastrous consequenes" is overly dramatic and point out that if it is a slippery slope, then Austria is joining on the tail end of the slope (or more like on its n-th ride). Currently, the following European countries have general (non-covid) vaccine madates: Belgium, France, Italy, Czech Republic, Hungary. Additionally, non-covid vaccine madates exist in Greece, Croatia, Latvia, Malta, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia (not sure if those are apply to all citizens, though, and cannot be bothered to investigate further) Not to mention than historically, vaccine mandates have existed in many countries for extended periods of time. In what is now (West-)Germany, there have been vaccine mandates from 1807 till 1983 and again since 2019 (measles). + Show Spoiler +On top of that, I am pretty sure that the entire Eastern block used to have vaccine mandates during communist times. I guess, these countries in that particular period of time would not be counted as "free" by some people in here, but the point is: The world did not go under.
The general covid-19 vaccine mandate in Austria is unprecedented. The mandates were always specific, for example for children (smallpox) and specified businesses that were at enhanced risk.
A general covid-19 vaccine mandate would either be a misnomer or it would be unprecedented.
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On November 19 2021 23:01 Magic Powers wrote:
As everyone here knows I'm a big supporter of the covid vaccines (despite very much disliking the side effects), mainly Pfizer and Moderna. The vaccine mandate for the general public however is something I strongly oppose. Out of protest, and until the vaccine mandate is lifted, I will not encourage any more people to get vaccinated. In fact I'm considering joining a protest or two if this mandate isn't being lifted in the coming weeks or months (I'm hoping the people in power come to their senses). I will get a third dose for myself when it's time, but that's entirely a personal choice unrelated to the mandate, as I would've gotten it anyway.
No government should ever have the power to do this. This is a more important cause than ending the pandemic and saving lives in the present time. Recorded history shows why it's more important. There's a difference between mandating vaccines for healthcare professionals or for the general public. There's a difference between mandating masks for the general public or mandating vaccines for the general public. These things cannot be equated. Good intentions or not, this line should not be crossed.
I'm appalled by the absolute incompetence of my government. THEY failed us, the people didn't fail us. THEY could've protected us from this virus, and THEY failed to do that. I've always said (and I still strongly believe this) that betting everything on lockdowns and vaccines is the wrong approach.
There tends to be a link to the style of government, where "the more authoritarian the government, the more likely it is to have vaccination mandates".
And it can't get more authoritarian than a general vaccine mandate.
I will admit, I may well have been willfully blind. Maybe my government was always more authoritarian than I knew. But then I only find it all the more important to fight back against this mandate. I strictly do not wish to live under an authoritarian regime that has the power and the will to go this far.
If you live in what you think is a free country (or has been up until now), you should fight back against this, regardless of your stance on the covid vaccines.
Plenty of countries have mandatory vaccines for a number of diseases. Hardly controversial...
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On November 20 2021 02:43 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2021 23:01 Magic Powers wrote:
As everyone here knows I'm a big supporter of the covid vaccines (despite very much disliking the side effects), mainly Pfizer and Moderna. The vaccine mandate for the general public however is something I strongly oppose. Out of protest, and until the vaccine mandate is lifted, I will not encourage any more people to get vaccinated. In fact I'm considering joining a protest or two if this mandate isn't being lifted in the coming weeks or months (I'm hoping the people in power come to their senses). I will get a third dose for myself when it's time, but that's entirely a personal choice unrelated to the mandate, as I would've gotten it anyway.
No government should ever have the power to do this. This is a more important cause than ending the pandemic and saving lives in the present time. Recorded history shows why it's more important. There's a difference between mandating vaccines for healthcare professionals or for the general public. There's a difference between mandating masks for the general public or mandating vaccines for the general public. These things cannot be equated. Good intentions or not, this line should not be crossed.
I'm appalled by the absolute incompetence of my government. THEY failed us, the people didn't fail us. THEY could've protected us from this virus, and THEY failed to do that. I've always said (and I still strongly believe this) that betting everything on lockdowns and vaccines is the wrong approach.
There tends to be a link to the style of government, where "the more authoritarian the government, the more likely it is to have vaccination mandates".
And it can't get more authoritarian than a general vaccine mandate.
I will admit, I may well have been willfully blind. Maybe my government was always more authoritarian than I knew. But then I only find it all the more important to fight back against this mandate. I strictly do not wish to live under an authoritarian regime that has the power and the will to go this far.
If you live in what you think is a free country (or has been up until now), you should fight back against this, regardless of your stance on the covid vaccines. Plenty of countries have mandatory vaccines for a number of diseases. Hardly controversial...
You have to be injected with something just to exist in a country or else you go to jail. How is this not the chinese model?
"Hardly controversial"
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On November 20 2021 02:51 teeel141 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2021 02:43 maybenexttime wrote:On November 19 2021 23:01 Magic Powers wrote:
As everyone here knows I'm a big supporter of the covid vaccines (despite very much disliking the side effects), mainly Pfizer and Moderna. The vaccine mandate for the general public however is something I strongly oppose. Out of protest, and until the vaccine mandate is lifted, I will not encourage any more people to get vaccinated. In fact I'm considering joining a protest or two if this mandate isn't being lifted in the coming weeks or months (I'm hoping the people in power come to their senses). I will get a third dose for myself when it's time, but that's entirely a personal choice unrelated to the mandate, as I would've gotten it anyway.
No government should ever have the power to do this. This is a more important cause than ending the pandemic and saving lives in the present time. Recorded history shows why it's more important. There's a difference between mandating vaccines for healthcare professionals or for the general public. There's a difference between mandating masks for the general public or mandating vaccines for the general public. These things cannot be equated. Good intentions or not, this line should not be crossed.
I'm appalled by the absolute incompetence of my government. THEY failed us, the people didn't fail us. THEY could've protected us from this virus, and THEY failed to do that. I've always said (and I still strongly believe this) that betting everything on lockdowns and vaccines is the wrong approach.
There tends to be a link to the style of government, where "the more authoritarian the government, the more likely it is to have vaccination mandates".
And it can't get more authoritarian than a general vaccine mandate.
I will admit, I may well have been willfully blind. Maybe my government was always more authoritarian than I knew. But then I only find it all the more important to fight back against this mandate. I strictly do not wish to live under an authoritarian regime that has the power and the will to go this far.
If you live in what you think is a free country (or has been up until now), you should fight back against this, regardless of your stance on the covid vaccines. Plenty of countries have mandatory vaccines for a number of diseases. Hardly controversial... You have to be injected with something just to exist in a country or else you go to jail. How is this not the chinese model? "Hardly controversial"
Alternatively, you can keep paying the fines or just stop being a dickhead and sabotaging the rest of the country. We've been trying to reason with those people for a year, but, ironically, they're immune to that.
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On November 20 2021 02:43 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2021 23:01 Magic Powers wrote:
As everyone here knows I'm a big supporter of the covid vaccines (despite very much disliking the side effects), mainly Pfizer and Moderna. The vaccine mandate for the general public however is something I strongly oppose. Out of protest, and until the vaccine mandate is lifted, I will not encourage any more people to get vaccinated. In fact I'm considering joining a protest or two if this mandate isn't being lifted in the coming weeks or months (I'm hoping the people in power come to their senses). I will get a third dose for myself when it's time, but that's entirely a personal choice unrelated to the mandate, as I would've gotten it anyway.
No government should ever have the power to do this. This is a more important cause than ending the pandemic and saving lives in the present time. Recorded history shows why it's more important. There's a difference between mandating vaccines for healthcare professionals or for the general public. There's a difference between mandating masks for the general public or mandating vaccines for the general public. These things cannot be equated. Good intentions or not, this line should not be crossed.
I'm appalled by the absolute incompetence of my government. THEY failed us, the people didn't fail us. THEY could've protected us from this virus, and THEY failed to do that. I've always said (and I still strongly believe this) that betting everything on lockdowns and vaccines is the wrong approach.
There tends to be a link to the style of government, where "the more authoritarian the government, the more likely it is to have vaccination mandates".
And it can't get more authoritarian than a general vaccine mandate.
I will admit, I may well have been willfully blind. Maybe my government was always more authoritarian than I knew. But then I only find it all the more important to fight back against this mandate. I strictly do not wish to live under an authoritarian regime that has the power and the will to go this far.
If you live in what you think is a free country (or has been up until now), you should fight back against this, regardless of your stance on the covid vaccines. Plenty of countries have mandatory vaccines for a number of diseases. Hardly controversial...
We're having a discussion about this right here right now. How is that not controversial? Not many things are more divisive than this. It's an issue that unites me as a pro-vaxxer with a large number of anti-vaxxers, that's how controversial it is.
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On November 20 2021 02:55 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2021 02:43 maybenexttime wrote:On November 19 2021 23:01 Magic Powers wrote:
As everyone here knows I'm a big supporter of the covid vaccines (despite very much disliking the side effects), mainly Pfizer and Moderna. The vaccine mandate for the general public however is something I strongly oppose. Out of protest, and until the vaccine mandate is lifted, I will not encourage any more people to get vaccinated. In fact I'm considering joining a protest or two if this mandate isn't being lifted in the coming weeks or months (I'm hoping the people in power come to their senses). I will get a third dose for myself when it's time, but that's entirely a personal choice unrelated to the mandate, as I would've gotten it anyway.
No government should ever have the power to do this. This is a more important cause than ending the pandemic and saving lives in the present time. Recorded history shows why it's more important. There's a difference between mandating vaccines for healthcare professionals or for the general public. There's a difference between mandating masks for the general public or mandating vaccines for the general public. These things cannot be equated. Good intentions or not, this line should not be crossed.
I'm appalled by the absolute incompetence of my government. THEY failed us, the people didn't fail us. THEY could've protected us from this virus, and THEY failed to do that. I've always said (and I still strongly believe this) that betting everything on lockdowns and vaccines is the wrong approach.
There tends to be a link to the style of government, where "the more authoritarian the government, the more likely it is to have vaccination mandates".
And it can't get more authoritarian than a general vaccine mandate.
I will admit, I may well have been willfully blind. Maybe my government was always more authoritarian than I knew. But then I only find it all the more important to fight back against this mandate. I strictly do not wish to live under an authoritarian regime that has the power and the will to go this far.
If you live in what you think is a free country (or has been up until now), you should fight back against this, regardless of your stance on the covid vaccines. Plenty of countries have mandatory vaccines for a number of diseases. Hardly controversial... We're having a discussion about this right here right now. How is that not controversial? Not many things are more divisive than this. It's an issue that unites me as a pro-vaxxer with a large number of anti-vaxxers, that's how controversial it is.
Other members provided a whole list of democratic countries that have general vaccine mandates. It really is not controversial. It's not a slippery slope into authoritarianism. No more than requiring people to wear seat belts.
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On November 20 2021 02:57 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2021 02:55 Magic Powers wrote:On November 20 2021 02:43 maybenexttime wrote:On November 19 2021 23:01 Magic Powers wrote:
As everyone here knows I'm a big supporter of the covid vaccines (despite very much disliking the side effects), mainly Pfizer and Moderna. The vaccine mandate for the general public however is something I strongly oppose. Out of protest, and until the vaccine mandate is lifted, I will not encourage any more people to get vaccinated. In fact I'm considering joining a protest or two if this mandate isn't being lifted in the coming weeks or months (I'm hoping the people in power come to their senses). I will get a third dose for myself when it's time, but that's entirely a personal choice unrelated to the mandate, as I would've gotten it anyway.
No government should ever have the power to do this. This is a more important cause than ending the pandemic and saving lives in the present time. Recorded history shows why it's more important. There's a difference between mandating vaccines for healthcare professionals or for the general public. There's a difference between mandating masks for the general public or mandating vaccines for the general public. These things cannot be equated. Good intentions or not, this line should not be crossed.
I'm appalled by the absolute incompetence of my government. THEY failed us, the people didn't fail us. THEY could've protected us from this virus, and THEY failed to do that. I've always said (and I still strongly believe this) that betting everything on lockdowns and vaccines is the wrong approach.
There tends to be a link to the style of government, where "the more authoritarian the government, the more likely it is to have vaccination mandates".
And it can't get more authoritarian than a general vaccine mandate.
I will admit, I may well have been willfully blind. Maybe my government was always more authoritarian than I knew. But then I only find it all the more important to fight back against this mandate. I strictly do not wish to live under an authoritarian regime that has the power and the will to go this far.
If you live in what you think is a free country (or has been up until now), you should fight back against this, regardless of your stance on the covid vaccines. Plenty of countries have mandatory vaccines for a number of diseases. Hardly controversial... We're having a discussion about this right here right now. How is that not controversial? Not many things are more divisive than this. It's an issue that unites me as a pro-vaxxer with a large number of anti-vaxxers, that's how controversial it is. Other members provided a whole list of democratic countries that have general vaccine mandates. It really is not controversial. It's not a slippery slope into authoritarianism. No more than requiring people to wear seat belts.
Those countries don't have general vaccine mandates, as I explained in a previous comment.
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EPT
