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On November 20 2021 02:20 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2021 02:03 ggrrg wrote:On November 20 2021 01:12 LegalLord wrote:On November 19 2021 23:18 Sbrubbles wrote:
I don't see how this means "democracy is over". These are actions taken by democratically elected governments, they're not targeted against one specific class/ethnicity/nationality, they don't interfere with future elections, they don't set up undemocratic bodies, they don't tip the cards in favor of a specific political party.
I have no problem with vaccination mandares, so long as they don't involve:
A) Force (aka, physically forcing people to vaccinate)
B) Denial of public health services
C) Denial of resources (food for homeless, for example) to the absolute poorest Hoping for some democratically elected governments issuing some democratically elected prison sentences to those who don't comply with the mandate. That'll show 'em. Having a general mandate is absolutely a slippery slope into disastrous consequences. Some people may see it as worth it - seems like there's nothing some people wouldn't sacrifice if it promises more safety from the pandemic. But calling it democratic with a contrived list of (not entirely accurate) justifying circumstances is quite disingenuous. Without commenting on the merits of a covid vaccine mandate, I'd say that expecting "disastrous consequenes" is overly dramatic and point out that if it is a slippery slope, then Austria is joining on the tail end of the slope (or more like on its n-th ride). Currently, the following European countries have general (non-covid) vaccine madates: Belgium, France, Italy, Czech Republic, Hungary. Additionally, non-covid vaccine madates exist in Greece, Croatia, Latvia, Malta, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia (not sure if those are apply to all citizens, though, and cannot be bothered to investigate further) Not to mention than historically, vaccine mandates have existed in many countries for extended periods of time. In what is now (West-)Germany, there have been vaccine mandates from 1807 till 1983 and again since 2019 (measles). + Show Spoiler +On top of that, I am pretty sure that the entire Eastern block used to have vaccine mandates during communist times. I guess, these countries in that particular period of time would not be counted as "free" by some people in here, but the point is: The world did not go under. A slippery slope into disastrous consequences. That is, not that it will directly cause them, but it certainly would trend in that direction. And the differences between general mandates for vaccines (e.g. polio, tetanus) under the standard conditions they are applied, and the ones for corvid vaccines, are significant. The way the latter have to be applied, in the middle of a crisis, is absolutely quite different from the way the former are applied, with slow-burning consequences under non-crisis conditions. All this is not to say that people shouldn't get vaccinated - they absolutely should, and should be encouraged to - just that the circumstances under which mandates must happen to be of effect within the timeframe of the current crisis are deeply problematic and by necessity authoritarian in nature. And that is very much a slippery slope into disastrous consequences. The East European countries have a pretty strong trend of antivax in them, and a lot of people blame decades of strong vaccine mandates. For whatever that's worth.
The only difference between vaccine mandates you mention are the surrounding circumstances (crisis vs no crisis), but I am not aware of any difference in the way vaccine mandates are implemented (mandatory for everyone, fines for ignoring them). Please elaborate on how a covid vaccine mandate is a slippery slope while measles, hep B, or meningococcus vaccine mandates are not.
Also, I absolutely do not see how a covid vaccine mandate is more authoritarian in nature than a vaccine against any other kind of disease.
As somebody who was born in a Eastern European country in the wake of communism and has spent a considerable portion of his life there, I strongly disagree with the notion that former vaccine mandates are in any way responsible for antivax sentiments in the former Eastern Block. Inbetween oppresion of any ideological opposition, constant party propaganda inclusively regular mandatory participation, inability to earn a decent wage, nearly no perspective for improving one's social position, arbitrary harrassment and imprisonment, fines and other punishments for trivialities such as listening to the wrong kind of music, having talked to anyone marked as an ideological enemy by the secret service, or dressing/looking in a rebellious manner, a couple of life-saving injections for little children have at best been an "issue" that paled into complete irrelevance in comparison to the day-to-day oppression experienced by most citizens.
Important contributing factors to antivax sentiments in Eastern Europe are a deep-seated distrust in the government seeing how most countries went from an oppresive communist regime into a decade or so of full-blown cleptocracy, as well as a strong distrust towards any media outlets given that communist media was pure propaganda and it successor were media outlets created by the strong oligarchs of the day, which were mostly concerned with "reporting" whatever would give them any political power in the new political landscape.
EDIT:
On November 20 2021 03:01 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2021 02:57 maybenexttime wrote:On November 20 2021 02:55 Magic Powers wrote:On November 20 2021 02:43 maybenexttime wrote:On November 19 2021 23:01 Magic Powers wrote:
As everyone here knows I'm a big supporter of the covid vaccines (despite very much disliking the side effects), mainly Pfizer and Moderna. The vaccine mandate for the general public however is something I strongly oppose. Out of protest, and until the vaccine mandate is lifted, I will not encourage any more people to get vaccinated. In fact I'm considering joining a protest or two if this mandate isn't being lifted in the coming weeks or months (I'm hoping the people in power come to their senses). I will get a third dose for myself when it's time, but that's entirely a personal choice unrelated to the mandate, as I would've gotten it anyway.
No government should ever have the power to do this. This is a more important cause than ending the pandemic and saving lives in the present time. Recorded history shows why it's more important. There's a difference between mandating vaccines for healthcare professionals or for the general public. There's a difference between mandating masks for the general public or mandating vaccines for the general public. These things cannot be equated. Good intentions or not, this line should not be crossed.
I'm appalled by the absolute incompetence of my government. THEY failed us, the people didn't fail us. THEY could've protected us from this virus, and THEY failed to do that. I've always said (and I still strongly believe this) that betting everything on lockdowns and vaccines is the wrong approach.
There tends to be a link to the style of government, where "the more authoritarian the government, the more likely it is to have vaccination mandates".
And it can't get more authoritarian than a general vaccine mandate.
I will admit, I may well have been willfully blind. Maybe my government was always more authoritarian than I knew. But then I only find it all the more important to fight back against this mandate. I strictly do not wish to live under an authoritarian regime that has the power and the will to go this far.
If you live in what you think is a free country (or has been up until now), you should fight back against this, regardless of your stance on the covid vaccines. Plenty of countries have mandatory vaccines for a number of diseases. Hardly controversial... We're having a discussion about this right here right now. How is that not controversial? Not many things are more divisive than this. It's an issue that unites me as a pro-vaxxer with a large number of anti-vaxxers, that's how controversial it is. Other members provided a whole list of democratic countries that have general vaccine mandates. It really is not controversial. It's not a slippery slope into authoritarianism. No more than requiring people to wear seat belts. Those countries don't have general vaccine mandates, as I explained in a previous comment.
Maybe, you should first elaborate on what you call a "general" vaccine mandate before continuing this discussion.
The general covid-19 vaccine mandate in Austria is unprecedented. The mandates were always specific, for example for children (smallpox) and specified businesses that were at enhanced risk.
It may be unprecedented for Austria. It certainly is not unprecedented for large areas of Europe.
Saying that a smallpox vaccine mandate is "specific" to children and contrasting this with the new covid vaccine mandate seems ill-conceived. Considering that every adult has at one point in time been a child, it neccessarily means that such a smallpox vaccine would have been mandatory for everybody (possibly excluding grown-up immigrants if not legislated otherwise).
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On November 20 2021 03:01 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2021 02:57 maybenexttime wrote:On November 20 2021 02:55 Magic Powers wrote:On November 20 2021 02:43 maybenexttime wrote:On November 19 2021 23:01 Magic Powers wrote:
As everyone here knows I'm a big supporter of the covid vaccines (despite very much disliking the side effects), mainly Pfizer and Moderna. The vaccine mandate for the general public however is something I strongly oppose. Out of protest, and until the vaccine mandate is lifted, I will not encourage any more people to get vaccinated. In fact I'm considering joining a protest or two if this mandate isn't being lifted in the coming weeks or months (I'm hoping the people in power come to their senses). I will get a third dose for myself when it's time, but that's entirely a personal choice unrelated to the mandate, as I would've gotten it anyway.
No government should ever have the power to do this. This is a more important cause than ending the pandemic and saving lives in the present time. Recorded history shows why it's more important. There's a difference between mandating vaccines for healthcare professionals or for the general public. There's a difference between mandating masks for the general public or mandating vaccines for the general public. These things cannot be equated. Good intentions or not, this line should not be crossed.
I'm appalled by the absolute incompetence of my government. THEY failed us, the people didn't fail us. THEY could've protected us from this virus, and THEY failed to do that. I've always said (and I still strongly believe this) that betting everything on lockdowns and vaccines is the wrong approach.
There tends to be a link to the style of government, where "the more authoritarian the government, the more likely it is to have vaccination mandates".
And it can't get more authoritarian than a general vaccine mandate.
I will admit, I may well have been willfully blind. Maybe my government was always more authoritarian than I knew. But then I only find it all the more important to fight back against this mandate. I strictly do not wish to live under an authoritarian regime that has the power and the will to go this far.
If you live in what you think is a free country (or has been up until now), you should fight back against this, regardless of your stance on the covid vaccines. Plenty of countries have mandatory vaccines for a number of diseases. Hardly controversial... We're having a discussion about this right here right now. How is that not controversial? Not many things are more divisive than this. It's an issue that unites me as a pro-vaxxer with a large number of anti-vaxxers, that's how controversial it is. Other members provided a whole list of democratic countries that have general vaccine mandates. It really is not controversial. It's not a slippery slope into authoritarianism. No more than requiring people to wear seat belts. Those countries don't have general vaccine mandates, as I explained in a previous comment.
They do. Most people just happen to get all the required jabs when they're children.
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On November 20 2021 03:04 ggrrg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2021 02:20 LegalLord wrote:On November 20 2021 02:03 ggrrg wrote:On November 20 2021 01:12 LegalLord wrote:On November 19 2021 23:18 Sbrubbles wrote:
I don't see how this means "democracy is over". These are actions taken by democratically elected governments, they're not targeted against one specific class/ethnicity/nationality, they don't interfere with future elections, they don't set up undemocratic bodies, they don't tip the cards in favor of a specific political party.
I have no problem with vaccination mandares, so long as they don't involve:
A) Force (aka, physically forcing people to vaccinate)
B) Denial of public health services
C) Denial of resources (food for homeless, for example) to the absolute poorest Hoping for some democratically elected governments issuing some democratically elected prison sentences to those who don't comply with the mandate. That'll show 'em. Having a general mandate is absolutely a slippery slope into disastrous consequences. Some people may see it as worth it - seems like there's nothing some people wouldn't sacrifice if it promises more safety from the pandemic. But calling it democratic with a contrived list of (not entirely accurate) justifying circumstances is quite disingenuous. Without commenting on the merits of a covid vaccine mandate, I'd say that expecting "disastrous consequenes" is overly dramatic and point out that if it is a slippery slope, then Austria is joining on the tail end of the slope (or more like on its n-th ride). Currently, the following European countries have general (non-covid) vaccine madates: Belgium, France, Italy, Czech Republic, Hungary. Additionally, non-covid vaccine madates exist in Greece, Croatia, Latvia, Malta, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia (not sure if those are apply to all citizens, though, and cannot be bothered to investigate further) Not to mention than historically, vaccine mandates have existed in many countries for extended periods of time. In what is now (West-)Germany, there have been vaccine mandates from 1807 till 1983 and again since 2019 (measles). + Show Spoiler +On top of that, I am pretty sure that the entire Eastern block used to have vaccine mandates during communist times. I guess, these countries in that particular period of time would not be counted as "free" by some people in here, but the point is: The world did not go under. A slippery slope into disastrous consequences. That is, not that it will directly cause them, but it certainly would trend in that direction. And the differences between general mandates for vaccines (e.g. polio, tetanus) under the standard conditions they are applied, and the ones for corvid vaccines, are significant. The way the latter have to be applied, in the middle of a crisis, is absolutely quite different from the way the former are applied, with slow-burning consequences under non-crisis conditions. All this is not to say that people shouldn't get vaccinated - they absolutely should, and should be encouraged to - just that the circumstances under which mandates must happen to be of effect within the timeframe of the current crisis are deeply problematic and by necessity authoritarian in nature. And that is very much a slippery slope into disastrous consequences. The East European countries have a pretty strong trend of antivax in them, and a lot of people blame decades of strong vaccine mandates. For whatever that's worth. The only difference between vaccine mandates you mention are the surrounding circumstances (crisis vs no crisis), but I am not aware of any difference in the way vaccine mandates are implemented (mandatory for everyone, fines for ignoring them). Please elaborate on how a covid vaccine mandate is a slippery slope while measles, hep B, or meningococcus vaccine mandates are not. Also, I absolutely do not see how a covid vaccine mandate is more authoritarian in nature than a vaccine against any other kind of disease. As somebody who was born in a Eastern European country in the wake of communism and has spent a considerable portion of his life there, I strongly disagree with the notion that former vaccine mandates are in any way responsible for antivax sentiments in the former Eastern Block. Inbetween oppresion of any ideological opposition, constant party propaganda inclusively regular mandatory participation, inability to earn a decent wage, nearly no perspective for improving one's social position, arbitrary harrassment and imprisonment, fines and other punishments for trivialities such as listening to the wrong kind of music, having talked to anyone marked as an ideological enemy by the secret service, or dressing/looking in a rebellious manner, a couple of life-saving injections for little children have at best been an "issue" that paled into complete irrelevance in comparison to the day-to-day oppression experienced by most citizens. Important contributing factors to antivax sentiments in Eastern Europe are a deep-seated distrust in the government seeing how most countries went from an oppresive communist regime into a decade or so of full-blown cleptocracy, as well as a strong distrust towards any media outlets given that communist media was pure propaganda and it successor were media outlets created by the strong oligarchs of the day, which were mostly concerned with "reporting" whatever would give them any political power in the new political landscape. EDIT: Show nested quote +On November 20 2021 03:01 Magic Powers wrote:On November 20 2021 02:57 maybenexttime wrote:On November 20 2021 02:55 Magic Powers wrote:On November 20 2021 02:43 maybenexttime wrote:On November 19 2021 23:01 Magic Powers wrote:
As everyone here knows I'm a big supporter of the covid vaccines (despite very much disliking the side effects), mainly Pfizer and Moderna. The vaccine mandate for the general public however is something I strongly oppose. Out of protest, and until the vaccine mandate is lifted, I will not encourage any more people to get vaccinated. In fact I'm considering joining a protest or two if this mandate isn't being lifted in the coming weeks or months (I'm hoping the people in power come to their senses). I will get a third dose for myself when it's time, but that's entirely a personal choice unrelated to the mandate, as I would've gotten it anyway.
No government should ever have the power to do this. This is a more important cause than ending the pandemic and saving lives in the present time. Recorded history shows why it's more important. There's a difference between mandating vaccines for healthcare professionals or for the general public. There's a difference between mandating masks for the general public or mandating vaccines for the general public. These things cannot be equated. Good intentions or not, this line should not be crossed.
I'm appalled by the absolute incompetence of my government. THEY failed us, the people didn't fail us. THEY could've protected us from this virus, and THEY failed to do that. I've always said (and I still strongly believe this) that betting everything on lockdowns and vaccines is the wrong approach.
There tends to be a link to the style of government, where "the more authoritarian the government, the more likely it is to have vaccination mandates".
And it can't get more authoritarian than a general vaccine mandate.
I will admit, I may well have been willfully blind. Maybe my government was always more authoritarian than I knew. But then I only find it all the more important to fight back against this mandate. I strictly do not wish to live under an authoritarian regime that has the power and the will to go this far.
If you live in what you think is a free country (or has been up until now), you should fight back against this, regardless of your stance on the covid vaccines. Plenty of countries have mandatory vaccines for a number of diseases. Hardly controversial... We're having a discussion about this right here right now. How is that not controversial? Not many things are more divisive than this. It's an issue that unites me as a pro-vaxxer with a large number of anti-vaxxers, that's how controversial it is. Other members provided a whole list of democratic countries that have general vaccine mandates. It really is not controversial. It's not a slippery slope into authoritarianism. No more than requiring people to wear seat belts. Those countries don't have general vaccine mandates, as I explained in a previous comment. Maybe, you should first elaborate on what you call a "general" vaccine mandate before continuing this discussion. Show nested quote +The general covid-19 vaccine mandate in Austria is unprecedented. The mandates were always specific, for example for children (smallpox) and specified businesses that were at enhanced risk. It may be unprecedented for Austria. It certainly is not unprecedented for large areas of Europe. Saying that a smallpox vaccine mandate is "specific" to children and contrasting this with the new covid vaccine mandate seems ill-conceived. Considering that every adult has at one point in time been a child, it neccessarily means that such a smallpox vaccine would have been mandatory for everybody (possibly excluding grown-up immigrants if not legislated otherwise).
A general vaccine mandate would also be unprecedented in Germany, and they don't have a legal basis for it. I don't know about other European countries, I'm not aware of any that have had it, but maybe there are one or two. Feel free to point them out, but that won't change my stance on it. I consider it unacceptable.
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On November 20 2021 03:31 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2021 03:01 Magic Powers wrote:On November 20 2021 02:57 maybenexttime wrote:On November 20 2021 02:55 Magic Powers wrote:On November 20 2021 02:43 maybenexttime wrote:On November 19 2021 23:01 Magic Powers wrote:
As everyone here knows I'm a big supporter of the covid vaccines (despite very much disliking the side effects), mainly Pfizer and Moderna. The vaccine mandate for the general public however is something I strongly oppose. Out of protest, and until the vaccine mandate is lifted, I will not encourage any more people to get vaccinated. In fact I'm considering joining a protest or two if this mandate isn't being lifted in the coming weeks or months (I'm hoping the people in power come to their senses). I will get a third dose for myself when it's time, but that's entirely a personal choice unrelated to the mandate, as I would've gotten it anyway.
No government should ever have the power to do this. This is a more important cause than ending the pandemic and saving lives in the present time. Recorded history shows why it's more important. There's a difference between mandating vaccines for healthcare professionals or for the general public. There's a difference between mandating masks for the general public or mandating vaccines for the general public. These things cannot be equated. Good intentions or not, this line should not be crossed.
I'm appalled by the absolute incompetence of my government. THEY failed us, the people didn't fail us. THEY could've protected us from this virus, and THEY failed to do that. I've always said (and I still strongly believe this) that betting everything on lockdowns and vaccines is the wrong approach.
There tends to be a link to the style of government, where "the more authoritarian the government, the more likely it is to have vaccination mandates".
And it can't get more authoritarian than a general vaccine mandate.
I will admit, I may well have been willfully blind. Maybe my government was always more authoritarian than I knew. But then I only find it all the more important to fight back against this mandate. I strictly do not wish to live under an authoritarian regime that has the power and the will to go this far.
If you live in what you think is a free country (or has been up until now), you should fight back against this, regardless of your stance on the covid vaccines. Plenty of countries have mandatory vaccines for a number of diseases. Hardly controversial... We're having a discussion about this right here right now. How is that not controversial? Not many things are more divisive than this. It's an issue that unites me as a pro-vaxxer with a large number of anti-vaxxers, that's how controversial it is. Other members provided a whole list of democratic countries that have general vaccine mandates. It really is not controversial. It's not a slippery slope into authoritarianism. No more than requiring people to wear seat belts. Those countries don't have general vaccine mandates, as I explained in a previous comment. They do. Most people just happen to get all the required jabs when they're children.
There's a difference between a specific vaccine mandate and a general vaccine mandate. Am I making myself clear?
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On November 20 2021 03:35 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2021 03:31 maybenexttime wrote:On November 20 2021 03:01 Magic Powers wrote:On November 20 2021 02:57 maybenexttime wrote:On November 20 2021 02:55 Magic Powers wrote:On November 20 2021 02:43 maybenexttime wrote:On November 19 2021 23:01 Magic Powers wrote:
As everyone here knows I'm a big supporter of the covid vaccines (despite very much disliking the side effects), mainly Pfizer and Moderna. The vaccine mandate for the general public however is something I strongly oppose. Out of protest, and until the vaccine mandate is lifted, I will not encourage any more people to get vaccinated. In fact I'm considering joining a protest or two if this mandate isn't being lifted in the coming weeks or months (I'm hoping the people in power come to their senses). I will get a third dose for myself when it's time, but that's entirely a personal choice unrelated to the mandate, as I would've gotten it anyway.
No government should ever have the power to do this. This is a more important cause than ending the pandemic and saving lives in the present time. Recorded history shows why it's more important. There's a difference between mandating vaccines for healthcare professionals or for the general public. There's a difference between mandating masks for the general public or mandating vaccines for the general public. These things cannot be equated. Good intentions or not, this line should not be crossed.
I'm appalled by the absolute incompetence of my government. THEY failed us, the people didn't fail us. THEY could've protected us from this virus, and THEY failed to do that. I've always said (and I still strongly believe this) that betting everything on lockdowns and vaccines is the wrong approach.
There tends to be a link to the style of government, where "the more authoritarian the government, the more likely it is to have vaccination mandates".
And it can't get more authoritarian than a general vaccine mandate.
I will admit, I may well have been willfully blind. Maybe my government was always more authoritarian than I knew. But then I only find it all the more important to fight back against this mandate. I strictly do not wish to live under an authoritarian regime that has the power and the will to go this far.
If you live in what you think is a free country (or has been up until now), you should fight back against this, regardless of your stance on the covid vaccines. Plenty of countries have mandatory vaccines for a number of diseases. Hardly controversial... We're having a discussion about this right here right now. How is that not controversial? Not many things are more divisive than this. It's an issue that unites me as a pro-vaxxer with a large number of anti-vaxxers, that's how controversial it is. Other members provided a whole list of democratic countries that have general vaccine mandates. It really is not controversial. It's not a slippery slope into authoritarianism. No more than requiring people to wear seat belts. Those countries don't have general vaccine mandates, as I explained in a previous comment. They do. Most people just happen to get all the required jabs when they're children. There's a difference between a specific vaccine mandate and a general vaccine mandate. Am I making myself clear?
No, you are not. Please elaborate on the difference as already requested a few posts above.
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On November 20 2021 03:35 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2021 03:31 maybenexttime wrote:On November 20 2021 03:01 Magic Powers wrote:On November 20 2021 02:57 maybenexttime wrote:On November 20 2021 02:55 Magic Powers wrote:On November 20 2021 02:43 maybenexttime wrote:On November 19 2021 23:01 Magic Powers wrote:
As everyone here knows I'm a big supporter of the covid vaccines (despite very much disliking the side effects), mainly Pfizer and Moderna. The vaccine mandate for the general public however is something I strongly oppose. Out of protest, and until the vaccine mandate is lifted, I will not encourage any more people to get vaccinated. In fact I'm considering joining a protest or two if this mandate isn't being lifted in the coming weeks or months (I'm hoping the people in power come to their senses). I will get a third dose for myself when it's time, but that's entirely a personal choice unrelated to the mandate, as I would've gotten it anyway.
No government should ever have the power to do this. This is a more important cause than ending the pandemic and saving lives in the present time. Recorded history shows why it's more important. There's a difference between mandating vaccines for healthcare professionals or for the general public. There's a difference between mandating masks for the general public or mandating vaccines for the general public. These things cannot be equated. Good intentions or not, this line should not be crossed.
I'm appalled by the absolute incompetence of my government. THEY failed us, the people didn't fail us. THEY could've protected us from this virus, and THEY failed to do that. I've always said (and I still strongly believe this) that betting everything on lockdowns and vaccines is the wrong approach.
There tends to be a link to the style of government, where "the more authoritarian the government, the more likely it is to have vaccination mandates".
And it can't get more authoritarian than a general vaccine mandate.
I will admit, I may well have been willfully blind. Maybe my government was always more authoritarian than I knew. But then I only find it all the more important to fight back against this mandate. I strictly do not wish to live under an authoritarian regime that has the power and the will to go this far.
If you live in what you think is a free country (or has been up until now), you should fight back against this, regardless of your stance on the covid vaccines. Plenty of countries have mandatory vaccines for a number of diseases. Hardly controversial... We're having a discussion about this right here right now. How is that not controversial? Not many things are more divisive than this. It's an issue that unites me as a pro-vaxxer with a large number of anti-vaxxers, that's how controversial it is. Other members provided a whole list of democratic countries that have general vaccine mandates. It really is not controversial. It's not a slippery slope into authoritarianism. No more than requiring people to wear seat belts. Those countries don't have general vaccine mandates, as I explained in a previous comment. They do. Most people just happen to get all the required jabs when they're children. There's a difference between a specific vaccine mandate and a general vaccine mandate. Am I making myself clear? So a vaccine mandate if your younger then 8 (just picking a random child age) is fine, because it is specific?
Does that mean you would be ok with a vaccine mandate for all under 100y old, because that is equally as specific?
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On November 20 2021 03:38 ggrrg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2021 03:35 Magic Powers wrote:On November 20 2021 03:31 maybenexttime wrote:On November 20 2021 03:01 Magic Powers wrote:On November 20 2021 02:57 maybenexttime wrote:On November 20 2021 02:55 Magic Powers wrote:On November 20 2021 02:43 maybenexttime wrote:On November 19 2021 23:01 Magic Powers wrote:
As everyone here knows I'm a big supporter of the covid vaccines (despite very much disliking the side effects), mainly Pfizer and Moderna. The vaccine mandate for the general public however is something I strongly oppose. Out of protest, and until the vaccine mandate is lifted, I will not encourage any more people to get vaccinated. In fact I'm considering joining a protest or two if this mandate isn't being lifted in the coming weeks or months (I'm hoping the people in power come to their senses). I will get a third dose for myself when it's time, but that's entirely a personal choice unrelated to the mandate, as I would've gotten it anyway.
No government should ever have the power to do this. This is a more important cause than ending the pandemic and saving lives in the present time. Recorded history shows why it's more important. There's a difference between mandating vaccines for healthcare professionals or for the general public. There's a difference between mandating masks for the general public or mandating vaccines for the general public. These things cannot be equated. Good intentions or not, this line should not be crossed.
I'm appalled by the absolute incompetence of my government. THEY failed us, the people didn't fail us. THEY could've protected us from this virus, and THEY failed to do that. I've always said (and I still strongly believe this) that betting everything on lockdowns and vaccines is the wrong approach.
There tends to be a link to the style of government, where "the more authoritarian the government, the more likely it is to have vaccination mandates".
And it can't get more authoritarian than a general vaccine mandate.
I will admit, I may well have been willfully blind. Maybe my government was always more authoritarian than I knew. But then I only find it all the more important to fight back against this mandate. I strictly do not wish to live under an authoritarian regime that has the power and the will to go this far.
If you live in what you think is a free country (or has been up until now), you should fight back against this, regardless of your stance on the covid vaccines. Plenty of countries have mandatory vaccines for a number of diseases. Hardly controversial... We're having a discussion about this right here right now. How is that not controversial? Not many things are more divisive than this. It's an issue that unites me as a pro-vaxxer with a large number of anti-vaxxers, that's how controversial it is. Other members provided a whole list of democratic countries that have general vaccine mandates. It really is not controversial. It's not a slippery slope into authoritarianism. No more than requiring people to wear seat belts. Those countries don't have general vaccine mandates, as I explained in a previous comment. They do. Most people just happen to get all the required jabs when they're children. There's a difference between a specific vaccine mandate and a general vaccine mandate. Am I making myself clear? No, you are not. Please elaborate on the difference as already requested a few posts above.
A general vaccine mandate can mean, for example, that no one can run a business unless they and all their employees are vaccinated. Or that certain businesses can't be entered by any paying customers who are unvaccinated. That's how "general" differs from "specific", it's a one-size-fits-all approach with no exceptions. Any and all people breaking those rules will face fines or even jail time. Fines can amount to 1200€ and jail time can amount to 14 days.
Any and all people will essentially be driven into potential bankruptcy (depending on how much they depend on their source of income) or worse, unless they're vaccinated.
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On November 20 2021 03:44 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2021 03:38 ggrrg wrote:On November 20 2021 03:35 Magic Powers wrote:On November 20 2021 03:31 maybenexttime wrote:On November 20 2021 03:01 Magic Powers wrote:On November 20 2021 02:57 maybenexttime wrote:On November 20 2021 02:55 Magic Powers wrote:On November 20 2021 02:43 maybenexttime wrote:On November 19 2021 23:01 Magic Powers wrote:
As everyone here knows I'm a big supporter of the covid vaccines (despite very much disliking the side effects), mainly Pfizer and Moderna. The vaccine mandate for the general public however is something I strongly oppose. Out of protest, and until the vaccine mandate is lifted, I will not encourage any more people to get vaccinated. In fact I'm considering joining a protest or two if this mandate isn't being lifted in the coming weeks or months (I'm hoping the people in power come to their senses). I will get a third dose for myself when it's time, but that's entirely a personal choice unrelated to the mandate, as I would've gotten it anyway.
No government should ever have the power to do this. This is a more important cause than ending the pandemic and saving lives in the present time. Recorded history shows why it's more important. There's a difference between mandating vaccines for healthcare professionals or for the general public. There's a difference between mandating masks for the general public or mandating vaccines for the general public. These things cannot be equated. Good intentions or not, this line should not be crossed.
I'm appalled by the absolute incompetence of my government. THEY failed us, the people didn't fail us. THEY could've protected us from this virus, and THEY failed to do that. I've always said (and I still strongly believe this) that betting everything on lockdowns and vaccines is the wrong approach.
There tends to be a link to the style of government, where "the more authoritarian the government, the more likely it is to have vaccination mandates".
And it can't get more authoritarian than a general vaccine mandate.
I will admit, I may well have been willfully blind. Maybe my government was always more authoritarian than I knew. But then I only find it all the more important to fight back against this mandate. I strictly do not wish to live under an authoritarian regime that has the power and the will to go this far.
If you live in what you think is a free country (or has been up until now), you should fight back against this, regardless of your stance on the covid vaccines. Plenty of countries have mandatory vaccines for a number of diseases. Hardly controversial... We're having a discussion about this right here right now. How is that not controversial? Not many things are more divisive than this. It's an issue that unites me as a pro-vaxxer with a large number of anti-vaxxers, that's how controversial it is. Other members provided a whole list of democratic countries that have general vaccine mandates. It really is not controversial. It's not a slippery slope into authoritarianism. No more than requiring people to wear seat belts. Those countries don't have general vaccine mandates, as I explained in a previous comment. They do. Most people just happen to get all the required jabs when they're children. There's a difference between a specific vaccine mandate and a general vaccine mandate. Am I making myself clear? No, you are not. Please elaborate on the difference as already requested a few posts above. A general vaccine mandate can mean, for example, that no one can run a business unless they and all their employees are vaccinated. Or that certain businesses can't be entered by any paying customers who are unvaccinated. That's how "general" differs from "specific", it's a one-size-fits-all approach with no exceptions. Any and all people breaking those rules will face fines or even jail time. Fines can amount to 1200€ and jail time can amount to 14 days. Any and all people will essentially be driven into potential bankruptcy (depending on how much they depend on their source of income) or worse, unless they're vaccinated.
Thanks, this help clear my confusion. I assumed that "general" simply means "applying to everyone". It feels like you are complaining about the severity of the penalties rather than the scope of people affected. Fair enough. Those are indeed some hefty consequences.
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Its just a bunch of mostly rightwing snowflakes crying about a new rule they don't like for "reasons" that do not make any sense. It is mostly a bunch of entitled people mad that some one is telling what they have to do and they don't WANT to.
Said the fascist.
User was temp banned for this post.
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I second the opinion that communist era vaccine mandates are NOT responsible for vaccine hesitancy in Eastern Europe. Its general distrust of authorities (including the medical ones) that is the problem.
Also, I would like to point out (if it hasn't been done already) that ECHR already confirmed that government indeed has the right to require vaccine and punish those refusing. So, I am expecting the Austrian mandate to be upheld against legal challenges that will be, no doubt, broad against it.
Here is an article about one case: https://www.euronews.com/2021/04/13/how-a-court-ruling-lays-the-ground-for-mandatory-covid-19-vaccination i think there was also another one, earlier from the Netherlands or Belgium.
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On November 20 2021 04:46 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2021 03:44 Magic Powers wrote:On November 20 2021 03:38 ggrrg wrote:On November 20 2021 03:35 Magic Powers wrote:On November 20 2021 03:31 maybenexttime wrote:On November 20 2021 03:01 Magic Powers wrote:On November 20 2021 02:57 maybenexttime wrote:On November 20 2021 02:55 Magic Powers wrote:On November 20 2021 02:43 maybenexttime wrote:On November 19 2021 23:01 Magic Powers wrote:
As everyone here knows I'm a big supporter of the covid vaccines (despite very much disliking the side effects), mainly Pfizer and Moderna. The vaccine mandate for the general public however is something I strongly oppose. Out of protest, and until the vaccine mandate is lifted, I will not encourage any more people to get vaccinated. In fact I'm considering joining a protest or two if this mandate isn't being lifted in the coming weeks or months (I'm hoping the people in power come to their senses). I will get a third dose for myself when it's time, but that's entirely a personal choice unrelated to the mandate, as I would've gotten it anyway.
No government should ever have the power to do this. This is a more important cause than ending the pandemic and saving lives in the present time. Recorded history shows why it's more important. There's a difference between mandating vaccines for healthcare professionals or for the general public. There's a difference between mandating masks for the general public or mandating vaccines for the general public. These things cannot be equated. Good intentions or not, this line should not be crossed.
I'm appalled by the absolute incompetence of my government. THEY failed us, the people didn't fail us. THEY could've protected us from this virus, and THEY failed to do that. I've always said (and I still strongly believe this) that betting everything on lockdowns and vaccines is the wrong approach.
There tends to be a link to the style of government, where "the more authoritarian the government, the more likely it is to have vaccination mandates".
And it can't get more authoritarian than a general vaccine mandate.
I will admit, I may well have been willfully blind. Maybe my government was always more authoritarian than I knew. But then I only find it all the more important to fight back against this mandate. I strictly do not wish to live under an authoritarian regime that has the power and the will to go this far.
If you live in what you think is a free country (or has been up until now), you should fight back against this, regardless of your stance on the covid vaccines. Plenty of countries have mandatory vaccines for a number of diseases. Hardly controversial... We're having a discussion about this right here right now. How is that not controversial? Not many things are more divisive than this. It's an issue that unites me as a pro-vaxxer with a large number of anti-vaxxers, that's how controversial it is. Other members provided a whole list of democratic countries that have general vaccine mandates. It really is not controversial. It's not a slippery slope into authoritarianism. No more than requiring people to wear seat belts. Those countries don't have general vaccine mandates, as I explained in a previous comment. They do. Most people just happen to get all the required jabs when they're children. There's a difference between a specific vaccine mandate and a general vaccine mandate. Am I making myself clear? No, you are not. Please elaborate on the difference as already requested a few posts above. A general vaccine mandate can mean, for example, that no one can run a business unless they and all their employees are vaccinated. Or that certain businesses can't be entered by any paying customers who are unvaccinated. That's how "general" differs from "specific", it's a one-size-fits-all approach with no exceptions. Any and all people breaking those rules will face fines or even jail time. Fines can amount to 1200€ and jail time can amount to 14 days. Any and all people will essentially be driven into potential bankruptcy (depending on how much they depend on their source of income) or worse, unless they're vaccinated. The ones on children are general by that definition. They can't attend public or private school or child care. Which is pretty much everything to children. And there was likely (almost certainly) rules on the adults when it first came out as well.
Children are not the general population, and adults should not be treated like children.
Such rules for adults did not exist before in Austria, not for medical procedures like vaccination. There were specific cases where some higher-risk businesses would be required to vaccinate their employees against smallpox, but it was never a general mandate for all people or all businesses. It just wasn't, and people need to understand this key difference.
People really need to understand that this has never been done before.
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On November 20 2021 05:32 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2021 05:19 Magic Powers wrote:On November 20 2021 04:46 JimmiC wrote:On November 20 2021 03:44 Magic Powers wrote:On November 20 2021 03:38 ggrrg wrote:On November 20 2021 03:35 Magic Powers wrote:On November 20 2021 03:31 maybenexttime wrote:On November 20 2021 03:01 Magic Powers wrote:On November 20 2021 02:57 maybenexttime wrote:On November 20 2021 02:55 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
We're having a discussion about this right here right now. How is that not controversial? Not many things are more divisive than this. It's an issue that unites me as a pro-vaxxer with a large number of anti-vaxxers, that's how controversial it is. Other members provided a whole list of democratic countries that have general vaccine mandates. It really is not controversial. It's not a slippery slope into authoritarianism. No more than requiring people to wear seat belts. Those countries don't have general vaccine mandates, as I explained in a previous comment. They do. Most people just happen to get all the required jabs when they're children. There's a difference between a specific vaccine mandate and a general vaccine mandate. Am I making myself clear? No, you are not. Please elaborate on the difference as already requested a few posts above. A general vaccine mandate can mean, for example, that no one can run a business unless they and all their employees are vaccinated. Or that certain businesses can't be entered by any paying customers who are unvaccinated. That's how "general" differs from "specific", it's a one-size-fits-all approach with no exceptions. Any and all people breaking those rules will face fines or even jail time. Fines can amount to 1200€ and jail time can amount to 14 days. Any and all people will essentially be driven into potential bankruptcy (depending on how much they depend on their source of income) or worse, unless they're vaccinated. The ones on children are general by that definition. They can't attend public or private school or child care. Which is pretty much everything to children. And there was likely (almost certainly) rules on the adults when it first came out as well. Children are not the general population, and adults should not be treated like children. Such rules for adults did not exist before in Austria, not for medical procedures like vaccination. There were specific cases where some higher-risk businesses would be required to vaccinate their employees against smallpox, but it was never a general mandate for all people or all businesses. It just wasn't, and people need to understand this key difference. People really need to understand that this has never been done before. It appears they did. Show nested quote +Mandatory vaccination is not unprecedented in Austria. In 1948 the postwar government made vaccination against smallpox compulsory by law. In 1980 the World Health Organization declared smallpox the first disease to have been defeated through vaccination. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/19/austria-plans-compulsory-covid-vaccination-for-all?fbclid=IwAR0G8vxPHYAKg7BCdxIK8m-ngdF1DZ3eHbg7ZZcGsLWZHU_Xkg5ncmb5Lic
I don't know why I have to keep repeating myself: general vaccine mandates have never been done before in Austria. I've explained sufficiently what the difference is and why it matters.
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On November 20 2021 05:42 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2021 05:34 Magic Powers wrote:On November 20 2021 05:32 JimmiC wrote:On November 20 2021 05:19 Magic Powers wrote:On November 20 2021 04:46 JimmiC wrote:On November 20 2021 03:44 Magic Powers wrote:On November 20 2021 03:38 ggrrg wrote:On November 20 2021 03:35 Magic Powers wrote:On November 20 2021 03:31 maybenexttime wrote:On November 20 2021 03:01 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
Those countries don't have general vaccine mandates, as I explained in a previous comment. They do. Most people just happen to get all the required jabs when they're children. There's a difference between a specific vaccine mandate and a general vaccine mandate. Am I making myself clear? No, you are not. Please elaborate on the difference as already requested a few posts above. A general vaccine mandate can mean, for example, that no one can run a business unless they and all their employees are vaccinated. Or that certain businesses can't be entered by any paying customers who are unvaccinated. That's how "general" differs from "specific", it's a one-size-fits-all approach with no exceptions. Any and all people breaking those rules will face fines or even jail time. Fines can amount to 1200€ and jail time can amount to 14 days. Any and all people will essentially be driven into potential bankruptcy (depending on how much they depend on their source of income) or worse, unless they're vaccinated. The ones on children are general by that definition. They can't attend public or private school or child care. Which is pretty much everything to children. And there was likely (almost certainly) rules on the adults when it first came out as well. Children are not the general population, and adults should not be treated like children. Such rules for adults did not exist before in Austria, not for medical procedures like vaccination. There were specific cases where some higher-risk businesses would be required to vaccinate their employees against smallpox, but it was never a general mandate for all people or all businesses. It just wasn't, and people need to understand this key difference. People really need to understand that this has never been done before. It appears they did. Mandatory vaccination is not unprecedented in Austria. In 1948 the postwar government made vaccination against smallpox compulsory by law. In 1980 the World Health Organization declared smallpox the first disease to have been defeated through vaccination. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/19/austria-plans-compulsory-covid-vaccination-for-all?fbclid=IwAR0G8vxPHYAKg7BCdxIK8m-ngdF1DZ3eHbg7ZZcGsLWZHU_Xkg5ncmb5Lic I don't know why I have to keep repeating myself: general vaccine mandates have never been done before in Austria. I've explained sufficiently what the difference is and why it matters. I'm very confused, what is the difference between making the vaccine compulsory by law, and it be a general mandate? Everyone had to have it then, now they will all have to have it? I don't understand what thread you are pulling on.
"General" means that it applies to everyone, absolutely everyone. No exceptions for anyone.
Adults should have full bodily autonomy. Making a medical procedure mandatory for the general population removes bodily autonomy from adults, not only from children, and not only in specific cases like high-risk businesses, but all people, i.e. all adults, all children, all businesses, in all cases with no exceptions. This is unprecedented.
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In a non-pandemic situation, if you vaccinate all children, after a few years everyone is vaccinated.
In a pandemic situation, you do not have the luxury to wait that long.
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EPT
