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On September 28 2021 05:12 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2021 02:08 Gorsameth wrote:Because they have been told to be worked up about this. They haven't been told to be worked up about the previous required vaccinations. That's the 'wonderful' thing about fabricated outrage, it doesn't need logical consistency. It's still government encroachment. The government requiring vaccines for public schools is a degree removed from the government requiring vaccines to enter private businesses or be employed by them. Which is another degree removed from the government requiring a vaccine to use public roads or have a mortgage, or whatever else they want to do. I don't think it's logically inconsistent to object to government encroachment just because it's done gradually. There is a reason that slippery slope is a logical fallacy.
Also, this is not government encroachment. The government already requires people to be vaccinated for public schools. It already allows businesses to make various health requirements including vaccination.
It is a strange argument because most businesses are asking for rules, and they would prefer them from the government because they want these rules (for a ton of reasons around productivity, customer confidence, expenses, and so on) and they would rather they are universal instead of jurisdictional which is way more effort and expense (so they owuld prefer they be federal rather than state).
The encroachment would be if all the sudden government made rules that businesses could not do this, which has been tried and shut down by conservative courts all over the country because it is opposite to conservative values.
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On September 28 2021 05:33 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2021 05:12 BlackJack wrote:On September 28 2021 02:08 Gorsameth wrote:Because they have been told to be worked up about this. They haven't been told to be worked up about the previous required vaccinations. That's the 'wonderful' thing about fabricated outrage, it doesn't need logical consistency. It's still government encroachment. The government requiring vaccines for public schools is a degree removed from the government requiring vaccines to enter private businesses or be employed by them. Which is another degree removed from the government requiring a vaccine to use public roads or have a mortgage, or whatever else they want to do. I don't think it's logically inconsistent to object to government encroachment just because it's done gradually. Also, this is not government encroachment. The government already requires people to be vaccinated for public schools. It already allows businesses to make various health requirements including vaccination.
It's not government encroachment because businesses were already allowed to ask for vaccination status? Well now it's not the business being allowed to do it, it's the government mandating that the business does it.
Tell me if I'm wrong but I think you knew that super obvious difference when you were writing that sentence? Do you just think so lowly of everyone that you thought it would slip by?
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On September 28 2021 06:25 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2021 05:33 JimmiC wrote:On September 28 2021 05:12 BlackJack wrote:On September 28 2021 02:08 Gorsameth wrote:Because they have been told to be worked up about this. They haven't been told to be worked up about the previous required vaccinations. That's the 'wonderful' thing about fabricated outrage, it doesn't need logical consistency. It's still government encroachment. The government requiring vaccines for public schools is a degree removed from the government requiring vaccines to enter private businesses or be employed by them. Which is another degree removed from the government requiring a vaccine to use public roads or have a mortgage, or whatever else they want to do. I don't think it's logically inconsistent to object to government encroachment just because it's done gradually. Also, this is not government encroachment. The government already requires people to be vaccinated for public schools. It already allows businesses to make various health requirements including vaccination. It's not government encroachment because businesses were already allowed to ask for vaccination status? Well now it's not the business being allowed to do it, it's the government mandating that the business does it. Tell me if I'm wrong but I think you knew that super obvious difference when you were writing that sentence? Do you just think so lowly of everyone that you thought it would slip by? The businesses are asking for it. Notice no uproar from them? Notice all the support from it before hand. All government rules are not bad and business don't want no rules. They don't want unnecessary red tape, which there would be if it was done state by state or company by company. They want an even playing field and things like this they would way rather blame it on the government.
Government has mandated all sorts of things on business this is not a new concept. From safety, to health, to working conditions to any number of things. If you stop listening the the Flynn's of the world you will stop thinking this is a giant conspiracy. You are getting played sir.
edit: "slip by" lol everything is not a a conspiracy.
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If you think it's some kind of nefarious "government encroachment" when it tells people there are public health standards they plan on enforcing, I have bad news for you in that that is both the government's job, and long supported by precedent in various health-focused government organizations. We don't consider it government encroachment when we say that someone's place of business is subject to health and safety inspections, we consider that an important standard.
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On September 28 2021 09:08 NewSunshine wrote: If you think it's some kind of nefarious "government encroachment" when it tells people there are public health standards they plan on enforcing, I have bad news for you in that that is both the government's job, and long supported by precedent in various health-focused government organizations. We don't consider it government encroachment when we say that someone's place of business is subject to health and safety inspections, we consider that an important standard.
The objection is that there is a difference between "employees must wash hands before returning to work" and "employees must be vaccinated before returning to work." It's not "logically inconsistent" to agree with one and not the other. The fact that you're okay with the government implementing some health and safety standards doesn't mean you automatically have to approve of every new health and safety standard. It's not an all-or-nothing where you have to either be okay with vaccine passports or be okay with Typhoid Mary cooking your dinner.
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On September 28 2021 11:52 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2021 09:08 NewSunshine wrote: If you think it's some kind of nefarious "government encroachment" when it tells people there are public health standards they plan on enforcing, I have bad news for you in that that is both the government's job, and long supported by precedent in various health-focused government organizations. We don't consider it government encroachment when we say that someone's place of business is subject to health and safety inspections, we consider that an important standard. The objection is that there is a difference between "employees must wash hands before returning to work" and "employees must be vaccinated before returning to work." It's not "logically inconsistent" to agree with one and not the other. The fact that you're okay with the government implementing some health and safety standards doesn't mean you automatically have to approve of every new health and safety standard. It's not an all-or-nothing where you have to either be okay with vaccine passports or be okay with Typhoid Mary cooking your dinner. Dont worry in 40 years when its been required through the school system, like all the other vaccines already are. Which by the way Desantis, Abott and others are not going after because despite them deciding tgis particular vaccine was good political fooder.
The government has been mandating vaccines in the US since its inception. George washington required it of his troops and it hella dangerous.
https://www.loc.gov/rr/scitech/GW&smallpoxinoculation.html
So you just not being paying attention to this encroachment since before the inception of your country and since. Having large empoyers do it is maybe a step back!
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Conservative media is becoming increasingly antivax. It’s really sad. I don’t know how hey managed to make this political. Sigh.
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Covid passports are coming here in Spain too, for entering discos with 100% capacity. I doubt it is neccesary with that many vaccinated, but it is clearly one of the situations where infections are most likely to happen so whatever.
Spain is clearly taking a much more cautious approach than Norway, even with considerably more people fully vaccinated. We'll see if it makes a difference!
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On September 28 2021 17:34 Slydie wrote: Covid passports are coming here in Spain too, for entering discos with 100% capacity. I doubt it is neccesary with that many vaccinated, but it is clearly one of the situations where infections are most likely to happen so whatever.
Spain is clearly taking a much more cautious approach than Norway, even with considerably more people fully vaccinated. We'll see if it makes a difference! Wasn't Spain hit hard in the first wave? Would make sense for them to be more cautious considering what they went through.
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been giving this corona situation some thought and ive come up with a good final solution to end it all; hear me out
we launch all the nukes we have at the same time and kill off all humans; this way we will accomplish the only goal that matters: protecting people from covid
yay nay?
User was temp banned for this post.
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On September 28 2021 18:03 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2021 17:34 Slydie wrote: Covid passports are coming here in Spain too, for entering discos with 100% capacity. I doubt it is neccesary with that many vaccinated, but it is clearly one of the situations where infections are most likely to happen so whatever.
Spain is clearly taking a much more cautious approach than Norway, even with considerably more people fully vaccinated. We'll see if it makes a difference! Wasn't Spain hit hard in the first wave? Would make sense for them to be more cautious considering what they went through.
In my opinion, the country was traumatized by the first wave, and the healthcare sector went through helI, being unprepared and underequipped to deal with the situation. It is clearly the explanation, but I don't think there is too much "sense" to being so cautious at this point. The vaccine rollout was a massive success! Being scared is not always being right.
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On September 28 2021 15:25 Mohdoo wrote: Conservative media is becoming increasingly antivax. It’s really sad. I don’t know how hey managed to make this political. Sigh.
I feel like it evolved from their contrarian philosophy that they simply must disagree with anything and everything that liberals/progressives/Democrats say and think. If the Democrats trust science and medicine (climate change, vaccines, etc.), then the Republicans necessarily can't - or, at least, the Republicans must publicly take an anti-science/anti-medicine stance, because they see such things as pro-Democrat.
Edit: Perhaps it's also related to religiosity (I'm thinking about anti-evolution and anti- big bang stances too, primarily from conservatives who reject science).
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On September 28 2021 11:52 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2021 09:08 NewSunshine wrote: If you think it's some kind of nefarious "government encroachment" when it tells people there are public health standards they plan on enforcing, I have bad news for you in that that is both the government's job, and long supported by precedent in various health-focused government organizations. We don't consider it government encroachment when we say that someone's place of business is subject to health and safety inspections, we consider that an important standard. The objection is that there is a difference between "employees must wash hands before returning to work" and "employees must be vaccinated before returning to work." It's not "logically inconsistent" to agree with one and not the other. The fact that you're okay with the government implementing some health and safety standards doesn't mean you automatically have to approve of every new health and safety standard. It's not an all-or-nothing where you have to either be okay with vaccine passports or be okay with Typhoid Mary cooking your dinner. Of course there's a difference between vaccines and washing your hands, that's why you're using that example. OSHA has exercised their authority already in the face of the smallpox epidemic to require vaccination, in addition to other substantial health and safety standards that go above and beyond whether people have the decency to wash their hands.
Of course, if you're against the vaccine, this would seem like an overreach, and I'd understand that. The science is what it is, the way forward is a gravity issue. I can't help it if that upsets you.
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On September 28 2021 19:34 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2021 18:03 Gorsameth wrote:On September 28 2021 17:34 Slydie wrote: Covid passports are coming here in Spain too, for entering discos with 100% capacity. I doubt it is neccesary with that many vaccinated, but it is clearly one of the situations where infections are most likely to happen so whatever.
Spain is clearly taking a much more cautious approach than Norway, even with considerably more people fully vaccinated. We'll see if it makes a difference! Wasn't Spain hit hard in the first wave? Would make sense for them to be more cautious considering what they went through. In my opinion, the country was traumatized by the first wave, and the healthcare sector went through helI, being unprepared and underequipped to deal with the situation. It is clearly the explanation, but I don't think there is too much "sense" to being so cautious at this point. The vaccine rollout was a massive success! Being scared is not always being right. Time will tell. We thought we were all done with high 70 perfect vaccination rate and low levels. Now were the worst weve ever been with increasing restrictions and no slowing down. Delta is different and high 70s was eligible not total population so we dramatically missed the mark.
We had also slowed down vaccination rates gov tried lotyo and 100 dollar rebate with no effect. Passport system and rate tripled. It could work out well to get the stragglers and make it the social norm forevery one to have it.
There are not many downsides to it for the vaccinated who make up the large majority and most business prefer it both to keep their employees healthy but also to make their customers feel safe to come use their businesses, including tourists.
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On September 28 2021 21:48 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2021 11:52 BlackJack wrote:On September 28 2021 09:08 NewSunshine wrote: If you think it's some kind of nefarious "government encroachment" when it tells people there are public health standards they plan on enforcing, I have bad news for you in that that is both the government's job, and long supported by precedent in various health-focused government organizations. We don't consider it government encroachment when we say that someone's place of business is subject to health and safety inspections, we consider that an important standard. The objection is that there is a difference between "employees must wash hands before returning to work" and "employees must be vaccinated before returning to work." It's not "logically inconsistent" to agree with one and not the other. The fact that you're okay with the government implementing some health and safety standards doesn't mean you automatically have to approve of every new health and safety standard. It's not an all-or-nothing where you have to either be okay with vaccine passports or be okay with Typhoid Mary cooking your dinner. Of course there's a difference between vaccines and washing your hands, that's why you're using that example. OSHA has exercised their authority already in the face of the smallpox epidemic to require vaccination, in addition to other substantial health and safety standards that go above and beyond whether people have the decency to wash their hands. Of course, if you're against the vaccine, this would seem like an overreach, and I'd understand that. The science is what it is, the way forward is a gravity issue. I can't help it if that upsets you.
For the record, I'm not "against the vaccine." I got my first shot in Dec. 2020, only days after it was approved for emergency use. I encourage everyone I know to get vaccinated. Being against vaccine mandates and being against the vaccine isn't the same thing.
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I don't agree. The reason we need a mandate to begin with is because we still have 70 million people who are choosing not to protect themselves and those around them, most of whom doing so intentionally. It's because of them that we still have not hit that critical tipping point that actually allows us to nullify the threat of COVID. Their decision not to get vaccinated also diminishes your decision to get vaccinated, and by fighting for their right to not get the vaccine if they can't be bothered you're fighting to diminish the efficacy of the vaccine for everyone. So I don't really care if you personally are vaccinated when you make your arguments. Everyone needs to be.
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On September 29 2021 05:09 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2021 21:48 NewSunshine wrote:On September 28 2021 11:52 BlackJack wrote:On September 28 2021 09:08 NewSunshine wrote: If you think it's some kind of nefarious "government encroachment" when it tells people there are public health standards they plan on enforcing, I have bad news for you in that that is both the government's job, and long supported by precedent in various health-focused government organizations. We don't consider it government encroachment when we say that someone's place of business is subject to health and safety inspections, we consider that an important standard. The objection is that there is a difference between "employees must wash hands before returning to work" and "employees must be vaccinated before returning to work." It's not "logically inconsistent" to agree with one and not the other. The fact that you're okay with the government implementing some health and safety standards doesn't mean you automatically have to approve of every new health and safety standard. It's not an all-or-nothing where you have to either be okay with vaccine passports or be okay with Typhoid Mary cooking your dinner. Of course there's a difference between vaccines and washing your hands, that's why you're using that example. OSHA has exercised their authority already in the face of the smallpox epidemic to require vaccination, in addition to other substantial health and safety standards that go above and beyond whether people have the decency to wash their hands. Of course, if you're against the vaccine, this would seem like an overreach, and I'd understand that. The science is what it is, the way forward is a gravity issue. I can't help it if that upsets you. For the record, I'm not "against the vaccine." I got my first shot in Dec. 2020, only days after it was approved for emergency use. I encourage everyone I know to get vaccinated. Being against vaccine mandates and being against the vaccine isn't the same thing.
What is the key difference that makes you against vaccine mandates, while simultaneously being for other sanitation/health/safety mandates? Why is a vaccine mandate an example of unacceptable government encroachment, while the other mandates are acceptable government encroachments? And are you against all vaccine mandates, or just for covid?
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Norway28263 Posts
On September 29 2021 05:20 NewSunshine wrote: I don't agree. The reason we need a mandate to begin with is because we still have 70 million people who are choosing not to protect themselves and those around them, most of whom doing so intentionally. It's because of them that we still have not hit that critical tipping point that actually allows us to nullify the threat of COVID. Their decision not to get vaccinated also diminishes your decision to get vaccinated, and by fighting for their right to not get the vaccine if they can't be bothered you're fighting to diminish the efficacy of the vaccine for everyone. So I don't really care if you personally are vaccinated when you make your arguments. Everyone needs to be.
It's fine that you're pro-vaccine mandates, but it's not fair to equate an anti-vaccine mandate position to an anti-vaccine position. It's not a matter of 'wanting to eradicate covid or not', it's a matter of also considering 'what are the consequences going to be when you try to force like 80? million people to get a vaccine they for whatever reason don't want to get - a significant percentage (0.1% is 80k people) of those thinking 'they'll die trying', and landing on 'the possible consequences of that - also in terms of attempting to build more long-term trust in government agencies necessary to combat future crises - look more scary to me than what Covid does, especially considering the vaccine works pretty damn well and that nearly everyone has had a chance to get the vaccine'.
I dunno entirely where I stand myself, tbh. I'm sympathetic to the pro vaccine mandate crowd because I understand that not getting to return to a normal life because people are idiots sucks, and while I myself am entirely comfortable living my life normally after being double-vaccinated, I understand that some others are more at risk and that it's outside their control. But being against vaccine-mandates, in the US, today, with today's political climate, isn't a question of whether you want covid to end or not.
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On September 29 2021 05:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2021 05:09 BlackJack wrote:On September 28 2021 21:48 NewSunshine wrote:On September 28 2021 11:52 BlackJack wrote:On September 28 2021 09:08 NewSunshine wrote: If you think it's some kind of nefarious "government encroachment" when it tells people there are public health standards they plan on enforcing, I have bad news for you in that that is both the government's job, and long supported by precedent in various health-focused government organizations. We don't consider it government encroachment when we say that someone's place of business is subject to health and safety inspections, we consider that an important standard. The objection is that there is a difference between "employees must wash hands before returning to work" and "employees must be vaccinated before returning to work." It's not "logically inconsistent" to agree with one and not the other. The fact that you're okay with the government implementing some health and safety standards doesn't mean you automatically have to approve of every new health and safety standard. It's not an all-or-nothing where you have to either be okay with vaccine passports or be okay with Typhoid Mary cooking your dinner. Of course there's a difference between vaccines and washing your hands, that's why you're using that example. OSHA has exercised their authority already in the face of the smallpox epidemic to require vaccination, in addition to other substantial health and safety standards that go above and beyond whether people have the decency to wash their hands. Of course, if you're against the vaccine, this would seem like an overreach, and I'd understand that. The science is what it is, the way forward is a gravity issue. I can't help it if that upsets you. For the record, I'm not "against the vaccine." I got my first shot in Dec. 2020, only days after it was approved for emergency use. I encourage everyone I know to get vaccinated. Being against vaccine mandates and being against the vaccine isn't the same thing. What is the key difference that makes you against vaccine mandates, while simultaneously being for other sanitation/health/safety mandates? Why is a vaccine mandate an example of unacceptable government encroachment, while the other mandates are acceptable government encroachments? And are you against all vaccine mandates, or just for covid?
Bodily autonomy, mostly.
No, I don't have a blanket opposition to a vaccine mandate just as I don't have a blanket opposition to government lockdowns. My opposition is due to what COVID turned out to be. Very few children are dying of COVID and very few vaccinated adults are dying of COVID. Less than a typical flu season. If children were dying en masse I'd be all for holding people down and vaccinating them. But the data is pretty overwhelming: deaths from COVID (USA) are occurring almost exclusively in unvaccinated adults who have had the opportunity to protect themselves. Frankly, for me it's not a compelling argument to hold people down and inoculate them for their own good. People do stupid things at the expense of their health and longevity all the time and I don't really care.
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