EPTCoronavirus and You - Page 481
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Any and all updates regarding the COVID-19 will need a source provided. Please do your part in helping us to keep this thread maintainable and under control. It is YOUR responsibility to fully read through the sources that you link, and you MUST provide a brief summary explaining what the source is about. Do not expect other people to do the work for you. Conspiracy theories and fear mongering will absolutely not be tolerated in this thread. Expect harsh mod actions if you try to incite fear needlessly. This is not a politics thread! You are allowed to post information regarding politics if it's related to the coronavirus, but do NOT discuss politics in here. Added a disclaimer on page 662. Many need to post better. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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BlackJack
United States10568 Posts
On September 28 2021 05:33 JimmiC wrote: Also, this is not government encroachment. The government already requires people to be vaccinated for public schools. It already allows businesses to make various health requirements including vaccination. It's not government encroachment because businesses were already allowed to ask for vaccination status? Well now it's not the business being allowed to do it, it's the government mandating that the business does it. Tell me if I'm wrong but I think you knew that super obvious difference when you were writing that sentence? Do you just think so lowly of everyone that you thought it would slip by? | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
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BlackJack
United States10568 Posts
On September 28 2021 09:08 NewSunshine wrote: If you think it's some kind of nefarious "government encroachment" when it tells people there are public health standards they plan on enforcing, I have bad news for you in that that is both the government's job, and long supported by precedent in various health-focused government organizations. We don't consider it government encroachment when we say that someone's place of business is subject to health and safety inspections, we consider that an important standard. The objection is that there is a difference between "employees must wash hands before returning to work" and "employees must be vaccinated before returning to work." It's not "logically inconsistent" to agree with one and not the other. The fact that you're okay with the government implementing some health and safety standards doesn't mean you automatically have to approve of every new health and safety standard. It's not an all-or-nothing where you have to either be okay with vaccine passports or be okay with Typhoid Mary cooking your dinner. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15690 Posts
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lkvppkj
2 Posts
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Slydie
1922 Posts
Spain is clearly taking a much more cautious approach than Norway, even with considerably more people fully vaccinated. We'll see if it makes a difference! | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21717 Posts
On September 28 2021 17:34 Slydie wrote: Wasn't Spain hit hard in the first wave? Would make sense for them to be more cautious considering what they went through.Covid passports are coming here in Spain too, for entering discos with 100% capacity. I doubt it is neccesary with that many vaccinated, but it is clearly one of the situations where infections are most likely to happen so whatever. Spain is clearly taking a much more cautious approach than Norway, even with considerably more people fully vaccinated. We'll see if it makes a difference! | ||
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Amumoman
153 Posts
we launch all the nukes we have at the same time and kill off all humans; this way we will accomplish the only goal that matters: protecting people from covid yay nay? User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Slydie
1922 Posts
On September 28 2021 18:03 Gorsameth wrote: Wasn't Spain hit hard in the first wave? Would make sense for them to be more cautious considering what they went through. In my opinion, the country was traumatized by the first wave, and the healthcare sector went through helI, being unprepared and underequipped to deal with the situation. It is clearly the explanation, but I don't think there is too much "sense" to being so cautious at this point. The vaccine rollout was a massive success! Being scared is not always being right. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44390 Posts
On September 28 2021 15:25 Mohdoo wrote: Conservative media is becoming increasingly antivax. It’s really sad. I don’t know how hey managed to make this political. Sigh. I feel like it evolved from their contrarian philosophy that they simply must disagree with anything and everything that liberals/progressives/Democrats say and think. If the Democrats trust science and medicine (climate change, vaccines, etc.), then the Republicans necessarily can't - or, at least, the Republicans must publicly take an anti-science/anti-medicine stance, because they see such things as pro-Democrat. Edit: Perhaps it's also related to religiosity (I'm thinking about anti-evolution and anti- big bang stances too, primarily from conservatives who reject science). | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On September 28 2021 11:52 BlackJack wrote: The objection is that there is a difference between "employees must wash hands before returning to work" and "employees must be vaccinated before returning to work." It's not "logically inconsistent" to agree with one and not the other. The fact that you're okay with the government implementing some health and safety standards doesn't mean you automatically have to approve of every new health and safety standard. It's not an all-or-nothing where you have to either be okay with vaccine passports or be okay with Typhoid Mary cooking your dinner. Of course there's a difference between vaccines and washing your hands, that's why you're using that example. OSHA has exercised their authority already in the face of the smallpox epidemic to require vaccination, in addition to other substantial health and safety standards that go above and beyond whether people have the decency to wash their hands. Of course, if you're against the vaccine, this would seem like an overreach, and I'd understand that. The science is what it is, the way forward is a gravity issue. I can't help it if that upsets you. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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BlackJack
United States10568 Posts
On September 28 2021 21:48 NewSunshine wrote: Of course there's a difference between vaccines and washing your hands, that's why you're using that example. OSHA has exercised their authority already in the face of the smallpox epidemic to require vaccination, in addition to other substantial health and safety standards that go above and beyond whether people have the decency to wash their hands. Of course, if you're against the vaccine, this would seem like an overreach, and I'd understand that. The science is what it is, the way forward is a gravity issue. I can't help it if that upsets you. For the record, I'm not "against the vaccine." I got my first shot in Dec. 2020, only days after it was approved for emergency use. I encourage everyone I know to get vaccinated. Being against vaccine mandates and being against the vaccine isn't the same thing. | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44390 Posts
On September 29 2021 05:09 BlackJack wrote: For the record, I'm not "against the vaccine." I got my first shot in Dec. 2020, only days after it was approved for emergency use. I encourage everyone I know to get vaccinated. Being against vaccine mandates and being against the vaccine isn't the same thing. What is the key difference that makes you against vaccine mandates, while simultaneously being for other sanitation/health/safety mandates? Why is a vaccine mandate an example of unacceptable government encroachment, while the other mandates are acceptable government encroachments? And are you against all vaccine mandates, or just for covid? | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28675 Posts
On September 29 2021 05:20 NewSunshine wrote: I don't agree. The reason we need a mandate to begin with is because we still have 70 million people who are choosing not to protect themselves and those around them, most of whom doing so intentionally. It's because of them that we still have not hit that critical tipping point that actually allows us to nullify the threat of COVID. Their decision not to get vaccinated also diminishes your decision to get vaccinated, and by fighting for their right to not get the vaccine if they can't be bothered you're fighting to diminish the efficacy of the vaccine for everyone. So I don't really care if you personally are vaccinated when you make your arguments. Everyone needs to be. It's fine that you're pro-vaccine mandates, but it's not fair to equate an anti-vaccine mandate position to an anti-vaccine position. It's not a matter of 'wanting to eradicate covid or not', it's a matter of also considering 'what are the consequences going to be when you try to force like 80? million people to get a vaccine they for whatever reason don't want to get - a significant percentage (0.1% is 80k people) of those thinking 'they'll die trying', and landing on 'the possible consequences of that - also in terms of attempting to build more long-term trust in government agencies necessary to combat future crises - look more scary to me than what Covid does, especially considering the vaccine works pretty damn well and that nearly everyone has had a chance to get the vaccine'. I dunno entirely where I stand myself, tbh. I'm sympathetic to the pro vaccine mandate crowd because I understand that not getting to return to a normal life because people are idiots sucks, and while I myself am entirely comfortable living my life normally after being double-vaccinated, I understand that some others are more at risk and that it's outside their control. But being against vaccine-mandates, in the US, today, with today's political climate, isn't a question of whether you want covid to end or not. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10568 Posts
On September 29 2021 05:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: What is the key difference that makes you against vaccine mandates, while simultaneously being for other sanitation/health/safety mandates? Why is a vaccine mandate an example of unacceptable government encroachment, while the other mandates are acceptable government encroachments? And are you against all vaccine mandates, or just for covid? Bodily autonomy, mostly. No, I don't have a blanket opposition to a vaccine mandate just as I don't have a blanket opposition to government lockdowns. My opposition is due to what COVID turned out to be. Very few children are dying of COVID and very few vaccinated adults are dying of COVID. Less than a typical flu season. If children were dying en masse I'd be all for holding people down and vaccinating them. But the data is pretty overwhelming: deaths from COVID (USA) are occurring almost exclusively in unvaccinated adults who have had the opportunity to protect themselves. Frankly, for me it's not a compelling argument to hold people down and inoculate them for their own good. People do stupid things at the expense of their health and longevity all the time and I don't really care. | ||
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