EPTCoronavirus and You - Page 479
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Any and all updates regarding the COVID-19 will need a source provided. Please do your part in helping us to keep this thread maintainable and under control. It is YOUR responsibility to fully read through the sources that you link, and you MUST provide a brief summary explaining what the source is about. Do not expect other people to do the work for you. Conspiracy theories and fear mongering will absolutely not be tolerated in this thread. Expect harsh mod actions if you try to incite fear needlessly. This is not a politics thread! You are allowed to post information regarding politics if it's related to the coronavirus, but do NOT discuss politics in here. Added a disclaimer on page 662. Many need to post better. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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RKC
2848 Posts
Netherlands Covid: Boy wins court battle for right to jab https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-58669918 | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22663 Posts
On September 25 2021 23:05 RKC wrote: To add some context. Children 12 and older have been allowed to get vaccinated for some time. But being minors it requires parental consent (as with all medical procedures). Mom was ok with it, dad wasn't. Court serves as a tiebreaker and told the dad his arguments were full of shit so the kid can get vaccinated.Speaking about kids, this is a sad yet heart-warming story (depending how one looks at it): Netherlands Covid: Boy wins court battle for right to jab https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-58669918 | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On September 25 2021 07:14 Belisarius wrote: That's fine. I don't have a problem with him getting a dose. Arco said that. I have a problem with him failing to separate the implications of his decision as an individual from the implications of that decision out of an organisation like the CDC, and then claiming that they are political hacks as a result. An individual might not be able to influence whether their dose gets to Africa, but the CDC can, which is why they are more measured. I'm not going to get into a long argument about it. I don't mind people being emotive and extreme to make a point. However, he's been invoking his self-appointed role as the prophet of SCIENCE to make wild extrapolations that are antithetical to the way science is actually done. Eventually, it needs to be said that this is not science. If a 3rd dose prevents an infection, that is equivalent to the same thing happening to someone from 1 dose from a variant perspective. From a health outcome perspective, more lives are saved by giving a 1st dose to someone rather than a 3rd dose to someone else. I'm not disputing that. From a purely "maximize the good of the whole" perspective, everyone should have only ever been given 1 dose and the remainder given to poor countries. But the mathematical modeling gets weird when you end up with populations that aren't actually all that resistant. For example the whole world being 40% resistant, is that better than half the world being 80% resistant? Lots of weird math starts happening and we really don't have a good way of modeling it. Different cultures cause way worse infection rates than other cultures. Spain insisting on kissing each other constantly clearly was not a good thing for covid transmission. Poor countries where large families live in small, confined buildings with poor circulation is clearly a bad thing. If I recall correctly, not too long ago, there were counties in the US that still did not have a single covid infection because they were areas no one ever cares to visit and the people who live there never care to leave. This tweet talks about the wildly insufficient donations of vaccines. But it isn't surprising. Most of the world has done a truly embarrassingly bad job at securing biotech investment to have their own vaccine infrastructure. Canada was a glaring example of this, basically just begging for doses until they were given them. It shouldn't be surprising to people that even if the US were to completely stop vaccinating their own citizens, we would have no reason to think variants won't pop up. Stopping at a single dose might end up saving lives, but it might not if an even larger population is still susceptible to infection and thus mutation. And as I said above, if we single vax the whole planet, resultant variants might make the situation worse than if half the population was double vaxed. We really just don't know how this will turn out. In the end, the only assumption we can make regarding vaccination is that the more doses that are injected the better. In many ways, the best people to vaccinate are the people who are whiny and insist on going to bars and stuff like that. My wife and I did not see friends or family for 16 months prior to being vaccinated. No Christmas, birthdays, nothing. Even now that we are vaccinated, we avoid gatherings because its the right thing to do. Part of my curse of being The Prophet of Science is that I am physically incapable of doing dumb shit in a pandemic. On September 25 2021 23:05 RKC wrote: Speaking about kids, this is a sad yet heart-warming story (depending how one looks at it): Netherlands Covid: Boy wins court battle for right to jab https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-58669918 This is a particularly good precedent because it improves children's rights. We live in a barbaric point in history right now where children are viewed as the property of their parents rather than individuals protected by the state. These sorts of things will help to correct our awful culture of letting parents dictate the health decisions of their children. Parents shouldn't even be involved in most medical decisions for their children. | ||
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Slydie
2014 Posts
On September 25 2021 22:20 JimmiC wrote: First its not less or just like the flu for kids. Every southern state in the US wouldnt be breaking pediactric ICU rates if that was the case. Less bad then for adults does not mean nothing. And the vaccine on children testing has been negligible (I dont want to say nothing because some here will find out someome had a sore throst and call me a liar). Way less then covid. To get to herd immunity and end this as a major problem you need 85% of total population, not eligible. Which is impossible with out kids depending on the demographics, or would require every adult bucking up and getting it done, which is also not happening. Most parents that dont have some stramge political misgiving about this vaccine for "reasons" are looking forward to approval for all the reasons that we get our kids their other vacinations. First, I was very emotional watching Norway reopening today, vaccines being effective was the main reason they cited. I just read from the FHI (Norway) that only 2 in 2 million infected kids from 0-17 expected to die from COVID-19. Only 140 kids were hospitalized in Norway since the start of the pandemic. Those included kids with underlying conditions, and most of them were out again after 2 days. Infants under 1 year are the most likely to be hospitalized, but they can aquire additional immunity if their mother were vaccinated during pregnancy, so that is now recommend. I think the Norwegians had some very good reasons to reopen right now, and so did the Danes a few weeks ago. Source in Norwegian: https://www.fhi.no/nyheter/2021/lite-covid-sykdom-og-fa-senfolger-blant-barn/ | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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InDaHouse
Sweden956 Posts
On September 26 2021 03:02 Mohdoo wrote: This is a particularly good precedent because it improves children's rights. We live in a barbaric point in history right now where children are viewed as the property of their parents rather than individuals protected by the state. These sorts of things will help to correct our awful culture of letting parents dictate the health decisions of their children. Parents shouldn't even be involved in most medical decisions for their children. You must be the most awful poster in the history of TL and I've been around here for approx 15 years more or less. When the daily active usercount was only couple of 100 users here back in the day, people like you spewing out this marxist bullshit day in and day out would be stomped really hard by the former community. Your authoritarian marxist dream that children should belong to the State would make Marx, Lenin and Stalin very proud. This atrocious belief is truly tyrannical in its essence to strip parents rights for their own children. We still have some sanity left in the medical expertise in Sweden. In this recent medical journal 24 specialist doctors from different fields arguing heavily against vaccinating children. lakartidningen.se the article is in Swedish User was warned for this post. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46516 Posts
On September 26 2021 05:00 InDaHouse wrote: You must be the most awful poster in the history of TL and I've been around here for approx 15 years more or less. When the daily active usercount was only couple of 100 users here back in the day, people like you spewing out this marxist bullshit day in and day out would be stomped really hard by the former community. Your authoritarian marxist dream that children should belong to the State would make Marx, Lenin and Stalin very proud. This atrocious belief is truly tyrannical in its essence to strip parents rights for their own children. We still have some sanity left in the medical expertise in Sweden. In this recent medical journal 24 specialist doctors from different fields arguing heavily against vaccinating children. lakartidningen.se the article is in Swedish So it's the recommendation of the entire "Swedish Pediatric Association, the Swedish School Medical Association and the Swedish Society for Infectious Disease Control" + "The Swedish Public Health Agency" vs. 24 doctors who specialize in things like "dermatology" and "microbiology" - all quotes are directly from your source - and you're aggressively attacking someone else for posting terribly? Would you really change your mind if 100% of experts agreed, instead of only 99%? Edit: Also, on the topic of parents' control over their children, keep in mind that child neglect/abuse is a very real issue, especially when it comes to children being denied necessary medicine/healthcare from their parents. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
But to give more autonomy to young children is quite a leap of solution. There are other alternative safety nets (grandparents, legal guardians, social care, doctors, etc). This is deviating from the issue of COVID vaccination for teens and kids. The main takeaway is that we shouldn't extrapolate COVID specific issues to wider societal problems. There's definitely some causal link between the two, but let's not get sidetracked too much away from the whole point of this thread. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On September 26 2021 13:44 RKC wrote: Of course there are many bad parents out there who negatively impact (or even completely ruin) the previous lives of their children. Child abuse is a serious issue. But to give more autonomy to young children is quite a leap of solution. There are other alternative safety nets (grandparents, legal guardians, social care, doctors, etc). This is deviating from the issue of COVID vaccination for teens and kids. The main takeaway is that we shouldn't extrapolate COVID specific issues to wider societal problems. There's definitely some causal link between the two, but let's not get sidetracked too much away from the whole point of this thread. I don't think Mohdoo is arguing for more autonomy for young children on healthcare decisions. He said they are "individuals protected by the state" so I think he is arguing that the state should mostly be responsible for their healthcare decisions. It's a bold opinion to share on the same day he called the FDA "criminally incompetent" but I know Mohdoo has plenty of bold ideas. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On September 26 2021 15:08 BlackJack wrote: I don't think Mohdoo is arguing for more autonomy for young children on healthcare decisions. He said they are "individuals protected by the state" so I think he is arguing that the state should mostly be responsible for their healthcare decisions. It's a bold opinion to share on the same day he called the FDA "criminally incompetent" but I know Mohdoo has plenty of bold ideas. I won’t derail this thread for the reasons described by RKC, but: I think the government should have standards in place that are decided on as minimum level of care for children, including the right to vaccines if they want them. I’d go so far as to say I think the state should make sure all kids are vaccinated because we owe it to children to receive care when they lack the right to self determination. When kids are forced to be the property of parents, as is currently the case, they need permission for many things that many of us would consider mandatory or the only humane choice. I think this level of ownership is immoral. Children are completely helpless and we should help the helpless. Kids aren’t fully developed and we have a lot of science telling us why they can’t govern themselves. But that shouldn’t mean whoever happened to birth them determines their entire medical trajectory. We owe children more than that. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
Would you say the same thing if you lived as a Jew in a Nazi occupied zone? It's easy to say things like that from within a democratic, developed, mostly free country. In an alternate universe Hitler won the war and fascism is currently ruling Europe and Russia. In another alternate universe the USA is still under British rule. In another alternate universe slavery was never abolished. In those universes, I'd rather die than let the state dictate over my child's health. During times of privilege it's easy to argue that the state should interfere with people's lives more. Remove that privilege and suddenly things look very different. Ironically, the things you propose are more likely under a totalitarian regime. Some stones should be left untouched. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On September 26 2021 17:26 Magic Powers wrote: I guess since we keep circling back to that, I'll post my honest thoughts that I've been holding back. Would you say the same thing if you lived as a Jew in a Nazi occupied zone? It's easy to say things like that from within a democratic, developed, mostly free country. In an alternate universe Hitler won the war and fascism is currently ruling Europe and Russia. In another alternate universe the USA is still under British rule. In another alternate universe slavery was never abolished. In those universes, I'd rather die than let the state dictate over my child's health. During times of privilege it's easy to argue that the state should interfere with people's lives more. Remove that privilege and suddenly things look very different. Ironically, the things you propose are more likely under a totalitarian regime. Some stones should be left untouched. I don’t think we should only do things if we’d be cool with it in nazi Germany. The US is not Nazi germany. I honestly think it’s a silly hypothetical. Basically all forms of society could be said to be bad in nazi stuff. Schools? Bad thing if nazi. Chemical research? Definitely a bad thing if nazis. It’s just not a reasonable or productive hypothetical. Bringing up nazis isn’t reasonable when trying to have a conversation about any modern democracy | ||
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Slydie
2014 Posts
On September 26 2021 04:08 Mohdoo wrote: How is Norway handling their borders? Their plan sounds great so long as they aren't letting a bunch of unvaxed tourists run around They handle their boarders like this. The rules are quite complicated, but they are eased up compared to previously, especiy from EU/Schengen. https://www.regjeringen.no/en/topics/koronavirus-covid-19/travel-to-norway/id2791503/ Edit, and the party last night turned out pretty ugly... Inevitable after all this time, I guess... | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
More governmental intervention? That's even scarier than more personal autonomy... (Ideally, the role of the government should be to dictate who should be responsible for what. The 'who' should be independent experts and institutions rather than itself, as much as possible. So it's fine for the government to let doctors or judges decide on health decisions of children, but not to set blanket rules.) | ||
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Sapaio
Denmark2037 Posts
The difference is between actual treatment of an illness and the prevention of potential illness. Would not say the state should never force vaccinate children or adults, there could be be cases where it could be good. Think history have shown that in general kids are best left in parents care, of course there are unfit parents. But parent child upbringing is the common way for a reason. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On September 26 2021 17:38 Mohdoo wrote: I don’t think we should only do things if we’d be cool with it in nazi Germany. The US is not Nazi germany. I honestly think it’s a silly hypothetical. Basically all forms of society could be said to be bad in nazi stuff. Schools? Bad thing if nazi. Chemical research? Definitely a bad thing if nazis. It’s just not a reasonable or productive hypothetical. Bringing up nazis isn’t reasonable when trying to have a conversation about any modern democracy Democratic, free, and progressive countries are the exception, historically speaking. You're still looking at this from a position of privilege. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On September 26 2021 17:55 Sapaio wrote: I can understand the need for the stat to look after the well being of child safety. But if adult's have a choice and think it's insane not to let the parents have a choice for there children, especially because the are side effects of vaccines and convid effects children less serverly. The difference is between actual treatment of an illness and the prevention of potential illness. Would not say the state should never force vaccinate children or adults, there could be be cases where it could be good. Think history have shown that in general kids are best left in parents care, of course there are unfit parents. But parent child upbringing is the common way for a reason. Yes, it's one thing to override parental refusal for their child to undergo life-saving treatment (blood transfusion) due to religious grounds (Jehovah Witness). It's quite another thing in a situation involving a low-risk infectious disease and medical treatment which is not properly studied and tested (I'm speaking generally, not specifically COVID). | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On September 26 2021 17:38 Mohdoo wrote: I don’t think we should only do things if we’d be cool with it in nazi Germany. The US is not Nazi germany. I honestly think it’s a silly hypothetical. Basically all forms of society could be said to be bad in nazi stuff. Schools? Bad thing if nazi. Chemical research? Definitely a bad thing if nazis. It’s just not a reasonable or productive hypothetical. Bringing up nazis isn’t reasonable when trying to have a conversation about any modern democracy You still just called the FDA "criminally incompetent" though? Even if the FDA isn't who you had in mind in making healthcare decisions for your children, how can you be sure whatever bureaucracy is in charge isn't also criminally incompetent? You'd still rather have them make healthcare decisions for your children than yourself? Edit: I guess I should also add a disclaimer similar to what RKC said above. There are many cases that rise to the level of neglect/child abuse where the state should step in. COVID vaccination isn't one of them. | ||
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