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Any and all updates regarding the COVID-19 will need a source provided. Please do your part in helping us to keep this thread maintainable and under control.
It is YOUR responsibility to fully read through the sources that you link, and you MUST provide a brief summary explaining what the source is about. Do not expect other people to do the work for you.
Conspiracy theories and fear mongering will absolutely not be tolerated in this thread. Expect harsh mod actions if you try to incite fear needlessly.
This is not a politics thread! You are allowed to post information regarding politics if it's related to the coronavirus, but do NOT discuss politics in here.
Added a disclaimer on page 662. Many need to post better. |
The unvaccinated don't have more rights than the vaccinated, and vica versa. There can't be a simple yes or no on vaccine mandates, it has to depend on the context. Without context, any argument for or against can be made.
Without discussing the specifics, being against or in favor of all vaccine mandates is both unreasonable.
The vaccines are not wonder drugs, they don't immunize perfectly. Therefore if vaccinated people are frequently exposed to an unvaccinated person for several hours at a time, that person poses a potential and meaningful risk to them. We're not talking about the flu pre-2020, which was much more manageable, we're talking about this covid-19 pandemic specifically.
Furthermore, the governments of the US and the EU are very low on the list of countries disregarding individual rights. I'm not currently afraid as an individual living in one of these countries that suddenly I don't have autonomy anymore.
But that's exactly why I strongly prefer to live in a western country. When comparing the death toll caused by various governments, a tendency appears: respect for individual rights strongly reduces deaths. This is what I think rightfully gives people pause before they consider accepting something like a vaccine mandate, even during a pandemic. People's rights can be abolished hardly any faster than during a crisis, when people call for help and make themselves more vulnerable to the powerful. This is another clear historical pattern.
I'm only trying to say that these are certainly not easy decisions.
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On September 29 2021 06:42 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2021 05:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 29 2021 05:09 BlackJack wrote:On September 28 2021 21:48 NewSunshine wrote:On September 28 2021 11:52 BlackJack wrote:On September 28 2021 09:08 NewSunshine wrote:
If you think it's some kind of nefarious "government encroachment" when it tells people there are public health standards they plan on enforcing, I have bad news for you in that that is both the government's job, and long supported by precedent in various health-focused government organizations. We don't consider it government encroachment when we say that someone's place of business is subject to health and safety inspections, we consider that an important standard. The objection is that there is a difference between "employees must wash hands before returning to work" and "employees must be vaccinated before returning to work." It's not "logically inconsistent" to agree with one and not the other. The fact that you're okay with the government implementing some health and safety standards doesn't mean you automatically have to approve of every new health and safety standard. It's not an all-or-nothing where you have to either be okay with vaccine passports or be okay with Typhoid Mary cooking your dinner. Of course there's a difference between vaccines and washing your hands, that's why you're using that example. OSHA has exercised their authority already in the face of the smallpox epidemic to require vaccination, in addition to other substantial health and safety standards that go above and beyond whether people have the decency to wash their hands. Of course, if you're against the vaccine, this would seem like an overreach, and I'd understand that. The science is what it is, the way forward is a gravity issue. I can't help it if that upsets you. For the record, I'm not "against the vaccine." I got my first shot in Dec. 2020, only days after it was approved for emergency use. I encourage everyone I know to get vaccinated. Being against vaccine mandates and being against the vaccine isn't the same thing. What is the key difference that makes you against vaccine mandates, while simultaneously being for other sanitation/health/safety mandates? Why is a vaccine mandate an example of unacceptable government encroachment, while the other mandates are acceptable government encroachments? And are you against all vaccine mandates, or just for covid? Bodily autonomy, mostly. No, I don't have a blanket opposition to a vaccine mandate just as I don't have a blanket opposition to government lockdowns. My opposition is due to what COVID turned out to be. Very few children are dying of COVID and very few vaccinated adults are dying of COVID. Less than a typical flu season. If children were dying en masse I'd be all for holding people down and vaccinating them. But the data is pretty overwhelming: deaths from COVID (USA) are occurring almost exclusively in unvaccinated adults who have had the opportunity to protect themselves. Frankly, for me it's not a compelling argument to hold people down and inoculate them for their own good. People do stupid things at the expense of their health and longevity all the time and I don't really care.
Thanks for clarifying. Are you against mask mandates as well? Would that infringe upon one's bodily autonomy enough to be an issue, too? Or is a mask mandate an acceptable amount of infringement?
And also, while I agree with you / the data that most deaths (and hospitalizations, too!) are of unvaccinated adults (rather than children or vaccinated adults), there are still the issues of breakthrough cases and the perpetuation of covid, which are both primarily enabled by unvaccinated people. Unvaccinated people are more likely to become infected and infect others, which makes their vaccinated neighbors/families/friends/colleagues more susceptible, and it permits the virus to continue to survive and spread and thrive and mutate into additional strains, which may very well be resistant to outdated vaccines (again, endangering the vaccinated population). So unvaccinated people are not only putting themselves at risk, but they are presently putting vaccinated at risk too, and they'll continue to be putting everyone at risk for as long as covid is around. We already see this, as our vaccines are less effective against newer strains like the delta variant. Thoughts?
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For me, one of the reasons vax mandates make sense is that there isn't a reasonable argument against it. There aren't enough people suffering from the vax compared to people suffering due to antivax. The vax doesn't need to provide 100% protection in order to be a huge, measurable net positive. So long as we know it is a huge net positive and we know there aren't good reasons against it (other than medical reasons), mandate is moral in my eyes.
I don't think it is reasonable to equate all forms of skepticism. Someone who doesn't want to play Russian roulette is not the same as someone who doesn't want a covid vaccine. Its not just a simple matter of people "having the right" to say no or body autonomy or whatever. If someone says they won't wear a mask because they don't want their DNA edited, fuck that guy, he's a dumbass.
In essence, I am saying society has the right to reject someone's skepticism if their reasoning sucks to a notable degree. In this instance, everyone's skepticism is way beyond unreasonable.
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On September 29 2021 07:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2021 06:42 BlackJack wrote:On September 29 2021 05:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 29 2021 05:09 BlackJack wrote:On September 28 2021 21:48 NewSunshine wrote:On September 28 2021 11:52 BlackJack wrote:On September 28 2021 09:08 NewSunshine wrote:
If you think it's some kind of nefarious "government encroachment" when it tells people there are public health standards they plan on enforcing, I have bad news for you in that that is both the government's job, and long supported by precedent in various health-focused government organizations. We don't consider it government encroachment when we say that someone's place of business is subject to health and safety inspections, we consider that an important standard. The objection is that there is a difference between "employees must wash hands before returning to work" and "employees must be vaccinated before returning to work." It's not "logically inconsistent" to agree with one and not the other. The fact that you're okay with the government implementing some health and safety standards doesn't mean you automatically have to approve of every new health and safety standard. It's not an all-or-nothing where you have to either be okay with vaccine passports or be okay with Typhoid Mary cooking your dinner. Of course there's a difference between vaccines and washing your hands, that's why you're using that example. OSHA has exercised their authority already in the face of the smallpox epidemic to require vaccination, in addition to other substantial health and safety standards that go above and beyond whether people have the decency to wash their hands. Of course, if you're against the vaccine, this would seem like an overreach, and I'd understand that. The science is what it is, the way forward is a gravity issue. I can't help it if that upsets you. For the record, I'm not "against the vaccine." I got my first shot in Dec. 2020, only days after it was approved for emergency use. I encourage everyone I know to get vaccinated. Being against vaccine mandates and being against the vaccine isn't the same thing. What is the key difference that makes you against vaccine mandates, while simultaneously being for other sanitation/health/safety mandates? Why is a vaccine mandate an example of unacceptable government encroachment, while the other mandates are acceptable government encroachments? And are you against all vaccine mandates, or just for covid? Bodily autonomy, mostly. No, I don't have a blanket opposition to a vaccine mandate just as I don't have a blanket opposition to government lockdowns. My opposition is due to what COVID turned out to be. Very few children are dying of COVID and very few vaccinated adults are dying of COVID. Less than a typical flu season. If children were dying en masse I'd be all for holding people down and vaccinating them. But the data is pretty overwhelming: deaths from COVID (USA) are occurring almost exclusively in unvaccinated adults who have had the opportunity to protect themselves. Frankly, for me it's not a compelling argument to hold people down and inoculate them for their own good. People do stupid things at the expense of their health and longevity all the time and I don't really care. Thanks for clarifying. Are you against mask mandates as well? Would that infringe upon one's bodily autonomy enough to be an issue, too? Or is a mask mandate an acceptable amount of infringement? And also, while I agree with you / the data that most deaths (and hospitalizations, too!) are of unvaccinated adults (rather than children or vaccinated adults), there are still the issues of breakthrough cases and the perpetuation of covid, which are both primarily enabled by unvaccinated people. Unvaccinated people are more likely to become infected and infect others, which makes their vaccinated neighbors/families/friends/colleagues more susceptible, and it permits the virus to continue to survive and spread and thrive and mutate into additional strains, which may very well be resistant to outdated vaccines (again, endangering the vaccinated population). So unvaccinated people are not only putting themselves at risk, but they are presently putting vaccinated at risk too, and they'll continue to be putting everyone at risk for as long as covid is around. We already see this, as our vaccines are less effective against newer strains like the delta variant. Thoughts?
I don't really care about mask mandates. Whining about having to cover your nose and mouth seems like the most trivial thing to claim to be oppressed over. But I also eye-roll at the people that lecture other people about about mask-wearing while they themselves wear cloth masks. Personally I only wear hospital
-style surgical masks. I believe the science is pretty clear that they do a better job at stopping droplet transmission than cloth masks. They are also only minimally less comfortable than cloth masks at worst. They are cheap and widely available. It seems like if you support mask mandates to prevent transmission then you should not be wearing a cloth mask.
Regarding your other point about the unvaccinated contributing to the spread and more variants. Probably true. People in this thread particularly like to use this argument of the unvaccinated prolonging the pandemic or how we will never end this as long as the unvaccinated are around. Maybe I am wrong but it's my understanding that most experts have already resigned to the fact that we are not going to eradicate COVID with herd immunity and it's here for the long-term with or without vaccine mandates. If there was compelling evidence that we could eradicate COVID with a vaccine mandate I might even jump on board for that.
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This is self explanatory but if global energy prices remain high and shortages continue expect higher numbers of winter deaths in the Northern Hemisphere than usual as people cannot afford to heat their homes.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-09-27/europe-s-energy-crisis-is-about-to-go-global-as-gas-prices-soar
Europe’s Energy Crisis Is Coming for the Rest of the World, Too
This winter, the world will be fighting over something that’s invisible, yet rarely so vital—and in alarmingly shorter supply.
Nations are more reliant than ever on natural gas to heat homes and power industries amid efforts to quit coal and increase the use of cleaner energy sources.
But there isn’t enough gas to fuel the post-pandemic recovery and refill depleted stocks before the cold months. Countries are trying to outbid one another for supplies as exporters such as Russia move to keep more natural gas home. The crunch will get a lot worse when temperatures drop.
Inventories at European storage facilities are at historically low levels for this time of year. Pipeline flows from Russia and Norway have been limited. That’s worrying as calmer weather has reduced output from wind turbines while Europe’s aging nuclear plants are being phased out or are more prone to outages—making gas even more necessary. No wonder European gas prices surged by almost 500% in the past year and are trading near record.
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On September 29 2021 15:15 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:This is self explanatory but if global energy prices remain high and shortages continue expect higher numbers of winter deaths in the Northern Hemisphere than usual as people cannot afford to heat their homes. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-09-27/europe-s-energy-crisis-is-about-to-go-global-as-gas-prices-soarShow nested quote +Europe’s Energy Crisis Is Coming for the Rest of the World, Too
This winter, the world will be fighting over something that’s invisible, yet rarely so vital—and in alarmingly shorter supply.
Nations are more reliant than ever on natural gas to heat homes and power industries amid efforts to quit coal and increase the use of cleaner energy sources.
But there isn’t enough gas to fuel the post-pandemic recovery and refill depleted stocks before the cold months. Countries are trying to outbid one another for supplies as exporters such as Russia move to keep more natural gas home. The crunch will get a lot worse when temperatures drop.
Inventories at European storage facilities are at historically low levels for this time of year. Pipeline flows from Russia and Norway have been limited. That’s worrying as calmer weather has reduced output from wind turbines while Europe’s aging nuclear plants are being phased out or are more prone to outages—making gas even more necessary. No wonder European gas prices surged by almost 500% in the past year and are trading near record.
When people say Europe, do they mean Germany ? Just use nuclear energy over natural gas/coal lmao
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On September 29 2021 17:31 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2021 15:15 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:This is self explanatory but if global energy prices remain high and shortages continue expect higher numbers of winter deaths in the Northern Hemisphere than usual as people cannot afford to heat their homes. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-09-27/europe-s-energy-crisis-is-about-to-go-global-as-gas-prices-soarEurope’s Energy Crisis Is Coming for the Rest of the World, Too
This winter, the world will be fighting over something that’s invisible, yet rarely so vital—and in alarmingly shorter supply.
Nations are more reliant than ever on natural gas to heat homes and power industries amid efforts to quit coal and increase the use of cleaner energy sources.
But there isn’t enough gas to fuel the post-pandemic recovery and refill depleted stocks before the cold months. Countries are trying to outbid one another for supplies as exporters such as Russia move to keep more natural gas home. The crunch will get a lot worse when temperatures drop.
Inventories at European storage facilities are at historically low levels for this time of year. Pipeline flows from Russia and Norway have been limited. That’s worrying as calmer weather has reduced output from wind turbines while Europe’s aging nuclear plants are being phased out or are more prone to outages—making gas even more necessary. No wonder European gas prices surged by almost 500% in the past year and are trading near record.
When people say Europe, do they mean Germany ? Just use nuclear energy over natural gas/coal lmao ? The energy issues are in more places then just Germany and other countries also have nuclear power plants.
I do kinda hope these energy issues make governments more receptive towards nuclear power as a supplement to renewable energy.
Wait, this isn't the EU politics thread. This discussion probably belongs there, and not in the Corona thread.
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On September 29 2021 14:54 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2021 07:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 29 2021 06:42 BlackJack wrote:On September 29 2021 05:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 29 2021 05:09 BlackJack wrote:On September 28 2021 21:48 NewSunshine wrote:On September 28 2021 11:52 BlackJack wrote:On September 28 2021 09:08 NewSunshine wrote:
If you think it's some kind of nefarious "government encroachment" when it tells people there are public health standards they plan on enforcing, I have bad news for you in that that is both the government's job, and long supported by precedent in various health-focused government organizations. We don't consider it government encroachment when we say that someone's place of business is subject to health and safety inspections, we consider that an important standard. The objection is that there is a difference between "employees must wash hands before returning to work" and "employees must be vaccinated before returning to work." It's not "logically inconsistent" to agree with one and not the other. The fact that you're okay with the government implementing some health and safety standards doesn't mean you automatically have to approve of every new health and safety standard. It's not an all-or-nothing where you have to either be okay with vaccine passports or be okay with Typhoid Mary cooking your dinner. Of course there's a difference between vaccines and washing your hands, that's why you're using that example. OSHA has exercised their authority already in the face of the smallpox epidemic to require vaccination, in addition to other substantial health and safety standards that go above and beyond whether people have the decency to wash their hands. Of course, if you're against the vaccine, this would seem like an overreach, and I'd understand that. The science is what it is, the way forward is a gravity issue. I can't help it if that upsets you. For the record, I'm not "against the vaccine." I got my first shot in Dec. 2020, only days after it was approved for emergency use. I encourage everyone I know to get vaccinated. Being against vaccine mandates and being against the vaccine isn't the same thing. What is the key difference that makes you against vaccine mandates, while simultaneously being for other sanitation/health/safety mandates? Why is a vaccine mandate an example of unacceptable government encroachment, while the other mandates are acceptable government encroachments? And are you against all vaccine mandates, or just for covid? Bodily autonomy, mostly. No, I don't have a blanket opposition to a vaccine mandate just as I don't have a blanket opposition to government lockdowns. My opposition is due to what COVID turned out to be. Very few children are dying of COVID and very few vaccinated adults are dying of COVID. Less than a typical flu season. If children were dying en masse I'd be all for holding people down and vaccinating them. But the data is pretty overwhelming: deaths from COVID (USA) are occurring almost exclusively in unvaccinated adults who have had the opportunity to protect themselves. Frankly, for me it's not a compelling argument to hold people down and inoculate them for their own good. People do stupid things at the expense of their health and longevity all the time and I don't really care. Thanks for clarifying. Are you against mask mandates as well? Would that infringe upon one's bodily autonomy enough to be an issue, too? Or is a mask mandate an acceptable amount of infringement? And also, while I agree with you / the data that most deaths (and hospitalizations, too!) are of unvaccinated adults (rather than children or vaccinated adults), there are still the issues of breakthrough cases and the perpetuation of covid, which are both primarily enabled by unvaccinated people. Unvaccinated people are more likely to become infected and infect others, which makes their vaccinated neighbors/families/friends/colleagues more susceptible, and it permits the virus to continue to survive and spread and thrive and mutate into additional strains, which may very well be resistant to outdated vaccines (again, endangering the vaccinated population). So unvaccinated people are not only putting themselves at risk, but they are presently putting vaccinated at risk too, and they'll continue to be putting everyone at risk for as long as covid is around. We already see this, as our vaccines are less effective against newer strains like the delta variant. Thoughts? I don't really care about mask mandates. Whining about having to cover your nose and mouth seems like the most trivial thing to claim to be oppressed over. But I also eye-roll at the people that lecture other people about about mask-wearing while they themselves wear cloth masks. Personally I only wear hospital -style surgical masks. I believe the science is pretty clear that they do a better job at stopping droplet transmission than cloth masks. They are also only minimally less comfortable than cloth masks at worst. They are cheap and widely available. It seems like if you support mask mandates to prevent transmission then you should not be wearing a cloth mask. Regarding your other point about the unvaccinated contributing to the spread and more variants. Probably true. People in this thread particularly like to use this argument of the unvaccinated prolonging the pandemic or how we will never end this as long as the unvaccinated are around. Maybe I am wrong but it's my understanding that most experts have already resigned to the fact that we are not going to eradicate COVID with herd immunity and it's here for the long-term with or without vaccine mandates. If there was compelling evidence that we could eradicate COVID with a vaccine mandate I might even jump on board for that.
Yeah I agree with you that wearing a mask is incredibly trivial, and that wearing the *proper* mask (and wearing it correctly, too!) are super important as well. That being said, I find getting vaccinated to be even less of a hassle than wearing a mask. Buying and wearing masks every day, taking them on and off, making sure they stay clean, not being able to see people's faces, etc. vs. getting a few free shots? I've heard a reasonable complaint that some people can't take off work for the few days needed for vaccinations, but the simple counterargument is that infected, unvaccinated people are forced to take off many more days for work. I think it's definitely fair to say that getting an annual shot or two is far less oppressive than being forced to cover half your face every day. Thoughts?
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On September 29 2021 20:15 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2021 14:54 BlackJack wrote:On September 29 2021 07:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 29 2021 06:42 BlackJack wrote:On September 29 2021 05:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 29 2021 05:09 BlackJack wrote:On September 28 2021 21:48 NewSunshine wrote:On September 28 2021 11:52 BlackJack wrote:On September 28 2021 09:08 NewSunshine wrote:
If you think it's some kind of nefarious "government encroachment" when it tells people there are public health standards they plan on enforcing, I have bad news for you in that that is both the government's job, and long supported by precedent in various health-focused government organizations. We don't consider it government encroachment when we say that someone's place of business is subject to health and safety inspections, we consider that an important standard. The objection is that there is a difference between "employees must wash hands before returning to work" and "employees must be vaccinated before returning to work." It's not "logically inconsistent" to agree with one and not the other. The fact that you're okay with the government implementing some health and safety standards doesn't mean you automatically have to approve of every new health and safety standard. It's not an all-or-nothing where you have to either be okay with vaccine passports or be okay with Typhoid Mary cooking your dinner. Of course there's a difference between vaccines and washing your hands, that's why you're using that example. OSHA has exercised their authority already in the face of the smallpox epidemic to require vaccination, in addition to other substantial health and safety standards that go above and beyond whether people have the decency to wash their hands. Of course, if you're against the vaccine, this would seem like an overreach, and I'd understand that. The science is what it is, the way forward is a gravity issue. I can't help it if that upsets you. For the record, I'm not "against the vaccine." I got my first shot in Dec. 2020, only days after it was approved for emergency use. I encourage everyone I know to get vaccinated. Being against vaccine mandates and being against the vaccine isn't the same thing. What is the key difference that makes you against vaccine mandates, while simultaneously being for other sanitation/health/safety mandates? Why is a vaccine mandate an example of unacceptable government encroachment, while the other mandates are acceptable government encroachments? And are you against all vaccine mandates, or just for covid? Bodily autonomy, mostly. No, I don't have a blanket opposition to a vaccine mandate just as I don't have a blanket opposition to government lockdowns. My opposition is due to what COVID turned out to be. Very few children are dying of COVID and very few vaccinated adults are dying of COVID. Less than a typical flu season. If children were dying en masse I'd be all for holding people down and vaccinating them. But the data is pretty overwhelming: deaths from COVID (USA) are occurring almost exclusively in unvaccinated adults who have had the opportunity to protect themselves. Frankly, for me it's not a compelling argument to hold people down and inoculate them for their own good. People do stupid things at the expense of their health and longevity all the time and I don't really care. Thanks for clarifying. Are you against mask mandates as well? Would that infringe upon one's bodily autonomy enough to be an issue, too? Or is a mask mandate an acceptable amount of infringement? And also, while I agree with you / the data that most deaths (and hospitalizations, too!) are of unvaccinated adults (rather than children or vaccinated adults), there are still the issues of breakthrough cases and the perpetuation of covid, which are both primarily enabled by unvaccinated people. Unvaccinated people are more likely to become infected and infect others, which makes their vaccinated neighbors/families/friends/colleagues more susceptible, and it permits the virus to continue to survive and spread and thrive and mutate into additional strains, which may very well be resistant to outdated vaccines (again, endangering the vaccinated population). So unvaccinated people are not only putting themselves at risk, but they are presently putting vaccinated at risk too, and they'll continue to be putting everyone at risk for as long as covid is around. We already see this, as our vaccines are less effective against newer strains like the delta variant. Thoughts? I don't really care about mask mandates. Whining about having to cover your nose and mouth seems like the most trivial thing to claim to be oppressed over. But I also eye-roll at the people that lecture other people about about mask-wearing while they themselves wear cloth masks. Personally I only wear hospital -style surgical masks. I believe the science is pretty clear that they do a better job at stopping droplet transmission than cloth masks. They are also only minimally less comfortable than cloth masks at worst. They are cheap and widely available. It seems like if you support mask mandates to prevent transmission then you should not be wearing a cloth mask. Regarding your other point about the unvaccinated contributing to the spread and more variants. Probably true. People in this thread particularly like to use this argument of the unvaccinated prolonging the pandemic or how we will never end this as long as the unvaccinated are around. Maybe I am wrong but it's my understanding that most experts have already resigned to the fact that we are not going to eradicate COVID with herd immunity and it's here for the long-term with or without vaccine mandates. If there was compelling evidence that we could eradicate COVID with a vaccine mandate I might even jump on board for that. Yeah I agree with you that wearing a mask is incredibly trivial, and that wearing the *proper* mask (and wearing it correctly, too!) are super important as well. That being said, I find getting vaccinated to be even less of a hassle than wearing a mask. Buying and wearing masks every day, taking them on and off, making sure they stay clean, not being able to see people's faces, etc. vs. getting a few free shots? I've heard a reasonable complaint that some people can't take off work for the few days needed for vaccinations, but the simple counterargument is that infected, unvaccinated people are forced to take off many more days for work. I think it's definitely fair to say that getting an annual shot or two is far less oppressive than being forced to cover half your face every day. Thoughts?
I agree. I am baffled about how oppressive it is considered that muslim women wear hair and face covering, but at the same time face masks are a blessing for humanity. Masks are awful for both emotional and verbal communication, and excessive use can be harmful for your skin and eyes.
The most stressful about the vaccine shots is that having to be present at a time and place, but they are by far my favorite anti-covid measure, and it very clearly works.
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Northern Ireland26096 Posts
On September 29 2021 23:12 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2021 20:15 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 29 2021 14:54 BlackJack wrote:On September 29 2021 07:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 29 2021 06:42 BlackJack wrote:On September 29 2021 05:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 29 2021 05:09 BlackJack wrote:On September 28 2021 21:48 NewSunshine wrote:On September 28 2021 11:52 BlackJack wrote:On September 28 2021 09:08 NewSunshine wrote:
If you think it's some kind of nefarious "government encroachment" when it tells people there are public health standards they plan on enforcing, I have bad news for you in that that is both the government's job, and long supported by precedent in various health-focused government organizations. We don't consider it government encroachment when we say that someone's place of business is subject to health and safety inspections, we consider that an important standard. The objection is that there is a difference between "employees must wash hands before returning to work" and "employees must be vaccinated before returning to work." It's not "logically inconsistent" to agree with one and not the other. The fact that you're okay with the government implementing some health and safety standards doesn't mean you automatically have to approve of every new health and safety standard. It's not an all-or-nothing where you have to either be okay with vaccine passports or be okay with Typhoid Mary cooking your dinner. Of course there's a difference between vaccines and washing your hands, that's why you're using that example. OSHA has exercised their authority already in the face of the smallpox epidemic to require vaccination, in addition to other substantial health and safety standards that go above and beyond whether people have the decency to wash their hands. Of course, if you're against the vaccine, this would seem like an overreach, and I'd understand that. The science is what it is, the way forward is a gravity issue. I can't help it if that upsets you. For the record, I'm not "against the vaccine." I got my first shot in Dec. 2020, only days after it was approved for emergency use. I encourage everyone I know to get vaccinated. Being against vaccine mandates and being against the vaccine isn't the same thing. What is the key difference that makes you against vaccine mandates, while simultaneously being for other sanitation/health/safety mandates? Why is a vaccine mandate an example of unacceptable government encroachment, while the other mandates are acceptable government encroachments? And are you against all vaccine mandates, or just for covid? Bodily autonomy, mostly. No, I don't have a blanket opposition to a vaccine mandate just as I don't have a blanket opposition to government lockdowns. My opposition is due to what COVID turned out to be. Very few children are dying of COVID and very few vaccinated adults are dying of COVID. Less than a typical flu season. If children were dying en masse I'd be all for holding people down and vaccinating them. But the data is pretty overwhelming: deaths from COVID (USA) are occurring almost exclusively in unvaccinated adults who have had the opportunity to protect themselves. Frankly, for me it's not a compelling argument to hold people down and inoculate them for their own good. People do stupid things at the expense of their health and longevity all the time and I don't really care. Thanks for clarifying. Are you against mask mandates as well? Would that infringe upon one's bodily autonomy enough to be an issue, too? Or is a mask mandate an acceptable amount of infringement? And also, while I agree with you / the data that most deaths (and hospitalizations, too!) are of unvaccinated adults (rather than children or vaccinated adults), there are still the issues of breakthrough cases and the perpetuation of covid, which are both primarily enabled by unvaccinated people. Unvaccinated people are more likely to become infected and infect others, which makes their vaccinated neighbors/families/friends/colleagues more susceptible, and it permits the virus to continue to survive and spread and thrive and mutate into additional strains, which may very well be resistant to outdated vaccines (again, endangering the vaccinated population). So unvaccinated people are not only putting themselves at risk, but they are presently putting vaccinated at risk too, and they'll continue to be putting everyone at risk for as long as covid is around. We already see this, as our vaccines are less effective against newer strains like the delta variant. Thoughts? I don't really care about mask mandates. Whining about having to cover your nose and mouth seems like the most trivial thing to claim to be oppressed over. But I also eye-roll at the people that lecture other people about about mask-wearing while they themselves wear cloth masks. Personally I only wear hospital -style surgical masks. I believe the science is pretty clear that they do a better job at stopping droplet transmission than cloth masks. They are also only minimally less comfortable than cloth masks at worst. They are cheap and widely available. It seems like if you support mask mandates to prevent transmission then you should not be wearing a cloth mask. Regarding your other point about the unvaccinated contributing to the spread and more variants. Probably true. People in this thread particularly like to use this argument of the unvaccinated prolonging the pandemic or how we will never end this as long as the unvaccinated are around. Maybe I am wrong but it's my understanding that most experts have already resigned to the fact that we are not going to eradicate COVID with herd immunity and it's here for the long-term with or without vaccine mandates. If there was compelling evidence that we could eradicate COVID with a vaccine mandate I might even jump on board for that. Yeah I agree with you that wearing a mask is incredibly trivial, and that wearing the *proper* mask (and wearing it correctly, too!) are super important as well. That being said, I find getting vaccinated to be even less of a hassle than wearing a mask. Buying and wearing masks every day, taking them on and off, making sure they stay clean, not being able to see people's faces, etc. vs. getting a few free shots? I've heard a reasonable complaint that some people can't take off work for the few days needed for vaccinations, but the simple counterargument is that infected, unvaccinated people are forced to take off many more days for work. I think it's definitely fair to say that getting an annual shot or two is far less oppressive than being forced to cover half your face every day. Thoughts? I agree. I am baffled about how oppressive it is considered that muslim women wear hair and face covering, but at the same time face masks are a blessing for humanity. Masks are awful for both emotional and verbal communication, and excessive use can be harmful for your skin and eyes. The most stressful about the vaccine shots is that having to be present at a time and place, but they are by far my favorite anti-covid measure, and it very clearly works.
Who considers masks a blessing for humanity?
They’re one option swimming in a sea of even worse options, that probably haven’t been implemented as effectively as they could have, rendering the negative impacts even more annoying.
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On September 29 2021 14:54 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2021 07:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 29 2021 06:42 BlackJack wrote:On September 29 2021 05:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 29 2021 05:09 BlackJack wrote:On September 28 2021 21:48 NewSunshine wrote:On September 28 2021 11:52 BlackJack wrote:On September 28 2021 09:08 NewSunshine wrote:
If you think it's some kind of nefarious "government encroachment" when it tells people there are public health standards they plan on enforcing, I have bad news for you in that that is both the government's job, and long supported by precedent in various health-focused government organizations. We don't consider it government encroachment when we say that someone's place of business is subject to health and safety inspections, we consider that an important standard. The objection is that there is a difference between "employees must wash hands before returning to work" and "employees must be vaccinated before returning to work." It's not "logically inconsistent" to agree with one and not the other. The fact that you're okay with the government implementing some health and safety standards doesn't mean you automatically have to approve of every new health and safety standard. It's not an all-or-nothing where you have to either be okay with vaccine passports or be okay with Typhoid Mary cooking your dinner. Of course there's a difference between vaccines and washing your hands, that's why you're using that example. OSHA has exercised their authority already in the face of the smallpox epidemic to require vaccination, in addition to other substantial health and safety standards that go above and beyond whether people have the decency to wash their hands. Of course, if you're against the vaccine, this would seem like an overreach, and I'd understand that. The science is what it is, the way forward is a gravity issue. I can't help it if that upsets you. For the record, I'm not "against the vaccine." I got my first shot in Dec. 2020, only days after it was approved for emergency use. I encourage everyone I know to get vaccinated. Being against vaccine mandates and being against the vaccine isn't the same thing. What is the key difference that makes you against vaccine mandates, while simultaneously being for other sanitation/health/safety mandates? Why is a vaccine mandate an example of unacceptable government encroachment, while the other mandates are acceptable government encroachments? And are you against all vaccine mandates, or just for covid? Bodily autonomy, mostly. No, I don't have a blanket opposition to a vaccine mandate just as I don't have a blanket opposition to government lockdowns. My opposition is due to what COVID turned out to be. Very few children are dying of COVID and very few vaccinated adults are dying of COVID. Less than a typical flu season. If children were dying en masse I'd be all for holding people down and vaccinating them. But the data is pretty overwhelming: deaths from COVID (USA) are occurring almost exclusively in unvaccinated adults who have had the opportunity to protect themselves. Frankly, for me it's not a compelling argument to hold people down and inoculate them for their own good. People do stupid things at the expense of their health and longevity all the time and I don't really care. Thanks for clarifying. Are you against mask mandates as well? Would that infringe upon one's bodily autonomy enough to be an issue, too? Or is a mask mandate an acceptable amount of infringement? And also, while I agree with you / the data that most deaths (and hospitalizations, too!) are of unvaccinated adults (rather than children or vaccinated adults), there are still the issues of breakthrough cases and the perpetuation of covid, which are both primarily enabled by unvaccinated people. Unvaccinated people are more likely to become infected and infect others, which makes their vaccinated neighbors/families/friends/colleagues more susceptible, and it permits the virus to continue to survive and spread and thrive and mutate into additional strains, which may very well be resistant to outdated vaccines (again, endangering the vaccinated population). So unvaccinated people are not only putting themselves at risk, but they are presently putting vaccinated at risk too, and they'll continue to be putting everyone at risk for as long as covid is around. We already see this, as our vaccines are less effective against newer strains like the delta variant. Thoughts? I don't really care about mask mandates. Whining about having to cover your nose and mouth seems like the most trivial thing to claim to be oppressed over. But I also eye-roll at the people that lecture other people about about mask-wearing while they themselves wear cloth masks. Personally I only wear hospital -style surgical masks. I believe the science is pretty clear that they do a better job at stopping droplet transmission than cloth masks. They are also only minimally less comfortable than cloth masks at worst. They are cheap and widely available. It seems like if you support mask mandates to prevent transmission then you should not be wearing a cloth mask. Regarding your other point about the unvaccinated contributing to the spread and more variants. Probably true. People in this thread particularly like to use this argument of the unvaccinated prolonging the pandemic or how we will never end this as long as the unvaccinated are around. Maybe I am wrong but it's my understanding that most experts have already resigned to the fact that we are not going to eradicate COVID with herd immunity and it's here for the long-term with or without vaccine mandates. If there was compelling evidence that we could eradicate COVID with a vaccine mandate I might even jump on board for that.
It isn't "probably" true, it is well documented. That isn't even remotely up for debate.
An idea doesn't need to be 100% effective and perfect in order to still be a good idea. The fact that vax mandates might not fully eliminate covid doesn't mean we may as well just have no mandate at all. There is still a huge benefit. We are already seeing lots of studies being done showing that the number of people who say they will not be vaccinated is way bigger than the number who stick to their guns. Many people are bending the knee, as we all knew they would. Very few people are so antivax that they will throw their livelihood away. More and more people are getting vaccinated and that means more and more people are going to have better health outcomes if they DO get covid. And those people will spread less and overall be a directly better situation. Complete elimination is not the only situation where a vax mandate is a net positive.
And since there is still absolutely no reason against the vax mandate (since it accommodates medical conditions), alternatives make no sense.
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my friend’s aunt just got fired as a nurse. Can’t imagine throwing away my career over this
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On September 30 2021 04:20 Mohdoo wrote:
my friend’s aunt just got fired as a nurse. Can’t imagine throwing away my career over this
It's a gutsy move to be willing to fire tens of thousands of healthcare workers in the middle of a pandemic. I'm not sure about the messaging it sends to people that think the pandemic is being overblown if they are willing to part ways with so many healthcare workers in the middle of it. I suspect they don't care about the messaging anymore because they have given up on the carrots.
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On September 30 2021 05:36 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2021 04:20 Mohdoo wrote:
my friend’s aunt just got fired as a nurse. Can’t imagine throwing away my career over this It's a gutsy move to be willing to fire tens of thousands of healthcare workers in the middle of a pandemic. I'm not sure about the messaging it sends to people that think the pandemic is being overblown if they are willing to part ways with so many healthcare workers in the middle of it. I suspect they don't care about the messaging anymore because they have given up on the carrots.
It's definitely a catch-22; do you keep those workers because you need as many people helping as possible, or do you remove those workers because they make things less safe than hypothetical replacements who are vaccinated? Depending on the context and the spin, the optics can end up being bad either way, although personally, I'm happy they enforced their policy.
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On September 29 2021 20:15 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2021 14:54 BlackJack wrote:On September 29 2021 07:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 29 2021 06:42 BlackJack wrote:On September 29 2021 05:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 29 2021 05:09 BlackJack wrote:On September 28 2021 21:48 NewSunshine wrote:On September 28 2021 11:52 BlackJack wrote:On September 28 2021 09:08 NewSunshine wrote:
If you think it's some kind of nefarious "government encroachment" when it tells people there are public health standards they plan on enforcing, I have bad news for you in that that is both the government's job, and long supported by precedent in various health-focused government organizations. We don't consider it government encroachment when we say that someone's place of business is subject to health and safety inspections, we consider that an important standard. The objection is that there is a difference between "employees must wash hands before returning to work" and "employees must be vaccinated before returning to work." It's not "logically inconsistent" to agree with one and not the other. The fact that you're okay with the government implementing some health and safety standards doesn't mean you automatically have to approve of every new health and safety standard. It's not an all-or-nothing where you have to either be okay with vaccine passports or be okay with Typhoid Mary cooking your dinner. Of course there's a difference between vaccines and washing your hands, that's why you're using that example. OSHA has exercised their authority already in the face of the smallpox epidemic to require vaccination, in addition to other substantial health and safety standards that go above and beyond whether people have the decency to wash their hands. Of course, if you're against the vaccine, this would seem like an overreach, and I'd understand that. The science is what it is, the way forward is a gravity issue. I can't help it if that upsets you. For the record, I'm not "against the vaccine." I got my first shot in Dec. 2020, only days after it was approved for emergency use. I encourage everyone I know to get vaccinated. Being against vaccine mandates and being against the vaccine isn't the same thing. What is the key difference that makes you against vaccine mandates, while simultaneously being for other sanitation/health/safety mandates? Why is a vaccine mandate an example of unacceptable government encroachment, while the other mandates are acceptable government encroachments? And are you against all vaccine mandates, or just for covid? Bodily autonomy, mostly. No, I don't have a blanket opposition to a vaccine mandate just as I don't have a blanket opposition to government lockdowns. My opposition is due to what COVID turned out to be. Very few children are dying of COVID and very few vaccinated adults are dying of COVID. Less than a typical flu season. If children were dying en masse I'd be all for holding people down and vaccinating them. But the data is pretty overwhelming: deaths from COVID (USA) are occurring almost exclusively in unvaccinated adults who have had the opportunity to protect themselves. Frankly, for me it's not a compelling argument to hold people down and inoculate them for their own good. People do stupid things at the expense of their health and longevity all the time and I don't really care. Thanks for clarifying. Are you against mask mandates as well? Would that infringe upon one's bodily autonomy enough to be an issue, too? Or is a mask mandate an acceptable amount of infringement? And also, while I agree with you / the data that most deaths (and hospitalizations, too!) are of unvaccinated adults (rather than children or vaccinated adults), there are still the issues of breakthrough cases and the perpetuation of covid, which are both primarily enabled by unvaccinated people. Unvaccinated people are more likely to become infected and infect others, which makes their vaccinated neighbors/families/friends/colleagues more susceptible, and it permits the virus to continue to survive and spread and thrive and mutate into additional strains, which may very well be resistant to outdated vaccines (again, endangering the vaccinated population). So unvaccinated people are not only putting themselves at risk, but they are presently putting vaccinated at risk too, and they'll continue to be putting everyone at risk for as long as covid is around. We already see this, as our vaccines are less effective against newer strains like the delta variant. Thoughts? I don't really care about mask mandates. Whining about having to cover your nose and mouth seems like the most trivial thing to claim to be oppressed over. But I also eye-roll at the people that lecture other people about about mask-wearing while they themselves wear cloth masks. Personally I only wear hospital -style surgical masks. I believe the science is pretty clear that they do a better job at stopping droplet transmission than cloth masks. They are also only minimally less comfortable than cloth masks at worst. They are cheap and widely available. It seems like if you support mask mandates to prevent transmission then you should not be wearing a cloth mask. Regarding your other point about the unvaccinated contributing to the spread and more variants. Probably true. People in this thread particularly like to use this argument of the unvaccinated prolonging the pandemic or how we will never end this as long as the unvaccinated are around. Maybe I am wrong but it's my understanding that most experts have already resigned to the fact that we are not going to eradicate COVID with herd immunity and it's here for the long-term with or without vaccine mandates. If there was compelling evidence that we could eradicate COVID with a vaccine mandate I might even jump on board for that. Yeah I agree with you that wearing a mask is incredibly trivial, and that wearing the *proper* mask (and wearing it correctly, too!) are super important as well. That being said, I find getting vaccinated to be even less of a hassle than wearing a mask. Buying and wearing masks every day, taking them on and off, making sure they stay clean, not being able to see people's faces, etc. vs. getting a few free shots? I've heard a reasonable complaint that some people can't take off work for the few days needed for vaccinations, but the simple counterargument is that infected, unvaccinated people are forced to take off many more days for work. I think it's definitely fair to say that getting an annual shot or two is far less oppressive than being forced to cover half your face every day. Thoughts?
I considered it a privilege to get the COVID vaccine, not a hassle. I didn't miss any work and I had zero side effects minus a little anxiety.
But on the whole, no, I consider it much less oppressive and much less of an assault on bodily autonomy to require mask-wearing than to require an injection into your body. It basically comes down to the giving up liberty for safety idea. Except here the safety you are getting is marginal at best. I already feel quite protected from COVID-19 after being double vaccinated and I'll probably get a booster soon. Basically every adult has the same opportunity for this protection. So it just comes down to how much authority I would want to give to the government over this. I agree with Magic Powers that during times of crisis is when the government is most eagerly looking for ways to increase their power and once they have more power they don't like to give it up. Dying of terrorism is also incredibly rare but it got people to go along with the Patriot Act and foreign wars that cost trillions. I think these are the times you have to be most vigilant about what the government is doing.
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On September 30 2021 04:20 Mohdoo wrote:
my friend’s aunt just got fired as a nurse. Can’t imagine throwing away my career over this
That's pretty dumb indeed, but let me tell you about the latest trend in my home country of Bulgaria - paying to receive a vaccination certificate without actually getting the vaccine. People opt to pay for a fake vaccination certificate instead of getting a free vaccine. Depending on the region the rates allegedly go from 100€ to 500€...
+ Show Spoiler +Disclaimer: My father made the signs for the Covid testing centre in the hospital in the small town he lives in. The nurse at the testing centre told him that for 150€ he can get a vaccination certificate from them. Her exact words were: "For 150€ the doctor will pour out the vaccine in front of you." I am certain that my father did not make this up. I am not so sure about the nurse. Either way, it seems to be an actual problem in Bulgaria (and in apparently in Greece, too, if you google for it.) Sources: [Bulgarian only: from "reputable" source (at least as reputable as it gets in Bulgaria)] + Show Spoiler +
On a different note, I am the last person in my closest family circle that has not been infected with Covid -.- I got my second shot with Biontech yesterday (Only minor pain at the injection site the first time around. Seems to be the same so far after the second injection)
- My cousin and her husband got Covid last winter. They aren't actually Covid or vaccine deniers afaik. They got infected last Winter when her husband met a friend at a bar (in Dallas, Texas -.-) and brought the virus home. He had fairly rough two weeks feeling like shit and lying in bed for the most part). She only had a week of not being able to taste anything at all.
- My father got sick for around 2 weeks early Spring this year. Not a denier in any way. He simply did not care that much about it. He was actually thinking about getting a vaccine but was too lazy to get a shot at the earlist possible moment and got sick a bit after vaccines became widely available. He had fever and some minor-to-medium discomfort for two weeks, but nothing too bad.
- My mother got sick two weeks ago - pretty rough cough still as well as general discomfort; she is isolated in Bulgaria currently. She probably got sick while travelling in the usual Bulgarian desease incubator - 7 hour bus drive during which nobody is expected to wear a maks. Not that it would have mattered much since there is no ventilation whatsoever (and I bet she is not the only one that got sick on that bus -.-) I have heard some grand wisdom from her such as "Covid is not the plague", "I rather trust my body than the vaccine", and so much more which I am not able to quote verbatim anymore... The sad part is, I cannot chalk this off to being "too stupid". As a matter of fact, she generally acts in not only a reasonable manner but has achieved way more than people in the same cirumstances as her + Show Spoiler +To put in shortly, she emigrated from Bulgaria to Germany before Bulgaria was even in the EU (an extremely difficult task back then). She managed to claw her way out from being 20k in the gutter (you cannot imagine the difficulties of earning money as a non-EU immigrant back then - and probably to this day as well) to being solid "middle-class" nowadays. While other women (friends) in her position peaked as being "mail-order" brides, settled for cleaning till this very day, got themselves pregnant by a German with a secure job, slept their way up a corporate ladder, etc, she started her own accounting firm and moved up the ladder (all the while being a single-mother with 0 support from my father and starting off as being a waitress and a housecleaner
I absolutely blame Facebook and Youtube for her take on Covid vaccines (she is not against the traditional vaccines for children btw). The amount of crap you can find on these two sites is absolutely mind-boggling... Watch a couple videos on herbal remedies for medical issues and next thing you know you are watching videos about teleporting monks and the Rothshields/illuminati/masons trying to control the world with mask mandates (especially if you search in Bulgarian)
- My mother managed to infect my aunt's boyfriend, who is a doctor and certainly not a Covid denier (too much exposure to sick people to ever deny Covid). He may actually not even be a vaccine denier. He seems to just be the kind of person who does not give a fuck about such things (a common stance in Bulgaria as far as I can tell). He simply chooses to ignore any issues with Covid, even more so than my father. The position seems to be - if I get sick, it is my problem. He cannot be bothered to get vaccinated or avoid situations that could get him infected. He is currently sick and so far he seems to be doing well (some fever only). On a side note, he got himself a fake negative Covid test when he wanted to travel to Turkey - the perks of being a doctor in a small town. He actually wasn't infected when he got the tested, but there was no way for him to know this... To be fair, he was not risking to infect random people, since he was just driving to pick up my aunt from the airport. The point is, getting fake Covid certificates in Bulgaria is common and easy to do.
- My aunt (also a doctor btw -.-) just got tested positive yesterday - infected by her boyfriend apparently. She is another person that I would hardly call "too stupid" generally. Long story short: she grew up during communism (and was just "another enemy of the regime" (mostly for simply existing) like everyone else in my family; she had the questionable "pleasure" of getting beaten by my alcoholic uncle on a regular basis. Still managed to escape all her pre-existing problems to do quite well for herself nowadays. Somehow, she is the kind of person which believes that Covid scanners "show that your hands glow a different color" if not vaccinated -.- (Another big "Fuck you, facebook" is in order here -.-). For accuracy's sake: as of yet she does not have any lung issues, but she says that her whole body is aching, to the point that she cannot even lie in bed without being in pain.
None of this is meant to be a part of any discussions in this thread. I just thought that it fits with the overall title of the thread - "Coronavirus and You".
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@ggrrg I very much appreciate that you're sharing these anecdotes. Sad to hear about all the trouble your family has gone through or is still going through.
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EPT
