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On August 21 2021 16:12 RKC wrote: So younger generations have more debt to bear as they enjoy more benefits created by previous generations (eg technology). Surely there has to be set off with the negatives left by the latter as well (eg war)? Is there some accounting method to measure the amount of debt or credit a person has in a particular society?
Seems suspiciously like a 'boomer' thinking. Nothing derogatory about that. Just an observation...
No, what you have is the effect of people making the world better. So long as you do that, you earned what you were given. Make an honest effort to improve the world and you’ve done your part.
Why aren't you in Africa saving little children? You know, for the sake of "making the world better" as per your words?
The island in the pacific is too far away for him to banish the Africans to. Once he finds a suitable island in the Atlantic he will "help" the African people.
You're putting words in my mouth. There is no theoretical island, just the ocean. Since these people have decided they don't have a moral obligation to not be a danger to others, it follows that society no longer has an obligation to protect them. Since we already have examples of unvaccinated people taking up ICU beds preventing vaccinated people from getting medical care from non-covid related issues, the problem is already apparent. They are making a conscious choice to be a liability. Big nono in the Mohdoo kingdom. And since the anti-vaxer has decided to let fate decide whether they live or die, being set adrift at sea should not be an issue. They will of course be allowed to bring whatever supplies they want to. Prior to being deported, they will have plenty of time to collect their things and get their business in order. They can also choose to sell their belongings to help make some fancy upgrades to their new home.
Remember when we all joked about how Trump wanted his followers to drink bleach to cure covid? Well, Fox News has been telling their viewers to literally drink poison, and guess what Mississippi has been up to, lately!?
(Start watching at the 12-minute mark for around 4 minutes.)
Florida: Can anyone out-Florida us? Mississippi: Hold my horse dewormer.
My wife is a veterinarian and I've never seen her facepalm so hard.
On August 22 2021 01:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Remember when we all joked about how Trump wanted his followers to drink bleach to cure covid? Well, Fox News has been telling their viewers to literally drink poison, and guess what Mississippi has been up to, lately!?
(Start watching at the 12-minute mark for around 4 minutes.)
On August 22 2021 01:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Remember when we all joked about how Trump wanted his followers to drink bleach to cure covid? Well, Fox News has been telling their viewers to literally drink poison, and guess what Mississippi has been up to, lately!?
(Start watching at the 12-minute mark for around 4 minutes.)
On August 21 2021 16:12 RKC wrote: So younger generations have more debt to bear as they enjoy more benefits created by previous generations (eg technology). Surely there has to be set off with the negatives left by the latter as well (eg war)? Is there some accounting method to measure the amount of debt or credit a person has in a particular society?
Seems suspiciously like a 'boomer' thinking. Nothing derogatory about that. Just an observation...
No, what you have is the effect of people making the world better. So long as you do that, you earned what you were given. Make an honest effort to improve the world and you’ve done your part.
Why aren't you in Africa saving little children? You know, for the sake of "making the world better" as per your words?
The island in the pacific is too far away for him to banish the Africans to. Once he finds a suitable island in the Atlantic he will "help" the African people.
You're putting words in my mouth. There is no theoretical island, just the ocean. Since these people have decided they don't have a moral obligation to not be a danger to others, it follows that society no longer has an obligation to protect them. Since we already have examples of unvaccinated people taking up ICU beds preventing vaccinated people from getting medical care from non-covid related issues, the problem is already apparent. They are making a conscious choice to be a liability. Big nono in the Mohdoo kingdom. And since the anti-vaxer has decided to let fate decide whether they live or die, being set adrift at sea should not be an issue. They will of course be allowed to bring whatever supplies they want to. Prior to being deported, they will have plenty of time to collect their things and get their business in order. They can also choose to sell their belongings to help make some fancy upgrades to their new home.
I'd like to hear some things from you:
1) What your thoughts are on vaccinated people that think they're immortal, travel around, contract covid and return to spread it anew amongst their communities.
2) All of the people who contracted covid and lived before vaccines were available.
3) What your thoughts are on obese people taking up beds in hospitals after suffering very preventable health complications.
On August 21 2021 16:12 RKC wrote: So younger generations have more debt to bear as they enjoy more benefits created by previous generations (eg technology). Surely there has to be set off with the negatives left by the latter as well (eg war)? Is there some accounting method to measure the amount of debt or credit a person has in a particular society?
Seems suspiciously like a 'boomer' thinking. Nothing derogatory about that. Just an observation...
No, what you have is the effect of people making the world better. So long as you do that, you earned what you were given. Make an honest effort to improve the world and you’ve done your part.
Why aren't you in Africa saving little children? You know, for the sake of "making the world better" as per your words?
The island in the pacific is too far away for him to banish the Africans to. Once he finds a suitable island in the Atlantic he will "help" the African people.
You're putting words in my mouth. There is no theoretical island, just the ocean. Since these people have decided they don't have a moral obligation to not be a danger to others, it follows that society no longer has an obligation to protect them. Since we already have examples of unvaccinated people taking up ICU beds preventing vaccinated people from getting medical care from non-covid related issues, the problem is already apparent. They are making a conscious choice to be a liability. Big nono in the Mohdoo kingdom. And since the anti-vaxer has decided to let fate decide whether they live or die, being set adrift at sea should not be an issue. They will of course be allowed to bring whatever supplies they want to. Prior to being deported, they will have plenty of time to collect their things and get their business in order. They can also choose to sell their belongings to help make some fancy upgrades to their new home.
I'd like to hear some things from you:
1) What your thoughts are on vaccinated people that think they're immortal, travel around, contract covid and return to spread it anew amongst their communities.
2) All of the people who contracted covid and lived before vaccines were available.
3) What your thoughts are on obese people taking up beds in hospitals after suffering very preventable health complications.
1) They are dummies but it is tough because a lot of people who don't have symptoms can spread. I sympathize with people who are vaccinated and spread while not showing symptoms. Hard to imagine what they could do differently. Someone who is showing symptoms is of course an immoral piece of garbage if they are traveling around.
2) Unfortunate. Many of these people had their livelihood dangled in front of them and couldn't work from home. I sympathize with them. They should have been given UBI until it was safe.
3) I want to live in a society where we can support those people and generally we can. Obesity is mainly a psychological illness and there's a lot of literature out there about treatment. In a better world, obese people would have the opportunity to see a psychologist for free to help them break their addiction. If there were an obesity vaccine, anyone who didn't take it would be failing morally. But since the psychology of obesity is very complex, I see it as a psychological issue that should be dealt similarly to drug abuse.
On August 21 2021 16:12 RKC wrote: So younger generations have more debt to bear as they enjoy more benefits created by previous generations (eg technology). Surely there has to be set off with the negatives left by the latter as well (eg war)? Is there some accounting method to measure the amount of debt or credit a person has in a particular society?
Seems suspiciously like a 'boomer' thinking. Nothing derogatory about that. Just an observation...
No, what you have is the effect of people making the world better. So long as you do that, you earned what you were given. Make an honest effort to improve the world and you’ve done your part.
Why aren't you in Africa saving little children? You know, for the sake of "making the world better" as per your words?
The island in the pacific is too far away for him to banish the Africans to. Once he finds a suitable island in the Atlantic he will "help" the African people.
You're putting words in my mouth. There is no theoretical island, just the ocean. Since these people have decided they don't have a moral obligation to not be a danger to others, it follows that society no longer has an obligation to protect them. Since we already have examples of unvaccinated people taking up ICU beds preventing vaccinated people from getting medical care from non-covid related issues, the problem is already apparent. They are making a conscious choice to be a liability. Big nono in the Mohdoo kingdom. And since the anti-vaxer has decided to let fate decide whether they live or die, being set adrift at sea should not be an issue. They will of course be allowed to bring whatever supplies they want to. Prior to being deported, they will have plenty of time to collect their things and get their business in order. They can also choose to sell their belongings to help make some fancy upgrades to their new home.
I'd like to hear some things from you:
1) What your thoughts are on vaccinated people that think they're immortal, travel around, contract covid and return to spread it anew amongst their communities.
2) All of the people who contracted covid and lived before vaccines were available.
3) What your thoughts are on obese people taking up beds in hospitals after suffering very preventable health complications.
1. I actually disagreed with this, entirely at the time. Don’t think I was at all alone here. Even without new variants, the spread of which were clearly helped by international travel, it was pretty clear relatively quickly that the vaccines were effective, but not a magic bullet either.
People’s convictions seem to become incoherent on this issue, is one concerned about the pandemic or not? My proposed compromise of ‘ok you can go off on your foreign jaunts but a rigidly enforced quarantine at both ends of your journey’ was met with ‘oh but it’s been tough, people need a break etc etc’.
Ok, but I don’t see how that’s congruent with saying that people who don’t want vaccinated should be made societal lepers who can’t access businesses in their local communities.
3. Preventable, but easily preventable? While not intentional, our whole society is set up to make many people obese, or have addiction problems etc, and for many fighting those is rather bloody difficult.
Vaccination is as close to as easy a presentation method as exists. I would go to some rather extreme lengths to get shot with a bipolar miracle cure, which I have to actively manage and from which all my other preventable health problems stem from.
On August 21 2021 16:12 RKC wrote: So younger generations have more debt to bear as they enjoy more benefits created by previous generations (eg technology). Surely there has to be set off with the negatives left by the latter as well (eg war)? Is there some accounting method to measure the amount of debt or credit a person has in a particular society?
Seems suspiciously like a 'boomer' thinking. Nothing derogatory about that. Just an observation...
No, what you have is the effect of people making the world better. So long as you do that, you earned what you were given. Make an honest effort to improve the world and you’ve done your part.
Why aren't you in Africa saving little children? You know, for the sake of "making the world better" as per your words?
The island in the pacific is too far away for him to banish the Africans to. Once he finds a suitable island in the Atlantic he will "help" the African people.
You're putting words in my mouth. There is no theoretical island, just the ocean. Since these people have decided they don't have a moral obligation to not be a danger to others, it follows that society no longer has an obligation to protect them. Since we already have examples of unvaccinated people taking up ICU beds preventing vaccinated people from getting medical care from non-covid related issues, the problem is already apparent. They are making a conscious choice to be a liability. Big nono in the Mohdoo kingdom. And since the anti-vaxer has decided to let fate decide whether they live or die, being set adrift at sea should not be an issue. They will of course be allowed to bring whatever supplies they want to. Prior to being deported, they will have plenty of time to collect their things and get their business in order. They can also choose to sell their belongings to help make some fancy upgrades to their new home.
I'd like to hear some things from you:
1) What your thoughts are on vaccinated people that think they're immortal, travel around, contract covid and return to spread it anew amongst their communities.
2) All of the people who contracted covid and lived before vaccines were available.
3) What your thoughts are on obese people taking up beds in hospitals after suffering very preventable health complications.
1) They are dummies but it is tough because a lot of people who don't have symptoms can spread. I sympathize with people who are vaccinated and spread while not showing symptoms. Hard to imagine what they could do differently. Someone who is showing symptoms is of course an immoral piece of garbage if they are traveling around.
2) Unfortunate. Many of these people had their livelihood dangled in front of them and couldn't work from home. I sympathize with them. They should have been given UBI until it was safe.
3) I want to live in a society where we can support those people and generally we can. Obesity is mainly a psychological illness and there's a lot of literature out there about treatment. In a better world, obese people would have the opportunity to see a psychologist for free to help them break their addiction. If there were an obesity vaccine, anyone who didn't take it would be failing morally. But since the psychology of obesity is very complex, I see it as a psychological issue that should be dealt similarly to drug abuse.
Why do you want to live in a society that is charitable to fast people, but not to unvaccinated ones?
And if obesity is too far, smoking, drinking in excess, extreme sports. All choices with a non-negligible chance of landing you in a hospital bed. Dump anybody who goes skydiving or downhill skiing on a raft in the Pacific?
On August 21 2021 16:12 RKC wrote: So younger generations have more debt to bear as they enjoy more benefits created by previous generations (eg technology). Surely there has to be set off with the negatives left by the latter as well (eg war)? Is there some accounting method to measure the amount of debt or credit a person has in a particular society?
Seems suspiciously like a 'boomer' thinking. Nothing derogatory about that. Just an observation...
No, what you have is the effect of people making the world better. So long as you do that, you earned what you were given. Make an honest effort to improve the world and you’ve done your part.
Why aren't you in Africa saving little children? You know, for the sake of "making the world better" as per your words?
The island in the pacific is too far away for him to banish the Africans to. Once he finds a suitable island in the Atlantic he will "help" the African people.
You're putting words in my mouth. There is no theoretical island, just the ocean. Since these people have decided they don't have a moral obligation to not be a danger to others, it follows that society no longer has an obligation to protect them. Since we already have examples of unvaccinated people taking up ICU beds preventing vaccinated people from getting medical care from non-covid related issues, the problem is already apparent. They are making a conscious choice to be a liability. Big nono in the Mohdoo kingdom. And since the anti-vaxer has decided to let fate decide whether they live or die, being set adrift at sea should not be an issue. They will of course be allowed to bring whatever supplies they want to. Prior to being deported, they will have plenty of time to collect their things and get their business in order. They can also choose to sell their belongings to help make some fancy upgrades to their new home.
I'd like to hear some things from you:
1) What your thoughts are on vaccinated people that think they're immortal, travel around, contract covid and return to spread it anew amongst their communities.
2) All of the people who contracted covid and lived before vaccines were available.
3) What your thoughts are on obese people taking up beds in hospitals after suffering very preventable health complications.
1) They are dummies but it is tough because a lot of people who don't have symptoms can spread. I sympathize with people who are vaccinated and spread while not showing symptoms. Hard to imagine what they could do differently. Someone who is showing symptoms is of course an immoral piece of garbage if they are traveling around.
2) Unfortunate. Many of these people had their livelihood dangled in front of them and couldn't work from home. I sympathize with them. They should have been given UBI until it was safe.
3) I want to live in a society where we can support those people and generally we can. Obesity is mainly a psychological illness and there's a lot of literature out there about treatment. In a better world, obese people would have the opportunity to see a psychologist for free to help them break their addiction. If there were an obesity vaccine, anyone who didn't take it would be failing morally. But since the psychology of obesity is very complex, I see it as a psychological issue that should be dealt similarly to drug abuse.
Why do you want to live in a society that is charitable to fast people, but not to unvaccinated ones?
And if obesity is too far, smoking, drinking in excess, extreme sports. All choices with a non-negligible chance of landing you in a hospital bed. Dump anybody who goes skydiving or downhill skiing on a raft in the Pacific?
Fat people only spread their disease by normalizing the behavior. I wish that were true of covid.
On August 21 2021 16:12 RKC wrote: So younger generations have more debt to bear as they enjoy more benefits created by previous generations (eg technology). Surely there has to be set off with the negatives left by the latter as well (eg war)? Is there some accounting method to measure the amount of debt or credit a person has in a particular society?
Seems suspiciously like a 'boomer' thinking. Nothing derogatory about that. Just an observation...
No, what you have is the effect of people making the world better. So long as you do that, you earned what you were given. Make an honest effort to improve the world and you’ve done your part.
Why aren't you in Africa saving little children? You know, for the sake of "making the world better" as per your words?
The island in the pacific is too far away for him to banish the Africans to. Once he finds a suitable island in the Atlantic he will "help" the African people.
You're putting words in my mouth. There is no theoretical island, just the ocean. Since these people have decided they don't have a moral obligation to not be a danger to others, it follows that society no longer has an obligation to protect them. Since we already have examples of unvaccinated people taking up ICU beds preventing vaccinated people from getting medical care from non-covid related issues, the problem is already apparent. They are making a conscious choice to be a liability. Big nono in the Mohdoo kingdom. And since the anti-vaxer has decided to let fate decide whether they live or die, being set adrift at sea should not be an issue. They will of course be allowed to bring whatever supplies they want to. Prior to being deported, they will have plenty of time to collect their things and get their business in order. They can also choose to sell their belongings to help make some fancy upgrades to their new home.
I'd like to hear some things from you:
1) What your thoughts are on vaccinated people that think they're immortal, travel around, contract covid and return to spread it anew amongst their communities.
2) All of the people who contracted covid and lived before vaccines were available.
3) What your thoughts are on obese people taking up beds in hospitals after suffering very preventable health complications.
1) They are dummies but it is tough because a lot of people who don't have symptoms can spread. I sympathize with people who are vaccinated and spread while not showing symptoms. Hard to imagine what they could do differently. Someone who is showing symptoms is of course an immoral piece of garbage if they are traveling around.
2) Unfortunate. Many of these people had their livelihood dangled in front of them and couldn't work from home. I sympathize with them. They should have been given UBI until it was safe.
3) I want to live in a society where we can support those people and generally we can. Obesity is mainly a psychological illness and there's a lot of literature out there about treatment. In a better world, obese people would have the opportunity to see a psychologist for free to help them break their addiction. If there were an obesity vaccine, anyone who didn't take it would be failing morally. But since the psychology of obesity is very complex, I see it as a psychological issue that should be dealt similarly to drug abuse.
Why do you want to live in a society that is charitable to fast people, but not to unvaccinated ones?
And if obesity is too far, smoking, drinking in excess, extreme sports. All choices with a non-negligible chance of landing you in a hospital bed. Dump anybody who goes skydiving or downhill skiing on a raft in the Pacific?
Smoking is cool though.
Smokers, at least take the hit, we are taxed out the absolute arse for it, at least in this country.
Most smokers, myself included accept the tax as a reasonable price for indulging in a silly, silly habit due to the associated increases costs on wider society for our smoking-induced health problems.
Also, counter-intuitively, at least on the healthcare costs we may, in combination with high sales taxes actually help out the NHS. Costs raise exponentially when we get into dementia territory, and we’re considerably more likely to check out of this mortal coil before then.
Also smokers have by and large conceded that passive smoking is a thing, and not just because it’s mandated at this stage, it’s largely considered a reasonable accommodation to not damage the health of others who don’t share our addiction.
Obese people pay the price in different ways, namely in societies that are still rather superficial, and where being fat is associated with laziness well, it’s not great to be obese. Without even stepping into negative outcomes health wise you’re already suffering negative consequences.
Anti-vaxxers, at least the vast majority of ones I encounter, on the other hand want to risk public health, and face no negative consequences whatsoever for doing so.
This doesn’t necessarily mean I’m chartering a plane for them to Mohdoo IslandTM just yet, and I’m very much broad brushing here. There is a difference between doing something that is not optimal and conceding it’s not optimal, or accepting the consequences and the trade offs, versus a mentality of personal freedom without personal consequences, which seems widely espoused.
There’s also a relative lack of smokers, drinkers and obese people running around claiming these things aren’t unhealthy and it’s a big conspiracy.
On August 22 2021 03:39 Mohdoo wrote: 3) I want to live in a society where we can support those people and generally we can. Obesity is mainly a psychological illness and there's a lot of literature out there about treatment. In a better world, obese people would have the opportunity to see a psychologist for free to help them break their addiction. If there were an obesity vaccine, anyone who didn't take it would be failing morally. But since the psychology of obesity is very complex, I see it as a psychological issue that should be dealt similarly to drug abuse.
Obesity is actually mostly caused by the food industry, more specifically by ultra-processed food. It doesn't trigger the feeling of satiety nearly as strongly as organic and fresh food does. This results in overeating. Obesity hardly existed in the US before the late 20th century. People's diets have shifted from mostly organic to mostly processed (it tastes great, it sells great, it's everywhere, and so it becomes normal), and during that same time period obesity has risen to unseen levels. Meanwhile general overweight has stayed roughly level during that same time period.
This goes completely against the notion that obesity is psychologically caused. Your solution would be to send people to psychologists or give them an obesity vaccine, and you'd be blaming them for not taking it, calling them "immoral". Considering your hot takes are (ironically) highly unscientific (which you harshly condemn in others), it doesn't surprise me that you're also a fan of forcing people to get injected against their will. Your ideas ironically appear to not be any more rational than the objections of anti-vaxxers.
Most smokers happily puff into people's faces. It's only when laws got strict by mandating smoking zones did they started being conscious enough to step away from non-smokers when puffing up. For the better half of my earlier life when such laws weren't a thing, I as a non-smoker had to get away from smokers (and lose some friends along the way). Even without scientific research, it's quite common-sensical that the smoke that endanger your own lungs can endangers others if puffed into their faces. They just didn't care. My choice, it's a free world, you don't like the smoke, then you buzz off somewhere else - that's their mentality.
Point is, people generally don't give a shit about endangering other people's health. Before and after COVID. That's what public health policy is for. Stop people from being a threat to others. And yet, there will always be people who resist or still don't give a shit.
On August 22 2021 14:06 RKC wrote: Most smokers happily puff into people's faces. It's only when laws got strict by mandating smoking zones did they started being conscious enough to step away from non-smokers when puffing up. For the better half of my earlier life when such laws weren't a thing, I as a non-smoker had to get away from smokers (and lose some friends along the way). Even without scientific research, it's quite common-sensical that the smoke that endanger your own lungs can endangers others if puffed into their faces. They just didn't care. My choice, it's a free world, you don't like the smoke, then you buzz off somewhere else - that's their mentality.
Point is, people generally don't give a shit about endangering other people's health. Before and after COVID. That's what public health policy is for. Stop people from being a threat to others. And yet, there will always be people who resist or still don't give a shit.
Do they? Hey not my experience, but it’s trading anecdotes at the end of the day.
Conditioning does work though, via mandates. You can subsequently take the mandate away, but the period of being forced to do x makes one consider the rationale behind doing x, you may come to agree with it, or it simply becomes routine. You may be jolted into reconsidering a position, or if you’re not well, you are forced to comply for so long it becomes second nature.
I only started smoking myself once bans indoors were a thing, even in houses where others are cool and smoke indoors I’ll pop outside regardless because it feels too weird.
Anyway I’m not staunchly defending what is ultimately a dumb habit with negative externalities associated with it, merely arguing that ‘what about smokers?’ isn’t really a defence anti-vaccine advocates can use because smokers do the (roughly) equivalent things that are being asked of anti-vax folks already.
Everyone dies of something. Smoking, obesity, drugs, high risk behaviour generally means you get sick and die earlier. From a social point of view as long as "earlier" is past retirement age and you were able to work the health issues you get from your lifestyle is no issue and economically you are probably a net positive (especially smoking since it is also taxed very heavily).
Eliminating these risk factors would not require the need for hospital care, it would just mean you had more older people with age associated diseases instead of younger ones with life style disease.
Also more importantly the current health care system is built around handling the load of sick people our society produces and that includes smoking and obesity (it would be just as big but structured differently if no one smoked and everyone was fit).
Covid is a pandemic and not equivalent to any of these factors. First of all putting others at risk is actually produces more disease, disease which the health care system is not set up to handle from the first place. Second covid makes you sick and take up expensive care slots. You could argue that it mainly kills older people past retirement age which could somewhat compensate economically for how expensive ICU care is but it's not that lethal and it makes a lot of people sick so obviously it's not even close to being zero sum. It's also not a lifestyle factor you choose yourself. A high risk "covid" lifestyle with antivax threatens not just yourself but many others. Second hand smoking is not even close to being as dangerous and we still regulate the shit out of that.
Anti-vax people can cry all they want but covid is not the same thing as any of the false equivalents they bring up and it's perfectly fine for people to be both pissed off at them and for the government to impose restrictions that violate "their rights" as long as more than 51 % of the population agrees with them.
On August 21 2021 16:12 RKC wrote: So younger generations have more debt to bear as they enjoy more benefits created by previous generations (eg technology). Surely there has to be set off with the negatives left by the latter as well (eg war)? Is there some accounting method to measure the amount of debt or credit a person has in a particular society?
Seems suspiciously like a 'boomer' thinking. Nothing derogatory about that. Just an observation...
No, what you have is the effect of people making the world better. So long as you do that, you earned what you were given. Make an honest effort to improve the world and you’ve done your part.
Why aren't you in Africa saving little children? You know, for the sake of "making the world better" as per your words?
The island in the pacific is too far away for him to banish the Africans to. Once he finds a suitable island in the Atlantic he will "help" the African people.
You're putting words in my mouth. There is no theoretical island, just the ocean. Since these people have decided they don't have a moral obligation to not be a danger to others, it follows that society no longer has an obligation to protect them. Since we already have examples of unvaccinated people taking up ICU beds preventing vaccinated people from getting medical care from non-covid related issues, the problem is already apparent. They are making a conscious choice to be a liability. Big nono in the Mohdoo kingdom. And since the anti-vaxer has decided to let fate decide whether they live or die, being set adrift at sea should not be an issue. They will of course be allowed to bring whatever supplies they want to. Prior to being deported, they will have plenty of time to collect their things and get their business in order. They can also choose to sell their belongings to help make some fancy upgrades to their new home.
I'd like to hear some things from you:
1) What your thoughts are on vaccinated people that think they're immortal, travel around, contract covid and return to spread it anew amongst their communities.
2) All of the people who contracted covid and lived before vaccines were available.
3) What your thoughts are on obese people taking up beds in hospitals after suffering very preventable health complications.
1) They are dummies but it is tough because a lot of people who don't have symptoms can spread. I sympathize with people who are vaccinated and spread while not showing symptoms. Hard to imagine what they could do differently. Someone who is showing symptoms is of course an immoral piece of garbage if they are traveling around.
2) Unfortunate. Many of these people had their livelihood dangled in front of them and couldn't work from home. I sympathize with them. They should have been given UBI until it was safe.
3) I want to live in a society where we can support those people and generally we can. Obesity is mainly a psychological illness and there's a lot of literature out there about treatment. In a better world, obese people would have the opportunity to see a psychologist for free to help them break their addiction. If there were an obesity vaccine, anyone who didn't take it would be failing morally. But since the psychology of obesity is very complex, I see it as a psychological issue that should be dealt similarly to drug abuse.
Why do you want to live in a society that is charitable to fast people, but not to unvaccinated ones?
And if obesity is too far, smoking, drinking in excess, extreme sports. All choices with a non-negligible chance of landing you in a hospital bed. Dump anybody who goes skydiving or downhill skiing on a raft in the Pacific?
Fat people only spread their disease by normalizing the behavior. I wish that were true of covid.
Right... but you already admitted that you feel a moral obligation to protect people from themselves and they shouldn't have bodily autonomy to refuse a vaccine. But now you're trying to justify your views by saying "covid is contagious but fatness isn't." A solid attempt at shifting the goal-posts.
On August 22 2021 21:01 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: Everyone dies of something. Smoking, obesity, drugs, high risk behaviour generally means you get sick and die earlier. From a social point of view as long as "earlier" is past retirement age and you were able to work the health issues you get from your lifestyle is no issue and economically you are probably a net positive (especially smoking since it is also taxed very heavily).
Eliminating these risk factors would not require the need for hospital care, it would just mean you had more older people with age associated diseases instead of younger ones with life style disease.
Also more importantly the current health care system is built around handling the load of sick people our society produces and that includes smoking and obesity (it would be just as big but structured differently if no one smoked and everyone was fit).
Covid is a pandemic and not equivalent to any of these factors. First of all putting others at risk is actually produces more disease, disease which the health care system is not set up to handle from the first place. Second covid makes you sick and take up expensive care slots. You could argue that it mainly kills older people past retirement age which could somewhat compensate economically for how expensive ICU care is but it's not that lethal and it makes a lot of people sick so obviously it's not even close to being zero sum. It's also not a lifestyle factor you choose yourself. A high risk "covid" lifestyle with antivax threatens not just yourself but many others. Second hand smoking is not even close to being as dangerous and we still regulate the shit out of that.
Anti-vax people can cry all they want but covid is not the same thing as any of the false equivalents they bring up and it's perfectly fine for people to be both pissed off at them and for the government to impose restrictions that violate "their rights" as long as more than 51 % of the population agrees with them.
Are you trying to argue that dying of smoking is less burdensome on the healthcare system than dying of COVID? Smokers with lung cancer, emphysema, COPD etc. are in and out of hospitals for years before they kick the bucket. People that die of COVID are dead within a month of contracting the disease. Hell, it's even in the names - the C in COPD stands for chronic and the A in SARS-COV-2 stands for acute. The idea that a death from an acute illness would cost more than a death from a chronic illness spits in the face of common sense so I hope you have some sources to back it up.
On August 22 2021 03:39 Mohdoo wrote: 1) They are dummies but it is tough because a lot of people who don't have symptoms can spread. I sympathize with people who are vaccinated and spread while not showing symptoms. Hard to imagine what they could do differently. Someone who is showing symptoms is of course an immoral piece of garbage if they are traveling around.
2) Unfortunate. Many of these people had their livelihood dangled in front of them and couldn't work from home. I sympathize with them. They should have been given UBI until it was safe.
3) I want to live in a society where we can support those people and generally we can. Obesity is mainly a psychological illness and there's a lot of literature out there about treatment. In a better world, obese people would have the opportunity to see a psychologist for free to help them break their addiction. If there were an obesity vaccine, anyone who didn't take it would be failing morally. But since the psychology of obesity is very complex, I see it as a psychological issue that should be dealt similarly to drug abuse.
1) What they could do differently is wear a mask. Not travel. You know, realise that we're in a situation that has been going on for nearly two years and act accordingly.
2) Should they vaccinate? Covid is a lot more contagious than you think. The official numbers are only people who have sought medical treatment or wilfully tested. Everyone that has had asymptomatic covid or has had to hide due to fear of losing a job doesn't show in them. That would also include people who only had the lighter symptoms like loss of smell etc. and didn't seek help.
3) Are you saying that rising rates of obesity in the west are because of psychological disorders? I find that hard to believe.
On August 22 2021 23:33 JimmiC wrote: TLDR: Both smoking and not vaxxing are bad for society, government should and is trying to reduce both behaviors.
Just FYI the EU travel certificate requires you to have either
1) Vaccinated 2) Negative covid test 3) Recovered from covid
It gives having had covid the same weight as being vaccinated. Like I said before, the actual number of people that have had it is a lot larger than the number in the official statistic. Unfortunately, that doesn't help our situation. You seem to have the belief that vaccinating everyone will. It will not. Vaccines for the segment of the population that's most at risk are critical towards preventing the highest amounts of deaths possible. However, vaccinating additional people after that will not be nearly as effective as things like: wearing a mask, washing your hands, not touching your face, not crowding indoors, avoiding people like the plague. Unfortunately a lot of people don't realise that, so we're having an uptick of new covid cases way before October has even started. Meh.
EPT
(I think I'm remembering right that you're a teacher)
