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Bisutopia19299 Posts
On July 19 2020 22:42 StalkerTL wrote:
So this goes into the discussion we had before in the thread. People latched onto one paragraph in the AAP's statement and ran with it. They saw the AAP say all kids do best in school and decided to use it as justification to re-open schools, ignoring the rest of statement that argues that there is no one size fits all solution and measures have to be implemented to ensure the safety of not only children but adults.
Not surprisingly at all, Florida's AAP has sent a letter to DeSantis stating just that. Kids need to go back to school but you can't open schools in Florida because coronavirus is not controlled in Florida. Kids go to school, get infected with coronavirus, bring it home, get parents sick and potentially put them out of work with long term illnesses or kill them. Its not a sustainable strategy without the virus being controlled. You don't have to eradicate it but you can't have 10,000 cases per day.
My mom is a 2nd grade teacher in her 60's here in Florida. I think it's ridiculous that everyone is concerned about kids, but no one seems to give a shit about teachers. The government should pay 100% for all teachers insurance if they plan on sending them in front of 12-32 students. I also can't believe teachers value themselves so little as to not protest going back or just quit. I wish people weren't so afraid of leaving their job and teaching in those conditions doesn't make you a hero. You can make more managing at Costco anyway and probably end up with equal or safer conditions.
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On July 20 2020 01:10 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2020 22:42 StalkerTL wrote:https://twitter.com/DWUhlfelderLaw/status/1284826943079284736So this goes into the discussion we had before in the thread. People latched onto one paragraph in the AAP's statement and ran with it. They saw the AAP say all kids do best in school and decided to use it as justification to re-open schools, ignoring the rest of statement that argues that there is no one size fits all solution and measures have to be implemented to ensure the safety of not only children but adults. Not surprisingly at all, Florida's AAP has sent a letter to DeSantis stating just that. Kids need to go back to school but you can't open schools in Florida because coronavirus is not controlled in Florida. Kids go to school, get infected with coronavirus, bring it home, get parents sick and potentially put them out of work with long term illnesses or kill them. Its not a sustainable strategy without the virus being controlled. You don't have to eradicate it but you can't have 10,000 cases per day. My mom is a 2nd grade teacher in her 60's here in Florida. I think it's ridiculous that everyone is concerned about kids, but no one seems to give a shit about teachers. The government should pay 100% for all teachers insurance if they plan on sending them in front of 12-32 students. I also can't believe teachers value themselves so little as to not protest going back or just quit. I wish people weren't so afraid of leaving their job and teaching in those conditions doesn't make you a hero. You can make more managing at Costco anyway and probably end up with equal or safer conditions. I imagine teachers are still hoping for politicians to see reason, but yes I hope they go on strike if governers keep pushing through for schools to open.
When the virus is under control schools can be one of the first things to open up in limited fashion, but not when its rampaging around freely.
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
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I think its important to keep in mind the difference between re-opening a low vector for spreading when at a very low amount of infected and when at a peak in infections.
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Bisutopia19299 Posts
While that may be true, the health risk if my mother got it is huge. I have no problem with her working as last as the government (I say government because that is her employer as a public school teacher) is willing to cover the costs of tests and care if she gets it.
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United States43242 Posts
Would you want to be a teacher in one of those schools?
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On July 20 2020 01:10 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2020 22:42 StalkerTL wrote:https://twitter.com/DWUhlfelderLaw/status/1284826943079284736So this goes into the discussion we had before in the thread. People latched onto one paragraph in the AAP's statement and ran with it. They saw the AAP say all kids do best in school and decided to use it as justification to re-open schools, ignoring the rest of statement that argues that there is no one size fits all solution and measures have to be implemented to ensure the safety of not only children but adults. Not surprisingly at all, Florida's AAP has sent a letter to DeSantis stating just that. Kids need to go back to school but you can't open schools in Florida because coronavirus is not controlled in Florida. Kids go to school, get infected with coronavirus, bring it home, get parents sick and potentially put them out of work with long term illnesses or kill them. Its not a sustainable strategy without the virus being controlled. You don't have to eradicate it but you can't have 10,000 cases per day. My mom is a 2nd grade teacher in her 60's here in Florida. I think it's ridiculous that everyone is concerned about kids, but no one seems to give a shit about teachers. The government should pay 100% for all teachers insurance if they plan on sending them in front of 12-32 students. I also can't believe teachers value themselves so little as to not protest going back or just quit. I wish people weren't so afraid of leaving their job and teaching in those conditions doesn't make you a hero. You can make more managing at Costco anyway and probably end up with equal or safer conditions.
I agree that teachers haven't gotten much consideration when it comes to re-opening schools. I think they aren't paid nearly well enough to begin with, and I personally also think it's one of the most important jobs in any civilization that wants to describe itself as such. But I digress. It makes an extremely poor case for pushing to re-open for me, because even if they have insurance, that doesn't erase the experience someone goes through when they catch the disease, have to get treated, have to put their life on hold, and then deal with whatever long-term consequences result from it. Assuming they survive. And assuming they don't spread it to anybody else.
The main case to re-open schools hinges on the idea that children don't tend to transmit it. But they still can. And public school goes all the way up through adulthood. A high school would be along the lines of a cruise ship in terms of transmission. And any teachers who get infected become brand new vectors for transmission. All-around a bad idea. Online education is not a perfect replacement by any means, and the online classes I took were IMO the weakest, but it's what we have. I think it's much preferable to risking another spike. I think the real solution is to bolster the safety net to support people through the pandemic, and to implement stronger networking tools for teachers who don't have them. Not push to resume things as normal.
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On July 20 2020 04:03 NewSunshine wrote:
The main case to re-open schools hinges on the case that children don't tend to transmit it.
On this point, up until now the consensus among virologists, at least as I understood it, seemed to be that schools are a great vector for spreading covid, and this understanding comes in large part from their (documented) effect during regular flu epidemics.
If the Saxony study argues it's not actually so, good! But as a matter of precaution, it is better to wait for further evidence and corroboration, as one single study can have its flaws (especially when research centers are rushing things to answer the questions covid is posing) and may be too specific to local conditions to apply elsewhere.
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I am generally of the opinion that schools should be about the first thing to open up again once you do start opening.
In the situation large parts of the US are currently in, they shouldn't be opening anything, they should be closing down everything, go hard lockdown for a month or two, and once cases are way down, they may start opening up again.
Florida or California right now look a lot worse than countries in europe did in march and april, when we just started locking down. But instead of talking about locking down, they talk about opening up further, while cases continue going through the roof. It is very strange.
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Yeah, it's worth clarifying that the circumstances which would merit re-opening anything to begin with are very different than what pretty much all of the US is facing right now, and that we're still nowhere near legitimately talking about any widespread re-openings being safe.
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On July 20 2020 02:54 BisuDagger wrote:While that may be true, the health risk if my mother got it is huge. I have no problem with her working as last as the government (I say government because that is her employer as a public school teacher) is willing to cover the costs of tests and care if she gets it.
From what I understood of the study, your mother is more at risk of getting influenza from a child on a regular year than covid from kids atm. Naturally, having 50-55 plus teachers do administrative work or some other solutions, for some time, and other temporary measures would be a compromise solution.
However, nuance discussion is not possible in the US because if you want to open schools or open your business you are inconsiderate human who wants to murder old people in pursuit of your greediness (democrat POV) and if you wear a mask you are a communist (Republican POV).
In most places the optimal solution lies somewhere between.
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Bisutopia19299 Posts
On July 20 2020 07:34 GoTuNk! wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2020 02:54 BisuDagger wrote:While that may be true, the health risk if my mother got it is huge. I have no problem with her working as last as the government (I say government because that is her employer as a public school teacher) is willing to cover the costs of tests and care if she gets it. From what I understood of the study, your mother is more at risk of getting influenza from a child on a regular year than covid from kids atm. Naturally, having 50-55 plus teachers do administrative work or some other solutions, for some time, and other temporary measures would be a compromise solution. However, nuance discussion is not possible in the US because if you want to open schools or open your business you are inconsiderate human who wants to murder old people in pursuit of your greediness (democrat POV) and if you wear a mask you are a communist (Republican POV). In most places the optimal solution lies somewhere between.
That's true. I think if anything this pandemic has just opened up my mind to the idea of giving teachers much better health care. I have many pro and cons view points on teachers pay, but leaving that out of this discussion. I think it's reasonable to say we should provide free health care to teachers given the risk that they assume and have no control over the health of kids in their class. My mom got the flu this past year cause a kid was sent in two days in a row with 100 degree fever. When she talked to the kid the kid said the doctor told her she had the flu but her mom still sent her in.
For a broader argument I think places like hospitals should offer free health care too. My company covers 100% of my health care so I know it is possible for some companies to do so. It's not some mythical thing lol.
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On July 20 2020 08:11 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2020 07:34 GoTuNk! wrote:On July 20 2020 02:54 BisuDagger wrote:While that may be true, the health risk if my mother got it is huge. I have no problem with her working as last as the government (I say government because that is her employer as a public school teacher) is willing to cover the costs of tests and care if she gets it. From what I understood of the study, your mother is more at risk of getting influenza from a child on a regular year than covid from kids atm. Naturally, having 50-55 plus teachers do administrative work or some other solutions, for some time, and other temporary measures would be a compromise solution. However, nuance discussion is not possible in the US because if you want to open schools or open your business you are inconsiderate human who wants to murder old people in pursuit of your greediness (democrat POV) and if you wear a mask you are a communist (Republican POV). In most places the optimal solution lies somewhere between. That's true. I think if anything this pandemic has just opened up my mind to the idea of giving teachers much better health care. I have many pro and cons view points on teachers pay, but leaving that out of this discussion. I think it's reasonable to say we should provide free health care to teachers given the risk that they assume and have no control over the health of kids in their class. My mom got the flu this past year cause a kid was sent in two days in a row with 100 degree fever. When she talked to the kid the kid said the doctor told her she had the flu but her mom still sent her in. For a broader argument I think places like hospitals should offer free health care too. My company covers 100% of my health care so I know it is possible for some companies to do so. It's not some mythical thing lol.
Regarding sending sick kids to school, if the parent doesn't have adequate worker protections and wages/healthcare they don't have much of a choice but to send them to school and take their sick self to work.
This (mostly the having to go to work despite unsafe conditions part, since most schools closed in a reasonable amount of time initially) has been a major factor in the different case loads between many other developed countries and the US in my observations.
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On July 20 2020 07:34 GoTuNk! wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2020 02:54 BisuDagger wrote:While that may be true, the health risk if my mother got it is huge. I have no problem with her working as last as the government (I say government because that is her employer as a public school teacher) is willing to cover the costs of tests and care if she gets it. From what I understood of the study, your mother is more at risk of getting influenza from a child on a regular year than covid from kids atm. Naturally, having 50-55 plus teachers do administrative work or some other solutions, for some time, and other temporary measures would be a compromise solution. However, nuance discussion is not possible in the US because if you want to open schools or open your business you are inconsiderate human who wants to murder old people in pursuit of your greediness (democrat POV) and if you wear a mask you are a communist (Republican POV). In most places the optimal solution lies somewhere between. Its a problem for the US because your not even at the peak of an epidemic but still climbing.
If cases were all the way down there would be little opposition to opening up schools. You can't ignore the situation within which your trying to open up.
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This entire line of argument around why we can just go ahead and open schools seems patently absurd from the get-go. I'm surprised that this is even being talked as if it were a good idea under the circumstances the US is under. Those states and nations that failed to close schools in a timely fashion had among the worst infection rates in the world, there's evidence of significant spread under the circumstances that DPB posted, and yet one study under completely different conditions is justification for enabling one form of highly routine large public gatherings? I not only don't buy it, but further consider it absurd on its face.
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Bisutopia19299 Posts
On July 20 2020 09:08 LegalLord wrote:
This entire line of argument around why we can just go ahead and open schools seems patently absurd from the get-go. I'm surprised that this is even being talked as if it were a good idea under the circumstances the US is under. Those states and nations that failed to close schools in a timely fashion had among the worst infection rates in the world, there's evidence of significant spread under the circumstances that DPB posted, and yet one study under completely different conditions is justification for enabling one form of highly routine large public gatherings? I not only don't buy it, but further consider it absurd on its face.
Problem is the infection rate is very isolated to parts of Florida. I live just outside of Jacksonville and our county has had very few cases. It feels completely safe to go out and shop and continue life while following the basic socially distancing guidelines. Schools reopening in my county feels safe and the teachers who live on my street feel confident going back. However, there's no chance I'd feel comfortable with the same lifestyle if I lived twenty minutes north of here which would put me in the city portion of Jacksonville.
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It's one study, and there are multiple studies that are still drawing different conclusions. It's too early to make large policy changes based on the data we have available yet. Certainly not based on a single study.
https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/10/20-1315_article
For example, this is a Korean study that suggests that rate of transmission within-household for children between the age of 10 and 19 is actually fairly high, though for children age 0-9 it is indeed lower.
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I drove Chicago today and experienced something almost as bonkers as the school thing. They have reoponed their manned toll booths, meaning tens of thousands of people are making contact right there, daily. Now, if it was just so people could pay in cash if they had no card it would be dumb but at least have some reason. All of these booths have a spot where you can swipe your card with no or minimal contact. I tried to point that I wanted to use that instead, and the person manning the booth got rather irritated and told me they had to do it. Why??? There are also 4+ of these if you need to drive through the city.
The rest of Illinois has tolls that you can pay online later that day (or they mail them to you if you forget). When I looked it up earlier, I assumed they were all like that. But no, Chicago has this insane policy of having all drivers passing through rub up against locals, all while flashing signs warning you to self quarantine if you are visiting from a hotspot.
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EPT
