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)))Coronavirus and You - Page 126
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Any and all updates regarding the COVID-19 will need a source provided. Please do your part in helping us to keep this thread maintainable and under control. It is YOUR responsibility to fully read through the sources that you link, and you MUST provide a brief summary explaining what the source is about. Do not expect other people to do the work for you. Conspiracy theories and fear mongering will absolutely not be tolerated in this thread. Expect harsh mod actions if you try to incite fear needlessly. This is not a politics thread! You are allowed to post information regarding politics if it's related to the coronavirus, but do NOT discuss politics in here. Added a disclaimer on page 662. Many need to post better. | ||
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dankobanana
Croatia244 Posts
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Nouar
France3270 Posts
On April 17 2020 20:01 thePunGun wrote: Guys both data and expert opinion can be wrong, nothing is ever 100% accurate. However at the same time that doesn't mean it can't be trusted (even though conspiracy theorists cling onto that argument like a toddler to its favourite toy). Expert opinions rely on data as well as observation, but like in any scientific field, only further research, analysis and peer-reviews will eventually provide the scientific evidence needed. As for now, nobody really knows and as any expert in the medical field will tell you it's mostly observation and guess work right now, because at this point all of this is an ongoing process and takes time. So you're both right and wrong, until the scientific evidence catches up.  However, a simple addition error is demonstrably false. It has now been corrected. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/france/ NOTE: France reported that a portion of the EHPAD and EMS nursing home cases - representing about 33% of the total EHPAD and EMS cases - were confirmed (rather than probable, as the other 67%) and as such are to be considered as already included in the total national case count [source]. The French Government has now started reporting the breakdown between confirmed and probable EHPAD and EMS cases [source]. We have adjusted the historical data for France from April 4 based on this information. I stand by my assessment that the two situations were not the same as Aveng3r believed, as one (a counting error) is based on a wrong reading of a report, and is able to be proven false and corrected, while the other is only based on opinions and thus a definite answer cannot be reached at this point in time. | ||
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Slydie
1935 Posts
On April 18 2020 09:02 Lmui wrote: ![[image loading]](https://i.redd.it/1wwu8xu1kft41.png) This is a pretty cool graph. It's pretty cool/stark representation of where we are at. In BC, at a population level, we interact with about 30% the number of people we would under normal circumstances. If we went and returned to normal, within three weeks, we would be overwhelmed. Increasing our human contact slightly, can keep the critical care patients under control, but it has to be mild increases. Hard to quantify at an individual level what +10% contact means, but for me, that would be slightly less home cooking, possibly going into the office if it's good weather and I can bike instead of transit, etc. All Graphs like this tend to be pure guesswork. Unfortunately, nobody knows neither the right safe way to reopen society nor if some of the measures barely had effect on the spreading in the first place. I am also curious if the countries and regions that are hit the hardest first have an advantage long term, nobody knows that either atm. | ||
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Lmui
Canada6223 Posts
On April 19 2020 01:16 Slydie wrote: All Graphs like this tend to be pure guesswork. Unfortunately, nobody knows neither the right safe way to reopen society nor if some of the measures barely had effect on the spreading in the first place. I am also curious if the countries and regions that are hit the hardest first have an advantage long term, nobody knows that either atm. I'm going to trust my govt on this. It's definitely not guesswork. They're using Google's location data to track approximate interaction levels, and modeling spread based on that. We've gotten new infections down to tens a day which is about as good as you can get. | ||
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Vivax
22300 Posts
https://www.rainews.it/tgr/tagesschau/articoli/2020/04/tag-Coronavirus-Lungeschaden-Forschung-Uniklinik-Innsbruck-6708e11e-28dc-4843-a760-e7f926ace61c.html?wt_mc=2.social.tw.redtgrtaadeu_tag-Coronavirus-Lungeschaden-Forschung-Uniklinik-Innsbruck.&wt Article from a doctor specialized in diving medicine of my nearby medical university. It's in German. Apparently some damage in recovered p. is permanent. Shunts appear, so oxygen-rich blood gets mixed with poor blood. But the most important takeaway is that for some reason, oxygen therapy tends to worsen the condition drastically. Imo, that might explain the high fatalities in Italy (reckless ventilation). Also maybe points to oxidation and antioxidation in conjunction with surfactant as a mechanism involved. Euler-Liljestrand-reflex may also be involved. During the pneumonia the body might react to reduced ventilation by reducing the perfusion. So oxygen therapy increasing the ventilation lifts the perfusion in areas not capable of gas exchange, reducing the overall oxygenation. If you can breathe at least a little, avoid ventilation. | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
Albeit you only go an ventilator if there's no other way, i.e. ICU. Typically, Covid-19 patients in ICU are put on ventilators. This is an invasive and traumatic process. Some hospitals prefer to treat severe cases with a continuous positive airway pressure ventilator (Cpap). St Thomas’, however, favours full ventilation, believing this is how you save people, specialists say. | ||
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Nouar
France3270 Posts
On April 19 2020 04:48 Vivax wrote: + Show Spoiler + https://www.rainews.it/tgr/tagesschau/articoli/2020/04/tag-Coronavirus-Lungeschaden-Forschung-Uniklinik-Innsbruck-6708e11e-28dc-4843-a760-e7f926ace61c.html?wt_mc=2.social.tw.redtgrtaadeu_tag-Coronavirus-Lungeschaden-Forschung-Uniklinik-Innsbruck.&wt Article from a doctor specialized in diving medicine of my nearby medical university. It's in German. Apparently some damage in recovered p. is permanent. Shunts appear, so oxygen-rich blood gets mixed with poor blood. But the most important takeaway is that for some reason, oxygen therapy tends to worsen the condition drastically. Imo, that might explain the high fatalities in Italy (reckless ventilation). Also maybe points to oxidation and antioxidation in conjunction with surfactant as a mechanism involved. Euler-Liljestrand-reflex may also be involved. During the pneumonia the body might react to reduced ventilation by reducing the perfusion. So oxygen therapy increasing the ventilation lifts the perfusion in areas not capable of gas exchange, reducing the overall oxygenation. If you can breathe at least a little, avoid ventilation. I heard something akin to this on the French news today. The doctor was explaining what they observed in the immune/inflammatory response and the reaction of the lungs was damaging. He said they were waiting too long to put people on ventilation/oxygen, and it was mostly too late once they do, and sometimes harmful. They need to specifically target the inflammation in the lungs and blood clots that form (antibiotics, anticoagulants etc) instead of relying too much/late on ventilation and hoping for the best, to keep the lungs as healthy as possible while the body prepares its antibodies. I can't really provide a source, it was in the "20h". | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18275 Posts
Basically, nothing confirmed, but quite a few indicators that the SARS-Cov2 virus can invade the brain. This could also explain the incidental reports of the virus lying dormant and reactivating. | ||
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SC-Shield
Bulgaria843 Posts
On April 19 2020 06:57 Acrofales wrote: This scares the shit out of me: https://medium.com/microbial-instincts/3-clues-that-sars-cov2-invades-the-brain-3f3ef74cb803 Basically, nothing confirmed, but quite a few indicators that the SARS-Cov2 virus can invade the brain. This could also explain the incidental reports of the virus lying dormant and reactivating. No, you should read this: https://www.healthline.com/health-news/why-are-some-people-testing-positive-for-covid-19-again#Its-most-likely-not-a-reactivation,-but-a-resurgence Basically, it says that reactivation is unlikely. No human coronavirus has shown dormancy behaviour, so this one is unlikely. It's more likely that patients were never 100% cured and were released earlier, then they got worse. Also, it's said that 2-4 weeks from recovery the virus is still detectable in some parts of the body. What surprises me is, don't we get coronavirus (common cold) often, and if so, why can't we fight COVID-19 a bit better due to being exposed to previous coronaviruses? Is the immune system really so strictly attached to a specific strain, but can't extrapolate against a similar one? | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
On April 19 2020 06:57 Acrofales wrote: This scares the shit out of me: https://medium.com/microbial-instincts/3-clues-that-sars-cov2-invades-the-brain-3f3ef74cb803 Basically, nothing confirmed, but quite a few indicators that the SARS-Cov2 virus can invade the brain. This could also explain the incidental reports of the virus lying dormant and reactivating. At the bottom of that article: Author’s Note Thanks to a kind email, it seems that the online Li et al. paper stated that “Correction added on March 17, 2020, after first online publication: Manuscript has been revised with author’s latest changes.” Upon reading the online full text again, they deleted an entire section called “The implications of the potential neuroinvasion of SARS-CoV-2” from which the first three abovementioned points were derived. Perhaps the authors were criticized for suggesting precautions based on theoretical evidence. I have the original full-text pdf saved. Any interested reader please feel free to email me. And thanks to those who have done so So a reviewer made them rewrite their entire conclusion. This is how peer review is supposed to work and is why laypeople and media running with preprint articles is so freaking dangerous right now. There is good evidence that these viruses can infect the brain, but very little evidence that any of the consequential symptoms are due to this. There is also, as far as i can see, no evidence of reactivation from a cerebral reservoir in recovered SARS, MERS etc. patients. It's a possibility, but it's not very likely and not something to panic over off one sensationalist lit review. | ||
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Slydie
1935 Posts
On April 19 2020 05:38 Nouar wrote: I heard something akin to this on the French news today. The doctor was explaining what they observed in the immune/inflammatory response and the reaction of the lungs was damaging. He said they were waiting too long to put people on ventilation/oxygen, and it was mostly too late once they do, and sometimes harmful. They need to specifically target the inflammation in the lungs and blood clots that form (antibiotics, anticoagulants etc) instead of relying too much/late on ventilation and hoping for the best, to keep the lungs as healthy as possible while the body prepares its antibodies. I can't really provide a source, it was in the "20h". It sounds plausible, but I think there are more likely reasons: -A major problems with antibiotic resistant bacteria in hospitals. It kills 11k people a year in Italy, and secondary infections were found in 50% of the cases in China. Antibiotics are also given to patients receiving respirator treatment, but if they don't have any effect... Those could even have permanent residence inside the respirator machines. (I posted a Norwegian source for this earlier, would have to dig up an English one.) -A very social and "touchy" culture, allowing the virus to spread very quickly in the early stages. There is research that Italians stand very close to each other for conversations, cheek kisses when greeting strangers etc. -A culture where taking care of the weak elderly is very often at least partly done by several different younger family members. This way the virus effectively reaches the most vulnerable. -An old population. Spain has a lot of the same issues, and both governments failed to see this coming. I am not saying that the culture aspects of this are bad in general, but they are certainly disasterus for the death tolls of the Corona virus. The burning question for me is to which degree some of the ultra-strict quarentine measures have much effect at all once the virus got a foothold. Fines for driving to out-of-town private property, banning outside exercise even for children and closing kindergartens seem particularly outrageous to me, and is not in line with what countries which are dealing much better with the virus are doing. The long term pshycological effects of the Spanish quarentine will be massive. Here is a good paper on the matter, although nothing at the Spanish scale had ever been tried before: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30460-8/fulltext | ||
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ahswtini
Northern Ireland22212 Posts
On April 18 2020 01:02 SC-Shield wrote: Couldn't some severely weakened coronavirus be injected into people to gain herd immunity? I think that's how vaccines work if I'm not mistaken, but why do they need 12-18 months for that? Is it that difficult? What does the process involve? One of the groups that I'm following is using a modified Adenovirus as a vector. This Adenovirus has been modified so it doesn't replicate, and so doesn't cause harm. They further modify it by adding genetic code from SARS-CoV-2, so that it expresses the spike protein of SARS-CoV-2. This is effectively how the vaccine delivers bits of SARS-CoV-2 into the body to trigger an immune response. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On April 19 2020 05:11 Artisreal wrote: Well, the doctors in the hospital where BoJo was treated say ventilation or bust is their experience. Albeit you only go an ventilator if there's no other way, i.e. ICU. Intubating a patient should be a last resort. This is the standard of care, but far too many providers are trigger-happy and will intubate a patient because it's easier than keeping them conscious. Its actually pretty well-documented at this point that we intubate patients too much (in general). I'm interested to see what the science says about Intubating COVID patients and if it changes practices in emergency medicine. Source: I'm a provider that intubates patients. | ||
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SC-Shield
Bulgaria843 Posts
On April 19 2020 09:22 Stratos_speAr wrote: Intubating a patient should be a last resort. This is the standard of care, but far too many providers are trigger-happy and will intubate a patient because it's easier than keeping them conscious. Its actually pretty well-documented at this point that we intubate patients too much (in general). I'm interested to see what the science says about Intubating COVID patients and if it changes practices in emergency medicine. Source: I'm a provider that intubates patients. At the beginning, here in Bulgaria, head of coronavirus task force believed that most intubations result in death, but we've had at least one case that really recovered. What's the experience in your countries? Is it different? | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23894 Posts
On April 19 2020 16:45 SC-Shield wrote: At the beginning, here in Bulgaria, head of coronavirus task force believed that most intubations result in death, but we've had at least one case that really recovered. What's the experience in your countries? Is it different? NYT reports that ~1/3 of patients over 65 that were intubated died anyway before covid. Basically it is frequently a emergency/desperation move to prolong the life of terminal patients. So I imagine some of that is getting lumped in. I did recently see this from CNN about the prone position (basically laying on the stomach instead of back) has had success reducing the need for ventilators and improving their efficacy. Says some research from years ago showed it helped with intubated patients before covid and some are using it now. The doctors say it essentially opens up parts of the lung restricted in other positions. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1710 Posts
Full interview (in french) (english) https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/coronavirus-man-made-in-wuhan-lab-nobel-laureate/articleshow/75227989.cms There are many other links, let's see how long the conspiracy theory is gonna last for this one... | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18275 Posts
That said, it's obvious that we don't know the exact origin of this Corona virus. It possibly could have been engineered in that Wuhan lab. However, most virologists still seem to think that it is far more likely it allowed "naturally". I put that between quotation marks as the leading theory of transfer from bat to pangolin to human doesn't sound particularly natural either and the wet market conditions are what leads to this. On April 19 2020 17:01 iFU.pauline wrote: Doctor Luc Montagnier Nobel prize 2008 and expert virologist known for discovering HIV affirms coronavirus is man made virus containing HIV sequence probably developed for HIV vaccine. What a bombshell... with UK and USA government investigating the possibility that covid-19 outbreak started in a laboratory in Wuhan known for studying coronavirus. Full interview (in french) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0POYGvPy0TA (english) https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/coronavirus-man-made-in-wuhan-lab-nobel-laureate/articleshow/75227989.cms There are many other links, let's see how long the conspiracy theory is gonna last for this one... | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1710 Posts
On April 19 2020 17:16 Acrofales wrote: In the timesindia article linked it already mentions that he has made bogus claims in the past and other virologists dispute this claim too as the parts that he mentions are apparently tiny and frequently appear in many viruses. Apparently having a Novel prize in medicine doesn't stop you from spreading unfounded nonsense. That said, it's obvious that we don't know the exact origin of this Corona virus. It possibly could have been engineered in that Wuhan lab. However, most virologists still seem to think that it is far more likely it allowed "naturally". I put that between quotation marks as the leading theory of transfer from bat to pangolin to human doesn't sound particularly natural either and the wet market conditions are what leads to this. I have no expertise in that field so I wouldn't come with a "doesn't or does sound like". But anyway, he confirms 100% that this virus is artificially made. He also state that the analysis is relatively easy to do with a computer program (detecting arn sequence) so that we should expect in the coming days/weeks to have a confirmation of this from other labs. Wait and see. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5803 Posts
On April 19 2020 17:01 iFU.pauline wrote: Doctor Luc Montagnier Nobel prize 2008 and expert virologist known for discovering HIV affirms coronavirus is man made virus containing HIV sequence probably developed for HIV vaccine. What a bombshell... with UK and USA government investigating the possibility that covid-19 outbreak started in a laboratory in Wuhan known for studying coronavirus. There is much more in this interview in fact so I hope this will be reviewed at some point in English. Full interview (in french) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0POYGvPy0TA (english) https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/coronavirus-man-made-in-wuhan-lab-nobel-laureate/articleshow/75227989.cms There are many other links, let's see how long the conspiracy theory is gonna last for this one... The guy supports homeopathy. He clearly lost the plot... | ||
Firebolt145
Lalalaland34503 Posts
To add to this, I'm still looking for a well researched/written article on the matter beyond just 'he says X', but a lot of experts are already rubbishing his claims. | ||
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