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Any and all updates regarding the COVID-19 will need a source provided. Please do your part in helping us to keep this thread maintainable and under control.
It is YOUR responsibility to fully read through the sources that you link, and you MUST provide a brief summary explaining what the source is about. Do not expect other people to do the work for you.
Conspiracy theories and fear mongering will absolutely not be tolerated in this thread. Expect harsh mod actions if you try to incite fear needlessly.
This is not a politics thread! You are allowed to post information regarding politics if it's related to the coronavirus, but do NOT discuss politics in here.
Added a disclaimer on page 662. Many need to post better. |
On April 19 2020 17:16 Acrofales wrote:In the timesindia article linked it already mentions that he has made bogus claims in the past and other virologists dispute this claim too as the parts that he mentions are apparently tiny and frequently appear in many viruses. Apparently having a Novel prize in medicine doesn't stop you from spreading unfounded nonsense.
For anyone considering believing this nonsense, here is an article in European Scientist that responds directly:.
https://www.europeanscientist.com/en/big-data/no-sars-cov-2-does-not-contain-hiv-genetic-code/
Bioinformatics searches that can be done in about 30 seconds make it clear that there are no significant similarities between the protein coding regions of the new virus and HIV.
There are a small number of genomic regions with limited similarity, most notably some components of the envelope. These elements are common to and shared by many viruses. Importantly, they are also shared by the coronaviruses responsible for the common cold, which were discovered in the 1950s. They categorically did not emerge in a lab in 2019.
The guy is a certified quack at this point. Among his other recent findings are a thing he calls “DNA teleportation”, the curative effects of papaya on HIV, and, as has already been said, homeopathy.
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Lalalaland34491 Posts
That's good enough for me.
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On April 19 2020 18:13 Firebolt145 wrote:
He does not confirm 100% the virus is artificially made. He alleges that it is. Important distinction. Please don't make claims like that, this is what results in conspiracy theories and misinformation.
He doesn't allege anything, he states virus is man-made, he went public because he had the confirmation of it through his studies. Now that using the word "alleges" will result in less conspiracy theories and misinformation instead of using the word "confirming", I will make no comment on that statement.
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Lalalaland34491 Posts
Hah I didn't know that 'allege' is defined as 'without proof'. Fine, he believes he has proof.
It is definitely not confirmed though, and there are a lot of experts who claim he is wrong. We should leave his claims behind now.
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On April 19 2020 18:53 iFU.pauline wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2020 18:13 Firebolt145 wrote:
He does not confirm 100% the virus is artificially made. He alleges that it is. Important distinction. Please don't make claims like that, this is what results in conspiracy theories and misinformation. He doesn't allege anything, he states virus is man-made, he went public because he had the confirmation of it through his studies. Now that using the word "alleges" will result in less conspiracy theories and misinformation instead of using the word "confirming", I will make no comment on that statement.
https://sante.lefigaro.fr/article/le-lent-naufrage-scientifique-du-pr-luc-montagnier/
Plus de cent académiciens dénoncent les déclarations du Prix Nobel contre les vaccins.
"More than a hundred academics denounce his declarations against vaccines."
https://www.lemonde.fr/series-d-ete-2018-long-format/article/2018/08/17/luc-montagnier-le-virus-de-la-controverse_5343587_5325928.html
Car Luc Montagnier est aujourd’hui un paria. Le milieu médical français affirme qu’il l’a bien cherché.
"Luc is nowadays an outcast. The french medical world assures he deserves it."
Looks like a very trusty source indeed. Peer-reviewed is what I'm looking for in science. Not bullshit from people used to controversy and a history of it. Please address Belisarius' info two posts above yours.
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On April 19 2020 19:01 Nouar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2020 18:53 iFU.pauline wrote:On April 19 2020 18:13 Firebolt145 wrote:
He does not confirm 100% the virus is artificially made. He alleges that it is. Important distinction. Please don't make claims like that, this is what results in conspiracy theories and misinformation. He doesn't allege anything, he states virus is man-made, he went public because he had the confirmation of it through his studies. Now that using the word "alleges" will result in less conspiracy theories and misinformation instead of using the word "confirming", I will make no comment on that statement. https://sante.lefigaro.fr/article/le-lent-naufrage-scientifique-du-pr-luc-montagnier/Show nested quote +Plus de cent académiciens dénoncent les déclarations du Prix Nobel contre les vaccins. "More than a hundred academics denounce his declarations against vaccines." https://www.lemonde.fr/series-d-ete-2018-long-format/article/2018/08/17/luc-montagnier-le-virus-de-la-controverse_5343587_5325928.htmlShow nested quote +Car Luc Montagnier est aujourd’hui un paria. Le milieu médical français affirme qu’il l’a bien cherché. "Luc is nowadays an outcast. The french medical world assures he deserves it." Looks like a very trusty source indeed. Peer-reviewed is what I'm looking for in science. Not bullshit from people used to controversy and a history of it. Please address Belisarius' info two posts above yours.
I did read Belisarius's post referring to an article made by "a consultant in Washington, DC. He holds advanced degrees in applied mathematics, statistics and economics from the University of Paris Dauphine." So if you are so fond of trusty source, I would assume that you would refer to a study made by a virologist at least and go above figaro and lemonde newspaper come on you can do better than that.
Now I am not especially defending Montagnier more than I would defend someone else, frankly I don't care if that virus is man-made or natural. I care about the truth, right now ongoing investigation on the responsibility of a Wuhan lab regarding the outbreak of covid-19, this is not me or Montagnier.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/us-officials-investigation-coronavirus-wuhan-lab
It is ongoing, they are taking this possibility seriously. You get it?
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On April 19 2020 19:11 iFU.pauline wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2020 19:01 Nouar wrote:On April 19 2020 18:53 iFU.pauline wrote:On April 19 2020 18:13 Firebolt145 wrote:
He does not confirm 100% the virus is artificially made. He alleges that it is. Important distinction. Please don't make claims like that, this is what results in conspiracy theories and misinformation. He doesn't allege anything, he states virus is man-made, he went public because he had the confirmation of it through his studies. Now that using the word "alleges" will result in less conspiracy theories and misinformation instead of using the word "confirming", I will make no comment on that statement. https://sante.lefigaro.fr/article/le-lent-naufrage-scientifique-du-pr-luc-montagnier/Plus de cent académiciens dénoncent les déclarations du Prix Nobel contre les vaccins. "More than a hundred academics denounce his declarations against vaccines." https://www.lemonde.fr/series-d-ete-2018-long-format/article/2018/08/17/luc-montagnier-le-virus-de-la-controverse_5343587_5325928.htmlCar Luc Montagnier est aujourd’hui un paria. Le milieu médical français affirme qu’il l’a bien cherché. "Luc is nowadays an outcast. The french medical world assures he deserves it." Looks like a very trusty source indeed. Peer-reviewed is what I'm looking for in science. Not bullshit from people used to controversy and a history of it. Please address Belisarius' info two posts above yours. I did read Belisarius's post referring to an article made by "a consultant in Washington, DC. He holds advanced degrees in applied mathematics, statistics and economics from the University of Paris Dauphine." So if you are so fond of trusty source, I would assume that you would refer to a study made by a virologist at least and go above figaro and lemonde newspaper come on you can do better than that. Now I am not especially defending Montagnier more than I would defend someone else, frankly I don't care if that virus is man-made or natural. I care about the truth, right now ongoing investigation on the responsibility of a Wuhan lab regarding the outbreak of covid-19, this is not me or Montagnier. https://www.foxnews.com/politics/us-officials-investigation-coronavirus-wuhan-labIt is ongoing, they are taking this possibility seriously. You get it? You complain about another's sources but use Fox yourself?
Fox is a propaganda network, not a news source.
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On April 19 2020 19:16 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2020 19:11 iFU.pauline wrote:On April 19 2020 19:01 Nouar wrote:On April 19 2020 18:53 iFU.pauline wrote:On April 19 2020 18:13 Firebolt145 wrote:
He does not confirm 100% the virus is artificially made. He alleges that it is. Important distinction. Please don't make claims like that, this is what results in conspiracy theories and misinformation. He doesn't allege anything, he states virus is man-made, he went public because he had the confirmation of it through his studies. Now that using the word "alleges" will result in less conspiracy theories and misinformation instead of using the word "confirming", I will make no comment on that statement. https://sante.lefigaro.fr/article/le-lent-naufrage-scientifique-du-pr-luc-montagnier/Plus de cent académiciens dénoncent les déclarations du Prix Nobel contre les vaccins. "More than a hundred academics denounce his declarations against vaccines." https://www.lemonde.fr/series-d-ete-2018-long-format/article/2018/08/17/luc-montagnier-le-virus-de-la-controverse_5343587_5325928.htmlCar Luc Montagnier est aujourd’hui un paria. Le milieu médical français affirme qu’il l’a bien cherché. "Luc is nowadays an outcast. The french medical world assures he deserves it." Looks like a very trusty source indeed. Peer-reviewed is what I'm looking for in science. Not bullshit from people used to controversy and a history of it. Please address Belisarius' info two posts above yours. I did read Belisarius's post referring to an article made by "a consultant in Washington, DC. He holds advanced degrees in applied mathematics, statistics and economics from the University of Paris Dauphine." So if you are so fond of trusty source, I would assume that you would refer to a study made by a virologist at least and go above figaro and lemonde newspaper come on you can do better than that. Now I am not especially defending Montagnier more than I would defend someone else, frankly I don't care if that virus is man-made or natural. I care about the truth, right now ongoing investigation on the responsibility of a Wuhan lab regarding the outbreak of covid-19, this is not me or Montagnier. https://www.foxnews.com/politics/us-officials-investigation-coronavirus-wuhan-labIt is ongoing, they are taking this possibility seriously. You get it? You complain about another's sources but use Fox yourself? Fox is a propaganda network, not a news source.
So you imply that the investigation is fake or something like that? Okay why not.
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Trump can ask 'us officials' to investigate leprechauns, that doesn't mean anything. The epidemiological community is not taking this possibility seriously.
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On April 19 2020 19:22 Dan HH wrote:Trump can ask 'us officials' to investigate leprechauns, that doesn't mean anything. The epidemiological community is not taking this possibility seriously.
Looks like you are very well acquainted with the epidemiological community thank you for your input.
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On April 19 2020 19:11 iFU.pauline wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2020 19:01 Nouar wrote:On April 19 2020 18:53 iFU.pauline wrote:On April 19 2020 18:13 Firebolt145 wrote:
He does not confirm 100% the virus is artificially made. He alleges that it is. Important distinction. Please don't make claims like that, this is what results in conspiracy theories and misinformation. He doesn't allege anything, he states virus is man-made, he went public because he had the confirmation of it through his studies. Now that using the word "alleges" will result in less conspiracy theories and misinformation instead of using the word "confirming", I will make no comment on that statement. https://sante.lefigaro.fr/article/le-lent-naufrage-scientifique-du-pr-luc-montagnier/Plus de cent académiciens dénoncent les déclarations du Prix Nobel contre les vaccins. "More than a hundred academics denounce his declarations against vaccines." https://www.lemonde.fr/series-d-ete-2018-long-format/article/2018/08/17/luc-montagnier-le-virus-de-la-controverse_5343587_5325928.htmlCar Luc Montagnier est aujourd’hui un paria. Le milieu médical français affirme qu’il l’a bien cherché. "Luc is nowadays an outcast. The french medical world assures he deserves it." Looks like a very trusty source indeed. Peer-reviewed is what I'm looking for in science. Not bullshit from people used to controversy and a history of it. Please address Belisarius' info two posts above yours. I did read Belisarius's post referring to an article made by "a consultant in Washington, DC. He holds advanced degrees in applied mathematics, statistics and economics from the University of Paris Dauphine." So if you are so fond of trusty source, I would assume that you would refer to a study made by a virologist at least and go above figaro and lemonde newspaper come on you can do better than that. Now I am not especially defending Montagnier more than I would defend someone else, frankly I don't care if that virus is man-made or natural. I care about the truth, right now ongoing investigation on the responsibility of a Wuhan lab regarding the outbreak of covid-19, this is not me or Montagnier. https://www.foxnews.com/politics/us-officials-investigation-coronavirus-wuhan-labIt is ongoing, they are taking this possibility seriously. You get it?
It is pretty amazing of you to complain about my choice of sources (LeMonde and LeFigaro being, one from left-wing, one from right-wing, among the two most reputable newspapers in France), and then quoting Fox News :-D
If you had read the two previous pages of this thread, you would have seen that I advocated for the fact that it is a possibility that the virus might have escaped from the Wuhan lab as they are studying coronaviruses strains. However, the overwhelming consensus in the scientific world is that it is NOT man-made. It is pretty easy to see man-made modifications in viruses, as the human touch is far from perfect and pretty mechanical, compared to virus refined by billions of evolutions while they naturally spread and evolve/mutate.
A 88yo virologist mired in controversy and known for giving questionable opinions on all topics including outside his field (not in this case, yes) for at least a decade is not enough as a source.
I mean, the guy claimed that africans were most susceptible to HIV because the quality of their food is not enough, and that people could naturally heal from HIV if their immune system is good enough, something that was EXACTLY his field of expertise and that hasn't been observed anywhere.
ps : I am not an expert myself despite somewhat scientific studies, but 2 of my best friends have a post-doc(PhD) in virology/epidemiology and is a university teacher, and the other also has a post-doc in immunology and vaccinology and works as a team leader at Sanofi after doing his research at Institut Pasteur. So I kinda trust my private information sources.
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Lalalaland34491 Posts
Enough.
We have discussed Montagnier's claims enough. He has stated that he believes that the virus is man made. Most of the response has been experts rubbishing his claims rather than agreeing with him.
We also know that governments are investigating the possibility that the virus was accidentally released. Frankly, it would be irresponsible for them not to explore this. There has not been any additional evidence of this yet.
Let's move on. Further posts pushing this theory by Montagnier will be actioned.
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On April 19 2020 19:33 Nouar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2020 19:11 iFU.pauline wrote:On April 19 2020 19:01 Nouar wrote:On April 19 2020 18:53 iFU.pauline wrote:On April 19 2020 18:13 Firebolt145 wrote:
He does not confirm 100% the virus is artificially made. He alleges that it is. Important distinction. Please don't make claims like that, this is what results in conspiracy theories and misinformation. He doesn't allege anything, he states virus is man-made, he went public because he had the confirmation of it through his studies. Now that using the word "alleges" will result in less conspiracy theories and misinformation instead of using the word "confirming", I will make no comment on that statement. https://sante.lefigaro.fr/article/le-lent-naufrage-scientifique-du-pr-luc-montagnier/Plus de cent académiciens dénoncent les déclarations du Prix Nobel contre les vaccins. "More than a hundred academics denounce his declarations against vaccines." https://www.lemonde.fr/series-d-ete-2018-long-format/article/2018/08/17/luc-montagnier-le-virus-de-la-controverse_5343587_5325928.htmlCar Luc Montagnier est aujourd’hui un paria. Le milieu médical français affirme qu’il l’a bien cherché. "Luc is nowadays an outcast. The french medical world assures he deserves it." Looks like a very trusty source indeed. Peer-reviewed is what I'm looking for in science. Not bullshit from people used to controversy and a history of it. Please address Belisarius' info two posts above yours. I did read Belisarius's post referring to an article made by "a consultant in Washington, DC. He holds advanced degrees in applied mathematics, statistics and economics from the University of Paris Dauphine." So if you are so fond of trusty source, I would assume that you would refer to a study made by a virologist at least and go above figaro and lemonde newspaper come on you can do better than that. Now I am not especially defending Montagnier more than I would defend someone else, frankly I don't care if that virus is man-made or natural. I care about the truth, right now ongoing investigation on the responsibility of a Wuhan lab regarding the outbreak of covid-19, this is not me or Montagnier. https://www.foxnews.com/politics/us-officials-investigation-coronavirus-wuhan-labIt is ongoing, they are taking this possibility seriously. You get it? It is pretty amazing of you to complain about my choice of sources (LeMonde and LeFigaro being, one from left-wing, one from right-wing, among the two most reputable newspapers in France), and then quoting Fox News :-D If you had read the two previous pages of this thread, you would have seen that I advocated for the fact that it is a possibility that the virus might have escaped from the Wuhan lab as they are studying coronaviruses strains. However, the overwhelming consensus in the scientific world is that it is NOT man-made. It is pretty easy to see man-made modifications in viruses, as the human touch is far from perfect and pretty mechanical, compared to virus refined by billions of evolutions while they naturally spread and evolve/mutate. A 88yo virologist mired in controversy and known for giving questionable opinions on all topics including outside his field (not in this case, yes) for at least a decade is not enough as a source. I mean, the guy claimed that africans were most susceptible to HIV because the quality of their food is not enough, and that people could naturally heal from HIV if their immune system is good enough, something that was EXACTLY his field of expertise and that hasn't been observed anywhere.
Okay look, obviously you can't make a difference between a content (us investigation) and a container (foxnews website). I could have forwarded this news with a different container, it would have made no difference aside of being to your liking.
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On April 19 2020 19:40 iFU.pauline wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2020 19:33 Nouar wrote:On April 19 2020 19:11 iFU.pauline wrote:On April 19 2020 19:01 Nouar wrote:On April 19 2020 18:53 iFU.pauline wrote:On April 19 2020 18:13 Firebolt145 wrote:
He does not confirm 100% the virus is artificially made. He alleges that it is. Important distinction. Please don't make claims like that, this is what results in conspiracy theories and misinformation. He doesn't allege anything, he states virus is man-made, he went public because he had the confirmation of it through his studies. Now that using the word "alleges" will result in less conspiracy theories and misinformation instead of using the word "confirming", I will make no comment on that statement. https://sante.lefigaro.fr/article/le-lent-naufrage-scientifique-du-pr-luc-montagnier/Plus de cent académiciens dénoncent les déclarations du Prix Nobel contre les vaccins. "More than a hundred academics denounce his declarations against vaccines." https://www.lemonde.fr/series-d-ete-2018-long-format/article/2018/08/17/luc-montagnier-le-virus-de-la-controverse_5343587_5325928.htmlCar Luc Montagnier est aujourd’hui un paria. Le milieu médical français affirme qu’il l’a bien cherché. "Luc is nowadays an outcast. The french medical world assures he deserves it." Looks like a very trusty source indeed. Peer-reviewed is what I'm looking for in science. Not bullshit from people used to controversy and a history of it. Please address Belisarius' info two posts above yours. I did read Belisarius's post referring to an article made by "a consultant in Washington, DC. He holds advanced degrees in applied mathematics, statistics and economics from the University of Paris Dauphine." So if you are so fond of trusty source, I would assume that you would refer to a study made by a virologist at least and go above figaro and lemonde newspaper come on you can do better than that. Now I am not especially defending Montagnier more than I would defend someone else, frankly I don't care if that virus is man-made or natural. I care about the truth, right now ongoing investigation on the responsibility of a Wuhan lab regarding the outbreak of covid-19, this is not me or Montagnier. https://www.foxnews.com/politics/us-officials-investigation-coronavirus-wuhan-labIt is ongoing, they are taking this possibility seriously. You get it? It is pretty amazing of you to complain about my choice of sources (LeMonde and LeFigaro being, one from left-wing, one from right-wing, among the two most reputable newspapers in France), and then quoting Fox News :-D If you had read the two previous pages of this thread, you would have seen that I advocated for the fact that it is a possibility that the virus might have escaped from the Wuhan lab as they are studying coronaviruses strains. However, the overwhelming consensus in the scientific world is that it is NOT man-made. It is pretty easy to see man-made modifications in viruses, as the human touch is far from perfect and pretty mechanical, compared to virus refined by billions of evolutions while they naturally spread and evolve/mutate. A 88yo virologist mired in controversy and known for giving questionable opinions on all topics including outside his field (not in this case, yes) for at least a decade is not enough as a source. I mean, the guy claimed that africans were most susceptible to HIV because the quality of their food is not enough, and that people could naturally heal from HIV if their immune system is good enough, something that was EXACTLY his field of expertise and that hasn't been observed anywhere. Okay look, obviously you can't make a difference between a content (us investigation) and a container (foxnews website). I could have forwarded this news with a different container, it would have made no difference aside of being to your liking.
I agree with the content, as is said in my post. Can you read ? You complained about my containers while I was looking at his reputation of controversy, I found it funny after seeing yours.
Let's stop there as Firebolt asked.
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On April 19 2020 09:22 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2020 05:11 Artisreal wrote:Well, the doctors in the hospital where BoJo was treated say ventilation or bust is their experience. Albeit you only go an ventilator if there's no other way, i.e. ICU.
Typically, Covid-19 patients in ICU are put on ventilators. This is an invasive and traumatic process. Some hospitals prefer to treat severe cases with a continuous positive airway pressure ventilator (Cpap). St Thomas’, however, favours full ventilation, believing this is how you save people, specialists say.
Intubating a patient should be a last resort. This is the standard of care, but far too many providers are trigger-happy and will intubate a patient because it's easier than keeping them conscious. Its actually pretty well-documented at this point that we intubate patients too much (in general). I'm interested to see what the science says about Intubating COVID patients and if it changes practices in emergency medicine. Source: I'm a provider that intubates patients.
It is good to have professionals weighin in from time to time 
Thank you for the insight.
As far as I understand the hospital I mentioned only intubates critically ill patients. What that means in practical terms I do not know.
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Yes. However worldometers is not accurate for Sweden due to how the site reports numbers (worldometer simply reports the cases for the day they were reported, official Swedish stats are the day they were tested).
https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/09f821667ce64bf7be6f9f87457ed9aa
This is the official site. The reported cases per day is similar but notice how deaths per day is radically different (in reality Sweden has only had more than 100 deaths per day once).
Age distribution is also really interesting.
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On April 19 2020 23:22 JimmiC wrote:
I wouldn't be so sure, the active cases has not flattened and while the death's per day looks like it might have, it also could climb again as their health care system has more pressure on it.
Incorrect. All curves are currently flat (although reported cases will increase now because they are now starting mass testing next week).
But ICU treated has been flat for basically a month and there is still ~20 % capacity to spare, not counting military field hospitals and other temporary measures.
Shit could still go sideways but for now it looks good.
Also note that almost all deaths are from the virus getting into care homes for the elderly. That's the really big failure so far and our PM had a press conference about that last week.
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I think it's insane how a country like Singapore, which used quite strict measures initially, now seems to have an exponential surge. Crazy how China seems to contained the thing. Perhaps it has to do with population density or something?
It just shows how super duper infectious this thing really is.
There's going to have to be some rubber banding quarantine measures imo, for a year or two, before herd immunity will be accomplished. Hopefully there won't be a more deadly wave in the meantime.
On a more personal note: it seems to have seeped into a retirement home where the sister of my girlfriend works. I hope she stays healthy. It hasn't really come any closer than that for me.
My sister did give birth 2 weeks ago and no one could visit the newborn, which is kind of a bummer for all parties involved. On the upside: at least the baby and her will have all the quiet they need to a good recovery/start though.
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EPT
