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I completely agree, the finger pointing at China is the most embarrassing thing to come out of this crisis. If we’re finger pointing at China, the next virus that comes out of the USA or Western Europe is going to wreck us just as hard.
This crisis didn’t happen worldwide all of a sudden, even if China did suppress whistleblowers or whatever fingerpointing assholes outside of China want to do. There was at least a month to react to China choosing to lockdown, totalitarian style, an entire major industrial region.
The entire world reacted so poorly that we’re stuck at a point where people and the economy are simultaneously dying at a far greater degree than if we immediately instituted quarantines and lockdown measures for countries already with cases.
The main reasoning from just about every country was a misplaced idea that China is a bad country and their own respective countries could handle the virus’ spread better, it was “only” as bad as the flu and the economy trumps over everything. That’s why Japan did fuck all until Canada pulled out of the Olympics (which told the IOC that it wasn’t going to happen full stop), why Europe didn’t institute lockdowns (because flow of people is a huge economic boon for certain European nations), why Australia didn’t really bother seriously quarantining native returnees until people started actually dying (most returnees from Australia with the virus were coming from Europe and the USA), why the USA didn’t do anything until exponential growth actually hit them.
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On April 12 2020 00:06 ThatCleanBurn wrote:I completely agree, the finger pointing at China is the most embarrassing thing to come out of this crisis. If we’re finger pointing at China, the next virus that comes out of the USA or Western Europe is going to wreck us just as hard. + Show Spoiler +This crisis didn’t happen worldwide all of a sudden, even if China did suppress whistleblowers or whatever fingerpointing assholes outside of China want to do. There was at least a month to react to China choosing to lockdown, totalitarian style, an entire major industrial region.
The entire world reacted so poorly that we’re stuck at a point where people and the economy are simultaneously dying at a far greater degree than if we immediately instituted quarantines and lockdown measures for countries already with cases.
The main reasoning from just about every country was a misplaced idea that China is a bad country and their own respective countries could handle the virus’ spread better, it was “only” as bad as the flu and the economy trumps over everything. That’s why Japan did fuck all until Canada pulled out of the Olympics (which told the IOC that it wasn’t going to happen full stop), why Europe didn’t institute lockdowns (because flow of people is a huge economic boon for certain European nations), why Australia didn’t really bother seriously quarantining native returnees until people started actually dying (most returnees from Australia with the virus were coming from Europe and the USA), why the USA didn’t do anything until exponential growth actually hit them.
You have to be allowed to adress certain issues though. The practice of handling and keeping different wild species, how it is done in certain parts of China is not okay. It's not "wtf batsoup disguting", it has been called a timebomb a long time ahead of this pandemic in scientific circles.
There are certain mammal species (Yes, lots of bat species among them) which should be avoided or only handled with care/special hygiene measures. Cramping those into cages and stacking them upon and next to each other is just asking for virus mutations. The butchering and handling of the meat i have seen many times (from my very limited perspective, but continuously) is also far from safe.
Not a PETA guy, just to be clear, I worked for a meat factory before and you can't even compare German standards to what ever their doing in parts of China. And sorry, it is disgusting to me and already was long before the pandemic. I hope that changes in the future. For ours and the animals sake.
+ Show Spoiler +I will not post videos, because there's a lot of graphic content and it's not the time to upset people. If you want to, just a hint: + Show Spoiler +There's a Swiss photographer, Karl Ammann who also investigated and documented illegal wildlife trade in africa and china for a decade, he has a youtube. If you check him out, be advised: To me some stuff was pretty hard to watch and in hindsight i really don't want to see how a bear gallgladder farm works.
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On April 12 2020 00:06 ThatCleanBurn wrote:
I completely agree, the finger pointing at China is the most embarrassing thing to come out of this crisis. If we’re finger pointing at China, the next virus that comes out of the USA or Western Europe is going to wreck us just as hard.
This crisis didn’t happen worldwide all of a sudden, even if China did suppress whistleblowers or whatever fingerpointing assholes outside of China want to do. There was at least a month to react to China choosing to lockdown, totalitarian style, an entire major industrial region.
The entire world reacted so poorly that we’re stuck at a point where people and the economy are simultaneously dying at a far greater degree than if we immediately instituted quarantines and lockdown measures for countries already with cases.
The main reasoning from just about every country was a misplaced idea that China is a bad country and their own respective countries could handle the virus’ spread better, it was “only” as bad as the flu and the economy trumps over everything. That’s why Japan did fuck all until Canada pulled out of the Olympics (which told the IOC that it wasn’t going to happen full stop), why Europe didn’t institute lockdowns (because flow of people is a huge economic boon for certain European nations), why Australia didn’t really bother seriously quarantining native returnees until people started actually dying (most returnees from Australia with the virus were coming from Europe and the USA), why the USA didn’t do anything until exponential growth actually hit them.
The countries pointing the finger at China are the ones that need to look at their finger first.They had bad reactions to the epidemic and want to deflect the bad press.
I don't believe any west european government is doing that.
On France's front, thing are noticeably better.
For the first time, net hospital patients are nearly level (only +50 compared to between +300 to +800 in the days prior), and for the 3rd straight day, intensive care net patients are lowering, this time significatively (-120), to 6900 in ICU, from 7150 four days ago.
Weekend numbers are usually a bit lower than weekdays (especially sunday, less so saturday), but it is a good trend.
If that trend continues, I'm still hoping for a partial lift to lockdown around the end of April, maybe on an age basis (less than 50yo, maybe less than 60). If the aim is to let people get the virus, but not overload hospitals and ICU, it would make sense.
I think the economy can survive for maybe 2 months, but even 1 1/2 is a lot (though a minimum for confinement), there is a need to mitigate the damage if we want the recovery to not take ten years.
Restaurants need to reopen at some point, with measures like half the number of tables, and gloves/masks for staff... The damage will be massive if not.
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On April 12 2020 00:06 ThatCleanBurn wrote:
I completely agree, the finger pointing at China is the most embarrassing thing to come out of this crisis. If we’re finger pointing at China, the next virus that comes out of the USA or Western Europe is going to wreck us just as hard.
This crisis didn’t happen worldwide all of a sudden, even if China did suppress whistleblowers or whatever fingerpointing assholes outside of China want to do. There was at least a month to react to China choosing to lockdown, totalitarian style, an entire major industrial region.
The entire world reacted so poorly that we’re stuck at a point where people and the economy are simultaneously dying at a far greater degree than if we immediately instituted quarantines and lockdown measures for countries already with cases.
The main reasoning from just about every country was a misplaced idea that China is a bad country and their own respective countries could handle the virus’ spread better, it was “only” as bad as the flu and the economy trumps over everything. That’s why Japan did fuck all until Canada pulled out of the Olympics (which told the IOC that it wasn’t going to happen full stop), why Europe didn’t institute lockdowns (because flow of people is a huge economic boon for certain European nations), why Australia didn’t really bother seriously quarantining native returnees until people started actually dying (most returnees from Australia with the virus were coming from Europe and the USA), why the USA didn’t do anything until exponential growth actually hit them.
We've been over this. Someone starts the fire, and is entirely to blame for the fire. Someone else wasn't prepared for a fire, and reacted poorly to the fire.
That creates 2 parties who have a lot of blame. China needs to have its face shoved into the dirt over and over because of this. They cut a lot of corners to try to appear to be a 1st world country. That's how we get situations like this. Its on them. Other countries are responsible for how they react, like Germany vs US, but that doesn't get rid of the fact that none of this should have even happened. This is a Chinese failure.
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On April 12 2020 04:29 Nouar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2020 00:06 ThatCleanBurn wrote:
I completely agree, the finger pointing at China is the most embarrassing thing to come out of this crisis. If we’re finger pointing at China, the next virus that comes out of the USA or Western Europe is going to wreck us just as hard.
This crisis didn’t happen worldwide all of a sudden, even if China did suppress whistleblowers or whatever fingerpointing assholes outside of China want to do. There was at least a month to react to China choosing to lockdown, totalitarian style, an entire major industrial region.
The entire world reacted so poorly that we’re stuck at a point where people and the economy are simultaneously dying at a far greater degree than if we immediately instituted quarantines and lockdown measures for countries already with cases.
The main reasoning from just about every country was a misplaced idea that China is a bad country and their own respective countries could handle the virus’ spread better, it was “only” as bad as the flu and the economy trumps over everything. That’s why Japan did fuck all until Canada pulled out of the Olympics (which told the IOC that it wasn’t going to happen full stop), why Europe didn’t institute lockdowns (because flow of people is a huge economic boon for certain European nations), why Australia didn’t really bother seriously quarantining native returnees until people started actually dying (most returnees from Australia with the virus were coming from Europe and the USA), why the USA didn’t do anything until exponential growth actually hit them. The countries pointing the finger at China are the ones that need to look at their finger first.They had bad reactions to the epidemic and want to deflect the bad press. I don't believe any west european government is doing that. On France's front, thing are noticeably better. For the first time, net hospital patients are nearly level (only +50 compared to between +300 to +800 in the days prior), and for the 3rd straight day, intensive care net patients are lowering, this time significatively (-120), to 6900 in ICU, from 7150 four days ago. Weekend numbers are usually a bit lower than weekdays (especially sunday, less so saturday), but it is a good trend. If that trend continues, I'm still hoping for a partial lift to lockdown around the end of April, maybe on an age basis (less than 50yo, maybe less than 60). If the aim is to let people get the virus, but not overload hospitals and ICU, it would make sense. I think the economy can survive for maybe 2 months, but even 1 1/2 is a lot (though a minimum for confinement), there is a need to mitigate the damage if we want the recovery to not take ten years. Restaurants need to reopen at some point, with measures like half the number of tables, and gloves/masks for staff... The damage will be massive if not.
Gloves in kitchens etc. are more unhygienic than bare-handed workers. Not just can't you trust anyone to change them every time they touch something different, because it's just too tedious esp. with the workload cooks face and it isn't a surgery room with the same oversight.
They don't realize when their hands are dirty, don't wash them and bacteria replicate more easily on latex than skin.
Besides, I don't think corona is spread through ingestion. Just had to mention this here because I cringe when I see cooks with gloves. Not just since corona.
Overall lots of these measures like masks while shopping, gloves etc. are more of a security feeling giver than effective protection. There's a reason hazmat suits exist.
Since this virus can persist for up to three hours in moisture/aerosol, a face mask isn't going to necessarily protect you, all it takes is a small gap between skin and mask when there's high humidity and infected people (the hospital scenario). Making sure crowded interiors are kept dry and well ventilated would be more effective.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2004973
On April 12 2020 04:47 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2020 00:06 ThatCleanBurn wrote:
I completely agree, the finger pointing at China is the most embarrassing thing to come out of this crisis. If we’re finger pointing at China, the next virus that comes out of the USA or Western Europe is going to wreck us just as hard.
This crisis didn’t happen worldwide all of a sudden, even if China did suppress whistleblowers or whatever fingerpointing assholes outside of China want to do. There was at least a month to react to China choosing to lockdown, totalitarian style, an entire major industrial region.
The entire world reacted so poorly that we’re stuck at a point where people and the economy are simultaneously dying at a far greater degree than if we immediately instituted quarantines and lockdown measures for countries already with cases.
The main reasoning from just about every country was a misplaced idea that China is a bad country and their own respective countries could handle the virus’ spread better, it was “only” as bad as the flu and the economy trumps over everything. That’s why Japan did fuck all until Canada pulled out of the Olympics (which told the IOC that it wasn’t going to happen full stop), why Europe didn’t institute lockdowns (because flow of people is a huge economic boon for certain European nations), why Australia didn’t really bother seriously quarantining native returnees until people started actually dying (most returnees from Australia with the virus were coming from Europe and the USA), why the USA didn’t do anything until exponential growth actually hit them. We've been over this. Someone starts the fire, and is entirely to blame for the fire. Someone else wasn't prepared for a fire, and reacted poorly to the fire. That creates 2 parties who have a lot of blame. China needs to have its face shoved into the dirt over and over because of this. They cut a lot of corners to try to appear to be a 1st world country. That's how we get situations like this. Its on them. Other countries are responsible for how they react, like Germany vs US, but that doesn't get rid of the fact that none of this should have even happened. This is a Chinese failure.
If you want to be consistent then, why don't you want the same for the country HIV originated from, presumably from bushmeat consumption, which also is a more devastating disease than corona is because it isn't hit or miss in who gets sick.
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Wuhan’s wet markets are back open. That alone should be cause for concern. The experts from decades past and current predict horseshoe bats, with their SARS-like coronavirae, are a ticking time bomb as long as people buy and consume them.
I also hope Michigan’s gov reverses her decision to stop the sale of *nonessential* items like home gardening seeds and baby carriers. The first so that people can have more hobbies and sustainability at home ... the second because you may not be able to take your newborn home from the hospital.
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On April 12 2020 04:47 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2020 00:06 ThatCleanBurn wrote:
I completely agree, the finger pointing at China is the most embarrassing thing to come out of this crisis. If we’re finger pointing at China, the next virus that comes out of the USA or Western Europe is going to wreck us just as hard.
This crisis didn’t happen worldwide all of a sudden, even if China did suppress whistleblowers or whatever fingerpointing assholes outside of China want to do. There was at least a month to react to China choosing to lockdown, totalitarian style, an entire major industrial region.
The entire world reacted so poorly that we’re stuck at a point where people and the economy are simultaneously dying at a far greater degree than if we immediately instituted quarantines and lockdown measures for countries already with cases.
The main reasoning from just about every country was a misplaced idea that China is a bad country and their own respective countries could handle the virus’ spread better, it was “only” as bad as the flu and the economy trumps over everything. That’s why Japan did fuck all until Canada pulled out of the Olympics (which told the IOC that it wasn’t going to happen full stop), why Europe didn’t institute lockdowns (because flow of people is a huge economic boon for certain European nations), why Australia didn’t really bother seriously quarantining native returnees until people started actually dying (most returnees from Australia with the virus were coming from Europe and the USA), why the USA didn’t do anything until exponential growth actually hit them. We've been over this. Someone starts the fire, and is entirely to blame for the fire. Someone else wasn't prepared for a fire, and reacted poorly to the fire. That creates 2 parties who have a lot of blame. China needs to have its face shoved into the dirt over and over because of this. They cut a lot of corners to try to appear to be a 1st world country. That's how we get situations like this. Its on them. Other countries are responsible for how they react, like Germany vs US, but that doesn't get rid of the fact that none of this should have even happened. This is a Chinese failure.
If you're responsible for your wall to be fireproof to the adjacent building and stop the inspections, you can't complain about your house burning down.
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This is more akin to china starting a wildfire, failing to contain it, spreading it to towns which have varying amounts of preparation to stop the wildfire. Some towns have well established wildfire programs, trained and equipped firefighters etc, others have decades old equipment, and volunteer forces.
And then you have the biggest city in the area screaming that it's a tiny fire, it'll burn out before it arrives and saying no one warned them that fires could burn down houses.
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On April 12 2020 04:59 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2020 04:29 Nouar wrote:On April 12 2020 00:06 ThatCleanBurn wrote:
I completely agree, the finger pointing at China is the most embarrassing thing to come out of this crisis. If we’re finger pointing at China, the next virus that comes out of the USA or Western Europe is going to wreck us just as hard.
This crisis didn’t happen worldwide all of a sudden, even if China did suppress whistleblowers or whatever fingerpointing assholes outside of China want to do. There was at least a month to react to China choosing to lockdown, totalitarian style, an entire major industrial region.
The entire world reacted so poorly that we’re stuck at a point where people and the economy are simultaneously dying at a far greater degree than if we immediately instituted quarantines and lockdown measures for countries already with cases.
The main reasoning from just about every country was a misplaced idea that China is a bad country and their own respective countries could handle the virus’ spread better, it was “only” as bad as the flu and the economy trumps over everything. That’s why Japan did fuck all until Canada pulled out of the Olympics (which told the IOC that it wasn’t going to happen full stop), why Europe didn’t institute lockdowns (because flow of people is a huge economic boon for certain European nations), why Australia didn’t really bother seriously quarantining native returnees until people started actually dying (most returnees from Australia with the virus were coming from Europe and the USA), why the USA didn’t do anything until exponential growth actually hit them. The countries pointing the finger at China are the ones that need to look at their finger first.They had bad reactions to the epidemic and want to deflect the bad press. I don't believe any west european government is doing that. On France's front, thing are noticeably better. For the first time, net hospital patients are nearly level (only +50 compared to between +300 to +800 in the days prior), and for the 3rd straight day, intensive care net patients are lowering, this time significatively (-120), to 6900 in ICU, from 7150 four days ago. Weekend numbers are usually a bit lower than weekdays (especially sunday, less so saturday), but it is a good trend. If that trend continues, I'm still hoping for a partial lift to lockdown around the end of April, maybe on an age basis (less than 50yo, maybe less than 60). If the aim is to let people get the virus, but not overload hospitals and ICU, it would make sense. I think the economy can survive for maybe 2 months, but even 1 1/2 is a lot (though a minimum for confinement), there is a need to mitigate the damage if we want the recovery to not take ten years. Restaurants need to reopen at some point, with measures like half the number of tables, and gloves/masks for staff... The damage will be massive if not. Gloves in kitchens etc. are more unhygienic than bare-handed workers. Not just can't you trust anyone to change them every time they touch something different, because it's just too tedious esp. with the workload cooks face and it isn't a surgery room with the same oversight. They don't realize when their hands are dirty, don't wash them and bacteria replicate more easily on latex than skin. Besides, I don't think corona is spread through ingestion. Just had to mention this here because I cringe when I see cooks with gloves. Not just since corona. Overall lots of these measures like masks while shopping, gloves etc. are more of a security feeling giver than effective protection. There's a reason hazmat suits exist. Since this virus can persist for up to three hours in moisture/aerosol, a face mask isn't going to necessarily protect you, all it takes is a small gap between skin and mask when there's high humidity and infected people (the hospital scenario). Making sure crowded interiors are kept dry and well ventilated would be more effective. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2004973
I was mostly talking about the waiters, not the cooks. They are not in contact with clients nor the plates once they exit the kitchen. Waiters touch everything though, including plates that ill people might have eaten in or at least breathed over for a long while, so either a LOT (more than usual) of hand-washing, or gloves, if they can avoid touching their face.
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On April 12 2020 05:32 Nouar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2020 04:59 Vivax wrote:On April 12 2020 04:29 Nouar wrote:On April 12 2020 00:06 ThatCleanBurn wrote:
I completely agree, the finger pointing at China is the most embarrassing thing to come out of this crisis. If we’re finger pointing at China, the next virus that comes out of the USA or Western Europe is going to wreck us just as hard.
This crisis didn’t happen worldwide all of a sudden, even if China did suppress whistleblowers or whatever fingerpointing assholes outside of China want to do. There was at least a month to react to China choosing to lockdown, totalitarian style, an entire major industrial region.
The entire world reacted so poorly that we’re stuck at a point where people and the economy are simultaneously dying at a far greater degree than if we immediately instituted quarantines and lockdown measures for countries already with cases.
The main reasoning from just about every country was a misplaced idea that China is a bad country and their own respective countries could handle the virus’ spread better, it was “only” as bad as the flu and the economy trumps over everything. That’s why Japan did fuck all until Canada pulled out of the Olympics (which told the IOC that it wasn’t going to happen full stop), why Europe didn’t institute lockdowns (because flow of people is a huge economic boon for certain European nations), why Australia didn’t really bother seriously quarantining native returnees until people started actually dying (most returnees from Australia with the virus were coming from Europe and the USA), why the USA didn’t do anything until exponential growth actually hit them. The countries pointing the finger at China are the ones that need to look at their finger first.They had bad reactions to the epidemic and want to deflect the bad press. I don't believe any west european government is doing that. On France's front, thing are noticeably better. For the first time, net hospital patients are nearly level (only +50 compared to between +300 to +800 in the days prior), and for the 3rd straight day, intensive care net patients are lowering, this time significatively (-120), to 6900 in ICU, from 7150 four days ago. Weekend numbers are usually a bit lower than weekdays (especially sunday, less so saturday), but it is a good trend. If that trend continues, I'm still hoping for a partial lift to lockdown around the end of April, maybe on an age basis (less than 50yo, maybe less than 60). If the aim is to let people get the virus, but not overload hospitals and ICU, it would make sense. I think the economy can survive for maybe 2 months, but even 1 1/2 is a lot (though a minimum for confinement), there is a need to mitigate the damage if we want the recovery to not take ten years. Restaurants need to reopen at some point, with measures like half the number of tables, and gloves/masks for staff... The damage will be massive if not. Gloves in kitchens etc. are more unhygienic than bare-handed workers. Not just can't you trust anyone to change them every time they touch something different, because it's just too tedious esp. with the workload cooks face and it isn't a surgery room with the same oversight. They don't realize when their hands are dirty, don't wash them and bacteria replicate more easily on latex than skin. Besides, I don't think corona is spread through ingestion. Just had to mention this here because I cringe when I see cooks with gloves. Not just since corona. Overall lots of these measures like masks while shopping, gloves etc. are more of a security feeling giver than effective protection. There's a reason hazmat suits exist. Since this virus can persist for up to three hours in moisture/aerosol, a face mask isn't going to necessarily protect you, all it takes is a small gap between skin and mask when there's high humidity and infected people (the hospital scenario). Making sure crowded interiors are kept dry and well ventilated would be more effective. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2004973 I was mostly talking about the waiters, not the cooks. They are not in contact with clients nor the plates once they exit the kitchen. Waiters touch everything though, including plates that ill people might have eaten in or at least breathed over for a long while, so either a LOT (more than usual) of hand-washing, or gloves, if they can avoid touching their face. Do they replace their gloves every time they clear plates off a table? Because else they will get it on their gloves when they take away a plate. Put it on an outgoing plate when they bring it to a table and then someone eats off of it, touching the plate and their face ect.
You need to actually properly use gloves and properly replace them constantly if you want it to be effective.
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On April 12 2020 05:14 Lmui wrote:
This is more akin to china starting a wildfire, failing to contain it, spreading it to towns which have varying amounts of preparation to stop the wildfire. Some towns have well established wildfire programs, trained and equipped firefighters etc, others have decades old equipment, and volunteer forces.
And then you have the biggest city in the area screaming that it's a tiny fire, it'll burn out before it arrives and saying no one warned them that fires could burn down houses.
Pretty sure my analogy is accurate here.
Every supporting argument runs into the policitcal category so we'll have to leave it at us disagreeing on the blame game.
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On April 12 2020 04:59 Vivax wrote:[...] Overall lots of these measures like masks while shopping, gloves etc. are more of a security feeling giver than effective protection. There's a reason hazmat suits exist. Since this virus can persist for up to three hours in moisture/aerosol, a face mask isn't going to necessarily protect you, all it takes is a small gap between skin and mask when there's high humidity and infected people (the hospital scenario). Making sure crowded interiors are kept dry and well ventilated would be more effective. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2004973[...]
I think that's supposed to be taken the other way around. A mask isn't going to protect you from getting the virus. But if you have been infected recently, don't show symptoms yet or won't at all, wearing a mask will reduce the number of people you infect unknowingly while shopping before realizing that you do have it.
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On April 12 2020 07:07 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2020 04:59 Vivax wrote:[...] Overall lots of these measures like masks while shopping, gloves etc. are more of a security feeling giver than effective protection. There's a reason hazmat suits exist. Since this virus can persist for up to three hours in moisture/aerosol, a face mask isn't going to necessarily protect you, all it takes is a small gap between skin and mask when there's high humidity and infected people (the hospital scenario). Making sure crowded interiors are kept dry and well ventilated would be more effective. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2004973[...] I think that's supposed to be taken the other way around. A mask isn't going to protect you from getting the virus. But if you have been infected recently, don't show symptoms yet or won't at all, wearing a mask will reduce the number of people you infect unknowingly while shopping before realizing that you do have it.
Yeah it surely helps as a droplet-catcher. But I'm not sure this is a sneeze inducing thing, and a dry cough implies little to no droplets, though moisture in the air can make up for that.
Either way, it feels a bit more like it's going back to semi-normal around here, except for the obligatory masks starting tuesday. More peeps outside and some restaurants opening.
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Unless I’m wrong, it seems like most people would probably agree with the following points?
1. Global wildlife meat needs to banned (not only in China, but everywhere)
2. Chinese govt response was initially slow and bad, but they took drastic measures in late Jan and have managed the first wave of this pandemic
3. A lot of the Chinese finger pointing by govts are a political tactic to distract from their own domestic failings
4. Virus most likely originated from China - attempts by Chinese govt to dispute this is propaganda
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Can't ban wildlife meat. Its an important protein source all around the world.
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On April 12 2020 09:18 Garbels wrote:
Can't ban wildlife meat. Its an important protein source all around the world.
You can ban business's from selling wildlife meat and regulate the hunting of wildlife in the areas it comes up. Chronic wasting disease is a potentially serious issue in deer hunting in the midwest but is constantly monitored and is well regulated alongside deer seasons in the various state departments of natural resources.
It would be one thing if this was the first plague that came from bats from China. This is at least the third they knew this would happen and they did nothing to stop it from happening. People who support china at this point are either carrying water for them or are wildly misinformed on wet markets.
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On April 12 2020 14:20 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2020 09:18 Garbels wrote:
Can't ban wildlife meat. Its an important protein source all around the world. You can ban business's from selling wildlife meat and regulate the hunting of wildlife in the areas it comes up. Chronic wasting disease is a potentially serious issue in deer hunting in the midwest but is constantly monitored and is well regulated alongside deer seasons in the various state departments of natural resources. It would be one thing if this was the first plague that came from bats from China. This is at least the third they knew this would happen and they did nothing to stop it from happening. People who support china at this point are either carrying water for them or are wildly misinformed on wet markets.
HIV and the last Ebola epidemic almost certainly came from people hunting chimpansees. That's already highly illegal, as is hunting pangolins in China (or elsewhere) but that hasn't stopped people from hunting them. Not a reason not to ban it, of course, just pointing out that merely banning (and even enforcing) won't solve this problem.
It's also worth mentioning that bushmeat isn't the only culprit for nasty new viral epidemics. The last few new flu epidemics came from poor farming practices.
This is far bigger than simply wagging a finger at China and saying "fix it".
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On April 12 2020 07:43 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2020 07:07 Toadesstern wrote:On April 12 2020 04:59 Vivax wrote:[...] Overall lots of these measures like masks while shopping, gloves etc. are more of a security feeling giver than effective protection. There's a reason hazmat suits exist. Since this virus can persist for up to three hours in moisture/aerosol, a face mask isn't going to necessarily protect you, all it takes is a small gap between skin and mask when there's high humidity and infected people (the hospital scenario). Making sure crowded interiors are kept dry and well ventilated would be more effective. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2004973[...] I think that's supposed to be taken the other way around. A mask isn't going to protect you from getting the virus. But if you have been infected recently, don't show symptoms yet or won't at all, wearing a mask will reduce the number of people you infect unknowingly while shopping before realizing that you do have it. Yeah it surely helps as a droplet-catcher. But I'm not sure this is a sneeze inducing thing, and a dry cough implies little to no droplets, though moisture in the air can make up for that. Either way, it feels a bit more like it's going back to semi-normal around here, except for the obligatory masks starting tuesday. More peeps outside and some restaurants opening.
Citation needed
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No citation needed, if your breath, whether cough or not, has no droplets, you are already dead since your body is a dry dessicated husk. Of course if you are dead you can't cough. Maybe Vivax is an undead? Where has this recent idea that your breath can have no moisture at all come fom? First Slydie, now Vivax. Something is peddling this nonsense.
User was warned for this post
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EPT
