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On October 13 2019 06:35 Liquid`Drone wrote:
But that's different from expecting everyone on staff to have or agree with a phrased statement regarding 'free Hong Hong'. I honestly haven't read what the demands from protesters are, to what degree they are a unified movement, to what degree they represent the majority of the population, what China is refusing to grant them, etc. I expect that if I read up more about it, it would make me favor the protesters even more, but still, I don't want to make strong arguments for a situation where I am this ignorant.. LGBT rights are a much 'simpler', and something I do expect all staff members to support.
Their demands are:
-Full withdrawal of the extradition bill from the legislative process
-Retraction of the characterization of the protests as "riots"
-Release and exoneration of arrested protesters
-Establishment of an independent commission of inquiry into police behavior
-Universal suffrage for Legislative Council and Chief Executive elections
-Resignation of Carrie Lam (Chief Executive of Hong Kong)
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On October 13 2019 02:28 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
China good.
They got to him. Check to make sure the family isn't kidnapped.
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I would also like a statement from the Team Liquid organization on this matter.
I'm not looking for TL to take a stance on the issue of Hong Kong as that would be unfair and irresponsible to demand an organization to take a side on an issue they are not involved or familiar with. What I do want a statement about are two things: firstly, to what extent and in what forms should players allowed to speak about controversial topics, and secondly, to what extent should players and casters conduct themselves to adhere to the laws and norms of other countries?
As we have seen with the Blizzard incident and various other incidents in the past week, there are no established norms in these regards and the tournament rules have been vague and inconsistently enforced. As one of the biggest and oldest esports organizations as well as a pioneer of competitive gaming, TL has a responsibility to play part in establishing these norms so that players and esports personnel know what they can and cannot do going forward.
What is causing a lot of uncertainty for me as well as many others is that what Blitzchung said in a post-game interview was fairly innocuous but was met with one of the swiftest and most severe punishments in esports history. Blizzard has still yet to provide a reasonable rationale for their decision or clarify their ambiguous rules. What we have also seen with several other incidents this past week is that entire organizations and events have been cancelled over what individuals have posted or liked on their personal social media account.
Going forward, there needs to be clear and unambiguous rules as well as their penalties set out that everyone agrees to beforehand. This way, individuals are better able to abide by these rules and other countries should not be able to unexpectedly withdraw from contracts because someone tweets something that may hurt national dignity.
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Norway28914 Posts
Again, I don't think this is where you get a statement from the team liquid organization. Can only give my own opinion.
I've always been very negative towards 'sport/entertainment and politics don't mix' attitudes. That attitude is a powerful mechanism for enabling the oppressing of powerless people all around the world, always has been. (Provide bread and circus and the people won't revolt, etc. ) Influential role models who are given a platform to speak out to the public are some of the best tools we have for enabling social change through democratic pressure.
But I think it takes someone with intimate knowledge of the issue to make that stand.
As for the second question; myself, I don't care much about laws from a 'moral' perspective. Laws are often derived from morality - but not always. There are countless examples throughout history of countries and regions enforcing laws that are obvious immoral; I think there are fewer examples of the people who are part of a culture rejecting the silver rule, for example. (Not that I have this quantified in any way.) And I want people to act according to their moral compass rather than according to laws - at least people who have a functional moral compass.
However, it might also be very stupid, on a personal level, to break foreign laws in a foreign country that you disagree with. I think this is more an issue of tournament organizers (in all sports, certainly not just esport) choosing to host events in countries with human rights issues than it is with the athletes participating. Athletes normally have limited time to make their mark, they're often kinda desperate to compete, and few are in a position where their personal boycott will make a big dent.
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On October 13 2019 03:14 zenist wrote:
I remember users getting banned for criticizing Blizzard's SC2 before
You could criticize SC2 all you wanted in threads that were dedicated to opinions as long as you didn't try piss off someone. F.e. in dedicated story threads I called Metzen "the Uwe Boll of video games" for the writing quality in SC2 and not even got warning for that. But yeah, there was some bans like that, alas that was probably for more than just critics.
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On October 13 2019 03:28 Liquid`Drone wrote:
And then I've registered that big protests have been happening, initially over some extradition law pertaining whether people from Hong Kong could be extradited to China, but where the protesters started demanding more, in form of 'western democracy' and freedom of speech, etc, where tensions have been increasing.
People in HK already enjoy freedom of speech, otherwise there would not be a protest to begin with. What they wanted ultimately is free democratic elections to ensure the governing body does not become a puppet of China. The younger generation constitutes the majority of the protesters. They are afraid of what will happen in 2047 when the 50 year agreement ends. This sentiment has been building up for quite some time, the extradition law is just a fuse that lit the whole thing up.
Many people in the mainland originally sympathized with this movement. They later got turned away as news coverage revealed a minority of protesters starting to demand independence/secession, even though the official list of demands contain no such things. I just came back from a visit to HK, the slogans/graffiti around the city definitely contain phrases suggesting taking HK back to the colonial times under western rule, so at least this part is true. So when people in the west makes a public statement such as "Free HK", people in the mainland would interpret it as calling for HK's secession from China. This is a big no-no in a very nationalistic country.
You said it well, not many people would be willing to admit not knowing enough to make a stance. The biased media coverage fueled the escalation of the matter, driving people apart and forcing everyone to take sides on this with an incomplete picture of the whole situation.
I also agree with you that China has exercised much restraints in dealing with the HK situation compared to other minority groups such as Tibet. People are jumping on this issue because it is being made a big deal by the news channels. Sometimes, freedom of the press can do more harm than good if it does not provide unbiased, independent coverage.
It would be wise for foreign corporations to stay out of matters concerning the sovereignty of the state. When people who live locally don't even have the complete picture of what's going on, how do you expect these entities to take an official stance?
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On October 13 2019 18:45 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Again, I don't think this is where you get a statement from the team liquid organization. Can only give my own opinion.
I've always been very negative towards 'sport/entertainment and politics don't mix' attitudes. That attitude is a powerful mechanism for enabling the oppressing of powerless people all around the world, always has been. (Provide bread and circus and the people won't revolt, etc. ) Influential role models who are given a platform to speak out to the public are some of the best tools we have for enabling social change through democratic pressure.
But I think it takes someone with intimate knowledge of the issue to make that stand.
As for the second question; myself, I don't care much about laws from a 'moral' perspective. Laws are often derived from morality - but not always. There are countless examples throughout history of countries and regions enforcing laws that are obvious immoral; I think there are fewer examples of the people who are part of a culture rejecting the silver rule, for example. (Not that I have this quantified in any way.) And I want people to act according to their moral compass rather than according to laws - at least people who have a functional moral compass.
However, it might also be very stupid, on a personal level, to break foreign laws in a foreign country that you disagree with. I think this is more an issue of tournament organizers (in all sports, certainly not just esport) choosing to host events in countries with human rights issues than it is with the athletes participating. Athletes normally have limited time to make their mark, they're often kinda desperate to compete, and few are in a position where their personal boycott will make a big dent.
I think everybody here understands the difference between TL.net, the community site and Team Liquid, the pro-gaming team. That difference has definitely been getting bigger over time. But surely some of the staff that post here are capable of sending an internal email to Nazgul (or whatever minion he has put in charge of PR) about this question? If they don't want to respond here, but instead put out a tweet, a press release or a statement on teamliquid.com that is a perfectly adequate way to respond, but I don't see why, given how this *has* come to the attention to TL.net staffers who are also affiliated with the pro team, this is not an equally viable channel for raising the issue as sending them a tweet? Who put twitter in charge of all official communication? :O
And I think Chairman Ray's questions are quite fair questions to ask of a pro-gaming tema with the pedigree of Team Liquid.. Lets assume, for the sake of hypothesis, that Snute shares blitzchung's political views. Does Team Liquid allow him to tweet his political views? What if a pro-gramer were to take advantage of a tournament setting (e.g. Blizzcon or The International) with far more viewers than their twitter account to write in all chat (or say so up on the mainstage in the post-game interview) "Liberate Hong Kong, revolution of our age"?
Would Team Liquid take steps to protect this player from Blizzard's wrath? Would they drop them from the team if banned by Blizzard? Would they pre-emptively drop them from the team to protect them from Chinese wrath failling upon them?
In other words, how free are Team Liquid players to express their political views? Even if this angers a potential business partner?
I guess this goes in general. If Snute really doesn't find Maxnomic chairs comfortable, is he allowed to say so in an interview if someone asks him?
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Norway28914 Posts
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
Dario is speaking sense there, at least to my sensibilities anyway.
TL’s actions here have largely spoken larger than words, although I would still like an ‘official’ statement nonetheless. Writers etc have all given opinions on this matter, to various degrees of forthrightness, so it’s pretty apparent that TL are giving the autonomy to the individuals under its rough banner and there is no ‘party line’ as such.
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Lalalaland34507 Posts
Most of the people who work for TL community or Liquid are the kind of people who fit into the community. The kind of people who fit in this community tend to be people who hold similar principles. The intensity to which we hold those principles varies but fundamentally we all agree that personal freedoms are important.
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The way I see it, a player took advantage of his competitor status and hid behind the covers of the Blizzard platform to make a political statement he knows is controversial to the Chinese public.
His actions brought Blizzard into the a lose-lose situation as there is going to be backlash from either China or the west depending on how it responded.
He obviously has the rights to express his political views. However, using the platform he was provided to compete in as a means to fulfill his own agenda is neither appropriate nor defensible.
I don't see anything wrong with the way Blizzard reacted in order to protect their own interests. The backlash, in this case from the west, is just evidence of the damage he caused to the brand that has made no political stances in the past.
It doesn't make sense to ask an organization that operates internationally to protect a player from speeches/actions under their brand that agitated an entire population.
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hid behind the covers of the Blizzard platform to make a political statement he knows is controversial to the Chinese public.
braindead take, he did the direct opposite of "hiding". He used the big stage he had to make his statement as impactful as possible.
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Why this trying to force other organisations to take a side?
Its like "if you are not with us you are against us? Its dumb and annoying. If people want to take a side they will do so as they please and if not then well that's their choice. It doesn't mean anything other then that they don't want to publicly chose a side. I find it very rude to try force other people to take a side.
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TLADT24920 Posts
Not sure what you were expecting OP. For starters, as mentioned, this is a community of volunteers. There is no link with the pro-team and that was part of the reason we separated with a different url/name so that people recognize this is a community forum vs the pro-team site.The best you would've gotten is what you already got, personal opinions from different staff members on the situation. Furthermore, there's no reason for even the pro-team to take a stance on this. Doing so would be frankly stupid considering they have no role in this. Why invite trouble when it's not even knocking at your door?
As for my take, the situation in HK is really nuanced and quite complex, aka it's not as black and white as some claim, but facts are facts when it comes to what went down. Blizzard was certainly within their right to punish the player and casters for the political statement considering they have rules to follow, but the length and type is up for debate imo. I believe taking the prize money was a mistake since the player won fairly, so I'm glad to see they rescinded on that. I'm also glad to see that they modified the ban because perming for the casters, even if they prompted the player, was a bad idea imo. Is 6 months for all three a good duration? Is it a measured response? I have no clue.
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Canada8991 Posts
I'll step in to say that I am highly disappointed in the responses given, as someone who always diligently respected the values of this website and the staff who enforced them, learning today that these individuals were in fact only part time so called "volunteers" and not soulless and eternal dispenser of the god given rule of law was a brutal smack in the face. If even TL mods aren't able to give a definitive answer on a geopolitical situation than who could?
With that said I guess I would like a Teamliquid stance on this like I would like a stance from every other esport company, but if we are at the point were we want corporation to do politics at our place we might want to drop democracy all together.
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You seem to be on quite the conquest man...
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Osaka27179 Posts
On October 13 2019 01:30 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:TeamLiquid in the past has supported LGBT and has taken other political stances in the past. It has remained oddly silent on the on going fiasco that is Activision Blizzard. Not even a “What they did was in poor taste but we’re going to keep playing in their tournaments.” as some others have done. Having taken stances in the past, I feel it does NOT give you a free pass to sit this out. Except maybe you’re being forced to since you’re sponsored, in part, by China as well via Huya.com which is owned by YY Inc which is ran by China’s propaganda department. Regardless if the site as a whole is being pressured to stay quiet. I ASK for an answer. + Show Spoiler +I’ve been coming to this site for a long time and I consider it my main hangout but depending on how TL moves forward on this will determine my reaction. I’m hoping to hear something by next week or I’ll have to take a stance against TL and any other pro-team taking Chinese money as well.
Aggressive post, with many assumptions. To me it sounds like you want to hear a specific message from TL, and not what TL actually thinks. This, combined with your comments about taking it to social media make me think that your inquiry about our opinion is disingenuous. Nobody here is going to be held hostage by your feelings about this.
I also don't think that because TL has a stance about one issue (recognizing LGBT rights) that it has to make a statement about all other issues. Should we comment about the current mess in Syria? What about climate change?
Of course, this issue feels much closer to TL as it is about the company whose game we play. Should we put out an editorial? Should we cover it like news? I am not in those conversations. That being said, TL is a fan site. As others have said, perhaps the TL pro team / business will make a statement, but I don't think there is any obligation for people working on a fan site to give anything more than their own personal opinions. I also don't think those opinions should carry any more weight than any other poster on the site unless it directly affects the operation of the site.
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@Psyonic_Reaver
Bullying others into sharing your political opinion or even taking a stance by public shaming is as wrong as to enforce inhumane political propaganda for market access.
It's just an asshole move. I wanted to do the same, calling out a streamer for moderating "Hong Kong" in chat, but actually deleted the post, rather asked via Twitter. Turns out chat was just being stupidly spammed, the chinese did not give a single fuck, it was just ruining the stream for everyone.
Use this:
https://tl.net/contactus.php
to get an answer.
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On October 16 2019 05:50 Paljas wrote:Show nested quote +hid behind the covers of the Blizzard platform to make a political statement he knows is controversial to the Chinese public.
braindead take, he did the direct opposite of "hiding". He used the big stage he had to make his statement as impactful as possible.
He chose this platform specifically to reach the Chinese audience, and the only impact he made was further dividing the people on both sides. Repeating some slogan without understanding what it means is what drives mob mentality, not real change.
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Well, if your moral compass is pocketed when choosing a sponsor, you still pay for the consequences, as you essentially advocate for morals you don't condone.for mammon. Arguing monetary gain, doesn't get anyone off the hook. Fortunately, i dare say.
As they say, you vote with your wallet.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/RzUVCIm.jpg)
