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On October 13 2019 11:17 Shock710 wrote:wtf this is a stupid ass demand...just because they have support a previous political issue doesnt mean they have to respond to every single one of them what dressing them up as captain america because of their marvel partnership? wtf does that have to do with anything. You cant actually be serious in saying some LoL team wearing an american super hero t-shirt means they support america? What kind of leap in logic is this
Given that Teamliquid.net is largely a Blizzard fansite (there was liquidhearth, and their is a specific forum for Heroes of the Storm), I see this as being an issue that needs to be addressed. I see significantly more overlap between Teamliquid and Hong Kong (post-Blizzard) than their ever was between Teamliquid and LGBT issues.
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On October 16 2019 23:29 Monochromatic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2019 11:17 Shock710 wrote:wtf this is a stupid ass demand...just because they have support a previous political issue doesnt mean they have to respond to every single one of them what dressing them up as captain america because of their marvel partnership? wtf does that have to do with anything. You cant actually be serious in saying some LoL team wearing an american super hero t-shirt means they support america? What kind of leap in logic is this Given that Teamliquid.net is largely a Blizzard fansite (there was liquidhearth, and their is a specific forum for Heroes of the Storm), I see this as being an issue that needs to be addressed. I see significantly more overlap between Teamliquid and Hong Kong (post-Blizzard) than their ever was between Teamliquid and LGBT issues. Apart from being a fan site (please read this part again), people asking for teamliquid's statement are either looking to be outraged if the teamliquid statement isn't literally some "free hong kong" thing or patting themselves on the back thinking man i'm am such a good defender for justice by using this site that agrees with my own opinions.
Also, thats rather pompous of you to think LGBT doesnt have a huge interaction with the gaming culture, we literally have a thread of gay gamers on teamliquid. The derogatory and homophobic terms have been apart of toxic gaming culture from sinces its multiplayer became a thing. There was a huge amount of backlash and toxic behavior when a certain player rose through the ranks to become a top contender. Liquidhearth died ages back, even before the official forum closed, and if starcraft being a blizzard game is the assoication and this being a site dedicate to their game we might as well close the whole thing down. As according to some people even playing their game counts as not supporting human rights.
I suspect most of the outrage by people here is continuously fuel by browsing reddit and imgur, the amount of meme shit and outrage for the sake of outrage (with no actual contribution) over here is insane. I'm not saying we shouldn't fight for human rights but this current way of doing it is ridiculous in my eyes.
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Does tl.net not have any kind of leadership or hierarchy at all? Who makes the decision to change the logo to rainbow colors during pride week, or to put a top hat on it when a dearly loved caster passes away? Is it just agreed upon between the mods? If so, what's stopping the seemingly united mods on this subject from making a combined statement on behalf of tl.net like you do with other things?
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Off topic, but can someone tell me when this hard separation between teamliquid.net today's Team Liquid corporation happened?
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On October 16 2019 22:08 Glacierz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2019 05:50 Paljas wrote:hid behind the covers of the Blizzard platform to make a political statement he knows is controversial to the Chinese public.
braindead take, he did the direct opposite of "hiding". He used the big stage he had to make his statement as impactful as possible. He chose this platform specifically to reach the Chinese audience, and the only impact he made was further dividing the people on both sides. Repeating some slogan without understanding what it means is what drives mob mentality, not real change. How do you know that he doesnt understand what he said? How do you know that the didnt just chose the platform because it was the biggest he had? And since when is "he divides people" an argument for not speaking up about an such fundamental issues?
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On October 17 2019 01:28 Shock710 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2019 23:29 Monochromatic wrote:On October 13 2019 11:17 Shock710 wrote:wtf this is a stupid ass demand...just because they have support a previous political issue doesnt mean they have to respond to every single one of them what dressing them up as captain america because of their marvel partnership? wtf does that have to do with anything. You cant actually be serious in saying some LoL team wearing an american super hero t-shirt means they support america? What kind of leap in logic is this Given that Teamliquid.net is largely a Blizzard fansite (there was liquidhearth, and their is a specific forum for Heroes of the Storm), I see this as being an issue that needs to be addressed. I see significantly more overlap between Teamliquid and Hong Kong (post-Blizzard) than their ever was between Teamliquid and LGBT issues. Apart from being a fan site (please read this part again), people asking for teamliquid's statement are either looking to be outraged if the teamliquid statement isn't literally some "free hong kong" thing or patting themselves on the back thinking man i'm am such a good defender for justice by using this site that agrees with my own opinions. Also, thats rather pompous of you to think LGBT doesnt have a huge interaction with the gaming culture, we literally have a thread of gay gamers on teamliquid. The derogatory and homophobic terms have been apart of toxic gaming culture from sinces its multiplayer became a thing. There was a huge amount of backlash and toxic behavior when a certain player rose through the ranks to become a top contender. Liquidhearth died ages back, even before the official forum closed, and if starcraft being a blizzard game is the assoication and this being a site dedicate to their game we might as well close the whole thing down. As according to some people even playing their game counts as not supporting human rights. I suspect most of the outrage by people here is continuously fuel by browsing reddit and imgur, the amount of meme shit and outrage for the sake of outrage (with no actual contribution) over here is insane. I'm not saying we shouldn't fight for human rights but this current way of doing it is ridiculous in my eyes. Blizzard did wrong, and the majority of organizations deeply partnered with them are silent. I say this particularly in the week where the prize money was totally revoked and a 1 yr ban was in place.
The question on LGBT was primarily when people claimed the organization didn’t speak out on issues, but let their volunteer staff speak as they wished. How are gamers to know if TL will crumble and not support their gamers, if A TL SC2 or Dota 2 player tweeted something about Hong Kong and was banned from tournaments in China for life? Why is Blizzard the subject of boycotts, when so few other orgs make brave, public statements showing they won’t be next to fall when China acts petulantly? These questions are important.
(I’m not downplaying my gratitude that so many individuals have spoken out in their private capacity)
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On October 17 2019 01:28 Shock710 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2019 23:29 Monochromatic wrote:On October 13 2019 11:17 Shock710 wrote:wtf this is a stupid ass demand...just because they have support a previous political issue doesnt mean they have to respond to every single one of them what dressing them up as captain america because of their marvel partnership? wtf does that have to do with anything. You cant actually be serious in saying some LoL team wearing an american super hero t-shirt means they support america? What kind of leap in logic is this Given that Teamliquid.net is largely a Blizzard fansite (there was liquidhearth, and their is a specific forum for Heroes of the Storm), I see this as being an issue that needs to be addressed. I see significantly more overlap between Teamliquid and Hong Kong (post-Blizzard) than their ever was between Teamliquid and LGBT issues. Apart from being a fan site (please read this part again), people asking for teamliquid's statement are either looking to be outraged if the teamliquid statement isn't literally some "free hong kong" thing or patting themselves on the back thinking man i'm am such a good defender for justice by using this site that agrees with my own opinions. Also, thats rather pompous of you to think LGBT doesnt have a huge interaction with the gaming culture, we literally have a thread of gay gamers on teamliquid. The derogatory and homophobic terms have been apart of toxic gaming culture from sinces its multiplayer became a thing. There was a huge amount of backlash and toxic behavior when a certain player rose through the ranks to become a top contender. Liquidhearth died ages back, even before the official forum closed, and if starcraft being a blizzard game is the assoication and this being a site dedicate to their game we might as well close the whole thing down. As according to some people even playing their game counts as not supporting human rights. I suspect most of the outrage by people here is continuously fuel by browsing reddit and imgur, the amount of meme shit and outrage for the sake of outrage (with no actual contribution) over here is insane. I'm not saying we shouldn't fight for human rights but this current way of doing it is ridiculous in my eyes.
Maybe I should clarify, I see teamliquid as both a Blizzard and Esports Forum. I don't think anyone can or will argue with that statement. When the biggest Esports new of the year happens, I expect them to cover it. As well as the biggest Blizzard news of the year.
The Blitzcheung event made international headlines. When I first heard about it, I came to teamliquid, and I was surprised to see nothing. I believe this deserves coverage, and I expect it (we got an official thread when Morhaime stepped down, for example).
What I don't expect is for teamliquid to report on LGBT issues - because they never have in the past. That's what I meant when I said there's more overlap between TL and the Hong Kong situation than the LGBT community. If they never changed the icon for pride week no one would care, as there was no expectation for them to do so to begin with.
I hardly think the outrage is manufactured. I've been following the protests since they began. Just today, the leader of the Civil Human Rights Front was beaten half to death by men with hammers and is in the hospital. That's not something that should happen.
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On October 17 2019 01:28 Shock710 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2019 23:29 Monochromatic wrote:On October 13 2019 11:17 Shock710 wrote:wtf this is a stupid ass demand...just because they have support a previous political issue doesnt mean they have to respond to every single one of them what dressing them up as captain america because of their marvel partnership? wtf does that have to do with anything. You cant actually be serious in saying some LoL team wearing an american super hero t-shirt means they support america? What kind of leap in logic is this Given that Teamliquid.net is largely a Blizzard fansite (there was liquidhearth, and their is a specific forum for Heroes of the Storm), I see this as being an issue that needs to be addressed. I see significantly more overlap between Teamliquid and Hong Kong (post-Blizzard) than their ever was between Teamliquid and LGBT issues. Apart from being a fan site (please read this part again), people asking for teamliquid's statement are either looking to be outraged if the teamliquid statement isn't literally some "free hong kong" thing or patting themselves on the back thinking man i'm am such a good defender for justice by using this site that agrees with my own opinions. Also, thats rather pompous of you to think LGBT doesnt have a huge interaction with the gaming culture, we literally have a thread of gay gamers on teamliquid. The derogatory and homophobic terms have been apart of toxic gaming culture from sinces its multiplayer became a thing. There was a huge amount of backlash and toxic behavior when a certain player rose through the ranks to become a top contender. Liquidhearth died ages back, even before the official forum closed, and if starcraft being a blizzard game is the assoication and this being a site dedicate to their game we might as well close the whole thing down. As according to some people even playing their game counts as not supporting human rights. I suspect most of the outrage by people here is continuously fuel by browsing reddit and imgur, the amount of meme shit and outrage for the sake of outrage (with no actual contribution) over here is insane. I'm not saying we shouldn't fight for human rights but this current way of doing it is ridiculous in my eyes.
Uh the talk about hte backlash about the certain player is nonsense. I was on those threads and people were broadly *very* supportive. They put up good results at the time too which helped. This talk about a backlash is massively revisionist to justify moralism from some people.
The outrage is because people claimed the moral high ground fighting politics within the West but shut the hell up when there's a clear injustice by an opponent that can put pain back on you. They're aggressively fighting the culture war in the west to fight the culture war. Some of which made the world nicer some of which was simply bringing politics in.
The whole topic is moot though because it's not like TL was a beacon of LGBT rights back when the player was breaking through. I don't remember pride months here? It's not a moral leader and that's Ok for a gaming site. It comes across as a little hypocritical now with the active LGBT stance** and a little disappointing with TL's attachment to Asia but acceptable. Still produce excellent content and are the best aggregator of SC. Hypocrisy is what vice pays to virtue etc.
**Which can run the gamut of a movement's positions. Do not want to argue about that even if we're likely in alignment on 90%.
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On October 16 2019 16:40 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2019 01:30 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:TeamLiquid in the past has supported LGBT and has taken other political stances in the past. It has remained oddly silent on the on going fiasco that is Activision Blizzard. Not even a “What they did was in poor taste but we’re going to keep playing in their tournaments.” as some others have done. Having taken stances in the past, I feel it does NOT give you a free pass to sit this out. Except maybe you’re being forced to since you’re sponsored, in part, by China as well via Huya.com which is owned by YY Inc which is ran by China’s propaganda department. Regardless if the site as a whole is being pressured to stay quiet. I ASK for an answer. + Show Spoiler +I’ve been coming to this site for a long time and I consider it my main hangout but depending on how TL moves forward on this will determine my reaction. I’m hoping to hear something by next week or I’ll have to take a stance against TL and any other pro-team taking Chinese money as well. Aggressive post, with many assumptions. To me it sounds like you want to hear a specific message from TL, and not what TL actually thinks. This, combined with your comments about taking it to social media make me think that your inquiry about our opinion is disingenuous. Nobody here is going to be held hostage by your feelings about this. I also don't think that because TL has a stance about one issue (recognizing LGBT rights) that it has to make a statement about all other issues. Should we comment about the current mess in Syria? What about climate change? Of course, this issue feels much closer to TL as it is about the company whose game we play. Should we put out an editorial? Should we cover it like news? I am not in those conversations. That being said, TL is a fan site. As others have said, perhaps the TL pro team / business will make a statement, but I don't think there is any obligation for people working on a fan site to give anything more than their own personal opinions. I also don't think those opinions should carry any more weight than any other poster on the site unless it directly affects the operation of the site. I like the nuance here, even in disagreement. TL does not have a responsibility to weigh in on every divisive political issue. I disagree with activists that push for that style of corporate social responsibility. This issue involved gamers, and a games company, that is intimately connected to TeamLiquid. It raises questions about how TL would react if it was one of its players, or if it’s stance on LGBT social issues was only made in the absence of monetary and operational consequences (and I’m in no way suggesting that it’s clear it was). It raises questions about the society of eSports teams and whether they would show solidarity if China bans one from tournaments hosted in their country (a semi-parallel to when the NBA’s Daryl Morey prompted China to suddenly cease broadcasting).
In one sense, TeamLiquid transitioned from being just a fan site, to being a broad organization with a fan site and multiple international esports teams, sponsorships. In another sense, its fan site continued operation as mostly the same discussion forum that it was initially, so it’s kinda the same. The individual mod posts of their opinion on this side of things are totally appropriate. The TL.net side of operations is not at fault, as much as some have leveled their commentary on that side.
I’m trying to explain a topic without a lot of form to it. Blizzard operates in a craven manner. What means of group action can make them think twice when the next Chinese craziness of a Hong Kong level occurs? One would be companies showing open resilience at unreasonable demands. China goes batshit crazy about a tweet, the NBA acts dismissively of their response and protects their owner. Blizzard gets a notice from China about a player’s protest, Blizzard says the most they’ll do is a small fine or suspension. Blizzard caves to an unreasonable Chinese demand, every eSports team uses back channels and then public channels to express their displeasure.
I turn now to this issue’s interactions with gamers. Gamers should desire their gaming teams to not behave like profit-seeking international corporations in the area of international controversy. The teams are fan-facing. Everyone cheers for their team because they feel a personal connection or attachment to their success and fun development and pursuit of skill & teamwork. Next, many expect the teams to be defenders of their players’ interests in the areas of visa issues, unfair tournament rules, false prize money, and others. They do not have a ton of power to effect change in this area. The small amount they do have is influence on public opinion and raising awareness of problems within the community.
I see bad ends to actions like (presumably) China’s threats to Blizzard and China’s threats and actions against the NBA. If they can use access to their markets for corporate game companies, they can do the same to eSports teams. A small group of politically powerful Chinese politicians are willing to ban and censor, and hit any vulnerable financial ties of companies with their country for the smallest level of criticism. I think this is a pretty well-understood state of affairs. I have no idea if the leader after China’s Xi will be more reserved in his authoritarianism towards international organizations. I think this one will eventually make organizations like TeamLiquid(Pro) choose between major tournament access—and recruitment of Chinese players—and their values.
I wish Victor and others would publicly state what they considered in terms of statements. I wonder if other gaming teams would tell the gaming world that they will not accept forfeiture of tournament money and massive suspensions of it were their player and a protest against a major international crackdown (to differentiate from some other political protest, which might be justifiably kept away from the gaming industry). Or maybe mentally place yourself in a modern eSports team in a world with a Rwandan genocide going on, and ask yourself if the players would do right to signal a protest at the end of a tournament win. (I apologize if this example is too extreme. I believe this example to be beyond the current Uyghur forced re-education camps). Keep politics out of eSports, or let severe events have a different rubric? What would TeamLiquid do if it was a tweet from one of their Dota 2 players, and every dollar of Chinese sponsorship revenue, every Chinese player of a (future) team, and every Chinese tournament was on the line with the response? (To again draw upon the NBA parallel that is still in the back of my mind).
The primary thing driving my thinking on this matter is the question, “How much do I hold Blizzard at fault for their actions, when I reserve warmer feelings for organizations that I have no reason to believe would behave differently if they were on the hot seat?” The secondary question is, “What do I envision eSports looking like in 20 years if China gets away with bossing around every successful game, team, and individual on this planet? They hold immense power, so will the world will just divide into two spheres—one including Chinese fan involvement, and one divorced in every way from anything the CPC could use against the entity?” This manner of thinking transitions my focus from TL’s response in this individual matter, to what possible future responses might be required (say, if it was TL’s team and total loss of tournament prize money in a future event)
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Northern Ireland20676 Posts
On October 17 2019 14:43 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2019 16:40 Manifesto7 wrote:On October 13 2019 01:30 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:TeamLiquid in the past has supported LGBT and has taken other political stances in the past. It has remained oddly silent on the on going fiasco that is Activision Blizzard. Not even a “What they did was in poor taste but we’re going to keep playing in their tournaments.” as some others have done. Having taken stances in the past, I feel it does NOT give you a free pass to sit this out. Except maybe you’re being forced to since you’re sponsored, in part, by China as well via Huya.com which is owned by YY Inc which is ran by China’s propaganda department. Regardless if the site as a whole is being pressured to stay quiet. I ASK for an answer. + Show Spoiler +I’ve been coming to this site for a long time and I consider it my main hangout but depending on how TL moves forward on this will determine my reaction. I’m hoping to hear something by next week or I’ll have to take a stance against TL and any other pro-team taking Chinese money as well. Aggressive post, with many assumptions. To me it sounds like you want to hear a specific message from TL, and not what TL actually thinks. This, combined with your comments about taking it to social media make me think that your inquiry about our opinion is disingenuous. Nobody here is going to be held hostage by your feelings about this. I also don't think that because TL has a stance about one issue (recognizing LGBT rights) that it has to make a statement about all other issues. Should we comment about the current mess in Syria? What about climate change? Of course, this issue feels much closer to TL as it is about the company whose game we play. Should we put out an editorial? Should we cover it like news? I am not in those conversations. That being said, TL is a fan site. As others have said, perhaps the TL pro team / business will make a statement, but I don't think there is any obligation for people working on a fan site to give anything more than their own personal opinions. I also don't think those opinions should carry any more weight than any other poster on the site unless it directly affects the operation of the site. I like the nuance here, even in disagreement. TL does not have a responsibility to weigh in on every divisive political issue. I disagree with activists that push for that style of corporate social responsibility. This issue involved gamers, and a games company, that is intimately connected to TeamLiquid. It raises questions about how TL would react if it was one of its players, or if it’s stance on LGBT social issues was only made in the absence of monetary and operational consequences (and I’m in no way suggesting that it’s clear it was). It raises questions about the society of eSports teams and whether they would show solidarity if China bans one from tournaments hosted in their country (a semi-parallel to when the NBA’s Daryl Morey prompted China to suddenly cease broadcasting). In one sense, TeamLiquid transitioned from being just a fan site, to being a broad organization with a fan site and multiple international esports teams, sponsorships. In another sense, its fan site continued operation as mostly the same discussion forum that it was initially, so it’s kinda the same. The individual mod posts of their opinion on this side of things are totally appropriate. The TL.net side of operations is not at fault, as much as some have leveled their commentary on that side. I’m trying to explain a topic without a lot of form to it. Blizzard operates in a craven manner. What means of group action can make them think twice when the next Chinese craziness of a Hong Kong level occurs? One would be companies showing open resilience at unreasonable demands. China goes batshit crazy about a tweet, the NBA acts dismissively of their response and protects their owner. Blizzard gets a notice from China about a player’s protest, Blizzard says the most they’ll do is a small fine or suspension. Blizzard caves to an unreasonable Chinese demand, every eSports team uses back channels and then public channels to express their displeasure. I turn now to this issue’s interactions with gamers. Gamers should desire their gaming teams to not behave like profit-seeking international corporations in the area of international controversy. The teams are fan-facing. Everyone cheers for their team because they feel a personal connection or attachment to their success and fun development and pursuit of skill & teamwork. Next, many expect the teams to be defenders of their players’ interests in the areas of visa issues, unfair tournament rules, false prize money, and others. They do not have a ton of power to effect change in this area. The small amount they do have is influence on public opinion and raising awareness of problems within the community. I see bad ends to actions like (presumably) China’s threats to Blizzard and China’s threats and actions against the NBA. If they can use access to their markets for corporate game companies, they can do the same to eSports teams. A small group of politically powerful Chinese politicians are willing to ban and censor, and hit any vulnerable financial ties of companies with their country for the smallest level of criticism. I think this is a pretty well-understood state of affairs. I have no idea if the leader after China’s Xi will be more reserved in his authoritarianism towards international organizations. I think this one will eventually make organizations like TeamLiquid(Pro) choose between major tournament access—and recruitment of Chinese players—and their values. I wish Victor and others would publicly state what they considered in terms of statements. I wonder if other gaming teams would tell the gaming world that they will not accept forfeiture of tournament money and massive suspensions of it were their player and a protest against a major international crackdown (to differentiate from some other political protest, which might be justifiably kept away from the gaming industry). Or maybe mentally place yourself in a modern eSports team in a world with a Rwandan genocide going on, and ask yourself if the players would do right to signal a protest at the end of a tournament win. (I apologize if this example is too extreme. I believe this example to be beyond the current Uyghur forced re-education camps). Keep politics out of eSports, or let severe events have a different rubric? What would TeamLiquid do if it was a tweet from one of their Dota 2 players, and every dollar of Chinese sponsorship revenue, every Chinese player of a (future) team, and every Chinese tournament was on the line with the response? (To again draw upon the NBA parallel that is still in the back of my mind). The primary thing driving my thinking on this matter is the question, “How much do I hold Blizzard at fault for their actions, when I reserve warmer feelings for organizations that I have no reason to believe would behave differently if they were on the hot seat?” The secondary question is, “What do I envision eSports looking like in 20 years if China gets away with bossing around every successful game, team, and individual on this planet? They hold immense power, so will the world will just divide into two spheres—one including Chinese fan involvement, and one divorced in every way from anything the CPC could use against the entity?” This manner of thinking transitions my focus from TL’s response in this individual matter, to what possible future responses might be required (say, if it was TL’s team and total loss of tournament prize money in a future event) 100% this, both for this specific example but also for things down the line.
Let us say hypothetically things escalate in the future, perhaps a TL player gets refused entry into China for a tournament based on comments made in a purely private capacity, or something in that domain, what then?
I do not envisage this being close to the last incident of its kind, especially given that pro players stream a lot of content and interact candidly with their fans in a way most top level professional sportsmen do not.
I don’t follow non-Starcraft games and Starcraft doesn’t really have visible teams like it used to, so I’m unsure if any other organisations have commented on this either, I do feel TL is very well placed because of its long history and because it is a community/pro team hybrid in a way that few others are.
I dare say that if pressure was brought to bear in a way that affected TL’s financials, it would be well set with both the long-standing goodwill plus the older demographic/higher earners vs other organisations to plug those gaps via the community itself directly.
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On October 17 2019 03:47 Paljas wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2019 22:08 Glacierz wrote:On October 16 2019 05:50 Paljas wrote:hid behind the covers of the Blizzard platform to make a political statement he knows is controversial to the Chinese public.
braindead take, he did the direct opposite of "hiding". He used the big stage he had to make his statement as impactful as possible. He chose this platform specifically to reach the Chinese audience, and the only impact he made was further dividing the people on both sides. Repeating some slogan without understanding what it means is what drives mob mentality, not real change. How do you know that he doesnt understand what he said? How do you know that the didnt just chose the platform because it was the biggest he had? And since when is "he divides people" an argument for not speaking up about an such fundamental issues? I am a skeptic and I always question the motives of those who participate in this kind of movement. Regarding your "fundamental issues", if you are talking about the extradition bill that triggered the protests, it has already been pulled. The fundamental motivation of the bill was to allow criminals who committed crimes abroad to be prosecuted/extradited from HK, so the city does not become a safe haven for fugitives. Many would argue the intentions of the bill was good. For those who believed this bill was proposed under the Chinese government's directive to reign in people with strong dissent towards the CCP, you are too naive. If the CCP is out there to get you, they simply make you disappear, they don't need to pass some law to achieve this, even in HK.
The initial opposition actually came from a wealthy class of people who might be taking advantage of the system for things such as tax evasion and other loopholes. They peddled fear into the masses and linked this bill to the concept of "freedom". I bet most people who jumped into this did not even bother to read the bill in full. They chose to believe in some interpretation of it and started the mass protest.
Did you know many people who skip work for the protests were getting paid? I know someone who was paid 6000 HKD to lead/participate 2 days of protests. Maybe you'd like to learn who's funding the operation and what their motives are. I bet it is not for the "Freedom" you claim.
When people demand for freedom, the meaning of it is up for interpretation and this is where the issue becomes divisive. Freedom in the HK context does not mean the same thing as it does in the west. To people in the mainland, it is sometimes interpreted as secession, which is equivalent to an insult to the nation triggering painful memories of colonial oppression by the west. To many in HK it means universal suffrage, but I don't think that's a definition all the protesters agree upon.
The causes of the unrest isn't just the lack of political freedom, there are much deeper socioeconomic issues arising from the capitalism structure where the wealthy oligarchy enrich themselves by exploiting the working class. I'm not sure if you are aware of the living conditions for the working class in HK. Maybe you'd want to read up on this before pinning this movement on some ideological freedom alone.
People go to the streets when their lives are miserable and the prospects of improvement are non-existent. Riots happen when people have nothing to lose, and yet are naive enough to think the problem can be solved through mass protests and violence. If history has taught us anything, it's that protests almost never works. Even in the unlikely scenario that it does, I frankly don't believe universal suffrage will do anything to solve the deep rooted issues they have. We have free elections in the US and yet we still have similar problems, but that's besides the point.
No one has the full picture of what is happening, not even the people living locally. All we have are two sides of the story that are at odds with one another (police beating/arresting protesters, protesters committing arson/violence against others, etc). The story is really how you spin it. It is easy to take the moral high ground and wave the banner of freedom to justify actions such as vandalism and violence. People who take public platforms to fuel this anger often don't care about having an honest dialogue to resolve the deep-rooted problems in society, or hear other views that are different from theirs. They just want whoever is in charge removed and replaced with who they think can solve their own problems.
I will admit that I am wrong if this person has thought through all of the above and arrived at the conclusion that his form of protest will help the people in HK instead of dividing the nation even further and inciting more violence and unrest.
This will be an unpopular opinion, but I have always wondered: does freedom of speech mean hate speech should be allowed on a public platform? Does freedom of press mean the media is free to cover news in whatever angle they want? Do free elections mean we should follow the mob mentality of the majority even when they are wrong? Does everyone know what they are asking for when they ask for freedom? Not everything is black and white in this world, and yet people try to force each other to take sides before studying the issues fully.
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Norway28254 Posts
On October 16 2019 22:35 Dracolich70 wrote:Well, if your moral compass is pocketed when choosing a sponsor, you still pay for the consequences, as you essentially advocate for morals you don't condone.for mammon. Arguing monetary gain, doesn't get anyone off the hook. Fortunately, i dare say. As they say, you vote with your wallet.
I don't really think any gaming chair sponsors are all that immoral, at least not to my knowledge. And I don't think saying 'I really enjoy my chair from company x', even if you actually know that you like the chairs from company z more, is morally outrageous either. Sponsorships vary, but to some degree, they are essentially company x pays team x to state that the equipment from sponsorship x is quality + using their equipment. Especially in team sports I don't think you can claim that a player who acts in accordance with sponsorship deals is acting in a particularly immoral manner. (Although I mean, to be fair, I would have a very hard time being part of a company sponsored by say, a weapons manufacturer selling weapons to saudi arabia or turkey. But to my knowledge this isn't really the case for any gaming teams. (And were it the case, I'd expect it to be so convoluted that it's hard to really understand the connections without doing a lot of digging. )
I mean you can make the case that mostly any profession is immoral in some capacity (as a teacher I engage in indoctrination, and even if I want to be as unbiased as possible I cannot help ), maybe some mouse producers give their employees a higher share of company surplus than other mouse producers, maybe there's ethical RAM out there that I haven't heard of. It's very difficult to keep track of everything.
Consumers and fans stating their outrage is part of the equation though, and can be a positive contributor, so I have no issues with that. But I do think these types of social mobilizations would normally be better off targeting an organization or larger company than targeting say, individual esports-players.
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On October 15 2019 23:29 Glacierz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2019 03:28 Liquid`Drone wrote: And then I've registered that big protests have been happening, initially over some extradition law pertaining whether people from Hong Kong could be extradited to China, but where the protesters started demanding more, in form of 'western democracy' and freedom of speech, etc, where tensions have been increasing.
People in HK already enjoy freedom of speech, otherwise there would not be a protest to begin with. What they wanted ultimately is free democratic elections to ensure the governing body does not become a puppet of China. The younger generation constitutes the majority of the protesters. They are afraid of what will happen in 2047 when the 50 year agreement ends. This sentiment has been building up for quite some time, the extradition law is just a fuse that lit the whole thing up. Many people in the mainland originally sympathized with this movement. They later got turned away as news coverage revealed a minority of protesters starting to demand independence/secession, even though the official list of demands contain no such things. I just came back from a visit to HK, the slogans/graffiti around the city definitely contain phrases suggesting taking HK back to the colonial times under western rule, so at least this part is true. So when people in the west makes a public statement such as "Free HK", people in the mainland would interpret it as calling for HK's secession from China. This is a big no-no in a very nationalistic country. You said it well, not many people would be willing to admit not knowing enough to make a stance. The biased media coverage fueled the escalation of the matter, driving people apart and forcing everyone to take sides on this with an incomplete picture of the whole situation. I also agree with you that China has exercised much restraints in dealing with the HK situation compared to other minority groups such as Tibet. People are jumping on this issue because it is being made a big deal by the news channels. Sometimes, freedom of the press can do more harm than good if it does not provide unbiased, independent coverage. It would be wise for foreign corporations to stay out of matters concerning the sovereignty of the state. When people who live locally don't even have the complete picture of what's going on, how do you expect these entities to take an official stance?
I think this is very accurate.
From my point of view -- I've lived in mainland China and speak Chinese -- I've seen enough of the other side of this conflict (and I don't mean from reading state-controlled media but from talking to people in mainland China) that the simplistic, one-sided and holier-than-thou approach a lot of Westerners take on this issue just gives me a headache.
I'm not in any doubt that Blizzard did what they did for purely financial reasons. They of course have every right to control their own platforms as they see fit (and that has nothing to do with freedom of speech) but I agree with the person in this thread who pointed out that if someone made a controversial statement about Ireland, it probably wouldn't have been dealt with the same way. Why? Money.
If anyone wants to put up a fight, that's what they'll be fighting against. I guess there would be some merit to making Blizzard feel that if they punish people for utterances that aren't clearly immoral (such as holocaust denial or support for terrorism), there's going to be a backlash. But then we will also need to all nod and be accepting when people start using Blizzard's platform to say "Free Palestine!" or "The West Bank belongs to Israel!" or "Long live the Islamic Republic of Iran", or "Give Ireland back to the Irish".
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If anyone is interested in learning more about the divisiveness of the HK protests, I recommend this article that just came out. The same group of people chanting for freedom and democracy is also responsible for ostracizing non-HK people. This would be blatant racism if they didn't belong to the same race.
When people in the west voice support for their movement, I wonder how many actually think about this?
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Northern Ireland20676 Posts
I don’t think anyone really cares or wants Blizzard to be ‘Free Hong Kong’ at all. Perhaps some do
Really the issue at least for me is the mere discussion of it is grounds for censure,
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On October 18 2019 09:50 Wombat_NI wrote: I don’t think anyone really cares or wants Blizzard to be ‘Free Hong Kong’ at all. Perhaps some do
Really the issue at least for me is the mere discussion of it is grounds for censure,
That is the core of the issue indeed. A lot of people try to argue in bad faith that it's otherwise.
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On October 18 2019 05:34 Glacierz wrote:If anyone is interested in learning more about the divisiveness of the HK protests, I recommend this article that just came out. The same group of people chanting for freedom and democracy is also responsible for ostracizing non-HK people. This would be blatant racism if they didn't belong to the same race. When people in the west voice support for their movement, I wonder how many actually think about this?
The sentence "This would be racism if they didn't belong to the same race" should make any reasonable person pause. Maybe there's something else going on between these two groups of people that isn't about race? Their beliefs perhaps?
This isn't unexpected. You don't want to be part of your opposition in a country or city under siege. I wouldn't want to be living in Stockholm either if Norway and Sweden was at war. I might not agree with my government, but it would be a bad idea nevertheless. Claiming that HK shouldn't be free because some mainlander Chinese are caught up in the debacle is amazingly distasteful.
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On October 18 2019 16:17 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2019 05:34 Glacierz wrote:If anyone is interested in learning more about the divisiveness of the HK protests, I recommend this article that just came out. The same group of people chanting for freedom and democracy is also responsible for ostracizing non-HK people. This would be blatant racism if they didn't belong to the same race. When people in the west voice support for their movement, I wonder how many actually think about this? The sentence "This would be racism if they didn't belong to the same race" should make any reasonable person pause. Maybe there's something else going on between these two groups of people that isn't about race? Their beliefs perhaps? This isn't unexpected. You don't want to be part of your opposition in a country or city under siege. I wouldn't want to be living in Stockholm either if Norway and Sweden was at war. I might not agree with my government, but it would be a bad idea nevertheless. Claiming that HK shouldn't be free because some mainlander Chinese are caught up in the debacle is amazingly distasteful. It's about one group of people not able to tolerate another's beliefs. This was an example of someone who wasn't even questioning whether HK should be free, but getting ostracized for simply refusing to disseminate a post that lacks evidence. The fact that she's from the mainland was a direct cause.
Based on what you are saying, I should just quit my job, pack up my life and move whenever a movement like this happens because a bunch of people wanted something and I am not part of them? What happens to my own rights and freedom? Are my values to be trampled on because I am not with the majority? In the case where the majority is actually demanding democracy and freedom, isn't the whole movement hypocritical? What they are really demanding is their version of democracy where they decide on what's right/wrong.
One can't help but question what is the true cause for a peaceful protests to evolve into this level of hate/resentment. Are people inherently hateful or were they fed some propaganda based on biased coverage of these events? Is this the progress we are looking for when we throw our support behind their cause?
It's easy to champion for freedom, but it's important to realize people who support the cause do not share the same agenda. If sports/esports organizations were to allow these kinds of speeches freely, should they also be responsible for fact checking what they say and the consequences of their actions? My guess is they will not. Conflicts and marginalization of certain groups of players, teams, and the audience is inevitable. Is it really in anyone's interest to offer a platform for these debates when a majority of the people can be mislead because they are not informed of the full situation?
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On October 18 2019 16:08 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2019 09:50 Wombat_NI wrote: I don’t think anyone really cares or wants Blizzard to be ‘Free Hong Kong’ at all. Perhaps some do
Really the issue at least for me is the mere discussion of it is grounds for censure, That is the core of the issue indeed. A lot of people try to argue in bad faith that it's otherwise. Waving a slogan is not a discussion. Allowing for this sets a dangerous precedent where you will ultimately have to decide what kind of slogans/signs are allowed and what should be banned. The interpretations of the slogans are often subjective, and forcing a non-political organization to decide on these matters is nonsensical.
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