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TeamLiquid in the past has supported LGBT and has taken other political stances in the past.
It has remained oddly silent on the on going fiasco that is Activision Blizzard. Not even a “What they did was in poor taste but we’re going to keep playing in their tournaments.” as some others have done.
Having taken stances in the past, I feel it does NOT give you a free pass to sit this out.
Except maybe you’re being forced to since you’re sponsored, in part, by China as well via Huya.com which is owned by YY Inc which is ran by China’s propaganda department. Regardless if the site as a whole is being pressured to stay quiet. I ASK for an answer.
+ Show Spoiler +
I’ve been coming to this site for a long time and I consider it my main hangout but depending on how TL moves forward on this will determine my reaction.
I’m hoping to hear something by next week or I’ll have to take a stance against TL and any other pro-team taking Chinese money as well.
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Bearded Elder14845 Posts
We TL now, not TeamLiquid - wrong website 
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Baa?14034 Posts
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My stance for Blizzard hasn't change since 2011 or something. Than again, I am not a guy from a staff, so... ;]
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Northern Ireland11734 Posts
I’ve made my desire known in the other thread for some response on this, but I shall reiterate it here nonetheless.
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I don't represent TL in any way and this isn't attempt at trying to, but I can give you my opinion: There's a saying of great wisdom that goes
don't shit where you eat
which the caster has done, so Blizzard had to do it, and TL doesn't have to do it.
The guy could've just been streaming a talkshow where he cries that out, but he did it on BlizzTV.
It's also weird to open a thread where you don't incite discussion and instead try to limit it to TL guys. I feel left out 
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United States8305 Posts
We're a community site allowed to operate under the TL umbrella, but not directly involved with TL. This is a voluntary community with voluntary individuals who staff it, so each person can make a statement for themselves, but not for the whole of TL.
That being said, I personally support HK, and denounce Blizzard.
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I remember users getting banned for criticizing Blizzard's SC2 before
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Norway25404 Posts
I can't speak on behalf of the website, but I do feel I am probably one of the more politically conscious members of the staff, and I will flesh out my thoughts in some detail.
Firstly, I don't think you can make an equation behind this and being for or against LGBT rights. This, to my understanding, is vastly more complex of an issue than being for or against LGBT rights is. For that, I honestly don't really see any valid counter-arguments. Being for or against LGBT, as a non-religious person, is a question of being a shitty guy to other people or not. (I understand that for religious people it can be more conflicted. ) For this? I don't know. I haven't spent the 30+ hours required to educate myself on the complexities of the issue required for me to confidently speak about it in an educational or debating manner. I know that Hong Kong was under some form of English control until 1997. I then think it was supposed to undergo some transitional period before being overturned in some degree to Chinese control. And then I've registered that big protests have been happening, initially over some extradition law pertaining whether people from Hong Kong could be extradited to China, but where the protesters started demanding more, in form of 'western democracy' and freedom of speech, etc, where tensions have been increasing.
Now, to be absolutely clear: My understanding is that their requests are requests that I myself support. However, I do not want to get involved in a big argument regarding an issue where my knowledge is sorely lacking. For myself to get behind, or insist that we issue, some type of coherent, consistent boycott-blizzard-over-their-treatment-of-a-heartstone-pro-and-a-couple-casters- message, it would require me to be far more confident in my knowledge of the issue than I am. Now, I am a sociology teacher. My wife is doing a phd on political communication, my brother has been a former member of parliament + political adviser for one of the ministers. I come from a background where politics matters a lot. If I don't feel confident enough in this subject matter, I don't think it's reasonable to expect other staff members of a gaming-centered website to do so either.
Then there is the further issue, what political topics are so important that they transcend computer games? For as bad as my impression of China's treatment of Hong Kong is, I don't see it as the world's biggest current political issue. I don't know if it's any worse than China's treatment of Taiwan. (Where, btw, our website still lets people select 'Taiwan' as their country of residence - despite the Vatican State being the only western country that recognizes it as independent.) Hell, my understanding is that China's treatment of Tibet, or Uyghur muslims is a far bigger issue than their treatment of Hong Kong.
Again, not that I am not sympathetic to the cause. But I'm not at all convinced that this particular cause, despite having an obvious history with the company that used to be Blizzard, is one that warrants being singled out as one issue that should unite us. And I'm not arguing that 'it's only possible to speak out against the most crucial political topic', because clearly you can care about multiple issues at the same time.
For example, I think what is currently happening in Turkey and their attack on the Kurds (attempted genocide? I dunno) is a much bigger issue, and one that hits me more personally. I think the threat to western democracy is more present in certain prominent western countries, than it is in China. I think climate change is an issue that dwarfs all other political issues - combined.
And finally, I also feel this issue is much less relevant for our website than LGBT rights is, even if blizzard specifically is involved here. Gaming communities used to be notoriously homophobic. I think here, we have been far better than most, and earlier than most too. (Even if we, truth be told, did have discussions about whether we should moderate against 'gay' used as a pejorative that ended with us deciding 'no' because it was perceived as too big of a headache).
Gaming communities do however not have a history of quiet acquiescence regarding countries overstepping the sovereignty of other countries or regions. While I do, based on my understanding, have a positive, pro-'free hong kong' mindset, and while I expect that many other staff members feel the same way, I also don't want to front an issue where I just.. don't know enough. And I don't think you can really expect us to do.
(I have to go now, sry if it's a bit messy, felt like posting before going but a bit rushed at the end.)
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Italy11558 Posts
As teamliquid.net (which again, is not the same as Teamliquid esports organisation) we do not have an official stance yet (and may come up with one). However, our staff members are entirely free to post their own personal opinion which may or may not disagree with Blizzard.
My personal opinion is "fuck Blizzard and their bullshit".
edit: clarified TL.net's relationship with Teamliquid.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?32839 Posts
This question depends on whether you’re asking the TL staff that’s involved with this website and the community, or if you’re asking TL Pro.
Just so you know, this site and its staff are not part of the actual Team Liquid organization. Our answers and our views would in no way reflect TL’s actual stance.
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Bisutopia17135 Posts
We are a majorly volunteer groups of people supporting this website out of twenty years of love. We are here to support Starcraft players of all types (which maybe why you see LGBT support in the banner). But first and for most this is about us sharing passions together. Please don't take what Blizzard did out on us. We already make tons of sacrifices with our time for the purpose of this website. If you really feel you should take arms against corporate Teamliquid then hit them up on Twitter or at their website, but not here.
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Northern Ireland11734 Posts
As far as I know none of us do BisuDagger (and all of you guys), perhaps others will prove us wrong.
I personally love the organisation, what it does, the autonomy and varied viewpoints of its writers, feels more like a collective of different people under a shared passion than some organisation with a ‘vision’ of how things must be. The proud tradition of amateurism (in the best sense of the word), of people doing things and giving up their time for the love of some activity, whatever it may be (within reason).
Let me make it clear, and I trust others will repeat my sentiment that there is no criticism on the writers here, or expectation on them to hold or support a specific position.
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On October 13 2019 03:28 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I can't speak on behalf of the website, but I do feel I am probably one of the more politically conscious members of the staff, and I will flesh out my thoughts in some detail.
Firstly, I don't think you can make an equation behind this and being for or against LGBT rights. This, to my understanding, is vastly more complex of an issue than being for or against LGBT rights is. For that, I honestly don't really see any valid counter-arguments. Being for or against LGBT, as a non-religious person, is a question of being a shitty guy to other people or not. (I understand that for religious people it can be more conflicted. ) For this? I don't know. I haven't spent the 30+ hours required to educate myself on the complexities of the issue required for me to confidently speak about it in an educational or debating manner. I know that Hong Kong was under some form of English control until 1997. I then think it was supposed to undergo some transitional period before being overturned in some degree to Chinese control. And then I've registered that big protests have been happening, initially over some extradition law pertaining whether people from Hong Kong could be extradited to China, but where the protesters started demanding more, in form of 'western democracy' and freedom of speech, etc, where tensions have been increasing.
Now, to be absolutely clear: My understanding is that their requests are requests that I myself support. However, I do not want to get involved in a big argument regarding an issue where my knowledge is sorely lacking. For myself to get behind, or insist that we issue, some type of coherent, consistent boycott-blizzard-over-their-treatment-of-a-heartstone-pro-and-a-couple-casters- message, it would require me to be far more confident in my knowledge of the issue than I am. Now, I am a sociology teacher. My wife is doing a phd on political communication, my brother has been a former member of parliament + political adviser for one of the ministers. I come from a background where politics matters a lot. If I don't feel confident enough in this subject matter, I don't think it's reasonable to expect other staff members of a gaming-centered website to do so either.
Then there is the further issue, what political topics are so important that they transcend computer games? For as bad as my impression of China's treatment of Hong Kong is, I don't see it as the world's biggest current political issue. I don't know if it's any worse than China's treatment of Taiwan. (Where, btw, our website still lets people select 'Taiwan' as their country of residence - despite the Vatican State being the only western country that recognizes it as independent.) Hell, my understanding is that China's treatment of Tibet, or Uyghur muslims is a far bigger issue than their treatment of Hong Kong.
Again, not that I am not sympathetic to the cause. But I'm not at all convinced that this particular cause, despite having an obvious history with the company that used to be Blizzard, is one that warrants being singled out as one issue that should unite us. And I'm not arguing that 'it's only possible to speak out against the most crucial political topic', because clearly you can care about multiple issues at the same time.
For example, I think what is currently happening in Turkey and their attack on the Kurds (attempted genocide? I dunno) is a much bigger issue, and one that hits me more personally. I think the threat to western democracy is more present in certain prominent western countries, than it is in China. I think climate change is an issue that dwarfs all other political issues - combined.
And finally, I also feel this issue is much less relevant for our website than LGBT rights is, even if blizzard specifically is involved here. Gaming communities used to be notoriously homophobic. I think here, we have been far better than most, and earlier than most too. (Even if we, truth be told, did have discussions about whether we should moderate against 'gay' used as a pejorative that ended with us deciding 'no' because it was perceived as too big of a headache).
Gaming communities do however not have a history of quiet acquiescence regarding countries overstepping the sovereignty of other countries or regions. While I do, based on my understanding, have a positive, pro-'free hong kong' mindset, and while I expect that many other staff members feel the same way, I also don't want to front an issue where I just.. don't know enough. And I don't think you can really expect us to do.
(I have to go now, sry if it's a bit messy, felt like posting before going but a bit rushed at the end.)
Can't you make the equation between this and gay rights though? Democracy and free speech are basic human rights in my view. I don't see why gay rights are any different. In my opinion the division is entirely arbitrary.
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Norway25404 Posts
I mean I agree with criticism towards Blizzard over what they did. I don't think it's acceptable that companies bend to autocratic regimes who demand that they stifle free speech to get access to their markets. I'm not gonna quit playing bw, but it certainly makes me far less likely to spend money on future blizzard titles.
But that's different from expecting everyone on staff to have or agree with a phrased statement regarding 'free Hong Hong'. I honestly haven't read what the demands from protesters are, to what degree they are a unified movement, to what degree they represent the majority of the population, what China is refusing to grant them, etc. I expect that if I read up more about it, it would make me favor the protesters even more, but still, I don't want to make strong arguments for a situation where I am this ignorant.. LGBT rights are a much 'simpler', and something I do expect all staff members to support.
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Northern Ireland11734 Posts
On October 13 2019 06:35 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I mean I agree with criticism towards Blizzard over what they did. I don't think it's acceptable that companies bend to autocratic regimes who demand that they stifle free speech to get access to their markets. I'm not gonna quit playing bw, but it certainly makes me far less likely to spend money on future blizzard titles.
But that's different from expecting everyone on staff to have or agree with a phrased statement regarding 'free Hong Hong'. I honestly haven't read what the demands from protesters are, to what degree they are a unified movement, to what degree they represent the majority of the population, what China is refusing to grant them, etc. I expect that if I read up more about it, it would make me favor the protesters even more, but still, I don't want to make strong arguments for a situation where I am this ignorant.. LGBT rights are a much 'simpler', and something I do expect all staff members to support.
Personally, I don’t think the particulars matter all so much.
I’m personally OK with some kind of censure over the protest, broadcasts can’t become a soapbox with everyone with an issue.
I speak only for me, but potentially more, our concern is the censure is specifically influenced by China and its whims, rather than an overarching policy of keeping politics out of such broadcasts. That is specifically my issue, and I assume the issue of others.
If I somehow got good at Hearthstone and made a ‘give Ireland back to the Irish’ speech (despite it being at odds with my own RL views) I don’t see Blizzard throwing me a year ban and a forfeiture of prize money, and banning 2 casters for giving me the platform.
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wtf this is a stupid ass demand...just because they have support a previous political issue doesnt mean they have to respond to every single one of them
what dressing them up as captain america because of their marvel partnership? wtf does that have to do with anything. You cant actually be serious in saying some LoL team wearing an american super hero t-shirt means they support america? What kind of leap in logic is this
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On October 13 2019 11:17 Shock710 wrote:wtf this is a stupid ass demand...just because they have support a previous political issue doesnt mean they have to respond to every single one of them what dressing them up as captain america because of their marvel partnership? wtf does that have to do with anything. You cant actually be serious in saying some LoL team wearing an american super hero t-shirt means they support america? What kind of leap in logic is this
It just shows some things are more important than others.
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On October 13 2019 03:28 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I can't speak on behalf of the website, but I do feel I am probably one of the more politically conscious members of the staff, and I will flesh out my thoughts in some detail.
Firstly, I don't think you can make an equation behind this and being for or against LGBT rights. This, to my understanding, is vastly more complex of an issue than being for or against LGBT rights is. For that, I honestly don't really see any valid counter-arguments. Being for or against LGBT, as a non-religious person, is a question of being a shitty guy to other people or not. (I understand that for religious people it can be more conflicted. ) For this? I don't know. I haven't spent the 30+ hours required to educate myself on the complexities of the issue required for me to confidently speak about it in an educational or debating manner. I know that Hong Kong was under some form of English control until 1997. I then think it was supposed to undergo some transitional period before being overturned in some degree to Chinese control. And then I've registered that big protests have been happening, initially over some extradition law pertaining whether people from Hong Kong could be extradited to China, but where the protesters started demanding more, in form of 'western democracy' and freedom of speech, etc, where tensions have been increasing.
Now, to be absolutely clear: My understanding is that their requests are requests that I myself support. However, I do not want to get involved in a big argument regarding an issue where my knowledge is sorely lacking. For myself to get behind, or insist that we issue, some type of coherent, consistent boycott-blizzard-over-their-treatment-of-a-heartstone-pro-and-a-couple-casters- message, it would require me to be far more confident in my knowledge of the issue than I am. Now, I am a sociology teacher. My wife is doing a phd on political communication, my brother has been a former member of parliament + political adviser for one of the ministers. I come from a background where politics matters a lot. If I don't feel confident enough in this subject matter, I don't think it's reasonable to expect other staff members of a gaming-centered website to do so either.
Then there is the further issue, what political topics are so important that they transcend computer games? For as bad as my impression of China's treatment of Hong Kong is, I don't see it as the world's biggest current political issue. I don't know if it's any worse than China's treatment of Taiwan. (Where, btw, our website still lets people select 'Taiwan' as their country of residence - despite the Vatican State being the only western country that recognizes it as independent.) Hell, my understanding is that China's treatment of Tibet, or Uyghur muslims is a far bigger issue than their treatment of Hong Kong.
Again, not that I am not sympathetic to the cause. But I'm not at all convinced that this particular cause, despite having an obvious history with the company that used to be Blizzard, is one that warrants being singled out as one issue that should unite us. And I'm not arguing that 'it's only possible to speak out against the most crucial political topic', because clearly you can care about multiple issues at the same time.
For example, I think what is currently happening in Turkey and their attack on the Kurds (attempted genocide? I dunno) is a much bigger issue, and one that hits me more personally. I think the threat to western democracy is more present in certain prominent western countries, than it is in China. I think climate change is an issue that dwarfs all other political issues - combined.
And finally, I also feel this issue is much less relevant for our website than LGBT rights is, even if blizzard specifically is involved here. Gaming communities used to be notoriously homophobic. I think here, we have been far better than most, and earlier than most too. (Even if we, truth be told, did have discussions about whether we should moderate against 'gay' used as a pejorative that ended with us deciding 'no' because it was perceived as too big of a headache).
Gaming communities do however not have a history of quiet acquiescence regarding countries overstepping the sovereignty of other countries or regions. While I do, based on my understanding, have a positive, pro-'free hong kong' mindset, and while I expect that many other staff members feel the same way, I also don't want to front an issue where I just.. don't know enough. And I don't think you can really expect us to do.
(I have to go now, sry if it's a bit messy, felt like posting before going but a bit rushed at the end.)
Hey Eri thanks for posting, to me you're more intertwined with Team liquid than most people, as, well, you were with the TL team right from the beginning.
I don't think this is a super necessary topic, being forced to make a stance is a bit greedy. However, I think the question here has more to do with Blizzard's actions as opposed to what China is doing in Hong Kong currently, and I do think those are actually two separate issues. The problem I see as companies are pandering to an autocratic government (and perhaps the most dictatorial in the world save north korea), is if companies and governments are being leveraged by China to censor anything that's against China's interest, then aren't we in extension also living under the same censorship?
To me there is a big difference between taking a stance yourself (such as saying "I support China"), and moderating someone so they cannot take a stance (such as banning someone for saying "I support Hong Kong"). You're right, in terms of the severity of global crises, what is happening in Hong Kong ranks low compared to even the treatment of Uyghur Muslims by China, but the actions Blizzard took seem to hit closer to home as it's a very blatant censorship of people in free speaking countries. That's threatening to us in a way we're not used to.
(Shit, sorry I didn't see your second post where you basically covered what I said already)
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