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TeamLiquid in the past has supported LGBT and has taken other political stances in the past.
It has remained oddly silent on the on going fiasco that is Activision Blizzard. Not even a “What they did was in poor taste but we’re going to keep playing in their tournaments.” as some others have done.
Having taken stances in the past, I feel it does NOT give you a free pass to sit this out.
Except maybe you’re being forced to since you’re sponsored, in part, by China as well via Huya.com which is owned by YY Inc which is ran by China’s propaganda department. Regardless if the site as a whole is being pressured to stay quiet. I ASK for an answer.
+ Show Spoiler +
I’ve been coming to this site for a long time and I consider it my main hangout but depending on how TL moves forward on this will determine my reaction.
I’m hoping to hear something by next week or I’ll have to take a stance against TL and any other pro-team taking Chinese money as well.
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Bearded Elder29875 Posts
We TL now, not TeamLiquid - wrong website
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Baa?21242 Posts
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My stance for Blizzard hasn't change since 2011 or something. Than again, I am not a guy from a staff, so... ;]
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Northern Ireland20682 Posts
I’ve made my desire known in the other thread for some response on this, but I shall reiterate it here nonetheless.
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I don't represent TL in any way and this isn't attempt at trying to, but I can give you my opinion: There's a saying of great wisdom that goes
don't shit where you eat
which the caster has done, so Blizzard had to do it, and TL doesn't have to do it. The guy could've just been streaming a talkshow where he cries that out, but he did it on BlizzTV.
It's also weird to open a thread where you don't incite discussion and instead try to limit it to TL guys. I feel left out
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United States9645 Posts
We're a community site allowed to operate under the TL umbrella, but not directly involved with TL. This is a voluntary community with voluntary individuals who staff it, so each person can make a statement for themselves, but not for the whole of TL.
That being said, I personally support HK, and denounce Blizzard.
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I remember users getting banned for criticizing Blizzard's SC2 before
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Norway28256 Posts
I can't speak on behalf of the website, but I do feel I am probably one of the more politically conscious members of the staff, and I will flesh out my thoughts in some detail.
Firstly, I don't think you can make an equation behind this and being for or against LGBT rights. This, to my understanding, is vastly more complex of an issue than being for or against LGBT rights is. For that, I honestly don't really see any valid counter-arguments. Being for or against LGBT, as a non-religious person, is a question of being a shitty guy to other people or not. (I understand that for religious people it can be more conflicted. ) For this? I don't know. I haven't spent the 30+ hours required to educate myself on the complexities of the issue required for me to confidently speak about it in an educational or debating manner. I know that Hong Kong was under some form of English control until 1997. I then think it was supposed to undergo some transitional period before being overturned in some degree to Chinese control. And then I've registered that big protests have been happening, initially over some extradition law pertaining whether people from Hong Kong could be extradited to China, but where the protesters started demanding more, in form of 'western democracy' and freedom of speech, etc, where tensions have been increasing.
Now, to be absolutely clear: My understanding is that their requests are requests that I myself support. However, I do not want to get involved in a big argument regarding an issue where my knowledge is sorely lacking. For myself to get behind, or insist that we issue, some type of coherent, consistent boycott-blizzard-over-their-treatment-of-a-heartstone-pro-and-a-couple-casters- message, it would require me to be far more confident in my knowledge of the issue than I am. Now, I am a sociology teacher. My wife is doing a phd on political communication, my brother has been a former member of parliament + political adviser for one of the ministers. I come from a background where politics matters a lot. If I don't feel confident enough in this subject matter, I don't think it's reasonable to expect other staff members of a gaming-centered website to do so either.
Then there is the further issue, what political topics are so important that they transcend computer games? For as bad as my impression of China's treatment of Hong Kong is, I don't see it as the world's biggest current political issue. I don't know if it's any worse than China's treatment of Taiwan. (Where, btw, our website still lets people select 'Taiwan' as their country of residence - despite the Vatican State being the only western country that recognizes it as independent.) Hell, my understanding is that China's treatment of Tibet, or Uyghur muslims is a far bigger issue than their treatment of Hong Kong.
Again, not that I am not sympathetic to the cause. But I'm not at all convinced that this particular cause, despite having an obvious history with the company that used to be Blizzard, is one that warrants being singled out as one issue that should unite us. And I'm not arguing that 'it's only possible to speak out against the most crucial political topic', because clearly you can care about multiple issues at the same time.
For example, I think what is currently happening in Turkey and their attack on the Kurds (attempted genocide? I dunno) is a much bigger issue, and one that hits me more personally. I think the threat to western democracy is more present in certain prominent western countries, than it is in China. I think climate change is an issue that dwarfs all other political issues - combined.
And finally, I also feel this issue is much less relevant for our website than LGBT rights is, even if blizzard specifically is involved here. Gaming communities used to be notoriously homophobic. I think here, we have been far better than most, and earlier than most too. (Even if we, truth be told, did have discussions about whether we should moderate against 'gay' used as a pejorative that ended with us deciding 'no' because it was perceived as too big of a headache). Gaming communities do however not have a history of quiet acquiescence regarding countries overstepping the sovereignty of other countries or regions. While I do, based on my understanding, have a positive, pro-'free hong kong' mindset, and while I expect that many other staff members feel the same way, I also don't want to front an issue where I just.. don't know enough. And I don't think you can really expect us to do.
(I have to go now, sry if it's a bit messy, felt like posting before going but a bit rushed at the end.)
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Italy12246 Posts
As teamliquid.net (which again, is not the same as Teamliquid esports organisation) we do not have an official stance yet (and may come up with one). However, our staff members are entirely free to post their own personal opinion which may or may not disagree with Blizzard.
My personal opinion is "fuck Blizzard and their bullshit".
edit: clarified TL.net's relationship with Teamliquid.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?36645 Posts
This question depends on whether you’re asking the TL staff that’s involved with this website and the community, or if you’re asking TL Pro.
Just so you know, this site and its staff are not part of the actual Team Liquid organization. Our answers and our views would in no way reflect TL’s actual stance.
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Bisutopia19027 Posts
We are a majorly volunteer groups of people supporting this website out of twenty years of love. We are here to support Starcraft players of all types (which maybe why you see LGBT support in the banner). But first and for most this is about us sharing passions together. Please don't take what Blizzard did out on us. We already make tons of sacrifices with our time for the purpose of this website. If you really feel you should take arms against corporate Teamliquid then hit them up on Twitter or at their website, but not here.
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Northern Ireland20682 Posts
As far as I know none of us do BisuDagger (and all of you guys), perhaps others will prove us wrong.
I personally love the organisation, what it does, the autonomy and varied viewpoints of its writers, feels more like a collective of different people under a shared passion than some organisation with a ‘vision’ of how things must be. The proud tradition of amateurism (in the best sense of the word), of people doing things and giving up their time for the love of some activity, whatever it may be (within reason).
Let me make it clear, and I trust others will repeat my sentiment that there is no criticism on the writers here, or expectation on them to hold or support a specific position.
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On October 13 2019 03:28 Liquid`Drone wrote: I can't speak on behalf of the website, but I do feel I am probably one of the more politically conscious members of the staff, and I will flesh out my thoughts in some detail.
Firstly, I don't think you can make an equation behind this and being for or against LGBT rights. This, to my understanding, is vastly more complex of an issue than being for or against LGBT rights is. For that, I honestly don't really see any valid counter-arguments. Being for or against LGBT, as a non-religious person, is a question of being a shitty guy to other people or not. (I understand that for religious people it can be more conflicted. ) For this? I don't know. I haven't spent the 30+ hours required to educate myself on the complexities of the issue required for me to confidently speak about it in an educational or debating manner. I know that Hong Kong was under some form of English control until 1997. I then think it was supposed to undergo some transitional period before being overturned in some degree to Chinese control. And then I've registered that big protests have been happening, initially over some extradition law pertaining whether people from Hong Kong could be extradited to China, but where the protesters started demanding more, in form of 'western democracy' and freedom of speech, etc, where tensions have been increasing.
Now, to be absolutely clear: My understanding is that their requests are requests that I myself support. However, I do not want to get involved in a big argument regarding an issue where my knowledge is sorely lacking. For myself to get behind, or insist that we issue, some type of coherent, consistent boycott-blizzard-over-their-treatment-of-a-heartstone-pro-and-a-couple-casters- message, it would require me to be far more confident in my knowledge of the issue than I am. Now, I am a sociology teacher. My wife is doing a phd on political communication, my brother has been a former member of parliament + political adviser for one of the ministers. I come from a background where politics matters a lot. If I don't feel confident enough in this subject matter, I don't think it's reasonable to expect other staff members of a gaming-centered website to do so either.
Then there is the further issue, what political topics are so important that they transcend computer games? For as bad as my impression of China's treatment of Hong Kong is, I don't see it as the world's biggest current political issue. I don't know if it's any worse than China's treatment of Taiwan. (Where, btw, our website still lets people select 'Taiwan' as their country of residence - despite the Vatican State being the only western country that recognizes it as independent.) Hell, my understanding is that China's treatment of Tibet, or Uyghur muslims is a far bigger issue than their treatment of Hong Kong.
Again, not that I am not sympathetic to the cause. But I'm not at all convinced that this particular cause, despite having an obvious history with the company that used to be Blizzard, is one that warrants being singled out as one issue that should unite us. And I'm not arguing that 'it's only possible to speak out against the most crucial political topic', because clearly you can care about multiple issues at the same time.
For example, I think what is currently happening in Turkey and their attack on the Kurds (attempted genocide? I dunno) is a much bigger issue, and one that hits me more personally. I think the threat to western democracy is more present in certain prominent western countries, than it is in China. I think climate change is an issue that dwarfs all other political issues - combined.
And finally, I also feel this issue is much less relevant for our website than LGBT rights is, even if blizzard specifically is involved here. Gaming communities used to be notoriously homophobic. I think here, we have been far better than most, and earlier than most too. (Even if we, truth be told, did have discussions about whether we should moderate against 'gay' used as a pejorative that ended with us deciding 'no' because it was perceived as too big of a headache). Gaming communities do however not have a history of quiet acquiescence regarding countries overstepping the sovereignty of other countries or regions. While I do, based on my understanding, have a positive, pro-'free hong kong' mindset, and while I expect that many other staff members feel the same way, I also don't want to front an issue where I just.. don't know enough. And I don't think you can really expect us to do.
(I have to go now, sry if it's a bit messy, felt like posting before going but a bit rushed at the end.) Can't you make the equation between this and gay rights though? Democracy and free speech are basic human rights in my view. I don't see why gay rights are any different. In my opinion the division is entirely arbitrary.
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Norway28256 Posts
I mean I agree with criticism towards Blizzard over what they did. I don't think it's acceptable that companies bend to autocratic regimes who demand that they stifle free speech to get access to their markets. I'm not gonna quit playing bw, but it certainly makes me far less likely to spend money on future blizzard titles.
But that's different from expecting everyone on staff to have or agree with a phrased statement regarding 'free Hong Hong'. I honestly haven't read what the demands from protesters are, to what degree they are a unified movement, to what degree they represent the majority of the population, what China is refusing to grant them, etc. I expect that if I read up more about it, it would make me favor the protesters even more, but still, I don't want to make strong arguments for a situation where I am this ignorant.. LGBT rights are a much 'simpler', and something I do expect all staff members to support.
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Northern Ireland20682 Posts
On October 13 2019 06:35 Liquid`Drone wrote: I mean I agree with criticism towards Blizzard over what they did. I don't think it's acceptable that companies bend to autocratic regimes who demand that they stifle free speech to get access to their markets. I'm not gonna quit playing bw, but it certainly makes me far less likely to spend money on future blizzard titles.
But that's different from expecting everyone on staff to have or agree with a phrased statement regarding 'free Hong Hong'. I honestly haven't read what the demands from protesters are, to what degree they are a unified movement, to what degree they represent the majority of the population, what China is refusing to grant them, etc. I expect that if I read up more about it, it would make me favor the protesters even more, but still, I don't want to make strong arguments for a situation where I am this ignorant.. LGBT rights are a much 'simpler', and something I do expect all staff members to support. Personally, I don’t think the particulars matter all so much.
I’m personally OK with some kind of censure over the protest, broadcasts can’t become a soapbox with everyone with an issue.
I speak only for me, but potentially more, our concern is the censure is specifically influenced by China and its whims, rather than an overarching policy of keeping politics out of such broadcasts. That is specifically my issue, and I assume the issue of others.
If I somehow got good at Hearthstone and made a ‘give Ireland back to the Irish’ speech (despite it being at odds with my own RL views) I don’t see Blizzard throwing me a year ban and a forfeiture of prize money, and banning 2 casters for giving me the platform.
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wtf this is a stupid ass demand...just because they have support a previous political issue doesnt mean they have to respond to every single one of them
what dressing them up as captain america because of their marvel partnership? wtf does that have to do with anything. You cant actually be serious in saying some LoL team wearing an american super hero t-shirt means they support america? What kind of leap in logic is this
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On October 13 2019 11:17 Shock710 wrote:wtf this is a stupid ass demand...just because they have support a previous political issue doesnt mean they have to respond to every single one of them what dressing them up as captain america because of their marvel partnership? wtf does that have to do with anything. You cant actually be serious in saying some LoL team wearing an american super hero t-shirt means they support america? What kind of leap in logic is this
It just shows some things are more important than others.
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On October 13 2019 03:28 Liquid`Drone wrote: I can't speak on behalf of the website, but I do feel I am probably one of the more politically conscious members of the staff, and I will flesh out my thoughts in some detail.
Firstly, I don't think you can make an equation behind this and being for or against LGBT rights. This, to my understanding, is vastly more complex of an issue than being for or against LGBT rights is. For that, I honestly don't really see any valid counter-arguments. Being for or against LGBT, as a non-religious person, is a question of being a shitty guy to other people or not. (I understand that for religious people it can be more conflicted. ) For this? I don't know. I haven't spent the 30+ hours required to educate myself on the complexities of the issue required for me to confidently speak about it in an educational or debating manner. I know that Hong Kong was under some form of English control until 1997. I then think it was supposed to undergo some transitional period before being overturned in some degree to Chinese control. And then I've registered that big protests have been happening, initially over some extradition law pertaining whether people from Hong Kong could be extradited to China, but where the protesters started demanding more, in form of 'western democracy' and freedom of speech, etc, where tensions have been increasing.
Now, to be absolutely clear: My understanding is that their requests are requests that I myself support. However, I do not want to get involved in a big argument regarding an issue where my knowledge is sorely lacking. For myself to get behind, or insist that we issue, some type of coherent, consistent boycott-blizzard-over-their-treatment-of-a-heartstone-pro-and-a-couple-casters- message, it would require me to be far more confident in my knowledge of the issue than I am. Now, I am a sociology teacher. My wife is doing a phd on political communication, my brother has been a former member of parliament + political adviser for one of the ministers. I come from a background where politics matters a lot. If I don't feel confident enough in this subject matter, I don't think it's reasonable to expect other staff members of a gaming-centered website to do so either.
Then there is the further issue, what political topics are so important that they transcend computer games? For as bad as my impression of China's treatment of Hong Kong is, I don't see it as the world's biggest current political issue. I don't know if it's any worse than China's treatment of Taiwan. (Where, btw, our website still lets people select 'Taiwan' as their country of residence - despite the Vatican State being the only western country that recognizes it as independent.) Hell, my understanding is that China's treatment of Tibet, or Uyghur muslims is a far bigger issue than their treatment of Hong Kong.
Again, not that I am not sympathetic to the cause. But I'm not at all convinced that this particular cause, despite having an obvious history with the company that used to be Blizzard, is one that warrants being singled out as one issue that should unite us. And I'm not arguing that 'it's only possible to speak out against the most crucial political topic', because clearly you can care about multiple issues at the same time.
For example, I think what is currently happening in Turkey and their attack on the Kurds (attempted genocide? I dunno) is a much bigger issue, and one that hits me more personally. I think the threat to western democracy is more present in certain prominent western countries, than it is in China. I think climate change is an issue that dwarfs all other political issues - combined.
And finally, I also feel this issue is much less relevant for our website than LGBT rights is, even if blizzard specifically is involved here. Gaming communities used to be notoriously homophobic. I think here, we have been far better than most, and earlier than most too. (Even if we, truth be told, did have discussions about whether we should moderate against 'gay' used as a pejorative that ended with us deciding 'no' because it was perceived as too big of a headache). Gaming communities do however not have a history of quiet acquiescence regarding countries overstepping the sovereignty of other countries or regions. While I do, based on my understanding, have a positive, pro-'free hong kong' mindset, and while I expect that many other staff members feel the same way, I also don't want to front an issue where I just.. don't know enough. And I don't think you can really expect us to do.
(I have to go now, sry if it's a bit messy, felt like posting before going but a bit rushed at the end.)
Hey Eri thanks for posting, to me you're more intertwined with Team liquid than most people, as, well, you were with the TL team right from the beginning.
I don't think this is a super necessary topic, being forced to make a stance is a bit greedy. However, I think the question here has more to do with Blizzard's actions as opposed to what China is doing in Hong Kong currently, and I do think those are actually two separate issues. The problem I see as companies are pandering to an autocratic government (and perhaps the most dictatorial in the world save north korea), is if companies and governments are being leveraged by China to censor anything that's against China's interest, then aren't we in extension also living under the same censorship?
To me there is a big difference between taking a stance yourself (such as saying "I support China"), and moderating someone so they cannot take a stance (such as banning someone for saying "I support Hong Kong"). You're right, in terms of the severity of global crises, what is happening in Hong Kong ranks low compared to even the treatment of Uyghur Muslims by China, but the actions Blizzard took seem to hit closer to home as it's a very blatant censorship of people in free speaking countries. That's threatening to us in a way we're not used to.
(Shit, sorry I didn't see your second post where you basically covered what I said already)
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On October 13 2019 06:35 Liquid`Drone wrote: But that's different from expecting everyone on staff to have or agree with a phrased statement regarding 'free Hong Hong'. I honestly haven't read what the demands from protesters are, to what degree they are a unified movement, to what degree they represent the majority of the population, what China is refusing to grant them, etc. I expect that if I read up more about it, it would make me favor the protesters even more, but still, I don't want to make strong arguments for a situation where I am this ignorant.. LGBT rights are a much 'simpler', and something I do expect all staff members to support. Their demands are: -Full withdrawal of the extradition bill from the legislative process -Retraction of the characterization of the protests as "riots" -Release and exoneration of arrested protesters -Establishment of an independent commission of inquiry into police behavior -Universal suffrage for Legislative Council and Chief Executive elections -Resignation of Carrie Lam (Chief Executive of Hong Kong)
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On October 13 2019 02:28 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: China good. They got to him. Check to make sure the family isn't kidnapped.
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I would also like a statement from the Team Liquid organization on this matter.
I'm not looking for TL to take a stance on the issue of Hong Kong as that would be unfair and irresponsible to demand an organization to take a side on an issue they are not involved or familiar with. What I do want a statement about are two things: firstly, to what extent and in what forms should players allowed to speak about controversial topics, and secondly, to what extent should players and casters conduct themselves to adhere to the laws and norms of other countries?
As we have seen with the Blizzard incident and various other incidents in the past week, there are no established norms in these regards and the tournament rules have been vague and inconsistently enforced. As one of the biggest and oldest esports organizations as well as a pioneer of competitive gaming, TL has a responsibility to play part in establishing these norms so that players and esports personnel know what they can and cannot do going forward.
What is causing a lot of uncertainty for me as well as many others is that what Blitzchung said in a post-game interview was fairly innocuous but was met with one of the swiftest and most severe punishments in esports history. Blizzard has still yet to provide a reasonable rationale for their decision or clarify their ambiguous rules. What we have also seen with several other incidents this past week is that entire organizations and events have been cancelled over what individuals have posted or liked on their personal social media account.
Going forward, there needs to be clear and unambiguous rules as well as their penalties set out that everyone agrees to beforehand. This way, individuals are better able to abide by these rules and other countries should not be able to unexpectedly withdraw from contracts because someone tweets something that may hurt national dignity.
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Norway28256 Posts
Again, I don't think this is where you get a statement from the team liquid organization. Can only give my own opinion.
I've always been very negative towards 'sport/entertainment and politics don't mix' attitudes. That attitude is a powerful mechanism for enabling the oppressing of powerless people all around the world, always has been. (Provide bread and circus and the people won't revolt, etc. ) Influential role models who are given a platform to speak out to the public are some of the best tools we have for enabling social change through democratic pressure.
But I think it takes someone with intimate knowledge of the issue to make that stand.
As for the second question; myself, I don't care much about laws from a 'moral' perspective. Laws are often derived from morality - but not always. There are countless examples throughout history of countries and regions enforcing laws that are obvious immoral; I think there are fewer examples of the people who are part of a culture rejecting the silver rule, for example. (Not that I have this quantified in any way.) And I want people to act according to their moral compass rather than according to laws - at least people who have a functional moral compass.
However, it might also be very stupid, on a personal level, to break foreign laws in a foreign country that you disagree with. I think this is more an issue of tournament organizers (in all sports, certainly not just esport) choosing to host events in countries with human rights issues than it is with the athletes participating. Athletes normally have limited time to make their mark, they're often kinda desperate to compete, and few are in a position where their personal boycott will make a big dent.
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On October 13 2019 03:14 zenist wrote: I remember users getting banned for criticizing Blizzard's SC2 before
You could criticize SC2 all you wanted in threads that were dedicated to opinions as long as you didn't try piss off someone. F.e. in dedicated story threads I called Metzen "the Uwe Boll of video games" for the writing quality in SC2 and not even got warning for that. But yeah, there was some bans like that, alas that was probably for more than just critics.
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On October 13 2019 03:28 Liquid`Drone wrote: And then I've registered that big protests have been happening, initially over some extradition law pertaining whether people from Hong Kong could be extradited to China, but where the protesters started demanding more, in form of 'western democracy' and freedom of speech, etc, where tensions have been increasing.
People in HK already enjoy freedom of speech, otherwise there would not be a protest to begin with. What they wanted ultimately is free democratic elections to ensure the governing body does not become a puppet of China. The younger generation constitutes the majority of the protesters. They are afraid of what will happen in 2047 when the 50 year agreement ends. This sentiment has been building up for quite some time, the extradition law is just a fuse that lit the whole thing up.
Many people in the mainland originally sympathized with this movement. They later got turned away as news coverage revealed a minority of protesters starting to demand independence/secession, even though the official list of demands contain no such things. I just came back from a visit to HK, the slogans/graffiti around the city definitely contain phrases suggesting taking HK back to the colonial times under western rule, so at least this part is true. So when people in the west makes a public statement such as "Free HK", people in the mainland would interpret it as calling for HK's secession from China. This is a big no-no in a very nationalistic country.
You said it well, not many people would be willing to admit not knowing enough to make a stance. The biased media coverage fueled the escalation of the matter, driving people apart and forcing everyone to take sides on this with an incomplete picture of the whole situation.
I also agree with you that China has exercised much restraints in dealing with the HK situation compared to other minority groups such as Tibet. People are jumping on this issue because it is being made a big deal by the news channels. Sometimes, freedom of the press can do more harm than good if it does not provide unbiased, independent coverage.
It would be wise for foreign corporations to stay out of matters concerning the sovereignty of the state. When people who live locally don't even have the complete picture of what's going on, how do you expect these entities to take an official stance?
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On October 13 2019 18:45 Liquid`Drone wrote: Again, I don't think this is where you get a statement from the team liquid organization. Can only give my own opinion.
I've always been very negative towards 'sport/entertainment and politics don't mix' attitudes. That attitude is a powerful mechanism for enabling the oppressing of powerless people all around the world, always has been. (Provide bread and circus and the people won't revolt, etc. ) Influential role models who are given a platform to speak out to the public are some of the best tools we have for enabling social change through democratic pressure.
But I think it takes someone with intimate knowledge of the issue to make that stand.
As for the second question; myself, I don't care much about laws from a 'moral' perspective. Laws are often derived from morality - but not always. There are countless examples throughout history of countries and regions enforcing laws that are obvious immoral; I think there are fewer examples of the people who are part of a culture rejecting the silver rule, for example. (Not that I have this quantified in any way.) And I want people to act according to their moral compass rather than according to laws - at least people who have a functional moral compass.
However, it might also be very stupid, on a personal level, to break foreign laws in a foreign country that you disagree with. I think this is more an issue of tournament organizers (in all sports, certainly not just esport) choosing to host events in countries with human rights issues than it is with the athletes participating. Athletes normally have limited time to make their mark, they're often kinda desperate to compete, and few are in a position where their personal boycott will make a big dent.
I think everybody here understands the difference between TL.net, the community site and Team Liquid, the pro-gaming team. That difference has definitely been getting bigger over time. But surely some of the staff that post here are capable of sending an internal email to Nazgul (or whatever minion he has put in charge of PR) about this question? If they don't want to respond here, but instead put out a tweet, a press release or a statement on teamliquid.com that is a perfectly adequate way to respond, but I don't see why, given how this *has* come to the attention to TL.net staffers who are also affiliated with the pro team, this is not an equally viable channel for raising the issue as sending them a tweet? Who put twitter in charge of all official communication? :O
And I think Chairman Ray's questions are quite fair questions to ask of a pro-gaming tema with the pedigree of Team Liquid.. Lets assume, for the sake of hypothesis, that Snute shares blitzchung's political views. Does Team Liquid allow him to tweet his political views? What if a pro-gramer were to take advantage of a tournament setting (e.g. Blizzcon or The International) with far more viewers than their twitter account to write in all chat (or say so up on the mainstage in the post-game interview) "Liberate Hong Kong, revolution of our age"?
Would Team Liquid take steps to protect this player from Blizzard's wrath? Would they drop them from the team if banned by Blizzard? Would they pre-emptively drop them from the team to protect them from Chinese wrath failling upon them?
In other words, how free are Team Liquid players to express their political views? Even if this angers a potential business partner?
I guess this goes in general. If Snute really doesn't find Maxnomic chairs comfortable, is he allowed to say so in an interview if someone asks him?
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Norway28256 Posts
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Northern Ireland20682 Posts
Dario is speaking sense there, at least to my sensibilities anyway.
TL’s actions here have largely spoken larger than words, although I would still like an ‘official’ statement nonetheless. Writers etc have all given opinions on this matter, to various degrees of forthrightness, so it’s pretty apparent that TL are giving the autonomy to the individuals under its rough banner and there is no ‘party line’ as such.
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Lalalaland34456 Posts
Most of the people who work for TL community or Liquid are the kind of people who fit into the community. The kind of people who fit in this community tend to be people who hold similar principles. The intensity to which we hold those principles varies but fundamentally we all agree that personal freedoms are important.
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The way I see it, a player took advantage of his competitor status and hid behind the covers of the Blizzard platform to make a political statement he knows is controversial to the Chinese public.
His actions brought Blizzard into the a lose-lose situation as there is going to be backlash from either China or the west depending on how it responded.
He obviously has the rights to express his political views. However, using the platform he was provided to compete in as a means to fulfill his own agenda is neither appropriate nor defensible.
I don't see anything wrong with the way Blizzard reacted in order to protect their own interests. The backlash, in this case from the west, is just evidence of the damage he caused to the brand that has made no political stances in the past.
It doesn't make sense to ask an organization that operates internationally to protect a player from speeches/actions under their brand that agitated an entire population.
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hid behind the covers of the Blizzard platform to make a political statement he knows is controversial to the Chinese public.
braindead take, he did the direct opposite of "hiding". He used the big stage he had to make his statement as impactful as possible.
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Why this trying to force other organisations to take a side? Its like "if you are not with us you are against us? Its dumb and annoying. If people want to take a side they will do so as they please and if not then well that's their choice. It doesn't mean anything other then that they don't want to publicly chose a side. I find it very rude to try force other people to take a side.
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TLADT24917 Posts
Not sure what you were expecting OP. For starters, as mentioned, this is a community of volunteers. There is no link with the pro-team and that was part of the reason we separated with a different url/name so that people recognize this is a community forum vs the pro-team site.The best you would've gotten is what you already got, personal opinions from different staff members on the situation. Furthermore, there's no reason for even the pro-team to take a stance on this. Doing so would be frankly stupid considering they have no role in this. Why invite trouble when it's not even knocking at your door?
As for my take, the situation in HK is really nuanced and quite complex, aka it's not as black and white as some claim, but facts are facts when it comes to what went down. Blizzard was certainly within their right to punish the player and casters for the political statement considering they have rules to follow, but the length and type is up for debate imo. I believe taking the prize money was a mistake since the player won fairly, so I'm glad to see they rescinded on that. I'm also glad to see that they modified the ban because perming for the casters, even if they prompted the player, was a bad idea imo. Is 6 months for all three a good duration? Is it a measured response? I have no clue.
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Canada8759 Posts
I'll step in to say that I am highly disappointed in the responses given, as someone who always diligently respected the values of this website and the staff who enforced them, learning today that these individuals were in fact only part time so called "volunteers" and not soulless and eternal dispenser of the god given rule of law was a brutal smack in the face. If even TL mods aren't able to give a definitive answer on a geopolitical situation than who could?
With that said I guess I would like a Teamliquid stance on this like I would like a stance from every other esport company, but if we are at the point were we want corporation to do politics at our place we might want to drop democracy all together.
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You seem to be on quite the conquest man...
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Osaka26941 Posts
On October 13 2019 01:30 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:TeamLiquid in the past has supported LGBT and has taken other political stances in the past. It has remained oddly silent on the on going fiasco that is Activision Blizzard. Not even a “What they did was in poor taste but we’re going to keep playing in their tournaments.” as some others have done. Having taken stances in the past, I feel it does NOT give you a free pass to sit this out. Except maybe you’re being forced to since you’re sponsored, in part, by China as well via Huya.com which is owned by YY Inc which is ran by China’s propaganda department. Regardless if the site as a whole is being pressured to stay quiet. I ASK for an answer. + Show Spoiler +I’ve been coming to this site for a long time and I consider it my main hangout but depending on how TL moves forward on this will determine my reaction. I’m hoping to hear something by next week or I’ll have to take a stance against TL and any other pro-team taking Chinese money as well.
Aggressive post, with many assumptions. To me it sounds like you want to hear a specific message from TL, and not what TL actually thinks. This, combined with your comments about taking it to social media make me think that your inquiry about our opinion is disingenuous. Nobody here is going to be held hostage by your feelings about this.
I also don't think that because TL has a stance about one issue (recognizing LGBT rights) that it has to make a statement about all other issues. Should we comment about the current mess in Syria? What about climate change?
Of course, this issue feels much closer to TL as it is about the company whose game we play. Should we put out an editorial? Should we cover it like news? I am not in those conversations. That being said, TL is a fan site. As others have said, perhaps the TL pro team / business will make a statement, but I don't think there is any obligation for people working on a fan site to give anything more than their own personal opinions. I also don't think those opinions should carry any more weight than any other poster on the site unless it directly affects the operation of the site.
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@Psyonic_Reaver
Bullying others into sharing your political opinion or even taking a stance by public shaming is as wrong as to enforce inhumane political propaganda for market access.
It's just an asshole move. I wanted to do the same, calling out a streamer for moderating "Hong Kong" in chat, but actually deleted the post, rather asked via Twitter. Turns out chat was just being stupidly spammed, the chinese did not give a single fuck, it was just ruining the stream for everyone.
Use this:
https://tl.net/contactus.php
to get an answer.
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On October 16 2019 05:50 Paljas wrote:Show nested quote +hid behind the covers of the Blizzard platform to make a political statement he knows is controversial to the Chinese public.
braindead take, he did the direct opposite of "hiding". He used the big stage he had to make his statement as impactful as possible. He chose this platform specifically to reach the Chinese audience, and the only impact he made was further dividing the people on both sides. Repeating some slogan without understanding what it means is what drives mob mentality, not real change.
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Well, if your moral compass is pocketed when choosing a sponsor, you still pay for the consequences, as you essentially advocate for morals you don't condone.for mammon. Arguing monetary gain, doesn't get anyone off the hook. Fortunately, i dare say.
As they say, you vote with your wallet.
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On October 13 2019 11:17 Shock710 wrote:wtf this is a stupid ass demand...just because they have support a previous political issue doesnt mean they have to respond to every single one of them what dressing them up as captain america because of their marvel partnership? wtf does that have to do with anything. You cant actually be serious in saying some LoL team wearing an american super hero t-shirt means they support america? What kind of leap in logic is this
Given that Teamliquid.net is largely a Blizzard fansite (there was liquidhearth, and their is a specific forum for Heroes of the Storm), I see this as being an issue that needs to be addressed. I see significantly more overlap between Teamliquid and Hong Kong (post-Blizzard) than their ever was between Teamliquid and LGBT issues.
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On October 16 2019 23:29 Monochromatic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2019 11:17 Shock710 wrote:wtf this is a stupid ass demand...just because they have support a previous political issue doesnt mean they have to respond to every single one of them what dressing them up as captain america because of their marvel partnership? wtf does that have to do with anything. You cant actually be serious in saying some LoL team wearing an american super hero t-shirt means they support america? What kind of leap in logic is this Given that Teamliquid.net is largely a Blizzard fansite (there was liquidhearth, and their is a specific forum for Heroes of the Storm), I see this as being an issue that needs to be addressed. I see significantly more overlap between Teamliquid and Hong Kong (post-Blizzard) than their ever was between Teamliquid and LGBT issues. Apart from being a fan site (please read this part again), people asking for teamliquid's statement are either looking to be outraged if the teamliquid statement isn't literally some "free hong kong" thing or patting themselves on the back thinking man i'm am such a good defender for justice by using this site that agrees with my own opinions.
Also, thats rather pompous of you to think LGBT doesnt have a huge interaction with the gaming culture, we literally have a thread of gay gamers on teamliquid. The derogatory and homophobic terms have been apart of toxic gaming culture from sinces its multiplayer became a thing. There was a huge amount of backlash and toxic behavior when a certain player rose through the ranks to become a top contender. Liquidhearth died ages back, even before the official forum closed, and if starcraft being a blizzard game is the assoication and this being a site dedicate to their game we might as well close the whole thing down. As according to some people even playing their game counts as not supporting human rights.
I suspect most of the outrage by people here is continuously fuel by browsing reddit and imgur, the amount of meme shit and outrage for the sake of outrage (with no actual contribution) over here is insane. I'm not saying we shouldn't fight for human rights but this current way of doing it is ridiculous in my eyes.
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Does tl.net not have any kind of leadership or hierarchy at all? Who makes the decision to change the logo to rainbow colors during pride week, or to put a top hat on it when a dearly loved caster passes away? Is it just agreed upon between the mods? If so, what's stopping the seemingly united mods on this subject from making a combined statement on behalf of tl.net like you do with other things?
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Off topic, but can someone tell me when this hard separation between teamliquid.net today's Team Liquid corporation happened?
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On October 16 2019 22:08 Glacierz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2019 05:50 Paljas wrote:hid behind the covers of the Blizzard platform to make a political statement he knows is controversial to the Chinese public.
braindead take, he did the direct opposite of "hiding". He used the big stage he had to make his statement as impactful as possible. He chose this platform specifically to reach the Chinese audience, and the only impact he made was further dividing the people on both sides. Repeating some slogan without understanding what it means is what drives mob mentality, not real change. How do you know that he doesnt understand what he said? How do you know that the didnt just chose the platform because it was the biggest he had? And since when is "he divides people" an argument for not speaking up about an such fundamental issues?
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On October 17 2019 01:28 Shock710 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2019 23:29 Monochromatic wrote:On October 13 2019 11:17 Shock710 wrote:wtf this is a stupid ass demand...just because they have support a previous political issue doesnt mean they have to respond to every single one of them what dressing them up as captain america because of their marvel partnership? wtf does that have to do with anything. You cant actually be serious in saying some LoL team wearing an american super hero t-shirt means they support america? What kind of leap in logic is this Given that Teamliquid.net is largely a Blizzard fansite (there was liquidhearth, and their is a specific forum for Heroes of the Storm), I see this as being an issue that needs to be addressed. I see significantly more overlap between Teamliquid and Hong Kong (post-Blizzard) than their ever was between Teamliquid and LGBT issues. Apart from being a fan site (please read this part again), people asking for teamliquid's statement are either looking to be outraged if the teamliquid statement isn't literally some "free hong kong" thing or patting themselves on the back thinking man i'm am such a good defender for justice by using this site that agrees with my own opinions. Also, thats rather pompous of you to think LGBT doesnt have a huge interaction with the gaming culture, we literally have a thread of gay gamers on teamliquid. The derogatory and homophobic terms have been apart of toxic gaming culture from sinces its multiplayer became a thing. There was a huge amount of backlash and toxic behavior when a certain player rose through the ranks to become a top contender. Liquidhearth died ages back, even before the official forum closed, and if starcraft being a blizzard game is the assoication and this being a site dedicate to their game we might as well close the whole thing down. As according to some people even playing their game counts as not supporting human rights. I suspect most of the outrage by people here is continuously fuel by browsing reddit and imgur, the amount of meme shit and outrage for the sake of outrage (with no actual contribution) over here is insane. I'm not saying we shouldn't fight for human rights but this current way of doing it is ridiculous in my eyes. Blizzard did wrong, and the majority of organizations deeply partnered with them are silent. I say this particularly in the week where the prize money was totally revoked and a 1 yr ban was in place.
The question on LGBT was primarily when people claimed the organization didn’t speak out on issues, but let their volunteer staff speak as they wished. How are gamers to know if TL will crumble and not support their gamers, if A TL SC2 or Dota 2 player tweeted something about Hong Kong and was banned from tournaments in China for life? Why is Blizzard the subject of boycotts, when so few other orgs make brave, public statements showing they won’t be next to fall when China acts petulantly? These questions are important.
(I’m not downplaying my gratitude that so many individuals have spoken out in their private capacity)
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On October 17 2019 01:28 Shock710 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2019 23:29 Monochromatic wrote:On October 13 2019 11:17 Shock710 wrote:wtf this is a stupid ass demand...just because they have support a previous political issue doesnt mean they have to respond to every single one of them what dressing them up as captain america because of their marvel partnership? wtf does that have to do with anything. You cant actually be serious in saying some LoL team wearing an american super hero t-shirt means they support america? What kind of leap in logic is this Given that Teamliquid.net is largely a Blizzard fansite (there was liquidhearth, and their is a specific forum for Heroes of the Storm), I see this as being an issue that needs to be addressed. I see significantly more overlap between Teamliquid and Hong Kong (post-Blizzard) than their ever was between Teamliquid and LGBT issues. Apart from being a fan site (please read this part again), people asking for teamliquid's statement are either looking to be outraged if the teamliquid statement isn't literally some "free hong kong" thing or patting themselves on the back thinking man i'm am such a good defender for justice by using this site that agrees with my own opinions. Also, thats rather pompous of you to think LGBT doesnt have a huge interaction with the gaming culture, we literally have a thread of gay gamers on teamliquid. The derogatory and homophobic terms have been apart of toxic gaming culture from sinces its multiplayer became a thing. There was a huge amount of backlash and toxic behavior when a certain player rose through the ranks to become a top contender. Liquidhearth died ages back, even before the official forum closed, and if starcraft being a blizzard game is the assoication and this being a site dedicate to their game we might as well close the whole thing down. As according to some people even playing their game counts as not supporting human rights. I suspect most of the outrage by people here is continuously fuel by browsing reddit and imgur, the amount of meme shit and outrage for the sake of outrage (with no actual contribution) over here is insane. I'm not saying we shouldn't fight for human rights but this current way of doing it is ridiculous in my eyes.
Maybe I should clarify, I see teamliquid as both a Blizzard and Esports Forum. I don't think anyone can or will argue with that statement. When the biggest Esports new of the year happens, I expect them to cover it. As well as the biggest Blizzard news of the year.
The Blitzcheung event made international headlines. When I first heard about it, I came to teamliquid, and I was surprised to see nothing. I believe this deserves coverage, and I expect it (we got an official thread when Morhaime stepped down, for example).
What I don't expect is for teamliquid to report on LGBT issues - because they never have in the past. That's what I meant when I said there's more overlap between TL and the Hong Kong situation than the LGBT community. If they never changed the icon for pride week no one would care, as there was no expectation for them to do so to begin with.
I hardly think the outrage is manufactured. I've been following the protests since they began. Just today, the leader of the Civil Human Rights Front was beaten half to death by men with hammers and is in the hospital. That's not something that should happen.
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On October 17 2019 01:28 Shock710 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2019 23:29 Monochromatic wrote:On October 13 2019 11:17 Shock710 wrote:wtf this is a stupid ass demand...just because they have support a previous political issue doesnt mean they have to respond to every single one of them what dressing them up as captain america because of their marvel partnership? wtf does that have to do with anything. You cant actually be serious in saying some LoL team wearing an american super hero t-shirt means they support america? What kind of leap in logic is this Given that Teamliquid.net is largely a Blizzard fansite (there was liquidhearth, and their is a specific forum for Heroes of the Storm), I see this as being an issue that needs to be addressed. I see significantly more overlap between Teamliquid and Hong Kong (post-Blizzard) than their ever was between Teamliquid and LGBT issues. Apart from being a fan site (please read this part again), people asking for teamliquid's statement are either looking to be outraged if the teamliquid statement isn't literally some "free hong kong" thing or patting themselves on the back thinking man i'm am such a good defender for justice by using this site that agrees with my own opinions. Also, thats rather pompous of you to think LGBT doesnt have a huge interaction with the gaming culture, we literally have a thread of gay gamers on teamliquid. The derogatory and homophobic terms have been apart of toxic gaming culture from sinces its multiplayer became a thing. There was a huge amount of backlash and toxic behavior when a certain player rose through the ranks to become a top contender. Liquidhearth died ages back, even before the official forum closed, and if starcraft being a blizzard game is the assoication and this being a site dedicate to their game we might as well close the whole thing down. As according to some people even playing their game counts as not supporting human rights. I suspect most of the outrage by people here is continuously fuel by browsing reddit and imgur, the amount of meme shit and outrage for the sake of outrage (with no actual contribution) over here is insane. I'm not saying we shouldn't fight for human rights but this current way of doing it is ridiculous in my eyes.
Uh the talk about hte backlash about the certain player is nonsense. I was on those threads and people were broadly *very* supportive. They put up good results at the time too which helped. This talk about a backlash is massively revisionist to justify moralism from some people.
The outrage is because people claimed the moral high ground fighting politics within the West but shut the hell up when there's a clear injustice by an opponent that can put pain back on you. They're aggressively fighting the culture war in the west to fight the culture war. Some of which made the world nicer some of which was simply bringing politics in.
The whole topic is moot though because it's not like TL was a beacon of LGBT rights back when the player was breaking through. I don't remember pride months here? It's not a moral leader and that's Ok for a gaming site. It comes across as a little hypocritical now with the active LGBT stance** and a little disappointing with TL's attachment to Asia but acceptable. Still produce excellent content and are the best aggregator of SC. Hypocrisy is what vice pays to virtue etc.
**Which can run the gamut of a movement's positions. Do not want to argue about that even if we're likely in alignment on 90%.
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On October 16 2019 16:40 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2019 01:30 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:TeamLiquid in the past has supported LGBT and has taken other political stances in the past. It has remained oddly silent on the on going fiasco that is Activision Blizzard. Not even a “What they did was in poor taste but we’re going to keep playing in their tournaments.” as some others have done. Having taken stances in the past, I feel it does NOT give you a free pass to sit this out. Except maybe you’re being forced to since you’re sponsored, in part, by China as well via Huya.com which is owned by YY Inc which is ran by China’s propaganda department. Regardless if the site as a whole is being pressured to stay quiet. I ASK for an answer. + Show Spoiler +I’ve been coming to this site for a long time and I consider it my main hangout but depending on how TL moves forward on this will determine my reaction. I’m hoping to hear something by next week or I’ll have to take a stance against TL and any other pro-team taking Chinese money as well. Aggressive post, with many assumptions. To me it sounds like you want to hear a specific message from TL, and not what TL actually thinks. This, combined with your comments about taking it to social media make me think that your inquiry about our opinion is disingenuous. Nobody here is going to be held hostage by your feelings about this. I also don't think that because TL has a stance about one issue (recognizing LGBT rights) that it has to make a statement about all other issues. Should we comment about the current mess in Syria? What about climate change? Of course, this issue feels much closer to TL as it is about the company whose game we play. Should we put out an editorial? Should we cover it like news? I am not in those conversations. That being said, TL is a fan site. As others have said, perhaps the TL pro team / business will make a statement, but I don't think there is any obligation for people working on a fan site to give anything more than their own personal opinions. I also don't think those opinions should carry any more weight than any other poster on the site unless it directly affects the operation of the site. I like the nuance here, even in disagreement. TL does not have a responsibility to weigh in on every divisive political issue. I disagree with activists that push for that style of corporate social responsibility. This issue involved gamers, and a games company, that is intimately connected to TeamLiquid. It raises questions about how TL would react if it was one of its players, or if it’s stance on LGBT social issues was only made in the absence of monetary and operational consequences (and I’m in no way suggesting that it’s clear it was). It raises questions about the society of eSports teams and whether they would show solidarity if China bans one from tournaments hosted in their country (a semi-parallel to when the NBA’s Daryl Morey prompted China to suddenly cease broadcasting).
In one sense, TeamLiquid transitioned from being just a fan site, to being a broad organization with a fan site and multiple international esports teams, sponsorships. In another sense, its fan site continued operation as mostly the same discussion forum that it was initially, so it’s kinda the same. The individual mod posts of their opinion on this side of things are totally appropriate. The TL.net side of operations is not at fault, as much as some have leveled their commentary on that side.
I’m trying to explain a topic without a lot of form to it. Blizzard operates in a craven manner. What means of group action can make them think twice when the next Chinese craziness of a Hong Kong level occurs? One would be companies showing open resilience at unreasonable demands. China goes batshit crazy about a tweet, the NBA acts dismissively of their response and protects their owner. Blizzard gets a notice from China about a player’s protest, Blizzard says the most they’ll do is a small fine or suspension. Blizzard caves to an unreasonable Chinese demand, every eSports team uses back channels and then public channels to express their displeasure.
I turn now to this issue’s interactions with gamers. Gamers should desire their gaming teams to not behave like profit-seeking international corporations in the area of international controversy. The teams are fan-facing. Everyone cheers for their team because they feel a personal connection or attachment to their success and fun development and pursuit of skill & teamwork. Next, many expect the teams to be defenders of their players’ interests in the areas of visa issues, unfair tournament rules, false prize money, and others. They do not have a ton of power to effect change in this area. The small amount they do have is influence on public opinion and raising awareness of problems within the community.
I see bad ends to actions like (presumably) China’s threats to Blizzard and China’s threats and actions against the NBA. If they can use access to their markets for corporate game companies, they can do the same to eSports teams. A small group of politically powerful Chinese politicians are willing to ban and censor, and hit any vulnerable financial ties of companies with their country for the smallest level of criticism. I think this is a pretty well-understood state of affairs. I have no idea if the leader after China’s Xi will be more reserved in his authoritarianism towards international organizations. I think this one will eventually make organizations like TeamLiquid(Pro) choose between major tournament access—and recruitment of Chinese players—and their values.
I wish Victor and others would publicly state what they considered in terms of statements. I wonder if other gaming teams would tell the gaming world that they will not accept forfeiture of tournament money and massive suspensions of it were their player and a protest against a major international crackdown (to differentiate from some other political protest, which might be justifiably kept away from the gaming industry). Or maybe mentally place yourself in a modern eSports team in a world with a Rwandan genocide going on, and ask yourself if the players would do right to signal a protest at the end of a tournament win. (I apologize if this example is too extreme. I believe this example to be beyond the current Uyghur forced re-education camps). Keep politics out of eSports, or let severe events have a different rubric? What would TeamLiquid do if it was a tweet from one of their Dota 2 players, and every dollar of Chinese sponsorship revenue, every Chinese player of a (future) team, and every Chinese tournament was on the line with the response? (To again draw upon the NBA parallel that is still in the back of my mind).
The primary thing driving my thinking on this matter is the question, “How much do I hold Blizzard at fault for their actions, when I reserve warmer feelings for organizations that I have no reason to believe would behave differently if they were on the hot seat?” The secondary question is, “What do I envision eSports looking like in 20 years if China gets away with bossing around every successful game, team, and individual on this planet? They hold immense power, so will the world will just divide into two spheres—one including Chinese fan involvement, and one divorced in every way from anything the CPC could use against the entity?” This manner of thinking transitions my focus from TL’s response in this individual matter, to what possible future responses might be required (say, if it was TL’s team and total loss of tournament prize money in a future event)
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Northern Ireland20682 Posts
On October 17 2019 14:43 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2019 16:40 Manifesto7 wrote:On October 13 2019 01:30 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:TeamLiquid in the past has supported LGBT and has taken other political stances in the past. It has remained oddly silent on the on going fiasco that is Activision Blizzard. Not even a “What they did was in poor taste but we’re going to keep playing in their tournaments.” as some others have done. Having taken stances in the past, I feel it does NOT give you a free pass to sit this out. Except maybe you’re being forced to since you’re sponsored, in part, by China as well via Huya.com which is owned by YY Inc which is ran by China’s propaganda department. Regardless if the site as a whole is being pressured to stay quiet. I ASK for an answer. + Show Spoiler +I’ve been coming to this site for a long time and I consider it my main hangout but depending on how TL moves forward on this will determine my reaction. I’m hoping to hear something by next week or I’ll have to take a stance against TL and any other pro-team taking Chinese money as well. Aggressive post, with many assumptions. To me it sounds like you want to hear a specific message from TL, and not what TL actually thinks. This, combined with your comments about taking it to social media make me think that your inquiry about our opinion is disingenuous. Nobody here is going to be held hostage by your feelings about this. I also don't think that because TL has a stance about one issue (recognizing LGBT rights) that it has to make a statement about all other issues. Should we comment about the current mess in Syria? What about climate change? Of course, this issue feels much closer to TL as it is about the company whose game we play. Should we put out an editorial? Should we cover it like news? I am not in those conversations. That being said, TL is a fan site. As others have said, perhaps the TL pro team / business will make a statement, but I don't think there is any obligation for people working on a fan site to give anything more than their own personal opinions. I also don't think those opinions should carry any more weight than any other poster on the site unless it directly affects the operation of the site. I like the nuance here, even in disagreement. TL does not have a responsibility to weigh in on every divisive political issue. I disagree with activists that push for that style of corporate social responsibility. This issue involved gamers, and a games company, that is intimately connected to TeamLiquid. It raises questions about how TL would react if it was one of its players, or if it’s stance on LGBT social issues was only made in the absence of monetary and operational consequences (and I’m in no way suggesting that it’s clear it was). It raises questions about the society of eSports teams and whether they would show solidarity if China bans one from tournaments hosted in their country (a semi-parallel to when the NBA’s Daryl Morey prompted China to suddenly cease broadcasting). In one sense, TeamLiquid transitioned from being just a fan site, to being a broad organization with a fan site and multiple international esports teams, sponsorships. In another sense, its fan site continued operation as mostly the same discussion forum that it was initially, so it’s kinda the same. The individual mod posts of their opinion on this side of things are totally appropriate. The TL.net side of operations is not at fault, as much as some have leveled their commentary on that side. I’m trying to explain a topic without a lot of form to it. Blizzard operates in a craven manner. What means of group action can make them think twice when the next Chinese craziness of a Hong Kong level occurs? One would be companies showing open resilience at unreasonable demands. China goes batshit crazy about a tweet, the NBA acts dismissively of their response and protects their owner. Blizzard gets a notice from China about a player’s protest, Blizzard says the most they’ll do is a small fine or suspension. Blizzard caves to an unreasonable Chinese demand, every eSports team uses back channels and then public channels to express their displeasure. I turn now to this issue’s interactions with gamers. Gamers should desire their gaming teams to not behave like profit-seeking international corporations in the area of international controversy. The teams are fan-facing. Everyone cheers for their team because they feel a personal connection or attachment to their success and fun development and pursuit of skill & teamwork. Next, many expect the teams to be defenders of their players’ interests in the areas of visa issues, unfair tournament rules, false prize money, and others. They do not have a ton of power to effect change in this area. The small amount they do have is influence on public opinion and raising awareness of problems within the community. I see bad ends to actions like (presumably) China’s threats to Blizzard and China’s threats and actions against the NBA. If they can use access to their markets for corporate game companies, they can do the same to eSports teams. A small group of politically powerful Chinese politicians are willing to ban and censor, and hit any vulnerable financial ties of companies with their country for the smallest level of criticism. I think this is a pretty well-understood state of affairs. I have no idea if the leader after China’s Xi will be more reserved in his authoritarianism towards international organizations. I think this one will eventually make organizations like TeamLiquid(Pro) choose between major tournament access—and recruitment of Chinese players—and their values. I wish Victor and others would publicly state what they considered in terms of statements. I wonder if other gaming teams would tell the gaming world that they will not accept forfeiture of tournament money and massive suspensions of it were their player and a protest against a major international crackdown (to differentiate from some other political protest, which might be justifiably kept away from the gaming industry). Or maybe mentally place yourself in a modern eSports team in a world with a Rwandan genocide going on, and ask yourself if the players would do right to signal a protest at the end of a tournament win. (I apologize if this example is too extreme. I believe this example to be beyond the current Uyghur forced re-education camps). Keep politics out of eSports, or let severe events have a different rubric? What would TeamLiquid do if it was a tweet from one of their Dota 2 players, and every dollar of Chinese sponsorship revenue, every Chinese player of a (future) team, and every Chinese tournament was on the line with the response? (To again draw upon the NBA parallel that is still in the back of my mind). The primary thing driving my thinking on this matter is the question, “How much do I hold Blizzard at fault for their actions, when I reserve warmer feelings for organizations that I have no reason to believe would behave differently if they were on the hot seat?” The secondary question is, “What do I envision eSports looking like in 20 years if China gets away with bossing around every successful game, team, and individual on this planet? They hold immense power, so will the world will just divide into two spheres—one including Chinese fan involvement, and one divorced in every way from anything the CPC could use against the entity?” This manner of thinking transitions my focus from TL’s response in this individual matter, to what possible future responses might be required (say, if it was TL’s team and total loss of tournament prize money in a future event) 100% this, both for this specific example but also for things down the line.
Let us say hypothetically things escalate in the future, perhaps a TL player gets refused entry into China for a tournament based on comments made in a purely private capacity, or something in that domain, what then?
I do not envisage this being close to the last incident of its kind, especially given that pro players stream a lot of content and interact candidly with their fans in a way most top level professional sportsmen do not.
I don’t follow non-Starcraft games and Starcraft doesn’t really have visible teams like it used to, so I’m unsure if any other organisations have commented on this either, I do feel TL is very well placed because of its long history and because it is a community/pro team hybrid in a way that few others are.
I dare say that if pressure was brought to bear in a way that affected TL’s financials, it would be well set with both the long-standing goodwill plus the older demographic/higher earners vs other organisations to plug those gaps via the community itself directly.
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On October 17 2019 03:47 Paljas wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2019 22:08 Glacierz wrote:On October 16 2019 05:50 Paljas wrote:hid behind the covers of the Blizzard platform to make a political statement he knows is controversial to the Chinese public.
braindead take, he did the direct opposite of "hiding". He used the big stage he had to make his statement as impactful as possible. He chose this platform specifically to reach the Chinese audience, and the only impact he made was further dividing the people on both sides. Repeating some slogan without understanding what it means is what drives mob mentality, not real change. How do you know that he doesnt understand what he said? How do you know that the didnt just chose the platform because it was the biggest he had? And since when is "he divides people" an argument for not speaking up about an such fundamental issues? I am a skeptic and I always question the motives of those who participate in this kind of movement. Regarding your "fundamental issues", if you are talking about the extradition bill that triggered the protests, it has already been pulled. The fundamental motivation of the bill was to allow criminals who committed crimes abroad to be prosecuted/extradited from HK, so the city does not become a safe haven for fugitives. Many would argue the intentions of the bill was good. For those who believed this bill was proposed under the Chinese government's directive to reign in people with strong dissent towards the CCP, you are too naive. If the CCP is out there to get you, they simply make you disappear, they don't need to pass some law to achieve this, even in HK.
The initial opposition actually came from a wealthy class of people who might be taking advantage of the system for things such as tax evasion and other loopholes. They peddled fear into the masses and linked this bill to the concept of "freedom". I bet most people who jumped into this did not even bother to read the bill in full. They chose to believe in some interpretation of it and started the mass protest.
Did you know many people who skip work for the protests were getting paid? I know someone who was paid 6000 HKD to lead/participate 2 days of protests. Maybe you'd like to learn who's funding the operation and what their motives are. I bet it is not for the "Freedom" you claim.
When people demand for freedom, the meaning of it is up for interpretation and this is where the issue becomes divisive. Freedom in the HK context does not mean the same thing as it does in the west. To people in the mainland, it is sometimes interpreted as secession, which is equivalent to an insult to the nation triggering painful memories of colonial oppression by the west. To many in HK it means universal suffrage, but I don't think that's a definition all the protesters agree upon.
The causes of the unrest isn't just the lack of political freedom, there are much deeper socioeconomic issues arising from the capitalism structure where the wealthy oligarchy enrich themselves by exploiting the working class. I'm not sure if you are aware of the living conditions for the working class in HK. Maybe you'd want to read up on this before pinning this movement on some ideological freedom alone.
People go to the streets when their lives are miserable and the prospects of improvement are non-existent. Riots happen when people have nothing to lose, and yet are naive enough to think the problem can be solved through mass protests and violence. If history has taught us anything, it's that protests almost never works. Even in the unlikely scenario that it does, I frankly don't believe universal suffrage will do anything to solve the deep rooted issues they have. We have free elections in the US and yet we still have similar problems, but that's besides the point.
No one has the full picture of what is happening, not even the people living locally. All we have are two sides of the story that are at odds with one another (police beating/arresting protesters, protesters committing arson/violence against others, etc). The story is really how you spin it. It is easy to take the moral high ground and wave the banner of freedom to justify actions such as vandalism and violence. People who take public platforms to fuel this anger often don't care about having an honest dialogue to resolve the deep-rooted problems in society, or hear other views that are different from theirs. They just want whoever is in charge removed and replaced with who they think can solve their own problems.
I will admit that I am wrong if this person has thought through all of the above and arrived at the conclusion that his form of protest will help the people in HK instead of dividing the nation even further and inciting more violence and unrest.
This will be an unpopular opinion, but I have always wondered: does freedom of speech mean hate speech should be allowed on a public platform? Does freedom of press mean the media is free to cover news in whatever angle they want? Do free elections mean we should follow the mob mentality of the majority even when they are wrong? Does everyone know what they are asking for when they ask for freedom? Not everything is black and white in this world, and yet people try to force each other to take sides before studying the issues fully.
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Norway28256 Posts
On October 16 2019 22:35 Dracolich70 wrote:Well, if your moral compass is pocketed when choosing a sponsor, you still pay for the consequences, as you essentially advocate for morals you don't condone.for mammon. Arguing monetary gain, doesn't get anyone off the hook. Fortunately, i dare say. As they say, you vote with your wallet.
I don't really think any gaming chair sponsors are all that immoral, at least not to my knowledge. And I don't think saying 'I really enjoy my chair from company x', even if you actually know that you like the chairs from company z more, is morally outrageous either. Sponsorships vary, but to some degree, they are essentially company x pays team x to state that the equipment from sponsorship x is quality + using their equipment. Especially in team sports I don't think you can claim that a player who acts in accordance with sponsorship deals is acting in a particularly immoral manner. (Although I mean, to be fair, I would have a very hard time being part of a company sponsored by say, a weapons manufacturer selling weapons to saudi arabia or turkey. But to my knowledge this isn't really the case for any gaming teams. (And were it the case, I'd expect it to be so convoluted that it's hard to really understand the connections without doing a lot of digging. )
I mean you can make the case that mostly any profession is immoral in some capacity (as a teacher I engage in indoctrination, and even if I want to be as unbiased as possible I cannot help ), maybe some mouse producers give their employees a higher share of company surplus than other mouse producers, maybe there's ethical RAM out there that I haven't heard of. It's very difficult to keep track of everything.
Consumers and fans stating their outrage is part of the equation though, and can be a positive contributor, so I have no issues with that. But I do think these types of social mobilizations would normally be better off targeting an organization or larger company than targeting say, individual esports-players.
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On October 15 2019 23:29 Glacierz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2019 03:28 Liquid`Drone wrote: And then I've registered that big protests have been happening, initially over some extradition law pertaining whether people from Hong Kong could be extradited to China, but where the protesters started demanding more, in form of 'western democracy' and freedom of speech, etc, where tensions have been increasing.
People in HK already enjoy freedom of speech, otherwise there would not be a protest to begin with. What they wanted ultimately is free democratic elections to ensure the governing body does not become a puppet of China. The younger generation constitutes the majority of the protesters. They are afraid of what will happen in 2047 when the 50 year agreement ends. This sentiment has been building up for quite some time, the extradition law is just a fuse that lit the whole thing up. Many people in the mainland originally sympathized with this movement. They later got turned away as news coverage revealed a minority of protesters starting to demand independence/secession, even though the official list of demands contain no such things. I just came back from a visit to HK, the slogans/graffiti around the city definitely contain phrases suggesting taking HK back to the colonial times under western rule, so at least this part is true. So when people in the west makes a public statement such as "Free HK", people in the mainland would interpret it as calling for HK's secession from China. This is a big no-no in a very nationalistic country. You said it well, not many people would be willing to admit not knowing enough to make a stance. The biased media coverage fueled the escalation of the matter, driving people apart and forcing everyone to take sides on this with an incomplete picture of the whole situation. I also agree with you that China has exercised much restraints in dealing with the HK situation compared to other minority groups such as Tibet. People are jumping on this issue because it is being made a big deal by the news channels. Sometimes, freedom of the press can do more harm than good if it does not provide unbiased, independent coverage. It would be wise for foreign corporations to stay out of matters concerning the sovereignty of the state. When people who live locally don't even have the complete picture of what's going on, how do you expect these entities to take an official stance?
I think this is very accurate.
From my point of view -- I've lived in mainland China and speak Chinese -- I've seen enough of the other side of this conflict (and I don't mean from reading state-controlled media but from talking to people in mainland China) that the simplistic, one-sided and holier-than-thou approach a lot of Westerners take on this issue just gives me a headache.
I'm not in any doubt that Blizzard did what they did for purely financial reasons. They of course have every right to control their own platforms as they see fit (and that has nothing to do with freedom of speech) but I agree with the person in this thread who pointed out that if someone made a controversial statement about Ireland, it probably wouldn't have been dealt with the same way. Why? Money.
If anyone wants to put up a fight, that's what they'll be fighting against. I guess there would be some merit to making Blizzard feel that if they punish people for utterances that aren't clearly immoral (such as holocaust denial or support for terrorism), there's going to be a backlash. But then we will also need to all nod and be accepting when people start using Blizzard's platform to say "Free Palestine!" or "The West Bank belongs to Israel!" or "Long live the Islamic Republic of Iran", or "Give Ireland back to the Irish".
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If anyone is interested in learning more about the divisiveness of the HK protests, I recommend this article that just came out. The same group of people chanting for freedom and democracy is also responsible for ostracizing non-HK people. This would be blatant racism if they didn't belong to the same race.
When people in the west voice support for their movement, I wonder how many actually think about this?
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Northern Ireland20682 Posts
I don’t think anyone really cares or wants Blizzard to be ‘Free Hong Kong’ at all. Perhaps some do
Really the issue at least for me is the mere discussion of it is grounds for censure,
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On October 18 2019 09:50 Wombat_NI wrote: I don’t think anyone really cares or wants Blizzard to be ‘Free Hong Kong’ at all. Perhaps some do
Really the issue at least for me is the mere discussion of it is grounds for censure,
That is the core of the issue indeed. A lot of people try to argue in bad faith that it's otherwise.
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On October 18 2019 05:34 Glacierz wrote:If anyone is interested in learning more about the divisiveness of the HK protests, I recommend this article that just came out. The same group of people chanting for freedom and democracy is also responsible for ostracizing non-HK people. This would be blatant racism if they didn't belong to the same race. When people in the west voice support for their movement, I wonder how many actually think about this?
The sentence "This would be racism if they didn't belong to the same race" should make any reasonable person pause. Maybe there's something else going on between these two groups of people that isn't about race? Their beliefs perhaps?
This isn't unexpected. You don't want to be part of your opposition in a country or city under siege. I wouldn't want to be living in Stockholm either if Norway and Sweden was at war. I might not agree with my government, but it would be a bad idea nevertheless. Claiming that HK shouldn't be free because some mainlander Chinese are caught up in the debacle is amazingly distasteful.
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On October 18 2019 16:17 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2019 05:34 Glacierz wrote:If anyone is interested in learning more about the divisiveness of the HK protests, I recommend this article that just came out. The same group of people chanting for freedom and democracy is also responsible for ostracizing non-HK people. This would be blatant racism if they didn't belong to the same race. When people in the west voice support for their movement, I wonder how many actually think about this? The sentence "This would be racism if they didn't belong to the same race" should make any reasonable person pause. Maybe there's something else going on between these two groups of people that isn't about race? Their beliefs perhaps? This isn't unexpected. You don't want to be part of your opposition in a country or city under siege. I wouldn't want to be living in Stockholm either if Norway and Sweden was at war. I might not agree with my government, but it would be a bad idea nevertheless. Claiming that HK shouldn't be free because some mainlander Chinese are caught up in the debacle is amazingly distasteful. It's about one group of people not able to tolerate another's beliefs. This was an example of someone who wasn't even questioning whether HK should be free, but getting ostracized for simply refusing to disseminate a post that lacks evidence. The fact that she's from the mainland was a direct cause.
Based on what you are saying, I should just quit my job, pack up my life and move whenever a movement like this happens because a bunch of people wanted something and I am not part of them? What happens to my own rights and freedom? Are my values to be trampled on because I am not with the majority? In the case where the majority is actually demanding democracy and freedom, isn't the whole movement hypocritical? What they are really demanding is their version of democracy where they decide on what's right/wrong.
One can't help but question what is the true cause for a peaceful protests to evolve into this level of hate/resentment. Are people inherently hateful or were they fed some propaganda based on biased coverage of these events? Is this the progress we are looking for when we throw our support behind their cause?
It's easy to champion for freedom, but it's important to realize people who support the cause do not share the same agenda. If sports/esports organizations were to allow these kinds of speeches freely, should they also be responsible for fact checking what they say and the consequences of their actions? My guess is they will not. Conflicts and marginalization of certain groups of players, teams, and the audience is inevitable. Is it really in anyone's interest to offer a platform for these debates when a majority of the people can be mislead because they are not informed of the full situation?
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On October 18 2019 16:08 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2019 09:50 Wombat_NI wrote: I don’t think anyone really cares or wants Blizzard to be ‘Free Hong Kong’ at all. Perhaps some do
Really the issue at least for me is the mere discussion of it is grounds for censure, That is the core of the issue indeed. A lot of people try to argue in bad faith that it's otherwise. Waving a slogan is not a discussion. Allowing for this sets a dangerous precedent where you will ultimately have to decide what kind of slogans/signs are allowed and what should be banned. The interpretations of the slogans are often subjective, and forcing a non-political organization to decide on these matters is nonsensical.
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On October 13 2019 01:30 Psyonic_Reaver wrote: TeamLiquid in the past has supported LGBT and has taken other political stances in the past.
i think its unrealistic to expect a comprehensive position from TL on LGBT issues, the China/Blizzard conflict or any other political matter.
Can TL or its agents/reps offer vague generalizations or abstract perspectives about some political issue? sure. It is unrealistic to ask TL's agents and reps to go into any kind of detail.
So as you put it .... "TeamLiquid in the past has supported LGBT"
So then, just off the top of my head here...
Does this mean TL supports Fallon Fox fighting female-born women? Does this mean TL is against the Vancouver Rape Crisis Centre's actions to exclude transgender women in certain parts of the emergency treatment areas? Some primary school girls are avoiding using the bathroom when experiencing their first menstruation cycle in the new "anything goes" public school washrooms. Does TL recommend discipline and punishments to these 11 year old girls who some are labelling as trans-phobic?
TL can't get into any kinds of details on any of these issues. Furthermore, let's assume TL formulates some comprehensive response to the Fallon Fox MMA issue. Does this mean every employee has to study the case thoroughly and be able to answer any and all questions surrounding this issue at the drop of a hat? Nah. That is unrealistic.
I'd just like TL to be a good spot to discuss SC2 game play. It is a difficult balancing act to maintain a good environment for fruitful authentic discussion about SC2 game play. Over the years TL has done a good job facilitating such discussion. TL is somewhat better than BNet. Obviously, BNet management tries to facilitate fruitful discussion about SC2 game play as well. IMO, BNet is ok while TL is somewhat better. So here I am.. yapping away.
I'm happy with TL whether or not they discuss China. TL does a nice job organizing all the SC2 activities with their right side bar. Its the feature of the site i probably use the most. Over the years I've probably handed TL .. i dunno .. $100 maybe... I've gotten more than my money's worth.
Is TL perfect or close to perfect? nah, but i don't expect it to be.
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On October 18 2019 00:30 JackyVSO wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2019 23:29 Glacierz wrote:On October 13 2019 03:28 Liquid`Drone wrote: And then I've registered that big protests have been happening, initially over some extradition law pertaining whether people from Hong Kong could be extradited to China, but where the protesters started demanding more, in form of 'western democracy' and freedom of speech, etc, where tensions have been increasing.
People in HK already enjoy freedom of speech, otherwise there would not be a protest to begin with. What they wanted ultimately is free democratic elections to ensure the governing body does not become a puppet of China. The younger generation constitutes the majority of the protesters. They are afraid of what will happen in 2047 when the 50 year agreement ends. This sentiment has been building up for quite some time, the extradition law is just a fuse that lit the whole thing up. Many people in the mainland originally sympathized with this movement. They later got turned away as news coverage revealed a minority of protesters starting to demand independence/secession, even though the official list of demands contain no such things. I just came back from a visit to HK, the slogans/graffiti around the city definitely contain phrases suggesting taking HK back to the colonial times under western rule, so at least this part is true. So when people in the west makes a public statement such as "Free HK", people in the mainland would interpret it as calling for HK's secession from China. This is a big no-no in a very nationalistic country. You said it well, not many people would be willing to admit not knowing enough to make a stance. The biased media coverage fueled the escalation of the matter, driving people apart and forcing everyone to take sides on this with an incomplete picture of the whole situation. I also agree with you that China has exercised much restraints in dealing with the HK situation compared to other minority groups such as Tibet. People are jumping on this issue because it is being made a big deal by the news channels. Sometimes, freedom of the press can do more harm than good if it does not provide unbiased, independent coverage. It would be wise for foreign corporations to stay out of matters concerning the sovereignty of the state. When people who live locally don't even have the complete picture of what's going on, how do you expect these entities to take an official stance? I think this is very accurate. From my point of view -- I've lived in mainland China and speak Chinese -- I've seen enough of the other side of this conflict (and I don't mean from reading state-controlled media but from talking to people in mainland China) that the simplistic, one-sided and holier-than-thou approach a lot of Westerners take on this issue just gives me a headache. I'm not in any doubt that Blizzard did what they did for purely financial reasons. They of course have every right to control their own platforms as they see fit (and that has nothing to do with freedom of speech) but I agree with the person in this thread who pointed out that if someone made a controversial statement about Ireland, it probably wouldn't have been dealt with the same way. Why? Money. If anyone wants to put up a fight, that's what they'll be fighting against. I guess there would be some merit to making Blizzard feel that if they punish people for utterances that aren't clearly immoral (such as holocaust denial or support for terrorism), there's going to be a backlash. But then we will also need to all nod and be accepting when people start using Blizzard's platform to say "Free Palestine!" or "The West Bank belongs to Israel!" or "Long live the Islamic Republic of Iran", or "Give Ireland back to the Irish".
I think there's something a lot of people that aren't from western countries aren't getting (although I see live in Denmark).
This particular issue is not really about the fact that Hong Kong is struggling against China. And it's not even about the fact that Blizzard doesn't want inappropriate conduct from the gamers representing their game (Although I wouldn't say they're representing blizzard at all, they play blizzard's game, they don't work for them.)
It's about the fact that a company from the US is getting leveraged by a foreign government and use fairly severe punishments to try to control people saying negative things about said government. The same thing is happening with the NBA for instance. It's not about the attack on Hong Kong, that's a separate issue. It's about the attack on us. It's exposing a huge problem that corporatism and big businesses mingling with authoritorian regimes have.
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On October 13 2019 01:30 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:TeamLiquid in the past has supported LGBT and has taken other political stances in the past. It has remained oddly silent on the on going fiasco that is Activision Blizzard. Not even a “What they did was in poor taste but we’re going to keep playing in their tournaments.” as some others have done. Having taken stances in the past, I feel it does NOT give you a free pass to sit this out. Except maybe you’re being forced to since you’re sponsored, in part, by China as well via Huya.com which is owned by YY Inc which is ran by China’s propaganda department. Regardless if the site as a whole is being pressured to stay quiet. I ASK for an answer. + Show Spoiler +I’ve been coming to this site for a long time and I consider it my main hangout but depending on how TL moves forward on this will determine my reaction. I’m hoping to hear something by next week or I’ll have to take a stance against TL and any other pro-team taking Chinese money as well.
Weren't you the person who got fired from your gaming industry job because you were throwing around racist slurs targeting Asians? Interesting! Guess you still really hate Asians...
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