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On October 10 2019 03:13 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Have you heard of what happened in Tiananmen Square in 1989?
This is all I really want to know from the pro-Chinese people in this thread. Do they know what happened in Tiananmen Square in 1989 and do they support what the Chinese government did? This would answer so much in this thread without having to address most of it. I'm sure we all know what the answers are though.
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On October 10 2019 03:03 CxWiLL wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 02:35 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 10 2019 02:23 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 01:47 Excludos wrote:On October 10 2019 01:12 chuchuchu wrote:
All people are support freedom of speech and democracy,but Japan has a Emperor，England has a Queen，US and France dont have .The same thing looks different. I can not for the life of me guess whether this is a troll, of if he's actually brainwashed enough to think that a totalitarian regime is the same as Japan and England because they have a hyped up Emperor/Queen who are as such in name only, and doesn't actually have any real power. On October 10 2019 01:31 jy_9876543210 wrote:
Well... he's just posting whatever he had learned. The big machine doesn't care about TL forum, it's too small. He just feels that he needs to do something to help no matter how little, although the entire post sounds worse than a high school essay... You severely underestimate the Chinese troll farm. They care about your mom's Facebook posts. Similarly, the Chinese also think that you have been brainwashed by the West. You often talk about freedom of speech and democracy. But when the Chinese spoke themselves, you said that the Chinese were wrong and the Chinese shut up. You always talk about your own thoughts and negate other thoughts. The Chinese never say to the TV that the American values are wrong and the Western social thoughts are wrong. American things, Americans are the masters. I want to ask, can Europeans make their own decisions? Can the British be the masters themselves? I talk about Japan and the United Kingdom. If you think that countries like Japan and the United States are the same, I hope that you can learn more about Japanese society. For example, people who committed suicide because of the emperor's abdication. I talked about Japan and the United Kingdom because, like other countries, they are democratic and free, even with emperors and queens. Similarly, the Chinese believe that they are also democratic and free, even if it does not seem to be at all. But the truth is this. The British can't vote for the Queen. The Japanese can't decide the Emperor. On the contrary, the Japanese Emperor has great influence. Although the Japanese often deny this political issue, Japan's political arena is still a political continuation from the Meiji Restoration before World War II. Think about the Shinzo Abe family. Instead of ridiculing China’s autocracy, is it also ridiculing Japan’s autocracy. I don't think anyone has ridiculed President Bush. I mean two President Bush. I want to give an example. I don't know if you can understand. In the last US election, although more than half of the people supported Hillary, Trump was still elected to the US president because the state voted more. One person, becoming the president of a country, even if he is only supported by half of the people. Is this democracy? Is this half the tyranny of the other half? Should the United States be divided into two countries, is Hillary and Trump half? In addition, I really like Trump's make America great gain, but I remember that if there were any mistakes, there were many parades in the United States, and irony, against Teplang's words. Is this the embodiment of democracy and freedom of speech? It doesn't matter if brainwashed people believe they are not brainwashed. If Chinese people believe they are not being manipulated they are simply manipulated into believing the are not manipulated. Ironic isn't it. It is simple the people/organizations that try to limit knowledge and freedom of speech always do that because they have an agenda. Having an agenda means they want to control what you know because if they succeed in controlling what you know then they also by extension control what you believe. China claiming that foreign news outlets are lying are simply another step in controling what the chinese people believe, because if only chinese news are regarded as trustworthy they control what you believe which means they control you. All governments wants to do this to everyone, manipulation is simply what everyone does. However if you censor the internet and censor news and information you don't like then we live in a totalitarian state, like China. From wiki: "Mainland Chinese Internet censorship programs have censored Web sites that include (among other things):[citation needed] Web sites belonging to "outlawed" or suppressed groups, such as pro-democracy activists and Falun Gong. News sources that often cover topics that are considered defamatory against China, such as police brutality, the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests, freedom of speech, and democracy.[64] These sites include Voice of America and the Chinese edition of BBC News.Sites related to the Taiwanese government, media, or other organizations, including sites dedicated to religious content, and most large Taiwanese community websites or blogs. Web sites that contain anything the Chinese authorities regard as obscenity or pornography. Web sites relating to criminal activity. Sites linked with the Dalai Lama, his teachings or the International Tibet Independence Movement. Most blogging sites experience frequent or permanent outages. Web sites deemed as subversive. Other topics censored include: 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests, Xinjiang re-education camps, Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China, and more." Another Chinese are brainwashed and CCP is evil post, yet again. So you boldly claim that Chinese are so brainwashed they don't even know they are brainwashed. How do you know you are in a safe place where all of your informations from western media (especially wiki, which most Chinese people won't read and edit) are all correct fact and neutral. It is just hilarious to see the people live outside of China and never visited China consider themselves more knowlegable about China than people actually living there, by only watching a few video clip and reading some poorly-based reports.
I am sorry, I understand you feel affronted, my reply was only directed at user chuchuchu. I don't really believe that chinese in general are brainwashed and I certainly don't think I know anything about your country or that all I know is right.
My point is that China as a country is heavily manipulating media, that is a fact there is no way around that. Censoring knowledge or opinion is only done as I explained to further an agenda. Therefore you cannot compare western media manipulation with chinese, it is like comparing a gun to a cannon. We have a free internet where anyone may say whatever they want and everyone is free to read whatever they want. That is a fact and it means arguing that we in the west are the manipulated ones is a moot point, it is true we are manipulated but we are still less manipulated then you.
On October 10 2019 03:08 chuchuchu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 02:35 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 10 2019 02:23 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 01:47 Excludos wrote:On October 10 2019 01:12 chuchuchu wrote:
All people are support freedom of speech and democracy,but Japan has a Emperor，England has a Queen，US and France dont have .The same thing looks different. I can not for the life of me guess whether this is a troll, of if he's actually brainwashed enough to think that a totalitarian regime is the same as Japan and England because they have a hyped up Emperor/Queen who are as such in name only, and doesn't actually have any real power. On October 10 2019 01:31 jy_9876543210 wrote:
Well... he's just posting whatever he had learned. The big machine doesn't care about TL forum, it's too small. He just feels that he needs to do something to help no matter how little, although the entire post sounds worse than a high school essay... You severely underestimate the Chinese troll farm. They care about your mom's Facebook posts. Similarly, the Chinese also think that you have been brainwashed by the West. You often talk about freedom of speech and democracy. But when the Chinese spoke themselves, you said that the Chinese were wrong and the Chinese shut up. You always talk about your own thoughts and negate other thoughts. The Chinese never say to the TV that the American values are wrong and the Western social thoughts are wrong. American things, Americans are the masters. I want to ask, can Europeans make their own decisions? Can the British be the masters themselves? I talk about Japan and the United Kingdom. If you think that countries like Japan and the United States are the same, I hope that you can learn more about Japanese society. For example, people who committed suicide because of the emperor's abdication. I talked about Japan and the United Kingdom because, like other countries, they are democratic and free, even with emperors and queens. Similarly, the Chinese believe that they are also democratic and free, even if it does not seem to be at all. But the truth is this. The British can't vote for the Queen. The Japanese can't decide the Emperor. On the contrary, the Japanese Emperor has great influence. Although the Japanese often deny this political issue, Japan's political arena is still a political continuation from the Meiji Restoration before World War II. Think about the Shinzo Abe family. Instead of ridiculing China’s autocracy, is it also ridiculing Japan’s autocracy. I don't think anyone has ridiculed President Bush. I mean two President Bush. I want to give an example. I don't know if you can understand. In the last US election, although more than half of the people supported Hillary, Trump was still elected to the US president because the state voted more. One person, becoming the president of a country, even if he is only supported by half of the people. Is this democracy? Is this half the tyranny of the other half? Should the United States be divided into two countries, is Hillary and Trump half? In addition, I really like Trump's make America great gain, but I remember that if there were any mistakes, there were many parades in the United States, and irony, against Teplang's words. Is this the embodiment of democracy and freedom of speech? It doesn't matter if brainwashed people believe they are not brainwashed. If Chinese people believe they are not being manipulated they are simply manipulated into believing the are not manipulated. Ironic isn't it. It is simple the people/organizations that try to limit knowledge and freedom of speech always do that because they have an agenda. Having an agenda means they want to control what you know because if they succeed in controlling what you know then they also by extension control what you believe. China claiming that foreign news outlets are lying are simply another step in controling what the chinese people believe, because if only chinese news are regarded as trustworthy they control what you believe which means they control you. All governments wants to do this to everyone, manipulation is simply what everyone does. However if you censor the internet and censor news and information you don't like then we live in a totalitarian state, like China. From wiki: "Mainland Chinese Internet censorship programs have censored Web sites that include (among other things):[citation needed] Web sites belonging to "outlawed" or suppressed groups, such as pro-democracy activists and Falun Gong. News sources that often cover topics that are considered defamatory against China, such as police brutality, the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests, freedom of speech, and democracy.[64] These sites include Voice of America and the Chinese edition of BBC News.Sites related to the Taiwanese government, media, or other organizations, including sites dedicated to religious content, and most large Taiwanese community websites or blogs. Web sites that contain anything the Chinese authorities regard as obscenity or pornography. Web sites relating to criminal activity. Sites linked with the Dalai Lama, his teachings or the International Tibet Independence Movement. Most blogging sites experience frequent or permanent outages. Web sites deemed as subversive. Other topics censored include: 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests, Xinjiang re-education camps, Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China, and more." I don't want to talk about these issues, because your approach is not through personal experience, but the Western media. I can simply say a few things. You can go and find out, maybe there is a deeper feeling. 1. Falun Gong preaches that they can acquire the same abilities as Superman. They are basically seriously ill, and they don’t have to go to the hospital. They must respect the Lord as their father, obey all commands, and basically self-immolation. I have an uncle, because he have practiced Falun Gong and he was ridiculed by everyone around me. It is true that it is unbelievable that because of socialism, the Chinese are more convinced of science. 2. The problem of Tibet, the territorial issue need not be said more. The primitive religion of Tibet was ruled in Tibet. At that time, the Chinese Communist Party’s army hoped to peacefully reunite Tibet. However, they found that Tibetan religion actually practiced slavery. Tibet’s situation is like Leo. Pod II is like his Congolese Free State. Of course you see a kindly exile, telling you some mysterious oriental religious thoughts, but he never told you that he used to be a slave owner, using the religious utensils of the human skin, and the things like the sister drum. I hope that you will not be afraid at night. You can also check Mao Zedong's position in Tibet. You may not believe it. He is considered to be a generation of Tibetan religious leaders (there are paper documents, museums I see). 3. Organ problems. China is not a country that is always complete, or even a relatively complete law. We are working hard, but I think that China, which was chaotic years ago, is developing too fast, so we often say that we used In less than 30 years, it has gone through hundreds of years of Western history, and modern civilization and primitive agricultural civilization coexist. If you are curious, in the public network search, sell your kidneys to buy Apple mobile news, you may understand that organ problems are not government manipulation, but the product of low education, unsound laws, and chaotic times. It’s gone now, because everything has changed. The Chinese government does not need to buy and sell organs to make money. This is very naive. Do you think China is authoritarian? Only the government needs a word, where to buy and sell organs. 4, Beijing 1989, you can go to Wikipedia to see, because I also saw where, from a person who accepts Chinese culture, I will not believe that: I can not die, they can bleed, but I am going to the United States . There are also the same experiencers who said that the massacre did not exist. But does it exist? You can search for the complete video of the tank, which is the video of the person being taken away after the circumvention. You can also search for photos of some police and soldiers being burned on the flyover. It is true that they have treated people with restraint, but unfortunately people sometimes do not treat them with restraint, just like Hong Kong now.
I'm sorry but I don't care. The issues you describe above are topics that the Chinese government censor, either
A) You have researched sources that are banned in your country and thus learned truths that your government wants to hide from you.
Or
B) You are writing the information that the Chinese goverment are feeding you while at the same time saying that it is not allowed to fact check this information.
So either you have broken your countries rules and gone out of your way to research what you are not allowed to research, which in and of itself is proof that you don't agree with the rules of your country. Or you are just ignorantly repeating the drivel spoonfed to your by the government.
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On October 10 2019 02:04 chuchuchu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 01:44 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 10 2019 01:28 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 01:21 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 10 2019 01:04 Spirit_HUN wrote:
When this player signed up for that tournament, he accepted the rules.
He simply broke the rules, ended up banning himself.
Blizzard did the right thing. This is a video game company, not a political platform.
If you are concerned about human rights in Hong Kong the are other ways, platforms to do that.
You should not force a video game company to be political.
There are no political comments in the Olympics, Football, Formula1 etc. as well.
I dont want video games, sports events to be filled with politics. Viewers are there to be entertained, competitors are there to compete, and not to be forced to eat political bs 0-24. They’re not a political platform, but they do have a clear political position here which is tow whatever line the Chinese authorities want them to tow. Seems to me it was a pretty good platform for the guy to use really, although the attention it gained was more from Blizzard’s reaction than his actions specifically. Gained a fuckload of traction even US Senators are wading in, doubt he’d have been able to elicit such a response with a tweet. China and especially the Gulf States use sport as an extension of their soft power, they’ve made it political already, likewise the Cold War saw sporting events like the Olympics as an ideological battleground. if it is not an political extension of soft power,why some officials of the organization are talking about politics？if not,STOP talking.As an official, you can't blatantly confront the Chinese public opinion while thinking that discrimination against Chinese people, Chinese culture and support separatism and violence. Why not? National self-determination is a key principle of geopolitics in the modern era. Considering a bomb blew in the windows of my house when I was but a babe, I’m quite happy that the United States interceded and helped facilitate a peace here that respected both of the national identities in our wee country. I would personally like to see more of China and its culture emerge onto the world stage, an old and venerable culture indeed, whose people have accomplished remarkable things in the last few decades especially. If it’s by trampling on everyone and expecting Westerners to bend to their whims and where criticism is construed as a grievous insult then, no thanks. When you think so, have you ever asked about the thoughts of ordinary Chinese? It's like I'm here to express the thoughts of an ordinary Chinese. Indeed, I feel sad that I didn't learn English well, because what I lost is not a good paper, but an opportunity to communicate with others. Not only Americans can define the world. The pioneers of socialism and communism are Germans and French. Formerly President Roosevelt of the United States was also criticized for socialism or communism. But think about Chinese history, the current development of China, and the past workers of Britain. Some ideological conflicts are unavoidable, especially under the propaganda of some western media, they usually distort the report in order to satisfy their own interests. China does not do very well in many places, but it does not want to do so. No Chinese wants his country to be like India with the same population. (I do not mean to discriminate. Most Chinese want to live a good life first and guarantee everyone the same rights, wealth, rights and status.) In China, it is still possible to elect people who have been upgraded from the grassroots level through examinations and votes, while officials at the grassroots level are also elected. In China, former leaders were even born to poor peasants rather than a billion-dollar owner or equally wealthy political family. Both father and son are presidents. Western media believe that China is undemocratic and not free, and the Chinese believe that they are free and democratic. This seems to be a disgusting tactic. I was disappointed with many of the statements, especially those of the distorted Sixth Fourth Movement (my father was one of the participants, but later they built China into the second largest country in the world), and those who believed that the Hong Kong police should not react to any of the protestors'actions. When commenting, consider that China has 1.4 billion people. This country can not change because of the ideas of more than a dozen people, thousands of people and tens of thousands of people. The most important thing is to ensure that more than a billion people, like other Westerners, can live with wealth and dignity on this planet.
I wonder what this guy thinks about the hundreds of students that were murdered at Tienanmen Square in 1989.
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On October 10 2019 03:10 chuchuchu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 02:58 Zaros wrote:
I will stop supporting Hearthstone or watching any Hearthstone content, I barely play starcraft but I do watch all the tournaments and will continue to do so for now but I will see if Blizzard has any change in policy.
I think a lot of the Chinese media/government have obviously tried to paint the protesters as terrorists and criminals but they have also tried to make it as if Hong Kong wants to be an independent country (which some do want but that is a minority) rather than having the freedoms they were guaranteed while being a part of China.
China signed an international treaty with the UK that guaranteed the rights of Hong Kong'ers for 50 years, it is blatantly breaking that treaty, there should be a bigger UK and international response. Do you support Northern Ireland independence, Scotland independence?
I don't support either but I would accept it if the people voted for it, I don't support Hong Kong independence either, it has no basis as a country its only ever been part of China, one of its historic kingdoms or the British Empire. I do support Human rights for everyone on Earth and unfortunately its easier to get riled about someone having their rights taken away in this case Hong Kong rather than someone never having them in the first place e.g. mainland China.
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On October 10 2019 03:08 chuchuchu wrote:
I don't want to talk about these issues, because your approach is not through personal experience, but the Western media.
I can simply say a few things. You can go and find out, maybe there is a deeper feeling.
1. Falun Gong preaches that they can acquire the same abilities as Superman. They are basically seriously ill, and they don’t have to go to the hospital. They must respect the Lord as their father, obey all commands, and basically self-immolation.
I have an uncle, because he have practiced Falun Gong and he was ridiculed by everyone around me. It is true that it is unbelievable that because of socialism, the Chinese are more convinced of science.
2. The problem of Tibet, the territorial issue need not be said more. The primitive religion of Tibet was ruled in Tibet. At that time, the Chinese Communist Party’s army hoped to peacefully reunite Tibet. However, they found that Tibetan religion actually practiced slavery. Tibet’s situation is like Leo. Pod II is like his Congolese Free State. Of course you see a kindly exile, telling you some mysterious oriental religious thoughts, but he never told you that he used to be a slave owner, using the religious utensils of the human skin, and the things like the sister drum. I hope that you will not be afraid at night. You can also check Mao Zedong's position in Tibet. You may not believe it. He is considered to be a generation of Tibetan religious leaders (there are paper documents, museums I see).
3. Organ problems. China is not a country that is always complete, or even a relatively complete law. We are working hard, but I think that China, which was chaotic years ago, is developing too fast, so we often say that we used In less than 30 years, it has gone through hundreds of years of Western history, and modern civilization and primitive agricultural civilization coexist. If you are curious, in the public network search, sell your kidneys to buy Apple mobile news, you may understand that organ problems are not government manipulation, but the product of low education, unsound laws, and chaotic times. It’s gone now, because everything has changed. The Chinese government does not need to buy and sell organs to make money. This is very naive. Do you think China is authoritarian? Only the government needs a word, where to buy and sell organs.
4, Beijing 1989, you can go to Wikipedia to see, because I also saw where, from a person who accepts Chinese culture, I will not believe that: I can not die, they can bleed, but I am going to the United States . There are also the same experiencers who said that the massacre did not exist.
But does it exist? You can search for the complete video of the tank, which is the video of the person being taken away after the circumvention. You can also search for photos of some police and soldiers being burned on the flyover. It is true that they have treated people with restraint, but unfortunately people sometimes do not treat them with restraint, just like Hong Kong now. This is pure unadulterated Chinese propaganda. Reminds of when I was in Shanghai, a local man for some strange reason completely unprompted decide to tell me about the evils of Falun Gong. How their most senior adherents would kill themselves by slicing their bellies open to their followers because they felt the wheel turning in them. When I asked how they would pass on their beliefs then seeing as they would be dead, he just looked at me with a blank stare. I am not joking.
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Activision/Blizzard is making really strange moves from the business side.
In the past Blizzard was the AAA-blockbuster company. They would make games that try to appeal to everyone, but mostly users of personal computers. Their historical markets were "West" (USA, Europe, Australia), they got lucky with Korea (but Korea has a lot of own games) and they tried to have some success in Japan (but Japanese players seem to prefer console games, not PC games).
Now they seem to move towards pay-2-win, reskins of other games... for mobile phones.
In fact they seem to ignore their traditional "Western" markets - and they try to compete with Chinese companies for Chinese market. But how is this supposed to work? If your game is not good enough to everyone (whole world), they want to be able to compete with Chinese.. while being situated in USA? I dont mention that their team probably earns 10x more than a typical Chinese developer... people from China know their own country/language/playerbase better - so some local Chinese company can make a better mobile game for China - because they are making a game for themselves. Some manager from USA thinks that he knows China good enough, if he does not live there?
Companies need to innovate, or at least join new markets. But they are not innovating, they want to release reskins of shitty mobile phone games for Chinese players. As if those Chinese players were so stupid that they didnt know those are reskins.
Also making such games is not in Blizzard expertise. (although it does not mean that they will not learn, but looking at the results so far, they are very outside of own experise - in both game making and marketing - the backlask against Diablo Immortal was increidible). They basically alienate their old playerbase, their old customers in hope that they can get new customers in China. Even if it worked, it would make them dependent on Chinese government and public opinion. I mean, most mainland Chinese seem to be very nationalistic, so they drink this coolaid, but in most other countries, people inside would also boycott Blizzard too.
What baffles is most is that I simply dont believe that a company located in USA has a chance to compete with Chinese game makers who know the local markets better. Do they think that some US-designer is better than a Chinese designer? Someone from China probably knows better what other Chinese like.
In fact if Blizzard's games are not good to appeal to "whole world", I dont think their brand will appeal to Chinese players.
Why would you even want to have a studio in California? Outsource / outshore it all to China. But this probably means that Blizzard will die.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9p6ufcB.jpg)
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On October 10 2019 03:12 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 03:03 CxWiLL wrote:On October 10 2019 02:35 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 10 2019 02:23 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 01:47 Excludos wrote:On October 10 2019 01:12 chuchuchu wrote:
All people are support freedom of speech and democracy,but Japan has a Emperor，England has a Queen，US and France dont have .The same thing looks different. I can not for the life of me guess whether this is a troll, of if he's actually brainwashed enough to think that a totalitarian regime is the same as Japan and England because they have a hyped up Emperor/Queen who are as such in name only, and doesn't actually have any real power. On October 10 2019 01:31 jy_9876543210 wrote:
Well... he's just posting whatever he had learned. The big machine doesn't care about TL forum, it's too small. He just feels that he needs to do something to help no matter how little, although the entire post sounds worse than a high school essay... You severely underestimate the Chinese troll farm. They care about your mom's Facebook posts. Similarly, the Chinese also think that you have been brainwashed by the West. You often talk about freedom of speech and democracy. But when the Chinese spoke themselves, you said that the Chinese were wrong and the Chinese shut up. You always talk about your own thoughts and negate other thoughts. The Chinese never say to the TV that the American values are wrong and the Western social thoughts are wrong. American things, Americans are the masters. I want to ask, can Europeans make their own decisions? Can the British be the masters themselves? I talk about Japan and the United Kingdom. If you think that countries like Japan and the United States are the same, I hope that you can learn more about Japanese society. For example, people who committed suicide because of the emperor's abdication. I talked about Japan and the United Kingdom because, like other countries, they are democratic and free, even with emperors and queens. Similarly, the Chinese believe that they are also democratic and free, even if it does not seem to be at all. But the truth is this. The British can't vote for the Queen. The Japanese can't decide the Emperor. On the contrary, the Japanese Emperor has great influence. Although the Japanese often deny this political issue, Japan's political arena is still a political continuation from the Meiji Restoration before World War II. Think about the Shinzo Abe family. Instead of ridiculing China’s autocracy, is it also ridiculing Japan’s autocracy. I don't think anyone has ridiculed President Bush. I mean two President Bush. I want to give an example. I don't know if you can understand. In the last US election, although more than half of the people supported Hillary, Trump was still elected to the US president because the state voted more. One person, becoming the president of a country, even if he is only supported by half of the people. Is this democracy? Is this half the tyranny of the other half? Should the United States be divided into two countries, is Hillary and Trump half? In addition, I really like Trump's make America great gain, but I remember that if there were any mistakes, there were many parades in the United States, and irony, against Teplang's words. Is this the embodiment of democracy and freedom of speech? It doesn't matter if brainwashed people believe they are not brainwashed. If Chinese people believe they are not being manipulated they are simply manipulated into believing the are not manipulated. Ironic isn't it. It is simple the people/organizations that try to limit knowledge and freedom of speech always do that because they have an agenda. Having an agenda means they want to control what you know because if they succeed in controlling what you know then they also by extension control what you believe. China claiming that foreign news outlets are lying are simply another step in controling what the chinese people believe, because if only chinese news are regarded as trustworthy they control what you believe which means they control you. All governments wants to do this to everyone, manipulation is simply what everyone does. However if you censor the internet and censor news and information you don't like then we live in a totalitarian state, like China. From wiki: "Mainland Chinese Internet censorship programs have censored Web sites that include (among other things):[citation needed] Web sites belonging to "outlawed" or suppressed groups, such as pro-democracy activists and Falun Gong. News sources that often cover topics that are considered defamatory against China, such as police brutality, the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests, freedom of speech, and democracy.[64] These sites include Voice of America and the Chinese edition of BBC News.Sites related to the Taiwanese government, media, or other organizations, including sites dedicated to religious content, and most large Taiwanese community websites or blogs. Web sites that contain anything the Chinese authorities regard as obscenity or pornography. Web sites relating to criminal activity. Sites linked with the Dalai Lama, his teachings or the International Tibet Independence Movement. Most blogging sites experience frequent or permanent outages. Web sites deemed as subversive. Other topics censored include: 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests, Xinjiang re-education camps, Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China, and more." Another Chinese are brainwashed and CCP is evil post, yet again. So you boldly claim that Chinese are so brainwashed they don't even know they are brainwashed. How do you know you are in a safe place where all of your informations from western media (especially wiki, which most Chinese people won't read and edit) are all correct fact and neutral. It is just hilarious to see the people live outside of China and never visited China consider themselves more knowlegable about China than people actually living there, by only watching a few video clip and reading some poorly-based reports. I don’t particularly like the word brainwashed, as it infers negative connotations to the recipient, be it a lack of critical faculties or whatever. I really don’t think it’s arguable that Westerners have more open access to information than Chinese people. It’s not hearsay or some misconception it just absolutely the case. The two media spheres are not at all equivalent. In the West there is a veritable fuckton of bullshit out there, and people trying to convince people to lean in a certain direction, absolutely. But these entities are all in competition for the hearts and minds of people in our area of the world, and a discerning person can sift through and make up their own minds. In China, there is one real arbiter on information that has particular goals, and people do not have (easy) access to information outside of those parameters.
I, as a Chinese, have stay in the states for almost 10 years. And I believe I have access to both voices from inside and outside of China. The problem is that the media power gap is so huge that western people simply won't listen to other voices, or even simply consider they are wrong. Because they think they already know everything.
Just as I have said, it is simply hilarious if you think you know China better than a Chinese. Even with the block, most Chinese people find their access to the information they need, a free proxy network is not that hard to find in China.
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On October 10 2019 03:11 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 03:03 CxWiLL wrote:On October 10 2019 02:35 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 10 2019 02:23 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 01:47 Excludos wrote:On October 10 2019 01:12 chuchuchu wrote:
All people are support freedom of speech and democracy,but Japan has a Emperor，England has a Queen，US and France dont have .The same thing looks different. I can not for the life of me guess whether this is a troll, of if he's actually brainwashed enough to think that a totalitarian regime is the same as Japan and England because they have a hyped up Emperor/Queen who are as such in name only, and doesn't actually have any real power. On October 10 2019 01:31 jy_9876543210 wrote:
Well... he's just posting whatever he had learned. The big machine doesn't care about TL forum, it's too small. He just feels that he needs to do something to help no matter how little, although the entire post sounds worse than a high school essay... You severely underestimate the Chinese troll farm. They care about your mom's Facebook posts. Similarly, the Chinese also think that you have been brainwashed by the West. You often talk about freedom of speech and democracy. But when the Chinese spoke themselves, you said that the Chinese were wrong and the Chinese shut up. You always talk about your own thoughts and negate other thoughts. The Chinese never say to the TV that the American values are wrong and the Western social thoughts are wrong. American things, Americans are the masters. I want to ask, can Europeans make their own decisions? Can the British be the masters themselves? I talk about Japan and the United Kingdom. If you think that countries like Japan and the United States are the same, I hope that you can learn more about Japanese society. For example, people who committed suicide because of the emperor's abdication. I talked about Japan and the United Kingdom because, like other countries, they are democratic and free, even with emperors and queens. Similarly, the Chinese believe that they are also democratic and free, even if it does not seem to be at all. But the truth is this. The British can't vote for the Queen. The Japanese can't decide the Emperor. On the contrary, the Japanese Emperor has great influence. Although the Japanese often deny this political issue, Japan's political arena is still a political continuation from the Meiji Restoration before World War II. Think about the Shinzo Abe family. Instead of ridiculing China’s autocracy, is it also ridiculing Japan’s autocracy. I don't think anyone has ridiculed President Bush. I mean two President Bush. I want to give an example. I don't know if you can understand. In the last US election, although more than half of the people supported Hillary, Trump was still elected to the US president because the state voted more. One person, becoming the president of a country, even if he is only supported by half of the people. Is this democracy? Is this half the tyranny of the other half? Should the United States be divided into two countries, is Hillary and Trump half? In addition, I really like Trump's make America great gain, but I remember that if there were any mistakes, there were many parades in the United States, and irony, against Teplang's words. Is this the embodiment of democracy and freedom of speech? It doesn't matter if brainwashed people believe they are not brainwashed. If Chinese people believe they are not being manipulated they are simply manipulated into believing the are not manipulated. Ironic isn't it. It is simple the people/organizations that try to limit knowledge and freedom of speech always do that because they have an agenda. Having an agenda means they want to control what you know because if they succeed in controlling what you know then they also by extension control what you believe. China claiming that foreign news outlets are lying are simply another step in controling what the chinese people believe, because if only chinese news are regarded as trustworthy they control what you believe which means they control you. All governments wants to do this to everyone, manipulation is simply what everyone does. However if you censor the internet and censor news and information you don't like then we live in a totalitarian state, like China. From wiki: "Mainland Chinese Internet censorship programs have censored Web sites that include (among other things):[citation needed] Web sites belonging to "outlawed" or suppressed groups, such as pro-democracy activists and Falun Gong. News sources that often cover topics that are considered defamatory against China, such as police brutality, the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests, freedom of speech, and democracy.[64] These sites include Voice of America and the Chinese edition of BBC News.Sites related to the Taiwanese government, media, or other organizations, including sites dedicated to religious content, and most large Taiwanese community websites or blogs. Web sites that contain anything the Chinese authorities regard as obscenity or pornography. Web sites relating to criminal activity. Sites linked with the Dalai Lama, his teachings or the International Tibet Independence Movement. Most blogging sites experience frequent or permanent outages. Web sites deemed as subversive. Other topics censored include: 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests, Xinjiang re-education camps, Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China, and more." Another Chinese are brainwashed and CCP is evil post, yet again. So you boldly claim that Chinese are so brainwashed they don't even know they are brainwashed. How do you know you are in a safe place where all of your informations from western media (especially wiki, which most Chinese people won't read and edit) are all correct fact and neutral. It is just hilarious to see the people live outside of China and never visited China consider themselves more knowlegable about China than people actually living there, by only watching a few video clip and reading some poorly-based reports. For one, our media is allowed to criticise our own government, and does so repeatedly. That alone should be enough proof that they aren't controlled. Neither is anything censored anywhere (With the exception of things like child porn and threats of violence, thank god). So you can't claim that we're being brainwashed when we have open channels to all forms of communications, something China isn't willing to do. Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 03:10 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 02:58 Zaros wrote:
I will stop supporting Hearthstone or watching any Hearthstone content, I barely play starcraft but I do watch all the tournaments and will continue to do so for now but I will see if Blizzard has any change in policy.
I think a lot of the Chinese media/government have obviously tried to paint the protesters as terrorists and criminals but they have also tried to make it as if Hong Kong wants to be an independent country (which some do want but that is a minority) rather than having the freedoms they were guaranteed while being a part of China.
China signed an international treaty with the UK that guaranteed the rights of Hong Kong'ers for 50 years, it is blatantly breaking that treaty, there should be a bigger UK and international response. Do you support Northern Ireland independence, Scotland independence? I'm not the guy you asked, but let me answer anyways: Yes and Yes. In fact, it's very likely Scotland might go independent if England finalises their Brexit. At which point England or anyone else can't and shouldn't stop them from doing so.
In China, people criticize the government as much, and even use some of the leaders' emoji is very popular. People criticize the country as much. However, the Chinese are very subtle about this. We are not willing to be high-profile and openly confrontation, which will only be more intense. We like to sit down and have dinner together and have a happy discussion. It is decided by experts from all walks of life. At the same time, in Chinese culture, there is a culture that respects the elders. In fact, East Asian culture is.
Rather than the Americans who protested to Trump as president, everyone would like to rock metal bands, then go to drugs, feel cool, China is more mature in politics, we all know that false propaganda is meaningless, so Even socialism has changed in China, leaving only the core and changing its form.
Is there no review elsewhere in the world? What is the FBI and CIA doing? I still remember the news that terrorists passed the message through World of Warcraft, and Snowden went into exile because he told people that the US government was listening to everyone on the planet, listening to Merkel, the German chancellor. Think about Google's push and the recent collection of mass information from Apple. The government can be their spokesperson. Think about who provided the funds for the campaign. Is it provided by Russians who have been largely deleted?
One joke is that the Americans said that China's Huawei company would monitor and cause cyber threats. Then the German Chancellor asked him what evidence he had. The Americans said they were listening to Huawei's mobile phone.
China's censorship is not as terrible as you think. In other words, it is usually child pornography or racist speech. Of course, capitalism in China is the same as socialism in the United States.
If China is really as you said, you will see, China StarCraft 2 League? See the game of time? We are very free, you will be here, on Twitter, on youtube, on Facebook, or do you think why the NBA and this Blizzard event have become what they are today?
We can all see it, but in China, it is quite ridiculous for the Chinese to read the Western media. By the way, I have been to Europe 3 times, so the EU countries, Japan, South Korea, Singapore, USA, Canada, I I have not been to Russia yet, but I decided to go there next year. I know what these places look like.
On the one hand, the vast majority of Chinese cannot communicate in languages other than Chinese. On the one hand, Chinese people like their own culture and are not willing to communicate. Especially on the web.
China also has an advanced network, just some apps or websites. The West is not as good as China's, such as copying the wechat line, and so on. Of course, Westerners often don't believe it.
I also often read many journal articles like Economists. If BBC can put the last time Oxford's compensation about the British against the colony, and their former boss sexual assault on the website, I believe he will be blocked for a later time.
In fact, Westerners are not to be seen in China. I think it is prejudice, but this is caused by Westerners themselves, such as the genocide in Africa, India, and the American continent (American Indians are yellowers), and Unfair treatment of China during the First World War, as well as the war violence in the late Qing Dynasty in China, and semi-colonial behavior. For example, Hong Kong has a deep sting for China.
At some point, people tend to think that this is just a racial superiority of Caucasians and wants to impose ideas on people in other regions.
Although the Chinese also confront the Japanese, at least the Chinese love Japan in many ways, because Japan will not do so.
What I often saw when I was a child was the advanced of Western civilization. My favorite is nasa, but unfortunately I am afraid that I have no chance with aerospace. Whether it is media or school education, the United States and Europe are exemplary. It’s a pity that when I grew up and traveled around the world, the Internet started, but I found out that this is not the case. Americans are not all scientists and astronauts, nor Michael Jackson, nor do they sing we are the world. .
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They really went all out on this, they even removed the entire VOD, so now I can't watch the final. Sad face T.T
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On October 10 2019 03:26 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 03:03 CxWiLL wrote:On October 10 2019 02:35 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 10 2019 02:23 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 01:47 Excludos wrote:On October 10 2019 01:12 chuchuchu wrote:
All people are support freedom of speech and democracy,but Japan has a Emperor，England has a Queen，US and France dont have .The same thing looks different. I can not for the life of me guess whether this is a troll, of if he's actually brainwashed enough to think that a totalitarian regime is the same as Japan and England because they have a hyped up Emperor/Queen who are as such in name only, and doesn't actually have any real power. On October 10 2019 01:31 jy_9876543210 wrote:
Well... he's just posting whatever he had learned. The big machine doesn't care about TL forum, it's too small. He just feels that he needs to do something to help no matter how little, although the entire post sounds worse than a high school essay... You severely underestimate the Chinese troll farm. They care about your mom's Facebook posts. Similarly, the Chinese also think that you have been brainwashed by the West. You often talk about freedom of speech and democracy. But when the Chinese spoke themselves, you said that the Chinese were wrong and the Chinese shut up. You always talk about your own thoughts and negate other thoughts. The Chinese never say to the TV that the American values are wrong and the Western social thoughts are wrong. American things, Americans are the masters. I want to ask, can Europeans make their own decisions? Can the British be the masters themselves? I talk about Japan and the United Kingdom. If you think that countries like Japan and the United States are the same, I hope that you can learn more about Japanese society. For example, people who committed suicide because of the emperor's abdication. I talked about Japan and the United Kingdom because, like other countries, they are democratic and free, even with emperors and queens. Similarly, the Chinese believe that they are also democratic and free, even if it does not seem to be at all. But the truth is this. The British can't vote for the Queen. The Japanese can't decide the Emperor. On the contrary, the Japanese Emperor has great influence. Although the Japanese often deny this political issue, Japan's political arena is still a political continuation from the Meiji Restoration before World War II. Think about the Shinzo Abe family. Instead of ridiculing China’s autocracy, is it also ridiculing Japan’s autocracy. I don't think anyone has ridiculed President Bush. I mean two President Bush. I want to give an example. I don't know if you can understand. In the last US election, although more than half of the people supported Hillary, Trump was still elected to the US president because the state voted more. One person, becoming the president of a country, even if he is only supported by half of the people. Is this democracy? Is this half the tyranny of the other half? Should the United States be divided into two countries, is Hillary and Trump half? In addition, I really like Trump's make America great gain, but I remember that if there were any mistakes, there were many parades in the United States, and irony, against Teplang's words. Is this the embodiment of democracy and freedom of speech? It doesn't matter if brainwashed people believe they are not brainwashed. If Chinese people believe they are not being manipulated they are simply manipulated into believing the are not manipulated. Ironic isn't it. It is simple the people/organizations that try to limit knowledge and freedom of speech always do that because they have an agenda. Having an agenda means they want to control what you know because if they succeed in controlling what you know then they also by extension control what you believe. China claiming that foreign news outlets are lying are simply another step in controling what the chinese people believe, because if only chinese news are regarded as trustworthy they control what you believe which means they control you. All governments wants to do this to everyone, manipulation is simply what everyone does. However if you censor the internet and censor news and information you don't like then we live in a totalitarian state, like China. From wiki: "Mainland Chinese Internet censorship programs have censored Web sites that include (among other things):[citation needed] Web sites belonging to "outlawed" or suppressed groups, such as pro-democracy activists and Falun Gong. News sources that often cover topics that are considered defamatory against China, such as police brutality, the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests, freedom of speech, and democracy.[64] These sites include Voice of America and the Chinese edition of BBC News.Sites related to the Taiwanese government, media, or other organizations, including sites dedicated to religious content, and most large Taiwanese community websites or blogs. Web sites that contain anything the Chinese authorities regard as obscenity or pornography. Web sites relating to criminal activity. Sites linked with the Dalai Lama, his teachings or the International Tibet Independence Movement. Most blogging sites experience frequent or permanent outages. Web sites deemed as subversive. Other topics censored include: 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests, Xinjiang re-education camps, Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China, and more." Another Chinese are brainwashed and CCP is evil post, yet again. So you boldly claim that Chinese are so brainwashed they don't even know they are brainwashed. How do you know you are in a safe place where all of your informations from western media (especially wiki, which most Chinese people won't read and edit) are all correct fact and neutral. It is just hilarious to see the people live outside of China and never visited China consider themselves more knowlegable about China than people actually living there, by only watching a few video clip and reading some poorly-based reports. I am sorry, I understand you feel affronted, my reply was only directed at user chuchuchu. I don't really believe that chinese in general are brainwashed and I certainly don't think I know anything about your country or that all I know is right. My point is that China as a country is heavily manipulating media, that is a fact there is no way around that. Censoring knowledge or opinion is only done as I explained to further an agenda. Therefore you cannot compare western media manipulation with chinese, it is like comparing a gun to a cannon. We have a free internet where anyone may say whatever they want and everyone is free to read whatever they want. That is a fact and it means arguing that we in the west are the manipulated ones is a moot point, it is true we are manipulated but we are still less manipulated then you. Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 03:08 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 02:35 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 10 2019 02:23 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 01:47 Excludos wrote:On October 10 2019 01:12 chuchuchu wrote:
All people are support freedom of speech and democracy,but Japan has a Emperor，England has a Queen，US and France dont have .The same thing looks different. I can not for the life of me guess whether this is a troll, of if he's actually brainwashed enough to think that a totalitarian regime is the same as Japan and England because they have a hyped up Emperor/Queen who are as such in name only, and doesn't actually have any real power. On October 10 2019 01:31 jy_9876543210 wrote:
Well... he's just posting whatever he had learned. The big machine doesn't care about TL forum, it's too small. He just feels that he needs to do something to help no matter how little, although the entire post sounds worse than a high school essay... You severely underestimate the Chinese troll farm. They care about your mom's Facebook posts. Similarly, the Chinese also think that you have been brainwashed by the West. You often talk about freedom of speech and democracy. But when the Chinese spoke themselves, you said that the Chinese were wrong and the Chinese shut up. You always talk about your own thoughts and negate other thoughts. The Chinese never say to the TV that the American values are wrong and the Western social thoughts are wrong. American things, Americans are the masters. I want to ask, can Europeans make their own decisions? Can the British be the masters themselves? I talk about Japan and the United Kingdom. If you think that countries like Japan and the United States are the same, I hope that you can learn more about Japanese society. For example, people who committed suicide because of the emperor's abdication. I talked about Japan and the United Kingdom because, like other countries, they are democratic and free, even with emperors and queens. Similarly, the Chinese believe that they are also democratic and free, even if it does not seem to be at all. But the truth is this. The British can't vote for the Queen. The Japanese can't decide the Emperor. On the contrary, the Japanese Emperor has great influence. Although the Japanese often deny this political issue, Japan's political arena is still a political continuation from the Meiji Restoration before World War II. Think about the Shinzo Abe family. Instead of ridiculing China’s autocracy, is it also ridiculing Japan’s autocracy. I don't think anyone has ridiculed President Bush. I mean two President Bush. I want to give an example. I don't know if you can understand. In the last US election, although more than half of the people supported Hillary, Trump was still elected to the US president because the state voted more. One person, becoming the president of a country, even if he is only supported by half of the people. Is this democracy? Is this half the tyranny of the other half? Should the United States be divided into two countries, is Hillary and Trump half? In addition, I really like Trump's make America great gain, but I remember that if there were any mistakes, there were many parades in the United States, and irony, against Teplang's words. Is this the embodiment of democracy and freedom of speech? It doesn't matter if brainwashed people believe they are not brainwashed. If Chinese people believe they are not being manipulated they are simply manipulated into believing the are not manipulated. Ironic isn't it. It is simple the people/organizations that try to limit knowledge and freedom of speech always do that because they have an agenda. Having an agenda means they want to control what you know because if they succeed in controlling what you know then they also by extension control what you believe. China claiming that foreign news outlets are lying are simply another step in controling what the chinese people believe, because if only chinese news are regarded as trustworthy they control what you believe which means they control you. All governments wants to do this to everyone, manipulation is simply what everyone does. However if you censor the internet and censor news and information you don't like then we live in a totalitarian state, like China. From wiki: "Mainland Chinese Internet censorship programs have censored Web sites that include (among other things):[citation needed] Web sites belonging to "outlawed" or suppressed groups, such as pro-democracy activists and Falun Gong. News sources that often cover topics that are considered defamatory against China, such as police brutality, the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests, freedom of speech, and democracy.[64] These sites include Voice of America and the Chinese edition of BBC News.Sites related to the Taiwanese government, media, or other organizations, including sites dedicated to religious content, and most large Taiwanese community websites or blogs. Web sites that contain anything the Chinese authorities regard as obscenity or pornography. Web sites relating to criminal activity. Sites linked with the Dalai Lama, his teachings or the International Tibet Independence Movement. Most blogging sites experience frequent or permanent outages. Web sites deemed as subversive. Other topics censored include: 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests, Xinjiang re-education camps, Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China, and more." I don't want to talk about these issues, because your approach is not through personal experience, but the Western media. I can simply say a few things. You can go and find out, maybe there is a deeper feeling. 1. Falun Gong preaches that they can acquire the same abilities as Superman. They are basically seriously ill, and they don’t have to go to the hospital. They must respect the Lord as their father, obey all commands, and basically self-immolation. I have an uncle, because he have practiced Falun Gong and he was ridiculed by everyone around me. It is true that it is unbelievable that because of socialism, the Chinese are more convinced of science. 2. The problem of Tibet, the territorial issue need not be said more. The primitive religion of Tibet was ruled in Tibet. At that time, the Chinese Communist Party’s army hoped to peacefully reunite Tibet. However, they found that Tibetan religion actually practiced slavery. Tibet’s situation is like Leo. Pod II is like his Congolese Free State. Of course you see a kindly exile, telling you some mysterious oriental religious thoughts, but he never told you that he used to be a slave owner, using the religious utensils of the human skin, and the things like the sister drum. I hope that you will not be afraid at night. You can also check Mao Zedong's position in Tibet. You may not believe it. He is considered to be a generation of Tibetan religious leaders (there are paper documents, museums I see). 3. Organ problems. China is not a country that is always complete, or even a relatively complete law. We are working hard, but I think that China, which was chaotic years ago, is developing too fast, so we often say that we used In less than 30 years, it has gone through hundreds of years of Western history, and modern civilization and primitive agricultural civilization coexist. If you are curious, in the public network search, sell your kidneys to buy Apple mobile news, you may understand that organ problems are not government manipulation, but the product of low education, unsound laws, and chaotic times. It’s gone now, because everything has changed. The Chinese government does not need to buy and sell organs to make money. This is very naive. Do you think China is authoritarian? Only the government needs a word, where to buy and sell organs. 4, Beijing 1989, you can go to Wikipedia to see, because I also saw where, from a person who accepts Chinese culture, I will not believe that: I can not die, they can bleed, but I am going to the United States . There are also the same experiencers who said that the massacre did not exist. But does it exist? You can search for the complete video of the tank, which is the video of the person being taken away after the circumvention. You can also search for photos of some police and soldiers being burned on the flyover. It is true that they have treated people with restraint, but unfortunately people sometimes do not treat them with restraint, just like Hong Kong now. I'm sorry but I don't care. The issues you describe above are topics that the Chinese government censor, either A) You have researched sources that are banned in your country and thus learned truths that your government wants to hide from you. Or B) You are writing the information that the Chinese goverment are feeding you while at the same time saying that it is not allowed to fact check this information. So either you have broken your countries rules and gone out of your way to research what you are not allowed to research, which in and of itself is proof that you don't agree with the rules of your country. Or you are just ignorantly repeating the drivel spoonfed to your by the government.
Obviously, I am now active in the same environment as you. I don't know where we both have information asymmetry, or if you are serving the UK or the CIA, so you know something that won't be known to the public.
You are using a limited amount of things you see in the Western media (in fact, most, not all) to question a person who has personal experience while living in China and the West, one that has access to almost all information networks (China) The network administrator is not scary for 20 years. At least I have downloaded some Japanese movies in the last 10 years, so you can imagine what we can find on the Chinese network.)
So what you see, in the media or on the internet, I have seen it. If you claim that you have more information than me.
I can only think that it is like Marco Polo who once thought China is the country of gold.
And because there is something about China, so many Chinese are very interested in it, even when they are discussing with their parents, like a legendary novel.
However, he failed to launch a new Crusade through this statement (whether Westerners like the Eastern Expedition or launch a global war, this is a humorous ridicule, I hope you can understand and respect my values)
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Northern Ireland24511 Posts
On October 10 2019 03:36 CxWiLL wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 03:12 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 10 2019 03:03 CxWiLL wrote:On October 10 2019 02:35 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 10 2019 02:23 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 01:47 Excludos wrote:On October 10 2019 01:12 chuchuchu wrote:
All people are support freedom of speech and democracy,but Japan has a Emperor，England has a Queen，US and France dont have .The same thing looks different. I can not for the life of me guess whether this is a troll, of if he's actually brainwashed enough to think that a totalitarian regime is the same as Japan and England because they have a hyped up Emperor/Queen who are as such in name only, and doesn't actually have any real power. On October 10 2019 01:31 jy_9876543210 wrote:
Well... he's just posting whatever he had learned. The big machine doesn't care about TL forum, it's too small. He just feels that he needs to do something to help no matter how little, although the entire post sounds worse than a high school essay... You severely underestimate the Chinese troll farm. They care about your mom's Facebook posts. Similarly, the Chinese also think that you have been brainwashed by the West. You often talk about freedom of speech and democracy. But when the Chinese spoke themselves, you said that the Chinese were wrong and the Chinese shut up. You always talk about your own thoughts and negate other thoughts. The Chinese never say to the TV that the American values are wrong and the Western social thoughts are wrong. American things, Americans are the masters. I want to ask, can Europeans make their own decisions? Can the British be the masters themselves? I talk about Japan and the United Kingdom. If you think that countries like Japan and the United States are the same, I hope that you can learn more about Japanese society. For example, people who committed suicide because of the emperor's abdication. I talked about Japan and the United Kingdom because, like other countries, they are democratic and free, even with emperors and queens. Similarly, the Chinese believe that they are also democratic and free, even if it does not seem to be at all. But the truth is this. The British can't vote for the Queen. The Japanese can't decide the Emperor. On the contrary, the Japanese Emperor has great influence. Although the Japanese often deny this political issue, Japan's political arena is still a political continuation from the Meiji Restoration before World War II. Think about the Shinzo Abe family. Instead of ridiculing China’s autocracy, is it also ridiculing Japan’s autocracy. I don't think anyone has ridiculed President Bush. I mean two President Bush. I want to give an example. I don't know if you can understand. In the last US election, although more than half of the people supported Hillary, Trump was still elected to the US president because the state voted more. One person, becoming the president of a country, even if he is only supported by half of the people. Is this democracy? Is this half the tyranny of the other half? Should the United States be divided into two countries, is Hillary and Trump half? In addition, I really like Trump's make America great gain, but I remember that if there were any mistakes, there were many parades in the United States, and irony, against Teplang's words. Is this the embodiment of democracy and freedom of speech? It doesn't matter if brainwashed people believe they are not brainwashed. If Chinese people believe they are not being manipulated they are simply manipulated into believing the are not manipulated. Ironic isn't it. It is simple the people/organizations that try to limit knowledge and freedom of speech always do that because they have an agenda. Having an agenda means they want to control what you know because if they succeed in controlling what you know then they also by extension control what you believe. China claiming that foreign news outlets are lying are simply another step in controling what the chinese people believe, because if only chinese news are regarded as trustworthy they control what you believe which means they control you. All governments wants to do this to everyone, manipulation is simply what everyone does. However if you censor the internet and censor news and information you don't like then we live in a totalitarian state, like China. From wiki: "Mainland Chinese Internet censorship programs have censored Web sites that include (among other things):[citation needed] Web sites belonging to "outlawed" or suppressed groups, such as pro-democracy activists and Falun Gong. News sources that often cover topics that are considered defamatory against China, such as police brutality, the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests, freedom of speech, and democracy.[64] These sites include Voice of America and the Chinese edition of BBC News.Sites related to the Taiwanese government, media, or other organizations, including sites dedicated to religious content, and most large Taiwanese community websites or blogs. Web sites that contain anything the Chinese authorities regard as obscenity or pornography. Web sites relating to criminal activity. Sites linked with the Dalai Lama, his teachings or the International Tibet Independence Movement. Most blogging sites experience frequent or permanent outages. Web sites deemed as subversive. Other topics censored include: 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests, Xinjiang re-education camps, Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China, and more." Another Chinese are brainwashed and CCP is evil post, yet again. So you boldly claim that Chinese are so brainwashed they don't even know they are brainwashed. How do you know you are in a safe place where all of your informations from western media (especially wiki, which most Chinese people won't read and edit) are all correct fact and neutral. It is just hilarious to see the people live outside of China and never visited China consider themselves more knowlegable about China than people actually living there, by only watching a few video clip and reading some poorly-based reports. I don’t particularly like the word brainwashed, as it infers negative connotations to the recipient, be it a lack of critical faculties or whatever. I really don’t think it’s arguable that Westerners have more open access to information than Chinese people. It’s not hearsay or some misconception it just absolutely the case. The two media spheres are not at all equivalent. In the West there is a veritable fuckton of bullshit out there, and people trying to convince people to lean in a certain direction, absolutely. But these entities are all in competition for the hearts and minds of people in our area of the world, and a discerning person can sift through and make up their own minds. In China, there is one real arbiter on information that has particular goals, and people do not have (easy) access to information outside of those parameters. I, as a Chinese, have stay in the states for almost 10 years. And I believe I have access to both voices from inside and outside of China. The problem is that the media power gap is so huge that western people simply won't listen to other voices, or even simply consider they are wrong. Because they think they already know everything. Just as I have said, it is simply hilarious if you think you know China better than a Chinese. Even with the block, most Chinese people find their access to the information they need, a free proxy network is not that hard to find in China.
That’s really not the claim though, my claim was that China restricts information, not that I know more about China than a native.
Western companies have actively assisted in the development of these very mechanisms to restrict access to information,
I’m extremely skeptical that ‘just use a VPN’ actually works across a large population either in terms of ‘most can find the information they need’.
1. You have to actively know vaguely what forbidden information you’re actually looking for in the first place.
2. You have to use a VPN in the first place.
Now, from my experience in where I’m from, people are not particularly tech savvy at all, in the majority. The vast majority of people I’ve ever met over the age of 35/40 who don’t work in an IT field can basically use a smartphone and that’s about it.
China may be different and everyone knows what a VPN is and has one, I would be somewhat skeptical that that’s the case.
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On October 10 2019 03:51 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 03:36 CxWiLL wrote:On October 10 2019 03:12 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 10 2019 03:03 CxWiLL wrote:On October 10 2019 02:35 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 10 2019 02:23 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 01:47 Excludos wrote:On October 10 2019 01:12 chuchuchu wrote:
All people are support freedom of speech and democracy,but Japan has a Emperor，England has a Queen，US and France dont have .The same thing looks different. I can not for the life of me guess whether this is a troll, of if he's actually brainwashed enough to think that a totalitarian regime is the same as Japan and England because they have a hyped up Emperor/Queen who are as such in name only, and doesn't actually have any real power. On October 10 2019 01:31 jy_9876543210 wrote:
Well... he's just posting whatever he had learned. The big machine doesn't care about TL forum, it's too small. He just feels that he needs to do something to help no matter how little, although the entire post sounds worse than a high school essay... You severely underestimate the Chinese troll farm. They care about your mom's Facebook posts. Similarly, the Chinese also think that you have been brainwashed by the West. You often talk about freedom of speech and democracy. But when the Chinese spoke themselves, you said that the Chinese were wrong and the Chinese shut up. You always talk about your own thoughts and negate other thoughts. The Chinese never say to the TV that the American values are wrong and the Western social thoughts are wrong. American things, Americans are the masters. I want to ask, can Europeans make their own decisions? Can the British be the masters themselves? I talk about Japan and the United Kingdom. If you think that countries like Japan and the United States are the same, I hope that you can learn more about Japanese society. For example, people who committed suicide because of the emperor's abdication. I talked about Japan and the United Kingdom because, like other countries, they are democratic and free, even with emperors and queens. Similarly, the Chinese believe that they are also democratic and free, even if it does not seem to be at all. But the truth is this. The British can't vote for the Queen. The Japanese can't decide the Emperor. On the contrary, the Japanese Emperor has great influence. Although the Japanese often deny this political issue, Japan's political arena is still a political continuation from the Meiji Restoration before World War II. Think about the Shinzo Abe family. Instead of ridiculing China’s autocracy, is it also ridiculing Japan’s autocracy. I don't think anyone has ridiculed President Bush. I mean two President Bush. I want to give an example. I don't know if you can understand. In the last US election, although more than half of the people supported Hillary, Trump was still elected to the US president because the state voted more. One person, becoming the president of a country, even if he is only supported by half of the people. Is this democracy? Is this half the tyranny of the other half? Should the United States be divided into two countries, is Hillary and Trump half? In addition, I really like Trump's make America great gain, but I remember that if there were any mistakes, there were many parades in the United States, and irony, against Teplang's words. Is this the embodiment of democracy and freedom of speech? It doesn't matter if brainwashed people believe they are not brainwashed. If Chinese people believe they are not being manipulated they are simply manipulated into believing the are not manipulated. Ironic isn't it. It is simple the people/organizations that try to limit knowledge and freedom of speech always do that because they have an agenda. Having an agenda means they want to control what you know because if they succeed in controlling what you know then they also by extension control what you believe. China claiming that foreign news outlets are lying are simply another step in controling what the chinese people believe, because if only chinese news are regarded as trustworthy they control what you believe which means they control you. All governments wants to do this to everyone, manipulation is simply what everyone does. However if you censor the internet and censor news and information you don't like then we live in a totalitarian state, like China. From wiki: "Mainland Chinese Internet censorship programs have censored Web sites that include (among other things):[citation needed] Web sites belonging to "outlawed" or suppressed groups, such as pro-democracy activists and Falun Gong. News sources that often cover topics that are considered defamatory against China, such as police brutality, the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests, freedom of speech, and democracy.[64] These sites include Voice of America and the Chinese edition of BBC News.Sites related to the Taiwanese government, media, or other organizations, including sites dedicated to religious content, and most large Taiwanese community websites or blogs. Web sites that contain anything the Chinese authorities regard as obscenity or pornography. Web sites relating to criminal activity. Sites linked with the Dalai Lama, his teachings or the International Tibet Independence Movement. Most blogging sites experience frequent or permanent outages. Web sites deemed as subversive. Other topics censored include: 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests, Xinjiang re-education camps, Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China, and more." Another Chinese are brainwashed and CCP is evil post, yet again. So you boldly claim that Chinese are so brainwashed they don't even know they are brainwashed. How do you know you are in a safe place where all of your informations from western media (especially wiki, which most Chinese people won't read and edit) are all correct fact and neutral. It is just hilarious to see the people live outside of China and never visited China consider themselves more knowlegable about China than people actually living there, by only watching a few video clip and reading some poorly-based reports. I don’t particularly like the word brainwashed, as it infers negative connotations to the recipient, be it a lack of critical faculties or whatever. I really don’t think it’s arguable that Westerners have more open access to information than Chinese people. It’s not hearsay or some misconception it just absolutely the case. The two media spheres are not at all equivalent. In the West there is a veritable fuckton of bullshit out there, and people trying to convince people to lean in a certain direction, absolutely. But these entities are all in competition for the hearts and minds of people in our area of the world, and a discerning person can sift through and make up their own minds. In China, there is one real arbiter on information that has particular goals, and people do not have (easy) access to information outside of those parameters. I, as a Chinese, have stay in the states for almost 10 years. And I believe I have access to both voices from inside and outside of China. The problem is that the media power gap is so huge that western people simply won't listen to other voices, or even simply consider they are wrong. Because they think they already know everything. Just as I have said, it is simply hilarious if you think you know China better than a Chinese. Even with the block, most Chinese people find their access to the information they need, a free proxy network is not that hard to find in China. That’s really not the claim though, my claim was that China restricts information, not that I know more about China than a native. Western companies have actively assisted in the development of these very mechanisms to restrict access to information, I’m extremely skeptical that ‘just use a VPN’ actually works across a large population either in terms of ‘most can find the information they need’. 1. You have to actively know vaguely what forbidden information you’re actually looking for in the first place. 2. You have to use a VPN in the first place. Now, from my experience in where I’m from, people are not particularly tech savvy at all, in the majority. The vast majority of people I’ve ever met over the age of 35/40 who don’t work in an IT field can basically use a smartphone and that’s about it. China may be different and everyone knows what a VPN is and has one, I would be somewhat skeptical that that’s the case.
Well... I'm pretty sure many college boys finds a way to bypass the GFW, since that's the only way to find porn website... although it's illegal to do so. Both of them.
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On October 10 2019 02:46 chuchuchu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 02:13 Excludos wrote:On October 10 2019 02:04 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 01:44 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 10 2019 01:28 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 01:21 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 10 2019 01:04 Spirit_HUN wrote:
When this player signed up for that tournament, he accepted the rules.
He simply broke the rules, ended up banning himself.
Blizzard did the right thing. This is a video game company, not a political platform.
If you are concerned about human rights in Hong Kong the are other ways, platforms to do that.
You should not force a video game company to be political.
There are no political comments in the Olympics, Football, Formula1 etc. as well.
I dont want video games, sports events to be filled with politics. Viewers are there to be entertained, competitors are there to compete, and not to be forced to eat political bs 0-24. They’re not a political platform, but they do have a clear political position here which is tow whatever line the Chinese authorities want them to tow. Seems to me it was a pretty good platform for the guy to use really, although the attention it gained was more from Blizzard’s reaction than his actions specifically. Gained a fuckload of traction even US Senators are wading in, doubt he’d have been able to elicit such a response with a tweet. China and especially the Gulf States use sport as an extension of their soft power, they’ve made it political already, likewise the Cold War saw sporting events like the Olympics as an ideological battleground. if it is not an political extension of soft power,why some officials of the organization are talking about politics？if not,STOP talking.As an official, you can't blatantly confront the Chinese public opinion while thinking that discrimination against Chinese people, Chinese culture and support separatism and violence. Why not? National self-determination is a key principle of geopolitics in the modern era. Considering a bomb blew in the windows of my house when I was but a babe, I’m quite happy that the United States interceded and helped facilitate a peace here that respected both of the national identities in our wee country. I would personally like to see more of China and its culture emerge onto the world stage, an old and venerable culture indeed, whose people have accomplished remarkable things in the last few decades especially. If it’s by trampling on everyone and expecting Westerners to bend to their whims and where criticism is construed as a grievous insult then, no thanks. When you think so, have you ever asked about the thoughts of ordinary Chinese?. I hope you understand that while this is an interesting conversation, your views are inherently skewed by the propaganda you've been fed every day. We know how the Chinese media works (and it's not just China btw. America has much of the same problems, and most of us here do recognise it as such). You have already made made several false statements and made comparisons that does not make sense (Comparing China to England because England has a mock Queen for instance). As such everything you say will be taken with the biggest grain of salt imaginable I do think it's interesting what the ordinary Chinese thinks, but it truthfully doesn't matter. You don't get to commit human rights violations and consider it ok because "The ordinary Chinese thinks so". Guess who doesn't think it's ok? Hong Kong and its citizens. Very interesting, wrong comparison I just want to show that some forms of democracy and freedom will change, just as discrimination against blacks is definitely not one of freedom of speech in the United States. Although Martin Luther King was killed. Similarly, China's democracy and freedom are not so much the same as the United States, because the so-called autocracy and dictator seem to be like the Queen of England and the Emperor of Japan. And when you talk about it, we should think about Hong Kong and its citizens. I am very eager to ask, do you know how many Hong Kong people participated in this Chinese National Day celebration? Including young people, college students, government officials, police, famous stars, and ordinary people. Do you think we should think about Hong Kong people, then do you know how many people in Hong Kong support the police parade? The police in Hong Kong, the government in Hong Kong, Hong Kong, so many condemns the violent protesters, and the ordinary people, shouting at the bbc reporters, this is Hong Kong, China, the taxi driver who supports the law revision, isn't it Hong Kong? What you see seems to be the collective public opinion of Hong Kong, actually because those people have amplified this reaction through radical methods. Think about it, if it is really a problem of the society and the Chinese government, the Hong Kong government, the ordinary people of Hong Kong (Is it not ordinary people and the grassroots officials?) Are these attitudes still not showing anything? Think about how good the credibility of the Hong Kong government is, and the same group of people are not trusted now. The vast majority of protesters on the streets of Hong Kong are college students, young people, and young unemployed people. Is this a normal antibody or a collective carnival of young people, like an American youth who likes to take drugs? China has experienced two very painful students, and the young people have dominated the political violent protests, almost smashing the entire country. However, these protests did not make more than a billion people ignorant, and the ordinary Chinese who were at a loss knew how to live well. The Chinese have supported all the legal acts of Hong Kong and have wanted to split China and Hong Kong for many years. There is nothing too fierce. We support Hong Kong, support democracy, support freedom, and even to some extent, support universal suffrage in Hong Kong. However, what you have to understand is what is the slogan of Hong Kong's independence and violence? This is what the Hong Kong player and the NBA rocket manager said. This is also why the Chinese currently call it a terrorist, because terrorists in the Middle East often call themselves freedom fighters. If Hong Kong, China, is not dominated by the majority of Chinese people and by the majority of Hong Kong people, then who will decide? Can Texas and California declare independence today and expel all blacks and people from other states？ So，why China give up HK？and Violent protestors demanding the expulsion of mainlanders？ In mainland China, Hong Kong people's bad reputation, sense of geographical superiority and discrimination against mainlanders are the main reasons。 (you can find it in many Hong Kong movies，In mainland China, Hong Kong people's bad reputation, sense of geographical superiority and discrimination against mainlanders are the main reasons (you can find out from many Hong Kong movies, including asking mainlanders if they have seen Apple phones made in China, and mocking the mainland for lack of high-rise power and modern technology, the same thing is still happening to Chinese people in Europe, the United States, etc.)It used to be Korea and Japan.).
You bring up valid points, but what you seem to miss out on is how this all started in the first place. There is currently a Sino-British joint declaration agreement between China and the UK dated back in 1984 and went into effect in 1997 stating that HK will have its own government, is able to pass its own laws, and that their way of life would not change for 50 years. You can read a bit on that agreement here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-British_Joint_Declaration. This means that in this agreement, China agreed that its PRC principles would not be practiced in HK until 2047.
Despite this agreement, in 2014, China proposed a reform to HK's electoral system, a clear infringement of the agreement. Since China agreed that HK could remain autonomous and have authority over their own government, then why is China screening candidates for HK's Chief Executive? This started around 2014 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests), and afterwards the British Foreign Office announced that Chinese officials now treat this declaration as void. You say China support HK's democracy, then why not let the HK'ers elect who they want, instead of screening who they want the HK people to elect? The HK'ers are upset because they were promised 50 years, but China is trying to impose only 22 years into the treaty. Does this mean China's words aren't even worth 50% of what they put on papers?
So flash forward to the current protest, how did it start? Well, China wanted to pass an extradite bill in HK, another infringement of the current agreement. HK'ers did not want this law, which they are within their own rights to deny since China agreed it will not impose, yet China still adamantly demand that this law be passed. If you look over at the 5 demands HK is currently protesting for, they are extremely reasonable given that China started this by breaking their words.
1. Full withdrawal of the extradition bill - Very valid demand, considering China signed an agreement that they will not be imposing their laws in HK until 2047. Last I checked, it's only 2019.
2. Inquiry into police brutality - Also valid, the people would like to investigate police's conduct. The police are meant to protect the people, not beat them up when they are protesting.
3. Retracting the classification of protesters as rioters - This started because China broke its words, so the people were upset and protested. Had China not broke its words, this wouldn't have happened. The people marched because China lied, not because they randomly rioted out of no where. This point can be a case by case basis with some standards since I understand not all protesters are good, some can be destructive, and we should judge them fairly.
4. Amnesty for arrested protesters - Same as point 3.
5. Dual universal suffrage, for both their Legislative and Chief Executive - Again, China signed an agreement that allows the HK'ers to manage their own government. If they are true to their words, let the HK'ers decide how they want their government to be ran.
My main point is that HK originally didn't protest for independence. This was NOT how the protest started. They started because China lied and backed out of their own words only 22 years into a 50 years signed agreement. It is only escalating because instead of admitting they were in the wrong, China cracked down on the HK citizens. HK citizens now are entertaining independence because they realized Mainland China does not keep its word. To use a Starcraft analogy, this is similar to Mengsk, Reynor, and Kerrigan working together, yet Mengsk abandoned Kerrigan on that one planet (forgot the name). When Reynor became rightfully pissed for what Mengsk did and turned on him, Mengsk called Reynor a terrorist. China is pulling a Mengsk right now.
If China is true to its words. Come back in 28 years and let the HK'ers do what they want to do with their government for now.
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On October 10 2019 03:15 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 03:10 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 02:58 Zaros wrote:
I will stop supporting Hearthstone or watching any Hearthstone content, I barely play starcraft but I do watch all the tournaments and will continue to do so for now but I will see if Blizzard has any change in policy.
I think a lot of the Chinese media/government have obviously tried to paint the protesters as terrorists and criminals but they have also tried to make it as if Hong Kong wants to be an independent country (which some do want but that is a minority) rather than having the freedoms they were guaranteed while being a part of China.
China signed an international treaty with the UK that guaranteed the rights of Hong Kong'ers for 50 years, it is blatantly breaking that treaty, there should be a bigger UK and international response. Do you support Northern Ireland independence, Scotland independence? Yes and yes, if the majority people in said areas actually desire it. As of yet, neither are the case. Although in Northern Ireland’s case it would be unifying with Ireland in some capacity that is generally proposed, not being independent as a separate nation. As a British person by descent and culture I’d be fine with a united Irish state provided there were adequate safeguards in place regarding culture etc and dual citizenship options for Brits.
Yes, we have reached a consensus that even in China it is illegal (as in the case of German Nazis is extremely serious, but not so serious elsewhere), then most people in Hong Kong support these protesters? Or do you turn a blind eye to the large-scale activities that most people work normally and support the police? The Chinese side has never been. I have never seen a protest against Hong Kong. The parade has always been a violent and independent act against a small number of people who have witnessed violent demonstrations in Hong Kong. In fact, it is easy to see that almost all protesters are masked young people. How much can these be? Or will you support K.K.K. to lead the United States?
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Northern Ireland24511 Posts
On October 10 2019 03:57 jy_9876543210 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 03:51 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 10 2019 03:36 CxWiLL wrote:On October 10 2019 03:12 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 10 2019 03:03 CxWiLL wrote:On October 10 2019 02:35 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 10 2019 02:23 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 01:47 Excludos wrote:On October 10 2019 01:12 chuchuchu wrote:
All people are support freedom of speech and democracy,but Japan has a Emperor，England has a Queen，US and France dont have .The same thing looks different. I can not for the life of me guess whether this is a troll, of if he's actually brainwashed enough to think that a totalitarian regime is the same as Japan and England because they have a hyped up Emperor/Queen who are as such in name only, and doesn't actually have any real power. On October 10 2019 01:31 jy_9876543210 wrote:
Well... he's just posting whatever he had learned. The big machine doesn't care about TL forum, it's too small. He just feels that he needs to do something to help no matter how little, although the entire post sounds worse than a high school essay... You severely underestimate the Chinese troll farm. They care about your mom's Facebook posts. Similarly, the Chinese also think that you have been brainwashed by the West. You often talk about freedom of speech and democracy. But when the Chinese spoke themselves, you said that the Chinese were wrong and the Chinese shut up. You always talk about your own thoughts and negate other thoughts. The Chinese never say to the TV that the American values are wrong and the Western social thoughts are wrong. American things, Americans are the masters. I want to ask, can Europeans make their own decisions? Can the British be the masters themselves? I talk about Japan and the United Kingdom. If you think that countries like Japan and the United States are the same, I hope that you can learn more about Japanese society. For example, people who committed suicide because of the emperor's abdication. I talked about Japan and the United Kingdom because, like other countries, they are democratic and free, even with emperors and queens. Similarly, the Chinese believe that they are also democratic and free, even if it does not seem to be at all. But the truth is this. The British can't vote for the Queen. The Japanese can't decide the Emperor. On the contrary, the Japanese Emperor has great influence. Although the Japanese often deny this political issue, Japan's political arena is still a political continuation from the Meiji Restoration before World War II. Think about the Shinzo Abe family. Instead of ridiculing China’s autocracy, is it also ridiculing Japan’s autocracy. I don't think anyone has ridiculed President Bush. I mean two President Bush. I want to give an example. I don't know if you can understand. In the last US election, although more than half of the people supported Hillary, Trump was still elected to the US president because the state voted more. One person, becoming the president of a country, even if he is only supported by half of the people. Is this democracy? Is this half the tyranny of the other half? Should the United States be divided into two countries, is Hillary and Trump half? In addition, I really like Trump's make America great gain, but I remember that if there were any mistakes, there were many parades in the United States, and irony, against Teplang's words. Is this the embodiment of democracy and freedom of speech? It doesn't matter if brainwashed people believe they are not brainwashed. If Chinese people believe they are not being manipulated they are simply manipulated into believing the are not manipulated. Ironic isn't it. It is simple the people/organizations that try to limit knowledge and freedom of speech always do that because they have an agenda. Having an agenda means they want to control what you know because if they succeed in controlling what you know then they also by extension control what you believe. China claiming that foreign news outlets are lying are simply another step in controling what the chinese people believe, because if only chinese news are regarded as trustworthy they control what you believe which means they control you. All governments wants to do this to everyone, manipulation is simply what everyone does. However if you censor the internet and censor news and information you don't like then we live in a totalitarian state, like China. From wiki: "Mainland Chinese Internet censorship programs have censored Web sites that include (among other things):[citation needed] Web sites belonging to "outlawed" or suppressed groups, such as pro-democracy activists and Falun Gong. News sources that often cover topics that are considered defamatory against China, such as police brutality, the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests, freedom of speech, and democracy.[64] These sites include Voice of America and the Chinese edition of BBC News.Sites related to the Taiwanese government, media, or other organizations, including sites dedicated to religious content, and most large Taiwanese community websites or blogs. Web sites that contain anything the Chinese authorities regard as obscenity or pornography. Web sites relating to criminal activity. Sites linked with the Dalai Lama, his teachings or the International Tibet Independence Movement. Most blogging sites experience frequent or permanent outages. Web sites deemed as subversive. Other topics censored include: 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests, Xinjiang re-education camps, Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China, and more." Another Chinese are brainwashed and CCP is evil post, yet again. So you boldly claim that Chinese are so brainwashed they don't even know they are brainwashed. How do you know you are in a safe place where all of your informations from western media (especially wiki, which most Chinese people won't read and edit) are all correct fact and neutral. It is just hilarious to see the people live outside of China and never visited China consider themselves more knowlegable about China than people actually living there, by only watching a few video clip and reading some poorly-based reports. I don’t particularly like the word brainwashed, as it infers negative connotations to the recipient, be it a lack of critical faculties or whatever. I really don’t think it’s arguable that Westerners have more open access to information than Chinese people. It’s not hearsay or some misconception it just absolutely the case. The two media spheres are not at all equivalent. In the West there is a veritable fuckton of bullshit out there, and people trying to convince people to lean in a certain direction, absolutely. But these entities are all in competition for the hearts and minds of people in our area of the world, and a discerning person can sift through and make up their own minds. In China, there is one real arbiter on information that has particular goals, and people do not have (easy) access to information outside of those parameters. I, as a Chinese, have stay in the states for almost 10 years. And I believe I have access to both voices from inside and outside of China. The problem is that the media power gap is so huge that western people simply won't listen to other voices, or even simply consider they are wrong. Because they think they already know everything. Just as I have said, it is simply hilarious if you think you know China better than a Chinese. Even with the block, most Chinese people find their access to the information they need, a free proxy network is not that hard to find in China. That’s really not the claim though, my claim was that China restricts information, not that I know more about China than a native. Western companies have actively assisted in the development of these very mechanisms to restrict access to information, I’m extremely skeptical that ‘just use a VPN’ actually works across a large population either in terms of ‘most can find the information they need’. 1. You have to actively know vaguely what forbidden information you’re actually looking for in the first place. 2. You have to use a VPN in the first place. Now, from my experience in where I’m from, people are not particularly tech savvy at all, in the majority. The vast majority of people I’ve ever met over the age of 35/40 who don’t work in an IT field can basically use a smartphone and that’s about it. China may be different and everyone knows what a VPN is and has one, I would be somewhat skeptical that that’s the case. Well... I'm pretty sure many college boys finds a way to bypass the GFW, since that's the only way to find porn website.
How many is that?
There are absolutely ways around such things, but they require at least a degree of tech savvy, and a desire to do so.
And if one is bypassing filters to watch some high quality fucking it doesn’t necessarily follow that they’re going to be motivated to seek out alternative sources of news.
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Northern Ireland24511 Posts
On October 10 2019 04:00 chuchuchu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 03:15 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 10 2019 03:10 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 02:58 Zaros wrote:
I will stop supporting Hearthstone or watching any Hearthstone content, I barely play starcraft but I do watch all the tournaments and will continue to do so for now but I will see if Blizzard has any change in policy.
I think a lot of the Chinese media/government have obviously tried to paint the protesters as terrorists and criminals but they have also tried to make it as if Hong Kong wants to be an independent country (which some do want but that is a minority) rather than having the freedoms they were guaranteed while being a part of China.
China signed an international treaty with the UK that guaranteed the rights of Hong Kong'ers for 50 years, it is blatantly breaking that treaty, there should be a bigger UK and international response. Do you support Northern Ireland independence, Scotland independence? Yes and yes, if the majority people in said areas actually desire it. As of yet, neither are the case. Although in Northern Ireland’s case it would be unifying with Ireland in some capacity that is generally proposed, not being independent as a separate nation. As a British person by descent and culture I’d be fine with a united Irish state provided there were adequate safeguards in place regarding culture etc and dual citizenship options for Brits. Yes, we have reached a consensus that even in China it is illegal (as in the case of German Nazis is extremely serious, but not so serious elsewhere), then most people in Hong Kong support these protesters? Or do you turn a blind eye to the large-scale activities that most people work normally and support the police? The Chinese side has never been. I have never seen a protest against Hong Kong. The parade has always been a violent and independent act against a small number of people who have witnessed violent demonstrations in Hong Kong. In fact, it is easy to see that almost all protesters are masked young people. How much can these be? Or will you support K.K.K. to lead the United States?
This is the nature of all protests, they’re almost always by their nature lead by a minority, because of the risks involved and because many people want to just get on with their daily lives.
They were not violent to begin with, if they completely lacked the capacity for wider support the police would not have cracked down on them with the force that they have.
The KKK is a bad example, Martin Luther King and the Civil Rights movement did not have the kind of popular support that people assume they did now looking back, but history has validated that movement as being just.
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Chapter 5 of the Olympic charter states “no kind of demonstration or political, religious or racial propaganda is permitted in any Olympic sites, venues or other areas.” The ostensible purpose of that rule is to allow for the huge global sporting event to bring people together, without fear of discrimination or of political upset. The Olympics is meant to be a blank slate where all the participant countries are united as one. E-sports should be the same.
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On October 10 2019 04:00 chuchuchu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 03:15 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 10 2019 03:10 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 02:58 Zaros wrote:
I will stop supporting Hearthstone or watching any Hearthstone content, I barely play starcraft but I do watch all the tournaments and will continue to do so for now but I will see if Blizzard has any change in policy.
I think a lot of the Chinese media/government have obviously tried to paint the protesters as terrorists and criminals but they have also tried to make it as if Hong Kong wants to be an independent country (which some do want but that is a minority) rather than having the freedoms they were guaranteed while being a part of China.
China signed an international treaty with the UK that guaranteed the rights of Hong Kong'ers for 50 years, it is blatantly breaking that treaty, there should be a bigger UK and international response. Do you support Northern Ireland independence, Scotland independence? Yes and yes, if the majority people in said areas actually desire it. As of yet, neither are the case. Although in Northern Ireland’s case it would be unifying with Ireland in some capacity that is generally proposed, not being independent as a separate nation. As a British person by descent and culture I’d be fine with a united Irish state provided there were adequate safeguards in place regarding culture etc and dual citizenship options for Brits. Yes, we have reached a consensus that even in China it is illegal (as in the case of German Nazis is extremely serious, but not so serious elsewhere), then most people in Hong Kong support these protesters? Or do you turn a blind eye to the large-scale activities that most people work normally and support the police? The Chinese side has never been. I have never seen a protest against Hong Kong. The parade has always been a violent and independent act against a small number of people who have witnessed violent demonstrations in Hong Kong. In fact, it is easy to see that almost all protesters are masked young people. How much can these be? Or will you support K.K.K. to lead the United States?
A: Why would the Chinese people protest against Hong Kong when you are the ones imposing on Hong Kong? The bully doesn't run to the teacher to tell them about the victim.
B: The parade wasn't always violent, that's a blatant lie. Please stop doing that. it only turned as such recently.
C: Again, I must stress, no one cares what the police or China is saying, because their actions are carrying their weight. Whoever these "normal people who work normally and support the police" are, they are supporting oppression and violence.
D: I'm noticing that you are dodging all questions related to 1989 Tiananmen square. Is that you being dishonest in your discussion, or is it simply crashing against your worldview to the point where you refuse to to entertain its existence?
On October 10 2019 04:07 foveon wrote:
Chapter 5 of the Olympic charter states “no kind of demonstration or political, religious or racial propaganda is permitted in any Olympic sites, venues or other areas.” The ostensible purpose of that rule is to allow for the huge global sporting event to bring people together, without fear of discrimination or of political upset. The Olympics is meant to be a blank slate where all the participant countries are united as one. E-sports should be the same.
Someone needs to look up the "1968 Olympics Black Power salute", and how it's now a historic event.
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On October 10 2019 04:00 chuchuchu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 03:15 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 10 2019 03:10 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 02:58 Zaros wrote:
I will stop supporting Hearthstone or watching any Hearthstone content, I barely play starcraft but I do watch all the tournaments and will continue to do so for now but I will see if Blizzard has any change in policy.
I think a lot of the Chinese media/government have obviously tried to paint the protesters as terrorists and criminals but they have also tried to make it as if Hong Kong wants to be an independent country (which some do want but that is a minority) rather than having the freedoms they were guaranteed while being a part of China.
China signed an international treaty with the UK that guaranteed the rights of Hong Kong'ers for 50 years, it is blatantly breaking that treaty, there should be a bigger UK and international response. Do you support Northern Ireland independence, Scotland independence? Yes and yes, if the majority people in said areas actually desire it. As of yet, neither are the case. Although in Northern Ireland’s case it would be unifying with Ireland in some capacity that is generally proposed, not being independent as a separate nation. As a British person by descent and culture I’d be fine with a united Irish state provided there were adequate safeguards in place regarding culture etc and dual citizenship options for Brits. Yes, we have reached a consensus that even in China it is illegal (as in the case of German Nazis is extremely serious, but not so serious elsewhere), then most people in Hong Kong support these protesters? Or do you turn a blind eye to the large-scale activities that most people work normally and support the police? The Chinese side has never been. I have never seen a protest against Hong Kong. The parade has always been a violent and independent act against a small number of people who have witnessed violent demonstrations in Hong Kong. In fact, it is easy to see that almost all protesters are masked young people. How much can these be? Or will you support K.K.K. to lead the United States?
First of all, do you even know when did the parade begin, where did it occur, how many are there, and for what reason? Surely you know that nobody wore masks in the beginning, right? Or did you just search about it today and can only find recent news reports?
Based on your poor english I wonder if you know what key words you should search.
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On October 10 2019 04:09 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 04:00 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 03:15 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 10 2019 03:10 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 02:58 Zaros wrote:
I will stop supporting Hearthstone or watching any Hearthstone content, I barely play starcraft but I do watch all the tournaments and will continue to do so for now but I will see if Blizzard has any change in policy.
I think a lot of the Chinese media/government have obviously tried to paint the protesters as terrorists and criminals but they have also tried to make it as if Hong Kong wants to be an independent country (which some do want but that is a minority) rather than having the freedoms they were guaranteed while being a part of China.
China signed an international treaty with the UK that guaranteed the rights of Hong Kong'ers for 50 years, it is blatantly breaking that treaty, there should be a bigger UK and international response. Do you support Northern Ireland independence, Scotland independence? Yes and yes, if the majority people in said areas actually desire it. As of yet, neither are the case. Although in Northern Ireland’s case it would be unifying with Ireland in some capacity that is generally proposed, not being independent as a separate nation. As a British person by descent and culture I’d be fine with a united Irish state provided there were adequate safeguards in place regarding culture etc and dual citizenship options for Brits. Yes, we have reached a consensus that even in China it is illegal (as in the case of German Nazis is extremely serious, but not so serious elsewhere), then most people in Hong Kong support these protesters? Or do you turn a blind eye to the large-scale activities that most people work normally and support the police? The Chinese side has never been. I have never seen a protest against Hong Kong. The parade has always been a violent and independent act against a small number of people who have witnessed violent demonstrations in Hong Kong. In fact, it is easy to see that almost all protesters are masked young people. How much can these be? Or will you support K.K.K. to lead the United States? C: Again, I must stress, no one cares what the police or China is saying, because their actions are carrying their weight. Whoever these "normal people who work normally and support the police" are, they are supporting oppression and violence.
I think the problem is that they don't think it's a lie. Chinese media has been demonizing the protesters since the beginning, so the person you're arguing with might legitimately believe what they are saying is fact.
I ask again to the pro-Chinese in this thread: What happened in Tienanmen Square in 1989? Do you support what happened?
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EPT
