I would like to discuss this here, since this is a Blizzard related topic and probably lets emerge not only HearthStone specific questions. Since there is no "general esports" forum on TL I post this here - Sorry if this belongs somewhere else.
Engaging in any act that, in Blizzard’s sole discretion, brings you into public disrepute, offends a portion or group of the public, or otherwise damages Blizzard image will result in removal from Grandmasters and reduction of the player’s prize total to $0 USD, in addition to other remedies which may be provided for under the Handbook and Blizzard’s Website Terms.
Some employees of Blizz showed their protest by covering "Think Globally" and "Every Voice Matters" on the values compass at Blizz' outside campus:
Former Liquid's Jinro supports the appeal to boycott Blizzard until they withdraw from their decision.
I am e-upset. To spite them, I will take up bandwidth space by playing Diablo 3 Immortals when it comes out but will not spend any money on it. Since this is so close to Blizzcon, this is an interesting time for the backlash and I am excited to see what the crowd will chant during announcements. As always, let's voice our concerns but don't resort to violence guys. Blizzard employees are still real people and while many of us may think Blizzard as a company sucks, most of the employees have no say in the matter and are just trying to work and support themselves and their family.
The winner for this are definitely the HK'ers, who are getting way more coverage now than they did for the past few months. Also, the meme game has been on point. Keep them coming lol.
Blizzard's party, Blizzard's rules. And well deserved for him IMO, mixing up sports and politics is rightfully frowned upon. Just imagine a Boer player making some "free south africa" statement...
Heyo, I know this is a sensitive topic that's burning up the gaming-internet at the moment, but TL's standards of posting still apply here. No meme-only posts, no 'low-content' posts, be civil when replying to fellow TL.net users, etc.
On October 09 2019 15:13 Haukinger wrote: Blizzard's party, Blizzard's rules. And well deserved for him IMO, mixing up sports and politics is rightfully frowned upon. Just imagine a Boer player making some "free south africa" statement...
Sure, but nobody's going to go to their parties anymore.
You say mixing up sports and politics is frowned upon, yet, Blizzard is allowed to be as political as they want. Do you know that in the Overwatch league the Taiwanese team isn't called Taiwan but "Chinese Taipei" and the players are not allowed to even use their own country's flag because Blizzard want to kiss up to China to enter their market, and China thinks Taiwan is still their territory. This shit has to stop.
On October 09 2019 15:19 abuse wrote: You say mixing up sports and politics is frowned upon, yet, Blizzard is allowed to be as political as they want. Do you know that in the Overwatch league the Taiwanese team isn't called Taiwan but "Chinese Taipei" and the players are not allowed to even use their own country's flag because Blizzard doesn't want to kiss up to China to enter their market, and China thinks Taiwan is still their territory.
And south tirolean athletes are forced to compete under the italian flag, and there's the organizer's egalitarian ads in soccer matches and so on. Of course, sports are used for political agitation, but that doesn't make adding to it less bad.
On October 09 2019 15:19 abuse wrote: You say mixing up sports and politics is frowned upon, yet, Blizzard is allowed to be as political as they want. Do you know that in the Overwatch league the Taiwanese team isn't called Taiwan but "Chinese Taipei" and the players are not allowed to even use their own country's flag because Blizzard doesn't want to kiss up to China to enter their market, and China thinks Taiwan is still their territory.
And south tirolean athletes are forced to compete under the italian flag, and there's the organizer's egalitarian ads in soccer matches and so on. Of course, sports are used for political agitation, but that doesn't make adding to it less bad.
First off, South Tyrol isn't a country(not recognized at least). Taiwan is. Second, you're just proving my point here. Organizations can do whatever the fuck they want, both in my case and yours, and see no consequences. It's time for the shit to stop and to give consequences. Saying "Free Hongkong" after winning a tournament is not comparable to the shit that they've been doing and did now. Even fired the casters who literally said nothing.
Frankly though, with this, Blizzard know what they're doing. I doubt they give a single shit about the western market anymore. They've been put between a rock and a hard place here, and they're literally killing their western image to try and get access to China, and if they do, they'll make billions. Blizzard is, time and time again, choosing to abandon the people who used to love them and are still the ones supporting their scummy business, by literally not giving a shit about them anymore, and trying to move to China. And that's their choice, but fuck them for that.
I think tl.net is not a politic discussion website, and Blizzard is not a political party. But anyway, freedom of speech does NOT mean freedom of consequences. Like you can have freedom of speech, but there may be consequences for what you say. That guy break the rules and deserve the ban.
On October 09 2019 15:41 pzlama333 wrote: I think tl.net is not a politic discussion website, and Blizzard is not a political party. But anyway, freedom of speech does NOT mean freedom of consequences. Like you can have freedom of speech, but there may be consequences for what you say. That guy break the rules and deserve the ban.
More happened here than just him getting a ban. TL.net is a community site, with a focus on gaming, and this situation arised from a gaming tournament, and actions were taken by a gamer and a gaming company. Fair game, imo.
This is really harsh. They are maybe protecting chinese viewers but streaming on twitch and playing tournaments wasn't a place where people aren't homopoliticus.
That's basicly what you get, if you fanboy any company.
Companies do not care about any moral values. They hire people, for money, who will release cheesy statements of moral values, to be more likeable to sell more of their product. It's all fake.
Gun manufacturers are not in the "Killing Business" but in the "Defense Economy". And Disney, NBA, Blizzard, Facebook would do anything to get a share of the possible 5-6 times as larger market in china (over US). And it does not stop by removing outspoken people from competition in your tournaments, it reflects back on the product. Western audience hated on diablo mobile, guess who would love it according to market research, and why it was made ? Only creating one product for the whole world - you'll have to take what the *Insert most promissing market here - right now its china" wants. And if you have please chinese censor you will find Activision Blizzard managers to do it. Maybe they'll cry in the shower afterwards, but it's all for the shareholders value.
Mercedes is making infotainment screens bigger - to fit chinese alphabet letters. And content creators will feel the chinese censors breath on their neck when making a movie, or making a game.
And that is the saddest part of all, chinese communist dictate what stories we will get. Either watered down on any political statement, or even close to actual chinese propaganda.
I understand the backlash and sympathize with it. But to my own surprise I do not fault Blizzard here.
I get annoyed when public figures in sports and entertainment get asked about their stance on political / related issues constantly. I really just want to watch Messi score goals and do not care what he thinks about racism or some political crisis.
In that sense, I respect the companies choice trying to separate politics and the broadcasting of their games. All that being said, I do not believe Blizzard does this for the right reasons. They probably just fear the consequences of not doing anything.
Blizzard 2001 - the best company ever. Blizzard 2019 - a laughing stock. (ok, not realy, still they are competent in making games, but they are pretty unremarkable as a game dev tbh.)
On October 09 2019 15:19 abuse wrote: You say mixing up sports and politics is frowned upon, yet, Blizzard is allowed to be as political as they want. Do you know that in the Overwatch league the Taiwanese team isn't called Taiwan but "Chinese Taipei" and the players are not allowed to even use their own country's flag because Blizzard doesn't want to kiss up to China to enter their market, and China thinks Taiwan is still their territory.
And south tirolean athletes are forced to compete under the italian flag, and there's the organizer's egalitarian ads in soccer matches and so on. Of course, sports are used for political agitation, but that doesn't make adding to it less bad.
First off, South Tyrol isn't a country(not recognized at least). Taiwan is. Second, you're just proving my point here. Organizations can do whatever the fuck they want, both in my case and .
First, Taiwan is not a country. United Nation does not recognize it. United States does not recognize it. Russia does not recognize it. United Kingdom, France, and all European Union countries do not recognize it. Most countries in the world do not recognize it. Even Taiwan's own "constitution", claim itself as part of China, under the name of "Republic of China". Technically, the mainland and the government in the island are still at full war state, and there is not even a cease fire. Second, Blizzard has its rules and will follow it. Anyone who compete an official competition also must accept it. If someone break the rules, whatever it is cheating or insulting other people, Blizzard has and will use its power. Not only Blizzard, most major sports organizations all have such rules. One example is FIFA, which bans all politics in any soccer event. 3. The riots and terrorists in Hong Kong do not seek freedom of speech. They seek freedom of making crimes and separation by force. They burn subway and banks, loot shops, block airport, and attack police, tourists and random people on street. If anyone want to support such actions, I assume that they are no difference with 9/11 attackers.
In that sense, I respect the companies choice trying to separate politics and the broadcasting of their games.
I really think this is mainly done to continue smooth business operation and to avoid committing to either side. But if you want to make money from people having a personality, get attention from fans, you maybe once in a while have to commit to a general attitude.
Blizzard for me, made good games. Blizzard would not have made the games we love today in communist china. And they already have shown, that they are willing to stop making games for the western market, and they are willing to take down casters who speak up.
Imagine Artosis being banned from any blizzard partner for making a joke about Winnie-the-pooh at blizzcon.
3. The riots and terrorists in Hong Kong do not seek freedom of speech. They seek freedom of making crimes and separation by force. They burn subway and banks, loot shops, block airport, and attack police, tourists and random people on street. If anyone want to support such actions, I assume that they are no difference with 9/11 attackers.
I have not yet heard of the protesters seeking profit in "burn Subway and banks and loot shops" . I have seen people with umbrellas taking down posts with facial recognition cameras. Perhaps happily living in a country that tracks your every move, that gives you "social credit" if you comply with communist party rules is now the modern idea of "not being a terrorist", and I missed out on the change..
Rule is rule, Blizzard did according to their competition rule book. Blitzchung did offend viewers from mainland China by what he said. I don't think it is a bad move for blizzard to keep away from this. Regarding of such rule, FIFA and Olympics do also have similar rules to keep them away from these political trouble.
I really don't think 'every voice matters' has anything to do with international politics, blizzard is only a gaming company after all.
BTW I know it is stupid to show up in such thread with Chinese tag, considering the opinions on this topic in western community is super onesided. But I think people are overreacting nowadays.
On October 09 2019 16:11 pzlama333 wrote: If anyone want to support such actions, I assume that they are no difference with 9/11 attackers.
Are you Americans all like that? No, it's not even REMOTELY comperable to 9/11. I do not question the rights of the chinese gouverment to the Hong Kong, but compering a rioters with clear political statement to a terrorists who did mass murder with primary intention to kill as many people they can just to send a message they want war is geting too far.
Often viewed tl.net but never had an account/posted on the forums - registered just to comment on this.
I think this is truly a disgrace on Blizzard's part - I'm from the UK and yes indeed, I understand why they have such rules regarding political statements on their platforms and so on, but this is quite an exceptional situation, as an American company they should support along with the rest of the free world the plight of the Hong Kong people right now - and be willing to give a by-ball to a young man native in Hong Kong is is right in the middle of & affected by this crisis currently. The Chinese communist party have brought stooge politicians in to Hong Kong who are more concerned with doing what they want than what the people of Hong Kong want, and are trying to work their way into control of Hong Kong and take away their free autonomous democratic rights and way of life. We should all use our positions of influence to stand with them against this evil if, and one thing we can do is at the very least hold the companies in our own countries to account when they fail to do so.
Blizzard clearly have no moral integrity whatsoever in this instance, it's like if Hearthstone was around in the 1940s and they censored a Jew on their platform from complaining about their plight with the upcoming Nazi regime in Germany. Yes, there are rules but they should at the very least not seek to appease the wrongdoings being committed against the Hong Kong people, they must publicly apologise and revoke the ban issued to this young gentleman, and return his prize money.
Sad as it is to say this, I think a boycott of Blizzard's products and services would be appropriate until they act as such - and those of us who feel strongly about this ought to contact Blizzard to ask them to do what is right on this matter.
Blizzard should not be afraid of losing market share in China - if they want to operate in this way they'll lose a lot more market share from their customers in the West who won't want anything to do with a company seeking to appease the oppressors of innocent people around the world just to keep certain markets open for their business.
On October 09 2019 16:17 CxWiLL wrote: Rule is rule, Blizzard did according to their competition rule book. Blitzchung did offend viewers from mainland China by what he said. I don't think it is a bad move for blizzard to keep away from this. Regarding of such rule, FIFA and Olympics do also have similar rules to keep them away from these political trouble.
I really don't think 'every voice matters' has anything to do with international politics, blizzard is only a gaming company after all.
BTW I know it is stupid to show up in such thread with Chinese tag, considering the opinions on this topic in western community is super onesided. But I think people are overreacting nowadays.
What Blizzard did was not "keep away from this" Blizzard made a statement with this. Keeping away from it would've been not responding to it.
It's pointless to talk about right or wrong, good or evil. It's just about consequences. To me, it seems that western fans are boycotting Blizzard by uninstalling everything while Chinese fans are trying to save Blizzard by sending money, although their games are under Netease management. Who would win? I don't know. Maybe next year Blizzard will be purchased by Netease and start to make MOBA games on mobile only available to China if this continues long enough. Well, maybe just a funny thought.
There are only two types of governments, democracy and dictatorship.
Dictatorships are inherently evil or they would not work. Democracies may elect evil leaders (Trump) but at least we can get rid of them in the next election.
Companies are mostly neutral. They are governed by greed. A good company would sacrifice money in order to do the right thing. Unfortunately, those companies are rare, and Blizzard is not one of them.
On October 09 2019 16:20 Destroya5 wrote: Often viewed tl.net but never had an account/posted on the forums - registered just to comment on this.
I think this is truly a disgrace on Blizzard's part - I'm from the UK and yes indeed, I understand why they have such rules regarding political statements on their platforms and so on, but this is quite an exceptional situation, as an American company they should support along with the rest of the free world the plight of the Hong Kong people right now - and be willing to give a by-ball to a young man native in Hong Kong is is right in the middle of & affected by this crisis currently. The Chinese communist party have brought stooge politicians in to Hong Kong who are more concerned with doing what they want than what the people of Hong Kong want, and are trying to work their way into control of Hong Kong and take away their free autonomous democratic rights and way of life. We should all use our positions of influence to stand with them against this evil if, and one thing we can do is at the very least hold the companies in our own countries to account when they fail to do so.
Blizzard clearly have no moral integrity whatsoever in this instance, it's like if Hearthstone was around in the 1940s and they censored a Jew on their platform from complaining about their plight with the upcoming Nazi regime in Germany. Yes, there are rules but they should at the very least not seek to appease the wrongdoings being committed against the Hong Kong people, they must publicly apologise and revoke the ban issued to this young gentleman, and return his prize money.
Sad as it is to say this, I think a boycott of Blizzard's products and services would be appropriate until they act as such - and those of us who feel strongly about this ought to contact Blizzard to ask them to do what is right on this matter.
Blizzard should not be afraid of losing market share in China - if they want to operate in this way they'll lose a lot more market share from their customers in the West who won't want anything to do with a company seeking to appease the oppressors of innocent people around the world just to keep certain markets open for their business.
I am not angry about Blizzard forcing the rules. I think video games are better without politics. I am angry about them for punishing stream cast. Chinese banning games is a cancer, but nobody can expect anything more from them. Blizzard punishing casters who are not guilty of anything is a cowardness.
Also, I don't believe that western audience will give a shit about that enough to boycott. But maybe it's just my unjust low opinion on humanity in general...
On October 09 2019 16:27 jy_9876543210 wrote: It's pointless to talk about right or wrong, good or evil. It's just about consequences. To me, it seems that western fans are boycotting Blizzard by uninstalling everything while Chinese fans are trying to save Blizzard by sending money, although their games are under Netease management. Who would win? I don't know. Maybe next year Blizzard will be purchased by Netease and start to make MOBA games on mobile only available to China if this continues long enough. Well, maybe just a funny thought.
It's pointless to talk about right or wrong, good or evil? Really - do you know that if you are in China and you speak against the Chinese government, like many human rights lawyers, or are a Christian or so on which they don't like - you will be oppressed in every way and very likely "disappear" with no trace - i.e. be murdered and tortured on order by the Chinese communist parties' forces. And the same could some be coming to the previously democratic and free Hong Kong - hence their resistance. How would you an authoritarian regime to take over control of your country?
I don't think it's pointless to talk about such things, or to support people fighting against such things - I think if we don't we should hang our heads in shame. If a company that we support in our own country punishes someone for speaking out against this then I don't think we can simply ignore it and carry on as if nothing has happened. Blizzard must be held to account for this, some way or somehow, if they refuse to apologise and to reverse their stance on this they deserve to lose massive trade and I hope the US government/lawyers go after them.
3. The riots and terrorists in Hong Kong do not seek freedom of speech. They seek freedom of making crimes and separation by force. They burn subway and banks, loot shops, block airport, and attack police, tourists and random people on street. If anyone want to support such actions, I assume that they are no difference with 9/11 attackers.
I have not yet heard of the protesters seeking profit in "burn Subway and banks and loot shops" . I have seen people with umbrellas taking down posts with facial recognition cameras. Perhaps happily living in a country that tracks your every move, that gives you "social credit" if you comply with communist party rules is now the modern idea of "not being a terrorist", and I missed out on the change..
For profit or not, burn subways, loot shops and attack polices make them riots but not your normal protesters. Thing are getting really ugly these days in HK. What kind of dystopia sci-fi illusion do you have on China? There is no 'social credit' here. We have the similar credit system your credit card company give you.
I'l quote my post from the WoW thread which predates this by 9 hrs since we didn't have a dedicated topic
On October 09 2019 06:32 Cyro wrote: Biggest Blizzard news headlines in a long time: A hearthstone tournament winner expressed their support for the hong kong protests in his winning interview, in response blizzard withheld all prize money + banned him + fired the interviewers + deleted tournament VODs.
It's exploded on social media since, all blizzard games and even some general news sites. I'm sad to see that they'd go through such lengths to support human rights abusers.
Blitzchung later told Inven Global it was his "duty" to speak out about the Hong Kong protests.
"As you know, there are serious protests in my country now," he said. "My call on stream was just another form of participation of the protest that I wish to grab more attention. I put so much effort in that social movement in the past few months that I sometimes couldn't focus on preparing my Grandmaster match.
"I know what my action on stream means. It could cause me lot of trouble, even my personal safety in real life," he told the publication.
On October 09 2019 15:19 abuse wrote: You say mixing up sports and politics is frowned upon, yet, Blizzard is allowed to be as political as they want. Do you know that in the Overwatch league the Taiwanese team isn't called Taiwan but "Chinese Taipei" and the players are not allowed to even use their own country's flag because Blizzard doesn't want to kiss up to China to enter their market, and China thinks Taiwan is still their territory.
And south tirolean athletes are forced to compete under the italian flag, and there's the organizer's egalitarian ads in soccer matches and so on. Of course, sports are used for political agitation, but that doesn't make adding to it less bad.
First off, South Tyrol isn't a country(not recognized at least). Taiwan is. Second, you're just proving my point here. Organizations can do whatever the fuck they want, both in my case and yours, and see no consequences. It's time for the shit to stop and to give consequences. Saying "Free Hongkong" after winning a tournament is not comparable to the shit that they've been doing and did now. Even fired the casters who literally said nothing.
Frankly though, with this, Blizzard know what they're doing. I doubt they give a single shit about the western market anymore. They've been put between a rock and a hard place here, and they're literally killing their western image to try and get access to China, and if they do, they'll make billions. Blizzard is, time and time again, choosing to abandon the people who used to love them and are still the ones supporting their scummy business, by literally not giving a shit about them anymore, and trying to move to China. And that's their choice, but fuck them for that.
Please list all the countries that officially politically recognize Taiwan. Please do so. Because only few officially recognized Taiwan, many have there embassy and some political/trade agreements but officially they don't recognize Taiwan as a standalone country. So, because I am obviously one of the misinformed, please list those countries.
For profit or not, burn subways, loot shops and attack polices make them riots but not your normal protesters. Thing are getting really ugly these days in HK. What kind of dystopia sci-fi illusion do you have on China? There is no 'social credit' here. We have the similar credit system your credit card company give you.
I have not seen reports of protesters being violent on large scales or the sake of violence. Chinese government has it's own definitions. If you are wearing a face mask: Terrorist. If you are on the street: Criminal Terrorist. If you throw back a tear-gas grenade : Murderer.
30 years ago China killed thousands of their own citizens in cold blood in Tienanmen Square, and if things don't improve they will do the same in Hong Kong. If that happens Blizzard will have blood on their hands.
On October 09 2019 16:11 pzlama333 wrote: If anyone want to support such actions, I assume that they are no difference with 9/11 attackers.
Are you Americans all like that? No, it's not even REMOTELY comperable to 9/11. I do not question the rights of the chinese gouverment to the Hong Kong, but compering a rioters with clear political statement to a terrorists who did mass murder with primary intention to kill as many people they can just to send a message they want war is geting too far.
By his logic, his own country was founded by a bunch of terrorists... This is the problem that we have so many people in the world who are totally brainwashed by different types of propaganda and act like sheep instead of standing up for what is right and just.
Its the same with this topic. A guys stands up and publicly supports people who want to improve the life and well-being of all the people in Hong Kong. Instead of being commended for his bravery, he is penalized by a company who are trying to kiss the "oppressing" country's ass to earn money... And that same company is doing the same as this guy does, but just for their own benefits. It just all makes me sick :/
Blizzard is hypocritical. Claim (Hides Behind) the "Seperate Politics and Sports" rule.
But what Blizzard did IS very much a statement. A warning or maybe even a DQ for Blitzchung would be to "seperate politics and sports". But they went fully nuclear. A DQ without price, followed by a ban AND on top of it firing the commentators? This is a political statement in itself. If you criticize the Chinese government you get punished severely, your livelihood will be ruined. But not only that. If you see someone criticize the government and you don't actively step in to defend them (like the interviewers) you will also get punished.
This is extremely evil and I am done with Blizzard's games.
On October 09 2019 16:55 Solar424 wrote: If that happens Blizzard will have blood on their hands.
Yeah... you Americans are apparently all like that...
No wonder that a stupid things like a wattermelon T-shirt in video games are a cause of online shitstorm, if you can go from one extreme (comparing rioters to mass murderes) to another one (blaming banning a player as a cooperation in potencial atrocity.)
I have not yet heard of the protesters seeking profit in "burn Subway and banks and loot shops" . I have seen people with umbrellas taking down posts with facial recognition cameras. Perhaps happily living in a country that tracks your every move, that gives you "social credit" if you comply with communist party rules is now the modern idea of "not being a terrorist", and I missed out on the change..
Please list all the countries that officially politically recognize Taiwan. Please do so. Because only few officially recognized Taiwan, many have there embassy and some political/trade agreements but officially they don't recognize Taiwan as a standalone country. So, because I am obviously one of the misinformed, please list those countries.
3. The riots and terrorists in Hong Kong do not seek freedom of speech. They seek freedom of making crimes and separation by force. They burn subway and banks, loot shops, block airport, and attack police, tourists and random people on street. If anyone want to support such actions, I assume that they are no difference with 9/11 attackers.
I have not yet heard of the protesters seeking profit in "burn Subway and banks and loot shops" . I have seen people with umbrellas taking down posts with facial recognition cameras. Perhaps happily living in a country that tracks your every move, that gives you "social credit" if you comply with communist party rules is now the modern idea of "not being a terrorist", and I missed out on the change..
For profit or not, burn subways, loot shops and attack polices make them riots but not your normal protesters. Thing are getting really ugly these days in HK. What kind of dystopia sci-fi illusion do you have on China? There is no 'social credit' here. We have the similar credit system your credit card company give you.
I have not yet heard of the protesters seeking profit in "burn Subway and banks and loot shops" . I have seen people with umbrellas taking down posts with facial recognition cameras. Perhaps happily living in a country that tracks your every move, that gives you "social credit" if you comply with communist party rules is now the modern idea of "not being a terrorist", and I missed out on the change..
Please list all the countries that officially politically recognize Taiwan. Please do so. Because only few officially recognized Taiwan, many have there embassy and some political/trade agreements but officially they don't recognize Taiwan as a standalone country. So, because I am obviously one of the misinformed, please list those countries.
This is my point, why are people angry at Blizzard when they should be angry at US government? Blizzard is just following the government. And it's not just US, Canada? EU? C'mon, all these people are angry at Blizzard for what?
The lack of stances taken by progamers is a bit saddening. I understand the unwillingness to put livelihood at risk, but this is massively egregious move by Blizzard, and should not remotely be tolerated.
This is going to suck massively, especially since I've just gotten back into sc2 and have been having a great time. And it probably won't have any effect other than making myself feel better, but I'm uninstalling Blizzard launcher today. I will not support a company that acts unacceptable towards its own players and fans to appease an authoritarian country.
On October 09 2019 16:11 pzlama333 wrote: If anyone want to support such actions, I assume that they are no difference with 9/11 attackers.
Are you Americans all like that? No, it's not even REMOTELY comperable to 9/11. I do not question the rights of the chinese gouverment to the Hong Kong, but compering a rioters with clear political statement to a terrorists who did mass murder with primary intention to kill as many people they can just to send a message they want war is geting too far.
By his logic, his own country was founded by a bunch of terrorists... This is the problem that we have so many people in the world who are totally brainwashed by different types of propaganda and act like sheep instead of standing up for what is right and just.
Its the same with this topic. A guys stands up and publicly supports people who want to improve the life and well-being of all the people in Hong Kong. Instead of being commended for his bravery, he is penalized by a company who are trying to kiss the "oppressing" country's ass to earn money... And that same company is doing the same as this guy does, but just for their own benefits. It just all makes me sick :/
It's funny to me how what you believe in is "Just and Right!" without second guessing, while everybody who believes differently is "brainwashed by propaganda" and "act like sheep". Where do you get your information? How do you know that they report the truth, and that opposing reports are wrong?
If that happens Blizzard will have blood on their hands.
If Blizzard and other companies would not have bend over and backwards to get into the market, maybe their chinese customers would have more reasons to distrust their government.
On October 09 2019 15:19 abuse wrote: You say mixing up sports and politics is frowned upon, yet, Blizzard is allowed to be as political as they want. Do you know that in the Overwatch league the Taiwanese team isn't called Taiwan but "Chinese Taipei" and the players are not allowed to even use their own country's flag because Blizzard doesn't want to kiss up to China to enter their market, and China thinks Taiwan is still their territory.
And south tirolean athletes are forced to compete under the italian flag, and there's the organizer's egalitarian ads in soccer matches and so on. Of course, sports are used for political agitation, but that doesn't make adding to it less bad.
First off, South Tyrol isn't a country(not recognized at least). Taiwan is. Second, you're just proving my point here. Organizations can do whatever the fuck they want, both in my case and .
First, Taiwan is not a country. United Nation does not recognize it. United States does not recognize it. Russia does not recognize it. United Kingdom, France, and all European Union countries do not recognize it. Most countries in the world do not recognize it. Even Taiwan's own "constitution", claim itself as part of China, under the name of "Republic of China". Technically, the mainland and the government in the island are still at full war state, and there is not even a cease fire. Second, Blizzard has its rules and will follow it. Anyone who compete an official competition also must accept it. If someone break the rules, whatever it is cheating or insulting other people, Blizzard has and will use its power. Not only Blizzard, most major sports organizations all have such rules. One example is FIFA, which bans all politics in any soccer event. 3. The riots and terrorists in Hong Kong do not seek freedom of speech. They seek freedom of making crimes and separation by force. They burn subway and banks, loot shops, block airport, and attack police, tourists and random people on street. If anyone want to support such actions, I assume that they are no difference with 9/11 attackers.
If that happens Blizzard will have blood on their hands.
If Blizzard and other companies would not have bend over and backwards to get into the market, maybe their chinese customers would have more reasons to distrust their government.
Can you tell me why Blizzard is the vilain here while almost all the countries in the world are bending over and backwards and don't recognize Taiwan are fine? And Blizzard has zero political power but the US, EU countries... If all these angry people would turn their anger at their government then maybe somethign would happen, Blizzard is nobody in political sense.
On October 09 2019 16:11 pzlama333 wrote: If anyone want to support such actions, I assume that they are no difference with 9/11 attackers.
Are you Americans all like that? No, it's not even REMOTELY comperable to 9/11. I do not question the rights of the chinese gouverment to the Hong Kong, but compering a rioters with clear political statement to a terrorists who did mass murder with primary intention to kill as many people they can just to send a message they want war is geting too far.
The fact is that the rioters are beating up police and anyone dares to disagree, throwing gasoline bombs and destroying subway stations, all while wearing black masks and overalls to "send a message".
I don't want to debate on TL about whether the rioters are terrorists. And this is a perfect example of why political voices should not interfere with esports. Once the topic starts, it will always offend people and create disputes, robbing the space for rational discussion. There are platforms dedicated for political discussions, as Blizzard events are dedicated for esports and games. IMO Blizzard has done a good job of making an example out of this player. "Every voice matters" is no excuse for contaminating the esport scene with political views.
Can't really expect private US & EU companies to stand up to dictatorships when our own governments seem all too happy to put cash in the short-term over free world values over the long-term.
On October 09 2019 17:07 Excludos wrote: The lack of stances taken by progamers is a bit saddening. I understand the unwillingness to put livelihood at risk, but this is massively egregious move by Blizzard, and should not remotely be tolerated.
This is going to suck massively, especially since I've just gotten back into sc2 and have been having a great time. And it probably won't have any effect other than making myself feel better, but I'm uninstalling Blizzard launcher today. I will not support a company that acts unacceptable towards its own players and fans to appease an authoritarian country.
While I had the same thoughts as you yesterday, when i was made aware of the story - i have since come to re-evaluate my stance on the subject.
In the ideal world - streamers would voice their opinion on this matter, and use their influence over the people who consume their product- to send a message to blizzard..
Though it is very understandable that most would be apprehensive about biting the hand that feeds them.. If all did so collectivly i might work, but in the frame that is set up my the prisoners dilemma-mentallity , it i better for the individual to stay quiet..
Blizzard obviously knows that consumer attention is short - and the long term outlook for their evaluation is probably based on success in the chinese market. Look at EA 6 months ago - everybody was saying they would fall from their grred - but their stock is healthty as ever..
Being a streamer is a fragile profession - your livelyhood is based on the interest in what you are doing .. it not like if i quit my job because i disagree with the companies morals - i would still have my degree, and abilities as a programmer. But can a streamer be confident that they'll have the same success streaming another game?
On October 09 2019 17:17 feebas wrote: Can't really expect private US & EU companies to stand up to dictatorships when our own governments seem all too happy to put cash in the short-term over free world values over the long-term.
Nowadays anything goes, just to get those juicy chinese Renminbi. Used to be the same way wiht US Dollars, but with chinese economy overtaking the US in power, I expect a large shift in sociatal values along with it.
On October 09 2019 16:55 Solar424 wrote: If that happens Blizzard will have blood on their hands.
Yeah... you Americans are apparently all like that...
No wonder that a stupid things like a wattermelon T-shirt in video games are a cause of online shitstorm, if you can go from one extreme (comparing rioters to mass murderes) to another one (blaming banning a player as a cooperation in potencial atrocity.)
By banning blitzchung Blizzard has basically come out in support of the CPC and the Hong Kong police and their actions. If there is a bloody crackdown they'll try to retcon it like they do with all their other stories and say they were always against the police, but we'll all know that's a lie.
That is exactly what i mean, the credit system in China is basically a financial statement. Banks all over the world have similar conducts. There is no 'social credit' for being 'well-behaved'.
On October 09 2019 16:11 pzlama333 wrote: If anyone want to support such actions, I assume that they are no difference with 9/11 attackers.
Are you Americans all like that? No, it's not even REMOTELY comperable to 9/11. I do not question the rights of the chinese gouverment to the Hong Kong, but compering a rioters with clear political statement to a terrorists who did mass murder with primary intention to kill as many people they can just to send a message they want war is geting too far.
The fact is that the rioters are beating up police and anyone dares to disagree, throwing gasoline bombs and destroying subway stations, all while wearing black masks and overalls to "send a message".
The "fact" is also that the police have set an example when it comes to violence and that in almost any large enough group of people there will be people who are prone to violence and that will take the behaviour of the police as justification of their actions. There was barely any note of deescalation by the police (which would be part of their fucking job), instead we get the videos of them pushing people down escalators so now the chinese government and people like you can point to the protesters' violence.
I understand Blizz has their rules and if they allowed political statements on air that reach a lot of people a lot of big problems would follow. Imagine a tournament winner getting payed on the side for mentioning a certain political party in their post game interview for example, this is stuff that would happen if it was allowed.
Not allowing something however doesn't mean to ban him and take his money, that is in my opinion clearly going too far.
Punishing the casters though that is so incredibly shitty I lack the words to properly articulate my disgust. Doing something like that IS sending a strong political statement, doing the thing themselves that they ban their players for doing. Punish the player sure, even to this over the top degree is at least in accordance with the rules but the casters...... There is absolutely no way to defend that, seriously Blizz get your shit together.
On October 09 2019 16:11 pzlama333 wrote: If anyone want to support such actions, I assume that they are no difference with 9/11 attackers.
Are you Americans all like that? No, it's not even REMOTELY comperable to 9/11. I do not question the rights of the chinese gouverment to the Hong Kong, but compering a rioters with clear political statement to a terrorists who did mass murder with primary intention to kill as many people they can just to send a message they want war is geting too far.
The fact is that the rioters are beating up police and anyone dares to disagree, throwing gasoline bombs and destroying subway stations, all while wearing black masks and overalls to "send a message".
I don't want to debate on TL about whether the rioters are terrorists. And this is a perfect example of why political voices should not interfere with esports. Once the topic starts, it will always offend people and create disputes, robbing the space for rational discussion. There are platforms dedicated for political discussions, as Blizzard events are dedicated for esports and games. IMO Blizzard has done a good job of making an example out of this player. "Every voice matters" is no excuse for contaminating the esport scene with political views.
You mean fighting back against a pro-chinese police force, lead by a corrupt council of politicians - because hong kong has one of the least democratic election structures in the world? No wonder they're fighting back. You should look into their election process - its a bullshit system
That is exactly what i mean, the credit system in China is basically a financial statement. Banks all over the world have similar conducts. There is no 'social credit' for being 'well-behaved'.
That's a straight up false claim. People have lost all social credits for standing up to either the Chinese government, or for speaking out against something the Chinese government happen to like. Banks credit scores works on how well you're able to pay your bills. Chinese credit scores works on whatever the hell they feel like.
On October 09 2019 16:55 Solar424 wrote: If that happens Blizzard will have blood on their hands.
Yeah... you Americans are apparently all like that...
No wonder that a stupid things like a wattermelon T-shirt in video games are a cause of online shitstorm, if you can go from one extreme (comparing rioters to mass murderes) to another one (blaming banning a player as a cooperation in potencial atrocity.)
By banning blitzchung Blizzard has basically come out in support of the CPC and the Hong Kong police and their actions. If there is a bloody crackdown they'll try to retcon it like they do with all their other stories and say they were always against the police, but we'll all know that's a lie.
I disagree with your opinion. They have come out as a for profit organisation forbidding people to use their game and popularity as a platform for political agenda. Neither military action, nor violence in the city of Hongkong are related to anything blizzard does or wants to accomplish. Avoiding taking side in any conflict also avoids alienating a part of your potential costumers because of political believe.
On October 09 2019 16:55 Solar424 wrote: If that happens Blizzard will have blood on their hands.
Yeah... you Americans are apparently all like that...
No wonder that a stupid things like a wattermelon T-shirt in video games are a cause of online shitstorm, if you can go from one extreme (comparing rioters to mass murderes) to another one (blaming banning a player as a cooperation in potencial atrocity.)
By banning blitzchung Blizzard has basically come out in support of the CPC and the Hong Kong police and their actions. If there is a bloody crackdown they'll try to retcon it like they do with all their other stories and say they were always against the police, but we'll all know that's a lie.
I disagree with your opinion. They have come out as a for profit organisation forbidding people to use their game and popularity as a platform for political agenda. Neither military action, nor violence in the city of Hongkong are related to anything blizzard does or wants to accomplish. Avoiding taking side in any conflict also avoids alienating a part of your potential costumers because of political believe.
And the casters? What did they do other than being somewhere remotely close to the situation at hand?
Make no mistake. This wasn't just Blizzard following their own rules for the sake of political free entertainment. This was them sending a statement to anyone who might be pro Hong Kong. Do you honestly think the player or casters would have been punished remotely similarly if someone had been on stream with an "Impeach Trump" sign?
On October 09 2019 16:55 Solar424 wrote: If that happens Blizzard will have blood on their hands.
Yeah... you Americans are apparently all like that...
No wonder that a stupid things like a wattermelon T-shirt in video games are a cause of online shitstorm, if you can go from one extreme (comparing rioters to mass murderes) to another one (blaming banning a player as a cooperation in potencial atrocity.)
By banning blitzchung Blizzard has basically come out in support of the CPC and the Hong Kong police and their actions. If there is a bloody crackdown they'll try to retcon it like they do with all their other stories and say they were always against the police, but we'll all know that's a lie.
I disagree with your opinion. They have come out as a for profit organisation forbidding people to use their game and popularity as a platform for political agenda. Neither military action, nor violence in the city of Hongkong are related to anything blizzard does or wants to accomplish. Avoiding taking side in any conflict also avoids alienating a part of your potential costumers because of political believe.
And the casters? What did they do other than being somewhere remotely close to the situation at hand?
They hide, didn't try to step in nor they said nothing against this? I believe for this.
On October 09 2019 16:55 Solar424 wrote: If that happens Blizzard will have blood on their hands.
Yeah... you Americans are apparently all like that...
No wonder that a stupid things like a wattermelon T-shirt in video games are a cause of online shitstorm, if you can go from one extreme (comparing rioters to mass murderes) to another one (blaming banning a player as a cooperation in potencial atrocity.)
By banning blitzchung Blizzard has basically come out in support of the CPC and the Hong Kong police and their actions. If there is a bloody crackdown they'll try to retcon it like they do with all their other stories and say they were always against the police, but we'll all know that's a lie.
I disagree with your opinion. They have come out as a for profit organisation forbidding people to use their game and popularity as a platform for political agenda. Neither military action, nor violence in the city of Hongkong are related to anything blizzard does or wants to accomplish. Avoiding taking side in any conflict also avoids alienating a part of your potential costumers because of political believe.
And the casters? What did they do other than being somewhere remotely close to the situation at hand?
They hide, didn't try to step in nor they said nothing against this? I believe for this.
They ducked down and then cut to commercials. Yes, what absolute savages. Definitively deserved to get fired..
On October 09 2019 16:11 pzlama333 wrote: If anyone want to support such actions, I assume that they are no difference with 9/11 attackers.
Are you Americans all like that? No, it's not even REMOTELY comperable to 9/11. I do not question the rights of the chinese gouverment to the Hong Kong, but compering a rioters with clear political statement to a terrorists who did mass murder with primary intention to kill as many people they can just to send a message they want war is geting too far.
The fact is that the rioters are beating up police and anyone dares to disagree, throwing gasoline bombs and destroying subway stations, all while wearing black masks and overalls to "send a message".
The "fact" is also that the police have set an example when it comes to violence and that in almost any large enough group of people there will be people who are prone to violence and that will take the behaviour of the police as justification of their actions. There was barely any note of deescalation by the police (which would be part of their fucking job), instead we get the videos of them pushing people down escalators so now the chinese government and people like you can point to the protesters' violence.
I'm assuming by "deescalation" you mean the police should do nothing and allow protestors to set fire on the street and paralyze MTR system. The fucking job of the police is not to pacify violent-prone thugs but to arrest them. If masked men in black were rioting in the USA they would be shot down to the last man.
And this is a perfect example of why political voices should not interfere with esports. Once the topic starts, it will always offend people and create disputes, robbing the space for rational discussion.
So the high road for blizzard would have been: "Sad to announce that Blitzching has violated TOS and will DQ from the next X-Tournamentcycles"
But DQ for Life+Holding back prize money + firing the casters for not stopping him... well that is actually political and very opressive.
On October 09 2019 16:55 Solar424 wrote: If that happens Blizzard will have blood on their hands.
Yeah... you Americans are apparently all like that...
No wonder that a stupid things like a wattermelon T-shirt in video games are a cause of online shitstorm, if you can go from one extreme (comparing rioters to mass murderes) to another one (blaming banning a player as a cooperation in potencial atrocity.)
By banning blitzchung Blizzard has basically come out in support of the CPC and the Hong Kong police and their actions. If there is a bloody crackdown they'll try to retcon it like they do with all their other stories and say they were always against the police, but we'll all know that's a lie.
I disagree with your opinion. They have come out as a for profit organisation forbidding people to use their game and popularity as a platform for political agenda. Neither military action, nor violence in the city of Hongkong are related to anything blizzard does or wants to accomplish. Avoiding taking side in any conflict also avoids alienating a part of your potential costumers because of political believe.
And the casters? What did they do other than being somewhere remotely close to the situation at hand?
They hide, didn't try to step in nor they said nothing against this? I believe for this.
They ducked down and then cut to commercials. Yes, what absolute savages. Definitively deserved to get fired..
I'm not saying it was right, was just offering my view why this happened.
And this is a perfect example of why political voices should not interfere with esports. Once the topic starts, it will always offend people and create disputes, robbing the space for rational discussion.
So the high road for blizzard would have been: "Sad to announce that Blitzching has violated TOS and will DQ from the next X-Tournamentcycles"
But DQ for Life+Holding back prize money + firing the casters for not stopping him... well that is actually political and very opressive.
I'm still wondering if you reply on my previous reply to your post (the government one )
On October 09 2019 16:11 pzlama333 wrote: If anyone want to support such actions, I assume that they are no difference with 9/11 attackers.
Are you Americans all like that? No, it's not even REMOTELY comperable to 9/11. I do not question the rights of the chinese gouverment to the Hong Kong, but compering a rioters with clear political statement to a terrorists who did mass murder with primary intention to kill as many people they can just to send a message they want war is geting too far.
The fact is that the rioters are beating up police and anyone dares to disagree, throwing gasoline bombs and destroying subway stations, all while wearing black masks and overalls to "send a message".
The "fact" is also that the police have set an example when it comes to violence and that in almost any large enough group of people there will be people who are prone to violence and that will take the behaviour of the police as justification of their actions. There was barely any note of deescalation by the police (which would be part of their fucking job), instead we get the videos of them pushing people down escalators so now the chinese government and people like you can point to the protesters' violence.
I'm assuming by "deescalation" you mean the police should do nothing and allow protestors to set fire on the street and paralyze MTR system. The fucking job of the police is not to pacify violent-prone thugs but to arrest them. If masked men in black were rioting in the USA they would be shot down to the last man.
From what was in my medie the situation was following: 1) Nonviolent protests 2) Political response from the governer(? the lady in charge) about more China friendly solution 3) Protests with covered faces 4) Police brutally attacking non violent protesters(at that time) 5) #4 turned the protests into full blown riots with police beating them, they beating the police
I believe this is how all western media covered it, so ... uh... Hong Kong Police was the one who started the violence
And this is a perfect example of why political voices should not interfere with esports. Once the topic starts, it will always offend people and create disputes, robbing the space for rational discussion.
So the high road for blizzard would have been: "Sad to announce that Blitzching has violated TOS and will DQ from the next X-Tournamentcycles"
But DQ for Life+Holding back prize money + firing the casters for not stopping him... well that is actually political and very opressive.
Exacly.
Player did violate rule. Casters did not. Punishing casters is political statement. And I bet it was decision dictated by external pressure.
Don't see the problem. Hk is like a Singapore, a parasite city with ultra privileged rich citizens who got special rights. I am glad China is finally taking actions against it even if I am bit upsed for their light reaction, why don't they intervene with the army for god sake. They are nothing but rich kids who would flee, it's a disgrace.
All in all this is a struggle between the same international bourgeoisie who exploits billions and destroy the planet and the last nation state who can deal with it, if China loses it, it just means nothing can be done.
On October 09 2019 17:41 stilt wrote: Don't see the problem. Hk is like a Singapore, a parasite city with ultra privileged rich citizens who got special rights. I am glad China is finally taking actions against it even if I am bit upsed for their light reaction, why don't they intervene with the army for god sake. They are nothing but rich kids who would flee, it's a disgrace.
All in all this is a struggle between the same international bourgeoisie who exploits billions and destroy the planet and the last nation state who can deal with it, if China loses it, it just means nothing can be done.
Then they shouldn't start with one country two systems
On October 09 2019 16:11 pzlama333 wrote: If anyone want to support such actions, I assume that they are no difference with 9/11 attackers.
Are you Americans all like that? No, it's not even REMOTELY comperable to 9/11. I do not question the rights of the chinese gouverment to the Hong Kong, but compering a rioters with clear political statement to a terrorists who did mass murder with primary intention to kill as many people they can just to send a message they want war is geting too far.
The fact is that the rioters are beating up police and anyone dares to disagree, throwing gasoline bombs and destroying subway stations, all while wearing black masks and overalls to "send a message".
The "fact" is also that the police have set an example when it comes to violence and that in almost any large enough group of people there will be people who are prone to violence and that will take the behaviour of the police as justification of their actions. There was barely any note of deescalation by the police (which would be part of their fucking job), instead we get the videos of them pushing people down escalators so now the chinese government and people like you can point to the protesters' violence.
I'm assuming by "deescalation" you mean the police should do nothing and allow protestors to set fire on the street and paralyze MTR system. The fucking job of the police is not to pacify violent-prone thugs but to arrest them.
On October 09 2019 15:19 abuse wrote: You say mixing up sports and politics is frowned upon, yet, Blizzard is allowed to be as political as they want. Do you know that in the Overwatch league the Taiwanese team isn't called Taiwan but "Chinese Taipei" and the players are not allowed to even use their own country's flag because Blizzard doesn't want to kiss up to China to enter their market, and China thinks Taiwan is still their territory.
And south tirolean athletes are forced to compete under the italian flag, and there's the organizer's egalitarian ads in soccer matches and so on. Of course, sports are used for political agitation, but that doesn't make adding to it less bad.
First off, South Tyrol isn't a country(not recognized at least). Taiwan is. Second, you're just proving my point here. Organizations can do whatever the fuck they want, both in my case and yours, and see no consequences. It's time for the shit to stop and to give consequences. Saying "Free Hongkong" after winning a tournament is not comparable to the shit that they've been doing and did now. Even fired the casters who literally said nothing.
Frankly though, with this, Blizzard know what they're doing. I doubt they give a single shit about the western market anymore. They've been put between a rock and a hard place here, and they're literally killing their western image to try and get access to China, and if they do, they'll make billions. Blizzard is, time and time again, choosing to abandon the people who used to love them and are still the ones supporting their scummy business, by literally not giving a shit about them anymore, and trying to move to China. And that's their choice, but fuck them for that.
Please list all the countries that officially politically recognize Taiwan. Please do so. Because only few officially recognized Taiwan, many have there embassy and some political/trade agreements but officially they don't recognize Taiwan as a standalone country. So, because I am obviously one of the misinformed, please list those countries.
Wiki is as always simplyfing things. It says the US has no full diplomatic representation which might be true. But yet US is sending Aircrft Carriers to deter Chianas agression against Tawian which is much stronger statement than any level of dimplomatic relations.
this is fucked and btw they do not always enforce this rule
i have definitely heard Tasteless and Artosis make several statements about Donald Trump on GSL broadcasts before. and nothing happened. as it shouldn't.
On October 09 2019 17:41 stilt wrote: Don't see the problem. Hk is like a Singapore, a parasite city with ultra privileged rich citizens who got special rights.
When Malaysia decided Singapure is a parasite, they just talled them to fuck off and separated from them instead of sending army.
On October 09 2019 17:41 stilt wrote: All in all this is a struggle between the same international bourgeoisie who exploits billions and destroy the planet and the last nation state who can deal with it, if China loses it, it just means nothing can be done.
Assuming you are not a trolling, I dont see a big difference between planet devastation made by "bourgeoisie" and that one done by "commies". I can easily show you multiple ecological catastrophies made by them at hand, starting with China.
On October 09 2019 17:41 stilt wrote: Don't see the problem. Hk is like a Singapore, a parasite city with ultra privileged rich citizens who got special rights. I am glad China is finally taking actions against it even if I am bit upsed for their light reaction, why don't they intervene with the army for god sake. They are nothing but rich kids who would flee, it's a disgrace.
All in all this is a struggle between the same international bourgeoisie who exploits billions and destroy the planet and the last nation state who can deal with it, if China loses it, it just means nothing can be done.
If you don't see a problem then shut up, you're not allowed to speak about politics according to yourself.
On October 09 2019 15:19 abuse wrote: You say mixing up sports and politics is frowned upon, yet, Blizzard is allowed to be as political as they want. Do you know that in the Overwatch league the Taiwanese team isn't called Taiwan but "Chinese Taipei" and the players are not allowed to even use their own country's flag because Blizzard doesn't want to kiss up to China to enter their market, and China thinks Taiwan is still their territory.
And south tirolean athletes are forced to compete under the italian flag, and there's the organizer's egalitarian ads in soccer matches and so on. Of course, sports are used for political agitation, but that doesn't make adding to it less bad.
First off, South Tyrol isn't a country(not recognized at least). Taiwan is. Second, you're just proving my point here. Organizations can do whatever the fuck they want, both in my case and yours, and see no consequences. It's time for the shit to stop and to give consequences. Saying "Free Hongkong" after winning a tournament is not comparable to the shit that they've been doing and did now. Even fired the casters who literally said nothing.
Frankly though, with this, Blizzard know what they're doing. I doubt they give a single shit about the western market anymore. They've been put between a rock and a hard place here, and they're literally killing their western image to try and get access to China, and if they do, they'll make billions. Blizzard is, time and time again, choosing to abandon the people who used to love them and are still the ones supporting their scummy business, by literally not giving a shit about them anymore, and trying to move to China. And that's their choice, but fuck them for that.
Please list all the countries that officially politically recognize Taiwan. Please do so. Because only few officially recognized Taiwan, many have there embassy and some political/trade agreements but officially they don't recognize Taiwan as a standalone country. So, because I am obviously one of the misinformed, please list those countries.
Wiki is as always simplyfing things. It says the US has no full diplomatic representation which might be true. But yet US is sending Aircrft Carriers to deter Chianas agression against Tawian which is much stronger statement than any level of dimplomatic relations.
At the same time US isn't disputing one China. So we want this from Blizzard who doesn't have military nor political power and yet we're fine with US doing this double think process? Isn't this very hypocritical?
how lovely it would be to live in a world where people kept their political nonsense out of sport
Hrmm there is a fine line between not being political and just have fun - and not being political because you are about to face serious financial consequences if the wrong words are to be said within the context of one of your products.
Blizzard knows that they won't be allowed to sell services, if they don't act as if they were the chinese censors themselfs. And they know they can not take chinese gov to court over this (as they could in the US of A)
how lovely it would be to live in a world where people kept their political nonsense out of sport
Hrmm there is a fine line between not being political and just have fun - and not being political because you are about to face serious financial consequences if the wrong words are to be said within the context of one of your products.
Blizzard knows that they won't be allowed to sell services, if they don't act as if they were the chinese censors themselfs. And they know they can not take chinese gov to court over this (as they could in the US of A)
Actually I was mostly referring to Blizzard/China not honoring the sanctity of sport - corrupting it with political nonsense.
On October 09 2019 17:52 Schelim wrote: this is fucked and btw they do not always enforce this rule
i have definitely heard Tasteless and Artosis make several statements about Donald Trump on GSL broadcasts before. and nothing happened. as it shouldn't.
I don't think the two are compareable. Making fun of Trump is a whole industry in and of itself in the US.
And then there is this, from reddit: American University Hearthstone team holds up "Free Hong Kong, boycott Blizzard" sign during Collegiate Hearthstone Championship. Blizzard quickly cuts their broadcast.
how lovely it would be to live in a world where people kept their political nonsense out of sport
Hrmm there is a fine line between not being political and just have fun - and not being political because you are about to face serious financial consequences if the wrong words are to be said within the context of one of your products.
Blizzard knows that they won't be allowed to sell services, if they don't act as if they were the chinese censors themselfs. And they know they can not take chinese gov to court over this (as they could in the US of A)
Actually I was mostly referring to Blizzard/China not honoring the sanctity of sport - corrupting it with political nonsense.
Ridiculous. If you honor the sanctity of sport, you shouldn't say any political word in a game! What do you wanna see ?" An excellent game "or"political opinion"? I dont think you want to talk about your work when you are enjoying your vacation.
On October 09 2019 18:21 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote: Why anyone would support blizzard after the last 8 years of horseshit is beyond me.
While I agree with you it is not as clear cut as that. I love starcraft and if no one supports the game it will disappear, imagine if Fifa owned soccer and if you didn't support them no one could play soccer. Between a rock and a hard place for sure
On October 09 2019 17:52 Schelim wrote: this is fucked and btw they do not always enforce this rule
i have definitely heard Tasteless and Artosis make several statements about Donald Trump on GSL broadcasts before. and nothing happened. as it shouldn't.
I don't think the two are compareable. Making fun of Trump is a whole industry in and of itself in the US.
Of course they aren't. Trump won't ban your games in America .
And Americans themselves won't rally to keep politics out of the game.
Actually I was mostly referring to Blizzard/China not honoring the sanctity of sport - corrupting it with political nonsense.
Just say it like it is: "I am not interested in that shit, but I can not not-care enough to not comment either"
"sanctity of sport" ...To china, like many insecure nations world wide sport is just another way to show dominance, and so they do everything to win in popular sports - like shielding athletes from anti-doping tests .
On October 09 2019 17:52 Schelim wrote: this is fucked and btw they do not always enforce this rule
i have definitely heard Tasteless and Artosis make several statements about Donald Trump on GSL broadcasts before. and nothing happened. as it shouldn't.
I don't think the two are compareable. Making fun of Trump is a whole industry in and of itself in the US.
Of course they aren't. Trump won't ban your games in America .
And Americans themselves won't rally to keep politics out of the game.
but that's my point. they didn't enforce the rule because they're so intent to always enforce that rule, they did it out of fear of political consequences.
If Reddit was a dumpster fire when D:Immortal was announced, it's now a full blown fire storm.
Obviously Reddit is pretty left wing and generally sympathized with the HK protesters beforehand already. But this goes a bit for gamers in general, it is really easy to sympathize with people who peacefully protested for months against one of the most oppressive regimes on the planet which was trying to force legal abductions into areas controlled by a totalitarian regime that's treating prisoners like slaves. The fact that the protests turned violent recently doesn't really change that.
Waiting for an update on the Atvi-stock development because this will probably damage them for a while.
Also interesting to see where this goes long term, because there's an increasingly clear conflict of interests between Western standards that we are used to and the censorship the Chinese gov has been pushing due to their huge market.
On October 09 2019 17:41 stilt wrote: Don't see the problem. Hk is like a Singapore, a parasite city with ultra privileged rich citizens who got special rights. I am glad China is finally taking actions against it even if I am bit upsed for their light reaction, why don't they intervene with the army for god sake. They are nothing but rich kids who would flee, it's a disgrace.
All in all this is a struggle between the same international bourgeoisie who exploits billions and destroy the planet and the last nation state who can deal with it, if China loses it, it just means nothing can be done.
"oh no, if they're doing better than me, then we need to beat them up and put them in line" disgusting.
On October 09 2019 17:52 Schelim wrote: this is fucked and btw they do not always enforce this rule
i have definitely heard Tasteless and Artosis make several statements about Donald Trump on GSL broadcasts before. and nothing happened. as it shouldn't.
I don't think the two are compareable. Making fun of Trump is a whole industry in and of itself in the US.
Of course they aren't. Trump won't ban your games in America .
And Americans themselves won't rally to keep politics out of the game.
but that's my point. they didn't enforce the rule because they're so intent to always enforce that rule, they did it out of fear of political consequences.
Blizzard and other companies are free to make special products, rules and even streams for china. I think what angers (me) the most, is that they are too cheap, and just try to push chinese censorship onto the world.
On October 09 2019 17:52 Schelim wrote: this is fucked and btw they do not always enforce this rule
i have definitely heard Tasteless and Artosis make several statements about Donald Trump on GSL broadcasts before. and nothing happened. as it shouldn't.
I don't think the two are compareable. Making fun of Trump is a whole industry in and of itself in the US.
Of course they aren't. Trump won't ban your games in America .
And Americans themselves won't rally to keep politics out of the game.
but that's my point. they didn't enforce the rule because they're so intent to always enforce that rule, they did it out of fear of political consequences.
I don't think making fun of a public figure is sending a political message. I'm making fun of Trump every time I get a chance and yet if I were an american I would have been supporting him (but as I am not I am just making fun of him)
As someone who currently has a friend here in the UK who is coming here from Hong Kong for university I think it's disgraceful. He is going through severe problems mentally as he tries to make sure his family are safe over there while constantly having to worry whether or not he will be able to even return and should he return to HK, whether or not he will be able to complete his degree here in the UK. In short his life is being ruined by this and the state that is responsible for that is being validated in its position by the likes of Activision-Blizzard. It's horrifying to watch.
Anyone aware of Blizzard's history and consistency with handling political statements during esports broadcasts? And I mean OVERTLY political statements, not wisecracks about Trump from Tastosis that have ambiguous political leaning.
Marineking bringing up the Dokdo territorial dispute in 2011 is the only example I could think of in SC2, which I recall simply fizzling out without any public response from anyone. I do feel this has limited applicability (if any), as this was a GomTV operated league (directly operated by blizzard vs receiving some funding from Blizzard is a meaningful difference), and probably years before Blizzard had serious esports aspirations/policies.
It would be interesting to hear if there are examples from other Blizzard esports titles, or examples from SC2 that I missed.
On October 09 2019 19:05 Waxangel wrote: Anyone aware of Blizzard's history and consistency with handling political statements during esports broadcasts? And I mean OVERTLY political statements, not wisecracks about Trump from Tastosis that have ambiguous political leaning.
Marineking bringing up the Dokdo territorial dispute in 2011 is the only example I could think of in SC2, which I recall simply fizzling out without any public response from anyone. I do feel this has limited applicability (if any), as this was a GomTV operated league (directly operated by blizzard vs receiving some funding from Blizzard is a meaningful difference), and probably years before Blizzard had serious esports aspirations/policies.
It would be interesting to hear if there are examples from other Blizzard esports titles, or examples from SC2 that I missed.
what tournament was it a few months ago where this previously rather unknown British caster (i'm sorry i don't remember his name either) made a statement - phrased as a joke, but it still was a clear political statement - about Brexit? there was a little ruffling online but no actual consequences from what i remember.
I seem to recall statment supporting Brexit during HomeStory Cup (i think it was all British cast - but i also dont remmber the name of the guy who said it). It was phrased as a joke, but it was clear he was supporting Brexit even NO DEAL Brexit (at least i took it that way).
Political statements like this are a big no-no. So they guy knew exactly what he was doing. That said, I can't believe Activision-bliz didn't realise this would blow up in their faces. They shoud have just said something along the lines of 'No politics plz' and banned him for a a couple of months, instead of going full on crackdown on the whole thing. With all the bad press they've been getting over the new CoD, surely you'd think they want to avoid more drama. You just gotta wonder, how can they spend so many millions in marketing and still get into shit like this? Also, some reddit user had a translation of the chinese Activision-bliz statement that said something ludicrous along the lines of 'we shall defend the country's honor' or something. Can anyone confirm this? If it's true, it's even more hillarious tbh.
'we shall defend the country's honor' or something. Can anyone confirm this? If it's true, it's even more hillarious tbh.
Can't remember the exact phrase, but it's a very very very common stock phrase you'll see in lots of official communiques. You can read it as "god bless america" if you will, and shouldn't really read into it more than that.
On October 09 2019 16:20 Destroya5 wrote: [...] Blizzard clearly have no moral integrity whatsoever in this instance, it's like if Hearthstone was around in the 1940s and they censored a Jew on their platform from complaining about their plight with the upcoming Nazi regime in Germany. Yes, there are rules but they should at the very least not seek to appease the wrongdoings being committed against the Hong Kong people, they must publicly apologise and revoke the ban issued to this young gentleman, and return his prize money. [...]
There is an assumption there. You think the Nazi regime is going to lose, while Blizzard as an economic entity bets on the economically stronger force.
On October 09 2019 19:42 ihatevideogames wrote: Political statements like this are a big no-no. So they guy knew exactly what he was doing. That said, I can't believe Activision-bliz didn't realise this would blow up in their faces. They shoud have just said something along the lines of 'No politics plz' and banned him for a a couple of months, instead of going full on crackdown on the whole thing. With all the bad press they've been getting over the new CoD, surely you'd think they want to avoid more drama. You just gotta wonder, how can they spend so many millions in marketing and still get into shit like this? Also, some reddit user had a translation of the chinese Activision-bliz statement that said something ludicrous along the lines of 'we shall defend the country's honor' or something. Can anyone confirm this? If it's true, it's even more hillarious tbh.
shit already happened you know...i wonder when will blizzard release thier statement tho and it better not piss those senators off or after NBA,blizzard could be next
On October 09 2019 20:00 Alejandrisha wrote: what a crock of shit. spineless executives bowing to communist regime. the people who own you are the people you cannot criticize.
They aren't bowing to a communist regime. China is a capitalist regime and Blizzard's actions are fully in line with capitalism. They are still totally spineless of course, and they are fully aware that money owns them.
On October 09 2019 20:00 Alejandrisha wrote: what a crock of shit. spineless executives bowing to communist regime. the people who own you are the people you cannot criticize.
They aren't bowing to a communist regime. China is a capitalist regime and Blizzard's actions are fully in line with capitalism. They are still totally spineless of course, and they are fully aware that money owns them.
there is no capitalism without free press. there are positive externalites in taking a stand against suppression of expression i am not even talking about capitalism in its purest form. don't try to sell me that china is a capitalist state.
Can't remember the exact phrase, but it's a very very very common stock phrase you'll see in lots of official communiques. You can read it as "god bless america" if you will, and shouldn't really read into it more than that.
Er... nope. "The involved players will be banned and the relevant explanations will be immediately terminated. God bless America." Does that sound right?
On October 09 2019 20:00 Alejandrisha wrote: what a crock of shit. spineless executives bowing to communist regime. the people who own you are the people you cannot criticize.
They aren't bowing to a communist regime. China is a capitalist regime and Blizzard's actions are fully in line with capitalism. They are still totally spineless of course, and they are fully aware that money owns them.
there is no capitalism without free press. there are positive externalites in taking a stand against suppression of expression
A free press is not an essential of capitalism, it is an essential of freedom. Two different concepts. Capitalism only needs the flow of money to be concentrated to be spent. And China and their ruling party understands capitalism oh so very well, which is why they can use it to their advantage.
Their capitalistic system undergoes many different descriptions over time, but the most popular one seems to be "state capitalism" at the moment, if you want to read up on how exactly China has captured the world market with its capitalsim.
Can't remember the exact phrase, but it's a very very very common stock phrase you'll see in lots of official communiques. You can read it as "god bless america" if you will, and shouldn't really read into it more than that.
Er... nope. "The involved players will be banned and the relevant explanations will be immediately terminated. God bless America." Does that sound right?
Google translate gives it as "We will, as always, resolutely safeguard national dignity."
That's even worse. Why would blizzard think this would be a great official statement?
On October 09 2019 20:00 Alejandrisha wrote: what a crock of shit. spineless executives bowing to communist regime. the people who own you are the people you cannot criticize.
They aren't bowing to a communist regime. China is a capitalist regime and Blizzard's actions are fully in line with capitalism. They are still totally spineless of course, and they are fully aware that money owns them.
there is no capitalism without free press. there are positive externalites in taking a stand against suppression of expression
A free press is not an essential of capitalism, it is an essential of freedom. Two different concepts. Capitalism only needs the flow of money to be concentrated to be spent. And China and their ruling party understands capitalism oh so very well, which is why they can use it to their advantage.
Their capitalistic system undergoes many different descriptions over time, but the most popular one seems to be "state capitalism" at the moment, if you want to read up on how exactly China has captured the world market with its capitalsim.
capitalism requires non-state controlled media. maybe this isn't in a book but use your head. how can you invest freely and intelligently if the information you are getting about potential leads are filtered through the state's narrative
Can't remember the exact phrase, but it's a very very very common stock phrase you'll see in lots of official communiques. You can read it as "god bless america" if you will, and shouldn't really read into it more than that.
Er... nope. "The involved players will be banned and the relevant explanations will be immediately terminated. God bless America." Does that sound right?
Google translate gives it as "We will, as always, resolutely safeguard national dignity."
That's even worse. Why would blizzard think this would be a great official statement?
Oh, it's not from blizzard. It's from the Hearthstone official account in China, which is managed by NetEase. Basically every Blizzard game in China is controlled by NetEase, they sell the games in their own way and they modify the graphics in game (red blood, dead body etc) to obey Chinese law, etc.
On October 09 2019 20:00 Alejandrisha wrote: what a crock of shit. spineless executives bowing to communist regime. the people who own you are the people you cannot criticize.
They aren't bowing to a communist regime. China is a capitalist regime and Blizzard's actions are fully in line with capitalism. They are still totally spineless of course, and they are fully aware that money owns them.
there is no capitalism without free press. there are positive externalites in taking a stand against suppression of expression
A free press is not an essential of capitalism, it is an essential of freedom. Two different concepts. Capitalism only needs the flow of money to be concentrated to be spent. And China and their ruling party understands capitalism oh so very well, which is why they can use it to their advantage.
Their capitalistic system undergoes many different descriptions over time, but the most popular one seems to be "state capitalism" at the moment, if you want to read up on how exactly China has captured the world market with its capitalsim.
capitalism requires non-state controlled media. maybe this isn't in a book but use your head. how can you invest freely and intelligently if the information you are getting about potential leads are filtered through the state's narrative
From my experience China is more capitalistic than US. Even without the "free" media. Capitalism essentially means you have money in a private posession being invested for profit reasons. Hoarding the profit creates more capital which is invested again to get even more profit. That and nothing more. Nothing about freedom. You can attack the private posession of things in China to some level.
Capitalism doesn't require any freedom other than being able to own something and be able to make profit. If you can make profit and own things, you can have capitalism.
It was a long time ago I had my economy so I may remember thing wrong, but I think I get the capitalism roots still correctly.
On October 09 2019 20:15 Alejandrisha wrote: capitalism requires non-state controlled media. maybe this isn't in a book but use your head. how can you invest freely and intelligently if the information you are getting about potential leads are filtered through the state's narrative
It really does not. You would do well to read up on the history of capitalism and the 19th century in general. I think you'll find the development of press laws etc highly interesting. https://www.revolutionspodcast.com/ is a great start.
Capitalism doesn't require freedom of press, but capitalism does lead to capitalists wanting political power including the power of political speech. They do not especially enjoy extending that freedom to other classes. So in essence capitalism requires freedom of speech for the capitalists but not others. For more on this, read up on the The United Fruit company and how they dealt with freedom of the press.
Things aren't as simple as you would like to believe.
My favourite part in all of this is redditors who barely even play the game / quit years ago, coming back and saying that they love sc2 and sadly have to quit etc. You've already done that.
Obviously it's a tense and chaotic sort of situation. Seeing such people attempting to foist players like me to abruptly quit the game - the only game I've played for years and years - is just laughable.
On October 09 2019 20:00 Alejandrisha wrote: what a crock of shit. spineless executives bowing to communist regime. the people who own you are the people you cannot criticize.
They aren't bowing to a communist regime. China is a capitalist regime and Blizzard's actions are fully in line with capitalism. They are still totally spineless of course, and they are fully aware that money owns them.
there is no capitalism without free press. there are positive externalites in taking a stand against suppression of expression
A free press is not an essential of capitalism, it is an essential of freedom. Two different concepts. Capitalism only needs the flow of money to be concentrated to be spent. And China and their ruling party understands capitalism oh so very well, which is why they can use it to their advantage.
Their capitalistic system undergoes many different descriptions over time, but the most popular one seems to be "state capitalism" at the moment, if you want to read up on how exactly China has captured the world market with its capitalsim.
capitalism requires non-state controlled media. maybe this isn't in a book but use your head. how can you invest freely and intelligently if the information you are getting about potential leads are filtered through the state's narrative
Use your head, capitalism cares not one jot about non-state controlled media. China is not communist anyways. China is the rampant forces capitalism channelled by the state for its own ends. Capitalism has existed even before there was a broad media to control.
On October 09 2019 20:38 sudete wrote: My favourite part in all of this is redditors who barely even play the game / quit years ago, coming back and saying that they love sc2 and sadly have to quit etc. You've already done that.
Obviously it's a tense and chaotic sort of situation. Seeing such people attempting to foist players like me to abruptly quit the game - the only game I've played for years and years - is just laughable.
You're very special, and kudos for resisting the efforts of former players looking to advocate on behalf of a cause they believe worthy. How dare they foist you so.
... First, the foreign affairs discipline 1, strictly abide by the state laws and regulations of the foreign affairs and foreign affairs, all line to listen to the command 2, safeguard national dignity and interests of the state and the credibility of the company, not to do any harm national dignity and reputation of the company.
It sounds weird taken out of context, you have to view it in context.
I obviously think that Blizzard makes amasing games, but they should probably stick to that.
Sadly i think the e-sports scene is way to controlled. I would have hoped that the age of internet-athles would offer a more free thinking playerbase compared to conventional sports. In fact its the other way around. Soccer players say all kinds of political stuff, get in fights, do drugs, drive drunk, are homephobic, rasist ect. ect. That is usually handled by the team itself or has no penalty.
Think of all the bans of streamers based on whatever little reason. The fact that some private company can pull away the basis of your earnings with no trail or official process is dangerous, and not acceptable in modern democracies.
It is sad. If you have a strong political opinion you should be able to use any platform to inform people around you. Thats how a democracy work.
And offcause: Support the freedom fighters of Hongkong! The world do not need more people suppressed by totalitarian regimes
Basically China now feels sufficiently empowered to flex their economic muscle in a way to try and get US and EU corporations to do what they want in regards to censorship, acceding to the party line etc.
Google did not acquiesce to this nonsense, that's why they left China a few years back.
I very much hope companies do not allow China to censor the speech of their people, employees, and competitors. It's unacceptable to me that freedom of speech would be eroded by the communist party in this way, especially since they're just trying to increase their own power at the expense of the people.
On October 09 2019 20:00 Alejandrisha wrote: what a crock of shit. spineless executives bowing to communist regime. the people who own you are the people you cannot criticize.
They aren't bowing to a communist regime. China is a capitalist regime and Blizzard's actions are fully in line with capitalism. They are still totally spineless of course, and they are fully aware that money owns them.
there is no capitalism without free press. there are positive externalites in taking a stand against suppression of expression
A free press is not an essential of capitalism, it is an essential of freedom. Two different concepts. Capitalism only needs the flow of money to be concentrated to be spent. And China and their ruling party understands capitalism oh so very well, which is why they can use it to their advantage.
Their capitalistic system undergoes many different descriptions over time, but the most popular one seems to be "state capitalism" at the moment, if you want to read up on how exactly China has captured the world market with its capitalsim.
capitalism requires non-state controlled media. maybe this isn't in a book but use your head. how can you invest freely and intelligently if the information you are getting about potential leads are filtered through the state's narrative
From my experience China is more capitalistic than US. Even without the "free" media. Capitalism essentially means you have money in a private posession being invested for profit reasons. Hoarding the profit creates more capital which is invested again to get even more profit. That and nothing more. Nothing about freedom. You can attack the private posession of things in China to some level.
Capitalism doesn't require any freedom other than being able to own something and be able to make profit. If you can make profit and own things, you can have capitalism.
It was a long time ago I had my economy so I may remember thing wrong, but I think I get the capitalism roots still correctly.
On October 09 2019 20:15 Alejandrisha wrote: capitalism requires non-state controlled media. maybe this isn't in a book but use your head. how can you invest freely and intelligently if the information you are getting about potential leads are filtered through the state's narrative
It really does not. You would do well to read up on the history of capitalism and the 19th century in general. I think you'll find the development of press laws etc highly interesting. https://www.revolutionspodcast.com/ is a great start.
Capitalism doesn't require freedom of press, but capitalism does lead to capitalists wanting political power including the power of political speech. They do not especially enjoy extending that freedom to other classes. So in essence capitalism requires freedom of speech for the capitalists but not others. For more on this, read up on the The United Fruit company and how they dealt with freedom of the press.
Things aren't as simple as you would like to believe.
On October 09 2019 20:00 Alejandrisha wrote: what a crock of shit. spineless executives bowing to communist regime. the people who own you are the people you cannot criticize.
They aren't bowing to a communist regime. China is a capitalist regime and Blizzard's actions are fully in line with capitalism. They are still totally spineless of course, and they are fully aware that money owns them.
there is no capitalism without free press. there are positive externalites in taking a stand against suppression of expression
A free press is not an essential of capitalism, it is an essential of freedom. Two different concepts. Capitalism only needs the flow of money to be concentrated to be spent. And China and their ruling party understands capitalism oh so very well, which is why they can use it to their advantage.
Their capitalistic system undergoes many different descriptions over time, but the most popular one seems to be "state capitalism" at the moment, if you want to read up on how exactly China has captured the world market with its capitalsim.
capitalism requires non-state controlled media. maybe this isn't in a book but use your head. how can you invest freely and intelligently if the information you are getting about potential leads are filtered through the state's narrative
Use your head, capitalism cares not one jot about non-state controlled media. China is not communist anyways. China is the rampant forces capitalism channelled by the state for its own ends. Capitalism has existed even before there was a broad media to control.
thanks for the input. i will look into it more. i haven't viewed china as a capitalist state because of the regime's stranglehold on media. i suppose i was too quick to assume that this would funnel money into state-sanctioned enterprises. but at the end of the day these are still enterprises.
On October 09 2019 19:26 juicop wrote: "for political statement " Now thats funny. Because they want the exact opposite. They dont want a political statement. Idiots just interpret this bullshit as such. So are they supposed to have political conflicts all day long in their shows? What about Ukraine-Russia? What about Africa? Middle East of course. South America Drug War. Holy shit, what if every asshole puts this shit into Hearthstone Tournaments? Wouldnt that be great? Who is going to represent both sides? What are those tournaments all about? Btw: Remember Free Tibet? What happend to that shit? Do people still protest for that? Or is it done? No fake interest anymore, am i right?
What about punishing casters than? Should they be punished whenever random guy will shout "KILL THE INFIDELS" on the tournament or interview?
On October 09 2019 19:26 juicop wrote: "for political statement " Now thats funny. Because they want the exact opposite. They dont want a political statement. Idiots just interpret this bullshit as such. So are they supposed to have political conflicts all day long in their shows? What about Ukraine-Russia? What about Africa? Middle East of course. South America Drug War. Holy shit, what if every asshole puts this shit into Hearthstone Tournaments? Wouldnt that be great? Who is going to represent both sides? What are those tournaments all about? Btw: Remember Free Tibet? What happend to that shit? Do people still protest for that? Or is it done? No fake interest anymore, am i right?
What about punishing casters than? Should they be punished whenever random guy will shout "KILL THE INFIDELS" on the tournament or interview?
Well that depends on the reaction. The question is what reaction Blizz was expecting - if simple - you can't say that on the stream, we don't support this statement and we're against this - would be sufficient.
On October 09 2019 19:26 juicop wrote: "for political statement " Now thats funny. Because they want the exact opposite. They dont want a political statement. Idiots just interpret this bullshit as such. So are they supposed to have political conflicts all day long in their shows? What about Ukraine-Russia? What about Africa? Middle East of course. South America Drug War. Holy shit, what if every asshole puts this shit into Hearthstone Tournaments? Wouldnt that be great? Who is going to represent both sides? What are those tournaments all about? Btw: Remember Free Tibet? What happend to that shit? Do people still protest for that? Or is it done? No fake interest anymore, am i right?
What about punishing casters than? Should they be punished whenever random guy will shout "KILL THE INFIDELS" on the tournament or interview?
Well that depends on the reaction. The question is what reaction Blizz was expecting - if simple - you can't say that on the stream, we don't support this statement and we're against this - would be sufficient.
if any caster would ever say "we don't support this statement and we're against this" their heads would roll on reddit 5 minutes after saying that. Rightfully so.
On October 09 2019 19:26 juicop wrote: "for political statement " Now thats funny. Because they want the exact opposite. They dont want a political statement. Idiots just interpret this bullshit as such. So are they supposed to have political conflicts all day long in their shows? What about Ukraine-Russia? What about Africa? Middle East of course. South America Drug War. Holy shit, what if every asshole puts this shit into Hearthstone Tournaments? Wouldnt that be great? Who is going to represent both sides? What are those tournaments all about? Btw: Remember Free Tibet? What happend to that shit? Do people still protest for that? Or is it done? No fake interest anymore, am i right?
What about punishing casters than? Should they be punished whenever random guy will shout "KILL THE INFIDELS" on the tournament or interview?
Well, the fact is that they are involved in this certain case. What happened was: In the interview, the gamer wore a gas mask - which is iconic for HK protesters. The casters talked to him, then at the end they said "OK no more questions. Now you say the eight words and we end the interview." And they clapped after he said the sentence. So.. they kind of encouraged it, so it's no surprise that they are also punished.
Guess it's really finally time for me to leave starcraft. Sigh. Good bye everyone, how long has it been? 8 years?
I am 30 now and I just can't stand by and ignore these issues anymore. Thank you all for the memories.
The youngsters are in the front line facing expired tear gas, rubber bullets, 10 years jail time and fucking rape apparently (I have a hospital source confirming me on this).
‘Sports and politics shouldn’t mix’ is such bullshit, it already has inextricable links and everything is political anyway to some degree. Not being able to express solidarity with your people is just as political as an individual actively doing so.
Sport has a noble tradition in this domain, being an activity that both inspires folks young and old alike, as well as forming a meeting ground that brings people together in friendly (or unfriendly) competition across borders.
I highly disagree with this, not quite as bad as staging the football World Cup of 2022 in a desert where homosexuality is illegal, but pretty bloody irritated.
I hope gamers can do more than Reddit posts and actually stick by a boycott if this is something they feel strongly about, gamers tend to be good at making noise and then spending their cash anyway, otherwise EA and Activision etc might have had to change their more egregious business practices.
On October 09 2019 20:00 Alejandrisha wrote: what a crock of shit. spineless executives bowing to communist regime. the people who own you are the people you cannot criticize.
They aren't bowing to a communist regime. China is a capitalist regime and Blizzard's actions are fully in line with capitalism. They are still totally spineless of course, and they are fully aware that money owns them.
there is no capitalism without free press. there are positive externalites in taking a stand against suppression of expression
A free press is not an essential of capitalism, it is an essential of freedom. Two different concepts. Capitalism only needs the flow of money to be concentrated to be spent. And China and their ruling party understands capitalism oh so very well, which is why they can use it to their advantage.
Their capitalistic system undergoes many different descriptions over time, but the most popular one seems to be "state capitalism" at the moment, if you want to read up on how exactly China has captured the world market with its capitalsim.
capitalism requires non-state controlled media. maybe this isn't in a book but use your head. how can you invest freely and intelligently if the information you are getting about potential leads are filtered through the state's narrative
As a latin american I can say thats not true, not only that but capitalism profits a lot from controlled media.
On October 09 2019 22:14 ETisME wrote: Guess it's really finally time for me to leave starcraft. Sigh. Good bye everyone, how long has it been? 8 years?
I am 30 now and I just can't stand by and ignore these issues anymore. Thank you all for the memories.
The youngsters are in the front line facing expired tear gas, rubber bullets, 10 years jail time and fucking rape apparently (I have a hospital source confirming me on this).
This is the least I can do.
but lets not forget this! you can always watch starcraft on channels that aint related to blizzard
On October 09 2019 22:14 ETisME wrote: Guess it's really finally time for me to leave starcraft. Sigh. Good bye everyone, how long has it been? 8 years?
I am 30 now and I just can't stand by and ignore these issues anymore. Thank you all for the memories.
The youngsters are in the front line facing expired tear gas, rubber bullets, 10 years jail time and fucking rape apparently (I have a hospital source confirming me on this).
This is the least I can do.
You can still stay with us here on TL even if you quit starcraft. We here support you, even if there's a loud minority among us who don't.
Blizzard is a profit company that is trying to secure a market in China, it is doing what it should be doing based on its financial standpoint. The question is - which may seem strange a bit - why there is so much attention to HK situation? To me this whole thing is nothing more than propaganda and it in reality it might be much smaller than the media trying to make out of it.
I'm not saying that it is perfect there but there is much exaggeration in how the media covers the situation mainly because the relationship between China and the West is not in its best at the moment. Same coverage would happen / happened during the Ukraine - Russia Crimea.
On October 09 2019 22:47 Wrath wrote: The question is - which may seem strange a bit - why there is so much attention to HK situation? To me this whole thing is nothing more than propaganda and it in reality it might be much smaller than the media trying to make out of it.
I'm not saying that it is perfect there but there is much exaggeration in how the media covers the situation mainly because the relationship between China and the West is not in its best at the moment. Same coverage would happen / happened during the Ukraine - Russia Crimea.
So much? There's almost no news coverage or condemnation from world powers for what is seriously developing into a 2020 nazi germany 2.0.
Most of it's being swept under the rug for the sake of profit.. if you weren't looking out, maybe you're just not aware of most of the situation because of that. Do some research. HK is one of many egregious violations.
Blizzard is no longer ignoring the political upset, they just sided very publically and unapologetically with the tyrannical regime - presumably because they'd make more money that way.
Pretending that genocide among other things is not happening won't make it go away; in fact it's getting worse quite quickly. Every day that goes by without you and everybody around you condemning the chinese government is more bodies on the pile and history will not look kindly on those that buried their heads in the sand.
On October 09 2019 22:47 Wrath wrote: Blizzard is a profit company that is trying to secure a market in China, it is doing what it should be doing based on its financial standpoint. The question is - which may seem strange a bit - why there is so much attention to HK situation? To me this whole thing is nothing more than propaganda and it in reality it might be much smaller than the media trying to make out of it.
I'm not saying that it is perfect there but there is much exaggeration in how the media covers the situation mainly because the relationship between China and the West is not in its best at the moment. Same coverage would happen / happened during the Ukraine - Russia Crimea.
reading this hurts. There's been so much info on this and it's not coming from the media. If you haven't seen it then go to google.
I think there are very few things that are worth giving up Starcraft. I love the game. But this is one of them.
Honestly, it would be epic if those of you going to Blizzcon would make some sort of show of support for the movement in Hong Kong. Maybe wear hot pink or something.
I understand that Blizzard doesn't want to jeopardize the Chinese market, but some things are worth more than money.
On October 09 2019 22:53 Ellipsesdi wrote: I think there are very few things that are worth giving up Starcraft. I love the game. But this is one of them.
Honestly, it would be epic if those of you going to Blizzcon would make some sort of show of support for the movement in Hong Kong. Maybe wear hot pink or something.
I understand that Blizzard doesn't want to jeopardize the Chinese market, but some things are worth more than money.
Wear a bunch of T-shirts featuring the ‘beloved’ cartoon character Hong Kong Phooey. Obvious enough to make the point, plausibly deniable enough to not get booted out of Blizzcon.
Plus he’s basically the only property I can recall from my childhood that hasn’t been rebooted yet, so would be nice to see him again.
Having not seen the interview (what with it being in Chinese and all), it's hard to say whether or not Blizzard are overreacting. However, as far as the player goes, it's only a one-year ban right? With this action, they ensure that none of their games' players, at least in the short-term, will involve their branding in politically sensitive topics under penalty of at least a one year punting. After one year, the guy can return, can he not?
Blizzard has a business to run and doesn't want to be on China's shit list, even if it means kissing some totalitarian ass and ruining some careers along the way. The question, going forward, is whether this decision is good or bad for business.
Personally, I don't play any more Activision games (none since Modern Warfare 2). Also, in my opinion, Starcraft 2 is the best thing Blizzard has made (since Broodwar) and probably ever will make again, and is therefore the only Blizz game worth playing. None of these decisions are based on their politics, but the quality of their products, in my opinion. You could say I'm already boycotting all their trash for non-political reasons, but not playing Starcraft 2 is a bridge I'm not willing to cross.
This will surely blow over once people come to terms with the idea they had to do something to appear tough on anti-China activism at their events. We can only hope that something doesn't happen to this lad in the background, because... China doesn't fire dissidents, they kill them.
On October 09 2019 22:20 Wombat_NI wrote: ‘Sports and politics shouldn’t mix’ is such bullshit, it already has inextricable links and everything is political anyway to some degree. Not being able to express solidarity with your people is just as political as an individual actively doing so.
Sport has a noble tradition in this domain, being an activity that both inspires folks young and old alike, as well as forming a meeting ground that brings people together in friendly (or unfriendly) competition across borders.
I highly disagree with this, not quite as bad as staging the football World Cup of 2022 in a desert where homosexuality is illegal, but pretty bloody irritated.
I hope gamers can do more than Reddit posts and actually stick by a boycott if this is something they feel strongly about, gamers tend to be good at making noise and then spending their cash anyway, otherwise EA and Activision etc might have had to change their more egregious business practices.
Very true! In many countries sports and politics are intrinsically linked. The separation of Sports and Politics is a very American attitude that I dislike and certainly won't follow!
On October 09 2019 22:20 Wombat_NI wrote: ‘Sports and politics shouldn’t mix’ is such bullshit, it already has inextricable links and everything is political anyway to some degree. Not being able to express solidarity with your people is just as political as an individual actively doing so.
Sport has a noble tradition in this domain, being an activity that both inspires folks young and old alike, as well as forming a meeting ground that brings people together in friendly (or unfriendly) competition across borders.
I highly disagree with this, not quite as bad as staging the football World Cup of 2022 in a desert where homosexuality is illegal, but pretty bloody irritated.
I hope gamers can do more than Reddit posts and actually stick by a boycott if this is something they feel strongly about, gamers tend to be good at making noise and then spending their cash anyway, otherwise EA and Activision etc might have had to change their more egregious business practices.
Very true! In many countries sports and politics are intrinsically linked. The separation of Sports and Politics is a very American attitude that I dislike and certainly won't follow!
You shouldn't mistake the separation of partisan politics in North American sports for separation of politics from sports. Core values and causes that aren't matters of which side of the political spectrum you belong to are still represented heavily in North American sports. You can say that for any league in any region.
I just don't get all the "don't mix politics and sports" shit. Like do you guys don't remember 1980 Olympic Games in Moscow? Do you not remember the 1984 Olympic Games in LA? And I'm talking about using Olympic Games, the games that should be above politics and all the conflicts, the games that should meet the highest moral grounds. Even the god damn 1936 Berlin Olympic Games were not boycotted. And they were in the Nazi Germany!!!! (and Jesse Owens send a message who's the superior race )
So can we stop being hypocritical and pretend there's something like "ooh, don't mix politics and sport"? Again, read the ideals of olympic games.
(let's ignore the fact Olympic Games went away from their ideals really, really, and I mean really, fast )
My expertise on politics is not vast enough to comment further on this than the fact I do not support Blizzard's decision. Because you know, democracy is kind of a neat thing.
In the midst of all this I can't help feel bad for the people that get their paycheck from Blizzard, whether they be StarCraft people or not, who have to make their decision to keep their mouths shut or criticize their employer's actions. Welp, I guess here's to waiting the BlizzCon broadcast will be an absolute shitshow because of all the people showing support for Honk Kong.
I know most corporations do really care about money mostly over everything else(it is why they are built in the firstplace) but damn seeing it firsthand is disappointing.
On October 09 2019 15:17 Silvanel wrote: I was wondering if this topic comes up. I am actually bothered by this. Not sure what can i do though other than not watching SC.
Books, other video games, tons of series.
There are also other esports content like dota2 , lol, those 2d fighting games that have as much content sc does.
On October 09 2019 23:39 goody153 wrote: I know most corporations do really care about money mostly over everything else(it is why they are built in the firstplace) but damn seeing it firsthand is disappointing.
On October 09 2019 15:17 Silvanel wrote: I was wondering if this topic comes up. I am actually bothered by this. Not sure what can i do though other than not watching SC.
Books, other video games, tons of series.
There are also other esports content like dota2 , lol, those 2d fighting games that have as much content sc does.
I know how to spend my time. I meant it in a sense "i dont know how else i can help in this matter - other than not watching SC" .
Can't remember the exact phrase, but it's a very very very common stock phrase you'll see in lots of official communiques. You can read it as "god bless america" if you will, and shouldn't really read into it more than that.
Er... nope. "The involved players will be banned and the relevant explanations will be immediately terminated. God bless America." Does that sound right?
Nfl literally banned a player for standing up against police brutality and the common response was dont fuck with out flag god bless america.
When this player signed up for that tournament, he accepted the rules. He simply broke the rules, ended up banning himself.
Blizzard did the right thing. This is a video game company, not a political platform. If you are concerned about human rights in Hong Kong the are other ways, platforms to do that.
You should not force a video game company to be political. There are no political comments in the Olympics, Football, Formula1 etc. as well.
I dont want video games, sports events to be filled with politics. Viewers are there to be entertained, competitors are there to compete, and not to be forced to eat political bs 0-24.
Can't remember the exact phrase, but it's a very very very common stock phrase you'll see in lots of official communiques. You can read it as "god bless america" if you will, and shouldn't really read into it more than that.
Er... nope. "The involved players will be banned and the relevant explanations will be immediately terminated. God bless America." Does that sound right?
Nfl literally banned a player for standing up against police brutality and the common response was dont fuck with out flag god bless america.
It's actually almost the same thing lol
Yes I also think that is a bad thing. I never watched NFL though, so there was no way for me to lower my interaction. With Blizzard there is. So I do it here. Though there isn't much money I can pull back since they have no products worth spending money on any longer, even before this. So only thing I could do is uninstall anything I had remaining and not re-install or buy if they ever start making games again.
I am an ordinary Chinese.,a player of SC or even a fan of Blizzard.
How about HK? Some Westerners,especially Americans,always trying to impose your own views on others.Though we have different culture and backgroud.It's like inviting Muslims to eat pork.
All people are support freedom of speech and democracy,but Japan has a Emperor，England has a Queen，US and France dont have .The same thing looks different.
And what the player of HK said？The mob's slogan and the mob's slogan.“光复香港，时代革命”means "bring Hong Kong back to colonial times , this is Revolution of the Times."
if u want to express political aspirations ， Justice and Legality is the only way .Instead of wearing masks and throwing petrol bombs at police, burning shops and robbing goods.
In fact, only a few young people in Hong Kong participated in the movement.Just like that HK player. No police attacked them ，u believe in Hong Kong's young unemployed vagrants，But u do not believe that the Hong Kong Police, the Hong Kong Government and the backbone of Hong Kong's Society.
No One can say HK is not belong to CN，and No One can support Riots in HK.This is a riot masked by democracy and freedom.
And when we talk about Taiwan , Taiwan is not a nation, if u really want to say,it is Republic of China，Former Government of Greater China，Substituted by the People's Republic of China after 1949.
Resolution 2758 of the General Assembly of the United Nations was adopted at the 26th session of the General Assembly of the United Nations on October 25, 1971.
it acknowledged that the representative of its government(people's Repulic of China) is the only legitimate representative of China in the United Nations.
Taiwan is called Repulic of China,Look at the Constitution of Taiwan.You may even find that his capital is Nanjing.The Taiwan issue is like the legacy of the American Civil War.
In addition, I would like to say that in China mainland the territorial issue of Hong Kong, Macao and Taiwan is Extremely more serious than that of racism in the United States, because it involves the history of forced semi-colonialism in modern China, the First and Second World Wars, and the complex of traditional Chinese culture. It is also one of the core issues of Chinese civilization and Confucian civilization.
Talking about this issue to a Chinese is like preaching to kill his father and insult his mother in East Asia.
Think about the NBA.
Of course, ALL Chinese support freedom and democracy.
But propaganda of freedom and democracy, disguised support for the independence of Hong Kong and Taiwan, and the current riots in Hong Kong will greatly stimulate the Chinese people, especially in the last 20 years, who have made great achievements.
Because such problems are the core of Chinese culture, or Confucian culture.
So any question about this will make the Chinese feel unusually humiliated and regard it as a very serious discrimination. It's not just about race, it's about discrimination against the whole Chinese civilization. It includes history, religion, philosophy and social morality.
AND I just found out https://www.rankedftw.com/，change the Flag and Name of The People's Republic of China.At present, some players'forums in China have regarded it as naked and serious discrimination.
But it's not that serious yet, but this kind of behavior will gradually destroy China's StarCraft, and other Blizzard games in China.
And anyone from mainland China or Hong Kong(who had lived in colonial times) or Macau（All）would regard such a thing as an insult, like calling a black nigger.
I am very disappointed with what has happened internationally recently. We understand the international situation and the confrontation between different ideologies, cultures, political and economic interests.
But we also hope that sports itself, or the spirit of sports, can respect each other, region, race, culture.
Some people know Chinese culture and history very well, but still choose such a way of disrespecting China. It's very disappointing. Is it true that in other parts of the world, people live only to oppose China?
On October 10 2019 01:04 Spirit_HUN wrote: When this player signed up for that tournament, he accepted the rules. He simply broke the rules, ended up banning himself.
Blizzard did the right thing. This is a video game company, not a political platform. If you are concerned about human rights in Hong Kong the are other ways, platforms to do that.
You should not force a video game company to be political. There are no political comments in the Olympics, Football, Formula1 etc. as well.
I dont want video games, sports events to be filled with politics. Viewers are there to be entertained, competitors are there to compete, and not to be forced to eat political bs 0-24.
They’re not a political platform, but they do have a clear political position here which is tow whatever line the Chinese authorities want them to tow.
Seems to me it was a pretty good platform for the guy to use really, although the attention it gained was more from Blizzard’s reaction than his actions specifically. Gained a fuckload of traction even US Senators are wading in, doubt he’d have been able to elicit such a response with a tweet.
China and especially the Gulf States use sport as an extension of their soft power, they’ve made it political already, likewise the Cold War saw sporting events like the Olympics as an ideological battleground.
I am an ordinary Chinese.,a player of SC or even a fan of Blizzard.
How about HK? Some Westerners,especially Americans,always trying to impose your own views on others.Though we have different culture and backgroud.It's like inviting Muslims to eat pork.
All people are support freedom of speech and democracy,but Japan has a Emperor，England has a Queen，US and France dont have .The same thing looks different.
And what the player of HK said？The mob's slogan and the mob's slogan.“光复香港，时代革命”means "bring Hong Kong back to colonial times , this is Revolution of the Times."
if u want to express political aspirations ， Justice and Legality is the only way .Instead of wearing masks and throwing petrol bombs at police, burning shops and robbing goods.
In fact, only a few young people in Hong Kong participated in the movement.Just like that HK player. No police attacked them ，u believe in Hong Kong's young unemployed vagrants，But u do not believe that the Hong Kong Police, the Hong Kong Government and the backbone of Hong Kong's Society.
No One can say HK is not belong to CN，and No One can support Riots in HK.This is a riot masked by democracy and freedom.
And when we talk about Taiwan , Taiwan is not a nation, if u really want to say,it is Republic of China，Former Government of Greater China，Substituted by the People's Republic of China after 1949.
Resolution 2758 of the General Assembly of the United Nations was adopted at the 26th session of the General Assembly of the United Nations on October 25, 1971.
it acknowledged that the representative of its government(people's Repulic of China) is the only legitimate representative of China in the United Nations.
Taiwan is called Repulic of China,Look at the Constitution of Taiwan.You may even find that his capital is Nanjing.The Taiwan issue is like the legacy of the American Civil War.
In addition, I would like to say that in China mainland the territorial issue of Hong Kong, Macao and Taiwan is Extremely more serious than that of racism in the United States, because it involves the history of forced semi-colonialism in modern China, the First and Second World Wars, and the complex of traditional Chinese culture. It is also one of the core issues of Chinese civilization and Confucian civilization.
Talking about this issue to a Chinese is like preaching to kill his father and insult his mother in East Asia.
Think about the NBA.
Of course, ALL Chinese support freedom and democracy.
But propaganda of freedom and democracy, disguised support for the independence of Hong Kong and Taiwan, and the current riots in Hong Kong will greatly stimulate the Chinese people, especially in the last 20 years, who have made great achievements.
Because such problems are the core of Chinese culture, or Confucian culture.
So any question about this will make the Chinese feel unusually humiliated and regard it as a very serious discrimination. It's not just about race, it's about discrimination against the whole Chinese civilization. It includes history, religion, philosophy and social morality.
AND I just found out https://www.rankedftw.com/，change the Flag and Name of The People's Republic of China.At present, some players'forums in China have regarded it as naked and serious discrimination.
But it's not that serious yet, but this kind of behavior will gradually destroy China's StarCraft, and other Blizzard games in China.
And anyone from mainland China or Hong Kong(who had lived in colonial times) or Macau（All）would regard such a thing as an insult, like calling a black nigger.
I am very disappointed with what has happened internationally recently. We understand the international situation and the confrontation between different ideologies, cultures, political and economic interests.
But we also hope that sports itself, or the spirit of sports, can respect each other, region, race, culture.
Some people know Chinese culture and history very well, but still choose such a way of disrespecting China. It's very disappointing. Is it true that in other parts of the world, people live only to oppose China?
The People’s Propaganda Machine found this thread, I see.
On October 10 2019 01:04 Spirit_HUN wrote: When this player signed up for that tournament, he accepted the rules. He simply broke the rules, ended up banning himself.
Blizzard did the right thing. This is a video game company, not a political platform. If you are concerned about human rights in Hong Kong the are other ways, platforms to do that.
You should not force a video game company to be political. There are no political comments in the Olympics, Football, Formula1 etc. as well.
I dont want video games, sports events to be filled with politics. Viewers are there to be entertained, competitors are there to compete, and not to be forced to eat political bs 0-24.
They’re not a political platform, but they do have a clear political position here which is tow whatever line the Chinese authorities want them to tow.
Seems to me it was a pretty good platform for the guy to use really, although the attention it gained was more from Blizzard’s reaction than his actions specifically. Gained a fuckload of traction even US Senators are wading in, doubt he’d have been able to elicit such a response with a tweet.
China and especially the Gulf States use sport as an extension of their soft power, they’ve made it political already, likewise the Cold War saw sporting events like the Olympics as an ideological battleground.
if it is not an political extension of soft power,why some officials of the organization are talking about politics？if not,STOP talking.As an official, you can't blatantly confront the Chinese public opinion while thinking that discrimination against Chinese people, Chinese culture and support separatism and violence.
I am an ordinary Chinese.,a player of SC or even a fan of Blizzard.
How about HK? Some Westerners,especially Americans,always trying to impose your own views on others.Though we have different culture and backgroud.It's like inviting Muslims to eat pork.
All people are support freedom of speech and democracy,but Japan has a Emperor，England has a Queen，US and France dont have .The same thing looks different.
And what the player of HK said？The mob's slogan and the mob's slogan.“光复香港，时代革命”means "bring Hong Kong back to colonial times , this is Revolution of the Times."
if u want to express political aspirations ， Justice and Legality is the only way .Instead of wearing masks and throwing petrol bombs at police, burning shops and robbing goods.
In fact, only a few young people in Hong Kong participated in the movement.Just like that HK player. No police attacked them ，u believe in Hong Kong's young unemployed vagrants，But u do not believe that the Hong Kong Police, the Hong Kong Government and the backbone of Hong Kong's Society.
No One can say HK is not belong to CN，and No One can support Riots in HK.This is a riot masked by democracy and freedom.
And when we talk about Taiwan , Taiwan is not a nation, if u really want to say,it is Republic of China，Former Government of Greater China，Substituted by the People's Republic of China after 1949.
Resolution 2758 of the General Assembly of the United Nations was adopted at the 26th session of the General Assembly of the United Nations on October 25, 1971.
it acknowledged that the representative of its government(people's Repulic of China) is the only legitimate representative of China in the United Nations.
Taiwan is called Repulic of China,Look at the Constitution of Taiwan.You may even find that his capital is Nanjing.The Taiwan issue is like the legacy of the American Civil War.
In addition, I would like to say that in China mainland the territorial issue of Hong Kong, Macao and Taiwan is Extremely more serious than that of racism in the United States, because it involves the history of forced semi-colonialism in modern China, the First and Second World Wars, and the complex of traditional Chinese culture. It is also one of the core issues of Chinese civilization and Confucian civilization.
Talking about this issue to a Chinese is like preaching to kill his father and insult his mother in East Asia.
Think about the NBA.
Of course, ALL Chinese support freedom and democracy.
But propaganda of freedom and democracy, disguised support for the independence of Hong Kong and Taiwan, and the current riots in Hong Kong will greatly stimulate the Chinese people, especially in the last 20 years, who have made great achievements.
Because such problems are the core of Chinese culture, or Confucian culture.
So any question about this will make the Chinese feel unusually humiliated and regard it as a very serious discrimination. It's not just about race, it's about discrimination against the whole Chinese civilization. It includes history, religion, philosophy and social morality.
AND I just found out https://www.rankedftw.com/，change the Flag and Name of The People's Republic of China.At present, some players'forums in China have regarded it as naked and serious discrimination.
But it's not that serious yet, but this kind of behavior will gradually destroy China's StarCraft, and other Blizzard games in China.
And anyone from mainland China or Hong Kong(who had lived in colonial times) or Macau（All）would regard such a thing as an insult, like calling a black nigger.
I am very disappointed with what has happened internationally recently. We understand the international situation and the confrontation between different ideologies, cultures, political and economic interests.
But we also hope that sports itself, or the spirit of sports, can respect each other, region, race, culture.
Some people know Chinese culture and history very well, but still choose such a way of disrespecting China. It's very disappointing. Is it true that in other parts of the world, people live only to oppose China?
The People’s Propaganda Machine found this thread, I see.
Whatever you say, you think it's horrible propaganda from the Chinese government or from the common people of China. I hope you will continue to support the disintegration of Britain and the riots in France, the United States, and the freedom fighters in the Middle East.
I am an ordinary Chinese.,a player of SC or even a fan of Blizzard.
How about HK? Some Westerners,especially Americans,always trying to impose your own views on others.Though we have different culture and backgroud.It's like inviting Muslims to eat pork.
All people are support freedom of speech and democracy,but Japan has a Emperor，England has a Queen，US and France dont have .The same thing looks different.
And what the player of HK said？The mob's slogan and the mob's slogan.“光复香港，时代革命”means "bring Hong Kong back to colonial times , this is Revolution of the Times."
if u want to express political aspirations ， Justice and Legality is the only way .Instead of wearing masks and throwing petrol bombs at police, burning shops and robbing goods.
In fact, only a few young people in Hong Kong participated in the movement.Just like that HK player. No police attacked them ，u believe in Hong Kong's young unemployed vagrants，But u do not believe that the Hong Kong Police, the Hong Kong Government and the backbone of Hong Kong's Society.
No One can say HK is not belong to CN，and No One can support Riots in HK.This is a riot masked by democracy and freedom.
And when we talk about Taiwan , Taiwan is not a nation, if u really want to say,it is Republic of China，Former Government of Greater China，Substituted by the People's Republic of China after 1949.
Resolution 2758 of the General Assembly of the United Nations was adopted at the 26th session of the General Assembly of the United Nations on October 25, 1971.
it acknowledged that the representative of its government(people's Repulic of China) is the only legitimate representative of China in the United Nations.
Taiwan is called Repulic of China,Look at the Constitution of Taiwan.You may even find that his capital is Nanjing.The Taiwan issue is like the legacy of the American Civil War.
In addition, I would like to say that in China mainland the territorial issue of Hong Kong, Macao and Taiwan is Extremely more serious than that of racism in the United States, because it involves the history of forced semi-colonialism in modern China, the First and Second World Wars, and the complex of traditional Chinese culture. It is also one of the core issues of Chinese civilization and Confucian civilization.
Talking about this issue to a Chinese is like preaching to kill his father and insult his mother in East Asia.
Think about the NBA.
Of course, ALL Chinese support freedom and democracy.
But propaganda of freedom and democracy, disguised support for the independence of Hong Kong and Taiwan, and the current riots in Hong Kong will greatly stimulate the Chinese people, especially in the last 20 years, who have made great achievements.
Because such problems are the core of Chinese culture, or Confucian culture.
So any question about this will make the Chinese feel unusually humiliated and regard it as a very serious discrimination. It's not just about race, it's about discrimination against the whole Chinese civilization. It includes history, religion, philosophy and social morality.
AND I just found out https://www.rankedftw.com/，change the Flag and Name of The People's Republic of China.At present, some players'forums in China have regarded it as naked and serious discrimination.
But it's not that serious yet, but this kind of behavior will gradually destroy China's StarCraft, and other Blizzard games in China.
And anyone from mainland China or Hong Kong(who had lived in colonial times) or Macau（All）would regard such a thing as an insult, like calling a black nigger.
I am very disappointed with what has happened internationally recently. We understand the international situation and the confrontation between different ideologies, cultures, political and economic interests.
But we also hope that sports itself, or the spirit of sports, can respect each other, region, race, culture.
Some people know Chinese culture and history very well, but still choose such a way of disrespecting China. It's very disappointing. Is it true that in other parts of the world, people live only to oppose China?
The People’s Propaganda Machine found this thread, I see.
Well... he's just posting whatever he had learned. The big machine doesn't care about TL forum, it's too small. He just feels that he needs to do something to help no matter how little, although the entire post sounds worse than a high school essay...
Just to be safe, I'll preface this by saying that the following are my own views and are in no way, shape or form an official stance of TL.net or the wider Teamliquid organisation (of which I'm not even part of).
Do enlighten me, at which point of "we support freedom of speech" is the section about shooting protestors with live ammunition? How long after that do the tanks roll in?
On October 10 2019 01:04 Spirit_HUN wrote: When this player signed up for that tournament, he accepted the rules. He simply broke the rules, ended up banning himself.
Blizzard did the right thing. This is a video game company, not a political platform. If you are concerned about human rights in Hong Kong the are other ways, platforms to do that.
You should not force a video game company to be political. There are no political comments in the Olympics, Football, Formula1 etc. as well.
I dont want video games, sports events to be filled with politics. Viewers are there to be entertained, competitors are there to compete, and not to be forced to eat political bs 0-24.
They’re not a political platform, but they do have a clear political position here which is tow whatever line the Chinese authorities want them to tow.
Seems to me it was a pretty good platform for the guy to use really, although the attention it gained was more from Blizzard’s reaction than his actions specifically. Gained a fuckload of traction even US Senators are wading in, doubt he’d have been able to elicit such a response with a tweet.
China and especially the Gulf States use sport as an extension of their soft power, they’ve made it political already, likewise the Cold War saw sporting events like the Olympics as an ideological battleground.
if it is not an political extension of soft power,why some officials of the organization are talking about politics？if not,STOP talking.As an official, you can't blatantly confront the Chinese public opinion while thinking that discrimination against Chinese people, Chinese culture and support separatism and violence.
Why not?
National self-determination is a key principle of geopolitics in the modern era.
Considering a bomb blew in the windows of my house when I was but a babe, I’m quite happy that the United States interceded and helped facilitate a peace here that respected both of the national identities in our wee country.
I would personally like to see more of China and its culture emerge onto the world stage, an old and venerable culture indeed, whose people have accomplished remarkable things in the last few decades especially.
If it’s by trampling on everyone and expecting Westerners to bend to their whims and where criticism is construed as a grievous insult then, no thanks.
On October 10 2019 01:12 chuchuchu wrote: All people are support freedom of speech and democracy,but Japan has a Emperor，England has a Queen，US and France dont have .The same thing looks different.
I can not for the life of me guess whether this is a troll, of if he's actually brainwashed enough to think that a totalitarian regime is the same as Japan and England because they have a hyped up Emperor/Queen who are as such in name only, and doesn't actually have any real power.
On October 10 2019 01:31 jy_9876543210 wrote: Well... he's just posting whatever he had learned. The big machine doesn't care about TL forum, it's too small. He just feels that he needs to do something to help no matter how little, although the entire post sounds worse than a high school essay...
You severely underestimate the Chinese troll farm. They care about your mom's Facebook posts.
I am an ordinary Chinese.,a player of SC or even a fan of Blizzard.
How about HK? Some Westerners,especially Americans,always trying to impose your own views on others.Though we have different culture and backgroud.It's like inviting Muslims to eat pork.
All people are support freedom of speech and democracy,but Japan has a Emperor，England has a Queen，US and France dont have .The same thing looks different.
And what the player of HK said？The mob's slogan and the mob's slogan.“光复香港，时代革命”means "bring Hong Kong back to colonial times , this is Revolution of the Times."
if u want to express political aspirations ， Justice and Legality is the only way .Instead of wearing masks and throwing petrol bombs at police, burning shops and robbing goods.
In fact, only a few young people in Hong Kong participated in the movement.Just like that HK player. No police attacked them ，u believe in Hong Kong's young unemployed vagrants，But u do not believe that the Hong Kong Police, the Hong Kong Government and the backbone of Hong Kong's Society.
No One can say HK is not belong to CN，and No One can support Riots in HK.This is a riot masked by democracy and freedom.
And when we talk about Taiwan , Taiwan is not a nation, if u really want to say,it is Republic of China，Former Government of Greater China，Substituted by the People's Republic of China after 1949.
Resolution 2758 of the General Assembly of the United Nations was adopted at the 26th session of the General Assembly of the United Nations on October 25, 1971.
it acknowledged that the representative of its government(people's Repulic of China) is the only legitimate representative of China in the United Nations.
Taiwan is called Repulic of China,Look at the Constitution of Taiwan.You may even find that his capital is Nanjing.The Taiwan issue is like the legacy of the American Civil War.
In addition, I would like to say that in China mainland the territorial issue of Hong Kong, Macao and Taiwan is Extremely more serious than that of racism in the United States, because it involves the history of forced semi-colonialism in modern China, the First and Second World Wars, and the complex of traditional Chinese culture. It is also one of the core issues of Chinese civilization and Confucian civilization.
Talking about this issue to a Chinese is like preaching to kill his father and insult his mother in East Asia.
Think about the NBA.
Of course, ALL Chinese support freedom and democracy.
But propaganda of freedom and democracy, disguised support for the independence of Hong Kong and Taiwan, and the current riots in Hong Kong will greatly stimulate the Chinese people, especially in the last 20 years, who have made great achievements.
Because such problems are the core of Chinese culture, or Confucian culture.
So any question about this will make the Chinese feel unusually humiliated and regard it as a very serious discrimination. It's not just about race, it's about discrimination against the whole Chinese civilization. It includes history, religion, philosophy and social morality.
AND I just found out https://www.rankedftw.com/，change the Flag and Name of The People's Republic of China.At present, some players'forums in China have regarded it as naked and serious discrimination.
But it's not that serious yet, but this kind of behavior will gradually destroy China's StarCraft, and other Blizzard games in China.
And anyone from mainland China or Hong Kong(who had lived in colonial times) or Macau（All）would regard such a thing as an insult, like calling a black nigger.
I am very disappointed with what has happened internationally recently. We understand the international situation and the confrontation between different ideologies, cultures, political and economic interests.
But we also hope that sports itself, or the spirit of sports, can respect each other, region, race, culture.
Some people know Chinese culture and history very well, but still choose such a way of disrespecting China. It's very disappointing. Is it true that in other parts of the world, people live only to oppose China?
The People’s Propaganda Machine found this thread, I see.
And I only see a lot of agents from CIA and corrupted Washington.
I think this is really just what they will get as propaganda. Right now NBA's Alex Silver, who is yet to decide if the "woke" organization stands with free speech or chinese money, is called everything from a 9/11 collaborator to a nazi in chinese web forums.
On October 10 2019 01:04 Spirit_HUN wrote: When this player signed up for that tournament, he accepted the rules. He simply broke the rules, ended up banning himself.
Blizzard did the right thing. This is a video game company, not a political platform. If you are concerned about human rights in Hong Kong the are other ways, platforms to do that.
You should not force a video game company to be political. There are no political comments in the Olympics, Football, Formula1 etc. as well.
I dont want video games, sports events to be filled with politics. Viewers are there to be entertained, competitors are there to compete, and not to be forced to eat political bs 0-24.
They’re not a political platform, but they do have a clear political position here which is tow whatever line the Chinese authorities want them to tow.
Seems to me it was a pretty good platform for the guy to use really, although the attention it gained was more from Blizzard’s reaction than his actions specifically. Gained a fuckload of traction even US Senators are wading in, doubt he’d have been able to elicit such a response with a tweet.
China and especially the Gulf States use sport as an extension of their soft power, they’ve made it political already, likewise the Cold War saw sporting events like the Olympics as an ideological battleground.
if it is not an political extension of soft power,why some officials of the organization are talking about politics？if not,STOP talking.As an official, you can't blatantly confront the Chinese public opinion while thinking that discrimination against Chinese people, Chinese culture and support separatism and violence.
Why not?
National self-determination is a key principle of geopolitics in the modern era.
Considering a bomb blew in the windows of my house when I was but a babe, I’m quite happy that the United States interceded and helped facilitate a peace here that respected both of the national identities in our wee country.
I would personally like to see more of China and its culture emerge onto the world stage, an old and venerable culture indeed, whose people have accomplished remarkable things in the last few decades especially.
If it’s by trampling on everyone and expecting Westerners to bend to their whims and where criticism is construed as a grievous insult then, no thanks.
When you think so, have you ever asked about the thoughts of ordinary Chinese? It's like I'm here to express the thoughts of an ordinary Chinese. Indeed, I feel sad that I didn't learn English well, because what I lost is not a good paper, but an opportunity to communicate with others.
Not only Americans can define the world. The pioneers of socialism and communism are Germans and French. Formerly President Roosevelt of the United States was also criticized for socialism or communism. But think about Chinese history, the current development of China, and the past workers of Britain.
Some ideological conflicts are unavoidable, especially under the propaganda of some western media, they usually distort the report in order to satisfy their own interests.
China does not do very well in many places, but it does not want to do so. No Chinese wants his country to be like India with the same population. (I do not mean to discriminate. Most Chinese want to live a good life first and guarantee everyone the same rights, wealth, rights and status.)
In China, it is still possible to elect people who have been upgraded from the grassroots level through examinations and votes, while officials at the grassroots level are also elected.
In China, former leaders were even born to poor peasants rather than a billion-dollar owner or equally wealthy political family. Both father and son are presidents.
Western media believe that China is undemocratic and not free, and the Chinese believe that they are free and democratic. This seems to be a disgusting tactic.
I was disappointed with many of the statements, especially those of the distorted Sixth Fourth Movement (my father was one of the participants, but later they built China into the second largest country in the world), and those who believed that the Hong Kong police should not react to any of the protestors'actions.
When commenting, consider that China has 1.4 billion people. This country can not change because of the ideas of more than a dozen people, thousands of people and tens of thousands of people.
The most important thing is to ensure that more than a billion people, like other Westerners, can live with wealth and dignity on this planet.
On October 10 2019 01:04 Spirit_HUN wrote: When this player signed up for that tournament, he accepted the rules. He simply broke the rules, ended up banning himself.
Blizzard did the right thing. This is a video game company, not a political platform. If you are concerned about human rights in Hong Kong the are other ways, platforms to do that.
You should not force a video game company to be political. There are no political comments in the Olympics, Football, Formula1 etc. as well.
I dont want video games, sports events to be filled with politics. Viewers are there to be entertained, competitors are there to compete, and not to be forced to eat political bs 0-24.
They’re not a political platform, but they do have a clear political position here which is tow whatever line the Chinese authorities want them to tow.
Seems to me it was a pretty good platform for the guy to use really, although the attention it gained was more from Blizzard’s reaction than his actions specifically. Gained a fuckload of traction even US Senators are wading in, doubt he’d have been able to elicit such a response with a tweet.
China and especially the Gulf States use sport as an extension of their soft power, they’ve made it political already, likewise the Cold War saw sporting events like the Olympics as an ideological battleground.
if it is not an political extension of soft power,why some officials of the organization are talking about politics？if not,STOP talking.As an official, you can't blatantly confront the Chinese public opinion while thinking that discrimination against Chinese people, Chinese culture and support separatism and violence.
Why not?
National self-determination is a key principle of geopolitics in the modern era.
Considering a bomb blew in the windows of my house when I was but a babe, I’m quite happy that the United States interceded and helped facilitate a peace here that respected both of the national identities in our wee country.
I would personally like to see more of China and its culture emerge onto the world stage, an old and venerable culture indeed, whose people have accomplished remarkable things in the last few decades especially.
If it’s by trampling on everyone and expecting Westerners to bend to their whims and where criticism is construed as a grievous insult then, no thanks.
When you think so, have you ever asked about the thoughts of ordinary Chinese? It's like I'm here to express the thoughts of an ordinary Chinese. Indeed, I feel sad that I didn't learn English well, because what I lost is not a good paper, but an opportunity to communicate with others.
Not only Americans can define the world. The pioneers of socialism and communism are Germans and French. Formerly President Roosevelt of the United States was also criticized for socialism or communism. But think about Chinese history, the current development of China, and the past workers of Britain.
Some ideological conflicts are unavoidable, especially under the propaganda of some western media, they usually distort the report in order to satisfy their own interests.
China does not do very well in many places, but it does not want to do so. No Chinese wants his country to be like India with the same population. (I do not mean to discriminate. Most Chinese want to live a good life first and guarantee everyone the same rights, wealth, rights and status.)
In China, it is still possible to elect people who have been upgraded from the grassroots level through examinations and votes, while officials at the grassroots level are also elected.
In China, former leaders were even born to poor peasants rather than a billion-dollar owner or equally wealthy political family. Both father and son are presidents.
Western media believe that China is undemocratic and not free, and the Chinese believe that they are free and democratic. This seems to be a disgusting tactic.
I was disappointed with many of the statements, especially those of the distorted Sixth Fourth Movement (my father was one of the participants, but later they built China into the second largest country in the world), and those who believed that the Hong Kong police should not react to any of the protestors'actions.
When commenting, consider that China has 1.4 billion people. This country can not change because of the ideas of more than a dozen people, thousands of people and tens of thousands of people.
The most important thing is to ensure that more than a billion people, like other Westerners, can live with wealth and dignity on this planet.
The people of China are great. Unfortunately, you have filters that don’t allow true free discourse between normal Chinese folk and “western” folk.
Here’s a pro tip for you. If your government doesn’t allow the press or people in general to criticize it, you’re not part of a good system.
American media is at a low point right now, but at least they can criticize the current administration if they feel a policy is wrong. Cheers and continue to reach out to as many different opinions and views as you can.
On October 10 2019 01:04 Spirit_HUN wrote: When this player signed up for that tournament, he accepted the rules. He simply broke the rules, ended up banning himself.
Blizzard did the right thing. This is a video game company, not a political platform. If you are concerned about human rights in Hong Kong the are other ways, platforms to do that.
You should not force a video game company to be political. There are no political comments in the Olympics, Football, Formula1 etc. as well.
I dont want video games, sports events to be filled with politics. Viewers are there to be entertained, competitors are there to compete, and not to be forced to eat political bs 0-24.
They’re not a political platform, but they do have a clear political position here which is tow whatever line the Chinese authorities want them to tow.
Seems to me it was a pretty good platform for the guy to use really, although the attention it gained was more from Blizzard’s reaction than his actions specifically. Gained a fuckload of traction even US Senators are wading in, doubt he’d have been able to elicit such a response with a tweet.
China and especially the Gulf States use sport as an extension of their soft power, they’ve made it political already, likewise the Cold War saw sporting events like the Olympics as an ideological battleground.
if it is not an political extension of soft power,why some officials of the organization are talking about politics？if not,STOP talking.As an official, you can't blatantly confront the Chinese public opinion while thinking that discrimination against Chinese people, Chinese culture and support separatism and violence.
Why not?
National self-determination is a key principle of geopolitics in the modern era.
Considering a bomb blew in the windows of my house when I was but a babe, I’m quite happy that the United States interceded and helped facilitate a peace here that respected both of the national identities in our wee country.
I would personally like to see more of China and its culture emerge onto the world stage, an old and venerable culture indeed, whose people have accomplished remarkable things in the last few decades especially.
If it’s by trampling on everyone and expecting Westerners to bend to their whims and where criticism is construed as a grievous insult then, no thanks.
When you think so, have you ever asked about the thoughts of ordinary Chinese?.
I hope you understand that while this is an interesting conversation, your views are inherently skewed by the propaganda you've been fed every day. We know how the Chinese media works (and it's not just China btw. America has much of the same problems, and most of us here do recognise it as such). You have already made made several false statements and made comparisons that does not make sense (Comparing China to England because England has a mock Queen for instance). As such everything you say will be taken with the biggest grain of salt imaginable
I do think it's interesting what the ordinary Chinese thinks, but it truthfully doesn't matter. You don't get to commit human rights violations and consider it ok because "The ordinary Chinese thinks so". Guess who doesn't think it's ok? Hong Kong and its citizens.
On October 10 2019 01:12 chuchuchu wrote: All people are support freedom of speech and democracy,but Japan has a Emperor，England has a Queen，US and France dont have .The same thing looks different.
I can not for the life of me guess whether this is a troll, of if he's actually brainwashed enough to think that a totalitarian regime is the same as Japan and England because they have a hyped up Emperor/Queen who are as such in name only, and doesn't actually have any real power.
On October 10 2019 01:31 jy_9876543210 wrote: Well... he's just posting whatever he had learned. The big machine doesn't care about TL forum, it's too small. He just feels that he needs to do something to help no matter how little, although the entire post sounds worse than a high school essay...
You severely underestimate the Chinese troll farm. They care about your mom's Facebook posts.
Similarly, the Chinese also think that you have been brainwashed by the West. You often talk about freedom of speech and democracy. But when the Chinese spoke themselves, you said that the Chinese were wrong and the Chinese shut up. You always talk about your own thoughts and negate other thoughts. The Chinese never say to the TV that the American values are wrong and the Western social thoughts are wrong. American things, Americans are the masters. I want to ask, can Europeans make their own decisions? Can the British be the masters themselves?
I talk about Japan and the United Kingdom. If you think that countries like Japan and the United States are the same, I hope that you can learn more about Japanese society. For example, people who committed suicide because of the emperor's abdication.
I talked about Japan and the United Kingdom because, like other countries, they are democratic and free, even with emperors and queens. Similarly, the Chinese believe that they are also democratic and free, even if it does not seem to be at all.
But the truth is this. The British can't vote for the Queen. The Japanese can't decide the Emperor. On the contrary, the Japanese Emperor has great influence. Although the Japanese often deny this political issue, Japan's political arena is still a political continuation from the Meiji Restoration before World War II. Think about the Shinzo Abe family.
Instead of ridiculing China’s autocracy, is it also ridiculing Japan’s autocracy. I don't think anyone has ridiculed President Bush. I mean two President Bush.
I want to give an example. I don't know if you can understand. In the last US election, although more than half of the people supported Hillary, Trump was still elected to the US president because the state voted more.
One person, becoming the president of a country, even if he is only supported by half of the people. Is this democracy? Is this half the tyranny of the other half? Should the United States be divided into two countries, is Hillary and Trump half?
In addition, I really like Trump's make America great gain, but I remember that if there were any mistakes, there were many parades in the United States, and irony, against Teplang's words. Is this the embodiment of democracy and freedom of speech?
On October 10 2019 01:04 Spirit_HUN wrote: When this player signed up for that tournament, he accepted the rules. He simply broke the rules, ended up banning himself.
Blizzard did the right thing. This is a video game company, not a political platform. If you are concerned about human rights in Hong Kong the are other ways, platforms to do that.
You should not force a video game company to be political. There are no political comments in the Olympics, Football, Formula1 etc. as well.
I dont want video games, sports events to be filled with politics. Viewers are there to be entertained, competitors are there to compete, and not to be forced to eat political bs 0-24.
They’re not a political platform, but they do have a clear political position here which is tow whatever line the Chinese authorities want them to tow.
Seems to me it was a pretty good platform for the guy to use really, although the attention it gained was more from Blizzard’s reaction than his actions specifically. Gained a fuckload of traction even US Senators are wading in, doubt he’d have been able to elicit such a response with a tweet.
China and especially the Gulf States use sport as an extension of their soft power, they’ve made it political already, likewise the Cold War saw sporting events like the Olympics as an ideological battleground.
if it is not an political extension of soft power,why some officials of the organization are talking about politics？if not,STOP talking.As an official, you can't blatantly confront the Chinese public opinion while thinking that discrimination against Chinese people, Chinese culture and support separatism and violence.
Why not?
National self-determination is a key principle of geopolitics in the modern era.
Considering a bomb blew in the windows of my house when I was but a babe, I’m quite happy that the United States interceded and helped facilitate a peace here that respected both of the national identities in our wee country.
I would personally like to see more of China and its culture emerge onto the world stage, an old and venerable culture indeed, whose people have accomplished remarkable things in the last few decades especially.
If it’s by trampling on everyone and expecting Westerners to bend to their whims and where criticism is construed as a grievous insult then, no thanks.
When you think so, have you ever asked about the thoughts of ordinary Chinese? It's like I'm here to express the thoughts of an ordinary Chinese. Indeed, I feel sad that I didn't learn English well, because what I lost is not a good paper, but an opportunity to communicate with others.
Not only Americans can define the world. The pioneers of socialism and communism are Germans and French. Formerly President Roosevelt of the United States was also criticized for socialism or communism. But think about Chinese history, the current development of China, and the past workers of Britain.
Some ideological conflicts are unavoidable, especially under the propaganda of some western media, they usually distort the report in order to satisfy their own interests.
China does not do very well in many places, but it does not want to do so. No Chinese wants his country to be like India with the same population. (I do not mean to discriminate. Most Chinese want to live a good life first and guarantee everyone the same rights, wealth, rights and status.)
In China, it is still possible to elect people who have been upgraded from the grassroots level through examinations and votes, while officials at the grassroots level are also elected.
In China, former leaders were even born to poor peasants rather than a billion-dollar owner or equally wealthy political family. Both father and son are presidents.
Western media believe that China is undemocratic and not free, and the Chinese believe that they are free and democratic. This seems to be a disgusting tactic.
I was disappointed with many of the statements, especially those of the distorted Sixth Fourth Movement (my father was one of the participants, but later they built China into the second largest country in the world), and those who believed that the Hong Kong police should not react to any of the protestors'actions.
When commenting, consider that China has 1.4 billion people. This country can not change because of the ideas of more than a dozen people, thousands of people and tens of thousands of people.
The most important thing is to ensure that more than a billion people, like other Westerners, can live with wealth and dignity on this planet.
It is honestly quite difficult to get them, we live in separate cultural ecosystems and the language barrier is rather tough, for the record your English is rather excellent.
Notwithstanding China being less open, but even Japan or, in my case specifically Korea which I’d like to know more about having got some exposure via the glorious game of Starcraft for which we all share a passion here.
Westerners know very little of China and India by and large and I would count myself in that camp, and that’s a third of the humans living on the planet.
It is difficult to separate a desire to be respectful of cultural differences from government policy and actions, the latter being really all we hear about in the West. It is complicated yet further by how information is suppressed and controlled in China.
I don’t believe for a second that every Chinese person holds the same position, that would be ridiculous. Neither would I believe that everyday Chinese people would necessarily hold the positions and stances they currently do if they had access to some of the information (easily anyway), that we do in the West.
This is the crux of my issue really. By not challenging that specific aspect in any meaningful way, I feel we are just contributing to constricting the Chinese people from realising their full potential.
China has an awful record on human rights - fact. Their appalling treatment of Tibet and Uyghur muslims is well documented. And this is what I know about, someone who is not necessarily an expert on the subject. Turning this into a "West vs. China" reeks of whataboutism and does not add anything meaningful to the conversation. Blizzard bowing down to the wishes of the Chinese GOVERNMENT (for everyone saying "it's a game company, hurr durr, don't wanna hear about politics") makes it very evident they are following the money, and are terrified of losing out on the Chinese market. This alone proves a point- if a government is so repressive and awful that they would potentially ban an entire game and/or game company from their over 1 billion citizens over an issue of free speech, what does this tell you about that government? This could have been an opportunity to stand with people who are fighting for a semblance of democracy and fair rule (a law which would allow extradition to mainland China is a massive slap in the face after China promised a "high degree of autonomy" to Hong Kong after the British lease expired). Very disappointed in Blizzard and their complete spinelessness in the face of censorship, repression and "big brother" type control over what has become an international embarrassment for the Chinese Communist Party.
On October 10 2019 01:04 Spirit_HUN wrote: When this player signed up for that tournament, he accepted the rules. He simply broke the rules, ended up banning himself.
Blizzard did the right thing. This is a video game company, not a political platform. If you are concerned about human rights in Hong Kong the are other ways, platforms to do that.
You should not force a video game company to be political. There are no political comments in the Olympics, Football, Formula1 etc. as well.
I dont want video games, sports events to be filled with politics. Viewers are there to be entertained, competitors are there to compete, and not to be forced to eat political bs 0-24.
They’re not a political platform, but they do have a clear political position here which is tow whatever line the Chinese authorities want them to tow.
Seems to me it was a pretty good platform for the guy to use really, although the attention it gained was more from Blizzard’s reaction than his actions specifically. Gained a fuckload of traction even US Senators are wading in, doubt he’d have been able to elicit such a response with a tweet.
China and especially the Gulf States use sport as an extension of their soft power, they’ve made it political already, likewise the Cold War saw sporting events like the Olympics as an ideological battleground.
if it is not an political extension of soft power,why some officials of the organization are talking about politics？if not,STOP talking.As an official, you can't blatantly confront the Chinese public opinion while thinking that discrimination against Chinese people, Chinese culture and support separatism and violence.
Why not?
National self-determination is a key principle of geopolitics in the modern era.
Considering a bomb blew in the windows of my house when I was but a babe, I’m quite happy that the United States interceded and helped facilitate a peace here that respected both of the national identities in our wee country.
I would personally like to see more of China and its culture emerge onto the world stage, an old and venerable culture indeed, whose people have accomplished remarkable things in the last few decades especially.
If it’s by trampling on everyone and expecting Westerners to bend to their whims and where criticism is construed as a grievous insult then, no thanks.
When you think so, have you ever asked about the thoughts of ordinary Chinese? It's like I'm here to express the thoughts of an ordinary Chinese. Indeed, I feel sad that I didn't learn English well, because what I lost is not a good paper, but an opportunity to communicate with others.
Not only Americans can define the world. The pioneers of socialism and communism are Germans and French. Formerly President Roosevelt of the United States was also criticized for socialism or communism. But think about Chinese history, the current development of China, and the past workers of Britain.
Some ideological conflicts are unavoidable, especially under the propaganda of some western media, they usually distort the report in order to satisfy their own interests.
China does not do very well in many places, but it does not want to do so. No Chinese wants his country to be like India with the same population. (I do not mean to discriminate. Most Chinese want to live a good life first and guarantee everyone the same rights, wealth, rights and status.)
In China, it is still possible to elect people who have been upgraded from the grassroots level through examinations and votes, while officials at the grassroots level are also elected.
In China, former leaders were even born to poor peasants rather than a billion-dollar owner or equally wealthy political family. Both father and son are presidents.
Western media believe that China is undemocratic and not free, and the Chinese believe that they are free and democratic. This seems to be a disgusting tactic.
I was disappointed with many of the statements, especially those of the distorted Sixth Fourth Movement (my father was one of the participants, but later they built China into the second largest country in the world), and those who believed that the Hong Kong police should not react to any of the protestors'actions.
When commenting, consider that China has 1.4 billion people. This country can not change because of the ideas of more than a dozen people, thousands of people and tens of thousands of people.
The most important thing is to ensure that more than a billion people, like other Westerners, can live with wealth and dignity on this planet.
OMG we got a try-hard Xinhua News Agency spokesman.
"In China, it is still possible to elect people who have been upgraded from the grassroots level through examinations and votes, while officials at the grassroots level are also elected."
You mean an independent candidate? Who? Name one? I don't hear any good endings for them.
“In China, former leaders were even born to poor peasants rather than a billion-dollar owner or equally wealthy political family. Both father and son are presidents.”
Oh, so do you know how much money they or their family possess now? Public records of property? Any one of them?
On October 10 2019 01:12 chuchuchu wrote: All people are support freedom of speech and democracy,but Japan has a Emperor，England has a Queen，US and France dont have .The same thing looks different.
I can not for the life of me guess whether this is a troll, of if he's actually brainwashed enough to think that a totalitarian regime is the same as Japan and England because they have a hyped up Emperor/Queen who are as such in name only, and doesn't actually have any real power.
On October 10 2019 01:31 jy_9876543210 wrote: Well... he's just posting whatever he had learned. The big machine doesn't care about TL forum, it's too small. He just feels that he needs to do something to help no matter how little, although the entire post sounds worse than a high school essay...
You severely underestimate the Chinese troll farm. They care about your mom's Facebook posts.
Similarly, the Chinese also think that you have been brainwashed by the West. You often talk about freedom of speech and democracy. But when the Chinese spoke themselves, you said that the Chinese were wrong and the Chinese shut up. You always talk about your own thoughts and negate other thoughts. The Chinese never say to the TV that the American values are wrong and the Western social thoughts are wrong. American things, Americans are the masters. I want to ask, can Europeans make their own decisions? Can the British be the masters themselves?
I talk about Japan and the United Kingdom. If you think that countries like Japan and the United States are the same, I hope that you can learn more about Japanese society. For example, people who committed suicide because of the emperor's abdication.
I talked about Japan and the United Kingdom because, like other countries, they are democratic and free, even with emperors and queens. Similarly, the Chinese believe that they are also democratic and free, even if it does not seem to be at all.
But the truth is this. The British can't vote for the Queen. The Japanese can't decide the Emperor. On the contrary, the Japanese Emperor has great influence. Although the Japanese often deny this political issue, Japan's political arena is still a political continuation from the Meiji Restoration before World War II. Think about the Shinzo Abe family.
Instead of ridiculing China’s autocracy, is it also ridiculing Japan’s autocracy. I don't think anyone has ridiculed President Bush. I mean two President Bush.
I want to give an example. I don't know if you can understand. In the last US election, although more than half of the people supported Hillary, Trump was still elected to the US president because the state voted more.
One person, becoming the president of a country, even if he is only supported by half of the people. Is this democracy? Is this half the tyranny of the other half? Should the United States be divided into two countries, is Hillary and Trump half?
In addition, I really like Trump's make America great gain, but I remember that if there were any mistakes, there were many parades in the United States, and irony, against Teplang's words. Is this the embodiment of democracy and freedom of speech?
It doesn't matter if brainwashed people believe they are not brainwashed. If Chinese people believe they are not being manipulated they are simply manipulated into believing the are not manipulated. Ironic isn't it.
It is simple the people/organizations that try to limit knowledge and freedom of speech always do that because they have an agenda. Having an agenda means they want to control what you know because if they succeed in controlling what you know then they also by extension control what you believe.
China claiming that foreign news outlets are lying are simply another step in controling what the chinese people believe, because if only chinese news are regarded as trustworthy they control what you believe which means they control you.
All governments wants to do this to everyone, manipulation is simply what everyone does. However if you censor the internet and censor news and information you don't like then we live in a totalitarian state, like China.
From wiki: "Mainland Chinese Internet censorship programs have censored Web sites that include (among other things):[citation needed]
Web sites belonging to "outlawed" or suppressed groups, such as pro-democracy activists and Falun Gong. News sources that often cover topics that are considered defamatory against China, such as police brutality, the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests, freedom of speech, and democracy.[64] These sites include Voice of America and the Chinese edition of BBC News. Sites related to the Taiwanese government, media, or other organizations, including sites dedicated to religious content, and most large Taiwanese community websites or blogs. Web sites that contain anything the Chinese authorities regard as obscenity or pornography. Web sites relating to criminal activity. Sites linked with the Dalai Lama, his teachings or the International Tibet Independence Movement. Most blogging sites experience frequent or permanent outages. Web sites deemed as subversive. Other topics censored include: 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests, Xinjiang re-education camps, Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China, and more."
On October 10 2019 01:12 chuchuchu wrote: All people are support freedom of speech and democracy,but Japan has a Emperor，England has a Queen，US and France dont have .The same thing looks different.
I can not for the life of me guess whether this is a troll, of if he's actually brainwashed enough to think that a totalitarian regime is the same as Japan and England because they have a hyped up Emperor/Queen who are as such in name only, and doesn't actually have any real power.
On October 10 2019 01:31 jy_9876543210 wrote: Well... he's just posting whatever he had learned. The big machine doesn't care about TL forum, it's too small. He just feels that he needs to do something to help no matter how little, although the entire post sounds worse than a high school essay...
You severely underestimate the Chinese troll farm. They care about your mom's Facebook posts.
You often talk about freedom of speech and democracy. But when the Chinese spoke themselves, you said that the Chinese were wrong and the Chinese shut up.
I haven't..literally no one have. However action speak louder than words. What you say doesn't matter compared to what you do (as a country, not you personally).
China and the Chinese people can say whatever the fuck they want, the truth is that they are committing human rights violations. And no words can make up for that.
On October 10 2019 02:23 chuchuchu wrote: Similarly, the Chinese also think that you have been brainwashed by the West.
Yes, I am aware. But again, I have actions on my side. My government doesn't control our media, doesn't censor, doesn't indict people for speaking up against them, and cause human rights violations. Yours do. Therefore, I can rest assured that the side who is really being brainwashed isn't mine.
On October 10 2019 01:04 Spirit_HUN wrote: When this player signed up for that tournament, he accepted the rules. He simply broke the rules, ended up banning himself.
Blizzard did the right thing. This is a video game company, not a political platform. If you are concerned about human rights in Hong Kong the are other ways, platforms to do that.
You should not force a video game company to be political. There are no political comments in the Olympics, Football, Formula1 etc. as well.
I dont want video games, sports events to be filled with politics. Viewers are there to be entertained, competitors are there to compete, and not to be forced to eat political bs 0-24.
They’re not a political platform, but they do have a clear political position here which is tow whatever line the Chinese authorities want them to tow.
Seems to me it was a pretty good platform for the guy to use really, although the attention it gained was more from Blizzard’s reaction than his actions specifically. Gained a fuckload of traction even US Senators are wading in, doubt he’d have been able to elicit such a response with a tweet.
China and especially the Gulf States use sport as an extension of their soft power, they’ve made it political already, likewise the Cold War saw sporting events like the Olympics as an ideological battleground.
if it is not an political extension of soft power,why some officials of the organization are talking about politics？if not,STOP talking.As an official, you can't blatantly confront the Chinese public opinion while thinking that discrimination against Chinese people, Chinese culture and support separatism and violence.
Why not?
National self-determination is a key principle of geopolitics in the modern era.
Considering a bomb blew in the windows of my house when I was but a babe, I’m quite happy that the United States interceded and helped facilitate a peace here that respected both of the national identities in our wee country.
I would personally like to see more of China and its culture emerge onto the world stage, an old and venerable culture indeed, whose people have accomplished remarkable things in the last few decades especially.
If it’s by trampling on everyone and expecting Westerners to bend to their whims and where criticism is construed as a grievous insult then, no thanks.
When you think so, have you ever asked about the thoughts of ordinary Chinese?.
I hope you understand that while this is an interesting conversation, your views are inherently skewed by the propaganda you've been fed every day. We know how the Chinese media works (and it's not just China btw. America has much of the same problems, and most of us here do recognise it as such). You have already made made several false statements and made comparisons that does not make sense (Comparing China to England because England has a mock Queen for instance). As such everything you say will be taken with the biggest grain of salt imaginable
I do think it's interesting what the ordinary Chinese thinks, but it truthfully doesn't matter. You don't get to commit human rights violations and consider it ok because "The ordinary Chinese thinks so". Guess who doesn't think it's ok? Hong Kong and its citizens.
Very interesting, wrong comparison I just want to show that some forms of democracy and freedom will change, just as discrimination against blacks is definitely not one of freedom of speech in the United States. Although Martin Luther King was killed. Similarly, China's democracy and freedom are not so much the same as the United States, because the so-called autocracy and dictator seem to be like the Queen of England and the Emperor of Japan.
And when you talk about it, we should think about Hong Kong and its citizens. I am very eager to ask, do you know how many Hong Kong people participated in this Chinese National Day celebration? Including young people, college students, government officials, police, famous stars, and ordinary people. Do you think we should think about Hong Kong people, then do you know how many people in Hong Kong support the police parade? The police in Hong Kong, the government in Hong Kong, Hong Kong, so many condemns the violent protesters, and the ordinary people, shouting at the bbc reporters, this is Hong Kong, China, the taxi driver who supports the law revision, isn't it Hong Kong?
What you see seems to be the collective public opinion of Hong Kong, actually because those people have amplified this reaction through radical methods.
Think about it, if it is really a problem of the society and the Chinese government, the Hong Kong government, the ordinary people of Hong Kong (Is it not ordinary people and the grassroots officials?) Are these attitudes still not showing anything? Think about how good the credibility of the Hong Kong government is, and the same group of people are not trusted now.
The vast majority of protesters on the streets of Hong Kong are college students, young people, and young unemployed people. Is this a normal antibody or a collective carnival of young people, like an American youth who likes to take drugs?
China has experienced two very painful students, and the young people have dominated the political violent protests, almost smashing the entire country. However, these protests did not make more than a billion people ignorant, and the ordinary Chinese who were at a loss knew how to live well.
The Chinese have supported all the legal acts of Hong Kong and have wanted to split China and Hong Kong for many years. There is nothing too fierce.
We support Hong Kong, support democracy, support freedom, and even to some extent, support universal suffrage in Hong Kong.
However, what you have to understand is what is the slogan of Hong Kong's independence and violence? This is what the Hong Kong player and the NBA rocket manager said.
This is also why the Chinese currently call it a terrorist, because terrorists in the Middle East often call themselves freedom fighters.
If Hong Kong, China, is not dominated by the majority of Chinese people and by the majority of Hong Kong people, then who will decide?
Can Texas and California declare independence today and expel all blacks and people from other states？
So，why China give up HK？and Violent protestors demanding the expulsion of mainlanders？
In mainland China, Hong Kong people's bad reputation, sense of geographical superiority and discrimination against mainlanders are the main reasons。
(you can find it in many Hong Kong movies，In mainland China, Hong Kong people's bad reputation, sense of geographical superiority and discrimination against mainlanders are the main reasons (you can find out from many Hong Kong movies, including asking mainlanders if they have seen Apple phones made in China, and mocking the mainland for lack of high-rise power and modern technology, the same thing is still happening to Chinese people in Europe, the United States, etc.)It used to be Korea and Japan.).
I wonder if more big community figures will speak up and stand their ground. I can totally understand that many can not afford to do that though.
Edit: I think Brian Kiblers statement should be in the OP, it's like Artosis or Tasteless deciding to cut ties with Blizz if this happened in sc2. Huge deal imo. BlizzCon will be interesting...
On October 10 2019 00:32 Meta wrote: Blizzard is dead to me, and for that, I despair.
Eh, the company is a shell of what it once was, but it's not like the original game developers rolled over and died. The diablo guys left and made Torchlight which is great, same with the rest, they're making other good stuff. You don't have to buy Blizzard games just because you liked one of their games back in 98.
Reminds me of The Simpsons in which all the good writers left a good dozen years ago and now it's crap, but they made other great stuff.
I will stop supporting Hearthstone or watching any Hearthstone content, I barely play starcraft but I do watch all the tournaments and will continue to do so for now but I will see if Blizzard has any change in policy.
I think a lot of the Chinese media/government have obviously tried to paint the protesters as terrorists and criminals but they have also tried to make it as if Hong Kong wants to be an independent country (which some do want but that is a minority) rather than having the freedoms they were guaranteed while being a part of China.
China signed an international treaty with the UK that guaranteed the rights of Hong Kong'ers for 50 years, it is blatantly breaking that treaty, there should be a bigger UK and international response.
On October 10 2019 00:32 Meta wrote: Blizzard is dead to me, and for that, I despair.
Eh, the company is a shell of what it once was, but it's not like the original game developers rolled over and died. The diablo guys left and made Torchlight which is great, same with the rest, they're making other good stuff. You don't have to buy Blizzard games just because you liked one of their games back in 98.
Reminds me of The Simpsons in which all the good writers left a good dozen years ago and now it's crap, but they made other great stuff.
Follow the makers, not the companies.
True, but it doesn’t have to follow that the ethos and culture of the company live and die with the personnel who made it what it is.
Nintendo while I don’t slavishly fanboy over them either are still recognisably Nintendo over a period of decades.
To me the chief appeal of Blizzard was being a ‘AAA’ studio who polished the hell out of their games and supported them well, especially given the paucity of RTS games on the market, which is by an order of magnitude my favourite genre.
Smaller indie studios do great work, sometimes you need one of the big boys to really deliver and shift wider market trends and Blizzard was more than big enough to do so.
On October 10 2019 01:12 chuchuchu wrote: All people are support freedom of speech and democracy,but Japan has a Emperor，England has a Queen，US and France dont have .The same thing looks different.
I can not for the life of me guess whether this is a troll, of if he's actually brainwashed enough to think that a totalitarian regime is the same as Japan and England because they have a hyped up Emperor/Queen who are as such in name only, and doesn't actually have any real power.
On October 10 2019 01:31 jy_9876543210 wrote: Well... he's just posting whatever he had learned. The big machine doesn't care about TL forum, it's too small. He just feels that he needs to do something to help no matter how little, although the entire post sounds worse than a high school essay...
You severely underestimate the Chinese troll farm. They care about your mom's Facebook posts.
Similarly, the Chinese also think that you have been brainwashed by the West. You often talk about freedom of speech and democracy. But when the Chinese spoke themselves, you said that the Chinese were wrong and the Chinese shut up. You always talk about your own thoughts and negate other thoughts. The Chinese never say to the TV that the American values are wrong and the Western social thoughts are wrong. American things, Americans are the masters. I want to ask, can Europeans make their own decisions? Can the British be the masters themselves?
I talk about Japan and the United Kingdom. If you think that countries like Japan and the United States are the same, I hope that you can learn more about Japanese society. For example, people who committed suicide because of the emperor's abdication.
I talked about Japan and the United Kingdom because, like other countries, they are democratic and free, even with emperors and queens. Similarly, the Chinese believe that they are also democratic and free, even if it does not seem to be at all.
But the truth is this. The British can't vote for the Queen. The Japanese can't decide the Emperor. On the contrary, the Japanese Emperor has great influence. Although the Japanese often deny this political issue, Japan's political arena is still a political continuation from the Meiji Restoration before World War II. Think about the Shinzo Abe family.
Instead of ridiculing China’s autocracy, is it also ridiculing Japan’s autocracy. I don't think anyone has ridiculed President Bush. I mean two President Bush.
I want to give an example. I don't know if you can understand. In the last US election, although more than half of the people supported Hillary, Trump was still elected to the US president because the state voted more.
One person, becoming the president of a country, even if he is only supported by half of the people. Is this democracy? Is this half the tyranny of the other half? Should the United States be divided into two countries, is Hillary and Trump half?
In addition, I really like Trump's make America great gain, but I remember that if there were any mistakes, there were many parades in the United States, and irony, against Teplang's words. Is this the embodiment of democracy and freedom of speech?
It doesn't matter if brainwashed people believe they are not brainwashed. If Chinese people believe they are not being manipulated they are simply manipulated into believing the are not manipulated. Ironic isn't it.
It is simple the people/organizations that try to limit knowledge and freedom of speech always do that because they have an agenda. Having an agenda means they want to control what you know because if they succeed in controlling what you know then they also by extension control what you believe.
China claiming that foreign news outlets are lying are simply another step in controling what the chinese people believe, because if only chinese news are regarded as trustworthy they control what you believe which means they control you.
All governments wants to do this to everyone, manipulation is simply what everyone does. However if you censor the internet and censor news and information you don't like then we live in a totalitarian state, like China.
From wiki: "Mainland Chinese Internet censorship programs have censored Web sites that include (among other things):[citation needed]
Web sites belonging to "outlawed" or suppressed groups, such as pro-democracy activists and Falun Gong. News sources that often cover topics that are considered defamatory against China, such as police brutality, the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests, freedom of speech, and democracy.[64] These sites include Voice of America and the Chinese edition of BBC News. Sites related to the Taiwanese government, media, or other organizations, including sites dedicated to religious content, and most large Taiwanese community websites or blogs. Web sites that contain anything the Chinese authorities regard as obscenity or pornography. Web sites relating to criminal activity. Sites linked with the Dalai Lama, his teachings or the International Tibet Independence Movement. Most blogging sites experience frequent or permanent outages. Web sites deemed as subversive. Other topics censored include: 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests, Xinjiang re-education camps, Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China, and more."
Another Chinese are brainwashed and CCP is evil post, yet again.
So you boldly claim that Chinese are so brainwashed they don't even know they are brainwashed. How do you know you are in a safe place where all of your informations from western media (especially wiki, which most Chinese people won't read and edit) are all correct fact and neutral.
It is just hilarious to see the people live outside of China and never visited China consider themselves more knowlegable about China than people actually living there, by only watching a few video clip and reading some poorly-based reports.
On October 10 2019 01:12 chuchuchu wrote: All people are support freedom of speech and democracy,but Japan has a Emperor，England has a Queen，US and France dont have .The same thing looks different.
I can not for the life of me guess whether this is a troll, of if he's actually brainwashed enough to think that a totalitarian regime is the same as Japan and England because they have a hyped up Emperor/Queen who are as such in name only, and doesn't actually have any real power.
On October 10 2019 01:31 jy_9876543210 wrote: Well... he's just posting whatever he had learned. The big machine doesn't care about TL forum, it's too small. He just feels that he needs to do something to help no matter how little, although the entire post sounds worse than a high school essay...
You severely underestimate the Chinese troll farm. They care about your mom's Facebook posts.
Similarly, the Chinese also think that you have been brainwashed by the West. You often talk about freedom of speech and democracy. But when the Chinese spoke themselves, you said that the Chinese were wrong and the Chinese shut up. You always talk about your own thoughts and negate other thoughts. The Chinese never say to the TV that the American values are wrong and the Western social thoughts are wrong. American things, Americans are the masters. I want to ask, can Europeans make their own decisions? Can the British be the masters themselves?
I talk about Japan and the United Kingdom. If you think that countries like Japan and the United States are the same, I hope that you can learn more about Japanese society. For example, people who committed suicide because of the emperor's abdication.
I talked about Japan and the United Kingdom because, like other countries, they are democratic and free, even with emperors and queens. Similarly, the Chinese believe that they are also democratic and free, even if it does not seem to be at all.
But the truth is this. The British can't vote for the Queen. The Japanese can't decide the Emperor. On the contrary, the Japanese Emperor has great influence. Although the Japanese often deny this political issue, Japan's political arena is still a political continuation from the Meiji Restoration before World War II. Think about the Shinzo Abe family.
Instead of ridiculing China’s autocracy, is it also ridiculing Japan’s autocracy. I don't think anyone has ridiculed President Bush. I mean two President Bush.
I want to give an example. I don't know if you can understand. In the last US election, although more than half of the people supported Hillary, Trump was still elected to the US president because the state voted more.
One person, becoming the president of a country, even if he is only supported by half of the people. Is this democracy? Is this half the tyranny of the other half? Should the United States be divided into two countries, is Hillary and Trump half?
In addition, I really like Trump's make America great gain, but I remember that if there were any mistakes, there were many parades in the United States, and irony, against Teplang's words. Is this the embodiment of democracy and freedom of speech?
It doesn't matter if brainwashed people believe they are not brainwashed. If Chinese people believe they are not being manipulated they are simply manipulated into believing the are not manipulated. Ironic isn't it.
It is simple the people/organizations that try to limit knowledge and freedom of speech always do that because they have an agenda. Having an agenda means they want to control what you know because if they succeed in controlling what you know then they also by extension control what you believe.
China claiming that foreign news outlets are lying are simply another step in controling what the chinese people believe, because if only chinese news are regarded as trustworthy they control what you believe which means they control you.
All governments wants to do this to everyone, manipulation is simply what everyone does. However if you censor the internet and censor news and information you don't like then we live in a totalitarian state, like China.
From wiki: "Mainland Chinese Internet censorship programs have censored Web sites that include (among other things):[citation needed]
Web sites belonging to "outlawed" or suppressed groups, such as pro-democracy activists and Falun Gong. News sources that often cover topics that are considered defamatory against China, such as police brutality, the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests, freedom of speech, and democracy.[64] These sites include Voice of America and the Chinese edition of BBC News. Sites related to the Taiwanese government, media, or other organizations, including sites dedicated to religious content, and most large Taiwanese community websites or blogs. Web sites that contain anything the Chinese authorities regard as obscenity or pornography. Web sites relating to criminal activity. Sites linked with the Dalai Lama, his teachings or the International Tibet Independence Movement. Most blogging sites experience frequent or permanent outages. Web sites deemed as subversive. Other topics censored include: 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests, Xinjiang re-education camps, Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China, and more."
I don't want to talk about these issues, because your approach is not through personal experience, but the Western media. I can simply say a few things. You can go and find out, maybe there is a deeper feeling. 1. Falun Gong preaches that they can acquire the same abilities as Superman. They are basically seriously ill, and they don’t have to go to the hospital. They must respect the Lord as their father, obey all commands, and basically self-immolation. I have an uncle, because he have practiced Falun Gong and he was ridiculed by everyone around me. It is true that it is unbelievable that because of socialism, the Chinese are more convinced of science. 2. The problem of Tibet, the territorial issue need not be said more. The primitive religion of Tibet was ruled in Tibet. At that time, the Chinese Communist Party’s army hoped to peacefully reunite Tibet. However, they found that Tibetan religion actually practiced slavery. Tibet’s situation is like Leo. Pod II is like his Congolese Free State. Of course you see a kindly exile, telling you some mysterious oriental religious thoughts, but he never told you that he used to be a slave owner, using the religious utensils of the human skin, and the things like the sister drum. I hope that you will not be afraid at night. You can also check Mao Zedong's position in Tibet. You may not believe it. He is considered to be a generation of Tibetan religious leaders (there are paper documents, museums I see). 3. Organ problems. China is not a country that is always complete, or even a relatively complete law. We are working hard, but I think that China, which was chaotic years ago, is developing too fast, so we often say that we used In less than 30 years, it has gone through hundreds of years of Western history, and modern civilization and primitive agricultural civilization coexist. If you are curious, in the public network search, sell your kidneys to buy Apple mobile news, you may understand that organ problems are not government manipulation, but the product of low education, unsound laws, and chaotic times. It’s gone now, because everything has changed. The Chinese government does not need to buy and sell organs to make money. This is very naive. Do you think China is authoritarian? Only the government needs a word, where to buy and sell organs. 4, Beijing 1989, you can go to Wikipedia to see, because I also saw where, from a person who accepts Chinese culture, I will not believe that: I can not die, they can bleed, but I am going to the United States . There are also the same experiencers who said that the massacre did not exist. But does it exist? You can search for the complete video of the tank, which is the video of the person being taken away after the circumvention. You can also search for photos of some police and soldiers being burned on the flyover. It is true that they have treated people with restraint, but unfortunately people sometimes do not treat them with restraint, just like Hong Kong now.
On October 10 2019 02:58 Zaros wrote: I will stop supporting Hearthstone or watching any Hearthstone content, I barely play starcraft but I do watch all the tournaments and will continue to do so for now but I will see if Blizzard has any change in policy.
I think a lot of the Chinese media/government have obviously tried to paint the protesters as terrorists and criminals but they have also tried to make it as if Hong Kong wants to be an independent country (which some do want but that is a minority) rather than having the freedoms they were guaranteed while being a part of China.
China signed an international treaty with the UK that guaranteed the rights of Hong Kong'ers for 50 years, it is blatantly breaking that treaty, there should be a bigger UK and international response.
Do you support Northern Ireland independence, Scotland independence?
On October 10 2019 01:12 chuchuchu wrote: All people are support freedom of speech and democracy,but Japan has a Emperor，England has a Queen，US and France dont have .The same thing looks different.
I can not for the life of me guess whether this is a troll, of if he's actually brainwashed enough to think that a totalitarian regime is the same as Japan and England because they have a hyped up Emperor/Queen who are as such in name only, and doesn't actually have any real power.
On October 10 2019 01:31 jy_9876543210 wrote: Well... he's just posting whatever he had learned. The big machine doesn't care about TL forum, it's too small. He just feels that he needs to do something to help no matter how little, although the entire post sounds worse than a high school essay...
You severely underestimate the Chinese troll farm. They care about your mom's Facebook posts.
Similarly, the Chinese also think that you have been brainwashed by the West. You often talk about freedom of speech and democracy. But when the Chinese spoke themselves, you said that the Chinese were wrong and the Chinese shut up. You always talk about your own thoughts and negate other thoughts. The Chinese never say to the TV that the American values are wrong and the Western social thoughts are wrong. American things, Americans are the masters. I want to ask, can Europeans make their own decisions? Can the British be the masters themselves?
I talk about Japan and the United Kingdom. If you think that countries like Japan and the United States are the same, I hope that you can learn more about Japanese society. For example, people who committed suicide because of the emperor's abdication.
I talked about Japan and the United Kingdom because, like other countries, they are democratic and free, even with emperors and queens. Similarly, the Chinese believe that they are also democratic and free, even if it does not seem to be at all.
But the truth is this. The British can't vote for the Queen. The Japanese can't decide the Emperor. On the contrary, the Japanese Emperor has great influence. Although the Japanese often deny this political issue, Japan's political arena is still a political continuation from the Meiji Restoration before World War II. Think about the Shinzo Abe family.
Instead of ridiculing China’s autocracy, is it also ridiculing Japan’s autocracy. I don't think anyone has ridiculed President Bush. I mean two President Bush.
I want to give an example. I don't know if you can understand. In the last US election, although more than half of the people supported Hillary, Trump was still elected to the US president because the state voted more.
One person, becoming the president of a country, even if he is only supported by half of the people. Is this democracy? Is this half the tyranny of the other half? Should the United States be divided into two countries, is Hillary and Trump half?
In addition, I really like Trump's make America great gain, but I remember that if there were any mistakes, there were many parades in the United States, and irony, against Teplang's words. Is this the embodiment of democracy and freedom of speech?
It doesn't matter if brainwashed people believe they are not brainwashed. If Chinese people believe they are not being manipulated they are simply manipulated into believing the are not manipulated. Ironic isn't it.
It is simple the people/organizations that try to limit knowledge and freedom of speech always do that because they have an agenda. Having an agenda means they want to control what you know because if they succeed in controlling what you know then they also by extension control what you believe.
China claiming that foreign news outlets are lying are simply another step in controling what the chinese people believe, because if only chinese news are regarded as trustworthy they control what you believe which means they control you.
All governments wants to do this to everyone, manipulation is simply what everyone does. However if you censor the internet and censor news and information you don't like then we live in a totalitarian state, like China.
From wiki: "Mainland Chinese Internet censorship programs have censored Web sites that include (among other things):[citation needed]
Web sites belonging to "outlawed" or suppressed groups, such as pro-democracy activists and Falun Gong. News sources that often cover topics that are considered defamatory against China, such as police brutality, the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests, freedom of speech, and democracy.[64] These sites include Voice of America and the Chinese edition of BBC News. Sites related to the Taiwanese government, media, or other organizations, including sites dedicated to religious content, and most large Taiwanese community websites or blogs. Web sites that contain anything the Chinese authorities regard as obscenity or pornography. Web sites relating to criminal activity. Sites linked with the Dalai Lama, his teachings or the International Tibet Independence Movement. Most blogging sites experience frequent or permanent outages. Web sites deemed as subversive. Other topics censored include: 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests, Xinjiang re-education camps, Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China, and more."
Another Chinese are brainwashed and CCP is evil post, yet again.
So you boldly claim that Chinese are so brainwashed they don't even know they are brainwashed. How do you know you are in a safe place where all of your informations from western media (especially wiki, which most Chinese people won't read and edit) are all correct fact and neutral.
It is just hilarious to see the people live outside of China and never visited China consider themselves more knowlegable about China than people actually living there, by only watching a few video clip and reading some poorly-based reports.
For one, our media is allowed to criticise our own government, and does so repeatedly. That alone should be enough proof that they aren't controlled. Neither is anything censored anywhere (With the exception of things like child porn and threats of violence, thank god).
So you can't claim that we're being brainwashed when we have open channels to all forms of communications, something China isn't willing to do.
On October 10 2019 02:58 Zaros wrote: I will stop supporting Hearthstone or watching any Hearthstone content, I barely play starcraft but I do watch all the tournaments and will continue to do so for now but I will see if Blizzard has any change in policy.
I think a lot of the Chinese media/government have obviously tried to paint the protesters as terrorists and criminals but they have also tried to make it as if Hong Kong wants to be an independent country (which some do want but that is a minority) rather than having the freedoms they were guaranteed while being a part of China.
China signed an international treaty with the UK that guaranteed the rights of Hong Kong'ers for 50 years, it is blatantly breaking that treaty, there should be a bigger UK and international response.
Do you support Northern Ireland independence, Scotland independence?
I'm not the guy you asked, but let me answer anyways: Yes and Yes. In fact, it's very likely Scotland might go independent if England finalises their Brexit. At which point England or anyone else can't and shouldn't stop them from doing so.
On October 10 2019 01:12 chuchuchu wrote: All people are support freedom of speech and democracy,but Japan has a Emperor，England has a Queen，US and France dont have .The same thing looks different.
I can not for the life of me guess whether this is a troll, of if he's actually brainwashed enough to think that a totalitarian regime is the same as Japan and England because they have a hyped up Emperor/Queen who are as such in name only, and doesn't actually have any real power.
On October 10 2019 01:31 jy_9876543210 wrote: Well... he's just posting whatever he had learned. The big machine doesn't care about TL forum, it's too small. He just feels that he needs to do something to help no matter how little, although the entire post sounds worse than a high school essay...
You severely underestimate the Chinese troll farm. They care about your mom's Facebook posts.
Similarly, the Chinese also think that you have been brainwashed by the West. You often talk about freedom of speech and democracy. But when the Chinese spoke themselves, you said that the Chinese were wrong and the Chinese shut up. You always talk about your own thoughts and negate other thoughts. The Chinese never say to the TV that the American values are wrong and the Western social thoughts are wrong. American things, Americans are the masters. I want to ask, can Europeans make their own decisions? Can the British be the masters themselves?
I talk about Japan and the United Kingdom. If you think that countries like Japan and the United States are the same, I hope that you can learn more about Japanese society. For example, people who committed suicide because of the emperor's abdication.
I talked about Japan and the United Kingdom because, like other countries, they are democratic and free, even with emperors and queens. Similarly, the Chinese believe that they are also democratic and free, even if it does not seem to be at all.
But the truth is this. The British can't vote for the Queen. The Japanese can't decide the Emperor. On the contrary, the Japanese Emperor has great influence. Although the Japanese often deny this political issue, Japan's political arena is still a political continuation from the Meiji Restoration before World War II. Think about the Shinzo Abe family.
Instead of ridiculing China’s autocracy, is it also ridiculing Japan’s autocracy. I don't think anyone has ridiculed President Bush. I mean two President Bush.
I want to give an example. I don't know if you can understand. In the last US election, although more than half of the people supported Hillary, Trump was still elected to the US president because the state voted more.
One person, becoming the president of a country, even if he is only supported by half of the people. Is this democracy? Is this half the tyranny of the other half? Should the United States be divided into two countries, is Hillary and Trump half?
In addition, I really like Trump's make America great gain, but I remember that if there were any mistakes, there were many parades in the United States, and irony, against Teplang's words. Is this the embodiment of democracy and freedom of speech?
It doesn't matter if brainwashed people believe they are not brainwashed. If Chinese people believe they are not being manipulated they are simply manipulated into believing the are not manipulated. Ironic isn't it.
It is simple the people/organizations that try to limit knowledge and freedom of speech always do that because they have an agenda. Having an agenda means they want to control what you know because if they succeed in controlling what you know then they also by extension control what you believe.
China claiming that foreign news outlets are lying are simply another step in controling what the chinese people believe, because if only chinese news are regarded as trustworthy they control what you believe which means they control you.
All governments wants to do this to everyone, manipulation is simply what everyone does. However if you censor the internet and censor news and information you don't like then we live in a totalitarian state, like China.
From wiki: "Mainland Chinese Internet censorship programs have censored Web sites that include (among other things):[citation needed]
Web sites belonging to "outlawed" or suppressed groups, such as pro-democracy activists and Falun Gong. News sources that often cover topics that are considered defamatory against China, such as police brutality, the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests, freedom of speech, and democracy.[64] These sites include Voice of America and the Chinese edition of BBC News. Sites related to the Taiwanese government, media, or other organizations, including sites dedicated to religious content, and most large Taiwanese community websites or blogs. Web sites that contain anything the Chinese authorities regard as obscenity or pornography. Web sites relating to criminal activity. Sites linked with the Dalai Lama, his teachings or the International Tibet Independence Movement. Most blogging sites experience frequent or permanent outages. Web sites deemed as subversive. Other topics censored include: 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests, Xinjiang re-education camps, Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China, and more."
Another Chinese are brainwashed and CCP is evil post, yet again.
So you boldly claim that Chinese are so brainwashed they don't even know they are brainwashed. How do you know you are in a safe place where all of your informations from western media (especially wiki, which most Chinese people won't read and edit) are all correct fact and neutral.
It is just hilarious to see the people live outside of China and never visited China consider themselves more knowlegable about China than people actually living there, by only watching a few video clip and reading some poorly-based reports.
I don’t particularly like the word brainwashed, as it infers negative connotations to the recipient, be it a lack of critical faculties or whatever.
I really don’t think it’s arguable that Westerners have more open access to information than Chinese people. It’s not hearsay or some misconception it just absolutely the case.
The two media spheres are not at all equivalent. In the West there is a veritable fuckton of bullshit out there, and people trying to convince people to lean in a certain direction, absolutely. But these entities are all in competition for the hearts and minds of people in our area of the world, and a discerning person can sift through and make up their own minds.
In China, there is one real arbiter on information that has particular goals, and people do not have (easy) access to information outside of those parameters.
From what I have seen from talking with people from China, when I was in university, they never even heard of what happened in Tiananmen Square in 1989, and these people, being able to afford prestigious UK education would be considered amongst the richest and most educated people in China. That is the degree of control the Chinese government has over information in China. Have you heard of what happened in Tiananmen Square in 1989?
And yes, I have visited China before. And Hong Kong too. The people of Hong Kong initially celebrated being handed to China, but now they no longer view themselves as Chinese, that is how poorly the China the country has treated them.
On October 10 2019 02:58 Zaros wrote: I will stop supporting Hearthstone or watching any Hearthstone content, I barely play starcraft but I do watch all the tournaments and will continue to do so for now but I will see if Blizzard has any change in policy.
I think a lot of the Chinese media/government have obviously tried to paint the protesters as terrorists and criminals but they have also tried to make it as if Hong Kong wants to be an independent country (which some do want but that is a minority) rather than having the freedoms they were guaranteed while being a part of China.
China signed an international treaty with the UK that guaranteed the rights of Hong Kong'ers for 50 years, it is blatantly breaking that treaty, there should be a bigger UK and international response.
Do you support Northern Ireland independence, Scotland independence?
Yes and yes, if the majority people in said areas actually desire it.
As of yet, neither are the case. Although in Northern Ireland’s case it would be unifying with Ireland in some capacity that is generally proposed, not being independent as a separate nation.
As a British person by descent and culture I’d be fine with a united Irish state provided there were adequate safeguards in place regarding culture etc and dual citizenship options for Brits.
Even though there's no direct relation to Strarcraft, I would appreciate a featured news post about the issue (yeah, it doesn't really, matter given how much publicity the incident has already gathered). A city state of 7 million people fighting the seemingly inevitable assimilation into a country under the helm of a tyrannical regime, transcends considerations of profit and relations. And Blizzard should face all the scrutiny and opposition anyone can muster for indulging China's present government.
On October 10 2019 03:13 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Have you heard of what happened in Tiananmen Square in 1989?
This is all I really want to know from the pro-Chinese people in this thread. Do they know what happened in Tiananmen Square in 1989 and do they support what the Chinese government did? This would answer so much in this thread without having to address most of it. I'm sure we all know what the answers are though.
On October 10 2019 01:12 chuchuchu wrote: All people are support freedom of speech and democracy,but Japan has a Emperor，England has a Queen，US and France dont have .The same thing looks different.
I can not for the life of me guess whether this is a troll, of if he's actually brainwashed enough to think that a totalitarian regime is the same as Japan and England because they have a hyped up Emperor/Queen who are as such in name only, and doesn't actually have any real power.
On October 10 2019 01:31 jy_9876543210 wrote: Well... he's just posting whatever he had learned. The big machine doesn't care about TL forum, it's too small. He just feels that he needs to do something to help no matter how little, although the entire post sounds worse than a high school essay...
You severely underestimate the Chinese troll farm. They care about your mom's Facebook posts.
Similarly, the Chinese also think that you have been brainwashed by the West. You often talk about freedom of speech and democracy. But when the Chinese spoke themselves, you said that the Chinese were wrong and the Chinese shut up. You always talk about your own thoughts and negate other thoughts. The Chinese never say to the TV that the American values are wrong and the Western social thoughts are wrong. American things, Americans are the masters. I want to ask, can Europeans make their own decisions? Can the British be the masters themselves?
I talk about Japan and the United Kingdom. If you think that countries like Japan and the United States are the same, I hope that you can learn more about Japanese society. For example, people who committed suicide because of the emperor's abdication.
I talked about Japan and the United Kingdom because, like other countries, they are democratic and free, even with emperors and queens. Similarly, the Chinese believe that they are also democratic and free, even if it does not seem to be at all.
But the truth is this. The British can't vote for the Queen. The Japanese can't decide the Emperor. On the contrary, the Japanese Emperor has great influence. Although the Japanese often deny this political issue, Japan's political arena is still a political continuation from the Meiji Restoration before World War II. Think about the Shinzo Abe family.
Instead of ridiculing China’s autocracy, is it also ridiculing Japan’s autocracy. I don't think anyone has ridiculed President Bush. I mean two President Bush.
I want to give an example. I don't know if you can understand. In the last US election, although more than half of the people supported Hillary, Trump was still elected to the US president because the state voted more.
One person, becoming the president of a country, even if he is only supported by half of the people. Is this democracy? Is this half the tyranny of the other half? Should the United States be divided into two countries, is Hillary and Trump half?
In addition, I really like Trump's make America great gain, but I remember that if there were any mistakes, there were many parades in the United States, and irony, against Teplang's words. Is this the embodiment of democracy and freedom of speech?
It doesn't matter if brainwashed people believe they are not brainwashed. If Chinese people believe they are not being manipulated they are simply manipulated into believing the are not manipulated. Ironic isn't it.
It is simple the people/organizations that try to limit knowledge and freedom of speech always do that because they have an agenda. Having an agenda means they want to control what you know because if they succeed in controlling what you know then they also by extension control what you believe.
China claiming that foreign news outlets are lying are simply another step in controling what the chinese people believe, because if only chinese news are regarded as trustworthy they control what you believe which means they control you.
All governments wants to do this to everyone, manipulation is simply what everyone does. However if you censor the internet and censor news and information you don't like then we live in a totalitarian state, like China.
From wiki: "Mainland Chinese Internet censorship programs have censored Web sites that include (among other things):[citation needed]
Web sites belonging to "outlawed" or suppressed groups, such as pro-democracy activists and Falun Gong. News sources that often cover topics that are considered defamatory against China, such as police brutality, the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests, freedom of speech, and democracy.[64] These sites include Voice of America and the Chinese edition of BBC News. Sites related to the Taiwanese government, media, or other organizations, including sites dedicated to religious content, and most large Taiwanese community websites or blogs. Web sites that contain anything the Chinese authorities regard as obscenity or pornography. Web sites relating to criminal activity. Sites linked with the Dalai Lama, his teachings or the International Tibet Independence Movement. Most blogging sites experience frequent or permanent outages. Web sites deemed as subversive. Other topics censored include: 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests, Xinjiang re-education camps, Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China, and more."
Another Chinese are brainwashed and CCP is evil post, yet again.
So you boldly claim that Chinese are so brainwashed they don't even know they are brainwashed. How do you know you are in a safe place where all of your informations from western media (especially wiki, which most Chinese people won't read and edit) are all correct fact and neutral.
It is just hilarious to see the people live outside of China and never visited China consider themselves more knowlegable about China than people actually living there, by only watching a few video clip and reading some poorly-based reports.
I am sorry, I understand you feel affronted, my reply was only directed at user chuchuchu. I don't really believe that chinese in general are brainwashed and I certainly don't think I know anything about your country or that all I know is right.
My point is that China as a country is heavily manipulating media, that is a fact there is no way around that. Censoring knowledge or opinion is only done as I explained to further an agenda. Therefore you cannot compare western media manipulation with chinese, it is like comparing a gun to a cannon. We have a free internet where anyone may say whatever they want and everyone is free to read whatever they want. That is a fact and it means arguing that we in the west are the manipulated ones is a moot point, it is true we are manipulated but we are still less manipulated then you.
On October 10 2019 01:12 chuchuchu wrote: All people are support freedom of speech and democracy,but Japan has a Emperor，England has a Queen，US and France dont have .The same thing looks different.
I can not for the life of me guess whether this is a troll, of if he's actually brainwashed enough to think that a totalitarian regime is the same as Japan and England because they have a hyped up Emperor/Queen who are as such in name only, and doesn't actually have any real power.
On October 10 2019 01:31 jy_9876543210 wrote: Well... he's just posting whatever he had learned. The big machine doesn't care about TL forum, it's too small. He just feels that he needs to do something to help no matter how little, although the entire post sounds worse than a high school essay...
You severely underestimate the Chinese troll farm. They care about your mom's Facebook posts.
Similarly, the Chinese also think that you have been brainwashed by the West. You often talk about freedom of speech and democracy. But when the Chinese spoke themselves, you said that the Chinese were wrong and the Chinese shut up. You always talk about your own thoughts and negate other thoughts. The Chinese never say to the TV that the American values are wrong and the Western social thoughts are wrong. American things, Americans are the masters. I want to ask, can Europeans make their own decisions? Can the British be the masters themselves?
I talk about Japan and the United Kingdom. If you think that countries like Japan and the United States are the same, I hope that you can learn more about Japanese society. For example, people who committed suicide because of the emperor's abdication.
I talked about Japan and the United Kingdom because, like other countries, they are democratic and free, even with emperors and queens. Similarly, the Chinese believe that they are also democratic and free, even if it does not seem to be at all.
But the truth is this. The British can't vote for the Queen. The Japanese can't decide the Emperor. On the contrary, the Japanese Emperor has great influence. Although the Japanese often deny this political issue, Japan's political arena is still a political continuation from the Meiji Restoration before World War II. Think about the Shinzo Abe family.
Instead of ridiculing China’s autocracy, is it also ridiculing Japan’s autocracy. I don't think anyone has ridiculed President Bush. I mean two President Bush.
I want to give an example. I don't know if you can understand. In the last US election, although more than half of the people supported Hillary, Trump was still elected to the US president because the state voted more.
One person, becoming the president of a country, even if he is only supported by half of the people. Is this democracy? Is this half the tyranny of the other half? Should the United States be divided into two countries, is Hillary and Trump half?
In addition, I really like Trump's make America great gain, but I remember that if there were any mistakes, there were many parades in the United States, and irony, against Teplang's words. Is this the embodiment of democracy and freedom of speech?
It doesn't matter if brainwashed people believe they are not brainwashed. If Chinese people believe they are not being manipulated they are simply manipulated into believing the are not manipulated. Ironic isn't it.
It is simple the people/organizations that try to limit knowledge and freedom of speech always do that because they have an agenda. Having an agenda means they want to control what you know because if they succeed in controlling what you know then they also by extension control what you believe.
China claiming that foreign news outlets are lying are simply another step in controling what the chinese people believe, because if only chinese news are regarded as trustworthy they control what you believe which means they control you.
All governments wants to do this to everyone, manipulation is simply what everyone does. However if you censor the internet and censor news and information you don't like then we live in a totalitarian state, like China.
From wiki: "Mainland Chinese Internet censorship programs have censored Web sites that include (among other things):[citation needed]
Web sites belonging to "outlawed" or suppressed groups, such as pro-democracy activists and Falun Gong. News sources that often cover topics that are considered defamatory against China, such as police brutality, the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests, freedom of speech, and democracy.[64] These sites include Voice of America and the Chinese edition of BBC News. Sites related to the Taiwanese government, media, or other organizations, including sites dedicated to religious content, and most large Taiwanese community websites or blogs. Web sites that contain anything the Chinese authorities regard as obscenity or pornography. Web sites relating to criminal activity. Sites linked with the Dalai Lama, his teachings or the International Tibet Independence Movement. Most blogging sites experience frequent or permanent outages. Web sites deemed as subversive. Other topics censored include: 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests, Xinjiang re-education camps, Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China, and more."
I don't want to talk about these issues, because your approach is not through personal experience, but the Western media. I can simply say a few things. You can go and find out, maybe there is a deeper feeling. 1. Falun Gong preaches that they can acquire the same abilities as Superman. They are basically seriously ill, and they don’t have to go to the hospital. They must respect the Lord as their father, obey all commands, and basically self-immolation. I have an uncle, because he have practiced Falun Gong and he was ridiculed by everyone around me. It is true that it is unbelievable that because of socialism, the Chinese are more convinced of science. 2. The problem of Tibet, the territorial issue need not be said more. The primitive religion of Tibet was ruled in Tibet. At that time, the Chinese Communist Party’s army hoped to peacefully reunite Tibet. However, they found that Tibetan religion actually practiced slavery. Tibet’s situation is like Leo. Pod II is like his Congolese Free State. Of course you see a kindly exile, telling you some mysterious oriental religious thoughts, but he never told you that he used to be a slave owner, using the religious utensils of the human skin, and the things like the sister drum. I hope that you will not be afraid at night. You can also check Mao Zedong's position in Tibet. You may not believe it. He is considered to be a generation of Tibetan religious leaders (there are paper documents, museums I see). 3. Organ problems. China is not a country that is always complete, or even a relatively complete law. We are working hard, but I think that China, which was chaotic years ago, is developing too fast, so we often say that we used In less than 30 years, it has gone through hundreds of years of Western history, and modern civilization and primitive agricultural civilization coexist. If you are curious, in the public network search, sell your kidneys to buy Apple mobile news, you may understand that organ problems are not government manipulation, but the product of low education, unsound laws, and chaotic times. It’s gone now, because everything has changed. The Chinese government does not need to buy and sell organs to make money. This is very naive. Do you think China is authoritarian? Only the government needs a word, where to buy and sell organs. 4, Beijing 1989, you can go to Wikipedia to see, because I also saw where, from a person who accepts Chinese culture, I will not believe that: I can not die, they can bleed, but I am going to the United States . There are also the same experiencers who said that the massacre did not exist. But does it exist? You can search for the complete video of the tank, which is the video of the person being taken away after the circumvention. You can also search for photos of some police and soldiers being burned on the flyover. It is true that they have treated people with restraint, but unfortunately people sometimes do not treat them with restraint, just like Hong Kong now.
I'm sorry but I don't care. The issues you describe above are topics that the Chinese government censor, either A) You have researched sources that are banned in your country and thus learned truths that your government wants to hide from you.
Or
B) You are writing the information that the Chinese goverment are feeding you while at the same time saying that it is not allowed to fact check this information.
So either you have broken your countries rules and gone out of your way to research what you are not allowed to research, which in and of itself is proof that you don't agree with the rules of your country. Or you are just ignorantly repeating the drivel spoonfed to your by the government.
On October 10 2019 01:04 Spirit_HUN wrote: When this player signed up for that tournament, he accepted the rules. He simply broke the rules, ended up banning himself.
Blizzard did the right thing. This is a video game company, not a political platform. If you are concerned about human rights in Hong Kong the are other ways, platforms to do that.
You should not force a video game company to be political. There are no political comments in the Olympics, Football, Formula1 etc. as well.
I dont want video games, sports events to be filled with politics. Viewers are there to be entertained, competitors are there to compete, and not to be forced to eat political bs 0-24.
They’re not a political platform, but they do have a clear political position here which is tow whatever line the Chinese authorities want them to tow.
Seems to me it was a pretty good platform for the guy to use really, although the attention it gained was more from Blizzard’s reaction than his actions specifically. Gained a fuckload of traction even US Senators are wading in, doubt he’d have been able to elicit such a response with a tweet.
China and especially the Gulf States use sport as an extension of their soft power, they’ve made it political already, likewise the Cold War saw sporting events like the Olympics as an ideological battleground.
if it is not an political extension of soft power,why some officials of the organization are talking about politics？if not,STOP talking.As an official, you can't blatantly confront the Chinese public opinion while thinking that discrimination against Chinese people, Chinese culture and support separatism and violence.
Why not?
National self-determination is a key principle of geopolitics in the modern era.
Considering a bomb blew in the windows of my house when I was but a babe, I’m quite happy that the United States interceded and helped facilitate a peace here that respected both of the national identities in our wee country.
I would personally like to see more of China and its culture emerge onto the world stage, an old and venerable culture indeed, whose people have accomplished remarkable things in the last few decades especially.
If it’s by trampling on everyone and expecting Westerners to bend to their whims and where criticism is construed as a grievous insult then, no thanks.
When you think so, have you ever asked about the thoughts of ordinary Chinese? It's like I'm here to express the thoughts of an ordinary Chinese. Indeed, I feel sad that I didn't learn English well, because what I lost is not a good paper, but an opportunity to communicate with others.
Not only Americans can define the world. The pioneers of socialism and communism are Germans and French. Formerly President Roosevelt of the United States was also criticized for socialism or communism. But think about Chinese history, the current development of China, and the past workers of Britain.
Some ideological conflicts are unavoidable, especially under the propaganda of some western media, they usually distort the report in order to satisfy their own interests.
China does not do very well in many places, but it does not want to do so. No Chinese wants his country to be like India with the same population. (I do not mean to discriminate. Most Chinese want to live a good life first and guarantee everyone the same rights, wealth, rights and status.)
In China, it is still possible to elect people who have been upgraded from the grassroots level through examinations and votes, while officials at the grassroots level are also elected.
In China, former leaders were even born to poor peasants rather than a billion-dollar owner or equally wealthy political family. Both father and son are presidents.
Western media believe that China is undemocratic and not free, and the Chinese believe that they are free and democratic. This seems to be a disgusting tactic.
I was disappointed with many of the statements, especially those of the distorted Sixth Fourth Movement (my father was one of the participants, but later they built China into the second largest country in the world), and those who believed that the Hong Kong police should not react to any of the protestors'actions.
When commenting, consider that China has 1.4 billion people. This country can not change because of the ideas of more than a dozen people, thousands of people and tens of thousands of people.
The most important thing is to ensure that more than a billion people, like other Westerners, can live with wealth and dignity on this planet.
I wonder what this guy thinks about the hundreds of students that were murdered at Tienanmen Square in 1989.
On October 10 2019 02:58 Zaros wrote: I will stop supporting Hearthstone or watching any Hearthstone content, I barely play starcraft but I do watch all the tournaments and will continue to do so for now but I will see if Blizzard has any change in policy.
I think a lot of the Chinese media/government have obviously tried to paint the protesters as terrorists and criminals but they have also tried to make it as if Hong Kong wants to be an independent country (which some do want but that is a minority) rather than having the freedoms they were guaranteed while being a part of China.
China signed an international treaty with the UK that guaranteed the rights of Hong Kong'ers for 50 years, it is blatantly breaking that treaty, there should be a bigger UK and international response.
Do you support Northern Ireland independence, Scotland independence?
I don't support either but I would accept it if the people voted for it, I don't support Hong Kong independence either, it has no basis as a country its only ever been part of China, one of its historic kingdoms or the British Empire. I do support Human rights for everyone on Earth and unfortunately its easier to get riled about someone having their rights taken away in this case Hong Kong rather than someone never having them in the first place e.g. mainland China.
On October 10 2019 03:08 chuchuchu wrote: I don't want to talk about these issues, because your approach is not through personal experience, but the Western media. I can simply say a few things. You can go and find out, maybe there is a deeper feeling. 1. Falun Gong preaches that they can acquire the same abilities as Superman. They are basically seriously ill, and they don’t have to go to the hospital. They must respect the Lord as their father, obey all commands, and basically self-immolation. I have an uncle, because he have practiced Falun Gong and he was ridiculed by everyone around me. It is true that it is unbelievable that because of socialism, the Chinese are more convinced of science. 2. The problem of Tibet, the territorial issue need not be said more. The primitive religion of Tibet was ruled in Tibet. At that time, the Chinese Communist Party’s army hoped to peacefully reunite Tibet. However, they found that Tibetan religion actually practiced slavery. Tibet’s situation is like Leo. Pod II is like his Congolese Free State. Of course you see a kindly exile, telling you some mysterious oriental religious thoughts, but he never told you that he used to be a slave owner, using the religious utensils of the human skin, and the things like the sister drum. I hope that you will not be afraid at night. You can also check Mao Zedong's position in Tibet. You may not believe it. He is considered to be a generation of Tibetan religious leaders (there are paper documents, museums I see). 3. Organ problems. China is not a country that is always complete, or even a relatively complete law. We are working hard, but I think that China, which was chaotic years ago, is developing too fast, so we often say that we used In less than 30 years, it has gone through hundreds of years of Western history, and modern civilization and primitive agricultural civilization coexist. If you are curious, in the public network search, sell your kidneys to buy Apple mobile news, you may understand that organ problems are not government manipulation, but the product of low education, unsound laws, and chaotic times. It’s gone now, because everything has changed. The Chinese government does not need to buy and sell organs to make money. This is very naive. Do you think China is authoritarian? Only the government needs a word, where to buy and sell organs. 4, Beijing 1989, you can go to Wikipedia to see, because I also saw where, from a person who accepts Chinese culture, I will not believe that: I can not die, they can bleed, but I am going to the United States . There are also the same experiencers who said that the massacre did not exist. But does it exist? You can search for the complete video of the tank, which is the video of the person being taken away after the circumvention. You can also search for photos of some police and soldiers being burned on the flyover. It is true that they have treated people with restraint, but unfortunately people sometimes do not treat them with restraint, just like Hong Kong now.
This is pure unadulterated Chinese propaganda. Reminds of when I was in Shanghai, a local man for some strange reason completely unprompted decide to tell me about the evils of Falun Gong. How their most senior adherents would kill themselves by slicing their bellies open to their followers because they felt the wheel turning in them. When I asked how they would pass on their beliefs then seeing as they would be dead, he just looked at me with a blank stare. I am not joking.
Activision/Blizzard is making really strange moves from the business side.
In the past Blizzard was the AAA-blockbuster company. They would make games that try to appeal to everyone, but mostly users of personal computers. Their historical markets were "West" (USA, Europe, Australia), they got lucky with Korea (but Korea has a lot of own games) and they tried to have some success in Japan (but Japanese players seem to prefer console games, not PC games).
Now they seem to move towards pay-2-win, reskins of other games... for mobile phones. In fact they seem to ignore their traditional "Western" markets - and they try to compete with Chinese companies for Chinese market. But how is this supposed to work? If your game is not good enough to everyone (whole world), they want to be able to compete with Chinese.. while being situated in USA? I dont mention that their team probably earns 10x more than a typical Chinese developer... people from China know their own country/language/playerbase better - so some local Chinese company can make a better mobile game for China - because they are making a game for themselves. Some manager from USA thinks that he knows China good enough, if he does not live there?
Companies need to innovate, or at least join new markets. But they are not innovating, they want to release reskins of shitty mobile phone games for Chinese players. As if those Chinese players were so stupid that they didnt know those are reskins. Also making such games is not in Blizzard expertise. (although it does not mean that they will not learn, but looking at the results so far, they are very outside of own experise - in both game making and marketing - the backlask against Diablo Immortal was increidible). They basically alienate their old playerbase, their old customers in hope that they can get new customers in China. Even if it worked, it would make them dependent on Chinese government and public opinion. I mean, most mainland Chinese seem to be very nationalistic, so they drink this coolaid, but in most other countries, people inside would also boycott Blizzard too.
What baffles is most is that I simply dont believe that a company located in USA has a chance to compete with Chinese game makers who know the local markets better. Do they think that some US-designer is better than a Chinese designer? Someone from China probably knows better what other Chinese like. In fact if Blizzard's games are not good to appeal to "whole world", I dont think their brand will appeal to Chinese players.
Why would you even want to have a studio in California? Outsource / outshore it all to China. But this probably means that Blizzard will die.
On October 10 2019 01:12 chuchuchu wrote: All people are support freedom of speech and democracy,but Japan has a Emperor，England has a Queen，US and France dont have .The same thing looks different.
I can not for the life of me guess whether this is a troll, of if he's actually brainwashed enough to think that a totalitarian regime is the same as Japan and England because they have a hyped up Emperor/Queen who are as such in name only, and doesn't actually have any real power.
On October 10 2019 01:31 jy_9876543210 wrote: Well... he's just posting whatever he had learned. The big machine doesn't care about TL forum, it's too small. He just feels that he needs to do something to help no matter how little, although the entire post sounds worse than a high school essay...
You severely underestimate the Chinese troll farm. They care about your mom's Facebook posts.
Similarly, the Chinese also think that you have been brainwashed by the West. You often talk about freedom of speech and democracy. But when the Chinese spoke themselves, you said that the Chinese were wrong and the Chinese shut up. You always talk about your own thoughts and negate other thoughts. The Chinese never say to the TV that the American values are wrong and the Western social thoughts are wrong. American things, Americans are the masters. I want to ask, can Europeans make their own decisions? Can the British be the masters themselves?
I talk about Japan and the United Kingdom. If you think that countries like Japan and the United States are the same, I hope that you can learn more about Japanese society. For example, people who committed suicide because of the emperor's abdication.
I talked about Japan and the United Kingdom because, like other countries, they are democratic and free, even with emperors and queens. Similarly, the Chinese believe that they are also democratic and free, even if it does not seem to be at all.
But the truth is this. The British can't vote for the Queen. The Japanese can't decide the Emperor. On the contrary, the Japanese Emperor has great influence. Although the Japanese often deny this political issue, Japan's political arena is still a political continuation from the Meiji Restoration before World War II. Think about the Shinzo Abe family.
Instead of ridiculing China’s autocracy, is it also ridiculing Japan’s autocracy. I don't think anyone has ridiculed President Bush. I mean two President Bush.
I want to give an example. I don't know if you can understand. In the last US election, although more than half of the people supported Hillary, Trump was still elected to the US president because the state voted more.
One person, becoming the president of a country, even if he is only supported by half of the people. Is this democracy? Is this half the tyranny of the other half? Should the United States be divided into two countries, is Hillary and Trump half?
In addition, I really like Trump's make America great gain, but I remember that if there were any mistakes, there were many parades in the United States, and irony, against Teplang's words. Is this the embodiment of democracy and freedom of speech?
It doesn't matter if brainwashed people believe they are not brainwashed. If Chinese people believe they are not being manipulated they are simply manipulated into believing the are not manipulated. Ironic isn't it.
It is simple the people/organizations that try to limit knowledge and freedom of speech always do that because they have an agenda. Having an agenda means they want to control what you know because if they succeed in controlling what you know then they also by extension control what you believe.
China claiming that foreign news outlets are lying are simply another step in controling what the chinese people believe, because if only chinese news are regarded as trustworthy they control what you believe which means they control you.
All governments wants to do this to everyone, manipulation is simply what everyone does. However if you censor the internet and censor news and information you don't like then we live in a totalitarian state, like China.
From wiki: "Mainland Chinese Internet censorship programs have censored Web sites that include (among other things):[citation needed]
Web sites belonging to "outlawed" or suppressed groups, such as pro-democracy activists and Falun Gong. News sources that often cover topics that are considered defamatory against China, such as police brutality, the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests, freedom of speech, and democracy.[64] These sites include Voice of America and the Chinese edition of BBC News. Sites related to the Taiwanese government, media, or other organizations, including sites dedicated to religious content, and most large Taiwanese community websites or blogs. Web sites that contain anything the Chinese authorities regard as obscenity or pornography. Web sites relating to criminal activity. Sites linked with the Dalai Lama, his teachings or the International Tibet Independence Movement. Most blogging sites experience frequent or permanent outages. Web sites deemed as subversive. Other topics censored include: 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests, Xinjiang re-education camps, Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China, and more."
Another Chinese are brainwashed and CCP is evil post, yet again.
So you boldly claim that Chinese are so brainwashed they don't even know they are brainwashed. How do you know you are in a safe place where all of your informations from western media (especially wiki, which most Chinese people won't read and edit) are all correct fact and neutral.
It is just hilarious to see the people live outside of China and never visited China consider themselves more knowlegable about China than people actually living there, by only watching a few video clip and reading some poorly-based reports.
I don’t particularly like the word brainwashed, as it infers negative connotations to the recipient, be it a lack of critical faculties or whatever.
I really don’t think it’s arguable that Westerners have more open access to information than Chinese people. It’s not hearsay or some misconception it just absolutely the case.
The two media spheres are not at all equivalent. In the West there is a veritable fuckton of bullshit out there, and people trying to convince people to lean in a certain direction, absolutely. But these entities are all in competition for the hearts and minds of people in our area of the world, and a discerning person can sift through and make up their own minds.
In China, there is one real arbiter on information that has particular goals, and people do not have (easy) access to information outside of those parameters.
I, as a Chinese, have stay in the states for almost 10 years. And I believe I have access to both voices from inside and outside of China. The problem is that the media power gap is so huge that western people simply won't listen to other voices, or even simply consider they are wrong. Because they think they already know everything.
Just as I have said, it is simply hilarious if you think you know China better than a Chinese. Even with the block, most Chinese people find their access to the information they need, a free proxy network is not that hard to find in China.
On October 10 2019 01:12 chuchuchu wrote: All people are support freedom of speech and democracy,but Japan has a Emperor，England has a Queen，US and France dont have .The same thing looks different.
I can not for the life of me guess whether this is a troll, of if he's actually brainwashed enough to think that a totalitarian regime is the same as Japan and England because they have a hyped up Emperor/Queen who are as such in name only, and doesn't actually have any real power.
On October 10 2019 01:31 jy_9876543210 wrote: Well... he's just posting whatever he had learned. The big machine doesn't care about TL forum, it's too small. He just feels that he needs to do something to help no matter how little, although the entire post sounds worse than a high school essay...
You severely underestimate the Chinese troll farm. They care about your mom's Facebook posts.
Similarly, the Chinese also think that you have been brainwashed by the West. You often talk about freedom of speech and democracy. But when the Chinese spoke themselves, you said that the Chinese were wrong and the Chinese shut up. You always talk about your own thoughts and negate other thoughts. The Chinese never say to the TV that the American values are wrong and the Western social thoughts are wrong. American things, Americans are the masters. I want to ask, can Europeans make their own decisions? Can the British be the masters themselves?
I talk about Japan and the United Kingdom. If you think that countries like Japan and the United States are the same, I hope that you can learn more about Japanese society. For example, people who committed suicide because of the emperor's abdication.
I talked about Japan and the United Kingdom because, like other countries, they are democratic and free, even with emperors and queens. Similarly, the Chinese believe that they are also democratic and free, even if it does not seem to be at all.
But the truth is this. The British can't vote for the Queen. The Japanese can't decide the Emperor. On the contrary, the Japanese Emperor has great influence. Although the Japanese often deny this political issue, Japan's political arena is still a political continuation from the Meiji Restoration before World War II. Think about the Shinzo Abe family.
Instead of ridiculing China’s autocracy, is it also ridiculing Japan’s autocracy. I don't think anyone has ridiculed President Bush. I mean two President Bush.
I want to give an example. I don't know if you can understand. In the last US election, although more than half of the people supported Hillary, Trump was still elected to the US president because the state voted more.
One person, becoming the president of a country, even if he is only supported by half of the people. Is this democracy? Is this half the tyranny of the other half? Should the United States be divided into two countries, is Hillary and Trump half?
In addition, I really like Trump's make America great gain, but I remember that if there were any mistakes, there were many parades in the United States, and irony, against Teplang's words. Is this the embodiment of democracy and freedom of speech?
It doesn't matter if brainwashed people believe they are not brainwashed. If Chinese people believe they are not being manipulated they are simply manipulated into believing the are not manipulated. Ironic isn't it.
It is simple the people/organizations that try to limit knowledge and freedom of speech always do that because they have an agenda. Having an agenda means they want to control what you know because if they succeed in controlling what you know then they also by extension control what you believe.
China claiming that foreign news outlets are lying are simply another step in controling what the chinese people believe, because if only chinese news are regarded as trustworthy they control what you believe which means they control you.
All governments wants to do this to everyone, manipulation is simply what everyone does. However if you censor the internet and censor news and information you don't like then we live in a totalitarian state, like China.
From wiki: "Mainland Chinese Internet censorship programs have censored Web sites that include (among other things):[citation needed]
Web sites belonging to "outlawed" or suppressed groups, such as pro-democracy activists and Falun Gong. News sources that often cover topics that are considered defamatory against China, such as police brutality, the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests, freedom of speech, and democracy.[64] These sites include Voice of America and the Chinese edition of BBC News. Sites related to the Taiwanese government, media, or other organizations, including sites dedicated to religious content, and most large Taiwanese community websites or blogs. Web sites that contain anything the Chinese authorities regard as obscenity or pornography. Web sites relating to criminal activity. Sites linked with the Dalai Lama, his teachings or the International Tibet Independence Movement. Most blogging sites experience frequent or permanent outages. Web sites deemed as subversive. Other topics censored include: 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests, Xinjiang re-education camps, Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China, and more."
Another Chinese are brainwashed and CCP is evil post, yet again.
So you boldly claim that Chinese are so brainwashed they don't even know they are brainwashed. How do you know you are in a safe place where all of your informations from western media (especially wiki, which most Chinese people won't read and edit) are all correct fact and neutral.
It is just hilarious to see the people live outside of China and never visited China consider themselves more knowlegable about China than people actually living there, by only watching a few video clip and reading some poorly-based reports.
For one, our media is allowed to criticise our own government, and does so repeatedly. That alone should be enough proof that they aren't controlled. Neither is anything censored anywhere (With the exception of things like child porn and threats of violence, thank god).
So you can't claim that we're being brainwashed when we have open channels to all forms of communications, something China isn't willing to do.
On October 10 2019 02:58 Zaros wrote: I will stop supporting Hearthstone or watching any Hearthstone content, I barely play starcraft but I do watch all the tournaments and will continue to do so for now but I will see if Blizzard has any change in policy.
I think a lot of the Chinese media/government have obviously tried to paint the protesters as terrorists and criminals but they have also tried to make it as if Hong Kong wants to be an independent country (which some do want but that is a minority) rather than having the freedoms they were guaranteed while being a part of China.
China signed an international treaty with the UK that guaranteed the rights of Hong Kong'ers for 50 years, it is blatantly breaking that treaty, there should be a bigger UK and international response.
Do you support Northern Ireland independence, Scotland independence?
I'm not the guy you asked, but let me answer anyways: Yes and Yes. In fact, it's very likely Scotland might go independent if England finalises their Brexit. At which point England or anyone else can't and shouldn't stop them from doing so.
In China, people criticize the government as much, and even use some of the leaders' emoji is very popular. People criticize the country as much. However, the Chinese are very subtle about this. We are not willing to be high-profile and openly confrontation, which will only be more intense. We like to sit down and have dinner together and have a happy discussion. It is decided by experts from all walks of life. At the same time, in Chinese culture, there is a culture that respects the elders. In fact, East Asian culture is.
Rather than the Americans who protested to Trump as president, everyone would like to rock metal bands, then go to drugs, feel cool, China is more mature in politics, we all know that false propaganda is meaningless, so Even socialism has changed in China, leaving only the core and changing its form.
Is there no review elsewhere in the world? What is the FBI and CIA doing? I still remember the news that terrorists passed the message through World of Warcraft, and Snowden went into exile because he told people that the US government was listening to everyone on the planet, listening to Merkel, the German chancellor. Think about Google's push and the recent collection of mass information from Apple. The government can be their spokesperson. Think about who provided the funds for the campaign. Is it provided by Russians who have been largely deleted?
One joke is that the Americans said that China's Huawei company would monitor and cause cyber threats. Then the German Chancellor asked him what evidence he had. The Americans said they were listening to Huawei's mobile phone.
China's censorship is not as terrible as you think. In other words, it is usually child pornography or racist speech. Of course, capitalism in China is the same as socialism in the United States.
If China is really as you said, you will see, China StarCraft 2 League? See the game of time? We are very free, you will be here, on Twitter, on youtube, on Facebook, or do you think why the NBA and this Blizzard event have become what they are today?
We can all see it, but in China, it is quite ridiculous for the Chinese to read the Western media. By the way, I have been to Europe 3 times, so the EU countries, Japan, South Korea, Singapore, USA, Canada, I I have not been to Russia yet, but I decided to go there next year. I know what these places look like.
On the one hand, the vast majority of Chinese cannot communicate in languages other than Chinese. On the one hand, Chinese people like their own culture and are not willing to communicate. Especially on the web.
China also has an advanced network, just some apps or websites. The West is not as good as China's, such as copying the wechat line, and so on. Of course, Westerners often don't believe it.
I also often read many journal articles like Economists. If BBC can put the last time Oxford's compensation about the British against the colony, and their former boss sexual assault on the website, I believe he will be blocked for a later time.
In fact, Westerners are not to be seen in China. I think it is prejudice, but this is caused by Westerners themselves, such as the genocide in Africa, India, and the American continent (American Indians are yellowers), and Unfair treatment of China during the First World War, as well as the war violence in the late Qing Dynasty in China, and semi-colonial behavior. For example, Hong Kong has a deep sting for China.
At some point, people tend to think that this is just a racial superiority of Caucasians and wants to impose ideas on people in other regions.
Although the Chinese also confront the Japanese, at least the Chinese love Japan in many ways, because Japan will not do so.
What I often saw when I was a child was the advanced of Western civilization. My favorite is nasa, but unfortunately I am afraid that I have no chance with aerospace. Whether it is media or school education, the United States and Europe are exemplary. It’s a pity that when I grew up and traveled around the world, the Internet started, but I found out that this is not the case. Americans are not all scientists and astronauts, nor Michael Jackson, nor do they sing we are the world. .
On October 10 2019 01:12 chuchuchu wrote: All people are support freedom of speech and democracy,but Japan has a Emperor，England has a Queen，US and France dont have .The same thing looks different.
I can not for the life of me guess whether this is a troll, of if he's actually brainwashed enough to think that a totalitarian regime is the same as Japan and England because they have a hyped up Emperor/Queen who are as such in name only, and doesn't actually have any real power.
On October 10 2019 01:31 jy_9876543210 wrote: Well... he's just posting whatever he had learned. The big machine doesn't care about TL forum, it's too small. He just feels that he needs to do something to help no matter how little, although the entire post sounds worse than a high school essay...
You severely underestimate the Chinese troll farm. They care about your mom's Facebook posts.
Similarly, the Chinese also think that you have been brainwashed by the West. You often talk about freedom of speech and democracy. But when the Chinese spoke themselves, you said that the Chinese were wrong and the Chinese shut up. You always talk about your own thoughts and negate other thoughts. The Chinese never say to the TV that the American values are wrong and the Western social thoughts are wrong. American things, Americans are the masters. I want to ask, can Europeans make their own decisions? Can the British be the masters themselves?
I talk about Japan and the United Kingdom. If you think that countries like Japan and the United States are the same, I hope that you can learn more about Japanese society. For example, people who committed suicide because of the emperor's abdication.
I talked about Japan and the United Kingdom because, like other countries, they are democratic and free, even with emperors and queens. Similarly, the Chinese believe that they are also democratic and free, even if it does not seem to be at all.
But the truth is this. The British can't vote for the Queen. The Japanese can't decide the Emperor. On the contrary, the Japanese Emperor has great influence. Although the Japanese often deny this political issue, Japan's political arena is still a political continuation from the Meiji Restoration before World War II. Think about the Shinzo Abe family.
Instead of ridiculing China’s autocracy, is it also ridiculing Japan’s autocracy. I don't think anyone has ridiculed President Bush. I mean two President Bush.
I want to give an example. I don't know if you can understand. In the last US election, although more than half of the people supported Hillary, Trump was still elected to the US president because the state voted more.
One person, becoming the president of a country, even if he is only supported by half of the people. Is this democracy? Is this half the tyranny of the other half? Should the United States be divided into two countries, is Hillary and Trump half?
In addition, I really like Trump's make America great gain, but I remember that if there were any mistakes, there were many parades in the United States, and irony, against Teplang's words. Is this the embodiment of democracy and freedom of speech?
It doesn't matter if brainwashed people believe they are not brainwashed. If Chinese people believe they are not being manipulated they are simply manipulated into believing the are not manipulated. Ironic isn't it.
It is simple the people/organizations that try to limit knowledge and freedom of speech always do that because they have an agenda. Having an agenda means they want to control what you know because if they succeed in controlling what you know then they also by extension control what you believe.
China claiming that foreign news outlets are lying are simply another step in controling what the chinese people believe, because if only chinese news are regarded as trustworthy they control what you believe which means they control you.
All governments wants to do this to everyone, manipulation is simply what everyone does. However if you censor the internet and censor news and information you don't like then we live in a totalitarian state, like China.
From wiki: "Mainland Chinese Internet censorship programs have censored Web sites that include (among other things):[citation needed]
Web sites belonging to "outlawed" or suppressed groups, such as pro-democracy activists and Falun Gong. News sources that often cover topics that are considered defamatory against China, such as police brutality, the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests, freedom of speech, and democracy.[64] These sites include Voice of America and the Chinese edition of BBC News. Sites related to the Taiwanese government, media, or other organizations, including sites dedicated to religious content, and most large Taiwanese community websites or blogs. Web sites that contain anything the Chinese authorities regard as obscenity or pornography. Web sites relating to criminal activity. Sites linked with the Dalai Lama, his teachings or the International Tibet Independence Movement. Most blogging sites experience frequent or permanent outages. Web sites deemed as subversive. Other topics censored include: 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests, Xinjiang re-education camps, Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China, and more."
Another Chinese are brainwashed and CCP is evil post, yet again.
So you boldly claim that Chinese are so brainwashed they don't even know they are brainwashed. How do you know you are in a safe place where all of your informations from western media (especially wiki, which most Chinese people won't read and edit) are all correct fact and neutral.
It is just hilarious to see the people live outside of China and never visited China consider themselves more knowlegable about China than people actually living there, by only watching a few video clip and reading some poorly-based reports.
I am sorry, I understand you feel affronted, my reply was only directed at user chuchuchu. I don't really believe that chinese in general are brainwashed and I certainly don't think I know anything about your country or that all I know is right.
My point is that China as a country is heavily manipulating media, that is a fact there is no way around that. Censoring knowledge or opinion is only done as I explained to further an agenda. Therefore you cannot compare western media manipulation with chinese, it is like comparing a gun to a cannon. We have a free internet where anyone may say whatever they want and everyone is free to read whatever they want. That is a fact and it means arguing that we in the west are the manipulated ones is a moot point, it is true we are manipulated but we are still less manipulated then you.
On October 10 2019 01:12 chuchuchu wrote: All people are support freedom of speech and democracy,but Japan has a Emperor，England has a Queen，US and France dont have .The same thing looks different.
I can not for the life of me guess whether this is a troll, of if he's actually brainwashed enough to think that a totalitarian regime is the same as Japan and England because they have a hyped up Emperor/Queen who are as such in name only, and doesn't actually have any real power.
On October 10 2019 01:31 jy_9876543210 wrote: Well... he's just posting whatever he had learned. The big machine doesn't care about TL forum, it's too small. He just feels that he needs to do something to help no matter how little, although the entire post sounds worse than a high school essay...
You severely underestimate the Chinese troll farm. They care about your mom's Facebook posts.
Similarly, the Chinese also think that you have been brainwashed by the West. You often talk about freedom of speech and democracy. But when the Chinese spoke themselves, you said that the Chinese were wrong and the Chinese shut up. You always talk about your own thoughts and negate other thoughts. The Chinese never say to the TV that the American values are wrong and the Western social thoughts are wrong. American things, Americans are the masters. I want to ask, can Europeans make their own decisions? Can the British be the masters themselves?
I talk about Japan and the United Kingdom. If you think that countries like Japan and the United States are the same, I hope that you can learn more about Japanese society. For example, people who committed suicide because of the emperor's abdication.
I talked about Japan and the United Kingdom because, like other countries, they are democratic and free, even with emperors and queens. Similarly, the Chinese believe that they are also democratic and free, even if it does not seem to be at all.
But the truth is this. The British can't vote for the Queen. The Japanese can't decide the Emperor. On the contrary, the Japanese Emperor has great influence. Although the Japanese often deny this political issue, Japan's political arena is still a political continuation from the Meiji Restoration before World War II. Think about the Shinzo Abe family.
Instead of ridiculing China’s autocracy, is it also ridiculing Japan’s autocracy. I don't think anyone has ridiculed President Bush. I mean two President Bush.
I want to give an example. I don't know if you can understand. In the last US election, although more than half of the people supported Hillary, Trump was still elected to the US president because the state voted more.
One person, becoming the president of a country, even if he is only supported by half of the people. Is this democracy? Is this half the tyranny of the other half? Should the United States be divided into two countries, is Hillary and Trump half?
In addition, I really like Trump's make America great gain, but I remember that if there were any mistakes, there were many parades in the United States, and irony, against Teplang's words. Is this the embodiment of democracy and freedom of speech?
It doesn't matter if brainwashed people believe they are not brainwashed. If Chinese people believe they are not being manipulated they are simply manipulated into believing the are not manipulated. Ironic isn't it.
It is simple the people/organizations that try to limit knowledge and freedom of speech always do that because they have an agenda. Having an agenda means they want to control what you know because if they succeed in controlling what you know then they also by extension control what you believe.
China claiming that foreign news outlets are lying are simply another step in controling what the chinese people believe, because if only chinese news are regarded as trustworthy they control what you believe which means they control you.
All governments wants to do this to everyone, manipulation is simply what everyone does. However if you censor the internet and censor news and information you don't like then we live in a totalitarian state, like China.
From wiki: "Mainland Chinese Internet censorship programs have censored Web sites that include (among other things):[citation needed]
Web sites belonging to "outlawed" or suppressed groups, such as pro-democracy activists and Falun Gong. News sources that often cover topics that are considered defamatory against China, such as police brutality, the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests, freedom of speech, and democracy.[64] These sites include Voice of America and the Chinese edition of BBC News. Sites related to the Taiwanese government, media, or other organizations, including sites dedicated to religious content, and most large Taiwanese community websites or blogs. Web sites that contain anything the Chinese authorities regard as obscenity or pornography. Web sites relating to criminal activity. Sites linked with the Dalai Lama, his teachings or the International Tibet Independence Movement. Most blogging sites experience frequent or permanent outages. Web sites deemed as subversive. Other topics censored include: 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests, Xinjiang re-education camps, Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China, and more."
I don't want to talk about these issues, because your approach is not through personal experience, but the Western media. I can simply say a few things. You can go and find out, maybe there is a deeper feeling. 1. Falun Gong preaches that they can acquire the same abilities as Superman. They are basically seriously ill, and they don’t have to go to the hospital. They must respect the Lord as their father, obey all commands, and basically self-immolation. I have an uncle, because he have practiced Falun Gong and he was ridiculed by everyone around me. It is true that it is unbelievable that because of socialism, the Chinese are more convinced of science. 2. The problem of Tibet, the territorial issue need not be said more. The primitive religion of Tibet was ruled in Tibet. At that time, the Chinese Communist Party’s army hoped to peacefully reunite Tibet. However, they found that Tibetan religion actually practiced slavery. Tibet’s situation is like Leo. Pod II is like his Congolese Free State. Of course you see a kindly exile, telling you some mysterious oriental religious thoughts, but he never told you that he used to be a slave owner, using the religious utensils of the human skin, and the things like the sister drum. I hope that you will not be afraid at night. You can also check Mao Zedong's position in Tibet. You may not believe it. He is considered to be a generation of Tibetan religious leaders (there are paper documents, museums I see). 3. Organ problems. China is not a country that is always complete, or even a relatively complete law. We are working hard, but I think that China, which was chaotic years ago, is developing too fast, so we often say that we used In less than 30 years, it has gone through hundreds of years of Western history, and modern civilization and primitive agricultural civilization coexist. If you are curious, in the public network search, sell your kidneys to buy Apple mobile news, you may understand that organ problems are not government manipulation, but the product of low education, unsound laws, and chaotic times. It’s gone now, because everything has changed. The Chinese government does not need to buy and sell organs to make money. This is very naive. Do you think China is authoritarian? Only the government needs a word, where to buy and sell organs. 4, Beijing 1989, you can go to Wikipedia to see, because I also saw where, from a person who accepts Chinese culture, I will not believe that: I can not die, they can bleed, but I am going to the United States . There are also the same experiencers who said that the massacre did not exist. But does it exist? You can search for the complete video of the tank, which is the video of the person being taken away after the circumvention. You can also search for photos of some police and soldiers being burned on the flyover. It is true that they have treated people with restraint, but unfortunately people sometimes do not treat them with restraint, just like Hong Kong now.
I'm sorry but I don't care. The issues you describe above are topics that the Chinese government censor, either A) You have researched sources that are banned in your country and thus learned truths that your government wants to hide from you.
Or
B) You are writing the information that the Chinese goverment are feeding you while at the same time saying that it is not allowed to fact check this information.
So either you have broken your countries rules and gone out of your way to research what you are not allowed to research, which in and of itself is proof that you don't agree with the rules of your country. Or you are just ignorantly repeating the drivel spoonfed to your by the government.
Obviously, I am now active in the same environment as you. I don't know where we both have information asymmetry, or if you are serving the UK or the CIA, so you know something that won't be known to the public. You are using a limited amount of things you see in the Western media (in fact, most, not all) to question a person who has personal experience while living in China and the West, one that has access to almost all information networks (China) The network administrator is not scary for 20 years. At least I have downloaded some Japanese movies in the last 10 years, so you can imagine what we can find on the Chinese network.)
So what you see, in the media or on the internet, I have seen it. If you claim that you have more information than me. I can only think that it is like Marco Polo who once thought China is the country of gold.
And because there is something about China, so many Chinese are very interested in it, even when they are discussing with their parents, like a legendary novel.
However, he failed to launch a new Crusade through this statement (whether Westerners like the Eastern Expedition or launch a global war, this is a humorous ridicule, I hope you can understand and respect my values)
On October 10 2019 01:12 chuchuchu wrote: All people are support freedom of speech and democracy,but Japan has a Emperor，England has a Queen，US and France dont have .The same thing looks different.
I can not for the life of me guess whether this is a troll, of if he's actually brainwashed enough to think that a totalitarian regime is the same as Japan and England because they have a hyped up Emperor/Queen who are as such in name only, and doesn't actually have any real power.
On October 10 2019 01:31 jy_9876543210 wrote: Well... he's just posting whatever he had learned. The big machine doesn't care about TL forum, it's too small. He just feels that he needs to do something to help no matter how little, although the entire post sounds worse than a high school essay...
You severely underestimate the Chinese troll farm. They care about your mom's Facebook posts.
Similarly, the Chinese also think that you have been brainwashed by the West. You often talk about freedom of speech and democracy. But when the Chinese spoke themselves, you said that the Chinese were wrong and the Chinese shut up. You always talk about your own thoughts and negate other thoughts. The Chinese never say to the TV that the American values are wrong and the Western social thoughts are wrong. American things, Americans are the masters. I want to ask, can Europeans make their own decisions? Can the British be the masters themselves?
I talk about Japan and the United Kingdom. If you think that countries like Japan and the United States are the same, I hope that you can learn more about Japanese society. For example, people who committed suicide because of the emperor's abdication.
I talked about Japan and the United Kingdom because, like other countries, they are democratic and free, even with emperors and queens. Similarly, the Chinese believe that they are also democratic and free, even if it does not seem to be at all.
But the truth is this. The British can't vote for the Queen. The Japanese can't decide the Emperor. On the contrary, the Japanese Emperor has great influence. Although the Japanese often deny this political issue, Japan's political arena is still a political continuation from the Meiji Restoration before World War II. Think about the Shinzo Abe family.
Instead of ridiculing China’s autocracy, is it also ridiculing Japan’s autocracy. I don't think anyone has ridiculed President Bush. I mean two President Bush.
I want to give an example. I don't know if you can understand. In the last US election, although more than half of the people supported Hillary, Trump was still elected to the US president because the state voted more.
One person, becoming the president of a country, even if he is only supported by half of the people. Is this democracy? Is this half the tyranny of the other half? Should the United States be divided into two countries, is Hillary and Trump half?
In addition, I really like Trump's make America great gain, but I remember that if there were any mistakes, there were many parades in the United States, and irony, against Teplang's words. Is this the embodiment of democracy and freedom of speech?
It doesn't matter if brainwashed people believe they are not brainwashed. If Chinese people believe they are not being manipulated they are simply manipulated into believing the are not manipulated. Ironic isn't it.
It is simple the people/organizations that try to limit knowledge and freedom of speech always do that because they have an agenda. Having an agenda means they want to control what you know because if they succeed in controlling what you know then they also by extension control what you believe.
China claiming that foreign news outlets are lying are simply another step in controling what the chinese people believe, because if only chinese news are regarded as trustworthy they control what you believe which means they control you.
All governments wants to do this to everyone, manipulation is simply what everyone does. However if you censor the internet and censor news and information you don't like then we live in a totalitarian state, like China.
From wiki: "Mainland Chinese Internet censorship programs have censored Web sites that include (among other things):[citation needed]
Web sites belonging to "outlawed" or suppressed groups, such as pro-democracy activists and Falun Gong. News sources that often cover topics that are considered defamatory against China, such as police brutality, the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests, freedom of speech, and democracy.[64] These sites include Voice of America and the Chinese edition of BBC News. Sites related to the Taiwanese government, media, or other organizations, including sites dedicated to religious content, and most large Taiwanese community websites or blogs. Web sites that contain anything the Chinese authorities regard as obscenity or pornography. Web sites relating to criminal activity. Sites linked with the Dalai Lama, his teachings or the International Tibet Independence Movement. Most blogging sites experience frequent or permanent outages. Web sites deemed as subversive. Other topics censored include: 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests, Xinjiang re-education camps, Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China, and more."
Another Chinese are brainwashed and CCP is evil post, yet again.
So you boldly claim that Chinese are so brainwashed they don't even know they are brainwashed. How do you know you are in a safe place where all of your informations from western media (especially wiki, which most Chinese people won't read and edit) are all correct fact and neutral.
It is just hilarious to see the people live outside of China and never visited China consider themselves more knowlegable about China than people actually living there, by only watching a few video clip and reading some poorly-based reports.
I don’t particularly like the word brainwashed, as it infers negative connotations to the recipient, be it a lack of critical faculties or whatever.
I really don’t think it’s arguable that Westerners have more open access to information than Chinese people. It’s not hearsay or some misconception it just absolutely the case.
The two media spheres are not at all equivalent. In the West there is a veritable fuckton of bullshit out there, and people trying to convince people to lean in a certain direction, absolutely. But these entities are all in competition for the hearts and minds of people in our area of the world, and a discerning person can sift through and make up their own minds.
In China, there is one real arbiter on information that has particular goals, and people do not have (easy) access to information outside of those parameters.
I, as a Chinese, have stay in the states for almost 10 years. And I believe I have access to both voices from inside and outside of China. The problem is that the media power gap is so huge that western people simply won't listen to other voices, or even simply consider they are wrong. Because they think they already know everything.
Just as I have said, it is simply hilarious if you think you know China better than a Chinese. Even with the block, most Chinese people find their access to the information they need, a free proxy network is not that hard to find in China.
That’s really not the claim though, my claim was that China restricts information, not that I know more about China than a native.
Western companies have actively assisted in the development of these very mechanisms to restrict access to information,
I’m extremely skeptical that ‘just use a VPN’ actually works across a large population either in terms of ‘most can find the information they need’.
1. You have to actively know vaguely what forbidden information you’re actually looking for in the first place. 2. You have to use a VPN in the first place.
Now, from my experience in where I’m from, people are not particularly tech savvy at all, in the majority. The vast majority of people I’ve ever met over the age of 35/40 who don’t work in an IT field can basically use a smartphone and that’s about it.
China may be different and everyone knows what a VPN is and has one, I would be somewhat skeptical that that’s the case.
On October 10 2019 01:12 chuchuchu wrote: All people are support freedom of speech and democracy,but Japan has a Emperor，England has a Queen，US and France dont have .The same thing looks different.
I can not for the life of me guess whether this is a troll, of if he's actually brainwashed enough to think that a totalitarian regime is the same as Japan and England because they have a hyped up Emperor/Queen who are as such in name only, and doesn't actually have any real power.
On October 10 2019 01:31 jy_9876543210 wrote: Well... he's just posting whatever he had learned. The big machine doesn't care about TL forum, it's too small. He just feels that he needs to do something to help no matter how little, although the entire post sounds worse than a high school essay...
You severely underestimate the Chinese troll farm. They care about your mom's Facebook posts.
Similarly, the Chinese also think that you have been brainwashed by the West. You often talk about freedom of speech and democracy. But when the Chinese spoke themselves, you said that the Chinese were wrong and the Chinese shut up. You always talk about your own thoughts and negate other thoughts. The Chinese never say to the TV that the American values are wrong and the Western social thoughts are wrong. American things, Americans are the masters. I want to ask, can Europeans make their own decisions? Can the British be the masters themselves?
I talk about Japan and the United Kingdom. If you think that countries like Japan and the United States are the same, I hope that you can learn more about Japanese society. For example, people who committed suicide because of the emperor's abdication.
I talked about Japan and the United Kingdom because, like other countries, they are democratic and free, even with emperors and queens. Similarly, the Chinese believe that they are also democratic and free, even if it does not seem to be at all.
But the truth is this. The British can't vote for the Queen. The Japanese can't decide the Emperor. On the contrary, the Japanese Emperor has great influence. Although the Japanese often deny this political issue, Japan's political arena is still a political continuation from the Meiji Restoration before World War II. Think about the Shinzo Abe family.
Instead of ridiculing China’s autocracy, is it also ridiculing Japan’s autocracy. I don't think anyone has ridiculed President Bush. I mean two President Bush.
I want to give an example. I don't know if you can understand. In the last US election, although more than half of the people supported Hillary, Trump was still elected to the US president because the state voted more.
One person, becoming the president of a country, even if he is only supported by half of the people. Is this democracy? Is this half the tyranny of the other half? Should the United States be divided into two countries, is Hillary and Trump half?
In addition, I really like Trump's make America great gain, but I remember that if there were any mistakes, there were many parades in the United States, and irony, against Teplang's words. Is this the embodiment of democracy and freedom of speech?
It doesn't matter if brainwashed people believe they are not brainwashed. If Chinese people believe they are not being manipulated they are simply manipulated into believing the are not manipulated. Ironic isn't it.
It is simple the people/organizations that try to limit knowledge and freedom of speech always do that because they have an agenda. Having an agenda means they want to control what you know because if they succeed in controlling what you know then they also by extension control what you believe.
China claiming that foreign news outlets are lying are simply another step in controling what the chinese people believe, because if only chinese news are regarded as trustworthy they control what you believe which means they control you.
All governments wants to do this to everyone, manipulation is simply what everyone does. However if you censor the internet and censor news and information you don't like then we live in a totalitarian state, like China.
From wiki: "Mainland Chinese Internet censorship programs have censored Web sites that include (among other things):[citation needed]
Web sites belonging to "outlawed" or suppressed groups, such as pro-democracy activists and Falun Gong. News sources that often cover topics that are considered defamatory against China, such as police brutality, the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests, freedom of speech, and democracy.[64] These sites include Voice of America and the Chinese edition of BBC News. Sites related to the Taiwanese government, media, or other organizations, including sites dedicated to religious content, and most large Taiwanese community websites or blogs. Web sites that contain anything the Chinese authorities regard as obscenity or pornography. Web sites relating to criminal activity. Sites linked with the Dalai Lama, his teachings or the International Tibet Independence Movement. Most blogging sites experience frequent or permanent outages. Web sites deemed as subversive. Other topics censored include: 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests, Xinjiang re-education camps, Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China, and more."
Another Chinese are brainwashed and CCP is evil post, yet again.
So you boldly claim that Chinese are so brainwashed they don't even know they are brainwashed. How do you know you are in a safe place where all of your informations from western media (especially wiki, which most Chinese people won't read and edit) are all correct fact and neutral.
It is just hilarious to see the people live outside of China and never visited China consider themselves more knowlegable about China than people actually living there, by only watching a few video clip and reading some poorly-based reports.
I don’t particularly like the word brainwashed, as it infers negative connotations to the recipient, be it a lack of critical faculties or whatever.
I really don’t think it’s arguable that Westerners have more open access to information than Chinese people. It’s not hearsay or some misconception it just absolutely the case.
The two media spheres are not at all equivalent. In the West there is a veritable fuckton of bullshit out there, and people trying to convince people to lean in a certain direction, absolutely. But these entities are all in competition for the hearts and minds of people in our area of the world, and a discerning person can sift through and make up their own minds.
In China, there is one real arbiter on information that has particular goals, and people do not have (easy) access to information outside of those parameters.
I, as a Chinese, have stay in the states for almost 10 years. And I believe I have access to both voices from inside and outside of China. The problem is that the media power gap is so huge that western people simply won't listen to other voices, or even simply consider they are wrong. Because they think they already know everything.
Just as I have said, it is simply hilarious if you think you know China better than a Chinese. Even with the block, most Chinese people find their access to the information they need, a free proxy network is not that hard to find in China.
That’s really not the claim though, my claim was that China restricts information, not that I know more about China than a native.
Western companies have actively assisted in the development of these very mechanisms to restrict access to information,
I’m extremely skeptical that ‘just use a VPN’ actually works across a large population either in terms of ‘most can find the information they need’.
1. You have to actively know vaguely what forbidden information you’re actually looking for in the first place. 2. You have to use a VPN in the first place.
Now, from my experience in where I’m from, people are not particularly tech savvy at all, in the majority. The vast majority of people I’ve ever met over the age of 35/40 who don’t work in an IT field can basically use a smartphone and that’s about it.
China may be different and everyone knows what a VPN is and has one, I would be somewhat skeptical that that’s the case.
Well... I'm pretty sure many college boys finds a way to bypass the GFW, since that's the only way to find porn website... although it's illegal to do so. Both of them.
On October 10 2019 01:04 Spirit_HUN wrote: When this player signed up for that tournament, he accepted the rules. He simply broke the rules, ended up banning himself.
Blizzard did the right thing. This is a video game company, not a political platform. If you are concerned about human rights in Hong Kong the are other ways, platforms to do that.
You should not force a video game company to be political. There are no political comments in the Olympics, Football, Formula1 etc. as well.
I dont want video games, sports events to be filled with politics. Viewers are there to be entertained, competitors are there to compete, and not to be forced to eat political bs 0-24.
They’re not a political platform, but they do have a clear political position here which is tow whatever line the Chinese authorities want them to tow.
Seems to me it was a pretty good platform for the guy to use really, although the attention it gained was more from Blizzard’s reaction than his actions specifically. Gained a fuckload of traction even US Senators are wading in, doubt he’d have been able to elicit such a response with a tweet.
China and especially the Gulf States use sport as an extension of their soft power, they’ve made it political already, likewise the Cold War saw sporting events like the Olympics as an ideological battleground.
if it is not an political extension of soft power,why some officials of the organization are talking about politics？if not,STOP talking.As an official, you can't blatantly confront the Chinese public opinion while thinking that discrimination against Chinese people, Chinese culture and support separatism and violence.
Why not?
National self-determination is a key principle of geopolitics in the modern era.
Considering a bomb blew in the windows of my house when I was but a babe, I’m quite happy that the United States interceded and helped facilitate a peace here that respected both of the national identities in our wee country.
I would personally like to see more of China and its culture emerge onto the world stage, an old and venerable culture indeed, whose people have accomplished remarkable things in the last few decades especially.
If it’s by trampling on everyone and expecting Westerners to bend to their whims and where criticism is construed as a grievous insult then, no thanks.
When you think so, have you ever asked about the thoughts of ordinary Chinese?.
I hope you understand that while this is an interesting conversation, your views are inherently skewed by the propaganda you've been fed every day. We know how the Chinese media works (and it's not just China btw. America has much of the same problems, and most of us here do recognise it as such). You have already made made several false statements and made comparisons that does not make sense (Comparing China to England because England has a mock Queen for instance). As such everything you say will be taken with the biggest grain of salt imaginable
I do think it's interesting what the ordinary Chinese thinks, but it truthfully doesn't matter. You don't get to commit human rights violations and consider it ok because "The ordinary Chinese thinks so". Guess who doesn't think it's ok? Hong Kong and its citizens.
Very interesting, wrong comparison I just want to show that some forms of democracy and freedom will change, just as discrimination against blacks is definitely not one of freedom of speech in the United States. Although Martin Luther King was killed. Similarly, China's democracy and freedom are not so much the same as the United States, because the so-called autocracy and dictator seem to be like the Queen of England and the Emperor of Japan.
And when you talk about it, we should think about Hong Kong and its citizens. I am very eager to ask, do you know how many Hong Kong people participated in this Chinese National Day celebration? Including young people, college students, government officials, police, famous stars, and ordinary people. Do you think we should think about Hong Kong people, then do you know how many people in Hong Kong support the police parade? The police in Hong Kong, the government in Hong Kong, Hong Kong, so many condemns the violent protesters, and the ordinary people, shouting at the bbc reporters, this is Hong Kong, China, the taxi driver who supports the law revision, isn't it Hong Kong?
What you see seems to be the collective public opinion of Hong Kong, actually because those people have amplified this reaction through radical methods.
Think about it, if it is really a problem of the society and the Chinese government, the Hong Kong government, the ordinary people of Hong Kong (Is it not ordinary people and the grassroots officials?) Are these attitudes still not showing anything? Think about how good the credibility of the Hong Kong government is, and the same group of people are not trusted now.
The vast majority of protesters on the streets of Hong Kong are college students, young people, and young unemployed people. Is this a normal antibody or a collective carnival of young people, like an American youth who likes to take drugs?
China has experienced two very painful students, and the young people have dominated the political violent protests, almost smashing the entire country. However, these protests did not make more than a billion people ignorant, and the ordinary Chinese who were at a loss knew how to live well.
The Chinese have supported all the legal acts of Hong Kong and have wanted to split China and Hong Kong for many years. There is nothing too fierce.
We support Hong Kong, support democracy, support freedom, and even to some extent, support universal suffrage in Hong Kong.
However, what you have to understand is what is the slogan of Hong Kong's independence and violence? This is what the Hong Kong player and the NBA rocket manager said.
This is also why the Chinese currently call it a terrorist, because terrorists in the Middle East often call themselves freedom fighters.
If Hong Kong, China, is not dominated by the majority of Chinese people and by the majority of Hong Kong people, then who will decide?
Can Texas and California declare independence today and expel all blacks and people from other states？
So，why China give up HK？and Violent protestors demanding the expulsion of mainlanders？
In mainland China, Hong Kong people's bad reputation, sense of geographical superiority and discrimination against mainlanders are the main reasons。
(you can find it in many Hong Kong movies，In mainland China, Hong Kong people's bad reputation, sense of geographical superiority and discrimination against mainlanders are the main reasons (you can find out from many Hong Kong movies, including asking mainlanders if they have seen Apple phones made in China, and mocking the mainland for lack of high-rise power and modern technology, the same thing is still happening to Chinese people in Europe, the United States, etc.)It used to be Korea and Japan.).
You bring up valid points, but what you seem to miss out on is how this all started in the first place. There is currently a Sino-British joint declaration agreement between China and the UK dated back in 1984 and went into effect in 1997 stating that HK will have its own government, is able to pass its own laws, and that their way of life would not change for 50 years. You can read a bit on that agreement here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-British_Joint_Declaration. This means that in this agreement, China agreed that its PRC principles would not be practiced in HK until 2047.
Despite this agreement, in 2014, China proposed a reform to HK's electoral system, a clear infringement of the agreement. Since China agreed that HK could remain autonomous and have authority over their own government, then why is China screening candidates for HK's Chief Executive? This started around 2014 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests), and afterwards the British Foreign Office announced that Chinese officials now treat this declaration as void. You say China support HK's democracy, then why not let the HK'ers elect who they want, instead of screening who they want the HK people to elect? The HK'ers are upset because they were promised 50 years, but China is trying to impose only 22 years into the treaty. Does this mean China's words aren't even worth 50% of what they put on papers?
So flash forward to the current protest, how did it start? Well, China wanted to pass an extradite bill in HK, another infringement of the current agreement. HK'ers did not want this law, which they are within their own rights to deny since China agreed it will not impose, yet China still adamantly demand that this law be passed. If you look over at the 5 demands HK is currently protesting for, they are extremely reasonable given that China started this by breaking their words.
1. Full withdrawal of the extradition bill - Very valid demand, considering China signed an agreement that they will not be imposing their laws in HK until 2047. Last I checked, it's only 2019.
2. Inquiry into police brutality - Also valid, the people would like to investigate police's conduct. The police are meant to protect the people, not beat them up when they are protesting.
3. Retracting the classification of protesters as rioters - This started because China broke its words, so the people were upset and protested. Had China not broke its words, this wouldn't have happened. The people marched because China lied, not because they randomly rioted out of no where. This point can be a case by case basis with some standards since I understand not all protesters are good, some can be destructive, and we should judge them fairly.
4. Amnesty for arrested protesters - Same as point 3.
5. Dual universal suffrage, for both their Legislative and Chief Executive - Again, China signed an agreement that allows the HK'ers to manage their own government. If they are true to their words, let the HK'ers decide how they want their government to be ran.
My main point is that HK originally didn't protest for independence. This was NOT how the protest started. They started because China lied and backed out of their own words only 22 years into a 50 years signed agreement. It is only escalating because instead of admitting they were in the wrong, China cracked down on the HK citizens. HK citizens now are entertaining independence because they realized Mainland China does not keep its word. To use a Starcraft analogy, this is similar to Mengsk, Reynor, and Kerrigan working together, yet Mengsk abandoned Kerrigan on that one planet (forgot the name). When Reynor became rightfully pissed for what Mengsk did and turned on him, Mengsk called Reynor a terrorist. China is pulling a Mengsk right now.
If China is true to its words. Come back in 28 years and let the HK'ers do what they want to do with their government for now.
On October 10 2019 02:58 Zaros wrote: I will stop supporting Hearthstone or watching any Hearthstone content, I barely play starcraft but I do watch all the tournaments and will continue to do so for now but I will see if Blizzard has any change in policy.
I think a lot of the Chinese media/government have obviously tried to paint the protesters as terrorists and criminals but they have also tried to make it as if Hong Kong wants to be an independent country (which some do want but that is a minority) rather than having the freedoms they were guaranteed while being a part of China.
China signed an international treaty with the UK that guaranteed the rights of Hong Kong'ers for 50 years, it is blatantly breaking that treaty, there should be a bigger UK and international response.
Do you support Northern Ireland independence, Scotland independence?
Yes and yes, if the majority people in said areas actually desire it.
As of yet, neither are the case. Although in Northern Ireland’s case it would be unifying with Ireland in some capacity that is generally proposed, not being independent as a separate nation.
As a British person by descent and culture I’d be fine with a united Irish state provided there were adequate safeguards in place regarding culture etc and dual citizenship options for Brits.
Yes, we have reached a consensus that even in China it is illegal (as in the case of German Nazis is extremely serious, but not so serious elsewhere), then most people in Hong Kong support these protesters? Or do you turn a blind eye to the large-scale activities that most people work normally and support the police? The Chinese side has never been. I have never seen a protest against Hong Kong. The parade has always been a violent and independent act against a small number of people who have witnessed violent demonstrations in Hong Kong. In fact, it is easy to see that almost all protesters are masked young people. How much can these be? Or will you support K.K.K. to lead the United States?
On October 10 2019 01:12 chuchuchu wrote: All people are support freedom of speech and democracy,but Japan has a Emperor，England has a Queen，US and France dont have .The same thing looks different.
I can not for the life of me guess whether this is a troll, of if he's actually brainwashed enough to think that a totalitarian regime is the same as Japan and England because they have a hyped up Emperor/Queen who are as such in name only, and doesn't actually have any real power.
On October 10 2019 01:31 jy_9876543210 wrote: Well... he's just posting whatever he had learned. The big machine doesn't care about TL forum, it's too small. He just feels that he needs to do something to help no matter how little, although the entire post sounds worse than a high school essay...
You severely underestimate the Chinese troll farm. They care about your mom's Facebook posts.
Similarly, the Chinese also think that you have been brainwashed by the West. You often talk about freedom of speech and democracy. But when the Chinese spoke themselves, you said that the Chinese were wrong and the Chinese shut up. You always talk about your own thoughts and negate other thoughts. The Chinese never say to the TV that the American values are wrong and the Western social thoughts are wrong. American things, Americans are the masters. I want to ask, can Europeans make their own decisions? Can the British be the masters themselves?
I talk about Japan and the United Kingdom. If you think that countries like Japan and the United States are the same, I hope that you can learn more about Japanese society. For example, people who committed suicide because of the emperor's abdication.
I talked about Japan and the United Kingdom because, like other countries, they are democratic and free, even with emperors and queens. Similarly, the Chinese believe that they are also democratic and free, even if it does not seem to be at all.
But the truth is this. The British can't vote for the Queen. The Japanese can't decide the Emperor. On the contrary, the Japanese Emperor has great influence. Although the Japanese often deny this political issue, Japan's political arena is still a political continuation from the Meiji Restoration before World War II. Think about the Shinzo Abe family.
Instead of ridiculing China’s autocracy, is it also ridiculing Japan’s autocracy. I don't think anyone has ridiculed President Bush. I mean two President Bush.
I want to give an example. I don't know if you can understand. In the last US election, although more than half of the people supported Hillary, Trump was still elected to the US president because the state voted more.
One person, becoming the president of a country, even if he is only supported by half of the people. Is this democracy? Is this half the tyranny of the other half? Should the United States be divided into two countries, is Hillary and Trump half?
In addition, I really like Trump's make America great gain, but I remember that if there were any mistakes, there were many parades in the United States, and irony, against Teplang's words. Is this the embodiment of democracy and freedom of speech?
It doesn't matter if brainwashed people believe they are not brainwashed. If Chinese people believe they are not being manipulated they are simply manipulated into believing the are not manipulated. Ironic isn't it.
It is simple the people/organizations that try to limit knowledge and freedom of speech always do that because they have an agenda. Having an agenda means they want to control what you know because if they succeed in controlling what you know then they also by extension control what you believe.
China claiming that foreign news outlets are lying are simply another step in controling what the chinese people believe, because if only chinese news are regarded as trustworthy they control what you believe which means they control you.
All governments wants to do this to everyone, manipulation is simply what everyone does. However if you censor the internet and censor news and information you don't like then we live in a totalitarian state, like China.
From wiki: "Mainland Chinese Internet censorship programs have censored Web sites that include (among other things):[citation needed]
Web sites belonging to "outlawed" or suppressed groups, such as pro-democracy activists and Falun Gong. News sources that often cover topics that are considered defamatory against China, such as police brutality, the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests, freedom of speech, and democracy.[64] These sites include Voice of America and the Chinese edition of BBC News. Sites related to the Taiwanese government, media, or other organizations, including sites dedicated to religious content, and most large Taiwanese community websites or blogs. Web sites that contain anything the Chinese authorities regard as obscenity or pornography. Web sites relating to criminal activity. Sites linked with the Dalai Lama, his teachings or the International Tibet Independence Movement. Most blogging sites experience frequent or permanent outages. Web sites deemed as subversive. Other topics censored include: 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests, Xinjiang re-education camps, Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China, and more."
Another Chinese are brainwashed and CCP is evil post, yet again.
So you boldly claim that Chinese are so brainwashed they don't even know they are brainwashed. How do you know you are in a safe place where all of your informations from western media (especially wiki, which most Chinese people won't read and edit) are all correct fact and neutral.
It is just hilarious to see the people live outside of China and never visited China consider themselves more knowlegable about China than people actually living there, by only watching a few video clip and reading some poorly-based reports.
I don’t particularly like the word brainwashed, as it infers negative connotations to the recipient, be it a lack of critical faculties or whatever.
I really don’t think it’s arguable that Westerners have more open access to information than Chinese people. It’s not hearsay or some misconception it just absolutely the case.
The two media spheres are not at all equivalent. In the West there is a veritable fuckton of bullshit out there, and people trying to convince people to lean in a certain direction, absolutely. But these entities are all in competition for the hearts and minds of people in our area of the world, and a discerning person can sift through and make up their own minds.
In China, there is one real arbiter on information that has particular goals, and people do not have (easy) access to information outside of those parameters.
I, as a Chinese, have stay in the states for almost 10 years. And I believe I have access to both voices from inside and outside of China. The problem is that the media power gap is so huge that western people simply won't listen to other voices, or even simply consider they are wrong. Because they think they already know everything.
Just as I have said, it is simply hilarious if you think you know China better than a Chinese. Even with the block, most Chinese people find their access to the information they need, a free proxy network is not that hard to find in China.
That’s really not the claim though, my claim was that China restricts information, not that I know more about China than a native.
Western companies have actively assisted in the development of these very mechanisms to restrict access to information,
I’m extremely skeptical that ‘just use a VPN’ actually works across a large population either in terms of ‘most can find the information they need’.
1. You have to actively know vaguely what forbidden information you’re actually looking for in the first place. 2. You have to use a VPN in the first place.
Now, from my experience in where I’m from, people are not particularly tech savvy at all, in the majority. The vast majority of people I’ve ever met over the age of 35/40 who don’t work in an IT field can basically use a smartphone and that’s about it.
China may be different and everyone knows what a VPN is and has one, I would be somewhat skeptical that that’s the case.
Well... I'm pretty sure many college boys finds a way to bypass the GFW, since that's the only way to find porn website.
How many is that?
There are absolutely ways around such things, but they require at least a degree of tech savvy, and a desire to do so.
And if one is bypassing filters to watch some high quality fucking it doesn’t necessarily follow that they’re going to be motivated to seek out alternative sources of news.
On October 10 2019 02:58 Zaros wrote: I will stop supporting Hearthstone or watching any Hearthstone content, I barely play starcraft but I do watch all the tournaments and will continue to do so for now but I will see if Blizzard has any change in policy.
I think a lot of the Chinese media/government have obviously tried to paint the protesters as terrorists and criminals but they have also tried to make it as if Hong Kong wants to be an independent country (which some do want but that is a minority) rather than having the freedoms they were guaranteed while being a part of China.
China signed an international treaty with the UK that guaranteed the rights of Hong Kong'ers for 50 years, it is blatantly breaking that treaty, there should be a bigger UK and international response.
Do you support Northern Ireland independence, Scotland independence?
Yes and yes, if the majority people in said areas actually desire it.
As of yet, neither are the case. Although in Northern Ireland’s case it would be unifying with Ireland in some capacity that is generally proposed, not being independent as a separate nation.
As a British person by descent and culture I’d be fine with a united Irish state provided there were adequate safeguards in place regarding culture etc and dual citizenship options for Brits.
Yes, we have reached a consensus that even in China it is illegal (as in the case of German Nazis is extremely serious, but not so serious elsewhere), then most people in Hong Kong support these protesters? Or do you turn a blind eye to the large-scale activities that most people work normally and support the police? The Chinese side has never been. I have never seen a protest against Hong Kong. The parade has always been a violent and independent act against a small number of people who have witnessed violent demonstrations in Hong Kong. In fact, it is easy to see that almost all protesters are masked young people. How much can these be? Or will you support K.K.K. to lead the United States?
This is the nature of all protests, they’re almost always by their nature lead by a minority, because of the risks involved and because many people want to just get on with their daily lives.
They were not violent to begin with, if they completely lacked the capacity for wider support the police would not have cracked down on them with the force that they have.
The KKK is a bad example, Martin Luther King and the Civil Rights movement did not have the kind of popular support that people assume they did now looking back, but history has validated that movement as being just.
Chapter 5 of the Olympic charter states “no kind of demonstration or political, religious or racial propaganda is permitted in any Olympic sites, venues or other areas.” The ostensible purpose of that rule is to allow for the huge global sporting event to bring people together, without fear of discrimination or of political upset. The Olympics is meant to be a blank slate where all the participant countries are united as one. E-sports should be the same.
On October 10 2019 02:58 Zaros wrote: I will stop supporting Hearthstone or watching any Hearthstone content, I barely play starcraft but I do watch all the tournaments and will continue to do so for now but I will see if Blizzard has any change in policy.
I think a lot of the Chinese media/government have obviously tried to paint the protesters as terrorists and criminals but they have also tried to make it as if Hong Kong wants to be an independent country (which some do want but that is a minority) rather than having the freedoms they were guaranteed while being a part of China.
China signed an international treaty with the UK that guaranteed the rights of Hong Kong'ers for 50 years, it is blatantly breaking that treaty, there should be a bigger UK and international response.
Do you support Northern Ireland independence, Scotland independence?
Yes and yes, if the majority people in said areas actually desire it.
As of yet, neither are the case. Although in Northern Ireland’s case it would be unifying with Ireland in some capacity that is generally proposed, not being independent as a separate nation.
As a British person by descent and culture I’d be fine with a united Irish state provided there were adequate safeguards in place regarding culture etc and dual citizenship options for Brits.
Yes, we have reached a consensus that even in China it is illegal (as in the case of German Nazis is extremely serious, but not so serious elsewhere), then most people in Hong Kong support these protesters? Or do you turn a blind eye to the large-scale activities that most people work normally and support the police? The Chinese side has never been. I have never seen a protest against Hong Kong. The parade has always been a violent and independent act against a small number of people who have witnessed violent demonstrations in Hong Kong. In fact, it is easy to see that almost all protesters are masked young people. How much can these be? Or will you support K.K.K. to lead the United States?
A: Why would the Chinese people protest against Hong Kong when you are the ones imposing on Hong Kong? The bully doesn't run to the teacher to tell them about the victim.
B: The parade wasn't always violent, that's a blatant lie. Please stop doing that. it only turned as such recently.
C: Again, I must stress, no one cares what the police or China is saying, because their actions are carrying their weight. Whoever these "normal people who work normally and support the police" are, they are supporting oppression and violence.
D: I'm noticing that you are dodging all questions related to 1989 Tiananmen square. Is that you being dishonest in your discussion, or is it simply crashing against your worldview to the point where you refuse to to entertain its existence?
On October 10 2019 04:07 foveon wrote: Chapter 5 of the Olympic charter states “no kind of demonstration or political, religious or racial propaganda is permitted in any Olympic sites, venues or other areas.” The ostensible purpose of that rule is to allow for the huge global sporting event to bring people together, without fear of discrimination or of political upset. The Olympics is meant to be a blank slate where all the participant countries are united as one. E-sports should be the same.
Someone needs to look up the "1968 Olympics Black Power salute", and how it's now a historic event.
On October 10 2019 02:58 Zaros wrote: I will stop supporting Hearthstone or watching any Hearthstone content, I barely play starcraft but I do watch all the tournaments and will continue to do so for now but I will see if Blizzard has any change in policy.
I think a lot of the Chinese media/government have obviously tried to paint the protesters as terrorists and criminals but they have also tried to make it as if Hong Kong wants to be an independent country (which some do want but that is a minority) rather than having the freedoms they were guaranteed while being a part of China.
China signed an international treaty with the UK that guaranteed the rights of Hong Kong'ers for 50 years, it is blatantly breaking that treaty, there should be a bigger UK and international response.
Do you support Northern Ireland independence, Scotland independence?
Yes and yes, if the majority people in said areas actually desire it.
As of yet, neither are the case. Although in Northern Ireland’s case it would be unifying with Ireland in some capacity that is generally proposed, not being independent as a separate nation.
As a British person by descent and culture I’d be fine with a united Irish state provided there were adequate safeguards in place regarding culture etc and dual citizenship options for Brits.
Yes, we have reached a consensus that even in China it is illegal (as in the case of German Nazis is extremely serious, but not so serious elsewhere), then most people in Hong Kong support these protesters? Or do you turn a blind eye to the large-scale activities that most people work normally and support the police? The Chinese side has never been. I have never seen a protest against Hong Kong. The parade has always been a violent and independent act against a small number of people who have witnessed violent demonstrations in Hong Kong. In fact, it is easy to see that almost all protesters are masked young people. How much can these be? Or will you support K.K.K. to lead the United States?
First of all, do you even know when did the parade begin, where did it occur, how many are there, and for what reason? Surely you know that nobody wore masks in the beginning, right? Or did you just search about it today and can only find recent news reports? Based on your poor english I wonder if you know what key words you should search.
On October 10 2019 02:58 Zaros wrote: I will stop supporting Hearthstone or watching any Hearthstone content, I barely play starcraft but I do watch all the tournaments and will continue to do so for now but I will see if Blizzard has any change in policy.
I think a lot of the Chinese media/government have obviously tried to paint the protesters as terrorists and criminals but they have also tried to make it as if Hong Kong wants to be an independent country (which some do want but that is a minority) rather than having the freedoms they were guaranteed while being a part of China.
China signed an international treaty with the UK that guaranteed the rights of Hong Kong'ers for 50 years, it is blatantly breaking that treaty, there should be a bigger UK and international response.
Do you support Northern Ireland independence, Scotland independence?
Yes and yes, if the majority people in said areas actually desire it.
As of yet, neither are the case. Although in Northern Ireland’s case it would be unifying with Ireland in some capacity that is generally proposed, not being independent as a separate nation.
As a British person by descent and culture I’d be fine with a united Irish state provided there were adequate safeguards in place regarding culture etc and dual citizenship options for Brits.
Yes, we have reached a consensus that even in China it is illegal (as in the case of German Nazis is extremely serious, but not so serious elsewhere), then most people in Hong Kong support these protesters? Or do you turn a blind eye to the large-scale activities that most people work normally and support the police? The Chinese side has never been. I have never seen a protest against Hong Kong. The parade has always been a violent and independent act against a small number of people who have witnessed violent demonstrations in Hong Kong. In fact, it is easy to see that almost all protesters are masked young people. How much can these be? Or will you support K.K.K. to lead the United States?
C: Again, I must stress, no one cares what the police or China is saying, because their actions are carrying their weight. Whoever these "normal people who work normally and support the police" are, they are supporting oppression and violence.
I think the problem is that they don't think it's a lie. Chinese media has been demonizing the protesters since the beginning, so the person you're arguing with might legitimately believe what they are saying is fact.
I ask again to the pro-Chinese in this thread: What happened in Tienanmen Square in 1989? Do you support what happened?
You've got to love all the irony of all these Americans and Europeans throwing around accusations that the Chinese government has committed atrocities. You know what they say about people in glass houses.
we would like to express our ‘strong anger and condemnation’ at what happened at the Hearthstone Asia Tournament last weekend. We also strongly object to the spreading of personal political beliefs during any contests. The contestant involved (Blitzchung) will be banned from participating in any contests, and the broadcasters involved will also be immediately stopped from working (under Blizzard). Meanwhile, we will, as always, be determined to defend the pride of the country (China).
On October 10 2019 04:19 whitehat511 wrote: You've got to love all the irony of all these Americans and Europeans throwing around accusations that the Chinese government has committed atrocities. You know what they say about people in glass houses.
You do know that we can condemn our government's atrocities and the Chinese government's atrocities too, right? Those aren't mutually exclusive positions.
On October 10 2019 03:57 phodacbiet wrote: There is currently a Sino-British joint declaration agreement between China and the UK dated back in 1984 and went into effect in 1997 stating that HK will have its own government, is able to pass its own laws, and that their way of life would not change for 50 years. You can read a bit on that agreement here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-British_Joint_Declaration. This means that in this agreement, China agreed that its PRC principles would not be practiced in HK until 2047.
Despite this agreement, in 2014, China proposed a reform to HK's electoral system... .... They started because China lied and backed out of their own words only 22 years into a 50 years signed agreement... ....
I went to school with several guys from Hong Kong whose families decided that 1997 agreement was BS. Their families GTFO-ed to Canada as fast as they could.
On October 10 2019 01:04 Spirit_HUN wrote: When this player signed up for that tournament, he accepted the rules. He simply broke the rules, ended up banning himself.
Blizzard did the right thing. This is a video game company, not a political platform. If you are concerned about human rights in Hong Kong the are other ways, platforms to do that.
You should not force a video game company to be political. There are no political comments in the Olympics, Football, Formula1 etc. as well.
I dont want video games, sports events to be filled with politics. Viewers are there to be entertained, competitors are there to compete, and not to be forced to eat political bs 0-24.
They’re not a political platform, but they do have a clear political position here which is tow whatever line the Chinese authorities want them to tow.
Seems to me it was a pretty good platform for the guy to use really, although the attention it gained was more from Blizzard’s reaction than his actions specifically. Gained a fuckload of traction even US Senators are wading in, doubt he’d have been able to elicit such a response with a tweet.
China and especially the Gulf States use sport as an extension of their soft power, they’ve made it political already, likewise the Cold War saw sporting events like the Olympics as an ideological battleground.
if it is not an political extension of soft power,why some officials of the organization are talking about politics？if not,STOP talking.As an official, you can't blatantly confront the Chinese public opinion while thinking that discrimination against Chinese people, Chinese culture and support separatism and violence.
Why not?
National self-determination is a key principle of geopolitics in the modern era.
Considering a bomb blew in the windows of my house when I was but a babe, I’m quite happy that the United States interceded and helped facilitate a peace here that respected both of the national identities in our wee country.
I would personally like to see more of China and its culture emerge onto the world stage, an old and venerable culture indeed, whose people have accomplished remarkable things in the last few decades especially.
If it’s by trampling on everyone and expecting Westerners to bend to their whims and where criticism is construed as a grievous insult then, no thanks.
When you think so, have you ever asked about the thoughts of ordinary Chinese? It's like I'm here to express the thoughts of an ordinary Chinese. Indeed, I feel sad that I didn't learn English well, because what I lost is not a good paper, but an opportunity to communicate with others.
Not only Americans can define the world. The pioneers of socialism and communism are Germans and French. Formerly President Roosevelt of the United States was also criticized for socialism or communism. But think about Chinese history, the current development of China, and the past workers of Britain.
Some ideological conflicts are unavoidable, especially under the propaganda of some western media, they usually distort the report in order to satisfy their own interests.
China does not do very well in many places, but it does not want to do so. No Chinese wants his country to be like India with the same population. (I do not mean to discriminate. Most Chinese want to live a good life first and guarantee everyone the same rights, wealth, rights and status.)
In China, it is still possible to elect people who have been upgraded from the grassroots level through examinations and votes, while officials at the grassroots level are also elected.
In China, former leaders were even born to poor peasants rather than a billion-dollar owner or equally wealthy political family. Both father and son are presidents.
Western media believe that China is undemocratic and not free, and the Chinese believe that they are free and democratic. This seems to be a disgusting tactic.
I was disappointed with many of the statements, especially those of the distorted Sixth Fourth Movement (my father was one of the participants, but later they built China into the second largest country in the world), and those who believed that the Hong Kong police should not react to any of the protestors'actions.
When commenting, consider that China has 1.4 billion people. This country can not change because of the ideas of more than a dozen people, thousands of people and tens of thousands of people.
The most important thing is to ensure that more than a billion people, like other Westerners, can live with wealth and dignity on this planet.
I wonder what this guy thinks about the hundreds of students that were murdered at Tienanmen Square in 1989.
And I wonder what you think about the Trail of Tears?
On October 10 2019 01:04 Spirit_HUN wrote: When this player signed up for that tournament, he accepted the rules. He simply broke the rules, ended up banning himself.
Blizzard did the right thing. This is a video game company, not a political platform. If you are concerned about human rights in Hong Kong the are other ways, platforms to do that.
You should not force a video game company to be political. There are no political comments in the Olympics, Football, Formula1 etc. as well.
I dont want video games, sports events to be filled with politics. Viewers are there to be entertained, competitors are there to compete, and not to be forced to eat political bs 0-24.
They’re not a political platform, but they do have a clear political position here which is tow whatever line the Chinese authorities want them to tow.
Seems to me it was a pretty good platform for the guy to use really, although the attention it gained was more from Blizzard’s reaction than his actions specifically. Gained a fuckload of traction even US Senators are wading in, doubt he’d have been able to elicit such a response with a tweet.
China and especially the Gulf States use sport as an extension of their soft power, they’ve made it political already, likewise the Cold War saw sporting events like the Olympics as an ideological battleground.
if it is not an political extension of soft power,why some officials of the organization are talking about politics？if not,STOP talking.As an official, you can't blatantly confront the Chinese public opinion while thinking that discrimination against Chinese people, Chinese culture and support separatism and violence.
Why not?
National self-determination is a key principle of geopolitics in the modern era.
Considering a bomb blew in the windows of my house when I was but a babe, I’m quite happy that the United States interceded and helped facilitate a peace here that respected both of the national identities in our wee country.
I would personally like to see more of China and its culture emerge onto the world stage, an old and venerable culture indeed, whose people have accomplished remarkable things in the last few decades especially.
If it’s by trampling on everyone and expecting Westerners to bend to their whims and where criticism is construed as a grievous insult then, no thanks.
When you think so, have you ever asked about the thoughts of ordinary Chinese? It's like I'm here to express the thoughts of an ordinary Chinese. Indeed, I feel sad that I didn't learn English well, because what I lost is not a good paper, but an opportunity to communicate with others.
Not only Americans can define the world. The pioneers of socialism and communism are Germans and French. Formerly President Roosevelt of the United States was also criticized for socialism or communism. But think about Chinese history, the current development of China, and the past workers of Britain.
Some ideological conflicts are unavoidable, especially under the propaganda of some western media, they usually distort the report in order to satisfy their own interests.
China does not do very well in many places, but it does not want to do so. No Chinese wants his country to be like India with the same population. (I do not mean to discriminate. Most Chinese want to live a good life first and guarantee everyone the same rights, wealth, rights and status.)
In China, it is still possible to elect people who have been upgraded from the grassroots level through examinations and votes, while officials at the grassroots level are also elected.
In China, former leaders were even born to poor peasants rather than a billion-dollar owner or equally wealthy political family. Both father and son are presidents.
Western media believe that China is undemocratic and not free, and the Chinese believe that they are free and democratic. This seems to be a disgusting tactic.
I was disappointed with many of the statements, especially those of the distorted Sixth Fourth Movement (my father was one of the participants, but later they built China into the second largest country in the world), and those who believed that the Hong Kong police should not react to any of the protestors'actions.
When commenting, consider that China has 1.4 billion people. This country can not change because of the ideas of more than a dozen people, thousands of people and tens of thousands of people.
The most important thing is to ensure that more than a billion people, like other Westerners, can live with wealth and dignity on this planet.
I wonder what this guy thinks about the hundreds of students that were murdered at Tienanmen Square in 1989.
And I wonder what you think about the Trail of Tears?
The Trail of Tears is universally taught as an abhorrent action by the United States government here in the US. It is not celebrated. Its brutal events are condemned by the people and by society. So now tell us what you think about Tienanmen Square in 1989.
On October 10 2019 01:04 Spirit_HUN wrote: When this player signed up for that tournament, he accepted the rules. He simply broke the rules, ended up banning himself.
Blizzard did the right thing. This is a video game company, not a political platform. If you are concerned about human rights in Hong Kong the are other ways, platforms to do that.
You should not force a video game company to be political. There are no political comments in the Olympics, Football, Formula1 etc. as well.
I dont want video games, sports events to be filled with politics. Viewers are there to be entertained, competitors are there to compete, and not to be forced to eat political bs 0-24.
They’re not a political platform, but they do have a clear political position here which is tow whatever line the Chinese authorities want them to tow.
Seems to me it was a pretty good platform for the guy to use really, although the attention it gained was more from Blizzard’s reaction than his actions specifically. Gained a fuckload of traction even US Senators are wading in, doubt he’d have been able to elicit such a response with a tweet.
China and especially the Gulf States use sport as an extension of their soft power, they’ve made it political already, likewise the Cold War saw sporting events like the Olympics as an ideological battleground.
if it is not an political extension of soft power,why some officials of the organization are talking about politics？if not,STOP talking.As an official, you can't blatantly confront the Chinese public opinion while thinking that discrimination against Chinese people, Chinese culture and support separatism and violence.
Why not?
National self-determination is a key principle of geopolitics in the modern era.
Considering a bomb blew in the windows of my house when I was but a babe, I’m quite happy that the United States interceded and helped facilitate a peace here that respected both of the national identities in our wee country.
I would personally like to see more of China and its culture emerge onto the world stage, an old and venerable culture indeed, whose people have accomplished remarkable things in the last few decades especially.
If it’s by trampling on everyone and expecting Westerners to bend to their whims and where criticism is construed as a grievous insult then, no thanks.
When you think so, have you ever asked about the thoughts of ordinary Chinese? It's like I'm here to express the thoughts of an ordinary Chinese. Indeed, I feel sad that I didn't learn English well, because what I lost is not a good paper, but an opportunity to communicate with others.
Not only Americans can define the world. The pioneers of socialism and communism are Germans and French. Formerly President Roosevelt of the United States was also criticized for socialism or communism. But think about Chinese history, the current development of China, and the past workers of Britain.
Some ideological conflicts are unavoidable, especially under the propaganda of some western media, they usually distort the report in order to satisfy their own interests.
China does not do very well in many places, but it does not want to do so. No Chinese wants his country to be like India with the same population. (I do not mean to discriminate. Most Chinese want to live a good life first and guarantee everyone the same rights, wealth, rights and status.)
In China, it is still possible to elect people who have been upgraded from the grassroots level through examinations and votes, while officials at the grassroots level are also elected.
In China, former leaders were even born to poor peasants rather than a billion-dollar owner or equally wealthy political family. Both father and son are presidents.
Western media believe that China is undemocratic and not free, and the Chinese believe that they are free and democratic. This seems to be a disgusting tactic.
I was disappointed with many of the statements, especially those of the distorted Sixth Fourth Movement (my father was one of the participants, but later they built China into the second largest country in the world), and those who believed that the Hong Kong police should not react to any of the protestors'actions.
When commenting, consider that China has 1.4 billion people. This country can not change because of the ideas of more than a dozen people, thousands of people and tens of thousands of people.
The most important thing is to ensure that more than a billion people, like other Westerners, can live with wealth and dignity on this planet.
I wonder what this guy thinks about the hundreds of students that were murdered at Tienanmen Square in 1989.
And I wonder what you think about the Trail of Tears?
Can't speak for everyone, but I think it was horrible and the government was extremely shitty for that. But that's the thing though, we learned about these atrocities, the pox blankets, the genocide our people committed on the natives, the internment camp we put the Japanese in during WW2 and many more of our US's shitty past in school. It's taught as wrong. China can't even seem to agree whether or not Tiananmen Square footages were real or if it was from an unreleased movie.
On October 10 2019 01:04 Spirit_HUN wrote: When this player signed up for that tournament, he accepted the rules. He simply broke the rules, ended up banning himself.
Blizzard did the right thing. This is a video game company, not a political platform. If you are concerned about human rights in Hong Kong the are other ways, platforms to do that.
You should not force a video game company to be political. There are no political comments in the Olympics, Football, Formula1 etc. as well.
I dont want video games, sports events to be filled with politics. Viewers are there to be entertained, competitors are there to compete, and not to be forced to eat political bs 0-24.
They’re not a political platform, but they do have a clear political position here which is tow whatever line the Chinese authorities want them to tow.
Seems to me it was a pretty good platform for the guy to use really, although the attention it gained was more from Blizzard’s reaction than his actions specifically. Gained a fuckload of traction even US Senators are wading in, doubt he’d have been able to elicit such a response with a tweet.
China and especially the Gulf States use sport as an extension of their soft power, they’ve made it political already, likewise the Cold War saw sporting events like the Olympics as an ideological battleground.
if it is not an political extension of soft power,why some officials of the organization are talking about politics？if not,STOP talking.As an official, you can't blatantly confront the Chinese public opinion while thinking that discrimination against Chinese people, Chinese culture and support separatism and violence.
Why not?
National self-determination is a key principle of geopolitics in the modern era.
Considering a bomb blew in the windows of my house when I was but a babe, I’m quite happy that the United States interceded and helped facilitate a peace here that respected both of the national identities in our wee country.
I would personally like to see more of China and its culture emerge onto the world stage, an old and venerable culture indeed, whose people have accomplished remarkable things in the last few decades especially.
If it’s by trampling on everyone and expecting Westerners to bend to their whims and where criticism is construed as a grievous insult then, no thanks.
When you think so, have you ever asked about the thoughts of ordinary Chinese?.
I hope you understand that while this is an interesting conversation, your views are inherently skewed by the propaganda you've been fed every day. We know how the Chinese media works (and it's not just China btw. America has much of the same problems, and most of us here do recognise it as such). You have already made made several false statements and made comparisons that does not make sense (Comparing China to England because England has a mock Queen for instance). As such everything you say will be taken with the biggest grain of salt imaginable
I do think it's interesting what the ordinary Chinese thinks, but it truthfully doesn't matter. You don't get to commit human rights violations and consider it ok because "The ordinary Chinese thinks so". Guess who doesn't think it's ok? Hong Kong and its citizens.
Very interesting, wrong comparison I just want to show that some forms of democracy and freedom will change, just as discrimination against blacks is definitely not one of freedom of speech in the United States. Although Martin Luther King was killed. Similarly, China's democracy and freedom are not so much the same as the United States, because the so-called autocracy and dictator seem to be like the Queen of England and the Emperor of Japan.
And when you talk about it, we should think about Hong Kong and its citizens. I am very eager to ask, do you know how many Hong Kong people participated in this Chinese National Day celebration? Including young people, college students, government officials, police, famous stars, and ordinary people. Do you think we should think about Hong Kong people, then do you know how many people in Hong Kong support the police parade? The police in Hong Kong, the government in Hong Kong, Hong Kong, so many condemns the violent protesters, and the ordinary people, shouting at the bbc reporters, this is Hong Kong, China, the taxi driver who supports the law revision, isn't it Hong Kong?
What you see seems to be the collective public opinion of Hong Kong, actually because those people have amplified this reaction through radical methods.
Think about it, if it is really a problem of the society and the Chinese government, the Hong Kong government, the ordinary people of Hong Kong (Is it not ordinary people and the grassroots officials?) Are these attitudes still not showing anything? Think about how good the credibility of the Hong Kong government is, and the same group of people are not trusted now.
The vast majority of protesters on the streets of Hong Kong are college students, young people, and young unemployed people. Is this a normal antibody or a collective carnival of young people, like an American youth who likes to take drugs?
China has experienced two very painful students, and the young people have dominated the political violent protests, almost smashing the entire country. However, these protests did not make more than a billion people ignorant, and the ordinary Chinese who were at a loss knew how to live well.
The Chinese have supported all the legal acts of Hong Kong and have wanted to split China and Hong Kong for many years. There is nothing too fierce.
We support Hong Kong, support democracy, support freedom, and even to some extent, support universal suffrage in Hong Kong.
However, what you have to understand is what is the slogan of Hong Kong's independence and violence? This is what the Hong Kong player and the NBA rocket manager said.
This is also why the Chinese currently call it a terrorist, because terrorists in the Middle East often call themselves freedom fighters.
If Hong Kong, China, is not dominated by the majority of Chinese people and by the majority of Hong Kong people, then who will decide?
Can Texas and California declare independence today and expel all blacks and people from other states？
So，why China give up HK？and Violent protestors demanding the expulsion of mainlanders？
In mainland China, Hong Kong people's bad reputation, sense of geographical superiority and discrimination against mainlanders are the main reasons。
(you can find it in many Hong Kong movies，In mainland China, Hong Kong people's bad reputation, sense of geographical superiority and discrimination against mainlanders are the main reasons (you can find out from many Hong Kong movies, including asking mainlanders if they have seen Apple phones made in China, and mocking the mainland for lack of high-rise power and modern technology, the same thing is still happening to Chinese people in Europe, the United States, etc.)It used to be Korea and Japan.).
You bring up valid points, but what you seem to miss out on is how this all started in the first place. There is currently a Sino-British joint declaration agreement between China and the UK dated back in 1984 and went into effect in 1997 stating that HK will have its own government, is able to pass its own laws, and that their way of life would not change for 50 years. You can read a bit on that agreement here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-British_Joint_Declaration. This means that in this agreement, China agreed that its PRC principles would not be practiced in HK until 2047.
Despite this agreement, in 2014, China proposed a reform to HK's electoral system, a clear infringement of the agreement. Since China agreed that HK could remain autonomous and have authority over their own government, then why is China screening candidates for HK's Chief Executive? This started around 2014 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests), and afterwards the British Foreign Office announced that Chinese officials now treat this declaration as void. You say China support HK's democracy, then why not let the HK'ers elect who they want, instead of screening who they want the HK people to elect? The HK'ers are upset because they were promised 50 years, but China is trying to impose only 22 years into the treaty. Does this mean China's words aren't even worth 50% of what they put on papers?
So flash forward to the current protest, how did it start? Well, China wanted to pass an extradite bill in HK, another infringement of the current agreement. HK'ers did not want this law, which they are within their own rights to deny since China agreed it will not impose, yet China still adamantly demand that this law be passed. If you look over at the 5 demands HK is currently protesting for, they are extremely reasonable given that China started this by breaking their words.
1. Full withdrawal of the extradition bill - Very valid demand, considering China signed an agreement that they will not be imposing their laws in HK until 2047. Last I checked, it's only 2019.
2. Inquiry into police brutality - Also valid, the people would like to investigate police's conduct. The police are meant to protect the people, not beat them up when they are protesting.
3. Retracting the classification of protesters as rioters - This started because China broke its words, so the people were upset and protested. Had China not broke its words, this wouldn't have happened. The people marched because China lied, not because they randomly rioted out of no where. This point can be a case by case basis with some standards since I understand not all protesters are good, some can be destructive, and we should judge them fairly.
4. Amnesty for arrested protesters - Same as point 3.
5. Dual universal suffrage, for both their Legislative and Chief Executive - Again, China signed an agreement that allows the HK'ers to manage their own government. If they are true to their words, let the HK'ers decide how they want their government to be ran.
My main point is that HK originally didn't protest for independence. This was NOT how the protest started. They started because China lied and backed out of their own words only 22 years into a 50 years signed agreement. It is only escalating because instead of admitting they were in the wrong, China cracked down on the HK citizens. HK citizens now are entertaining independence because they realized Mainland China does not keep its word. To use a Starcraft analogy, this is similar to Mengsk, Reynor, and Kerrigan working together, yet Mengsk abandoned Kerrigan on that one planet (forgot the name). When Reynor became rightfully pissed for what Mengsk did and turned on him, Mengsk called Reynor a terrorist. China is pulling a Mengsk right now.
If China is true to its words. Come back in 28 years and let the HK'ers do what they want to do with their government for now.
1. China hopes to sign extradition regulations with Hong Kong (extending criminal offenders because there have been criminals who have committed murder and rape in mainland China and have been cast into Hong Kong. The Chinese government and other countries such as the United States also have extradition regulations, and the Hong Kong government has other regions. The state has extradition regulations). Why is it rejected? This is not because mainland China requires the implementation of laws in Hong Kong, but hopes to sign regulations with Hong Kong. This is actually very strange. It is actually an agreement between a country and a country within a country.
2. I hope that you can read the Sino-British Joint Declaration carefully. He has not given the British any rights after this. You can blame the Chinese government, but because of this, I think other countries are involved. This is still the Beijing government of China and the Hong Kong region. problem.
In addition, the Chinese government's commitment is to keep Hong Kong unchanged for 50 years. I don't know how you understand it. I have two thoughts. One is to continue Hong Kong before the colony in 1997, and the second is to follow the basic law after 1997. Hong Kong. Before 1997, Hong Kong was a colony. Hong Kong people did not even have British nationality. The leaders of Hong Kong were all British whites. They were also British nationals, both the first and the second, including the Hong Kong Constitution, the Sino-British Joint Declaration. During the British colonial period, there was no universal suffrage. I don't know where Hong Kong's universal suffrage comes from. This violates the Constitution of Hong Kong - the Basic Law. In addition, without universal suffrage, it cannot mean that they have no democracy. Hong Kong's politics is closer to the Swiss political system, and each leader does not adopt the Swiss rotation system.
Keeping it for 50 years, isn't it just that there is no universal suffrage? Once the universal suffrage is not a violation of the China Commitment and the Sino-British Joint Declaration, and the Hong Kong Basic Law? Although I think that Hong Kong has been harming itself for 50 years, the development of first-tier cities in China is much better than that of Hong Kong. For me, I have lived in Shanghai for a long time, and Hong Kong is like a rural area. Of course, I am not actually, most of them. This is also true in Europe, and I have a stark contrast to the views of Japanese cities.
3. The Chinese government of Beijing and all Chinese have never opposed liberal democracy and legal protests. However, after the Cultural Revolution, the Chinese were sensitive to the protests because we realized that such collective behavior would often evolve into violence. For example, China’s previous protests, the US bombing of the Yugoslav embassy, and Japan’s activities to commemorate the death of soldiers in World War II. This kind of parade in China has produced extreme violence, as happened in Hong Kong.
If you don't trust the Chinese and don't trust the Chinese government, don't you believe that the Hong Kong government and the Hong Kong police, which have always been highly praised, don't believe it? Don't you believe in Western media? Go look for their evaluation of the Hong Kong police and the Hong Kong government in history.
4. Special criminals are not advisable. Think about the United States, but the country with the highest proportion of prison population. Of course, I don't want China to become the United States.
But think about it. There are many British nationals in the Hong Kong police, white people (maybe I think you still don't believe in the yellow race, but I don't think it is racist). Hong Kong's judicial system, so the judges are British nationality, Australian nationality, 90% of judges are white.
You should trust them, not a group of unemployed people, a group of young people who have taken a poison and drink alcohol and have sex on the roadside (although you call it freedom, but often these are blocked by neutral media).
Opposite to these violent protesters are peaceful protesters who have long since left the protest, and supporters who support the police, support the Hong Kong government, and support the Chinese government.
They are more numerous, but unfortunately they need to work and they do not use violence. So it seems to be weak, and because many of them are older people (you should have heard of Hong Kong's aging), they are not very familiar with the Internet, and the Internet is now a Z-age person (in fact, 1995-2000) Born person).
5. Why did they protest? Quite simply, young people can't find a job without a way out, and they are poor. The long-term segregation policy with mainland China discriminates against mainland Chinese people and believes that they are all poor people, as whites discriminate against black people.
Hong Kong knows that Hong Kong is bought by Li Ka-shing, and that the Chinese government cannot interfere and support socialism. Everyone has food and housing.
Later, the economic decline of Western society, if you are a European, there should be experience, the US economy has recently grown, but it is also uncomfortable. After the 2008 financial turmoil, it has been declining for a long time.
China is getting better and better. When China gets better, when they find that the Chinese who once earned 200 yuan a month have the same income and even more money, they find that they can’t be like the colonial era. Next, when it came to China, it became a millionaire, went to bed with more girls, and bought more luxurious cosmetics.
So I hope to return to the colonial era and pass violence. (Their slogan is what you saw in this Hong Kong player and the NBA), by robbing mobile phone stores, selling them online, by raising the flags of the United States and the United Kingdom.
I saw Swedes, and I think I should understand why, academically, the Sedgmo syndrome.
Perhaps Westerners believe that the colonial era is very glorious.
On October 10 2019 01:04 Spirit_HUN wrote: When this player signed up for that tournament, he accepted the rules. He simply broke the rules, ended up banning himself.
Blizzard did the right thing. This is a video game company, not a political platform. If you are concerned about human rights in Hong Kong the are other ways, platforms to do that.
You should not force a video game company to be political. There are no political comments in the Olympics, Football, Formula1 etc. as well.
I dont want video games, sports events to be filled with politics. Viewers are there to be entertained, competitors are there to compete, and not to be forced to eat political bs 0-24.
They’re not a political platform, but they do have a clear political position here which is tow whatever line the Chinese authorities want them to tow.
Seems to me it was a pretty good platform for the guy to use really, although the attention it gained was more from Blizzard’s reaction than his actions specifically. Gained a fuckload of traction even US Senators are wading in, doubt he’d have been able to elicit such a response with a tweet.
China and especially the Gulf States use sport as an extension of their soft power, they’ve made it political already, likewise the Cold War saw sporting events like the Olympics as an ideological battleground.
if it is not an political extension of soft power,why some officials of the organization are talking about politics？if not,STOP talking.As an official, you can't blatantly confront the Chinese public opinion while thinking that discrimination against Chinese people, Chinese culture and support separatism and violence.
Why not?
National self-determination is a key principle of geopolitics in the modern era.
Considering a bomb blew in the windows of my house when I was but a babe, I’m quite happy that the United States interceded and helped facilitate a peace here that respected both of the national identities in our wee country.
I would personally like to see more of China and its culture emerge onto the world stage, an old and venerable culture indeed, whose people have accomplished remarkable things in the last few decades especially.
If it’s by trampling on everyone and expecting Westerners to bend to their whims and where criticism is construed as a grievous insult then, no thanks.
When you think so, have you ever asked about the thoughts of ordinary Chinese?.
I hope you understand that while this is an interesting conversation, your views are inherently skewed by the propaganda you've been fed every day. We know how the Chinese media works (and it's not just China btw. America has much of the same problems, and most of us here do recognise it as such). You have already made made several false statements and made comparisons that does not make sense (Comparing China to England because England has a mock Queen for instance). As such everything you say will be taken with the biggest grain of salt imaginable
I do think it's interesting what the ordinary Chinese thinks, but it truthfully doesn't matter. You don't get to commit human rights violations and consider it ok because "The ordinary Chinese thinks so". Guess who doesn't think it's ok? Hong Kong and its citizens.
Very interesting, wrong comparison I just want to show that some forms of democracy and freedom will change, just as discrimination against blacks is definitely not one of freedom of speech in the United States. Although Martin Luther King was killed. Similarly, China's democracy and freedom are not so much the same as the United States, because the so-called autocracy and dictator seem to be like the Queen of England and the Emperor of Japan.
And when you talk about it, we should think about Hong Kong and its citizens. I am very eager to ask, do you know how many Hong Kong people participated in this Chinese National Day celebration? Including young people, college students, government officials, police, famous stars, and ordinary people. Do you think we should think about Hong Kong people, then do you know how many people in Hong Kong support the police parade? The police in Hong Kong, the government in Hong Kong, Hong Kong, so many condemns the violent protesters, and the ordinary people, shouting at the bbc reporters, this is Hong Kong, China, the taxi driver who supports the law revision, isn't it Hong Kong?
What you see seems to be the collective public opinion of Hong Kong, actually because those people have amplified this reaction through radical methods.
Think about it, if it is really a problem of the society and the Chinese government, the Hong Kong government, the ordinary people of Hong Kong (Is it not ordinary people and the grassroots officials?) Are these attitudes still not showing anything? Think about how good the credibility of the Hong Kong government is, and the same group of people are not trusted now.
The vast majority of protesters on the streets of Hong Kong are college students, young people, and young unemployed people. Is this a normal antibody or a collective carnival of young people, like an American youth who likes to take drugs?
China has experienced two very painful students, and the young people have dominated the political violent protests, almost smashing the entire country. However, these protests did not make more than a billion people ignorant, and the ordinary Chinese who were at a loss knew how to live well.
The Chinese have supported all the legal acts of Hong Kong and have wanted to split China and Hong Kong for many years. There is nothing too fierce.
We support Hong Kong, support democracy, support freedom, and even to some extent, support universal suffrage in Hong Kong.
However, what you have to understand is what is the slogan of Hong Kong's independence and violence? This is what the Hong Kong player and the NBA rocket manager said.
This is also why the Chinese currently call it a terrorist, because terrorists in the Middle East often call themselves freedom fighters.
If Hong Kong, China, is not dominated by the majority of Chinese people and by the majority of Hong Kong people, then who will decide?
Can Texas and California declare independence today and expel all blacks and people from other states？
So，why China give up HK？and Violent protestors demanding the expulsion of mainlanders？
In mainland China, Hong Kong people's bad reputation, sense of geographical superiority and discrimination against mainlanders are the main reasons。
(you can find it in many Hong Kong movies，In mainland China, Hong Kong people's bad reputation, sense of geographical superiority and discrimination against mainlanders are the main reasons (you can find out from many Hong Kong movies, including asking mainlanders if they have seen Apple phones made in China, and mocking the mainland for lack of high-rise power and modern technology, the same thing is still happening to Chinese people in Europe, the United States, etc.)It used to be Korea and Japan.).
You bring up valid points, but what you seem to miss out on is how this all started in the first place. There is currently a Sino-British joint declaration agreement between China and the UK dated back in 1984 and went into effect in 1997 stating that HK will have its own government, is able to pass its own laws, and that their way of life would not change for 50 years. You can read a bit on that agreement here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-British_Joint_Declaration. This means that in this agreement, China agreed that its PRC principles would not be practiced in HK until 2047.
Despite this agreement, in 2014, China proposed a reform to HK's electoral system, a clear infringement of the agreement. Since China agreed that HK could remain autonomous and have authority over their own government, then why is China screening candidates for HK's Chief Executive? This started around 2014 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests), and afterwards the British Foreign Office announced that Chinese officials now treat this declaration as void. You say China support HK's democracy, then why not let the HK'ers elect who they want, instead of screening who they want the HK people to elect? The HK'ers are upset because they were promised 50 years, but China is trying to impose only 22 years into the treaty. Does this mean China's words aren't even worth 50% of what they put on papers?
So flash forward to the current protest, how did it start? Well, China wanted to pass an extradite bill in HK, another infringement of the current agreement. HK'ers did not want this law, which they are within their own rights to deny since China agreed it will not impose, yet China still adamantly demand that this law be passed. If you look over at the 5 demands HK is currently protesting for, they are extremely reasonable given that China started this by breaking their words.
1. Full withdrawal of the extradition bill - Very valid demand, considering China signed an agreement that they will not be imposing their laws in HK until 2047. Last I checked, it's only 2019.
2. Inquiry into police brutality - Also valid, the people would like to investigate police's conduct. The police are meant to protect the people, not beat them up when they are protesting.
3. Retracting the classification of protesters as rioters - This started because China broke its words, so the people were upset and protested. Had China not broke its words, this wouldn't have happened. The people marched because China lied, not because they randomly rioted out of no where. This point can be a case by case basis with some standards since I understand not all protesters are good, some can be destructive, and we should judge them fairly.
4. Amnesty for arrested protesters - Same as point 3.
5. Dual universal suffrage, for both their Legislative and Chief Executive - Again, China signed an agreement that allows the HK'ers to manage their own government. If they are true to their words, let the HK'ers decide how they want their government to be ran.
My main point is that HK originally didn't protest for independence. This was NOT how the protest started. They started because China lied and backed out of their own words only 22 years into a 50 years signed agreement. It is only escalating because instead of admitting they were in the wrong, China cracked down on the HK citizens. HK citizens now are entertaining independence because they realized Mainland China does not keep its word. To use a Starcraft analogy, this is similar to Mengsk, Reynor, and Kerrigan working together, yet Mengsk abandoned Kerrigan on that one planet (forgot the name). When Reynor became rightfully pissed for what Mengsk did and turned on him, Mengsk called Reynor a terrorist. China is pulling a Mengsk right now.
If China is true to its words. Come back in 28 years and let the HK'ers do what they want to do with their government for now.
1. China hopes to sign extradition regulations with Hong Kong (extending criminal offenders because there have been criminals who have committed murder and rape in mainland China and have been cast into Hong Kong. The Chinese government and other countries such as the United States also have extradition regulations, and the Hong Kong government has other regions. The state has extradition regulations). Why is it rejected? This is not because mainland China requires the implementation of laws in Hong Kong, but hopes to sign regulations with Hong Kong. This is actually very strange. It is actually an agreement between a country and a country within a country.
2. I hope that you can read the Sino-British Joint Declaration carefully. He has not given the British any rights after this. You can blame the Chinese government, but because of this, I think other countries are involved. This is still the Beijing government of China and the Hong Kong region. problem.
In addition, the Chinese government's commitment is to keep Hong Kong unchanged for 50 years. I don't know how you understand it. I have two thoughts. One is to continue Hong Kong before the colony in 1997, and the second is to follow the basic law after 1997. Hong Kong. Before 1997, Hong Kong was a colony. Hong Kong people did not even have British nationality. The leaders of Hong Kong were all British whites. They were also British nationals, both the first and the second, including the Hong Kong Constitution, the Sino-British Joint Declaration. During the British colonial period, there was no universal suffrage. I don't know where Hong Kong's universal suffrage comes from. This violates the Constitution of Hong Kong - the Basic Law. In addition, without universal suffrage, it cannot mean that they have no democracy. Hong Kong's politics is closer to the Swiss political system, and each leader does not adopt the Swiss rotation system.
Keeping it for 50 years, isn't it just that there is no universal suffrage? Once the universal suffrage is not a violation of the China Commitment and the Sino-British Joint Declaration, and the Hong Kong Basic Law? Although I think that Hong Kong has been harming itself for 50 years, the development of first-tier cities in China is much better than that of Hong Kong. For me, I have lived in Shanghai for a long time, and Hong Kong is like a rural area. Of course, I am not actually, most of them. This is also true in Europe, and I have a stark contrast to the views of Japanese cities.
3. The Chinese government of Beijing and all Chinese have never opposed liberal democracy and legal protests. However, after the Cultural Revolution, the Chinese were sensitive to the protests because we realized that such collective behavior would often evolve into violence. For example, China’s previous protests, the US bombing of the Yugoslav embassy, and Japan’s activities to commemorate the death of soldiers in World War II. This kind of parade in China has produced extreme violence, as happened in Hong Kong.
If you don't trust the Chinese and don't trust the Chinese government, don't you believe that the Hong Kong government and the Hong Kong police, which have always been highly praised, don't believe it? Don't you believe in Western media? Go look for their evaluation of the Hong Kong police and the Hong Kong government in history.
4. Special criminals are not advisable. Think about the United States, but the country with the highest proportion of prison population. Of course, I don't want China to become the United States.
But think about it. There are many British nationals in the Hong Kong police, white people (maybe I think you still don't believe in the yellow race, but I don't think it is racist). Hong Kong's judicial system, so the judges are British nationality, Australian nationality, 90% of judges are white.
You should trust them, not a group of unemployed people, a group of young people who have taken a poison and drink alcohol and have sex on the roadside (although you call it freedom, but often these are blocked by neutral media).
Opposite to these violent protesters are peaceful protesters who have long since left the protest, and supporters who support the police, support the Hong Kong government, and support the Chinese government.
They are more numerous, but unfortunately they need to work and they do not use violence. So it seems to be weak, and because many of them are older people (you should have heard of Hong Kong's aging), they are not very familiar with the Internet, and the Internet is now a Z-age person (in fact, 1995-2000) Born person).
5. Why did they protest? Quite simply, young people can't find a job without a way out, and they are poor. The long-term segregation policy with mainland China discriminates against mainland Chinese people and believes that they are all poor people, as whites discriminate against black people.
Hong Kong knows that Hong Kong is bought by Li Ka-shing, and that the Chinese government cannot interfere and support socialism. Everyone has food and housing.
Later, the economic decline of Western society, if you are a European, there should be experience, the US economy has recently grown, but it is also uncomfortable. After the 2008 financial turmoil, it has been declining for a long time.
China is getting better and better. When China gets better, when they find that the Chinese who once earned 200 yuan a month have the same income and even more money, they find that they can’t be like the colonial era. Next, when it came to China, it became a millionaire, went to bed with more girls, and bought more luxurious cosmetics.
So I hope to return to the colonial era and pass violence. (Their slogan is what you saw in this Hong Kong player and the NBA), by robbing mobile phone stores, selling them online, by raising the flags of the United States and the United Kingdom.
I saw Swedes, and I think I should understand why, academically, the Sedgmo syndrome.
Perhaps Westerners believe that the colonial era is very glorious.
"don't you believe that the Hong Kong government and the Hong Kong police, which have always been highly praised" "Why did they protest? Quite simply, young people can't find a job without a way out, and they are poor. The long-term segregation policy with mainland China discriminates against mainland Chinese people and believes that they are all poor people, as whites discriminate against black people."
This is trolling for sure... I can hardly find any other explanations. I can't take this seriously. This dude probably just heard about Blizzard Hearthstone news today and read some discussion about Hong Kong on Weibo and decided to make a post.
On October 10 2019 04:19 whitehat511 wrote: You've got to love all the irony of all these Americans and Europeans throwing around accusations that the Chinese government has committed atrocities. You know what they say about people in glass houses.
What are you talking about? I was young yes but I was at the Iraq war protests back in the day, across the West these constituted some of the biggest mass protests that have ever occurred:
In my native land nobody but the genuinely bigoted from my British background would support the actions taken by the British armed forces on Bloody Sunday, and if anything even vaguely similar happened today people would be out protesting.
Regardless of atrocities or not, to me the crux of the issue is a Western company stifling and censoring around said issues, not what the Chinese do or don’t do.
To be an active agent in this process, rather than assuming a neutral or totally apolitical stance entirely.
On October 10 2019 01:04 Spirit_HUN wrote: When this player signed up for that tournament, he accepted the rules. He simply broke the rules, ended up banning himself.
Blizzard did the right thing. This is a video game company, not a political platform. If you are concerned about human rights in Hong Kong the are other ways, platforms to do that.
You should not force a video game company to be political. There are no political comments in the Olympics, Football, Formula1 etc. as well.
I dont want video games, sports events to be filled with politics. Viewers are there to be entertained, competitors are there to compete, and not to be forced to eat political bs 0-24.
They’re not a political platform, but they do have a clear political position here which is tow whatever line the Chinese authorities want them to tow.
Seems to me it was a pretty good platform for the guy to use really, although the attention it gained was more from Blizzard’s reaction than his actions specifically. Gained a fuckload of traction even US Senators are wading in, doubt he’d have been able to elicit such a response with a tweet.
China and especially the Gulf States use sport as an extension of their soft power, they’ve made it political already, likewise the Cold War saw sporting events like the Olympics as an ideological battleground.
if it is not an political extension of soft power,why some officials of the organization are talking about politics？if not,STOP talking.As an official, you can't blatantly confront the Chinese public opinion while thinking that discrimination against Chinese people, Chinese culture and support separatism and violence.
Why not?
National self-determination is a key principle of geopolitics in the modern era.
Considering a bomb blew in the windows of my house when I was but a babe, I’m quite happy that the United States interceded and helped facilitate a peace here that respected both of the national identities in our wee country.
I would personally like to see more of China and its culture emerge onto the world stage, an old and venerable culture indeed, whose people have accomplished remarkable things in the last few decades especially.
If it’s by trampling on everyone and expecting Westerners to bend to their whims and where criticism is construed as a grievous insult then, no thanks.
When you think so, have you ever asked about the thoughts of ordinary Chinese? It's like I'm here to express the thoughts of an ordinary Chinese. Indeed, I feel sad that I didn't learn English well, because what I lost is not a good paper, but an opportunity to communicate with others.
Not only Americans can define the world. The pioneers of socialism and communism are Germans and French. Formerly President Roosevelt of the United States was also criticized for socialism or communism. But think about Chinese history, the current development of China, and the past workers of Britain.
Some ideological conflicts are unavoidable, especially under the propaganda of some western media, they usually distort the report in order to satisfy their own interests.
China does not do very well in many places, but it does not want to do so. No Chinese wants his country to be like India with the same population. (I do not mean to discriminate. Most Chinese want to live a good life first and guarantee everyone the same rights, wealth, rights and status.)
In China, it is still possible to elect people who have been upgraded from the grassroots level through examinations and votes, while officials at the grassroots level are also elected.
In China, former leaders were even born to poor peasants rather than a billion-dollar owner or equally wealthy political family. Both father and son are presidents.
Western media believe that China is undemocratic and not free, and the Chinese believe that they are free and democratic. This seems to be a disgusting tactic.
I was disappointed with many of the statements, especially those of the distorted Sixth Fourth Movement (my father was one of the participants, but later they built China into the second largest country in the world), and those who believed that the Hong Kong police should not react to any of the protestors'actions.
When commenting, consider that China has 1.4 billion people. This country can not change because of the ideas of more than a dozen people, thousands of people and tens of thousands of people.
The most important thing is to ensure that more than a billion people, like other Westerners, can live with wealth and dignity on this planet.
I wonder what this guy thinks about the hundreds of students that were murdered at Tienanmen Square in 1989.
And I wonder what you think about the Trail of Tears?
The Trail of Tears is universally taught as an abhorrent action by the United States government here in the US. It is not celebrated. Its brutal events are condemned by the people and by society. So now tell us what you think about Tienanmen Square in 1989.
The Chinese often regard 1989 as the same event as the Cultural Revolution. If you preach him, for the Chinese, as if to promote k.k.k, my father used to be one of them, but he told me a lot. The reason why the Chinese do not want to talk about the 1989 and the Cultural Revolution, because this is a disaster and an unspeakable thing. More importantly, they are related to political struggles. It’s as if Americans don’t talk about Lincoln actually not liberating all black slaves. The African Americans actually struggled for human rights until the 1960s-1970s, but today it is no longer a simple assassination of Martin Luther King.
In fact, you can see when I see you talking to you here. China is not what you think. I will still talk to you about this, because Blizzard is often more tolerant, just like StarCraft, or World of Warcraft shows. I will not be arrested.
Similarly, if I know you in reality, maybe I will pretend not to know and be surprised as you mentioned above. In fact, I started to understand 1989, or from China's website (dark network, the Chinese network is very complicated, in fact, you can find what you want, including everything that violates all human laws)
Because we don't want to talk about it, this is not a simple thing. Just like we don't talk about conspiracy theories on the moon or aliens in the 51st district. We talked about Kennedy flying more to the moon and today's nasa, not to him and Marilyn Monroe, as well as Cuba, and the conspiracy theories he was killed. (Actually, these conspiracy theories in the United States were very popular in China. People refused to believe that landing on the moon was true. People also believed that Kennedy died of Marilyn Monroe and family curses, and there were really aliens in District 51.)
On October 10 2019 01:04 Spirit_HUN wrote: When this player signed up for that tournament, he accepted the rules. He simply broke the rules, ended up banning himself.
Blizzard did the right thing. This is a video game company, not a political platform. If you are concerned about human rights in Hong Kong the are other ways, platforms to do that.
You should not force a video game company to be political. There are no political comments in the Olympics, Football, Formula1 etc. as well.
I dont want video games, sports events to be filled with politics. Viewers are there to be entertained, competitors are there to compete, and not to be forced to eat political bs 0-24.
They’re not a political platform, but they do have a clear political position here which is tow whatever line the Chinese authorities want them to tow.
Seems to me it was a pretty good platform for the guy to use really, although the attention it gained was more from Blizzard’s reaction than his actions specifically. Gained a fuckload of traction even US Senators are wading in, doubt he’d have been able to elicit such a response with a tweet.
China and especially the Gulf States use sport as an extension of their soft power, they’ve made it political already, likewise the Cold War saw sporting events like the Olympics as an ideological battleground.
if it is not an political extension of soft power,why some officials of the organization are talking about politics？if not,STOP talking.As an official, you can't blatantly confront the Chinese public opinion while thinking that discrimination against Chinese people, Chinese culture and support separatism and violence.
Why not?
National self-determination is a key principle of geopolitics in the modern era.
Considering a bomb blew in the windows of my house when I was but a babe, I’m quite happy that the United States interceded and helped facilitate a peace here that respected both of the national identities in our wee country.
I would personally like to see more of China and its culture emerge onto the world stage, an old and venerable culture indeed, whose people have accomplished remarkable things in the last few decades especially.
If it’s by trampling on everyone and expecting Westerners to bend to their whims and where criticism is construed as a grievous insult then, no thanks.
When you think so, have you ever asked about the thoughts of ordinary Chinese?.
I hope you understand that while this is an interesting conversation, your views are inherently skewed by the propaganda you've been fed every day. We know how the Chinese media works (and it's not just China btw. America has much of the same problems, and most of us here do recognise it as such). You have already made made several false statements and made comparisons that does not make sense (Comparing China to England because England has a mock Queen for instance). As such everything you say will be taken with the biggest grain of salt imaginable
I do think it's interesting what the ordinary Chinese thinks, but it truthfully doesn't matter. You don't get to commit human rights violations and consider it ok because "The ordinary Chinese thinks so". Guess who doesn't think it's ok? Hong Kong and its citizens.
Very interesting, wrong comparison I just want to show that some forms of democracy and freedom will change, just as discrimination against blacks is definitely not one of freedom of speech in the United States. Although Martin Luther King was killed. Similarly, China's democracy and freedom are not so much the same as the United States, because the so-called autocracy and dictator seem to be like the Queen of England and the Emperor of Japan.
And when you talk about it, we should think about Hong Kong and its citizens. I am very eager to ask, do you know how many Hong Kong people participated in this Chinese National Day celebration? Including young people, college students, government officials, police, famous stars, and ordinary people. Do you think we should think about Hong Kong people, then do you know how many people in Hong Kong support the police parade? The police in Hong Kong, the government in Hong Kong, Hong Kong, so many condemns the violent protesters, and the ordinary people, shouting at the bbc reporters, this is Hong Kong, China, the taxi driver who supports the law revision, isn't it Hong Kong?
What you see seems to be the collective public opinion of Hong Kong, actually because those people have amplified this reaction through radical methods.
Think about it, if it is really a problem of the society and the Chinese government, the Hong Kong government, the ordinary people of Hong Kong (Is it not ordinary people and the grassroots officials?) Are these attitudes still not showing anything? Think about how good the credibility of the Hong Kong government is, and the same group of people are not trusted now.
The vast majority of protesters on the streets of Hong Kong are college students, young people, and young unemployed people. Is this a normal antibody or a collective carnival of young people, like an American youth who likes to take drugs?
China has experienced two very painful students, and the young people have dominated the political violent protests, almost smashing the entire country. However, these protests did not make more than a billion people ignorant, and the ordinary Chinese who were at a loss knew how to live well.
The Chinese have supported all the legal acts of Hong Kong and have wanted to split China and Hong Kong for many years. There is nothing too fierce.
We support Hong Kong, support democracy, support freedom, and even to some extent, support universal suffrage in Hong Kong.
However, what you have to understand is what is the slogan of Hong Kong's independence and violence? This is what the Hong Kong player and the NBA rocket manager said.
This is also why the Chinese currently call it a terrorist, because terrorists in the Middle East often call themselves freedom fighters.
If Hong Kong, China, is not dominated by the majority of Chinese people and by the majority of Hong Kong people, then who will decide?
Can Texas and California declare independence today and expel all blacks and people from other states？
So，why China give up HK？and Violent protestors demanding the expulsion of mainlanders？
In mainland China, Hong Kong people's bad reputation, sense of geographical superiority and discrimination against mainlanders are the main reasons。
(you can find it in many Hong Kong movies，In mainland China, Hong Kong people's bad reputation, sense of geographical superiority and discrimination against mainlanders are the main reasons (you can find out from many Hong Kong movies, including asking mainlanders if they have seen Apple phones made in China, and mocking the mainland for lack of high-rise power and modern technology, the same thing is still happening to Chinese people in Europe, the United States, etc.)It used to be Korea and Japan.).
You bring up valid points, but what you seem to miss out on is how this all started in the first place. There is currently a Sino-British joint declaration agreement between China and the UK dated back in 1984 and went into effect in 1997 stating that HK will have its own government, is able to pass its own laws, and that their way of life would not change for 50 years. You can read a bit on that agreement here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-British_Joint_Declaration. This means that in this agreement, China agreed that its PRC principles would not be practiced in HK until 2047.
Despite this agreement, in 2014, China proposed a reform to HK's electoral system, a clear infringement of the agreement. Since China agreed that HK could remain autonomous and have authority over their own government, then why is China screening candidates for HK's Chief Executive? This started around 2014 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests), and afterwards the British Foreign Office announced that Chinese officials now treat this declaration as void. You say China support HK's democracy, then why not let the HK'ers elect who they want, instead of screening who they want the HK people to elect? The HK'ers are upset because they were promised 50 years, but China is trying to impose only 22 years into the treaty. Does this mean China's words aren't even worth 50% of what they put on papers?
So flash forward to the current protest, how did it start? Well, China wanted to pass an extradite bill in HK, another infringement of the current agreement. HK'ers did not want this law, which they are within their own rights to deny since China agreed it will not impose, yet China still adamantly demand that this law be passed. If you look over at the 5 demands HK is currently protesting for, they are extremely reasonable given that China started this by breaking their words.
1. Full withdrawal of the extradition bill - Very valid demand, considering China signed an agreement that they will not be imposing their laws in HK until 2047. Last I checked, it's only 2019.
2. Inquiry into police brutality - Also valid, the people would like to investigate police's conduct. The police are meant to protect the people, not beat them up when they are protesting.
3. Retracting the classification of protesters as rioters - This started because China broke its words, so the people were upset and protested. Had China not broke its words, this wouldn't have happened. The people marched because China lied, not because they randomly rioted out of no where. This point can be a case by case basis with some standards since I understand not all protesters are good, some can be destructive, and we should judge them fairly.
4. Amnesty for arrested protesters - Same as point 3.
5. Dual universal suffrage, for both their Legislative and Chief Executive - Again, China signed an agreement that allows the HK'ers to manage their own government. If they are true to their words, let the HK'ers decide how they want their government to be ran.
My main point is that HK originally didn't protest for independence. This was NOT how the protest started. They started because China lied and backed out of their own words only 22 years into a 50 years signed agreement. It is only escalating because instead of admitting they were in the wrong, China cracked down on the HK citizens. HK citizens now are entertaining independence because they realized Mainland China does not keep its word. To use a Starcraft analogy, this is similar to Mengsk, Reynor, and Kerrigan working together, yet Mengsk abandoned Kerrigan on that one planet (forgot the name). When Reynor became rightfully pissed for what Mengsk did and turned on him, Mengsk called Reynor a terrorist. China is pulling a Mengsk right now.
If China is true to its words. Come back in 28 years and let the HK'ers do what they want to do with their government for now.
1. China hopes to sign extradition regulations with Hong Kong (extending criminal offenders because there have been criminals who have committed murder and rape in mainland China and have been cast into Hong Kong. The Chinese government and other countries such as the United States also have extradition regulations, and the Hong Kong government has other regions. The state has extradition regulations). Why is it rejected? This is not because mainland China requires the implementation of laws in Hong Kong, but hopes to sign regulations with Hong Kong. This is actually very strange. It is actually an agreement between a country and a country within a country.
2. I hope that you can read the Sino-British Joint Declaration carefully. He has not given the British any rights after this. You can blame the Chinese government, but because of this, I think other countries are involved. This is still the Beijing government of China and the Hong Kong region. problem.
In addition, the Chinese government's commitment is to keep Hong Kong unchanged for 50 years. I don't know how you understand it. I have two thoughts. One is to continue Hong Kong before the colony in 1997, and the second is to follow the basic law after 1997. Hong Kong. Before 1997, Hong Kong was a colony. Hong Kong people did not even have British nationality. The leaders of Hong Kong were all British whites. They were also British nationals, both the first and the second, including the Hong Kong Constitution, the Sino-British Joint Declaration. During the British colonial period, there was no universal suffrage. I don't know where Hong Kong's universal suffrage comes from. This violates the Constitution of Hong Kong - the Basic Law. In addition, without universal suffrage, it cannot mean that they have no democracy. Hong Kong's politics is closer to the Swiss political system, and each leader does not adopt the Swiss rotation system.
Keeping it for 50 years, isn't it just that there is no universal suffrage? Once the universal suffrage is not a violation of the China Commitment and the Sino-British Joint Declaration, and the Hong Kong Basic Law? Although I think that Hong Kong has been harming itself for 50 years, the development of first-tier cities in China is much better than that of Hong Kong. For me, I have lived in Shanghai for a long time, and Hong Kong is like a rural area. Of course, I am not actually, most of them. This is also true in Europe, and I have a stark contrast to the views of Japanese cities.
3. The Chinese government of Beijing and all Chinese have never opposed liberal democracy and legal protests. However, after the Cultural Revolution, the Chinese were sensitive to the protests because we realized that such collective behavior would often evolve into violence. For example, China’s previous protests, the US bombing of the Yugoslav embassy, and Japan’s activities to commemorate the death of soldiers in World War II. This kind of parade in China has produced extreme violence, as happened in Hong Kong.
If you don't trust the Chinese and don't trust the Chinese government, don't you believe that the Hong Kong government and the Hong Kong police, which have always been highly praised, don't believe it? Don't you believe in Western media? Go look for their evaluation of the Hong Kong police and the Hong Kong government in history.
4. Special criminals are not advisable. Think about the United States, but the country with the highest proportion of prison population. Of course, I don't want China to become the United States.
But think about it. There are many British nationals in the Hong Kong police, white people (maybe I think you still don't believe in the yellow race, but I don't think it is racist). Hong Kong's judicial system, so the judges are British nationality, Australian nationality, 90% of judges are white.
You should trust them, not a group of unemployed people, a group of young people who have taken a poison and drink alcohol and have sex on the roadside (although you call it freedom, but often these are blocked by neutral media).
Opposite to these violent protesters are peaceful protesters who have long since left the protest, and supporters who support the police, support the Hong Kong government, and support the Chinese government.
They are more numerous, but unfortunately they need to work and they do not use violence. So it seems to be weak, and because many of them are older people (you should have heard of Hong Kong's aging), they are not very familiar with the Internet, and the Internet is now a Z-age person (in fact, 1995-2000) Born person).
5. Why did they protest? Quite simply, young people can't find a job without a way out, and they are poor. The long-term segregation policy with mainland China discriminates against mainland Chinese people and believes that they are all poor people, as whites discriminate against black people.
Hong Kong knows that Hong Kong is bought by Li Ka-shing, and that the Chinese government cannot interfere and support socialism. Everyone has food and housing.
Later, the economic decline of Western society, if you are a European, there should be experience, the US economy has recently grown, but it is also uncomfortable. After the 2008 financial turmoil, it has been declining for a long time.
China is getting better and better. When China gets better, when they find that the Chinese who once earned 200 yuan a month have the same income and even more money, they find that they can’t be like the colonial era. Next, when it came to China, it became a millionaire, went to bed with more girls, and bought more luxurious cosmetics.
So I hope to return to the colonial era and pass violence. (Their slogan is what you saw in this Hong Kong player and the NBA), by robbing mobile phone stores, selling them online, by raising the flags of the United States and the United Kingdom.
I saw Swedes, and I think I should understand why, academically, the Sedgmo syndrome.
Perhaps Westerners believe that the colonial era is very glorious.
"don't you believe that the Hong Kong government and the Hong Kong police, which have always been highly praised" "Why did they protest? Quite simply, young people can't find a job without a way out, and they are poor. The long-term segregation policy with mainland China discriminates against mainland Chinese people and believes that they are all poor people, as whites discriminate against black people."
This is trolling for sure... I can hardly find any other explanations.
Hmm, I'd say it's a combination of a narrow, biased and generalizing worldview combined with poor English.
On October 10 2019 01:04 Spirit_HUN wrote: When this player signed up for that tournament, he accepted the rules. He simply broke the rules, ended up banning himself.
Blizzard did the right thing. This is a video game company, not a political platform. If you are concerned about human rights in Hong Kong the are other ways, platforms to do that.
You should not force a video game company to be political. There are no political comments in the Olympics, Football, Formula1 etc. as well.
I dont want video games, sports events to be filled with politics. Viewers are there to be entertained, competitors are there to compete, and not to be forced to eat political bs 0-24.
They’re not a political platform, but they do have a clear political position here which is tow whatever line the Chinese authorities want them to tow.
Seems to me it was a pretty good platform for the guy to use really, although the attention it gained was more from Blizzard’s reaction than his actions specifically. Gained a fuckload of traction even US Senators are wading in, doubt he’d have been able to elicit such a response with a tweet.
China and especially the Gulf States use sport as an extension of their soft power, they’ve made it political already, likewise the Cold War saw sporting events like the Olympics as an ideological battleground.
if it is not an political extension of soft power,why some officials of the organization are talking about politics？if not,STOP talking.As an official, you can't blatantly confront the Chinese public opinion while thinking that discrimination against Chinese people, Chinese culture and support separatism and violence.
Why not?
National self-determination is a key principle of geopolitics in the modern era.
Considering a bomb blew in the windows of my house when I was but a babe, I’m quite happy that the United States interceded and helped facilitate a peace here that respected both of the national identities in our wee country.
I would personally like to see more of China and its culture emerge onto the world stage, an old and venerable culture indeed, whose people have accomplished remarkable things in the last few decades especially.
If it’s by trampling on everyone and expecting Westerners to bend to their whims and where criticism is construed as a grievous insult then, no thanks.
When you think so, have you ever asked about the thoughts of ordinary Chinese?.
I hope you understand that while this is an interesting conversation, your views are inherently skewed by the propaganda you've been fed every day. We know how the Chinese media works (and it's not just China btw. America has much of the same problems, and most of us here do recognise it as such). You have already made made several false statements and made comparisons that does not make sense (Comparing China to England because England has a mock Queen for instance). As such everything you say will be taken with the biggest grain of salt imaginable
I do think it's interesting what the ordinary Chinese thinks, but it truthfully doesn't matter. You don't get to commit human rights violations and consider it ok because "The ordinary Chinese thinks so". Guess who doesn't think it's ok? Hong Kong and its citizens.
Very interesting, wrong comparison I just want to show that some forms of democracy and freedom will change, just as discrimination against blacks is definitely not one of freedom of speech in the United States. Although Martin Luther King was killed. Similarly, China's democracy and freedom are not so much the same as the United States, because the so-called autocracy and dictator seem to be like the Queen of England and the Emperor of Japan.
And when you talk about it, we should think about Hong Kong and its citizens. I am very eager to ask, do you know how many Hong Kong people participated in this Chinese National Day celebration? Including young people, college students, government officials, police, famous stars, and ordinary people. Do you think we should think about Hong Kong people, then do you know how many people in Hong Kong support the police parade? The police in Hong Kong, the government in Hong Kong, Hong Kong, so many condemns the violent protesters, and the ordinary people, shouting at the bbc reporters, this is Hong Kong, China, the taxi driver who supports the law revision, isn't it Hong Kong?
What you see seems to be the collective public opinion of Hong Kong, actually because those people have amplified this reaction through radical methods.
Think about it, if it is really a problem of the society and the Chinese government, the Hong Kong government, the ordinary people of Hong Kong (Is it not ordinary people and the grassroots officials?) Are these attitudes still not showing anything? Think about how good the credibility of the Hong Kong government is, and the same group of people are not trusted now.
The vast majority of protesters on the streets of Hong Kong are college students, young people, and young unemployed people. Is this a normal antibody or a collective carnival of young people, like an American youth who likes to take drugs?
China has experienced two very painful students, and the young people have dominated the political violent protests, almost smashing the entire country. However, these protests did not make more than a billion people ignorant, and the ordinary Chinese who were at a loss knew how to live well.
The Chinese have supported all the legal acts of Hong Kong and have wanted to split China and Hong Kong for many years. There is nothing too fierce.
We support Hong Kong, support democracy, support freedom, and even to some extent, support universal suffrage in Hong Kong.
However, what you have to understand is what is the slogan of Hong Kong's independence and violence? This is what the Hong Kong player and the NBA rocket manager said.
This is also why the Chinese currently call it a terrorist, because terrorists in the Middle East often call themselves freedom fighters.
If Hong Kong, China, is not dominated by the majority of Chinese people and by the majority of Hong Kong people, then who will decide?
Can Texas and California declare independence today and expel all blacks and people from other states？
So，why China give up HK？and Violent protestors demanding the expulsion of mainlanders？
In mainland China, Hong Kong people's bad reputation, sense of geographical superiority and discrimination against mainlanders are the main reasons。
(you can find it in many Hong Kong movies，In mainland China, Hong Kong people's bad reputation, sense of geographical superiority and discrimination against mainlanders are the main reasons (you can find out from many Hong Kong movies, including asking mainlanders if they have seen Apple phones made in China, and mocking the mainland for lack of high-rise power and modern technology, the same thing is still happening to Chinese people in Europe, the United States, etc.)It used to be Korea and Japan.).
You bring up valid points, but what you seem to miss out on is how this all started in the first place. There is currently a Sino-British joint declaration agreement between China and the UK dated back in 1984 and went into effect in 1997 stating that HK will have its own government, is able to pass its own laws, and that their way of life would not change for 50 years. You can read a bit on that agreement here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-British_Joint_Declaration. This means that in this agreement, China agreed that its PRC principles would not be practiced in HK until 2047.
Despite this agreement, in 2014, China proposed a reform to HK's electoral system, a clear infringement of the agreement. Since China agreed that HK could remain autonomous and have authority over their own government, then why is China screening candidates for HK's Chief Executive? This started around 2014 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests), and afterwards the British Foreign Office announced that Chinese officials now treat this declaration as void. You say China support HK's democracy, then why not let the HK'ers elect who they want, instead of screening who they want the HK people to elect? The HK'ers are upset because they were promised 50 years, but China is trying to impose only 22 years into the treaty. Does this mean China's words aren't even worth 50% of what they put on papers?
So flash forward to the current protest, how did it start? Well, China wanted to pass an extradite bill in HK, another infringement of the current agreement. HK'ers did not want this law, which they are within their own rights to deny since China agreed it will not impose, yet China still adamantly demand that this law be passed. If you look over at the 5 demands HK is currently protesting for, they are extremely reasonable given that China started this by breaking their words.
1. Full withdrawal of the extradition bill - Very valid demand, considering China signed an agreement that they will not be imposing their laws in HK until 2047. Last I checked, it's only 2019.
2. Inquiry into police brutality - Also valid, the people would like to investigate police's conduct. The police are meant to protect the people, not beat them up when they are protesting.
3. Retracting the classification of protesters as rioters - This started because China broke its words, so the people were upset and protested. Had China not broke its words, this wouldn't have happened. The people marched because China lied, not because they randomly rioted out of no where. This point can be a case by case basis with some standards since I understand not all protesters are good, some can be destructive, and we should judge them fairly.
4. Amnesty for arrested protesters - Same as point 3.
5. Dual universal suffrage, for both their Legislative and Chief Executive - Again, China signed an agreement that allows the HK'ers to manage their own government. If they are true to their words, let the HK'ers decide how they want their government to be ran.
My main point is that HK originally didn't protest for independence. This was NOT how the protest started. They started because China lied and backed out of their own words only 22 years into a 50 years signed agreement. It is only escalating because instead of admitting they were in the wrong, China cracked down on the HK citizens. HK citizens now are entertaining independence because they realized Mainland China does not keep its word. To use a Starcraft analogy, this is similar to Mengsk, Reynor, and Kerrigan working together, yet Mengsk abandoned Kerrigan on that one planet (forgot the name). When Reynor became rightfully pissed for what Mengsk did and turned on him, Mengsk called Reynor a terrorist. China is pulling a Mengsk right now.
If China is true to its words. Come back in 28 years and let the HK'ers do what they want to do with their government for now.
1. China hopes to sign extradition regulations with Hong Kong (extending criminal offenders because there have been criminals who have committed murder and rape in mainland China and have been cast into Hong Kong. The Chinese government and other countries such as the United States also have extradition regulations, and the Hong Kong government has other regions. The state has extradition regulations). Why is it rejected? This is not because mainland China requires the implementation of laws in Hong Kong, but hopes to sign regulations with Hong Kong. This is actually very strange. It is actually an agreement between a country and a country within a country.
2. I hope that you can read the Sino-British Joint Declaration carefully. He has not given the British any rights after this. You can blame the Chinese government, but because of this, I think other countries are involved. This is still the Beijing government of China and the Hong Kong region. problem.
In addition, the Chinese government's commitment is to keep Hong Kong unchanged for 50 years. I don't know how you understand it. I have two thoughts. One is to continue Hong Kong before the colony in 1997, and the second is to follow the basic law after 1997. Hong Kong. Before 1997, Hong Kong was a colony. Hong Kong people did not even have British nationality. The leaders of Hong Kong were all British whites. They were also British nationals, both the first and the second, including the Hong Kong Constitution, the Sino-British Joint Declaration. During the British colonial period, there was no universal suffrage. I don't know where Hong Kong's universal suffrage comes from. This violates the Constitution of Hong Kong - the Basic Law. In addition, without universal suffrage, it cannot mean that they have no democracy. Hong Kong's politics is closer to the Swiss political system, and each leader does not adopt the Swiss rotation system.
Keeping it for 50 years, isn't it just that there is no universal suffrage? Once the universal suffrage is not a violation of the China Commitment and the Sino-British Joint Declaration, and the Hong Kong Basic Law? Although I think that Hong Kong has been harming itself for 50 years, the development of first-tier cities in China is much better than that of Hong Kong. For me, I have lived in Shanghai for a long time, and Hong Kong is like a rural area. Of course, I am not actually, most of them. This is also true in Europe, and I have a stark contrast to the views of Japanese cities.
3. The Chinese government of Beijing and all Chinese have never opposed liberal democracy and legal protests. However, after the Cultural Revolution, the Chinese were sensitive to the protests because we realized that such collective behavior would often evolve into violence. For example, China’s previous protests, the US bombing of the Yugoslav embassy, and Japan’s activities to commemorate the death of soldiers in World War II. This kind of parade in China has produced extreme violence, as happened in Hong Kong.
If you don't trust the Chinese and don't trust the Chinese government, don't you believe that the Hong Kong government and the Hong Kong police, which have always been highly praised, don't believe it? Don't you believe in Western media? Go look for their evaluation of the Hong Kong police and the Hong Kong government in history.
4. Special criminals are not advisable. Think about the United States, but the country with the highest proportion of prison population. Of course, I don't want China to become the United States.
But think about it. There are many British nationals in the Hong Kong police, white people (maybe I think you still don't believe in the yellow race, but I don't think it is racist). Hong Kong's judicial system, so the judges are British nationality, Australian nationality, 90% of judges are white.
You should trust them, not a group of unemployed people, a group of young people who have taken a poison and drink alcohol and have sex on the roadside (although you call it freedom, but often these are blocked by neutral media).
Opposite to these violent protesters are peaceful protesters who have long since left the protest, and supporters who support the police, support the Hong Kong government, and support the Chinese government.
They are more numerous, but unfortunately they need to work and they do not use violence. So it seems to be weak, and because many of them are older people (you should have heard of Hong Kong's aging), they are not very familiar with the Internet, and the Internet is now a Z-age person (in fact, 1995-2000) Born person).
5. Why did they protest? Quite simply, young people can't find a job without a way out, and they are poor. The long-term segregation policy with mainland China discriminates against mainland Chinese people and believes that they are all poor people, as whites discriminate against black people.
Hong Kong knows that Hong Kong is bought by Li Ka-shing, and that the Chinese government cannot interfere and support socialism. Everyone has food and housing.
Later, the economic decline of Western society, if you are a European, there should be experience, the US economy has recently grown, but it is also uncomfortable. After the 2008 financial turmoil, it has been declining for a long time.
China is getting better and better. When China gets better, when they find that the Chinese who once earned 200 yuan a month have the same income and even more money, they find that they can’t be like the colonial era. Next, when it came to China, it became a millionaire, went to bed with more girls, and bought more luxurious cosmetics.
So I hope to return to the colonial era and pass violence. (Their slogan is what you saw in this Hong Kong player and the NBA), by robbing mobile phone stores, selling them online, by raising the flags of the United States and the United Kingdom.
I saw Swedes, and I think I should understand why, academically, the Sedgmo syndrome.
Perhaps Westerners believe that the colonial era is very glorious.
"don't you believe that the Hong Kong government and the Hong Kong police, which have always been highly praised" "Why did they protest? Quite simply, young people can't find a job without a way out, and they are poor. The long-term segregation policy with mainland China discriminates against mainland Chinese people and believes that they are all poor people, as whites discriminate against black people."
This is trolling for sure... I can hardly find any other explanations.
Oh, poor man. In fact, it is very simple. You only need to use Google to search for the gap between the rich and the poor in Hong Kong.
Have you been to Hong Kong and China? I am very familiar with it.
On October 10 2019 01:04 Spirit_HUN wrote: When this player signed up for that tournament, he accepted the rules. He simply broke the rules, ended up banning himself.
Blizzard did the right thing. This is a video game company, not a political platform. If you are concerned about human rights in Hong Kong the are other ways, platforms to do that.
You should not force a video game company to be political. There are no political comments in the Olympics, Football, Formula1 etc. as well.
I dont want video games, sports events to be filled with politics. Viewers are there to be entertained, competitors are there to compete, and not to be forced to eat political bs 0-24.
They’re not a political platform, but they do have a clear political position here which is tow whatever line the Chinese authorities want them to tow.
Seems to me it was a pretty good platform for the guy to use really, although the attention it gained was more from Blizzard’s reaction than his actions specifically. Gained a fuckload of traction even US Senators are wading in, doubt he’d have been able to elicit such a response with a tweet.
China and especially the Gulf States use sport as an extension of their soft power, they’ve made it political already, likewise the Cold War saw sporting events like the Olympics as an ideological battleground.
if it is not an political extension of soft power,why some officials of the organization are talking about politics？if not,STOP talking.As an official, you can't blatantly confront the Chinese public opinion while thinking that discrimination against Chinese people, Chinese culture and support separatism and violence.
Why not?
National self-determination is a key principle of geopolitics in the modern era.
Considering a bomb blew in the windows of my house when I was but a babe, I’m quite happy that the United States interceded and helped facilitate a peace here that respected both of the national identities in our wee country.
I would personally like to see more of China and its culture emerge onto the world stage, an old and venerable culture indeed, whose people have accomplished remarkable things in the last few decades especially.
If it’s by trampling on everyone and expecting Westerners to bend to their whims and where criticism is construed as a grievous insult then, no thanks.
When you think so, have you ever asked about the thoughts of ordinary Chinese? It's like I'm here to express the thoughts of an ordinary Chinese. Indeed, I feel sad that I didn't learn English well, because what I lost is not a good paper, but an opportunity to communicate with others.
Not only Americans can define the world. The pioneers of socialism and communism are Germans and French. Formerly President Roosevelt of the United States was also criticized for socialism or communism. But think about Chinese history, the current development of China, and the past workers of Britain.
Some ideological conflicts are unavoidable, especially under the propaganda of some western media, they usually distort the report in order to satisfy their own interests.
China does not do very well in many places, but it does not want to do so. No Chinese wants his country to be like India with the same population. (I do not mean to discriminate. Most Chinese want to live a good life first and guarantee everyone the same rights, wealth, rights and status.)
In China, it is still possible to elect people who have been upgraded from the grassroots level through examinations and votes, while officials at the grassroots level are also elected.
In China, former leaders were even born to poor peasants rather than a billion-dollar owner or equally wealthy political family. Both father and son are presidents.
Western media believe that China is undemocratic and not free, and the Chinese believe that they are free and democratic. This seems to be a disgusting tactic.
I was disappointed with many of the statements, especially those of the distorted Sixth Fourth Movement (my father was one of the participants, but later they built China into the second largest country in the world), and those who believed that the Hong Kong police should not react to any of the protestors'actions.
When commenting, consider that China has 1.4 billion people. This country can not change because of the ideas of more than a dozen people, thousands of people and tens of thousands of people.
The most important thing is to ensure that more than a billion people, like other Westerners, can live with wealth and dignity on this planet.
I wonder what this guy thinks about the hundreds of students that were murdered at Tienanmen Square in 1989.
And I wonder what you think about the Trail of Tears?
The Trail of Tears is universally taught as an abhorrent action by the United States government here in the US. It is not celebrated. Its brutal events are condemned by the people and by society. So now tell us what you think about Tienanmen Square in 1989.
Tienanmen Square in 1989 was also a brutal event and a mistake like many throughout history... And so what? 3 decades or 30 years have passed, 3 leaders have changed, lessons have been learned. You think that Xi Jinping will start killing his own people like in the past? What does Tienanmen Square have to do with the situation now at hand in Hong Kong? After 4 months of violent protesting and rioting, there is 1 person shot (not even dead) after he attacked a policeman. If anything Hong Kong police are handling the situation way better then countries like France or the US...
On October 10 2019 01:21 Wombat_NI wrote: [quote] They’re not a political platform, but they do have a clear political position here which is tow whatever line the Chinese authorities want them to tow.
Seems to me it was a pretty good platform for the guy to use really, although the attention it gained was more from Blizzard’s reaction than his actions specifically. Gained a fuckload of traction even US Senators are wading in, doubt he’d have been able to elicit such a response with a tweet.
China and especially the Gulf States use sport as an extension of their soft power, they’ve made it political already, likewise the Cold War saw sporting events like the Olympics as an ideological battleground.
if it is not an political extension of soft power,why some officials of the organization are talking about politics？if not,STOP talking.As an official, you can't blatantly confront the Chinese public opinion while thinking that discrimination against Chinese people, Chinese culture and support separatism and violence.
Why not?
National self-determination is a key principle of geopolitics in the modern era.
Considering a bomb blew in the windows of my house when I was but a babe, I’m quite happy that the United States interceded and helped facilitate a peace here that respected both of the national identities in our wee country.
I would personally like to see more of China and its culture emerge onto the world stage, an old and venerable culture indeed, whose people have accomplished remarkable things in the last few decades especially.
If it’s by trampling on everyone and expecting Westerners to bend to their whims and where criticism is construed as a grievous insult then, no thanks.
When you think so, have you ever asked about the thoughts of ordinary Chinese?.
I hope you understand that while this is an interesting conversation, your views are inherently skewed by the propaganda you've been fed every day. We know how the Chinese media works (and it's not just China btw. America has much of the same problems, and most of us here do recognise it as such). You have already made made several false statements and made comparisons that does not make sense (Comparing China to England because England has a mock Queen for instance). As such everything you say will be taken with the biggest grain of salt imaginable
I do think it's interesting what the ordinary Chinese thinks, but it truthfully doesn't matter. You don't get to commit human rights violations and consider it ok because "The ordinary Chinese thinks so". Guess who doesn't think it's ok? Hong Kong and its citizens.
Very interesting, wrong comparison I just want to show that some forms of democracy and freedom will change, just as discrimination against blacks is definitely not one of freedom of speech in the United States. Although Martin Luther King was killed. Similarly, China's democracy and freedom are not so much the same as the United States, because the so-called autocracy and dictator seem to be like the Queen of England and the Emperor of Japan.
And when you talk about it, we should think about Hong Kong and its citizens. I am very eager to ask, do you know how many Hong Kong people participated in this Chinese National Day celebration? Including young people, college students, government officials, police, famous stars, and ordinary people. Do you think we should think about Hong Kong people, then do you know how many people in Hong Kong support the police parade? The police in Hong Kong, the government in Hong Kong, Hong Kong, so many condemns the violent protesters, and the ordinary people, shouting at the bbc reporters, this is Hong Kong, China, the taxi driver who supports the law revision, isn't it Hong Kong?
What you see seems to be the collective public opinion of Hong Kong, actually because those people have amplified this reaction through radical methods.
Think about it, if it is really a problem of the society and the Chinese government, the Hong Kong government, the ordinary people of Hong Kong (Is it not ordinary people and the grassroots officials?) Are these attitudes still not showing anything? Think about how good the credibility of the Hong Kong government is, and the same group of people are not trusted now.
The vast majority of protesters on the streets of Hong Kong are college students, young people, and young unemployed people. Is this a normal antibody or a collective carnival of young people, like an American youth who likes to take drugs?
China has experienced two very painful students, and the young people have dominated the political violent protests, almost smashing the entire country. However, these protests did not make more than a billion people ignorant, and the ordinary Chinese who were at a loss knew how to live well.
The Chinese have supported all the legal acts of Hong Kong and have wanted to split China and Hong Kong for many years. There is nothing too fierce.
We support Hong Kong, support democracy, support freedom, and even to some extent, support universal suffrage in Hong Kong.
However, what you have to understand is what is the slogan of Hong Kong's independence and violence? This is what the Hong Kong player and the NBA rocket manager said.
This is also why the Chinese currently call it a terrorist, because terrorists in the Middle East often call themselves freedom fighters.
If Hong Kong, China, is not dominated by the majority of Chinese people and by the majority of Hong Kong people, then who will decide?
Can Texas and California declare independence today and expel all blacks and people from other states？
So，why China give up HK？and Violent protestors demanding the expulsion of mainlanders？
In mainland China, Hong Kong people's bad reputation, sense of geographical superiority and discrimination against mainlanders are the main reasons。
(you can find it in many Hong Kong movies，In mainland China, Hong Kong people's bad reputation, sense of geographical superiority and discrimination against mainlanders are the main reasons (you can find out from many Hong Kong movies, including asking mainlanders if they have seen Apple phones made in China, and mocking the mainland for lack of high-rise power and modern technology, the same thing is still happening to Chinese people in Europe, the United States, etc.)It used to be Korea and Japan.).
You bring up valid points, but what you seem to miss out on is how this all started in the first place. There is currently a Sino-British joint declaration agreement between China and the UK dated back in 1984 and went into effect in 1997 stating that HK will have its own government, is able to pass its own laws, and that their way of life would not change for 50 years. You can read a bit on that agreement here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-British_Joint_Declaration. This means that in this agreement, China agreed that its PRC principles would not be practiced in HK until 2047.
Despite this agreement, in 2014, China proposed a reform to HK's electoral system, a clear infringement of the agreement. Since China agreed that HK could remain autonomous and have authority over their own government, then why is China screening candidates for HK's Chief Executive? This started around 2014 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests), and afterwards the British Foreign Office announced that Chinese officials now treat this declaration as void. You say China support HK's democracy, then why not let the HK'ers elect who they want, instead of screening who they want the HK people to elect? The HK'ers are upset because they were promised 50 years, but China is trying to impose only 22 years into the treaty. Does this mean China's words aren't even worth 50% of what they put on papers?
So flash forward to the current protest, how did it start? Well, China wanted to pass an extradite bill in HK, another infringement of the current agreement. HK'ers did not want this law, which they are within their own rights to deny since China agreed it will not impose, yet China still adamantly demand that this law be passed. If you look over at the 5 demands HK is currently protesting for, they are extremely reasonable given that China started this by breaking their words.
1. Full withdrawal of the extradition bill - Very valid demand, considering China signed an agreement that they will not be imposing their laws in HK until 2047. Last I checked, it's only 2019.
2. Inquiry into police brutality - Also valid, the people would like to investigate police's conduct. The police are meant to protect the people, not beat them up when they are protesting.
3. Retracting the classification of protesters as rioters - This started because China broke its words, so the people were upset and protested. Had China not broke its words, this wouldn't have happened. The people marched because China lied, not because they randomly rioted out of no where. This point can be a case by case basis with some standards since I understand not all protesters are good, some can be destructive, and we should judge them fairly.
4. Amnesty for arrested protesters - Same as point 3.
5. Dual universal suffrage, for both their Legislative and Chief Executive - Again, China signed an agreement that allows the HK'ers to manage their own government. If they are true to their words, let the HK'ers decide how they want their government to be ran.
My main point is that HK originally didn't protest for independence. This was NOT how the protest started. They started because China lied and backed out of their own words only 22 years into a 50 years signed agreement. It is only escalating because instead of admitting they were in the wrong, China cracked down on the HK citizens. HK citizens now are entertaining independence because they realized Mainland China does not keep its word. To use a Starcraft analogy, this is similar to Mengsk, Reynor, and Kerrigan working together, yet Mengsk abandoned Kerrigan on that one planet (forgot the name). When Reynor became rightfully pissed for what Mengsk did and turned on him, Mengsk called Reynor a terrorist. China is pulling a Mengsk right now.
If China is true to its words. Come back in 28 years and let the HK'ers do what they want to do with their government for now.
1. China hopes to sign extradition regulations with Hong Kong (extending criminal offenders because there have been criminals who have committed murder and rape in mainland China and have been cast into Hong Kong. The Chinese government and other countries such as the United States also have extradition regulations, and the Hong Kong government has other regions. The state has extradition regulations). Why is it rejected? This is not because mainland China requires the implementation of laws in Hong Kong, but hopes to sign regulations with Hong Kong. This is actually very strange. It is actually an agreement between a country and a country within a country.
2. I hope that you can read the Sino-British Joint Declaration carefully. He has not given the British any rights after this. You can blame the Chinese government, but because of this, I think other countries are involved. This is still the Beijing government of China and the Hong Kong region. problem.
In addition, the Chinese government's commitment is to keep Hong Kong unchanged for 50 years. I don't know how you understand it. I have two thoughts. One is to continue Hong Kong before the colony in 1997, and the second is to follow the basic law after 1997. Hong Kong. Before 1997, Hong Kong was a colony. Hong Kong people did not even have British nationality. The leaders of Hong Kong were all British whites. They were also British nationals, both the first and the second, including the Hong Kong Constitution, the Sino-British Joint Declaration. During the British colonial period, there was no universal suffrage. I don't know where Hong Kong's universal suffrage comes from. This violates the Constitution of Hong Kong - the Basic Law. In addition, without universal suffrage, it cannot mean that they have no democracy. Hong Kong's politics is closer to the Swiss political system, and each leader does not adopt the Swiss rotation system.
Keeping it for 50 years, isn't it just that there is no universal suffrage? Once the universal suffrage is not a violation of the China Commitment and the Sino-British Joint Declaration, and the Hong Kong Basic Law? Although I think that Hong Kong has been harming itself for 50 years, the development of first-tier cities in China is much better than that of Hong Kong. For me, I have lived in Shanghai for a long time, and Hong Kong is like a rural area. Of course, I am not actually, most of them. This is also true in Europe, and I have a stark contrast to the views of Japanese cities.
3. The Chinese government of Beijing and all Chinese have never opposed liberal democracy and legal protests. However, after the Cultural Revolution, the Chinese were sensitive to the protests because we realized that such collective behavior would often evolve into violence. For example, China’s previous protests, the US bombing of the Yugoslav embassy, and Japan’s activities to commemorate the death of soldiers in World War II. This kind of parade in China has produced extreme violence, as happened in Hong Kong.
If you don't trust the Chinese and don't trust the Chinese government, don't you believe that the Hong Kong government and the Hong Kong police, which have always been highly praised, don't believe it? Don't you believe in Western media? Go look for their evaluation of the Hong Kong police and the Hong Kong government in history.
4. Special criminals are not advisable. Think about the United States, but the country with the highest proportion of prison population. Of course, I don't want China to become the United States.
But think about it. There are many British nationals in the Hong Kong police, white people (maybe I think you still don't believe in the yellow race, but I don't think it is racist). Hong Kong's judicial system, so the judges are British nationality, Australian nationality, 90% of judges are white.
You should trust them, not a group of unemployed people, a group of young people who have taken a poison and drink alcohol and have sex on the roadside (although you call it freedom, but often these are blocked by neutral media).
Opposite to these violent protesters are peaceful protesters who have long since left the protest, and supporters who support the police, support the Hong Kong government, and support the Chinese government.
They are more numerous, but unfortunately they need to work and they do not use violence. So it seems to be weak, and because many of them are older people (you should have heard of Hong Kong's aging), they are not very familiar with the Internet, and the Internet is now a Z-age person (in fact, 1995-2000) Born person).
5. Why did they protest? Quite simply, young people can't find a job without a way out, and they are poor. The long-term segregation policy with mainland China discriminates against mainland Chinese people and believes that they are all poor people, as whites discriminate against black people.
Hong Kong knows that Hong Kong is bought by Li Ka-shing, and that the Chinese government cannot interfere and support socialism. Everyone has food and housing.
Later, the economic decline of Western society, if you are a European, there should be experience, the US economy has recently grown, but it is also uncomfortable. After the 2008 financial turmoil, it has been declining for a long time.
China is getting better and better. When China gets better, when they find that the Chinese who once earned 200 yuan a month have the same income and even more money, they find that they can’t be like the colonial era. Next, when it came to China, it became a millionaire, went to bed with more girls, and bought more luxurious cosmetics.
So I hope to return to the colonial era and pass violence. (Their slogan is what you saw in this Hong Kong player and the NBA), by robbing mobile phone stores, selling them online, by raising the flags of the United States and the United Kingdom.
I saw Swedes, and I think I should understand why, academically, the Sedgmo syndrome.
Perhaps Westerners believe that the colonial era is very glorious.
"don't you believe that the Hong Kong government and the Hong Kong police, which have always been highly praised" "Why did they protest? Quite simply, young people can't find a job without a way out, and they are poor. The long-term segregation policy with mainland China discriminates against mainland Chinese people and believes that they are all poor people, as whites discriminate against black people."
This is trolling for sure... I can hardly find any other explanations.
Hmm, I'd say it's a combination of a narrow, biased and generalizing worldview combined with poor English.
Yes My English is very poor, and it has indeed become an important point of irony. I think there may be some deviations between my remarks and what I want to express. Because I often use Google Translate to modify my English. But it is very interesting when a Chinese person communicates with others in English. Westerners laughed.
And think in reverse. They have no communication with me in Chinese. Because they don't know, even the simplest China.
If they distinguish between Japanese, Chinese and Korean, I am already very happy.
On October 10 2019 03:57 phodacbiet wrote: 1. Full withdrawal of the extradition bill - Very valid demand, considering China signed an agreement that they will not be imposing their laws in HK until 2047. Last I checked, it's only 2019.
huh?
Do you know what extradition is? Extradition is not related to the promise of "not imposing their laws". The USA doesn't impose its laws in Canada. However, if I run a giant telemarketing scam from Canada ripping off thousands of USA senior citizens I can be extradited to the USA by Canada. This doesn't mean the USA is imposing its laws in Canada. Both countries have prison sentences for people committing massive levels of fraud.
You'll need to add more details to this point to show how it is a "very valid demand considering China signed an agreement..."
On October 10 2019 04:49 KT_Elwood wrote: chuchuchu are you a chinese highschooler' AI project ?
不不不，我觉得我比AI高级点。我 No no no I should be more advanced than AI. As for why it is a high school student, I probably didn't figure it out. Is it because of English? Maybe I should translate a bad review for Google.
I think if it refers to speech, I think it should not be. Because you should have never seen a high school student in China.
At least, high school students in the United States are holding signs at the United Nations to protest environmental policies and strikes.
Chinese high school students will go to plant trees, improve the level of greening, and strive to receive the UN's praise for the next time.
I don't know if you are based on that one standard?
On October 10 2019 01:21 Wombat_NI wrote: [quote] They’re not a political platform, but they do have a clear political position here which is tow whatever line the Chinese authorities want them to tow.
Seems to me it was a pretty good platform for the guy to use really, although the attention it gained was more from Blizzard’s reaction than his actions specifically. Gained a fuckload of traction even US Senators are wading in, doubt he’d have been able to elicit such a response with a tweet.
China and especially the Gulf States use sport as an extension of their soft power, they’ve made it political already, likewise the Cold War saw sporting events like the Olympics as an ideological battleground.
if it is not an political extension of soft power,why some officials of the organization are talking about politics？if not,STOP talking.As an official, you can't blatantly confront the Chinese public opinion while thinking that discrimination against Chinese people, Chinese culture and support separatism and violence.
Why not?
National self-determination is a key principle of geopolitics in the modern era.
Considering a bomb blew in the windows of my house when I was but a babe, I’m quite happy that the United States interceded and helped facilitate a peace here that respected both of the national identities in our wee country.
I would personally like to see more of China and its culture emerge onto the world stage, an old and venerable culture indeed, whose people have accomplished remarkable things in the last few decades especially.
If it’s by trampling on everyone and expecting Westerners to bend to their whims and where criticism is construed as a grievous insult then, no thanks.
When you think so, have you ever asked about the thoughts of ordinary Chinese?.
I hope you understand that while this is an interesting conversation, your views are inherently skewed by the propaganda you've been fed every day. We know how the Chinese media works (and it's not just China btw. America has much of the same problems, and most of us here do recognise it as such). You have already made made several false statements and made comparisons that does not make sense (Comparing China to England because England has a mock Queen for instance). As such everything you say will be taken with the biggest grain of salt imaginable
I do think it's interesting what the ordinary Chinese thinks, but it truthfully doesn't matter. You don't get to commit human rights violations and consider it ok because "The ordinary Chinese thinks so". Guess who doesn't think it's ok? Hong Kong and its citizens.
Very interesting, wrong comparison I just want to show that some forms of democracy and freedom will change, just as discrimination against blacks is definitely not one of freedom of speech in the United States. Although Martin Luther King was killed. Similarly, China's democracy and freedom are not so much the same as the United States, because the so-called autocracy and dictator seem to be like the Queen of England and the Emperor of Japan.
And when you talk about it, we should think about Hong Kong and its citizens. I am very eager to ask, do you know how many Hong Kong people participated in this Chinese National Day celebration? Including young people, college students, government officials, police, famous stars, and ordinary people. Do you think we should think about Hong Kong people, then do you know how many people in Hong Kong support the police parade? The police in Hong Kong, the government in Hong Kong, Hong Kong, so many condemns the violent protesters, and the ordinary people, shouting at the bbc reporters, this is Hong Kong, China, the taxi driver who supports the law revision, isn't it Hong Kong?
What you see seems to be the collective public opinion of Hong Kong, actually because those people have amplified this reaction through radical methods.
Think about it, if it is really a problem of the society and the Chinese government, the Hong Kong government, the ordinary people of Hong Kong (Is it not ordinary people and the grassroots officials?) Are these attitudes still not showing anything? Think about how good the credibility of the Hong Kong government is, and the same group of people are not trusted now.
The vast majority of protesters on the streets of Hong Kong are college students, young people, and young unemployed people. Is this a normal antibody or a collective carnival of young people, like an American youth who likes to take drugs?
China has experienced two very painful students, and the young people have dominated the political violent protests, almost smashing the entire country. However, these protests did not make more than a billion people ignorant, and the ordinary Chinese who were at a loss knew how to live well.
The Chinese have supported all the legal acts of Hong Kong and have wanted to split China and Hong Kong for many years. There is nothing too fierce.
We support Hong Kong, support democracy, support freedom, and even to some extent, support universal suffrage in Hong Kong.
However, what you have to understand is what is the slogan of Hong Kong's independence and violence? This is what the Hong Kong player and the NBA rocket manager said.
This is also why the Chinese currently call it a terrorist, because terrorists in the Middle East often call themselves freedom fighters.
If Hong Kong, China, is not dominated by the majority of Chinese people and by the majority of Hong Kong people, then who will decide?
Can Texas and California declare independence today and expel all blacks and people from other states？
So，why China give up HK？and Violent protestors demanding the expulsion of mainlanders？
In mainland China, Hong Kong people's bad reputation, sense of geographical superiority and discrimination against mainlanders are the main reasons。
(you can find it in many Hong Kong movies，In mainland China, Hong Kong people's bad reputation, sense of geographical superiority and discrimination against mainlanders are the main reasons (you can find out from many Hong Kong movies, including asking mainlanders if they have seen Apple phones made in China, and mocking the mainland for lack of high-rise power and modern technology, the same thing is still happening to Chinese people in Europe, the United States, etc.)It used to be Korea and Japan.).
You bring up valid points, but what you seem to miss out on is how this all started in the first place. There is currently a Sino-British joint declaration agreement between China and the UK dated back in 1984 and went into effect in 1997 stating that HK will have its own government, is able to pass its own laws, and that their way of life would not change for 50 years. You can read a bit on that agreement here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-British_Joint_Declaration. This means that in this agreement, China agreed that its PRC principles would not be practiced in HK until 2047.
Despite this agreement, in 2014, China proposed a reform to HK's electoral system, a clear infringement of the agreement. Since China agreed that HK could remain autonomous and have authority over their own government, then why is China screening candidates for HK's Chief Executive? This started around 2014 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests), and afterwards the British Foreign Office announced that Chinese officials now treat this declaration as void. You say China support HK's democracy, then why not let the HK'ers elect who they want, instead of screening who they want the HK people to elect? The HK'ers are upset because they were promised 50 years, but China is trying to impose only 22 years into the treaty. Does this mean China's words aren't even worth 50% of what they put on papers?
So flash forward to the current protest, how did it start? Well, China wanted to pass an extradite bill in HK, another infringement of the current agreement. HK'ers did not want this law, which they are within their own rights to deny since China agreed it will not impose, yet China still adamantly demand that this law be passed. If you look over at the 5 demands HK is currently protesting for, they are extremely reasonable given that China started this by breaking their words.
1. Full withdrawal of the extradition bill - Very valid demand, considering China signed an agreement that they will not be imposing their laws in HK until 2047. Last I checked, it's only 2019.
2. Inquiry into police brutality - Also valid, the people would like to investigate police's conduct. The police are meant to protect the people, not beat them up when they are protesting.
3. Retracting the classification of protesters as rioters - This started because China broke its words, so the people were upset and protested. Had China not broke its words, this wouldn't have happened. The people marched because China lied, not because they randomly rioted out of no where. This point can be a case by case basis with some standards since I understand not all protesters are good, some can be destructive, and we should judge them fairly.
4. Amnesty for arrested protesters - Same as point 3.
5. Dual universal suffrage, for both their Legislative and Chief Executive - Again, China signed an agreement that allows the HK'ers to manage their own government. If they are true to their words, let the HK'ers decide how they want their government to be ran.
My main point is that HK originally didn't protest for independence. This was NOT how the protest started. They started because China lied and backed out of their own words only 22 years into a 50 years signed agreement. It is only escalating because instead of admitting they were in the wrong, China cracked down on the HK citizens. HK citizens now are entertaining independence because they realized Mainland China does not keep its word. To use a Starcraft analogy, this is similar to Mengsk, Reynor, and Kerrigan working together, yet Mengsk abandoned Kerrigan on that one planet (forgot the name). When Reynor became rightfully pissed for what Mengsk did and turned on him, Mengsk called Reynor a terrorist. China is pulling a Mengsk right now.
If China is true to its words. Come back in 28 years and let the HK'ers do what they want to do with their government for now.
1. China hopes to sign extradition regulations with Hong Kong (extending criminal offenders because there have been criminals who have committed murder and rape in mainland China and have been cast into Hong Kong. The Chinese government and other countries such as the United States also have extradition regulations, and the Hong Kong government has other regions. The state has extradition regulations). Why is it rejected? This is not because mainland China requires the implementation of laws in Hong Kong, but hopes to sign regulations with Hong Kong. This is actually very strange. It is actually an agreement between a country and a country within a country.
2. I hope that you can read the Sino-British Joint Declaration carefully. He has not given the British any rights after this. You can blame the Chinese government, but because of this, I think other countries are involved. This is still the Beijing government of China and the Hong Kong region. problem.
In addition, the Chinese government's commitment is to keep Hong Kong unchanged for 50 years. I don't know how you understand it. I have two thoughts. One is to continue Hong Kong before the colony in 1997, and the second is to follow the basic law after 1997. Hong Kong. Before 1997, Hong Kong was a colony. Hong Kong people did not even have British nationality. The leaders of Hong Kong were all British whites. They were also British nationals, both the first and the second, including the Hong Kong Constitution, the Sino-British Joint Declaration. During the British colonial period, there was no universal suffrage. I don't know where Hong Kong's universal suffrage comes from. This violates the Constitution of Hong Kong - the Basic Law. In addition, without universal suffrage, it cannot mean that they have no democracy. Hong Kong's politics is closer to the Swiss political system, and each leader does not adopt the Swiss rotation system.
Keeping it for 50 years, isn't it just that there is no universal suffrage? Once the universal suffrage is not a violation of the China Commitment and the Sino-British Joint Declaration, and the Hong Kong Basic Law? Although I think that Hong Kong has been harming itself for 50 years, the development of first-tier cities in China is much better than that of Hong Kong. For me, I have lived in Shanghai for a long time, and Hong Kong is like a rural area. Of course, I am not actually, most of them. This is also true in Europe, and I have a stark contrast to the views of Japanese cities.
3. The Chinese government of Beijing and all Chinese have never opposed liberal democracy and legal protests. However, after the Cultural Revolution, the Chinese were sensitive to the protests because we realized that such collective behavior would often evolve into violence. For example, China’s previous protests, the US bombing of the Yugoslav embassy, and Japan’s activities to commemorate the death of soldiers in World War II. This kind of parade in China has produced extreme violence, as happened in Hong Kong.
If you don't trust the Chinese and don't trust the Chinese government, don't you believe that the Hong Kong government and the Hong Kong police, which have always been highly praised, don't believe it? Don't you believe in Western media? Go look for their evaluation of the Hong Kong police and the Hong Kong government in history.
4. Special criminals are not advisable. Think about the United States, but the country with the highest proportion of prison population. Of course, I don't want China to become the United States.
But think about it. There are many British nationals in the Hong Kong police, white people (maybe I think you still don't believe in the yellow race, but I don't think it is racist). Hong Kong's judicial system, so the judges are British nationality, Australian nationality, 90% of judges are white.
You should trust them, not a group of unemployed people, a group of young people who have taken a poison and drink alcohol and have sex on the roadside (although you call it freedom, but often these are blocked by neutral media).
Opposite to these violent protesters are peaceful protesters who have long since left the protest, and supporters who support the police, support the Hong Kong government, and support the Chinese government.
They are more numerous, but unfortunately they need to work and they do not use violence. So it seems to be weak, and because many of them are older people (you should have heard of Hong Kong's aging), they are not very familiar with the Internet, and the Internet is now a Z-age person (in fact, 1995-2000) Born person).
5. Why did they protest? Quite simply, young people can't find a job without a way out, and they are poor. The long-term segregation policy with mainland China discriminates against mainland Chinese people and believes that they are all poor people, as whites discriminate against black people.
Hong Kong knows that Hong Kong is bought by Li Ka-shing, and that the Chinese government cannot interfere and support socialism. Everyone has food and housing.
Later, the economic decline of Western society, if you are a European, there should be experience, the US economy has recently grown, but it is also uncomfortable. After the 2008 financial turmoil, it has been declining for a long time.
China is getting better and better. When China gets better, when they find that the Chinese who once earned 200 yuan a month have the same income and even more money, they find that they can’t be like the colonial era. Next, when it came to China, it became a millionaire, went to bed with more girls, and bought more luxurious cosmetics.
So I hope to return to the colonial era and pass violence. (Their slogan is what you saw in this Hong Kong player and the NBA), by robbing mobile phone stores, selling them online, by raising the flags of the United States and the United Kingdom.
I saw Swedes, and I think I should understand why, academically, the Sedgmo syndrome.
Perhaps Westerners believe that the colonial era is very glorious.
"don't you believe that the Hong Kong government and the Hong Kong police, which have always been highly praised" "Why did they protest? Quite simply, young people can't find a job without a way out, and they are poor. The long-term segregation policy with mainland China discriminates against mainland Chinese people and believes that they are all poor people, as whites discriminate against black people."
This is trolling for sure... I can hardly find any other explanations.
Oh, poor man. In fact, it is very simple. You only need to use Google to search for the gap between the rich and the poor in Hong Kong.
Have you been to Hong Kong and China? I am very familiar with it.
Yeah yeah I can find Gini index for every country in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality But why do you think that's the reason of the protest? Where did you find that? Who told you that? You are very familiar with it but you don't know the reason?
On October 10 2019 03:57 phodacbiet wrote: 1. Full withdrawal of the extradition bill - Very valid demand, considering China signed an agreement that they will not be imposing their laws in HK until 2047. Last I checked, it's only 2019.
huh?
Do you know what extradition is? Extradition is not related to the promise of "not imposing their laws". The USA doesn't impose its laws in Canada. However, if I run a giant telemarketing scam from Canada ripping off thousands of USA senior citizens I can be extradited to the USA by Canada. This doesn't mean the USA is imposing its laws in Canada. Both countries have prison sentences for people committing massive levels of fraud.
So why would anyone think that China and Hong Kong’s own extradition regulations will become China’s law in Hong Kong? And it violates the Basic Law (Hong Kong Constitution). Then I think you should look at the following content and news cases. Any situation you are worried about will not happen (that is, the support point of Hong Kong's opposition).
The amendments to the SAR Government clearly stipulate that the offenders who apply to the transfer to the Mainland must be guilty of 37 internationally recognized criminals with a term of seven years or more, and must be approved by the SAR court and the chief executive to implement the handover. . It also stipulates that "eight does not hand over", clearly indicating that the transferred criminal does not involve behavior related to speech, that is, it does not involve acts of news, speech, academics, publications, etc.
The SAR Government proposed to amend the Fugitive Offenders Ordinance. The direct fuse is a murder case that occurred in Taiwan last year.
According to Hong Kong media reports, in early February 2018, a young Hong Kong couple traveled to Taiwan, but it was suspected that there was a dispute in the trip. The man surnamed Chen was suspected of strangling his girlfriend in the hotel and then packing the body in a pink suitcase. Take the subway to the suburbs about 15 kilometers away.
In mid-February, Chen Nan returned to Hong Kong alone. After the woman’s parents found that their daughter’s disappearance, their credit card had a withdrawal record in Taiwan and Hong Kong, so they hurriedly reported the case to Hong Kong and Taiwan police. Chen Nan was arrested by the Hong Kong police and the incident was exposed in mid-March.
Chen Nan confessed to the Hong Kong police the murder and the location of the corpse. According to the confession, the Taiwan police found the body of the Pan girl near the subway station in Tamsui, but some of them have been corrupted into white bones. The Taiwan Land and Forestry Inspection Office filed a request for mutual legal assistance with the Hong Kong Government twice in March and April last year. In July, a letter was sent to Hong Kong to inform the evidence obtained, and Hong Kong would be assisted if it requested mutual legal assistance.
However, Chen Nan has returned to Hong Kong. In the absence of extradition regulations in Hong Kong and Taiwan, the prosecution of Hong Kong cannot sue him for murder and he cannot hand it over to the Taiwan police. If he does not return to Taiwan for trial, his murder will "not be sentenced." At present, the procuratorate of Hong Kong only sues the "theft" of the misappropriation of his girlfriend's credit card after Chen Nan returns to Hong Kong, as well as the "handling of stolen goods" for handling Pan's cell phone, camera and other items.
On October 10 2019 04:19 whitehat511 wrote: You've got to love all the irony of all these Americans and Europeans throwing around accusations that the Chinese government has committed atrocities. You know what they say about people in glass houses.
I dont understand people like you, why would u make an account just to argue about chinese atrocities on TL.net of all places?
On October 10 2019 01:04 Spirit_HUN wrote: When this player signed up for that tournament, he accepted the rules. He simply broke the rules, ended up banning himself.
Blizzard did the right thing. This is a video game company, not a political platform. If you are concerned about human rights in Hong Kong the are other ways, platforms to do that.
You should not force a video game company to be political. There are no political comments in the Olympics, Football, Formula1 etc. as well.
I dont want video games, sports events to be filled with politics. Viewers are there to be entertained, competitors are there to compete, and not to be forced to eat political bs 0-24.
They’re not a political platform, but they do have a clear political position here which is tow whatever line the Chinese authorities want them to tow.
Seems to me it was a pretty good platform for the guy to use really, although the attention it gained was more from Blizzard’s reaction than his actions specifically. Gained a fuckload of traction even US Senators are wading in, doubt he’d have been able to elicit such a response with a tweet.
China and especially the Gulf States use sport as an extension of their soft power, they’ve made it political already, likewise the Cold War saw sporting events like the Olympics as an ideological battleground.
if it is not an political extension of soft power,why some officials of the organization are talking about politics？if not,STOP talking.As an official, you can't blatantly confront the Chinese public opinion while thinking that discrimination against Chinese people, Chinese culture and support separatism and violence.
Why not?
National self-determination is a key principle of geopolitics in the modern era.
Considering a bomb blew in the windows of my house when I was but a babe, I’m quite happy that the United States interceded and helped facilitate a peace here that respected both of the national identities in our wee country.
I would personally like to see more of China and its culture emerge onto the world stage, an old and venerable culture indeed, whose people have accomplished remarkable things in the last few decades especially.
If it’s by trampling on everyone and expecting Westerners to bend to their whims and where criticism is construed as a grievous insult then, no thanks.
When you think so, have you ever asked about the thoughts of ordinary Chinese? It's like I'm here to express the thoughts of an ordinary Chinese. Indeed, I feel sad that I didn't learn English well, because what I lost is not a good paper, but an opportunity to communicate with others.
Not only Americans can define the world. The pioneers of socialism and communism are Germans and French. Formerly President Roosevelt of the United States was also criticized for socialism or communism. But think about Chinese history, the current development of China, and the past workers of Britain.
Some ideological conflicts are unavoidable, especially under the propaganda of some western media, they usually distort the report in order to satisfy their own interests.
China does not do very well in many places, but it does not want to do so. No Chinese wants his country to be like India with the same population. (I do not mean to discriminate. Most Chinese want to live a good life first and guarantee everyone the same rights, wealth, rights and status.)
In China, it is still possible to elect people who have been upgraded from the grassroots level through examinations and votes, while officials at the grassroots level are also elected.
In China, former leaders were even born to poor peasants rather than a billion-dollar owner or equally wealthy political family. Both father and son are presidents.
Western media believe that China is undemocratic and not free, and the Chinese believe that they are free and democratic. This seems to be a disgusting tactic.
I was disappointed with many of the statements, especially those of the distorted Sixth Fourth Movement (my father was one of the participants, but later they built China into the second largest country in the world), and those who believed that the Hong Kong police should not react to any of the protestors'actions.
When commenting, consider that China has 1.4 billion people. This country can not change because of the ideas of more than a dozen people, thousands of people and tens of thousands of people.
The most important thing is to ensure that more than a billion people, like other Westerners, can live with wealth and dignity on this planet.
I wonder what this guy thinks about the hundreds of students that were murdered at Tienanmen Square in 1989.
And I wonder what you think about the Trail of Tears?
The Trail of Tears is universally taught as an abhorrent action by the United States government here in the US. It is not celebrated. Its brutal events are condemned by the people and by society. So now tell us what you think about Tienanmen Square in 1989.
The Chinese often regard 1989 as the same event as the Cultural Revolution. If you preach him, for the Chinese, as if to promote k.k.k, my father used to be one of them, but he told me a lot. The reason why the Chinese do not want to talk about the 1989 and the Cultural Revolution, because this is a disaster and an unspeakable thing. More importantly, they are related to political struggles. It’s as if Americans don’t talk about Lincoln actually not liberating all black slaves. The African Americans actually struggled for human rights until the 1960s-1970s, but today it is no longer a simple assassination of Martin Luther King.
In fact, you can see when I see you talking to you here. China is not what you think. I will still talk to you about this, because Blizzard is often more tolerant, just like StarCraft, or World of Warcraft shows. I will not be arrested.
Similarly, if I know you in reality, maybe I will pretend not to know and be surprised as you mentioned above. In fact, I started to understand 1989, or from China's website (dark network, the Chinese network is very complicated, in fact, you can find what you want, including everything that violates all human laws)
Because we don't want to talk about it, this is not a simple thing. Just like we don't talk about conspiracy theories on the moon or aliens in the 51st district. We talked about Kennedy flying more to the moon and today's nasa, not to him and Marilyn Monroe, as well as Cuba, and the conspiracy theories he was killed. (Actually, these conspiracy theories in the United States were very popular in China. People refused to believe that landing on the moon was true. People also believed that Kennedy died of Marilyn Monroe and family curses, and there were really aliens in District 51.)
People in the US talk about our historical figures' short-comings all the time. They are taught in schools. They are not something we have to go seek out on our own on a website. My US History teacher brought up the hypocrisy of Thomas Jefferson writing "The right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" while still owning slaves many times. We were taught about Lincoln's actual beliefs and how what he did did not truly liberate everyone and bring us on an even playing field. The struggles of the Civil Rights movement are talked about in-depth in schools. The atrocities of our government are openly taught and condemned.
You just grouped Tienanmen Square in with conspiracy theories and that's all that I think really needs to be said on that, but I will say more. Your own government murdered its own people. It drove students over with tanks without issue. Students that were peacefully protesting. Your government murdered people. It happened. It is not a conspiracy and it does not deserve to be treated like some outlandish concept. The fact you are so afraid to talk about awful things your government has done speaks volumes.
On October 10 2019 03:57 phodacbiet wrote: 1. Full withdrawal of the extradition bill - Very valid demand, considering China signed an agreement that they will not be imposing their laws in HK until 2047. Last I checked, it's only 2019.
huh?
Do you know what extradition is? Extradition is not related to the promise of "not imposing their laws". The USA doesn't impose its laws in Canada. However, if I run a giant telemarketing scam from Canada ripping off thousands of USA senior citizens I can be extradited to the USA by Canada. This doesn't mean the USA is imposing its laws in Canada. Both countries have prison sentences for people committing massive levels of fraud.
So why would anyone think that China and Hong Kong’s own extradition regulations will become China’s law in Hong Kong? And it violates the Basic Law (Hong Kong Constitution). Then I think you should look at the following content and news cases. Any situation you are worried about will not happen (that is, the support point of Hong Kong's opposition).
The amendments to the SAR Government clearly stipulate that the offenders who apply to the transfer to the Mainland must be guilty of 37 internationally recognized criminals with a term of seven years or more, and must be approved by the SAR court and the chief executive to implement the handover. . It also stipulates that "eight does not hand over", clearly indicating that the transferred criminal does not involve behavior related to speech, that is, it does not involve acts of news, speech, academics, publications, etc.
The SAR Government proposed to amend the Fugitive Offenders Ordinance. The direct fuse is a murder case that occurred in Taiwan last year.
According to Hong Kong media reports, in early February 2018, a young Hong Kong couple traveled to Taiwan, but it was suspected that there was a dispute in the trip. The man surnamed Chen was suspected of strangling his girlfriend in the hotel and then packing the body in a pink suitcase. Take the subway to the suburbs about 15 kilometers away.
In mid-February, Chen Nan returned to Hong Kong alone. After the woman’s parents found that their daughter’s disappearance, their credit card had a withdrawal record in Taiwan and Hong Kong, so they hurriedly reported the case to Hong Kong and Taiwan police. Chen Nan was arrested by the Hong Kong police and the incident was exposed in mid-March.
Chen Nan confessed to the Hong Kong police the murder and the location of the corpse. According to the confession, the Taiwan police found the body of the Pan girl near the subway station in Tamsui, but some of them have been corrupted into white bones. The Taiwan Land and Forestry Inspection Office filed a request for mutual legal assistance with the Hong Kong Government twice in March and April last year. In July, a letter was sent to Hong Kong to inform the evidence obtained, and Hong Kong would be assisted if it requested mutual legal assistance.
However, Chen Nan has returned to Hong Kong. In the absence of extradition regulations in Hong Kong and Taiwan, the prosecution of Hong Kong cannot sue him for murder and he cannot hand it over to the Taiwan police. If he does not return to Taiwan for trial, his murder will "not be sentenced." At present, the procuratorate of Hong Kong only sues the "theft" of the misappropriation of his girlfriend's credit card after Chen Nan returns to Hong Kong, as well as the "handling of stolen goods" for handling Pan's cell phone, camera and other items.
"Any situation you are worried about will not happen " Sorry it's already happened, and you will find it if you know the causes of the 2019 Hong Kong protests.
On October 10 2019 01:04 Spirit_HUN wrote: When this player signed up for that tournament, he accepted the rules. He simply broke the rules, ended up banning himself.
Blizzard did the right thing. This is a video game company, not a political platform. If you are concerned about human rights in Hong Kong the are other ways, platforms to do that.
You should not force a video game company to be political. There are no political comments in the Olympics, Football, Formula1 etc. as well.
I dont want video games, sports events to be filled with politics. Viewers are there to be entertained, competitors are there to compete, and not to be forced to eat political bs 0-24.
They’re not a political platform, but they do have a clear political position here which is tow whatever line the Chinese authorities want them to tow.
Seems to me it was a pretty good platform for the guy to use really, although the attention it gained was more from Blizzard’s reaction than his actions specifically. Gained a fuckload of traction even US Senators are wading in, doubt he’d have been able to elicit such a response with a tweet.
China and especially the Gulf States use sport as an extension of their soft power, they’ve made it political already, likewise the Cold War saw sporting events like the Olympics as an ideological battleground.
if it is not an political extension of soft power,why some officials of the organization are talking about politics？if not,STOP talking.As an official, you can't blatantly confront the Chinese public opinion while thinking that discrimination against Chinese people, Chinese culture and support separatism and violence.
Why not?
National self-determination is a key principle of geopolitics in the modern era.
Considering a bomb blew in the windows of my house when I was but a babe, I’m quite happy that the United States interceded and helped facilitate a peace here that respected both of the national identities in our wee country.
I would personally like to see more of China and its culture emerge onto the world stage, an old and venerable culture indeed, whose people have accomplished remarkable things in the last few decades especially.
If it’s by trampling on everyone and expecting Westerners to bend to their whims and where criticism is construed as a grievous insult then, no thanks.
When you think so, have you ever asked about the thoughts of ordinary Chinese? It's like I'm here to express the thoughts of an ordinary Chinese. Indeed, I feel sad that I didn't learn English well, because what I lost is not a good paper, but an opportunity to communicate with others.
Not only Americans can define the world. The pioneers of socialism and communism are Germans and French. Formerly President Roosevelt of the United States was also criticized for socialism or communism. But think about Chinese history, the current development of China, and the past workers of Britain.
Some ideological conflicts are unavoidable, especially under the propaganda of some western media, they usually distort the report in order to satisfy their own interests.
China does not do very well in many places, but it does not want to do so. No Chinese wants his country to be like India with the same population. (I do not mean to discriminate. Most Chinese want to live a good life first and guarantee everyone the same rights, wealth, rights and status.)
In China, it is still possible to elect people who have been upgraded from the grassroots level through examinations and votes, while officials at the grassroots level are also elected.
In China, former leaders were even born to poor peasants rather than a billion-dollar owner or equally wealthy political family. Both father and son are presidents.
Western media believe that China is undemocratic and not free, and the Chinese believe that they are free and democratic. This seems to be a disgusting tactic.
I was disappointed with many of the statements, especially those of the distorted Sixth Fourth Movement (my father was one of the participants, but later they built China into the second largest country in the world), and those who believed that the Hong Kong police should not react to any of the protestors'actions.
When commenting, consider that China has 1.4 billion people. This country can not change because of the ideas of more than a dozen people, thousands of people and tens of thousands of people.
The most important thing is to ensure that more than a billion people, like other Westerners, can live with wealth and dignity on this planet.
I wonder what this guy thinks about the hundreds of students that were murdered at Tienanmen Square in 1989.
And I wonder what you think about the Trail of Tears?
The Trail of Tears is universally taught as an abhorrent action by the United States government here in the US. It is not celebrated. Its brutal events are condemned by the people and by society. So now tell us what you think about Tienanmen Square in 1989.
Tienanmen Square in 1989 was also a brutal event and a mistake like many throughout history... And so what? 3 decades or 30 years have passed, 3 leaders have changed, lessons have been learned. You think that Xi Jinping will start killing his own people like in the past? What does Tienanmen Square have to do with the situation now at hand in Hong Kong? After 4 months of violent protesting and rioting, there is 1 person shot (not even dead) after he attacked a policeman. If anything Hong Kong police are handling the situation way better then countries like France or the US...
The point is not that Tienamen Square is something that we see the like of in a contemporary sense, but to ascertain what Chinese people themselves know/think about it, as an illustrative example of the media censorship that occurs.
On October 10 2019 01:04 Spirit_HUN wrote: When this player signed up for that tournament, he accepted the rules. He simply broke the rules, ended up banning himself.
Blizzard did the right thing. This is a video game company, not a political platform. If you are concerned about human rights in Hong Kong the are other ways, platforms to do that.
You should not force a video game company to be political. There are no political comments in the Olympics, Football, Formula1 etc. as well.
I dont want video games, sports events to be filled with politics. Viewers are there to be entertained, competitors are there to compete, and not to be forced to eat political bs 0-24.
They’re not a political platform, but they do have a clear political position here which is tow whatever line the Chinese authorities want them to tow.
Seems to me it was a pretty good platform for the guy to use really, although the attention it gained was more from Blizzard’s reaction than his actions specifically. Gained a fuckload of traction even US Senators are wading in, doubt he’d have been able to elicit such a response with a tweet.
China and especially the Gulf States use sport as an extension of their soft power, they’ve made it political already, likewise the Cold War saw sporting events like the Olympics as an ideological battleground.
if it is not an political extension of soft power,why some officials of the organization are talking about politics？if not,STOP talking.As an official, you can't blatantly confront the Chinese public opinion while thinking that discrimination against Chinese people, Chinese culture and support separatism and violence.
Why not?
National self-determination is a key principle of geopolitics in the modern era.
Considering a bomb blew in the windows of my house when I was but a babe, I’m quite happy that the United States interceded and helped facilitate a peace here that respected both of the national identities in our wee country.
I would personally like to see more of China and its culture emerge onto the world stage, an old and venerable culture indeed, whose people have accomplished remarkable things in the last few decades especially.
If it’s by trampling on everyone and expecting Westerners to bend to their whims and where criticism is construed as a grievous insult then, no thanks.
When you think so, have you ever asked about the thoughts of ordinary Chinese? It's like I'm here to express the thoughts of an ordinary Chinese. Indeed, I feel sad that I didn't learn English well, because what I lost is not a good paper, but an opportunity to communicate with others.
Not only Americans can define the world. The pioneers of socialism and communism are Germans and French. Formerly President Roosevelt of the United States was also criticized for socialism or communism. But think about Chinese history, the current development of China, and the past workers of Britain.
Some ideological conflicts are unavoidable, especially under the propaganda of some western media, they usually distort the report in order to satisfy their own interests.
China does not do very well in many places, but it does not want to do so. No Chinese wants his country to be like India with the same population. (I do not mean to discriminate. Most Chinese want to live a good life first and guarantee everyone the same rights, wealth, rights and status.)
In China, it is still possible to elect people who have been upgraded from the grassroots level through examinations and votes, while officials at the grassroots level are also elected.
In China, former leaders were even born to poor peasants rather than a billion-dollar owner or equally wealthy political family. Both father and son are presidents.
Western media believe that China is undemocratic and not free, and the Chinese believe that they are free and democratic. This seems to be a disgusting tactic.
I was disappointed with many of the statements, especially those of the distorted Sixth Fourth Movement (my father was one of the participants, but later they built China into the second largest country in the world), and those who believed that the Hong Kong police should not react to any of the protestors'actions.
When commenting, consider that China has 1.4 billion people. This country can not change because of the ideas of more than a dozen people, thousands of people and tens of thousands of people.
The most important thing is to ensure that more than a billion people, like other Westerners, can live with wealth and dignity on this planet.
I wonder what this guy thinks about the hundreds of students that were murdered at Tienanmen Square in 1989.
And I wonder what you think about the Trail of Tears?
The Trail of Tears is universally taught as an abhorrent action by the United States government here in the US. It is not celebrated. Its brutal events are condemned by the people and by society. So now tell us what you think about Tienanmen Square in 1989.
Tienanmen Square in 1989 was also a brutal event and a mistake like many throughout history... And so what? 3 decades or 30 years have passed, 3 leaders have changed, lessons have been learned. You think that Xi Jinping will start killing his own people like in the past? What does Tienanmen Square have to do with the situation now at hand in Hong Kong? After 4 months of violent protesting and rioting, there is 1 person shot (not even dead) after he attacked a policeman. If anything Hong Kong police are handling the situation way better then countries like France or the US...
The reason I and many others bring it up is the difference in how a country's atrocities are handled by the country itself. And yes, many people fear that China will escalate to lethal force if the protests continue. And 4 months of violent protests? That's completely disingenuous and you know it. The protests were completely peaceful on the protesters' side of things for a very long time. They only recently became violent on both sides of the protest.
On October 10 2019 04:19 whitehat511 wrote: You've got to love all the irony of all these Americans and Europeans throwing around accusations that the Chinese government has committed atrocities. You know what they say about people in glass houses.
I dont understand people like you, why would u make an account just to argue about chinese atrocities on TL.net of all places?
Maybe it is his/her job to do so. It is not the only account created only for arguing in this thread.
if it is not an political extension of soft power,why some officials of the organization are talking about politics？if not,STOP talking.As an official, you can't blatantly confront the Chinese public opinion while thinking that discrimination against Chinese people, Chinese culture and support separatism and violence.
Why not?
National self-determination is a key principle of geopolitics in the modern era.
Considering a bomb blew in the windows of my house when I was but a babe, I’m quite happy that the United States interceded and helped facilitate a peace here that respected both of the national identities in our wee country.
I would personally like to see more of China and its culture emerge onto the world stage, an old and venerable culture indeed, whose people have accomplished remarkable things in the last few decades especially.
If it’s by trampling on everyone and expecting Westerners to bend to their whims and where criticism is construed as a grievous insult then, no thanks.
When you think so, have you ever asked about the thoughts of ordinary Chinese?.
I hope you understand that while this is an interesting conversation, your views are inherently skewed by the propaganda you've been fed every day. We know how the Chinese media works (and it's not just China btw. America has much of the same problems, and most of us here do recognise it as such). You have already made made several false statements and made comparisons that does not make sense (Comparing China to England because England has a mock Queen for instance). As such everything you say will be taken with the biggest grain of salt imaginable
I do think it's interesting what the ordinary Chinese thinks, but it truthfully doesn't matter. You don't get to commit human rights violations and consider it ok because "The ordinary Chinese thinks so". Guess who doesn't think it's ok? Hong Kong and its citizens.
Very interesting, wrong comparison I just want to show that some forms of democracy and freedom will change, just as discrimination against blacks is definitely not one of freedom of speech in the United States. Although Martin Luther King was killed. Similarly, China's democracy and freedom are not so much the same as the United States, because the so-called autocracy and dictator seem to be like the Queen of England and the Emperor of Japan.
And when you talk about it, we should think about Hong Kong and its citizens. I am very eager to ask, do you know how many Hong Kong people participated in this Chinese National Day celebration? Including young people, college students, government officials, police, famous stars, and ordinary people. Do you think we should think about Hong Kong people, then do you know how many people in Hong Kong support the police parade? The police in Hong Kong, the government in Hong Kong, Hong Kong, so many condemns the violent protesters, and the ordinary people, shouting at the bbc reporters, this is Hong Kong, China, the taxi driver who supports the law revision, isn't it Hong Kong?
What you see seems to be the collective public opinion of Hong Kong, actually because those people have amplified this reaction through radical methods.
Think about it, if it is really a problem of the society and the Chinese government, the Hong Kong government, the ordinary people of Hong Kong (Is it not ordinary people and the grassroots officials?) Are these attitudes still not showing anything? Think about how good the credibility of the Hong Kong government is, and the same group of people are not trusted now.
The vast majority of protesters on the streets of Hong Kong are college students, young people, and young unemployed people. Is this a normal antibody or a collective carnival of young people, like an American youth who likes to take drugs?
China has experienced two very painful students, and the young people have dominated the political violent protests, almost smashing the entire country. However, these protests did not make more than a billion people ignorant, and the ordinary Chinese who were at a loss knew how to live well.
The Chinese have supported all the legal acts of Hong Kong and have wanted to split China and Hong Kong for many years. There is nothing too fierce.
We support Hong Kong, support democracy, support freedom, and even to some extent, support universal suffrage in Hong Kong.
However, what you have to understand is what is the slogan of Hong Kong's independence and violence? This is what the Hong Kong player and the NBA rocket manager said.
This is also why the Chinese currently call it a terrorist, because terrorists in the Middle East often call themselves freedom fighters.
If Hong Kong, China, is not dominated by the majority of Chinese people and by the majority of Hong Kong people, then who will decide?
Can Texas and California declare independence today and expel all blacks and people from other states？
So，why China give up HK？and Violent protestors demanding the expulsion of mainlanders？
In mainland China, Hong Kong people's bad reputation, sense of geographical superiority and discrimination against mainlanders are the main reasons。
(you can find it in many Hong Kong movies，In mainland China, Hong Kong people's bad reputation, sense of geographical superiority and discrimination against mainlanders are the main reasons (you can find out from many Hong Kong movies, including asking mainlanders if they have seen Apple phones made in China, and mocking the mainland for lack of high-rise power and modern technology, the same thing is still happening to Chinese people in Europe, the United States, etc.)It used to be Korea and Japan.).
You bring up valid points, but what you seem to miss out on is how this all started in the first place. There is currently a Sino-British joint declaration agreement between China and the UK dated back in 1984 and went into effect in 1997 stating that HK will have its own government, is able to pass its own laws, and that their way of life would not change for 50 years. You can read a bit on that agreement here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-British_Joint_Declaration. This means that in this agreement, China agreed that its PRC principles would not be practiced in HK until 2047.
Despite this agreement, in 2014, China proposed a reform to HK's electoral system, a clear infringement of the agreement. Since China agreed that HK could remain autonomous and have authority over their own government, then why is China screening candidates for HK's Chief Executive? This started around 2014 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests), and afterwards the British Foreign Office announced that Chinese officials now treat this declaration as void. You say China support HK's democracy, then why not let the HK'ers elect who they want, instead of screening who they want the HK people to elect? The HK'ers are upset because they were promised 50 years, but China is trying to impose only 22 years into the treaty. Does this mean China's words aren't even worth 50% of what they put on papers?
So flash forward to the current protest, how did it start? Well, China wanted to pass an extradite bill in HK, another infringement of the current agreement. HK'ers did not want this law, which they are within their own rights to deny since China agreed it will not impose, yet China still adamantly demand that this law be passed. If you look over at the 5 demands HK is currently protesting for, they are extremely reasonable given that China started this by breaking their words.
1. Full withdrawal of the extradition bill - Very valid demand, considering China signed an agreement that they will not be imposing their laws in HK until 2047. Last I checked, it's only 2019.
2. Inquiry into police brutality - Also valid, the people would like to investigate police's conduct. The police are meant to protect the people, not beat them up when they are protesting.
3. Retracting the classification of protesters as rioters - This started because China broke its words, so the people were upset and protested. Had China not broke its words, this wouldn't have happened. The people marched because China lied, not because they randomly rioted out of no where. This point can be a case by case basis with some standards since I understand not all protesters are good, some can be destructive, and we should judge them fairly.
4. Amnesty for arrested protesters - Same as point 3.
5. Dual universal suffrage, for both their Legislative and Chief Executive - Again, China signed an agreement that allows the HK'ers to manage their own government. If they are true to their words, let the HK'ers decide how they want their government to be ran.
My main point is that HK originally didn't protest for independence. This was NOT how the protest started. They started because China lied and backed out of their own words only 22 years into a 50 years signed agreement. It is only escalating because instead of admitting they were in the wrong, China cracked down on the HK citizens. HK citizens now are entertaining independence because they realized Mainland China does not keep its word. To use a Starcraft analogy, this is similar to Mengsk, Reynor, and Kerrigan working together, yet Mengsk abandoned Kerrigan on that one planet (forgot the name). When Reynor became rightfully pissed for what Mengsk did and turned on him, Mengsk called Reynor a terrorist. China is pulling a Mengsk right now.
If China is true to its words. Come back in 28 years and let the HK'ers do what they want to do with their government for now.
1. China hopes to sign extradition regulations with Hong Kong (extending criminal offenders because there have been criminals who have committed murder and rape in mainland China and have been cast into Hong Kong. The Chinese government and other countries such as the United States also have extradition regulations, and the Hong Kong government has other regions. The state has extradition regulations). Why is it rejected? This is not because mainland China requires the implementation of laws in Hong Kong, but hopes to sign regulations with Hong Kong. This is actually very strange. It is actually an agreement between a country and a country within a country.
2. I hope that you can read the Sino-British Joint Declaration carefully. He has not given the British any rights after this. You can blame the Chinese government, but because of this, I think other countries are involved. This is still the Beijing government of China and the Hong Kong region. problem.
In addition, the Chinese government's commitment is to keep Hong Kong unchanged for 50 years. I don't know how you understand it. I have two thoughts. One is to continue Hong Kong before the colony in 1997, and the second is to follow the basic law after 1997. Hong Kong. Before 1997, Hong Kong was a colony. Hong Kong people did not even have British nationality. The leaders of Hong Kong were all British whites. They were also British nationals, both the first and the second, including the Hong Kong Constitution, the Sino-British Joint Declaration. During the British colonial period, there was no universal suffrage. I don't know where Hong Kong's universal suffrage comes from. This violates the Constitution of Hong Kong - the Basic Law. In addition, without universal suffrage, it cannot mean that they have no democracy. Hong Kong's politics is closer to the Swiss political system, and each leader does not adopt the Swiss rotation system.
Keeping it for 50 years, isn't it just that there is no universal suffrage? Once the universal suffrage is not a violation of the China Commitment and the Sino-British Joint Declaration, and the Hong Kong Basic Law? Although I think that Hong Kong has been harming itself for 50 years, the development of first-tier cities in China is much better than that of Hong Kong. For me, I have lived in Shanghai for a long time, and Hong Kong is like a rural area. Of course, I am not actually, most of them. This is also true in Europe, and I have a stark contrast to the views of Japanese cities.
3. The Chinese government of Beijing and all Chinese have never opposed liberal democracy and legal protests. However, after the Cultural Revolution, the Chinese were sensitive to the protests because we realized that such collective behavior would often evolve into violence. For example, China’s previous protests, the US bombing of the Yugoslav embassy, and Japan’s activities to commemorate the death of soldiers in World War II. This kind of parade in China has produced extreme violence, as happened in Hong Kong.
If you don't trust the Chinese and don't trust the Chinese government, don't you believe that the Hong Kong government and the Hong Kong police, which have always been highly praised, don't believe it? Don't you believe in Western media? Go look for their evaluation of the Hong Kong police and the Hong Kong government in history.
4. Special criminals are not advisable. Think about the United States, but the country with the highest proportion of prison population. Of course, I don't want China to become the United States.
But think about it. There are many British nationals in the Hong Kong police, white people (maybe I think you still don't believe in the yellow race, but I don't think it is racist). Hong Kong's judicial system, so the judges are British nationality, Australian nationality, 90% of judges are white.
You should trust them, not a group of unemployed people, a group of young people who have taken a poison and drink alcohol and have sex on the roadside (although you call it freedom, but often these are blocked by neutral media).
Opposite to these violent protesters are peaceful protesters who have long since left the protest, and supporters who support the police, support the Hong Kong government, and support the Chinese government.
They are more numerous, but unfortunately they need to work and they do not use violence. So it seems to be weak, and because many of them are older people (you should have heard of Hong Kong's aging), they are not very familiar with the Internet, and the Internet is now a Z-age person (in fact, 1995-2000) Born person).
5. Why did they protest? Quite simply, young people can't find a job without a way out, and they are poor. The long-term segregation policy with mainland China discriminates against mainland Chinese people and believes that they are all poor people, as whites discriminate against black people.
Hong Kong knows that Hong Kong is bought by Li Ka-shing, and that the Chinese government cannot interfere and support socialism. Everyone has food and housing.
Later, the economic decline of Western society, if you are a European, there should be experience, the US economy has recently grown, but it is also uncomfortable. After the 2008 financial turmoil, it has been declining for a long time.
China is getting better and better. When China gets better, when they find that the Chinese who once earned 200 yuan a month have the same income and even more money, they find that they can’t be like the colonial era. Next, when it came to China, it became a millionaire, went to bed with more girls, and bought more luxurious cosmetics.
So I hope to return to the colonial era and pass violence. (Their slogan is what you saw in this Hong Kong player and the NBA), by robbing mobile phone stores, selling them online, by raising the flags of the United States and the United Kingdom.
I saw Swedes, and I think I should understand why, academically, the Sedgmo syndrome.
Perhaps Westerners believe that the colonial era is very glorious.
"don't you believe that the Hong Kong government and the Hong Kong police, which have always been highly praised" "Why did they protest? Quite simply, young people can't find a job without a way out, and they are poor. The long-term segregation policy with mainland China discriminates against mainland Chinese people and believes that they are all poor people, as whites discriminate against black people."
This is trolling for sure... I can hardly find any other explanations.
Oh, poor man. In fact, it is very simple. You only need to use Google to search for the gap between the rich and the poor in Hong Kong.
Have you been to Hong Kong and China? I am very familiar with it.
Yeah yeah I can find Gini index for every country in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality But why do you think that's the reason of the protest? Where did you find that? Who told you that? You are very familiar with it but you don't know the reason?
After removing the tax and welfare transfers, Hong Kong’s Gini index was as high as 0.54. If you have been to Chicago and New York, think about where the tramp is, social security (Hong Kong people want to thank the Hong Kong police for their efforts)
In addition, you should check that the top ten billionaires in Hong Kong account for Hong Kong's GDP (more than 35%). The disparity between the rich and the poor in Hong Kong has been criticized by the United Nations. If you can visit Hong Kong's own website
You will find that Hong Kong officially announced that there are 1.3 million poor people in 7.6 million people in Hong Kong. Perhaps you should use Google to search for the poor in Hong Kong directly, or go to Hong Kong in person. Take a look at the slums in the bustling city. (The slums in mainland China have long since disappeared)
Hong Kong is an area without a universal retirement protection system. It is well developed, but his university enrollment rate is only 20%. This is the famous ten universities in Hong Kong.
Hong Kong is a developed region and an unbalanced region. You should probably look at the encyclopedia about Li Ka-shing and see his property. We call him Lee half HK (Lee half HK)
On October 10 2019 01:04 Spirit_HUN wrote: When this player signed up for that tournament, he accepted the rules. He simply broke the rules, ended up banning himself.
Blizzard did the right thing. This is a video game company, not a political platform. If you are concerned about human rights in Hong Kong the are other ways, platforms to do that.
You should not force a video game company to be political. There are no political comments in the Olympics, Football, Formula1 etc. as well.
I dont want video games, sports events to be filled with politics. Viewers are there to be entertained, competitors are there to compete, and not to be forced to eat political bs 0-24.
They’re not a political platform, but they do have a clear political position here which is tow whatever line the Chinese authorities want them to tow.
Seems to me it was a pretty good platform for the guy to use really, although the attention it gained was more from Blizzard’s reaction than his actions specifically. Gained a fuckload of traction even US Senators are wading in, doubt he’d have been able to elicit such a response with a tweet.
China and especially the Gulf States use sport as an extension of their soft power, they’ve made it political already, likewise the Cold War saw sporting events like the Olympics as an ideological battleground.
if it is not an political extension of soft power,why some officials of the organization are talking about politics？if not,STOP talking.As an official, you can't blatantly confront the Chinese public opinion while thinking that discrimination against Chinese people, Chinese culture and support separatism and violence.
Why not?
National self-determination is a key principle of geopolitics in the modern era.
Considering a bomb blew in the windows of my house when I was but a babe, I’m quite happy that the United States interceded and helped facilitate a peace here that respected both of the national identities in our wee country.
I would personally like to see more of China and its culture emerge onto the world stage, an old and venerable culture indeed, whose people have accomplished remarkable things in the last few decades especially.
If it’s by trampling on everyone and expecting Westerners to bend to their whims and where criticism is construed as a grievous insult then, no thanks.
When you think so, have you ever asked about the thoughts of ordinary Chinese?.
I hope you understand that while this is an interesting conversation, your views are inherently skewed by the propaganda you've been fed every day. We know how the Chinese media works (and it's not just China btw. America has much of the same problems, and most of us here do recognise it as such). You have already made made several false statements and made comparisons that does not make sense (Comparing China to England because England has a mock Queen for instance). As such everything you say will be taken with the biggest grain of salt imaginable
I do think it's interesting what the ordinary Chinese thinks, but it truthfully doesn't matter. You don't get to commit human rights violations and consider it ok because "The ordinary Chinese thinks so". Guess who doesn't think it's ok? Hong Kong and its citizens.
Very interesting, wrong comparison I just want to show that some forms of democracy and freedom will change, just as discrimination against blacks is definitely not one of freedom of speech in the United States. Although Martin Luther King was killed. Similarly, China's democracy and freedom are not so much the same as the United States, because the so-called autocracy and dictator seem to be like the Queen of England and the Emperor of Japan.
And when you talk about it, we should think about Hong Kong and its citizens. I am very eager to ask, do you know how many Hong Kong people participated in this Chinese National Day celebration? Including young people, college students, government officials, police, famous stars, and ordinary people. Do you think we should think about Hong Kong people, then do you know how many people in Hong Kong support the police parade? The police in Hong Kong, the government in Hong Kong, Hong Kong, so many condemns the violent protesters, and the ordinary people, shouting at the bbc reporters, this is Hong Kong, China, the taxi driver who supports the law revision, isn't it Hong Kong?
What you see seems to be the collective public opinion of Hong Kong, actually because those people have amplified this reaction through radical methods.
Think about it, if it is really a problem of the society and the Chinese government, the Hong Kong government, the ordinary people of Hong Kong (Is it not ordinary people and the grassroots officials?) Are these attitudes still not showing anything? Think about how good the credibility of the Hong Kong government is, and the same group of people are not trusted now.
The vast majority of protesters on the streets of Hong Kong are college students, young people, and young unemployed people. Is this a normal antibody or a collective carnival of young people, like an American youth who likes to take drugs?
China has experienced two very painful students, and the young people have dominated the political violent protests, almost smashing the entire country. However, these protests did not make more than a billion people ignorant, and the ordinary Chinese who were at a loss knew how to live well.
The Chinese have supported all the legal acts of Hong Kong and have wanted to split China and Hong Kong for many years. There is nothing too fierce.
We support Hong Kong, support democracy, support freedom, and even to some extent, support universal suffrage in Hong Kong.
However, what you have to understand is what is the slogan of Hong Kong's independence and violence? This is what the Hong Kong player and the NBA rocket manager said.
This is also why the Chinese currently call it a terrorist, because terrorists in the Middle East often call themselves freedom fighters.
If Hong Kong, China, is not dominated by the majority of Chinese people and by the majority of Hong Kong people, then who will decide?
Can Texas and California declare independence today and expel all blacks and people from other states？
So，why China give up HK？and Violent protestors demanding the expulsion of mainlanders？
In mainland China, Hong Kong people's bad reputation, sense of geographical superiority and discrimination against mainlanders are the main reasons。
(you can find it in many Hong Kong movies，In mainland China, Hong Kong people's bad reputation, sense of geographical superiority and discrimination against mainlanders are the main reasons (you can find out from many Hong Kong movies, including asking mainlanders if they have seen Apple phones made in China, and mocking the mainland for lack of high-rise power and modern technology, the same thing is still happening to Chinese people in Europe, the United States, etc.)It used to be Korea and Japan.).
You bring up valid points, but what you seem to miss out on is how this all started in the first place. There is currently a Sino-British joint declaration agreement between China and the UK dated back in 1984 and went into effect in 1997 stating that HK will have its own government, is able to pass its own laws, and that their way of life would not change for 50 years. You can read a bit on that agreement here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-British_Joint_Declaration. This means that in this agreement, China agreed that its PRC principles would not be practiced in HK until 2047.
Despite this agreement, in 2014, China proposed a reform to HK's electoral system, a clear infringement of the agreement. Since China agreed that HK could remain autonomous and have authority over their own government, then why is China screening candidates for HK's Chief Executive? This started around 2014 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests), and afterwards the British Foreign Office announced that Chinese officials now treat this declaration as void. You say China support HK's democracy, then why not let the HK'ers elect who they want, instead of screening who they want the HK people to elect? The HK'ers are upset because they were promised 50 years, but China is trying to impose only 22 years into the treaty. Does this mean China's words aren't even worth 50% of what they put on papers?
So flash forward to the current protest, how did it start? Well, China wanted to pass an extradite bill in HK, another infringement of the current agreement. HK'ers did not want this law, which they are within their own rights to deny since China agreed it will not impose, yet China still adamantly demand that this law be passed. If you look over at the 5 demands HK is currently protesting for, they are extremely reasonable given that China started this by breaking their words.
1. Full withdrawal of the extradition bill - Very valid demand, considering China signed an agreement that they will not be imposing their laws in HK until 2047. Last I checked, it's only 2019.
2. Inquiry into police brutality - Also valid, the people would like to investigate police's conduct. The police are meant to protect the people, not beat them up when they are protesting.
3. Retracting the classification of protesters as rioters - This started because China broke its words, so the people were upset and protested. Had China not broke its words, this wouldn't have happened. The people marched because China lied, not because they randomly rioted out of no where. This point can be a case by case basis with some standards since I understand not all protesters are good, some can be destructive, and we should judge them fairly.
4. Amnesty for arrested protesters - Same as point 3.
5. Dual universal suffrage, for both their Legislative and Chief Executive - Again, China signed an agreement that allows the HK'ers to manage their own government. If they are true to their words, let the HK'ers decide how they want their government to be ran.
My main point is that HK originally didn't protest for independence. This was NOT how the protest started. They started because China lied and backed out of their own words only 22 years into a 50 years signed agreement. It is only escalating because instead of admitting they were in the wrong, China cracked down on the HK citizens. HK citizens now are entertaining independence because they realized Mainland China does not keep its word. To use a Starcraft analogy, this is similar to Mengsk, Reynor, and Kerrigan working together, yet Mengsk abandoned Kerrigan on that one planet (forgot the name). When Reynor became rightfully pissed for what Mengsk did and turned on him, Mengsk called Reynor a terrorist. China is pulling a Mengsk right now.
If China is true to its words. Come back in 28 years and let the HK'ers do what they want to do with their government for now.
1. China hopes to sign extradition regulations with Hong Kong (extending criminal offenders because there have been criminals who have committed murder and rape in mainland China and have been cast into Hong Kong. The Chinese government and other countries such as the United States also have extradition regulations, and the Hong Kong government has other regions. The state has extradition regulations). Why is it rejected? This is not because mainland China requires the implementation of laws in Hong Kong, but hopes to sign regulations with Hong Kong. This is actually very strange. It is actually an agreement between a country and a country within a country.
2. I hope that you can read the Sino-British Joint Declaration carefully. He has not given the British any rights after this. You can blame the Chinese government, but because of this, I think other countries are involved. This is still the Beijing government of China and the Hong Kong region. problem.
In addition, the Chinese government's commitment is to keep Hong Kong unchanged for 50 years. I don't know how you understand it. I have two thoughts. One is to continue Hong Kong before the colony in 1997, and the second is to follow the basic law after 1997. Hong Kong. Before 1997, Hong Kong was a colony. Hong Kong people did not even have British nationality. The leaders of Hong Kong were all British whites. They were also British nationals, both the first and the second, including the Hong Kong Constitution, the Sino-British Joint Declaration. During the British colonial period, there was no universal suffrage. I don't know where Hong Kong's universal suffrage comes from. This violates the Constitution of Hong Kong - the Basic Law. In addition, without universal suffrage, it cannot mean that they have no democracy. Hong Kong's politics is closer to the Swiss political system, and each leader does not adopt the Swiss rotation system.
Keeping it for 50 years, isn't it just that there is no universal suffrage? Once the universal suffrage is not a violation of the China Commitment and the Sino-British Joint Declaration, and the Hong Kong Basic Law? Although I think that Hong Kong has been harming itself for 50 years, the development of first-tier cities in China is much better than that of Hong Kong. For me, I have lived in Shanghai for a long time, and Hong Kong is like a rural area. Of course, I am not actually, most of them. This is also true in Europe, and I have a stark contrast to the views of Japanese cities.
3. The Chinese government of Beijing and all Chinese have never opposed liberal democracy and legal protests. However, after the Cultural Revolution, the Chinese were sensitive to the protests because we realized that such collective behavior would often evolve into violence. For example, China’s previous protests, the US bombing of the Yugoslav embassy, and Japan’s activities to commemorate the death of soldiers in World War II. This kind of parade in China has produced extreme violence, as happened in Hong Kong.
If you don't trust the Chinese and don't trust the Chinese government, don't you believe that the Hong Kong government and the Hong Kong police, which have always been highly praised, don't believe it? Don't you believe in Western media? Go look for their evaluation of the Hong Kong police and the Hong Kong government in history.
4. Special criminals are not advisable. Think about the United States, but the country with the highest proportion of prison population. Of course, I don't want China to become the United States.
But think about it. There are many British nationals in the Hong Kong police, white people (maybe I think you still don't believe in the yellow race, but I don't think it is racist). Hong Kong's judicial system, so the judges are British nationality, Australian nationality, 90% of judges are white.
You should trust them, not a group of unemployed people, a group of young people who have taken a poison and drink alcohol and have sex on the roadside (although you call it freedom, but often these are blocked by neutral media).
Opposite to these violent protesters are peaceful protesters who have long since left the protest, and supporters who support the police, support the Hong Kong government, and support the Chinese government.
They are more numerous, but unfortunately they need to work and they do not use violence. So it seems to be weak, and because many of them are older people (you should have heard of Hong Kong's aging), they are not very familiar with the Internet, and the Internet is now a Z-age person (in fact, 1995-2000) Born person).
5. Why did they protest? Quite simply, young people can't find a job without a way out, and they are poor. The long-term segregation policy with mainland China discriminates against mainland Chinese people and believes that they are all poor people, as whites discriminate against black people.
Hong Kong knows that Hong Kong is bought by Li Ka-shing, and that the Chinese government cannot interfere and support socialism. Everyone has food and housing.
Later, the economic decline of Western society, if you are a European, there should be experience, the US economy has recently grown, but it is also uncomfortable. After the 2008 financial turmoil, it has been declining for a long time.
China is getting better and better. When China gets better, when they find that the Chinese who once earned 200 yuan a month have the same income and even more money, they find that they can’t be like the colonial era. Next, when it came to China, it became a millionaire, went to bed with more girls, and bought more luxurious cosmetics.
So I hope to return to the colonial era and pass violence. (Their slogan is what you saw in this Hong Kong player and the NBA), by robbing mobile phone stores, selling them online, by raising the flags of the United States and the United Kingdom.
I saw Swedes, and I think I should understand why, academically, the Sedgmo syndrome.
Perhaps Westerners believe that the colonial era is very glorious.
1. That's the thing, Hong Kong doesn't want to have this bill. They should be allowed to decline. What if the US suddenly ask China to pass a bill tomorrow that says the US can come in, arrest Chinese citizens they claim are criminals, and bring them back to US for trial? Would China want that law passed? No, they would tell the US no. It's the same thing with Hong Kong. Different countries having a treaty or agreement signed does not mean every country has to have the same agreement signed. If Hong Kong does not want it, then China should respect that.
2. I think you're misunderstanding my argument. I am not saying that British has rights or anything in the agreement. Hong Kong was a colony, and Britain gave it back to China. This is purely a China and Hong Kong issue.The argument is that China agreed to let Hong Kong manage themselves, yet now they are forcefully trying to pass laws for Hong Kong, and then call Hong Kong'ers terrorists for not wanting it. Whether or not China's best cities are more developed than Hong Kong, or if you think Hong Kong is rural is irrelevant.
The universal suffrage thing was a new demand. HK'ers wants to elect their own people without needing to screen the candidates by China. Under the "One Country, Two Systems" policy, can you tell me why this is bad? Why does China want to screen Hong Kong's candidates when it agreed that Hong Kong can manage itself? The universal suffrage does not violate any Sino-British Joint Declaration points, since its the Hong Kong citizens that are demanding for this. However, China demanding Hong Kong to pass certain laws does violate the declaration. Keeping Hong Kong the same for 50 years doesn't mean Hong Kong does not change for 50 years, it means that this policy of Hong Kong being able to pass, and reject their own laws are protected for 50 years. Here are the excerpts:
"The [HKSAR] will be vested with executive, legislative and independent judicial power, including that of final adjudication. The laws currently in force in Hong Kong will remain basically unchanged."
3. I can see why China doesn't trust these kind of big protests. As they have had first hand experience with this. China can actually take a simple approach that would prevent a lot of Hong Kong citizens from being killed actually. Don't bring in tanks to mow down the Hong Kong protesters like they did to the people in Tiananmen Square. Problem solved.
4. What do you mean by special criminals? All I want is for the arrested folks to have a fair legal trial, not just get thrown in jail because they were protesting. You can't just generalize young protesters as unemployed, drug doing hippies, that have sex on the road lol. I see you mention that a lot. We aren't walking around doing drugs and having sex with everyone here, I wish we were that cool, but we're not.
5. What? What part of the five demands the Hong Kong people are making say they want to or even mention colonial era?
On October 10 2019 04:19 whitehat511 wrote: You've got to love all the irony of all these Americans and Europeans throwing around accusations that the Chinese government has committed atrocities. You know what they say about people in glass houses.
I dont understand people like you, why would u make an account just to argue about chinese atrocities on TL.net of all places?
Maybe it is his/her job to do so. It is not the only account created only for arguing in this thread.
OK maybe I was wrong, maybe the big machine does care about TL forum... It feels like the comments under CCTV channel on youtube. You click on any of the accounts, and you will see that it's created in 1 day and just to post the only comment.
Actually ChuChuChu you keep repeating what is understood to be chinese propaganda.
Everything is glorious. Everyone is glorious. I have huge respect for China's achievements, but not that propaganda bullshit, not for opressiing people and truths.
On October 10 2019 01:44 Wombat_NI wrote: [quote] Why not?
National self-determination is a key principle of geopolitics in the modern era.
Considering a bomb blew in the windows of my house when I was but a babe, I’m quite happy that the United States interceded and helped facilitate a peace here that respected both of the national identities in our wee country.
I would personally like to see more of China and its culture emerge onto the world stage, an old and venerable culture indeed, whose people have accomplished remarkable things in the last few decades especially.
If it’s by trampling on everyone and expecting Westerners to bend to their whims and where criticism is construed as a grievous insult then, no thanks.
When you think so, have you ever asked about the thoughts of ordinary Chinese?.
I hope you understand that while this is an interesting conversation, your views are inherently skewed by the propaganda you've been fed every day. We know how the Chinese media works (and it's not just China btw. America has much of the same problems, and most of us here do recognise it as such). You have already made made several false statements and made comparisons that does not make sense (Comparing China to England because England has a mock Queen for instance). As such everything you say will be taken with the biggest grain of salt imaginable
I do think it's interesting what the ordinary Chinese thinks, but it truthfully doesn't matter. You don't get to commit human rights violations and consider it ok because "The ordinary Chinese thinks so". Guess who doesn't think it's ok? Hong Kong and its citizens.
Very interesting, wrong comparison I just want to show that some forms of democracy and freedom will change, just as discrimination against blacks is definitely not one of freedom of speech in the United States. Although Martin Luther King was killed. Similarly, China's democracy and freedom are not so much the same as the United States, because the so-called autocracy and dictator seem to be like the Queen of England and the Emperor of Japan.
And when you talk about it, we should think about Hong Kong and its citizens. I am very eager to ask, do you know how many Hong Kong people participated in this Chinese National Day celebration? Including young people, college students, government officials, police, famous stars, and ordinary people. Do you think we should think about Hong Kong people, then do you know how many people in Hong Kong support the police parade? The police in Hong Kong, the government in Hong Kong, Hong Kong, so many condemns the violent protesters, and the ordinary people, shouting at the bbc reporters, this is Hong Kong, China, the taxi driver who supports the law revision, isn't it Hong Kong?
What you see seems to be the collective public opinion of Hong Kong, actually because those people have amplified this reaction through radical methods.
Think about it, if it is really a problem of the society and the Chinese government, the Hong Kong government, the ordinary people of Hong Kong (Is it not ordinary people and the grassroots officials?) Are these attitudes still not showing anything? Think about how good the credibility of the Hong Kong government is, and the same group of people are not trusted now.
The vast majority of protesters on the streets of Hong Kong are college students, young people, and young unemployed people. Is this a normal antibody or a collective carnival of young people, like an American youth who likes to take drugs?
China has experienced two very painful students, and the young people have dominated the political violent protests, almost smashing the entire country. However, these protests did not make more than a billion people ignorant, and the ordinary Chinese who were at a loss knew how to live well.
The Chinese have supported all the legal acts of Hong Kong and have wanted to split China and Hong Kong for many years. There is nothing too fierce.
We support Hong Kong, support democracy, support freedom, and even to some extent, support universal suffrage in Hong Kong.
However, what you have to understand is what is the slogan of Hong Kong's independence and violence? This is what the Hong Kong player and the NBA rocket manager said.
This is also why the Chinese currently call it a terrorist, because terrorists in the Middle East often call themselves freedom fighters.
If Hong Kong, China, is not dominated by the majority of Chinese people and by the majority of Hong Kong people, then who will decide?
Can Texas and California declare independence today and expel all blacks and people from other states？
So，why China give up HK？and Violent protestors demanding the expulsion of mainlanders？
In mainland China, Hong Kong people's bad reputation, sense of geographical superiority and discrimination against mainlanders are the main reasons。
(you can find it in many Hong Kong movies，In mainland China, Hong Kong people's bad reputation, sense of geographical superiority and discrimination against mainlanders are the main reasons (you can find out from many Hong Kong movies, including asking mainlanders if they have seen Apple phones made in China, and mocking the mainland for lack of high-rise power and modern technology, the same thing is still happening to Chinese people in Europe, the United States, etc.)It used to be Korea and Japan.).
You bring up valid points, but what you seem to miss out on is how this all started in the first place. There is currently a Sino-British joint declaration agreement between China and the UK dated back in 1984 and went into effect in 1997 stating that HK will have its own government, is able to pass its own laws, and that their way of life would not change for 50 years. You can read a bit on that agreement here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-British_Joint_Declaration. This means that in this agreement, China agreed that its PRC principles would not be practiced in HK until 2047.
Despite this agreement, in 2014, China proposed a reform to HK's electoral system, a clear infringement of the agreement. Since China agreed that HK could remain autonomous and have authority over their own government, then why is China screening candidates for HK's Chief Executive? This started around 2014 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests), and afterwards the British Foreign Office announced that Chinese officials now treat this declaration as void. You say China support HK's democracy, then why not let the HK'ers elect who they want, instead of screening who they want the HK people to elect? The HK'ers are upset because they were promised 50 years, but China is trying to impose only 22 years into the treaty. Does this mean China's words aren't even worth 50% of what they put on papers?
So flash forward to the current protest, how did it start? Well, China wanted to pass an extradite bill in HK, another infringement of the current agreement. HK'ers did not want this law, which they are within their own rights to deny since China agreed it will not impose, yet China still adamantly demand that this law be passed. If you look over at the 5 demands HK is currently protesting for, they are extremely reasonable given that China started this by breaking their words.
1. Full withdrawal of the extradition bill - Very valid demand, considering China signed an agreement that they will not be imposing their laws in HK until 2047. Last I checked, it's only 2019.
2. Inquiry into police brutality - Also valid, the people would like to investigate police's conduct. The police are meant to protect the people, not beat them up when they are protesting.
3. Retracting the classification of protesters as rioters - This started because China broke its words, so the people were upset and protested. Had China not broke its words, this wouldn't have happened. The people marched because China lied, not because they randomly rioted out of no where. This point can be a case by case basis with some standards since I understand not all protesters are good, some can be destructive, and we should judge them fairly.
4. Amnesty for arrested protesters - Same as point 3.
5. Dual universal suffrage, for both their Legislative and Chief Executive - Again, China signed an agreement that allows the HK'ers to manage their own government. If they are true to their words, let the HK'ers decide how they want their government to be ran.
My main point is that HK originally didn't protest for independence. This was NOT how the protest started. They started because China lied and backed out of their own words only 22 years into a 50 years signed agreement. It is only escalating because instead of admitting they were in the wrong, China cracked down on the HK citizens. HK citizens now are entertaining independence because they realized Mainland China does not keep its word. To use a Starcraft analogy, this is similar to Mengsk, Reynor, and Kerrigan working together, yet Mengsk abandoned Kerrigan on that one planet (forgot the name). When Reynor became rightfully pissed for what Mengsk did and turned on him, Mengsk called Reynor a terrorist. China is pulling a Mengsk right now.
If China is true to its words. Come back in 28 years and let the HK'ers do what they want to do with their government for now.
1. China hopes to sign extradition regulations with Hong Kong (extending criminal offenders because there have been criminals who have committed murder and rape in mainland China and have been cast into Hong Kong. The Chinese government and other countries such as the United States also have extradition regulations, and the Hong Kong government has other regions. The state has extradition regulations). Why is it rejected? This is not because mainland China requires the implementation of laws in Hong Kong, but hopes to sign regulations with Hong Kong. This is actually very strange. It is actually an agreement between a country and a country within a country.
2. I hope that you can read the Sino-British Joint Declaration carefully. He has not given the British any rights after this. You can blame the Chinese government, but because of this, I think other countries are involved. This is still the Beijing government of China and the Hong Kong region. problem.
In addition, the Chinese government's commitment is to keep Hong Kong unchanged for 50 years. I don't know how you understand it. I have two thoughts. One is to continue Hong Kong before the colony in 1997, and the second is to follow the basic law after 1997. Hong Kong. Before 1997, Hong Kong was a colony. Hong Kong people did not even have British nationality. The leaders of Hong Kong were all British whites. They were also British nationals, both the first and the second, including the Hong Kong Constitution, the Sino-British Joint Declaration. During the British colonial period, there was no universal suffrage. I don't know where Hong Kong's universal suffrage comes from. This violates the Constitution of Hong Kong - the Basic Law. In addition, without universal suffrage, it cannot mean that they have no democracy. Hong Kong's politics is closer to the Swiss political system, and each leader does not adopt the Swiss rotation system.
Keeping it for 50 years, isn't it just that there is no universal suffrage? Once the universal suffrage is not a violation of the China Commitment and the Sino-British Joint Declaration, and the Hong Kong Basic Law? Although I think that Hong Kong has been harming itself for 50 years, the development of first-tier cities in China is much better than that of Hong Kong. For me, I have lived in Shanghai for a long time, and Hong Kong is like a rural area. Of course, I am not actually, most of them. This is also true in Europe, and I have a stark contrast to the views of Japanese cities.
3. The Chinese government of Beijing and all Chinese have never opposed liberal democracy and legal protests. However, after the Cultural Revolution, the Chinese were sensitive to the protests because we realized that such collective behavior would often evolve into violence. For example, China’s previous protests, the US bombing of the Yugoslav embassy, and Japan’s activities to commemorate the death of soldiers in World War II. This kind of parade in China has produced extreme violence, as happened in Hong Kong.
If you don't trust the Chinese and don't trust the Chinese government, don't you believe that the Hong Kong government and the Hong Kong police, which have always been highly praised, don't believe it? Don't you believe in Western media? Go look for their evaluation of the Hong Kong police and the Hong Kong government in history.
4. Special criminals are not advisable. Think about the United States, but the country with the highest proportion of prison population. Of course, I don't want China to become the United States.
But think about it. There are many British nationals in the Hong Kong police, white people (maybe I think you still don't believe in the yellow race, but I don't think it is racist). Hong Kong's judicial system, so the judges are British nationality, Australian nationality, 90% of judges are white.
You should trust them, not a group of unemployed people, a group of young people who have taken a poison and drink alcohol and have sex on the roadside (although you call it freedom, but often these are blocked by neutral media).
Opposite to these violent protesters are peaceful protesters who have long since left the protest, and supporters who support the police, support the Hong Kong government, and support the Chinese government.
They are more numerous, but unfortunately they need to work and they do not use violence. So it seems to be weak, and because many of them are older people (you should have heard of Hong Kong's aging), they are not very familiar with the Internet, and the Internet is now a Z-age person (in fact, 1995-2000) Born person).
5. Why did they protest? Quite simply, young people can't find a job without a way out, and they are poor. The long-term segregation policy with mainland China discriminates against mainland Chinese people and believes that they are all poor people, as whites discriminate against black people.
Hong Kong knows that Hong Kong is bought by Li Ka-shing, and that the Chinese government cannot interfere and support socialism. Everyone has food and housing.
Later, the economic decline of Western society, if you are a European, there should be experience, the US economy has recently grown, but it is also uncomfortable. After the 2008 financial turmoil, it has been declining for a long time.
China is getting better and better. When China gets better, when they find that the Chinese who once earned 200 yuan a month have the same income and even more money, they find that they can’t be like the colonial era. Next, when it came to China, it became a millionaire, went to bed with more girls, and bought more luxurious cosmetics.
So I hope to return to the colonial era and pass violence. (Their slogan is what you saw in this Hong Kong player and the NBA), by robbing mobile phone stores, selling them online, by raising the flags of the United States and the United Kingdom.
I saw Swedes, and I think I should understand why, academically, the Sedgmo syndrome.
Perhaps Westerners believe that the colonial era is very glorious.
"don't you believe that the Hong Kong government and the Hong Kong police, which have always been highly praised" "Why did they protest? Quite simply, young people can't find a job without a way out, and they are poor. The long-term segregation policy with mainland China discriminates against mainland Chinese people and believes that they are all poor people, as whites discriminate against black people."
This is trolling for sure... I can hardly find any other explanations.
Oh, poor man. In fact, it is very simple. You only need to use Google to search for the gap between the rich and the poor in Hong Kong.
Have you been to Hong Kong and China? I am very familiar with it.
Yeah yeah I can find Gini index for every country in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality But why do you think that's the reason of the protest? Where did you find that? Who told you that? You are very familiar with it but you don't know the reason?
After removing the tax and welfare transfers, Hong Kong’s Gini index was as high as 0.54. If you have been to Chicago and New York, think about where the tramp is, social security (Hong Kong people want to thank the Hong Kong police for their efforts)
In addition, you should check that the top ten billionaires in Hong Kong account for Hong Kong's GDP (more than 35%). The disparity between the rich and the poor in Hong Kong has been criticized by the United Nations. If you can visit Hong Kong's own website
You will find that Hong Kong officially announced that there are 1.3 million poor people in 7.6 million people in Hong Kong. Perhaps you should use Google to search for the poor in Hong Kong directly, or go to Hong Kong in person. Take a look at the slums in the bustling city. (The slums in mainland China have long since disappeared)
Hong Kong is an area without a universal retirement protection system. It is well developed, but his university enrollment rate is only 20%. This is the famous ten universities in Hong Kong.
Hong Kong is a developed region and an unbalanced region. You should probably look at the encyclopedia about Li Ka-shing and see his property. We call him Lee half HK (Lee half HK)
Why are you repeating the same thing over and over again? Yes HongKong has poor people and rich people, but that's not the cause of the protest. You don't even know when it began.
Imagine instead of the player from Hong Kong supporting the protests it was, let's say a Russian guy wearing a kappa pride mask asking attention for how gay people are treated in his country. Would Blizzard have reacted in the same way? I highly doubt it.
Blizzard dealt with this ridiculously harshly and has even removed the video as if it never happened. It's absurd.
@chuchuchu: This matter isn't really that much about China's influence it's more about Blizzard casting aside morals for money. The only reason they did this is because they want a piece of the Chinese mobile gaming market. This is what people are pissed about.
On October 10 2019 03:57 phodacbiet wrote: 1. Full withdrawal of the extradition bill - Very valid demand, considering China signed an agreement that they will not be imposing their laws in HK until 2047. Last I checked, it's only 2019.
huh?
Do you know what extradition is? Extradition is not related to the promise of "not imposing their laws". The USA doesn't impose its laws in Canada. However, if I run a giant telemarketing scam from Canada ripping off thousands of USA senior citizens I can be extradited to the USA by Canada. This doesn't mean the USA is imposing its laws in Canada. Both countries have prison sentences for people committing massive levels of fraud.
This. I can understand the feelings of the people involved in the massive rally from Hong Kong, they clearly hate the CCP and mainland China for various reasons and the protestors want a sovereign country or independence not that it's going to happen. I don't seem to understand what China did wrong from the perspective of countries outside of Hong Kong to get so much hate in this particular event, other than people who clearly hate China and view it as an evil or an enemy state.
And just to make it clear, China signed the agreement for Hong Kong with the British Colonial rule, because it was a good deal at the time for them as they were signing from the perspective of a weak state. Now that they are clearly not a weak country anymore I don't expect them to fully honor the agreements until 2047, just like any country in a position of power would... E.g. Trump's withdrawal from various agreements.
On October 10 2019 01:04 Spirit_HUN wrote: When this player signed up for that tournament, he accepted the rules. He simply broke the rules, ended up banning himself.
Blizzard did the right thing. This is a video game company, not a political platform. If you are concerned about human rights in Hong Kong the are other ways, platforms to do that.
You should not force a video game company to be political. There are no political comments in the Olympics, Football, Formula1 etc. as well.
I dont want video games, sports events to be filled with politics. Viewers are there to be entertained, competitors are there to compete, and not to be forced to eat political bs 0-24.
They’re not a political platform, but they do have a clear political position here which is tow whatever line the Chinese authorities want them to tow.
Seems to me it was a pretty good platform for the guy to use really, although the attention it gained was more from Blizzard’s reaction than his actions specifically. Gained a fuckload of traction even US Senators are wading in, doubt he’d have been able to elicit such a response with a tweet.
China and especially the Gulf States use sport as an extension of their soft power, they’ve made it political already, likewise the Cold War saw sporting events like the Olympics as an ideological battleground.
if it is not an political extension of soft power,why some officials of the organization are talking about politics？if not,STOP talking.As an official, you can't blatantly confront the Chinese public opinion while thinking that discrimination against Chinese people, Chinese culture and support separatism and violence.
Why not?
National self-determination is a key principle of geopolitics in the modern era.
Considering a bomb blew in the windows of my house when I was but a babe, I’m quite happy that the United States interceded and helped facilitate a peace here that respected both of the national identities in our wee country.
I would personally like to see more of China and its culture emerge onto the world stage, an old and venerable culture indeed, whose people have accomplished remarkable things in the last few decades especially.
If it’s by trampling on everyone and expecting Westerners to bend to their whims and where criticism is construed as a grievous insult then, no thanks.
When you think so, have you ever asked about the thoughts of ordinary Chinese? It's like I'm here to express the thoughts of an ordinary Chinese. Indeed, I feel sad that I didn't learn English well, because what I lost is not a good paper, but an opportunity to communicate with others.
Not only Americans can define the world. The pioneers of socialism and communism are Germans and French. Formerly President Roosevelt of the United States was also criticized for socialism or communism. But think about Chinese history, the current development of China, and the past workers of Britain.
Some ideological conflicts are unavoidable, especially under the propaganda of some western media, they usually distort the report in order to satisfy their own interests.
China does not do very well in many places, but it does not want to do so. No Chinese wants his country to be like India with the same population. (I do not mean to discriminate. Most Chinese want to live a good life first and guarantee everyone the same rights, wealth, rights and status.)
In China, it is still possible to elect people who have been upgraded from the grassroots level through examinations and votes, while officials at the grassroots level are also elected.
In China, former leaders were even born to poor peasants rather than a billion-dollar owner or equally wealthy political family. Both father and son are presidents.
Western media believe that China is undemocratic and not free, and the Chinese believe that they are free and democratic. This seems to be a disgusting tactic.
I was disappointed with many of the statements, especially those of the distorted Sixth Fourth Movement (my father was one of the participants, but later they built China into the second largest country in the world), and those who believed that the Hong Kong police should not react to any of the protestors'actions.
When commenting, consider that China has 1.4 billion people. This country can not change because of the ideas of more than a dozen people, thousands of people and tens of thousands of people.
The most important thing is to ensure that more than a billion people, like other Westerners, can live with wealth and dignity on this planet.
I wonder what this guy thinks about the hundreds of students that were murdered at Tienanmen Square in 1989.
And I wonder what you think about the Trail of Tears?
The Trail of Tears is universally taught as an abhorrent action by the United States government here in the US. It is not celebrated. Its brutal events are condemned by the people and by society. So now tell us what you think about Tienanmen Square in 1989.
Tienanmen Square in 1989 was also a brutal event and a mistake like many throughout history... And so what? 3 decades or 30 years have passed, 3 leaders have changed, lessons have been learned. You think that Xi Jinping will start killing his own people like in the past? What does Tienanmen Square have to do with the situation now at hand in Hong Kong? After 4 months of violent protesting and rioting, there is 1 person shot (not even dead) after he attacked a policeman. If anything Hong Kong police are handling the situation way better then countries like France or the US...
The reason I and many others bring it up is the difference in how a country's atrocities are handled by the country itself. And yes, many people fear that China will escalate to lethal force if the protests continue. And 4 months of violent protests? That's completely disingenuous and you know it. The protests were completely peaceful on the protesters' side of things for a very long time. They only recently became violent on both sides of the protest.
"On 12 June, the day on which the bill was scheduled for a second reading in the Legislative Council, the protests showed a sharp escalation in violence. " From Wikipedia... The violence started on the 12 June and escalated after that.
Well many people don't truly believe that China will use lethal forces, otherwise, they would assume that China and the CCP are stuck in the past and haven't learned anything or evolved since 1989. Which is surely a wrong statement after 30 years from the event. Unless people truly hate China and the CCP which isn't abnormal as people of far different cultures don't have the knowledge of Chinese history, mentality and culture and misunderstand them influenced by western views and propaganda. Otherwise, I don't see any rational reason why someone would assume a second Tienanmen Square would repeat, China has evolved a great deal since and it's not like North Korea... Imo even North Korea is progressing all bait quite slowly.
On October 10 2019 01:04 Spirit_HUN wrote: When this player signed up for that tournament, he accepted the rules. He simply broke the rules, ended up banning himself.
Blizzard did the right thing. This is a video game company, not a political platform. If you are concerned about human rights in Hong Kong the are other ways, platforms to do that.
You should not force a video game company to be political. There are no political comments in the Olympics, Football, Formula1 etc. as well.
I dont want video games, sports events to be filled with politics. Viewers are there to be entertained, competitors are there to compete, and not to be forced to eat political bs 0-24.
They’re not a political platform, but they do have a clear political position here which is tow whatever line the Chinese authorities want them to tow.
Seems to me it was a pretty good platform for the guy to use really, although the attention it gained was more from Blizzard’s reaction than his actions specifically. Gained a fuckload of traction even US Senators are wading in, doubt he’d have been able to elicit such a response with a tweet.
China and especially the Gulf States use sport as an extension of their soft power, they’ve made it political already, likewise the Cold War saw sporting events like the Olympics as an ideological battleground.
if it is not an political extension of soft power,why some officials of the organization are talking about politics？if not,STOP talking.As an official, you can't blatantly confront the Chinese public opinion while thinking that discrimination against Chinese people, Chinese culture and support separatism and violence.
Why not?
National self-determination is a key principle of geopolitics in the modern era.
Considering a bomb blew in the windows of my house when I was but a babe, I’m quite happy that the United States interceded and helped facilitate a peace here that respected both of the national identities in our wee country.
I would personally like to see more of China and its culture emerge onto the world stage, an old and venerable culture indeed, whose people have accomplished remarkable things in the last few decades especially.
If it’s by trampling on everyone and expecting Westerners to bend to their whims and where criticism is construed as a grievous insult then, no thanks.
When you think so, have you ever asked about the thoughts of ordinary Chinese? It's like I'm here to express the thoughts of an ordinary Chinese. Indeed, I feel sad that I didn't learn English well, because what I lost is not a good paper, but an opportunity to communicate with others.
Not only Americans can define the world. The pioneers of socialism and communism are Germans and French. Formerly President Roosevelt of the United States was also criticized for socialism or communism. But think about Chinese history, the current development of China, and the past workers of Britain.
Some ideological conflicts are unavoidable, especially under the propaganda of some western media, they usually distort the report in order to satisfy their own interests.
China does not do very well in many places, but it does not want to do so. No Chinese wants his country to be like India with the same population. (I do not mean to discriminate. Most Chinese want to live a good life first and guarantee everyone the same rights, wealth, rights and status.)
In China, it is still possible to elect people who have been upgraded from the grassroots level through examinations and votes, while officials at the grassroots level are also elected.
In China, former leaders were even born to poor peasants rather than a billion-dollar owner or equally wealthy political family. Both father and son are presidents.
Western media believe that China is undemocratic and not free, and the Chinese believe that they are free and democratic. This seems to be a disgusting tactic.
I was disappointed with many of the statements, especially those of the distorted Sixth Fourth Movement (my father was one of the participants, but later they built China into the second largest country in the world), and those who believed that the Hong Kong police should not react to any of the protestors'actions.
When commenting, consider that China has 1.4 billion people. This country can not change because of the ideas of more than a dozen people, thousands of people and tens of thousands of people.
The most important thing is to ensure that more than a billion people, like other Westerners, can live with wealth and dignity on this planet.
I wonder what this guy thinks about the hundreds of students that were murdered at Tienanmen Square in 1989.
And I wonder what you think about the Trail of Tears?
The Trail of Tears is universally taught as an abhorrent action by the United States government here in the US. It is not celebrated. Its brutal events are condemned by the people and by society. So now tell us what you think about Tienanmen Square in 1989.
The Chinese often regard 1989 as the same event as the Cultural Revolution. If you preach him, for the Chinese, as if to promote k.k.k, my father used to be one of them, but he told me a lot. The reason why the Chinese do not want to talk about the 1989 and the Cultural Revolution, because this is a disaster and an unspeakable thing. More importantly, they are related to political struggles. It’s as if Americans don’t talk about Lincoln actually not liberating all black slaves. The African Americans actually struggled for human rights until the 1960s-1970s, but today it is no longer a simple assassination of Martin Luther King.
In fact, you can see when I see you talking to you here. China is not what you think. I will still talk to you about this, because Blizzard is often more tolerant, just like StarCraft, or World of Warcraft shows. I will not be arrested.
Similarly, if I know you in reality, maybe I will pretend not to know and be surprised as you mentioned above. In fact, I started to understand 1989, or from China's website (dark network, the Chinese network is very complicated, in fact, you can find what you want, including everything that violates all human laws)
Because we don't want to talk about it, this is not a simple thing. Just like we don't talk about conspiracy theories on the moon or aliens in the 51st district. We talked about Kennedy flying more to the moon and today's nasa, not to him and Marilyn Monroe, as well as Cuba, and the conspiracy theories he was killed. (Actually, these conspiracy theories in the United States were very popular in China. People refused to believe that landing on the moon was true. People also believed that Kennedy died of Marilyn Monroe and family curses, and there were really aliens in District 51.)
People in the US talk about our historical figures' short-comings all the time. They are taught in schools. They are not something we have to go seek out on our own on a website. My US History teacher brought up the hypocrisy of Thomas Jefferson writing "The right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" while still owning slaves many times. We were taught about Lincoln's actual beliefs and how what he did did not truly liberate everyone and bring us on an even playing field. The struggles of the Civil Rights movement are talked about in-depth in schools. The atrocities of our government are openly taught and condemned.
You just grouped Tienanmen Square in with conspiracy theories and that's all that I think really needs to be said on that, but I will say more. Your own government murdered its own people. It drove students over with tanks without issue. Students that were peacefully protesting. Your government murdered people. It happened. It is not a conspiracy and it does not deserve to be treated like some outlandish concept. The fact you are so afraid to talk about awful things your government has done speaks volumes.
I guess the problem with Google Translate. I just said that I or other Chinese people are trying to refuse to talk about these issues, not that we don't understand, or that we don't know, afraid of some kind of revenge. The only reason is that, as the problem we are facing now is the same, a group of Westerners are trying to convince a Chinese to have a view about China.
They have a premise that they are correct. And reject all Chinese views, even if this is a Chinese issue.
We don't want to lie, so often we pretend not to know and refuse to talk. Because we know that we can't convince a group of people who only live in the West. Just like my useless work now.
Just as you don't believe in all the Chinese who have expressed their views on this, but when you try to find information, you can find that in all official documents, the United States, the European Union, and the United Nations, except for the media that is full of conspiracy theories.
Even Wikipedia has debates about whether there is a massacre in Tiananmen (1989).
Of course, you choose to believe in online media. And a Chinese (my family) who has had a real experience is brainwashed.
I don't think that we are talking about these things based on conspiracy theories. I just want to explain that sometimes when we look at American things, or when events, the Chinese will deviate from the truth of the matter, and prefer to think that conspiracy theories are correct.
You said, you are a troll. I don't believe that the Chinese government is evil and has committed various crimes. So why did someone just talk about it, and he met someone in Shanghai who told him that Falun Gong is evil? (Maybe I understand it wrong.)
We are in the classroom, if you are talking about any character in the classroom, from small to large, we are listening to political or historical teachers who constantly criticize the government or historical leaders.
Because of George's relationship (Fiction 1994), we often joked that there will be a big brother who arrests you. It is a mockery of the ignorance of Westerners, not fear.
This happened in history, but it was in the era of Martin Luther King’s struggle.
If you are telling the truth, think about it, will we communicate here?
On October 10 2019 02:04 chuchuchu wrote: [quote] When you think so, have you ever asked about the thoughts of ordinary Chinese?.
I hope you understand that while this is an interesting conversation, your views are inherently skewed by the propaganda you've been fed every day. We know how the Chinese media works (and it's not just China btw. America has much of the same problems, and most of us here do recognise it as such). You have already made made several false statements and made comparisons that does not make sense (Comparing China to England because England has a mock Queen for instance). As such everything you say will be taken with the biggest grain of salt imaginable
I do think it's interesting what the ordinary Chinese thinks, but it truthfully doesn't matter. You don't get to commit human rights violations and consider it ok because "The ordinary Chinese thinks so". Guess who doesn't think it's ok? Hong Kong and its citizens.
Very interesting, wrong comparison I just want to show that some forms of democracy and freedom will change, just as discrimination against blacks is definitely not one of freedom of speech in the United States. Although Martin Luther King was killed. Similarly, China's democracy and freedom are not so much the same as the United States, because the so-called autocracy and dictator seem to be like the Queen of England and the Emperor of Japan.
And when you talk about it, we should think about Hong Kong and its citizens. I am very eager to ask, do you know how many Hong Kong people participated in this Chinese National Day celebration? Including young people, college students, government officials, police, famous stars, and ordinary people. Do you think we should think about Hong Kong people, then do you know how many people in Hong Kong support the police parade? The police in Hong Kong, the government in Hong Kong, Hong Kong, so many condemns the violent protesters, and the ordinary people, shouting at the bbc reporters, this is Hong Kong, China, the taxi driver who supports the law revision, isn't it Hong Kong?
What you see seems to be the collective public opinion of Hong Kong, actually because those people have amplified this reaction through radical methods.
Think about it, if it is really a problem of the society and the Chinese government, the Hong Kong government, the ordinary people of Hong Kong (Is it not ordinary people and the grassroots officials?) Are these attitudes still not showing anything? Think about how good the credibility of the Hong Kong government is, and the same group of people are not trusted now.
The vast majority of protesters on the streets of Hong Kong are college students, young people, and young unemployed people. Is this a normal antibody or a collective carnival of young people, like an American youth who likes to take drugs?
China has experienced two very painful students, and the young people have dominated the political violent protests, almost smashing the entire country. However, these protests did not make more than a billion people ignorant, and the ordinary Chinese who were at a loss knew how to live well.
The Chinese have supported all the legal acts of Hong Kong and have wanted to split China and Hong Kong for many years. There is nothing too fierce.
We support Hong Kong, support democracy, support freedom, and even to some extent, support universal suffrage in Hong Kong.
However, what you have to understand is what is the slogan of Hong Kong's independence and violence? This is what the Hong Kong player and the NBA rocket manager said.
This is also why the Chinese currently call it a terrorist, because terrorists in the Middle East often call themselves freedom fighters.
If Hong Kong, China, is not dominated by the majority of Chinese people and by the majority of Hong Kong people, then who will decide?
Can Texas and California declare independence today and expel all blacks and people from other states？
So，why China give up HK？and Violent protestors demanding the expulsion of mainlanders？
In mainland China, Hong Kong people's bad reputation, sense of geographical superiority and discrimination against mainlanders are the main reasons。
(you can find it in many Hong Kong movies，In mainland China, Hong Kong people's bad reputation, sense of geographical superiority and discrimination against mainlanders are the main reasons (you can find out from many Hong Kong movies, including asking mainlanders if they have seen Apple phones made in China, and mocking the mainland for lack of high-rise power and modern technology, the same thing is still happening to Chinese people in Europe, the United States, etc.)It used to be Korea and Japan.).
You bring up valid points, but what you seem to miss out on is how this all started in the first place. There is currently a Sino-British joint declaration agreement between China and the UK dated back in 1984 and went into effect in 1997 stating that HK will have its own government, is able to pass its own laws, and that their way of life would not change for 50 years. You can read a bit on that agreement here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-British_Joint_Declaration. This means that in this agreement, China agreed that its PRC principles would not be practiced in HK until 2047.
Despite this agreement, in 2014, China proposed a reform to HK's electoral system, a clear infringement of the agreement. Since China agreed that HK could remain autonomous and have authority over their own government, then why is China screening candidates for HK's Chief Executive? This started around 2014 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests), and afterwards the British Foreign Office announced that Chinese officials now treat this declaration as void. You say China support HK's democracy, then why not let the HK'ers elect who they want, instead of screening who they want the HK people to elect? The HK'ers are upset because they were promised 50 years, but China is trying to impose only 22 years into the treaty. Does this mean China's words aren't even worth 50% of what they put on papers?
So flash forward to the current protest, how did it start? Well, China wanted to pass an extradite bill in HK, another infringement of the current agreement. HK'ers did not want this law, which they are within their own rights to deny since China agreed it will not impose, yet China still adamantly demand that this law be passed. If you look over at the 5 demands HK is currently protesting for, they are extremely reasonable given that China started this by breaking their words.
1. Full withdrawal of the extradition bill - Very valid demand, considering China signed an agreement that they will not be imposing their laws in HK until 2047. Last I checked, it's only 2019.
2. Inquiry into police brutality - Also valid, the people would like to investigate police's conduct. The police are meant to protect the people, not beat them up when they are protesting.
3. Retracting the classification of protesters as rioters - This started because China broke its words, so the people were upset and protested. Had China not broke its words, this wouldn't have happened. The people marched because China lied, not because they randomly rioted out of no where. This point can be a case by case basis with some standards since I understand not all protesters are good, some can be destructive, and we should judge them fairly.
4. Amnesty for arrested protesters - Same as point 3.
5. Dual universal suffrage, for both their Legislative and Chief Executive - Again, China signed an agreement that allows the HK'ers to manage their own government. If they are true to their words, let the HK'ers decide how they want their government to be ran.
My main point is that HK originally didn't protest for independence. This was NOT how the protest started. They started because China lied and backed out of their own words only 22 years into a 50 years signed agreement. It is only escalating because instead of admitting they were in the wrong, China cracked down on the HK citizens. HK citizens now are entertaining independence because they realized Mainland China does not keep its word. To use a Starcraft analogy, this is similar to Mengsk, Reynor, and Kerrigan working together, yet Mengsk abandoned Kerrigan on that one planet (forgot the name). When Reynor became rightfully pissed for what Mengsk did and turned on him, Mengsk called Reynor a terrorist. China is pulling a Mengsk right now.
If China is true to its words. Come back in 28 years and let the HK'ers do what they want to do with their government for now.
1. China hopes to sign extradition regulations with Hong Kong (extending criminal offenders because there have been criminals who have committed murder and rape in mainland China and have been cast into Hong Kong. The Chinese government and other countries such as the United States also have extradition regulations, and the Hong Kong government has other regions. The state has extradition regulations). Why is it rejected? This is not because mainland China requires the implementation of laws in Hong Kong, but hopes to sign regulations with Hong Kong. This is actually very strange. It is actually an agreement between a country and a country within a country.
2. I hope that you can read the Sino-British Joint Declaration carefully. He has not given the British any rights after this. You can blame the Chinese government, but because of this, I think other countries are involved. This is still the Beijing government of China and the Hong Kong region. problem.
In addition, the Chinese government's commitment is to keep Hong Kong unchanged for 50 years. I don't know how you understand it. I have two thoughts. One is to continue Hong Kong before the colony in 1997, and the second is to follow the basic law after 1997. Hong Kong. Before 1997, Hong Kong was a colony. Hong Kong people did not even have British nationality. The leaders of Hong Kong were all British whites. They were also British nationals, both the first and the second, including the Hong Kong Constitution, the Sino-British Joint Declaration. During the British colonial period, there was no universal suffrage. I don't know where Hong Kong's universal suffrage comes from. This violates the Constitution of Hong Kong - the Basic Law. In addition, without universal suffrage, it cannot mean that they have no democracy. Hong Kong's politics is closer to the Swiss political system, and each leader does not adopt the Swiss rotation system.
Keeping it for 50 years, isn't it just that there is no universal suffrage? Once the universal suffrage is not a violation of the China Commitment and the Sino-British Joint Declaration, and the Hong Kong Basic Law? Although I think that Hong Kong has been harming itself for 50 years, the development of first-tier cities in China is much better than that of Hong Kong. For me, I have lived in Shanghai for a long time, and Hong Kong is like a rural area. Of course, I am not actually, most of them. This is also true in Europe, and I have a stark contrast to the views of Japanese cities.
3. The Chinese government of Beijing and all Chinese have never opposed liberal democracy and legal protests. However, after the Cultural Revolution, the Chinese were sensitive to the protests because we realized that such collective behavior would often evolve into violence. For example, China’s previous protests, the US bombing of the Yugoslav embassy, and Japan’s activities to commemorate the death of soldiers in World War II. This kind of parade in China has produced extreme violence, as happened in Hong Kong.
If you don't trust the Chinese and don't trust the Chinese government, don't you believe that the Hong Kong government and the Hong Kong police, which have always been highly praised, don't believe it? Don't you believe in Western media? Go look for their evaluation of the Hong Kong police and the Hong Kong government in history.
4. Special criminals are not advisable. Think about the United States, but the country with the highest proportion of prison population. Of course, I don't want China to become the United States.
But think about it. There are many British nationals in the Hong Kong police, white people (maybe I think you still don't believe in the yellow race, but I don't think it is racist). Hong Kong's judicial system, so the judges are British nationality, Australian nationality, 90% of judges are white.
You should trust them, not a group of unemployed people, a group of young people who have taken a poison and drink alcohol and have sex on the roadside (although you call it freedom, but often these are blocked by neutral media).
Opposite to these violent protesters are peaceful protesters who have long since left the protest, and supporters who support the police, support the Hong Kong government, and support the Chinese government.
They are more numerous, but unfortunately they need to work and they do not use violence. So it seems to be weak, and because many of them are older people (you should have heard of Hong Kong's aging), they are not very familiar with the Internet, and the Internet is now a Z-age person (in fact, 1995-2000) Born person).
5. Why did they protest? Quite simply, young people can't find a job without a way out, and they are poor. The long-term segregation policy with mainland China discriminates against mainland Chinese people and believes that they are all poor people, as whites discriminate against black people.
Hong Kong knows that Hong Kong is bought by Li Ka-shing, and that the Chinese government cannot interfere and support socialism. Everyone has food and housing.
Later, the economic decline of Western society, if you are a European, there should be experience, the US economy has recently grown, but it is also uncomfortable. After the 2008 financial turmoil, it has been declining for a long time.
China is getting better and better. When China gets better, when they find that the Chinese who once earned 200 yuan a month have the same income and even more money, they find that they can’t be like the colonial era. Next, when it came to China, it became a millionaire, went to bed with more girls, and bought more luxurious cosmetics.
So I hope to return to the colonial era and pass violence. (Their slogan is what you saw in this Hong Kong player and the NBA), by robbing mobile phone stores, selling them online, by raising the flags of the United States and the United Kingdom.
I saw Swedes, and I think I should understand why, academically, the Sedgmo syndrome.
Perhaps Westerners believe that the colonial era is very glorious.
"don't you believe that the Hong Kong government and the Hong Kong police, which have always been highly praised" "Why did they protest? Quite simply, young people can't find a job without a way out, and they are poor. The long-term segregation policy with mainland China discriminates against mainland Chinese people and believes that they are all poor people, as whites discriminate against black people."
This is trolling for sure... I can hardly find any other explanations.
Oh, poor man. In fact, it is very simple. You only need to use Google to search for the gap between the rich and the poor in Hong Kong.
Have you been to Hong Kong and China? I am very familiar with it.
Yeah yeah I can find Gini index for every country in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality But why do you think that's the reason of the protest? Where did you find that? Who told you that? You are very familiar with it but you don't know the reason?
After removing the tax and welfare transfers, Hong Kong’s Gini index was as high as 0.54. If you have been to Chicago and New York, think about where the tramp is, social security (Hong Kong people want to thank the Hong Kong police for their efforts)
In addition, you should check that the top ten billionaires in Hong Kong account for Hong Kong's GDP (more than 35%). The disparity between the rich and the poor in Hong Kong has been criticized by the United Nations. If you can visit Hong Kong's own website
You will find that Hong Kong officially announced that there are 1.3 million poor people in 7.6 million people in Hong Kong. Perhaps you should use Google to search for the poor in Hong Kong directly, or go to Hong Kong in person. Take a look at the slums in the bustling city. (The slums in mainland China have long since disappeared)
Hong Kong is an area without a universal retirement protection system. It is well developed, but his university enrollment rate is only 20%. This is the famous ten universities in Hong Kong.
Hong Kong is a developed region and an unbalanced region. You should probably look at the encyclopedia about Li Ka-shing and see his property. We call him Lee half HK (Lee half HK)
Why are you repeating the same thing over and over again? Yes HongKong has poor people and rich people, but that's not the cause of the protest. You don't even know when it began.
I certainly know how to get started, what is the reason, and the so-called five major demands. What I told you is the real reason. Because the reason you think is actually happening in Hong Kong within 100 years, not in such a time period. The reasons they opposed were consistent with the violent protests in France. Perhaps you think that the French violent protest is not because the rights of the poor are not guaranteed. But they like it, and the yearning for freedom.
On October 10 2019 04:45 chuchuchu wrote: In fact, you can see when I see you talking to you here. China is not what you think. I will still talk to you about this, because Blizzard is often more tolerant, just like StarCraft, or World of Warcraft shows. I will not be arrested.
The absolute most important thing to take out of everything you've said so far, is that you believe that being arrested for talking is somehow a completely normal thing, and than a western company like Blizzard would both have the power to do so (but chooses not to), or any power of this forum here whatsoever.
This. Is. Not. Normal! It is not considered ok to be arrested for voicing your opinions too loudly. This is what China does! To use the most cliché words in the history of cliché words: Wake up!
On October 10 2019 01:21 Wombat_NI wrote: [quote] They’re not a political platform, but they do have a clear political position here which is tow whatever line the Chinese authorities want them to tow.
Seems to me it was a pretty good platform for the guy to use really, although the attention it gained was more from Blizzard’s reaction than his actions specifically. Gained a fuckload of traction even US Senators are wading in, doubt he’d have been able to elicit such a response with a tweet.
China and especially the Gulf States use sport as an extension of their soft power, they’ve made it political already, likewise the Cold War saw sporting events like the Olympics as an ideological battleground.
if it is not an political extension of soft power,why some officials of the organization are talking about politics？if not,STOP talking.As an official, you can't blatantly confront the Chinese public opinion while thinking that discrimination against Chinese people, Chinese culture and support separatism and violence.
Why not?
National self-determination is a key principle of geopolitics in the modern era.
Considering a bomb blew in the windows of my house when I was but a babe, I’m quite happy that the United States interceded and helped facilitate a peace here that respected both of the national identities in our wee country.
I would personally like to see more of China and its culture emerge onto the world stage, an old and venerable culture indeed, whose people have accomplished remarkable things in the last few decades especially.
If it’s by trampling on everyone and expecting Westerners to bend to their whims and where criticism is construed as a grievous insult then, no thanks.
When you think so, have you ever asked about the thoughts of ordinary Chinese? It's like I'm here to express the thoughts of an ordinary Chinese. Indeed, I feel sad that I didn't learn English well, because what I lost is not a good paper, but an opportunity to communicate with others.
Not only Americans can define the world. The pioneers of socialism and communism are Germans and French. Formerly President Roosevelt of the United States was also criticized for socialism or communism. But think about Chinese history, the current development of China, and the past workers of Britain.
Some ideological conflicts are unavoidable, especially under the propaganda of some western media, they usually distort the report in order to satisfy their own interests.
China does not do very well in many places, but it does not want to do so. No Chinese wants his country to be like India with the same population. (I do not mean to discriminate. Most Chinese want to live a good life first and guarantee everyone the same rights, wealth, rights and status.)
In China, it is still possible to elect people who have been upgraded from the grassroots level through examinations and votes, while officials at the grassroots level are also elected.
In China, former leaders were even born to poor peasants rather than a billion-dollar owner or equally wealthy political family. Both father and son are presidents.
Western media believe that China is undemocratic and not free, and the Chinese believe that they are free and democratic. This seems to be a disgusting tactic.
I was disappointed with many of the statements, especially those of the distorted Sixth Fourth Movement (my father was one of the participants, but later they built China into the second largest country in the world), and those who believed that the Hong Kong police should not react to any of the protestors'actions.
When commenting, consider that China has 1.4 billion people. This country can not change because of the ideas of more than a dozen people, thousands of people and tens of thousands of people.
The most important thing is to ensure that more than a billion people, like other Westerners, can live with wealth and dignity on this planet.
I wonder what this guy thinks about the hundreds of students that were murdered at Tienanmen Square in 1989.
And I wonder what you think about the Trail of Tears?
The Trail of Tears is universally taught as an abhorrent action by the United States government here in the US. It is not celebrated. Its brutal events are condemned by the people and by society. So now tell us what you think about Tienanmen Square in 1989.
The Chinese often regard 1989 as the same event as the Cultural Revolution. If you preach him, for the Chinese, as if to promote k.k.k, my father used to be one of them, but he told me a lot. The reason why the Chinese do not want to talk about the 1989 and the Cultural Revolution, because this is a disaster and an unspeakable thing. More importantly, they are related to political struggles. It’s as if Americans don’t talk about Lincoln actually not liberating all black slaves. The African Americans actually struggled for human rights until the 1960s-1970s, but today it is no longer a simple assassination of Martin Luther King.
In fact, you can see when I see you talking to you here. China is not what you think. I will still talk to you about this, because Blizzard is often more tolerant, just like StarCraft, or World of Warcraft shows. I will not be arrested.
Similarly, if I know you in reality, maybe I will pretend not to know and be surprised as you mentioned above. In fact, I started to understand 1989, or from China's website (dark network, the Chinese network is very complicated, in fact, you can find what you want, including everything that violates all human laws)
Because we don't want to talk about it, this is not a simple thing. Just like we don't talk about conspiracy theories on the moon or aliens in the 51st district. We talked about Kennedy flying more to the moon and today's nasa, not to him and Marilyn Monroe, as well as Cuba, and the conspiracy theories he was killed. (Actually, these conspiracy theories in the United States were very popular in China. People refused to believe that landing on the moon was true. People also believed that Kennedy died of Marilyn Monroe and family curses, and there were really aliens in District 51.)
People in the US talk about our historical figures' short-comings all the time. They are taught in schools. They are not something we have to go seek out on our own on a website. My US History teacher brought up the hypocrisy of Thomas Jefferson writing "The right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" while still owning slaves many times. We were taught about Lincoln's actual beliefs and how what he did did not truly liberate everyone and bring us on an even playing field. The struggles of the Civil Rights movement are talked about in-depth in schools. The atrocities of our government are openly taught and condemned.
You just grouped Tienanmen Square in with conspiracy theories and that's all that I think really needs to be said on that, but I will say more. Your own government murdered its own people. It drove students over with tanks without issue. Students that were peacefully protesting. Your government murdered people. It happened. It is not a conspiracy and it does not deserve to be treated like some outlandish concept. The fact you are so afraid to talk about awful things your government has done speaks volumes.
I guess the problem with Google Translate. I just said that I or other Chinese people are trying to refuse to talk about these issues, not that we don't understand, or that we don't know, afraid of some kind of revenge. The only reason is that, as the problem we are facing now is the same, a group of Westerners are trying to convince a Chinese to have a view about China.
They have a premise that they are correct. And reject all Chinese views, even if this is a Chinese issue.
We don't want to lie, so often we pretend not to know and refuse to talk. Because we know that we can't convince a group of people who only live in the West. Just like my useless work now.
Just as you don't believe in all the Chinese who have expressed their views on this, but when you try to find information, you can find that in all official documents, the United States, the European Union, and the United Nations, except for the media that is full of conspiracy theories.
Even Wikipedia has debates about whether there is a massacre in Tiananmen (1989).
Of course, you choose to believe in online media. And a Chinese (my family) who has had a real experience is brainwashed.
I don't think that we are talking about these things based on conspiracy theories. I just want to explain that sometimes when we look at American things, or when events, the Chinese will deviate from the truth of the matter, and prefer to think that conspiracy theories are correct.
You said, you are a troll. I don't believe that the Chinese government is evil and has committed various crimes. So why did someone just talk about it, and he met someone in Shanghai who told him that Falun Gong is evil? (Maybe I understand it wrong.)
We are in the classroom, if you are talking about any character in the classroom, from small to large, we are listening to political or historical teachers who constantly criticize the government or historical leaders.
Because of George's relationship (Fiction 1994), we often joked that there will be a big brother who arrests you. It is a mockery of the ignorance of Westerners, not fear.
This happened in history, but it was in the era of Martin Luther King’s struggle.
If you are telling the truth, think about it, will we communicate here?
"Because of George's relationship (Fiction 1994), we often joked that there will be a big brother who arrests you. It is a mockery of the ignorance of Westerners, not fear."
If we don't already know that you're from mainland China, we will have to ask you "are you high?" Because this is so confusing, and even google translate can't be blamed.
On October 10 2019 05:33 chuchuchu wrote: Even Wikipedia has debates about whether there is a massacre in Tiananmen (1989).
There are no debates on Wikipedia about whether the massacre happened. People are allowed to debate on the wiki debate page, and on there anyone and whomever can say whatever the heck they please. That never makes it onto the actual article itself, which requires sources for everything you post.
And there are plenty of sources for Tiananmen square. There's fucking photos of it! And they have existed since before Photoshop was a thing.
On October 10 2019 04:19 whitehat511 wrote: You've got to love all the irony of all these Americans and Europeans throwing around accusations that the Chinese government has committed atrocities. You know what they say about people in glass houses.
I dont understand people like you, why would u make an account just to argue about chinese atrocities on TL.net of all places?
Maybe it is his/her job to do so. It is not the only account created only for arguing in this thread.
OK maybe I was wrong, maybe the big machine does care about TL forum... It feels like the comments under CCTV channel on youtube. You click on any of the accounts, and you will see that it's created in 1 day and just to post the only comment.
In fact, I have already talked about it. If you are a manager, you will find that I registered in the GvW competition in Korea. Because I want to vote for people. As for why I don't post, it is because of English problems. We are more accustomed to being active in China's own Chinese forum. Is there anything wrong with it?
As for why I will post this time because of the website https://www.rankedftw.com/. Some people have changed the China region (China mainland server) in the StarCraft area to the Hong Kong regional flag, and the Hong Kong name. I don't know Western culture and values.
But this matter has already been debated in the Chinese forum in China. And this thing itself does not respect others
We don't want to see Blizzard or StarCraft become the victim of the next political struggle.
We love the NBA and love StarCraft, but we really can't accept such an offense.
If I support K.K.K today, will you support my freedom of speech? I am afraid that the United States will refuse entry.
Popular Hearthstone professional, streamer, and tournament caster Brian Kibler today issued a statement that he “will have no involvement in Grandmasters,” unless “something changes” following Blizzard’s decision to ban Hearthstone player Chung “blitzchung” Ng Wai from the tournament circuit.
Kibler, a regular presence on the Hearthstone competitive commentariat posted a blog today, expressing concern at the “incredibly harsh” punishment meted out by Blizzard to Chung. Earlier this week, the company banned Chung for a year, and confiscated his Asia-Pacific Grandmasters earnings after he shouted “liberate Hong Kong, revolution of our time,” a slogan associated with the current pro-democracy protests.
Blizzard’s actions, which are closely tied to the company’s commercial ambitions in China, have been met with outrage. Some have called for a boycott on the company’s products. Protests have followed from Blizzard employees and Hearthstone competitors.
Kibler’s blog acknowledged that Chung had broken tournament rules, but said that the context of the political situation in Hong Kong, and Activision Blizzard’s Asian ambitions, could not be ignored.
“I won’t pretend to understand either the intricacies of the geopolitical situation in China and Hong Kong or the full extent of Blizzard’s business interests there,” he wrote. “But to me this penalty feels like it is deeply rooted in both. The heavy-handedness of it feels like someone insisted that Blizzard make an example of Blitzchung, not only to discourage others from similar acts in the future but also to appease those upset by the outburst itself.”
Kibler, 39, has been professional card game player for more than two decades, with multiple Hearthstone and Magic: The Gathering tournament trophies. He’s also a regular caster and commentator.
“That kind of appeasement is simply not something I can in good conscience be associated with,” he added in his blog. “When I learned about the ruling, I reached out to Blizzard and informed them that I no longer feel comfortable casting the Grandmasters finals at BlizzCon. I will not be a smiling face on camera that tacitly endorses this decision. Unless something changes, I will have no involvement in Grandmasters moving forward.”
On October 10 2019 05:33 chuchuchu wrote: Even Wikipedia has debates about whether there is a massacre in Tiananmen (1989).
There are no debates on Wikipedia about whether the massacre happened. People are allowed to debate on the wiki debate page, and on there anyone and whomever can say whatever the heck they please. That never makes it onto the actual article itself, which requires sources for everything you post.
And there are plenty of sources for Tiananmen square. There's fucking photos of it! And they have existed since before Photoshop was a thing.
The so-called photo is a screenshot of the famous tank man. Photo of the massacre? The blood flows into the river, the bodies of thousands of people. Are you questioning my ability to use the network?
The tanker's video doesn't know if you have seen it. I mean the complete video of the tank stopping and then a group of people pulling him away.
The Japanese also had photos of Chinese people in World War II. Why, do you want to refute the Second World War and support fascism?
I hope you understand that while this is an interesting conversation, your views are inherently skewed by the propaganda you've been fed every day. We know how the Chinese media works (and it's not just China btw. America has much of the same problems, and most of us here do recognise it as such). You have already made made several false statements and made comparisons that does not make sense (Comparing China to England because England has a mock Queen for instance). As such everything you say will be taken with the biggest grain of salt imaginable
I do think it's interesting what the ordinary Chinese thinks, but it truthfully doesn't matter. You don't get to commit human rights violations and consider it ok because "The ordinary Chinese thinks so". Guess who doesn't think it's ok? Hong Kong and its citizens.
Very interesting, wrong comparison I just want to show that some forms of democracy and freedom will change, just as discrimination against blacks is definitely not one of freedom of speech in the United States. Although Martin Luther King was killed. Similarly, China's democracy and freedom are not so much the same as the United States, because the so-called autocracy and dictator seem to be like the Queen of England and the Emperor of Japan.
And when you talk about it, we should think about Hong Kong and its citizens. I am very eager to ask, do you know how many Hong Kong people participated in this Chinese National Day celebration? Including young people, college students, government officials, police, famous stars, and ordinary people. Do you think we should think about Hong Kong people, then do you know how many people in Hong Kong support the police parade? The police in Hong Kong, the government in Hong Kong, Hong Kong, so many condemns the violent protesters, and the ordinary people, shouting at the bbc reporters, this is Hong Kong, China, the taxi driver who supports the law revision, isn't it Hong Kong?
What you see seems to be the collective public opinion of Hong Kong, actually because those people have amplified this reaction through radical methods.
Think about it, if it is really a problem of the society and the Chinese government, the Hong Kong government, the ordinary people of Hong Kong (Is it not ordinary people and the grassroots officials?) Are these attitudes still not showing anything? Think about how good the credibility of the Hong Kong government is, and the same group of people are not trusted now.
The vast majority of protesters on the streets of Hong Kong are college students, young people, and young unemployed people. Is this a normal antibody or a collective carnival of young people, like an American youth who likes to take drugs?
China has experienced two very painful students, and the young people have dominated the political violent protests, almost smashing the entire country. However, these protests did not make more than a billion people ignorant, and the ordinary Chinese who were at a loss knew how to live well.
The Chinese have supported all the legal acts of Hong Kong and have wanted to split China and Hong Kong for many years. There is nothing too fierce.
We support Hong Kong, support democracy, support freedom, and even to some extent, support universal suffrage in Hong Kong.
However, what you have to understand is what is the slogan of Hong Kong's independence and violence? This is what the Hong Kong player and the NBA rocket manager said.
This is also why the Chinese currently call it a terrorist, because terrorists in the Middle East often call themselves freedom fighters.
If Hong Kong, China, is not dominated by the majority of Chinese people and by the majority of Hong Kong people, then who will decide?
Can Texas and California declare independence today and expel all blacks and people from other states？
So，why China give up HK？and Violent protestors demanding the expulsion of mainlanders？
In mainland China, Hong Kong people's bad reputation, sense of geographical superiority and discrimination against mainlanders are the main reasons。
(you can find it in many Hong Kong movies，In mainland China, Hong Kong people's bad reputation, sense of geographical superiority and discrimination against mainlanders are the main reasons (you can find out from many Hong Kong movies, including asking mainlanders if they have seen Apple phones made in China, and mocking the mainland for lack of high-rise power and modern technology, the same thing is still happening to Chinese people in Europe, the United States, etc.)It used to be Korea and Japan.).
You bring up valid points, but what you seem to miss out on is how this all started in the first place. There is currently a Sino-British joint declaration agreement between China and the UK dated back in 1984 and went into effect in 1997 stating that HK will have its own government, is able to pass its own laws, and that their way of life would not change for 50 years. You can read a bit on that agreement here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-British_Joint_Declaration. This means that in this agreement, China agreed that its PRC principles would not be practiced in HK until 2047.
Despite this agreement, in 2014, China proposed a reform to HK's electoral system, a clear infringement of the agreement. Since China agreed that HK could remain autonomous and have authority over their own government, then why is China screening candidates for HK's Chief Executive? This started around 2014 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests), and afterwards the British Foreign Office announced that Chinese officials now treat this declaration as void. You say China support HK's democracy, then why not let the HK'ers elect who they want, instead of screening who they want the HK people to elect? The HK'ers are upset because they were promised 50 years, but China is trying to impose only 22 years into the treaty. Does this mean China's words aren't even worth 50% of what they put on papers?
So flash forward to the current protest, how did it start? Well, China wanted to pass an extradite bill in HK, another infringement of the current agreement. HK'ers did not want this law, which they are within their own rights to deny since China agreed it will not impose, yet China still adamantly demand that this law be passed. If you look over at the 5 demands HK is currently protesting for, they are extremely reasonable given that China started this by breaking their words.
1. Full withdrawal of the extradition bill - Very valid demand, considering China signed an agreement that they will not be imposing their laws in HK until 2047. Last I checked, it's only 2019.
2. Inquiry into police brutality - Also valid, the people would like to investigate police's conduct. The police are meant to protect the people, not beat them up when they are protesting.
3. Retracting the classification of protesters as rioters - This started because China broke its words, so the people were upset and protested. Had China not broke its words, this wouldn't have happened. The people marched because China lied, not because they randomly rioted out of no where. This point can be a case by case basis with some standards since I understand not all protesters are good, some can be destructive, and we should judge them fairly.
4. Amnesty for arrested protesters - Same as point 3.
5. Dual universal suffrage, for both their Legislative and Chief Executive - Again, China signed an agreement that allows the HK'ers to manage their own government. If they are true to their words, let the HK'ers decide how they want their government to be ran.
My main point is that HK originally didn't protest for independence. This was NOT how the protest started. They started because China lied and backed out of their own words only 22 years into a 50 years signed agreement. It is only escalating because instead of admitting they were in the wrong, China cracked down on the HK citizens. HK citizens now are entertaining independence because they realized Mainland China does not keep its word. To use a Starcraft analogy, this is similar to Mengsk, Reynor, and Kerrigan working together, yet Mengsk abandoned Kerrigan on that one planet (forgot the name). When Reynor became rightfully pissed for what Mengsk did and turned on him, Mengsk called Reynor a terrorist. China is pulling a Mengsk right now.
If China is true to its words. Come back in 28 years and let the HK'ers do what they want to do with their government for now.
1. China hopes to sign extradition regulations with Hong Kong (extending criminal offenders because there have been criminals who have committed murder and rape in mainland China and have been cast into Hong Kong. The Chinese government and other countries such as the United States also have extradition regulations, and the Hong Kong government has other regions. The state has extradition regulations). Why is it rejected? This is not because mainland China requires the implementation of laws in Hong Kong, but hopes to sign regulations with Hong Kong. This is actually very strange. It is actually an agreement between a country and a country within a country.
2. I hope that you can read the Sino-British Joint Declaration carefully. He has not given the British any rights after this. You can blame the Chinese government, but because of this, I think other countries are involved. This is still the Beijing government of China and the Hong Kong region. problem.
In addition, the Chinese government's commitment is to keep Hong Kong unchanged for 50 years. I don't know how you understand it. I have two thoughts. One is to continue Hong Kong before the colony in 1997, and the second is to follow the basic law after 1997. Hong Kong. Before 1997, Hong Kong was a colony. Hong Kong people did not even have British nationality. The leaders of Hong Kong were all British whites. They were also British nationals, both the first and the second, including the Hong Kong Constitution, the Sino-British Joint Declaration. During the British colonial period, there was no universal suffrage. I don't know where Hong Kong's universal suffrage comes from. This violates the Constitution of Hong Kong - the Basic Law. In addition, without universal suffrage, it cannot mean that they have no democracy. Hong Kong's politics is closer to the Swiss political system, and each leader does not adopt the Swiss rotation system.
Keeping it for 50 years, isn't it just that there is no universal suffrage? Once the universal suffrage is not a violation of the China Commitment and the Sino-British Joint Declaration, and the Hong Kong Basic Law? Although I think that Hong Kong has been harming itself for 50 years, the development of first-tier cities in China is much better than that of Hong Kong. For me, I have lived in Shanghai for a long time, and Hong Kong is like a rural area. Of course, I am not actually, most of them. This is also true in Europe, and I have a stark contrast to the views of Japanese cities.
3. The Chinese government of Beijing and all Chinese have never opposed liberal democracy and legal protests. However, after the Cultural Revolution, the Chinese were sensitive to the protests because we realized that such collective behavior would often evolve into violence. For example, China’s previous protests, the US bombing of the Yugoslav embassy, and Japan’s activities to commemorate the death of soldiers in World War II. This kind of parade in China has produced extreme violence, as happened in Hong Kong.
If you don't trust the Chinese and don't trust the Chinese government, don't you believe that the Hong Kong government and the Hong Kong police, which have always been highly praised, don't believe it? Don't you believe in Western media? Go look for their evaluation of the Hong Kong police and the Hong Kong government in history.
4. Special criminals are not advisable. Think about the United States, but the country with the highest proportion of prison population. Of course, I don't want China to become the United States.
But think about it. There are many British nationals in the Hong Kong police, white people (maybe I think you still don't believe in the yellow race, but I don't think it is racist). Hong Kong's judicial system, so the judges are British nationality, Australian nationality, 90% of judges are white.
You should trust them, not a group of unemployed people, a group of young people who have taken a poison and drink alcohol and have sex on the roadside (although you call it freedom, but often these are blocked by neutral media).
Opposite to these violent protesters are peaceful protesters who have long since left the protest, and supporters who support the police, support the Hong Kong government, and support the Chinese government.
They are more numerous, but unfortunately they need to work and they do not use violence. So it seems to be weak, and because many of them are older people (you should have heard of Hong Kong's aging), they are not very familiar with the Internet, and the Internet is now a Z-age person (in fact, 1995-2000) Born person).
5. Why did they protest? Quite simply, young people can't find a job without a way out, and they are poor. The long-term segregation policy with mainland China discriminates against mainland Chinese people and believes that they are all poor people, as whites discriminate against black people.
Hong Kong knows that Hong Kong is bought by Li Ka-shing, and that the Chinese government cannot interfere and support socialism. Everyone has food and housing.
Later, the economic decline of Western society, if you are a European, there should be experience, the US economy has recently grown, but it is also uncomfortable. After the 2008 financial turmoil, it has been declining for a long time.
China is getting better and better. When China gets better, when they find that the Chinese who once earned 200 yuan a month have the same income and even more money, they find that they can’t be like the colonial era. Next, when it came to China, it became a millionaire, went to bed with more girls, and bought more luxurious cosmetics.
So I hope to return to the colonial era and pass violence. (Their slogan is what you saw in this Hong Kong player and the NBA), by robbing mobile phone stores, selling them online, by raising the flags of the United States and the United Kingdom.
I saw Swedes, and I think I should understand why, academically, the Sedgmo syndrome.
Perhaps Westerners believe that the colonial era is very glorious.
"don't you believe that the Hong Kong government and the Hong Kong police, which have always been highly praised" "Why did they protest? Quite simply, young people can't find a job without a way out, and they are poor. The long-term segregation policy with mainland China discriminates against mainland Chinese people and believes that they are all poor people, as whites discriminate against black people."
This is trolling for sure... I can hardly find any other explanations.
Oh, poor man. In fact, it is very simple. You only need to use Google to search for the gap between the rich and the poor in Hong Kong.
Have you been to Hong Kong and China? I am very familiar with it.
Yeah yeah I can find Gini index for every country in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality But why do you think that's the reason of the protest? Where did you find that? Who told you that? You are very familiar with it but you don't know the reason?
After removing the tax and welfare transfers, Hong Kong’s Gini index was as high as 0.54. If you have been to Chicago and New York, think about where the tramp is, social security (Hong Kong people want to thank the Hong Kong police for their efforts)
In addition, you should check that the top ten billionaires in Hong Kong account for Hong Kong's GDP (more than 35%). The disparity between the rich and the poor in Hong Kong has been criticized by the United Nations. If you can visit Hong Kong's own website
You will find that Hong Kong officially announced that there are 1.3 million poor people in 7.6 million people in Hong Kong. Perhaps you should use Google to search for the poor in Hong Kong directly, or go to Hong Kong in person. Take a look at the slums in the bustling city. (The slums in mainland China have long since disappeared)
Hong Kong is an area without a universal retirement protection system. It is well developed, but his university enrollment rate is only 20%. This is the famous ten universities in Hong Kong.
Hong Kong is a developed region and an unbalanced region. You should probably look at the encyclopedia about Li Ka-shing and see his property. We call him Lee half HK (Lee half HK)
Why are you repeating the same thing over and over again? Yes HongKong has poor people and rich people, but that's not the cause of the protest. You don't even know when it began.
I certainly know how to get started, what is the reason, and the so-called five major demands. What I told you is the real reason. Because the reason you think is actually happening in Hong Kong within 100 years, not in such a time period. The reasons they opposed were consistent with the violent protests in France. Perhaps you think that the French violent protest is not because the rights of the poor are not guaranteed. But they like it, and the yearning for freedom.
Yeah yeah of course you know the reason of the protest better than the protester themselves, everyone's lying and only you know the truth, based on your research on Chinese social media posts.
On October 10 2019 05:33 chuchuchu wrote: Even Wikipedia has debates about whether there is a massacre in Tiananmen (1989).
There are no debates on Wikipedia about whether the massacre happened. People are allowed to debate on the wiki debate page, and on there anyone and whomever can say whatever the heck they please. That never makes it onto the actual article itself, which requires sources for everything you post.
And there are plenty of sources for Tiananmen square. There's fucking photos of it! And they have existed since before Photoshop was a thing.
Are you questioning my ability to use the network?
On October 10 2019 05:29 Penev wrote: Imagine instead of the player from Hong Kong supporting the protests it was, let's say a Russian guy wearing a kappa pride mask asking attention for how gay people are treated in his country. Would Blizzard have reacted in the same way? I highly doubt it.
Blizzard dealt with this ridiculously harshly and has even removed the video as if it never happened. It's absurd.
@chuchuchu: This matter isn't really that much about China's influence it's more about Blizzard casting aside morals for money. The only reason they did this is because they want a piece of the Chinese mobile gaming market. This is what people are pissed about.
It’s just too stupid. Some people still think that Blizzard is for greed. The entire Asia-Pacific region earns only 10% of Blizzard. The Chinese do not buy COD. Do Chinese people play mobile games? Maybe they prefer to play pubg on steam.
That's why I am always amazed. You can try to learn Chinese. You can immediately find out how the Chinese hate Blizzard's mobile games and think about the Chinese people's enthusiasm for Diablo.
No one believes that the game can actually sell so much in China. No one has ever reached half the height before.
The entire Chinese network is a ridicule for Blizzard and a carnival for Blizzard's stock price crash.
It is ridiculous to say that mobile games to earn Chinese money.
To tell you the truth, because the investment companies behind Blizzard have Chinese companies.
On October 10 2019 04:19 whitehat511 wrote: You've got to love all the irony of all these Americans and Europeans throwing around accusations that the Chinese government has committed atrocities. You know what they say about people in glass houses.
I dont understand people like you, why would u make an account just to argue about chinese atrocities on TL.net of all places?
Maybe it is his/her job to do so. It is not the only account created only for arguing in this thread.
OK maybe I was wrong, maybe the big machine does care about TL forum... It feels like the comments under CCTV channel on youtube. You click on any of the accounts, and you will see that it's created in 1 day and just to post the only comment.
In fact, I have already talked about it. If you are a manager, you will find that I registered in the GvW competition in Korea. Because I want to vote for people. As for why I don't post, it is because of English problems. We are more accustomed to being active in China's own Chinese forum. Is there anything wrong with it?
As for why I will post this time because of the website https://www.rankedftw.com/. Some people have changed the China region (China mainland server) in the StarCraft area to the Hong Kong regional flag, and the Hong Kong name. I don't know Western culture and values.
But this matter has already been debated in the Chinese forum in China. And this thing itself does not respect others
We don't want to see Blizzard or StarCraft become the victim of the next political struggle.
We love the NBA and love StarCraft, but we really can't accept such an offense.
If I support K.K.K today, will you support my freedom of speech? I am afraid that the United States will refuse entry.
"We don't want to see Blizzard or StarCraft become the victim of the next political struggle." Then this is the wrong place to go. If people go against Blizzard because of Hearthstone, you can't save it by arguing on a Starcraft forum. There's not much of attention here. The only helpful thing is that you may have a chance to improve your English. Nothing about people's decision.
Popular Hearthstone professional, streamer, and tournament caster Brian Kibler today issued a statement that he “will have no involvement in Grandmasters,” unless “something changes” following Blizzard’s decision to ban Hearthstone player Chung “blitzchung” Ng Wai from the tournament circuit.
Kibler, a regular presence on the Hearthstone competitive commentariat posted a blog today, expressing concern at the “incredibly harsh” punishment meted out by Blizzard to Chung. Earlier this week, the company banned Chung for a year, and confiscated his Asia-Pacific Grandmasters earnings after he shouted “liberate Hong Kong, revolution of our time,” a slogan associated with the current pro-democracy protests.
Blizzard’s actions, which are closely tied to the company’s commercial ambitions in China, have been met with outrage. Some have called for a boycott on the company’s products. Protests have followed from Blizzard employees and Hearthstone competitors.
Kibler’s blog acknowledged that Chung had broken tournament rules, but said that the context of the political situation in Hong Kong, and Activision Blizzard’s Asian ambitions, could not be ignored.
“I won’t pretend to understand either the intricacies of the geopolitical situation in China and Hong Kong or the full extent of Blizzard’s business interests there,” he wrote. “But to me this penalty feels like it is deeply rooted in both. The heavy-handedness of it feels like someone insisted that Blizzard make an example of Blitzchung, not only to discourage others from similar acts in the future but also to appease those upset by the outburst itself.”
Kibler, 39, has been professional card game player for more than two decades, with multiple Hearthstone and Magic: The Gathering tournament trophies. He’s also a regular caster and commentator.
“That kind of appeasement is simply not something I can in good conscience be associated with,” he added in his blog. “When I learned about the ruling, I reached out to Blizzard and informed them that I no longer feel comfortable casting the Grandmasters finals at BlizzCon. I will not be a smiling face on camera that tacitly endorses this decision. Unless something changes, I will have no involvement in Grandmasters moving forward.”
Oh, a man with principles, that's cool. I hope more will follow.
On October 10 2019 05:33 chuchuchu wrote: Even Wikipedia has debates about whether there is a massacre in Tiananmen (1989).
There are no debates on Wikipedia about whether the massacre happened. People are allowed to debate on the wiki debate page, and on there anyone and whomever can say whatever the heck they please. That never makes it onto the actual article itself, which requires sources for everything you post.
And there are plenty of sources for Tiananmen square. There's fucking photos of it! And they have existed since before Photoshop was a thing.
Are you questioning my ability to use the network?
And thanks for making me google these for you. They make me sick to my stomach.
There are more, btw. Any google search will do. They are not censored over here (yet)
The "tank man" is from the day after the massacre, not from the massacre itself.
Yes. A mess after a large-scale rally. What is the photo of the slaughter, I tell you, just like the US military in Iraq and Afghanistan. Blood and corpses are everywhere. It is not the mess left by those who eat and drink Lazar in the square. I tell you what is the slaughter. This is a photo of the US military in Vietnam. Take a good look. Of course you can also think that this is a fake. But it's much more convincing than the photos of your ordinary soldiers smiling.
On October 10 2019 05:33 chuchuchu wrote: Even Wikipedia has debates about whether there is a massacre in Tiananmen (1989).
There are no debates on Wikipedia about whether the massacre happened. People are allowed to debate on the wiki debate page, and on there anyone and whomever can say whatever the heck they please. That never makes it onto the actual article itself, which requires sources for everything you post.
And there are plenty of sources for Tiananmen square. There's fucking photos of it! And they have existed since before Photoshop was a thing.
Are you questioning my ability to use the network?
However, it seems that it is hard to say clearly with Westerners and whites. After all, it is a country that relies on the slave trade and the ethnic groups of Africa and the Americas are extinct.
I would like to know that Americans are afraid when they are lying on the land where Indians and blacks are buried.
On October 10 2019 01:44 Wombat_NI wrote: [quote] Why not?
National self-determination is a key principle of geopolitics in the modern era.
Considering a bomb blew in the windows of my house when I was but a babe, I’m quite happy that the United States interceded and helped facilitate a peace here that respected both of the national identities in our wee country.
I would personally like to see more of China and its culture emerge onto the world stage, an old and venerable culture indeed, whose people have accomplished remarkable things in the last few decades especially.
If it’s by trampling on everyone and expecting Westerners to bend to their whims and where criticism is construed as a grievous insult then, no thanks.
When you think so, have you ever asked about the thoughts of ordinary Chinese?.
I hope you understand that while this is an interesting conversation, your views are inherently skewed by the propaganda you've been fed every day. We know how the Chinese media works (and it's not just China btw. America has much of the same problems, and most of us here do recognise it as such). You have already made made several false statements and made comparisons that does not make sense (Comparing China to England because England has a mock Queen for instance). As such everything you say will be taken with the biggest grain of salt imaginable
I do think it's interesting what the ordinary Chinese thinks, but it truthfully doesn't matter. You don't get to commit human rights violations and consider it ok because "The ordinary Chinese thinks so". Guess who doesn't think it's ok? Hong Kong and its citizens.
Very interesting, wrong comparison I just want to show that some forms of democracy and freedom will change, just as discrimination against blacks is definitely not one of freedom of speech in the United States. Although Martin Luther King was killed. Similarly, China's democracy and freedom are not so much the same as the United States, because the so-called autocracy and dictator seem to be like the Queen of England and the Emperor of Japan.
And when you talk about it, we should think about Hong Kong and its citizens. I am very eager to ask, do you know how many Hong Kong people participated in this Chinese National Day celebration? Including young people, college students, government officials, police, famous stars, and ordinary people. Do you think we should think about Hong Kong people, then do you know how many people in Hong Kong support the police parade? The police in Hong Kong, the government in Hong Kong, Hong Kong, so many condemns the violent protesters, and the ordinary people, shouting at the bbc reporters, this is Hong Kong, China, the taxi driver who supports the law revision, isn't it Hong Kong?
What you see seems to be the collective public opinion of Hong Kong, actually because those people have amplified this reaction through radical methods.
Think about it, if it is really a problem of the society and the Chinese government, the Hong Kong government, the ordinary people of Hong Kong (Is it not ordinary people and the grassroots officials?) Are these attitudes still not showing anything? Think about how good the credibility of the Hong Kong government is, and the same group of people are not trusted now.
The vast majority of protesters on the streets of Hong Kong are college students, young people, and young unemployed people. Is this a normal antibody or a collective carnival of young people, like an American youth who likes to take drugs?
China has experienced two very painful students, and the young people have dominated the political violent protests, almost smashing the entire country. However, these protests did not make more than a billion people ignorant, and the ordinary Chinese who were at a loss knew how to live well.
The Chinese have supported all the legal acts of Hong Kong and have wanted to split China and Hong Kong for many years. There is nothing too fierce.
We support Hong Kong, support democracy, support freedom, and even to some extent, support universal suffrage in Hong Kong.
However, what you have to understand is what is the slogan of Hong Kong's independence and violence? This is what the Hong Kong player and the NBA rocket manager said.
This is also why the Chinese currently call it a terrorist, because terrorists in the Middle East often call themselves freedom fighters.
If Hong Kong, China, is not dominated by the majority of Chinese people and by the majority of Hong Kong people, then who will decide?
Can Texas and California declare independence today and expel all blacks and people from other states？
So，why China give up HK？and Violent protestors demanding the expulsion of mainlanders？
In mainland China, Hong Kong people's bad reputation, sense of geographical superiority and discrimination against mainlanders are the main reasons。
(you can find it in many Hong Kong movies，In mainland China, Hong Kong people's bad reputation, sense of geographical superiority and discrimination against mainlanders are the main reasons (you can find out from many Hong Kong movies, including asking mainlanders if they have seen Apple phones made in China, and mocking the mainland for lack of high-rise power and modern technology, the same thing is still happening to Chinese people in Europe, the United States, etc.)It used to be Korea and Japan.).
You bring up valid points, but what you seem to miss out on is how this all started in the first place. There is currently a Sino-British joint declaration agreement between China and the UK dated back in 1984 and went into effect in 1997 stating that HK will have its own government, is able to pass its own laws, and that their way of life would not change for 50 years. You can read a bit on that agreement here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-British_Joint_Declaration. This means that in this agreement, China agreed that its PRC principles would not be practiced in HK until 2047.
Despite this agreement, in 2014, China proposed a reform to HK's electoral system, a clear infringement of the agreement. Since China agreed that HK could remain autonomous and have authority over their own government, then why is China screening candidates for HK's Chief Executive? This started around 2014 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests), and afterwards the British Foreign Office announced that Chinese officials now treat this declaration as void. You say China support HK's democracy, then why not let the HK'ers elect who they want, instead of screening who they want the HK people to elect? The HK'ers are upset because they were promised 50 years, but China is trying to impose only 22 years into the treaty. Does this mean China's words aren't even worth 50% of what they put on papers?
So flash forward to the current protest, how did it start? Well, China wanted to pass an extradite bill in HK, another infringement of the current agreement. HK'ers did not want this law, which they are within their own rights to deny since China agreed it will not impose, yet China still adamantly demand that this law be passed. If you look over at the 5 demands HK is currently protesting for, they are extremely reasonable given that China started this by breaking their words.
1. Full withdrawal of the extradition bill - Very valid demand, considering China signed an agreement that they will not be imposing their laws in HK until 2047. Last I checked, it's only 2019.
2. Inquiry into police brutality - Also valid, the people would like to investigate police's conduct. The police are meant to protect the people, not beat them up when they are protesting.
3. Retracting the classification of protesters as rioters - This started because China broke its words, so the people were upset and protested. Had China not broke its words, this wouldn't have happened. The people marched because China lied, not because they randomly rioted out of no where. This point can be a case by case basis with some standards since I understand not all protesters are good, some can be destructive, and we should judge them fairly.
4. Amnesty for arrested protesters - Same as point 3.
5. Dual universal suffrage, for both their Legislative and Chief Executive - Again, China signed an agreement that allows the HK'ers to manage their own government. If they are true to their words, let the HK'ers decide how they want their government to be ran.
My main point is that HK originally didn't protest for independence. This was NOT how the protest started. They started because China lied and backed out of their own words only 22 years into a 50 years signed agreement. It is only escalating because instead of admitting they were in the wrong, China cracked down on the HK citizens. HK citizens now are entertaining independence because they realized Mainland China does not keep its word. To use a Starcraft analogy, this is similar to Mengsk, Reynor, and Kerrigan working together, yet Mengsk abandoned Kerrigan on that one planet (forgot the name). When Reynor became rightfully pissed for what Mengsk did and turned on him, Mengsk called Reynor a terrorist. China is pulling a Mengsk right now.
If China is true to its words. Come back in 28 years and let the HK'ers do what they want to do with their government for now.
1. China hopes to sign extradition regulations with Hong Kong (extending criminal offenders because there have been criminals who have committed murder and rape in mainland China and have been cast into Hong Kong. The Chinese government and other countries such as the United States also have extradition regulations, and the Hong Kong government has other regions. The state has extradition regulations). Why is it rejected? This is not because mainland China requires the implementation of laws in Hong Kong, but hopes to sign regulations with Hong Kong. This is actually very strange. It is actually an agreement between a country and a country within a country.
2. I hope that you can read the Sino-British Joint Declaration carefully. He has not given the British any rights after this. You can blame the Chinese government, but because of this, I think other countries are involved. This is still the Beijing government of China and the Hong Kong region. problem.
In addition, the Chinese government's commitment is to keep Hong Kong unchanged for 50 years. I don't know how you understand it. I have two thoughts. One is to continue Hong Kong before the colony in 1997, and the second is to follow the basic law after 1997. Hong Kong. Before 1997, Hong Kong was a colony. Hong Kong people did not even have British nationality. The leaders of Hong Kong were all British whites. They were also British nationals, both the first and the second, including the Hong Kong Constitution, the Sino-British Joint Declaration. During the British colonial period, there was no universal suffrage. I don't know where Hong Kong's universal suffrage comes from. This violates the Constitution of Hong Kong - the Basic Law. In addition, without universal suffrage, it cannot mean that they have no democracy. Hong Kong's politics is closer to the Swiss political system, and each leader does not adopt the Swiss rotation system.
Keeping it for 50 years, isn't it just that there is no universal suffrage? Once the universal suffrage is not a violation of the China Commitment and the Sino-British Joint Declaration, and the Hong Kong Basic Law? Although I think that Hong Kong has been harming itself for 50 years, the development of first-tier cities in China is much better than that of Hong Kong. For me, I have lived in Shanghai for a long time, and Hong Kong is like a rural area. Of course, I am not actually, most of them. This is also true in Europe, and I have a stark contrast to the views of Japanese cities.
3. The Chinese government of Beijing and all Chinese have never opposed liberal democracy and legal protests. However, after the Cultural Revolution, the Chinese were sensitive to the protests because we realized that such collective behavior would often evolve into violence. For example, China’s previous protests, the US bombing of the Yugoslav embassy, and Japan’s activities to commemorate the death of soldiers in World War II. This kind of parade in China has produced extreme violence, as happened in Hong Kong.
If you don't trust the Chinese and don't trust the Chinese government, don't you believe that the Hong Kong government and the Hong Kong police, which have always been highly praised, don't believe it? Don't you believe in Western media? Go look for their evaluation of the Hong Kong police and the Hong Kong government in history.
4. Special criminals are not advisable. Think about the United States, but the country with the highest proportion of prison population. Of course, I don't want China to become the United States.
But think about it. There are many British nationals in the Hong Kong police, white people (maybe I think you still don't believe in the yellow race, but I don't think it is racist). Hong Kong's judicial system, so the judges are British nationality, Australian nationality, 90% of judges are white.
You should trust them, not a group of unemployed people, a group of young people who have taken a poison and drink alcohol and have sex on the roadside (although you call it freedom, but often these are blocked by neutral media).
Opposite to these violent protesters are peaceful protesters who have long since left the protest, and supporters who support the police, support the Hong Kong government, and support the Chinese government.
They are more numerous, but unfortunately they need to work and they do not use violence. So it seems to be weak, and because many of them are older people (you should have heard of Hong Kong's aging), they are not very familiar with the Internet, and the Internet is now a Z-age person (in fact, 1995-2000) Born person).
5. Why did they protest? Quite simply, young people can't find a job without a way out, and they are poor. The long-term segregation policy with mainland China discriminates against mainland Chinese people and believes that they are all poor people, as whites discriminate against black people.
Hong Kong knows that Hong Kong is bought by Li Ka-shing, and that the Chinese government cannot interfere and support socialism. Everyone has food and housing.
Later, the economic decline of Western society, if you are a European, there should be experience, the US economy has recently grown, but it is also uncomfortable. After the 2008 financial turmoil, it has been declining for a long time.
China is getting better and better. When China gets better, when they find that the Chinese who once earned 200 yuan a month have the same income and even more money, they find that they can’t be like the colonial era. Next, when it came to China, it became a millionaire, went to bed with more girls, and bought more luxurious cosmetics.
So I hope to return to the colonial era and pass violence. (Their slogan is what you saw in this Hong Kong player and the NBA), by robbing mobile phone stores, selling them online, by raising the flags of the United States and the United Kingdom.
I saw Swedes, and I think I should understand why, academically, the Sedgmo syndrome.
Perhaps Westerners believe that the colonial era is very glorious.
"don't you believe that the Hong Kong government and the Hong Kong police, which have always been highly praised" "Why did they protest? Quite simply, young people can't find a job without a way out, and they are poor. The long-term segregation policy with mainland China discriminates against mainland Chinese people and believes that they are all poor people, as whites discriminate against black people."
This is trolling for sure... I can hardly find any other explanations.
Oh, poor man. In fact, it is very simple. You only need to use Google to search for the gap between the rich and the poor in Hong Kong.
Have you been to Hong Kong and China? I am very familiar with it.
Yeah yeah I can find Gini index for every country in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality But why do you think that's the reason of the protest? Where did you find that? Who told you that? You are very familiar with it but you don't know the reason?
After removing the tax and welfare transfers, Hong Kong’s Gini index was as high as 0.54. If you have been to Chicago and New York, think about where the tramp is, social security (Hong Kong people want to thank the Hong Kong police for their efforts)
In addition, you should check that the top ten billionaires in Hong Kong account for Hong Kong's GDP (more than 35%). The disparity between the rich and the poor in Hong Kong has been criticized by the United Nations. If you can visit Hong Kong's own website
You will find that Hong Kong officially announced that there are 1.3 million poor people in 7.6 million people in Hong Kong. Perhaps you should use Google to search for the poor in Hong Kong directly, or go to Hong Kong in person. Take a look at the slums in the bustling city. (The slums in mainland China have long since disappeared)
Hong Kong is an area without a universal retirement protection system. It is well developed, but his university enrollment rate is only 20%. This is the famous ten universities in Hong Kong.
Hong Kong is a developed region and an unbalanced region. You should probably look at the encyclopedia about Li Ka-shing and see his property. We call him Lee half HK (Lee half HK)
Chuchuchu's posts are so hard to understand - can see him trying really hard with google translate. One thing is quite clear - the majority HK people definitely do not support the police. The support for the government/leader/police in HK has reached an all time low. And yes it's done by a reputable organisation and has traditionally been neutral in these matters.
A lot of of the so called "police supporters/govenrnment supporters" get paid to go on these demonstrations...
Have someone stated that the same happened with the NBA? The coach of the Rockets made almost the same comment but the NBA stated that they supported the coach free of speach. China canceled the games that where going to be held in its country.
Of course this has an impact in future NBA endevours in China but remains a reliable company for its workers.
On October 10 2019 04:19 whitehat511 wrote: You've got to love all the irony of all these Americans and Europeans throwing around accusations that the Chinese government has committed atrocities. You know what they say about people in glass houses.
I dont understand people like you, why would u make an account just to argue about chinese atrocities on TL.net of all places?
Maybe it is his/her job to do so. It is not the only account created only for arguing in this thread.
OK maybe I was wrong, maybe the big machine does care about TL forum... It feels like the comments under CCTV channel on youtube. You click on any of the accounts, and you will see that it's created in 1 day and just to post the only comment.
In fact, I have already talked about it. If you are a manager, you will find that I registered in the GvW competition in Korea. Because I want to vote for people. As for why I don't post, it is because of English problems. We are more accustomed to being active in China's own Chinese forum. Is there anything wrong with it?
As for why I will post this time because of the website https://www.rankedftw.com/. Some people have changed the China region (China mainland server) in the StarCraft area to the Hong Kong regional flag, and the Hong Kong name. I don't know Western culture and values.
But this matter has already been debated in the Chinese forum in China. And this thing itself does not respect others
We don't want to see Blizzard or StarCraft become the victim of the next political struggle.
We love the NBA and love StarCraft, but we really can't accept such an offense.
If I support K.K.K today, will you support my freedom of speech? I am afraid that the United States will refuse entry.
"We don't want to see Blizzard or StarCraft become the victim of the next political struggle." Then this is the wrong place to go. If people go against Blizzard because of Hearthstone, you can't save it by arguing on a Starcraft forum. There's not much of attention here. The only helpful thing is that you may have a chance to improve your English. Nothing about people's decision.
Zhèxiē rén nándào bùshì měiguó zhèngfǔ gǔchuī de? Nín tiānzhēn de rènwéi bùshì yīn wéi zhōng měi màoyì zhàn? Zhè jiùshì zhōng měi zhēngduān dì yīgè suōyǐng bàle.
Yīn wéi shì xiǎng yào pòshǐ zhōngguó qūfú, měiguó yíngdé màoyì zhàn. Zhōngguó rén běnshēn fùchū gèng duō ér dédào de dōngxī, yě méiyǒule.
Hěn kěxiào, zhōngguó bùshì nàxiē ruòxiǎo de guójiā, suǒyǐ bùnéng shǐyòng jūnduì. Měiguó rén xiànzài kěnéng duì tā de jūnduì fēicháng shīwàng ba. Jíbiàn shì jūnfèi kāizhī děngyú qítā guójiā zhī hé 展开 238/5000 is it? Do you think it is not a political struggle? Indeed, many Westerners still think of those slogans, those who mask K.K.K with a mask for freedom. There are many people who claim freedom, such as the freedom fighters in the Middle East. Do you support these terrorists?
Are these people not advocated by the US government? Do you really think that it is not because of the Sino-US trade war? This is a microcosm of the Sino-US dispute.
Because it wants to force China to yield, the United States wins a trade war. The Chinese themselves have paid more and they have nothing to gain.
It is ridiculous that China is not a weak country, so it is impossible to use the army. The Americans may now be very disappointed with his army. Even military spending is equal to the sum of other countries.
On October 10 2019 05:33 chuchuchu wrote: Even Wikipedia has debates about whether there is a massacre in Tiananmen (1989).
There are no debates on Wikipedia about whether the massacre happened. People are allowed to debate on the wiki debate page, and on there anyone and whomever can say whatever the heck they please. That never makes it onto the actual article itself, which requires sources for everything you post.
And there are plenty of sources for Tiananmen square. There's fucking photos of it! And they have existed since before Photoshop was a thing.
Are you questioning my ability to use the network?
However, it seems that it is hard to say clearly with Westerners and whites. After all, it is a country that relies on the slave trade and the ethnic groups of Africa and the Americas are extinct.
I would like to know that Americans are afraid when they are lying on the land where Indians and blacks are buried.
So far you have compared the Hong Kong protesters with the KKK, I think you called me stupid, it's hard to know for sure with your English, you are denying the tiananmen square massacre happened and now you start to get racist about "whites". I wonder where you'll go next!
On October 10 2019 05:33 chuchuchu wrote: Even Wikipedia has debates about whether there is a massacre in Tiananmen (1989).
There are no debates on Wikipedia about whether the massacre happened. People are allowed to debate on the wiki debate page, and on there anyone and whomever can say whatever the heck they please. That never makes it onto the actual article itself, which requires sources for everything you post.
And there are plenty of sources for Tiananmen square. There's fucking photos of it! And they have existed since before Photoshop was a thing.
Are you questioning my ability to use the network?
And thanks for making me google these for you. They make me sick to my stomach.
There are more, btw. Any google search will do. They are not censored over here (yet)
The "tank man" is from the day after the massacre, not from the massacre itself.
Yes. A mess after a large-scale rally. What is the photo of the slaughter, I tell you, just like the US military in Iraq and Afghanistan. Blood and corpses are everywhere. It is not the mess left by those who eat and drink Lazar in the square. I tell you what is the slaughter. This is a photo of the US military in Vietnam. Take a good look. Of course you can also think that this is a fake. But it's much more convincing than the photos of your ordinary soldiers smiling.
LOLOL Is this guy seriously comparing Tiananmen square massacre (Government targetting their own students/civil activists) to Iraq/Afghanistan (warzone)??
The communist part is well known for killing their own citizens... Going back a bit we can look at the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural revolution..
Anyway this guys is clearly a troll who's closely following the chinese state media's positions so yeh won't reply anymore....
On October 10 2019 02:04 chuchuchu wrote: [quote] When you think so, have you ever asked about the thoughts of ordinary Chinese?.
I hope you understand that while this is an interesting conversation, your views are inherently skewed by the propaganda you've been fed every day. We know how the Chinese media works (and it's not just China btw. America has much of the same problems, and most of us here do recognise it as such). You have already made made several false statements and made comparisons that does not make sense (Comparing China to England because England has a mock Queen for instance). As such everything you say will be taken with the biggest grain of salt imaginable
I do think it's interesting what the ordinary Chinese thinks, but it truthfully doesn't matter. You don't get to commit human rights violations and consider it ok because "The ordinary Chinese thinks so". Guess who doesn't think it's ok? Hong Kong and its citizens.
Very interesting, wrong comparison I just want to show that some forms of democracy and freedom will change, just as discrimination against blacks is definitely not one of freedom of speech in the United States. Although Martin Luther King was killed. Similarly, China's democracy and freedom are not so much the same as the United States, because the so-called autocracy and dictator seem to be like the Queen of England and the Emperor of Japan.
And when you talk about it, we should think about Hong Kong and its citizens. I am very eager to ask, do you know how many Hong Kong people participated in this Chinese National Day celebration? Including young people, college students, government officials, police, famous stars, and ordinary people. Do you think we should think about Hong Kong people, then do you know how many people in Hong Kong support the police parade? The police in Hong Kong, the government in Hong Kong, Hong Kong, so many condemns the violent protesters, and the ordinary people, shouting at the bbc reporters, this is Hong Kong, China, the taxi driver who supports the law revision, isn't it Hong Kong?
What you see seems to be the collective public opinion of Hong Kong, actually because those people have amplified this reaction through radical methods.
Think about it, if it is really a problem of the society and the Chinese government, the Hong Kong government, the ordinary people of Hong Kong (Is it not ordinary people and the grassroots officials?) Are these attitudes still not showing anything? Think about how good the credibility of the Hong Kong government is, and the same group of people are not trusted now.
The vast majority of protesters on the streets of Hong Kong are college students, young people, and young unemployed people. Is this a normal antibody or a collective carnival of young people, like an American youth who likes to take drugs?
China has experienced two very painful students, and the young people have dominated the political violent protests, almost smashing the entire country. However, these protests did not make more than a billion people ignorant, and the ordinary Chinese who were at a loss knew how to live well.
The Chinese have supported all the legal acts of Hong Kong and have wanted to split China and Hong Kong for many years. There is nothing too fierce.
We support Hong Kong, support democracy, support freedom, and even to some extent, support universal suffrage in Hong Kong.
However, what you have to understand is what is the slogan of Hong Kong's independence and violence? This is what the Hong Kong player and the NBA rocket manager said.
This is also why the Chinese currently call it a terrorist, because terrorists in the Middle East often call themselves freedom fighters.
If Hong Kong, China, is not dominated by the majority of Chinese people and by the majority of Hong Kong people, then who will decide?
Can Texas and California declare independence today and expel all blacks and people from other states？
So，why China give up HK？and Violent protestors demanding the expulsion of mainlanders？
In mainland China, Hong Kong people's bad reputation, sense of geographical superiority and discrimination against mainlanders are the main reasons。
(you can find it in many Hong Kong movies，In mainland China, Hong Kong people's bad reputation, sense of geographical superiority and discrimination against mainlanders are the main reasons (you can find out from many Hong Kong movies, including asking mainlanders if they have seen Apple phones made in China, and mocking the mainland for lack of high-rise power and modern technology, the same thing is still happening to Chinese people in Europe, the United States, etc.)It used to be Korea and Japan.).
You bring up valid points, but what you seem to miss out on is how this all started in the first place. There is currently a Sino-British joint declaration agreement between China and the UK dated back in 1984 and went into effect in 1997 stating that HK will have its own government, is able to pass its own laws, and that their way of life would not change for 50 years. You can read a bit on that agreement here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-British_Joint_Declaration. This means that in this agreement, China agreed that its PRC principles would not be practiced in HK until 2047.
Despite this agreement, in 2014, China proposed a reform to HK's electoral system, a clear infringement of the agreement. Since China agreed that HK could remain autonomous and have authority over their own government, then why is China screening candidates for HK's Chief Executive? This started around 2014 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests), and afterwards the British Foreign Office announced that Chinese officials now treat this declaration as void. You say China support HK's democracy, then why not let the HK'ers elect who they want, instead of screening who they want the HK people to elect? The HK'ers are upset because they were promised 50 years, but China is trying to impose only 22 years into the treaty. Does this mean China's words aren't even worth 50% of what they put on papers?
So flash forward to the current protest, how did it start? Well, China wanted to pass an extradite bill in HK, another infringement of the current agreement. HK'ers did not want this law, which they are within their own rights to deny since China agreed it will not impose, yet China still adamantly demand that this law be passed. If you look over at the 5 demands HK is currently protesting for, they are extremely reasonable given that China started this by breaking their words.
1. Full withdrawal of the extradition bill - Very valid demand, considering China signed an agreement that they will not be imposing their laws in HK until 2047. Last I checked, it's only 2019.
2. Inquiry into police brutality - Also valid, the people would like to investigate police's conduct. The police are meant to protect the people, not beat them up when they are protesting.
3. Retracting the classification of protesters as rioters - This started because China broke its words, so the people were upset and protested. Had China not broke its words, this wouldn't have happened. The people marched because China lied, not because they randomly rioted out of no where. This point can be a case by case basis with some standards since I understand not all protesters are good, some can be destructive, and we should judge them fairly.
4. Amnesty for arrested protesters - Same as point 3.
5. Dual universal suffrage, for both their Legislative and Chief Executive - Again, China signed an agreement that allows the HK'ers to manage their own government. If they are true to their words, let the HK'ers decide how they want their government to be ran.
My main point is that HK originally didn't protest for independence. This was NOT how the protest started. They started because China lied and backed out of their own words only 22 years into a 50 years signed agreement. It is only escalating because instead of admitting they were in the wrong, China cracked down on the HK citizens. HK citizens now are entertaining independence because they realized Mainland China does not keep its word. To use a Starcraft analogy, this is similar to Mengsk, Reynor, and Kerrigan working together, yet Mengsk abandoned Kerrigan on that one planet (forgot the name). When Reynor became rightfully pissed for what Mengsk did and turned on him, Mengsk called Reynor a terrorist. China is pulling a Mengsk right now.
If China is true to its words. Come back in 28 years and let the HK'ers do what they want to do with their government for now.
1. China hopes to sign extradition regulations with Hong Kong (extending criminal offenders because there have been criminals who have committed murder and rape in mainland China and have been cast into Hong Kong. The Chinese government and other countries such as the United States also have extradition regulations, and the Hong Kong government has other regions. The state has extradition regulations). Why is it rejected? This is not because mainland China requires the implementation of laws in Hong Kong, but hopes to sign regulations with Hong Kong. This is actually very strange. It is actually an agreement between a country and a country within a country.
2. I hope that you can read the Sino-British Joint Declaration carefully. He has not given the British any rights after this. You can blame the Chinese government, but because of this, I think other countries are involved. This is still the Beijing government of China and the Hong Kong region. problem.
In addition, the Chinese government's commitment is to keep Hong Kong unchanged for 50 years. I don't know how you understand it. I have two thoughts. One is to continue Hong Kong before the colony in 1997, and the second is to follow the basic law after 1997. Hong Kong. Before 1997, Hong Kong was a colony. Hong Kong people did not even have British nationality. The leaders of Hong Kong were all British whites. They were also British nationals, both the first and the second, including the Hong Kong Constitution, the Sino-British Joint Declaration. During the British colonial period, there was no universal suffrage. I don't know where Hong Kong's universal suffrage comes from. This violates the Constitution of Hong Kong - the Basic Law. In addition, without universal suffrage, it cannot mean that they have no democracy. Hong Kong's politics is closer to the Swiss political system, and each leader does not adopt the Swiss rotation system.
Keeping it for 50 years, isn't it just that there is no universal suffrage? Once the universal suffrage is not a violation of the China Commitment and the Sino-British Joint Declaration, and the Hong Kong Basic Law? Although I think that Hong Kong has been harming itself for 50 years, the development of first-tier cities in China is much better than that of Hong Kong. For me, I have lived in Shanghai for a long time, and Hong Kong is like a rural area. Of course, I am not actually, most of them. This is also true in Europe, and I have a stark contrast to the views of Japanese cities.
3. The Chinese government of Beijing and all Chinese have never opposed liberal democracy and legal protests. However, after the Cultural Revolution, the Chinese were sensitive to the protests because we realized that such collective behavior would often evolve into violence. For example, China’s previous protests, the US bombing of the Yugoslav embassy, and Japan’s activities to commemorate the death of soldiers in World War II. This kind of parade in China has produced extreme violence, as happened in Hong Kong.
If you don't trust the Chinese and don't trust the Chinese government, don't you believe that the Hong Kong government and the Hong Kong police, which have always been highly praised, don't believe it? Don't you believe in Western media? Go look for their evaluation of the Hong Kong police and the Hong Kong government in history.
4. Special criminals are not advisable. Think about the United States, but the country with the highest proportion of prison population. Of course, I don't want China to become the United States.
But think about it. There are many British nationals in the Hong Kong police, white people (maybe I think you still don't believe in the yellow race, but I don't think it is racist). Hong Kong's judicial system, so the judges are British nationality, Australian nationality, 90% of judges are white.
You should trust them, not a group of unemployed people, a group of young people who have taken a poison and drink alcohol and have sex on the roadside (although you call it freedom, but often these are blocked by neutral media).
Opposite to these violent protesters are peaceful protesters who have long since left the protest, and supporters who support the police, support the Hong Kong government, and support the Chinese government.
They are more numerous, but unfortunately they need to work and they do not use violence. So it seems to be weak, and because many of them are older people (you should have heard of Hong Kong's aging), they are not very familiar with the Internet, and the Internet is now a Z-age person (in fact, 1995-2000) Born person).
5. Why did they protest? Quite simply, young people can't find a job without a way out, and they are poor. The long-term segregation policy with mainland China discriminates against mainland Chinese people and believes that they are all poor people, as whites discriminate against black people.
Hong Kong knows that Hong Kong is bought by Li Ka-shing, and that the Chinese government cannot interfere and support socialism. Everyone has food and housing.
Later, the economic decline of Western society, if you are a European, there should be experience, the US economy has recently grown, but it is also uncomfortable. After the 2008 financial turmoil, it has been declining for a long time.
China is getting better and better. When China gets better, when they find that the Chinese who once earned 200 yuan a month have the same income and even more money, they find that they can’t be like the colonial era. Next, when it came to China, it became a millionaire, went to bed with more girls, and bought more luxurious cosmetics.
So I hope to return to the colonial era and pass violence. (Their slogan is what you saw in this Hong Kong player and the NBA), by robbing mobile phone stores, selling them online, by raising the flags of the United States and the United Kingdom.
I saw Swedes, and I think I should understand why, academically, the Sedgmo syndrome.
Perhaps Westerners believe that the colonial era is very glorious.
"don't you believe that the Hong Kong government and the Hong Kong police, which have always been highly praised" "Why did they protest? Quite simply, young people can't find a job without a way out, and they are poor. The long-term segregation policy with mainland China discriminates against mainland Chinese people and believes that they are all poor people, as whites discriminate against black people."
This is trolling for sure... I can hardly find any other explanations.
Oh, poor man. In fact, it is very simple. You only need to use Google to search for the gap between the rich and the poor in Hong Kong.
Have you been to Hong Kong and China? I am very familiar with it.
Yeah yeah I can find Gini index for every country in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality But why do you think that's the reason of the protest? Where did you find that? Who told you that? You are very familiar with it but you don't know the reason?
After removing the tax and welfare transfers, Hong Kong’s Gini index was as high as 0.54. If you have been to Chicago and New York, think about where the tramp is, social security (Hong Kong people want to thank the Hong Kong police for their efforts)
In addition, you should check that the top ten billionaires in Hong Kong account for Hong Kong's GDP (more than 35%). The disparity between the rich and the poor in Hong Kong has been criticized by the United Nations. If you can visit Hong Kong's own website
You will find that Hong Kong officially announced that there are 1.3 million poor people in 7.6 million people in Hong Kong. Perhaps you should use Google to search for the poor in Hong Kong directly, or go to Hong Kong in person. Take a look at the slums in the bustling city. (The slums in mainland China have long since disappeared)
Hong Kong is an area without a universal retirement protection system. It is well developed, but his university enrollment rate is only 20%. This is the famous ten universities in Hong Kong.
Hong Kong is a developed region and an unbalanced region. You should probably look at the encyclopedia about Li Ka-shing and see his property. We call him Lee half HK (Lee half HK)
Chuchuchu's posts are so hard to understand - can see him trying really hard with google translate. One thing is quite clear - the majority HK people definitely do not support the police. The support for the government/leader/police in HK has reached an all time low. And yes it's done by a reputable organisation and has traditionally been neutral in these matters.
A lot of of the so called "police supporters/govenrnment supporters" get paid to go on these demonstrations...
Yes, this is why I said that the Western media is very interesting. Look at this site, of course, although you claim that you are only there, there is no review, but the content of these sites will never appear in front of you. See how many people are paying to tens of thousands of people to participate in such a rally?
And it is clear that the support of the government is a certain age, most people are 30-60 years old. They need work to support themselves, people eat every day, and many of them still support the students who participated in the protest. You can look for photos or evidence at will. You will find that the vast majority of protesters are young people in their 20s. Can't you explain the problem?
These people represent Hong Kong? Unemployed people can also represent Hong Kong?
On October 10 2019 05:33 chuchuchu wrote: Even Wikipedia has debates about whether there is a massacre in Tiananmen (1989).
There are no debates on Wikipedia about whether the massacre happened. People are allowed to debate on the wiki debate page, and on there anyone and whomever can say whatever the heck they please. That never makes it onto the actual article itself, which requires sources for everything you post.
And there are plenty of sources for Tiananmen square. There's fucking photos of it! And they have existed since before Photoshop was a thing.
Are you questioning my ability to use the network?
However, it seems that it is hard to say clearly with Westerners and whites. After all, it is a country that relies on the slave trade and the ethnic groups of Africa and the Americas are extinct.
I would like to know that Americans are afraid when they are lying on the land where Indians and blacks are buried.
So far you have compared the Hong Kong protesters with the KKK, I think you called me stupid, it's hard to know for sure with your English, you are denying the tiananmen square massacre happened and now you start to get racist about "whites". I wonder where you'll go next!
He (or they) are going to present this thread to his boss and call it a day. Job done. Nobody defends any government as irrationally as this (new) user does unless it is his job. Please ignore him, propaganda and derailing opposing threads is his job.
On October 10 2019 05:33 chuchuchu wrote: Even Wikipedia has debates about whether there is a massacre in Tiananmen (1989).
There are no debates on Wikipedia about whether the massacre happened. People are allowed to debate on the wiki debate page, and on there anyone and whomever can say whatever the heck they please. That never makes it onto the actual article itself, which requires sources for everything you post.
And there are plenty of sources for Tiananmen square. There's fucking photos of it! And they have existed since before Photoshop was a thing.
Are you questioning my ability to use the network?
However, it seems that it is hard to say clearly with Westerners and whites. After all, it is a country that relies on the slave trade and the ethnic groups of Africa and the Americas are extinct.
I would like to know that Americans are afraid when they are lying on the land where Indians and blacks are buried.
So far you have compared the Hong Kong protesters with the KKK, I think you called me stupid, it's hard to know for sure with your English, you are denying the tiananmen square massacre happened and now you start to get racist about "whites". I wonder where you'll go next!
Westerners still believe that they are on the side of democracy and freedom. Instead of standing in the US-China trade war and the Sino-US dispute, it stands on the side of the United States. Hong Kong and the NBA are just a continuation of this struggle. You are like a high school student. Disappointed
Is the fact of the statement racial discrimination? very funny. Just like you won't praise me for accepting the Cultural Revolution. Is it freedom of speech? When things are reversed, when a Chinese person in turn accuses the West of being racist, it is brainwashed and persecuted. I am only suspecting the tears of the crocodile. Because Western society is the beneficiary of the collapse of Chinese society.
If I am racist, I will not mention that I love nasa and love Kennedy. As you are ridiculous about my remarks, I also treat your remarks like this.
You call me the AI of high school students. Indeed, because my native language is Chinese, using Google Translate allows me to express a lot of things faster. I at least think that my English is better than your Chinese.
Of course you won't care, but still laugh at my English. Emm, this is what I want to say. Because you are born to think that you are right, think that everyone should speak English and think that you are on the side of justice.
Yes, I said it is a fact, and you should believe in what I believe. It is not difficult to explain why there are always many missionaries in the West, and even in the most glorious time in history, the East did not send a missionary to the West.
On October 10 2019 01:12 chuchuchu wrote: All people are support freedom of speech and democracy,but Japan has a Emperor，England has a Queen，US and France dont have .The same thing looks different.
I can not for the life of me guess whether this is a troll, of if he's actually brainwashed enough to think that a totalitarian regime is the same as Japan and England because they have a hyped up Emperor/Queen who are as such in name only, and doesn't actually have any real power.
On October 10 2019 01:31 jy_9876543210 wrote: Well... he's just posting whatever he had learned. The big machine doesn't care about TL forum, it's too small. He just feels that he needs to do something to help no matter how little, although the entire post sounds worse than a high school essay...
You severely underestimate the Chinese troll farm. They care about your mom's Facebook posts.
Similarly, the Chinese also think that you have been brainwashed by the West. You often talk about freedom of speech and democracy. But when the Chinese spoke themselves, you said that the Chinese were wrong and the Chinese shut up. You always talk about your own thoughts and negate other thoughts. The Chinese never say to the TV that the American values are wrong and the Western social thoughts are wrong. American things, Americans are the masters. I want to ask, can Europeans make their own decisions? Can the British be the masters themselves?
I talk about Japan and the United Kingdom. If you think that countries like Japan and the United States are the same, I hope that you can learn more about Japanese society. For example, people who committed suicide because of the emperor's abdication.
I talked about Japan and the United Kingdom because, like other countries, they are democratic and free, even with emperors and queens. Similarly, the Chinese believe that they are also democratic and free, even if it does not seem to be at all.
But the truth is this. The British can't vote for the Queen. The Japanese can't decide the Emperor. On the contrary, the Japanese Emperor has great influence. Although the Japanese often deny this political issue, Japan's political arena is still a political continuation from the Meiji Restoration before World War II. Think about the Shinzo Abe family.
Instead of ridiculing China’s autocracy, is it also ridiculing Japan’s autocracy. I don't think anyone has ridiculed President Bush. I mean two President Bush.
I want to give an example. I don't know if you can understand. In the last US election, although more than half of the people supported Hillary, Trump was still elected to the US president because the state voted more.
One person, becoming the president of a country, even if he is only supported by half of the people. Is this democracy? Is this half the tyranny of the other half? Should the United States be divided into two countries, is Hillary and Trump half?
In addition, I really like Trump's make America great gain, but I remember that if there were any mistakes, there were many parades in the United States, and irony, against Teplang's words. Is this the embodiment of democracy and freedom of speech?
It doesn't matter if brainwashed people believe they are not brainwashed. If Chinese people believe they are not being manipulated they are simply manipulated into believing the are not manipulated. Ironic isn't it.
It is simple the people/organizations that try to limit knowledge and freedom of speech always do that because they have an agenda. Having an agenda means they want to control what you know because if they succeed in controlling what you know then they also by extension control what you believe.
China claiming that foreign news outlets are lying are simply another step in controling what the chinese people believe, because if only chinese news are regarded as trustworthy they control what you believe which means they control you.
All governments wants to do this to everyone, manipulation is simply what everyone does. However if you censor the internet and censor news and information you don't like then we live in a totalitarian state, like China.
From wiki: "Mainland Chinese Internet censorship programs have censored Web sites that include (among other things):[citation needed]
Web sites belonging to "outlawed" or suppressed groups, such as pro-democracy activists and Falun Gong. News sources that often cover topics that are considered defamatory against China, such as police brutality, the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests, freedom of speech, and democracy.[64] These sites include Voice of America and the Chinese edition of BBC News. Sites related to the Taiwanese government, media, or other organizations, including sites dedicated to religious content, and most large Taiwanese community websites or blogs. Web sites that contain anything the Chinese authorities regard as obscenity or pornography. Web sites relating to criminal activity. Sites linked with the Dalai Lama, his teachings or the International Tibet Independence Movement. Most blogging sites experience frequent or permanent outages. Web sites deemed as subversive. Other topics censored include: 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests, Xinjiang re-education camps, Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China, and more."
Another Chinese are brainwashed and CCP is evil post, yet again.
So you boldly claim that Chinese are so brainwashed they don't even know they are brainwashed. How do you know you are in a safe place where all of your informations from western media (especially wiki, which most Chinese people won't read and edit) are all correct fact and neutral.
It is just hilarious to see the people live outside of China and never visited China consider themselves more knowlegable about China than people actually living there, by only watching a few video clip and reading some poorly-based reports.
I am sorry, I understand you feel affronted, my reply was only directed at user chuchuchu. I don't really believe that chinese in general are brainwashed and I certainly don't think I know anything about your country or that all I know is right.
My point is that China as a country is heavily manipulating media, that is a fact there is no way around that. Censoring knowledge or opinion is only done as I explained to further an agenda. Therefore you cannot compare western media manipulation with chinese, it is like comparing a gun to a cannon. We have a free internet where anyone may say whatever they want and everyone is free to read whatever they want. That is a fact and it means arguing that we in the west are the manipulated ones is a moot point, it is true we are manipulated but we are still less manipulated then you.
On October 10 2019 03:08 chuchuchu wrote:
On October 10 2019 02:35 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 10 2019 02:23 chuchuchu wrote:
On October 10 2019 01:47 Excludos wrote:
On October 10 2019 01:12 chuchuchu wrote: All people are support freedom of speech and democracy,but Japan has a Emperor，England has a Queen，US and France dont have .The same thing looks different.
I can not for the life of me guess whether this is a troll, of if he's actually brainwashed enough to think that a totalitarian regime is the same as Japan and England because they have a hyped up Emperor/Queen who are as such in name only, and doesn't actually have any real power.
On October 10 2019 01:31 jy_9876543210 wrote: Well... he's just posting whatever he had learned. The big machine doesn't care about TL forum, it's too small. He just feels that he needs to do something to help no matter how little, although the entire post sounds worse than a high school essay...
You severely underestimate the Chinese troll farm. They care about your mom's Facebook posts.
Similarly, the Chinese also think that you have been brainwashed by the West. You often talk about freedom of speech and democracy. But when the Chinese spoke themselves, you said that the Chinese were wrong and the Chinese shut up. You always talk about your own thoughts and negate other thoughts. The Chinese never say to the TV that the American values are wrong and the Western social thoughts are wrong. American things, Americans are the masters. I want to ask, can Europeans make their own decisions? Can the British be the masters themselves?
I talk about Japan and the United Kingdom. If you think that countries like Japan and the United States are the same, I hope that you can learn more about Japanese society. For example, people who committed suicide because of the emperor's abdication.
I talked about Japan and the United Kingdom because, like other countries, they are democratic and free, even with emperors and queens. Similarly, the Chinese believe that they are also democratic and free, even if it does not seem to be at all.
But the truth is this. The British can't vote for the Queen. The Japanese can't decide the Emperor. On the contrary, the Japanese Emperor has great influence. Although the Japanese often deny this political issue, Japan's political arena is still a political continuation from the Meiji Restoration before World War II. Think about the Shinzo Abe family.
Instead of ridiculing China’s autocracy, is it also ridiculing Japan’s autocracy. I don't think anyone has ridiculed President Bush. I mean two President Bush.
I want to give an example. I don't know if you can understand. In the last US election, although more than half of the people supported Hillary, Trump was still elected to the US president because the state voted more.
One person, becoming the president of a country, even if he is only supported by half of the people. Is this democracy? Is this half the tyranny of the other half? Should the United States be divided into two countries, is Hillary and Trump half?
In addition, I really like Trump's make America great gain, but I remember that if there were any mistakes, there were many parades in the United States, and irony, against Teplang's words. Is this the embodiment of democracy and freedom of speech?
It doesn't matter if brainwashed people believe they are not brainwashed. If Chinese people believe they are not being manipulated they are simply manipulated into believing the are not manipulated. Ironic isn't it.
It is simple the people/organizations that try to limit knowledge and freedom of speech always do that because they have an agenda. Having an agenda means they want to control what you know because if they succeed in controlling what you know then they also by extension control what you believe.
China claiming that foreign news outlets are lying are simply another step in controling what the chinese people believe, because if only chinese news are regarded as trustworthy they control what you believe which means they control you.
All governments wants to do this to everyone, manipulation is simply what everyone does. However if you censor the internet and censor news and information you don't like then we live in a totalitarian state, like China.
From wiki: "Mainland Chinese Internet censorship programs have censored Web sites that include (among other things):[citation needed]
Web sites belonging to "outlawed" or suppressed groups, such as pro-democracy activists and Falun Gong. News sources that often cover topics that are considered defamatory against China, such as police brutality, the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests, freedom of speech, and democracy.[64] These sites include Voice of America and the Chinese edition of BBC News. Sites related to the Taiwanese government, media, or other organizations, including sites dedicated to religious content, and most large Taiwanese community websites or blogs. Web sites that contain anything the Chinese authorities regard as obscenity or pornography. Web sites relating to criminal activity. Sites linked with the Dalai Lama, his teachings or the International Tibet Independence Movement. Most blogging sites experience frequent or permanent outages. Web sites deemed as subversive. Other topics censored include: 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests, Xinjiang re-education camps, Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China, and more."
I don't want to talk about these issues, because your approach is not through personal experience, but the Western media. I can simply say a few things. You can go and find out, maybe there is a deeper feeling. 1. Falun Gong preaches that they can acquire the same abilities as Superman. They are basically seriously ill, and they don’t have to go to the hospital. They must respect the Lord as their father, obey all commands, and basically self-immolation. I have an uncle, because he have practiced Falun Gong and he was ridiculed by everyone around me. It is true that it is unbelievable that because of socialism, the Chinese are more convinced of science. 2. The problem of Tibet, the territorial issue need not be said more. The primitive religion of Tibet was ruled in Tibet. At that time, the Chinese Communist Party’s army hoped to peacefully reunite Tibet. However, they found that Tibetan religion actually practiced slavery. Tibet’s situation is like Leo. Pod II is like his Congolese Free State. Of course you see a kindly exile, telling you some mysterious oriental religious thoughts, but he never told you that he used to be a slave owner, using the religious utensils of the human skin, and the things like the sister drum. I hope that you will not be afraid at night. You can also check Mao Zedong's position in Tibet. You may not believe it. He is considered to be a generation of Tibetan religious leaders (there are paper documents, museums I see). 3. Organ problems. China is not a country that is always complete, or even a relatively complete law. We are working hard, but I think that China, which was chaotic years ago, is developing too fast, so we often say that we used In less than 30 years, it has gone through hundreds of years of Western history, and modern civilization and primitive agricultural civilization coexist. If you are curious, in the public network search, sell your kidneys to buy Apple mobile news, you may understand that organ problems are not government manipulation, but the product of low education, unsound laws, and chaotic times. It’s gone now, because everything has changed. The Chinese government does not need to buy and sell organs to make money. This is very naive. Do you think China is authoritarian? Only the government needs a word, where to buy and sell organs. 4, Beijing 1989, you can go to Wikipedia to see, because I also saw where, from a person who accepts Chinese culture, I will not believe that: I can not die, they can bleed, but I am going to the United States . There are also the same experiencers who said that the massacre did not exist. But does it exist? You can search for the complete video of the tank, which is the video of the person being taken away after the circumvention. You can also search for photos of some police and soldiers being burned on the flyover. It is true that they have treated people with restraint, but unfortunately people sometimes do not treat them with restraint, just like Hong Kong now.
I'm sorry but I don't care. The issues you describe above are topics that the Chinese government censor, either A) You have researched sources that are banned in your country and thus learned truths that your government wants to hide from you.
Or
B) You are writing the information that the Chinese goverment are feeding you while at the same time saying that it is not allowed to fact check this information.
So either you have broken your countries rules and gone out of your way to research what you are not allowed to research, which in and of itself is proof that you don't agree with the rules of your country. Or you are just ignorantly repeating the drivel spoonfed to your by the government.
Obviously, I am now active in the same environment as you. I don't know where we both have information asymmetry, or if you are serving the UK or the CIA, so you know something that won't be known to the public. You are using a limited amount of things you see in the Western media (in fact, most, not all) to question a person who has personal experience while living in China and the West, one that has access to almost all information networks (China) The network administrator is not scary for 20 years. At least I have downloaded some Japanese movies in the last 10 years, so you can imagine what we can find on the Chinese network.)
So what you see, in the media or on the internet, I have seen it. If you claim that you have more information than me. I can only think that it is like Marco Polo who once thought China is the country of gold.
And because there is something about China, so many Chinese are very interested in it, even when they are discussing with their parents, like a legendary novel.
However, he failed to launch a new Crusade through this statement (whether Westerners like the Eastern Expedition or launch a global war, this is a humorous ridicule, I hope you can understand and respect my values)
All I said was one thing, the chinese ban certain information and censor knowledge, his includes but is not limited to the internet and the great information wall of China. Since that is all I said and you strongly argue I don't know what I am talking about, are you denying the existence of internet censorship in china? It is merely the western media making up its existence, in reality no knowledge is banned in china the internet is free?
On October 10 2019 05:33 chuchuchu wrote: Even Wikipedia has debates about whether there is a massacre in Tiananmen (1989).
There are no debates on Wikipedia about whether the massacre happened. People are allowed to debate on the wiki debate page, and on there anyone and whomever can say whatever the heck they please. That never makes it onto the actual article itself, which requires sources for everything you post.
And there are plenty of sources for Tiananmen square. There's fucking photos of it! And they have existed since before Photoshop was a thing.
Are you questioning my ability to use the network?
However, it seems that it is hard to say clearly with Westerners and whites. After all, it is a country that relies on the slave trade and the ethnic groups of Africa and the Americas are extinct.
I would like to know that Americans are afraid when they are lying on the land where Indians and blacks are buried.
So far you have compared the Hong Kong protesters with the KKK, I think you called me stupid, it's hard to know for sure with your English, you are denying the tiananmen square massacre happened and now you start to get racist about "whites". I wonder where you'll go next!
He (or they) are going to present this thread to his boss and call it a day. Job done. Nobody defends any government as irrationally as this (new) user does unless it is his job. Please ignore him, propaganda and derailing opposing threads is his job.
Aww but it's funny :/
I mean I know what you are talking about but how is what this account is spewing in this thread in any way productive for the Chinese government? It is not exactly convincing anyone, for the most part it's just amusing people. Well me at least.
On October 10 2019 05:33 chuchuchu wrote: Even Wikipedia has debates about whether there is a massacre in Tiananmen (1989).
There are no debates on Wikipedia about whether the massacre happened. People are allowed to debate on the wiki debate page, and on there anyone and whomever can say whatever the heck they please. That never makes it onto the actual article itself, which requires sources for everything you post.
And there are plenty of sources for Tiananmen square. There's fucking photos of it! And they have existed since before Photoshop was a thing.
Are you questioning my ability to use the network?
However, it seems that it is hard to say clearly with Westerners and whites. After all, it is a country that relies on the slave trade and the ethnic groups of Africa and the Americas are extinct.
I would like to know that Americans are afraid when they are lying on the land where Indians and blacks are buried.
So far you have compared the Hong Kong protesters with the KKK, I think you called me stupid, it's hard to know for sure with your English, you are denying the tiananmen square massacre happened and now you start to get racist about "whites". I wonder where you'll go next!
Westerners still believe that they are on the side of democracy and freedom. Instead of standing in the US-China trade war and the Sino-US dispute, it stands on the side of the United States. Hong Kong and the NBA are just a continuation of this struggle. You are like a high school student. Disappointed
Is the fact of the statement racial discrimination? very funny. Just like you won't praise me for accepting the Cultural Revolution. Is it freedom of speech? When things are reversed, when a Chinese person in turn accuses the West of being racist, it is brainwashed and persecuted. I am only suspecting the tears of the crocodile. Because Western society is the beneficiary of the collapse of Chinese society.
If I am racist, I will not mention that I love nasa and love Kennedy. As you are ridiculous about my remarks, I also treat your remarks like this.
You call me the AI of high school students. Indeed, because my native language is Chinese, using Google Translate allows me to express a lot of things faster. I at least think that my English is better than your Chinese.
Of course you won't care, but still laugh at my English. Emm, this is what I want to say. Because you are born to think that you are right, think that everyone should speak English and think that you are on the side of justice.
Yes, I said it is a fact, and you should believe in what I believe. It is not difficult to explain why there are always many missionaries in the West, and even in the most glorious time in history, the East did not send a missionary to the West.
No one laughs at your English. In fact the only mention seem to praise you attempts to write English. But why not make things up. After all you already made up that wikipedia debates over Tiananmen Square massacre, which it does not. Disgusting.
I hope you understand that while this is an interesting conversation, your views are inherently skewed by the propaganda you've been fed every day. We know how the Chinese media works (and it's not just China btw. America has much of the same problems, and most of us here do recognise it as such). You have already made made several false statements and made comparisons that does not make sense (Comparing China to England because England has a mock Queen for instance). As such everything you say will be taken with the biggest grain of salt imaginable
I do think it's interesting what the ordinary Chinese thinks, but it truthfully doesn't matter. You don't get to commit human rights violations and consider it ok because "The ordinary Chinese thinks so". Guess who doesn't think it's ok? Hong Kong and its citizens.
Very interesting, wrong comparison I just want to show that some forms of democracy and freedom will change, just as discrimination against blacks is definitely not one of freedom of speech in the United States. Although Martin Luther King was killed. Similarly, China's democracy and freedom are not so much the same as the United States, because the so-called autocracy and dictator seem to be like the Queen of England and the Emperor of Japan.
And when you talk about it, we should think about Hong Kong and its citizens. I am very eager to ask, do you know how many Hong Kong people participated in this Chinese National Day celebration? Including young people, college students, government officials, police, famous stars, and ordinary people. Do you think we should think about Hong Kong people, then do you know how many people in Hong Kong support the police parade? The police in Hong Kong, the government in Hong Kong, Hong Kong, so many condemns the violent protesters, and the ordinary people, shouting at the bbc reporters, this is Hong Kong, China, the taxi driver who supports the law revision, isn't it Hong Kong?
What you see seems to be the collective public opinion of Hong Kong, actually because those people have amplified this reaction through radical methods.
Think about it, if it is really a problem of the society and the Chinese government, the Hong Kong government, the ordinary people of Hong Kong (Is it not ordinary people and the grassroots officials?) Are these attitudes still not showing anything? Think about how good the credibility of the Hong Kong government is, and the same group of people are not trusted now.
The vast majority of protesters on the streets of Hong Kong are college students, young people, and young unemployed people. Is this a normal antibody or a collective carnival of young people, like an American youth who likes to take drugs?
China has experienced two very painful students, and the young people have dominated the political violent protests, almost smashing the entire country. However, these protests did not make more than a billion people ignorant, and the ordinary Chinese who were at a loss knew how to live well.
The Chinese have supported all the legal acts of Hong Kong and have wanted to split China and Hong Kong for many years. There is nothing too fierce.
We support Hong Kong, support democracy, support freedom, and even to some extent, support universal suffrage in Hong Kong.
However, what you have to understand is what is the slogan of Hong Kong's independence and violence? This is what the Hong Kong player and the NBA rocket manager said.
This is also why the Chinese currently call it a terrorist, because terrorists in the Middle East often call themselves freedom fighters.
If Hong Kong, China, is not dominated by the majority of Chinese people and by the majority of Hong Kong people, then who will decide?
Can Texas and California declare independence today and expel all blacks and people from other states？
So，why China give up HK？and Violent protestors demanding the expulsion of mainlanders？
In mainland China, Hong Kong people's bad reputation, sense of geographical superiority and discrimination against mainlanders are the main reasons。
(you can find it in many Hong Kong movies，In mainland China, Hong Kong people's bad reputation, sense of geographical superiority and discrimination against mainlanders are the main reasons (you can find out from many Hong Kong movies, including asking mainlanders if they have seen Apple phones made in China, and mocking the mainland for lack of high-rise power and modern technology, the same thing is still happening to Chinese people in Europe, the United States, etc.)It used to be Korea and Japan.).
You bring up valid points, but what you seem to miss out on is how this all started in the first place. There is currently a Sino-British joint declaration agreement between China and the UK dated back in 1984 and went into effect in 1997 stating that HK will have its own government, is able to pass its own laws, and that their way of life would not change for 50 years. You can read a bit on that agreement here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-British_Joint_Declaration. This means that in this agreement, China agreed that its PRC principles would not be practiced in HK until 2047.
Despite this agreement, in 2014, China proposed a reform to HK's electoral system, a clear infringement of the agreement. Since China agreed that HK could remain autonomous and have authority over their own government, then why is China screening candidates for HK's Chief Executive? This started around 2014 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests), and afterwards the British Foreign Office announced that Chinese officials now treat this declaration as void. You say China support HK's democracy, then why not let the HK'ers elect who they want, instead of screening who they want the HK people to elect? The HK'ers are upset because they were promised 50 years, but China is trying to impose only 22 years into the treaty. Does this mean China's words aren't even worth 50% of what they put on papers?
So flash forward to the current protest, how did it start? Well, China wanted to pass an extradite bill in HK, another infringement of the current agreement. HK'ers did not want this law, which they are within their own rights to deny since China agreed it will not impose, yet China still adamantly demand that this law be passed. If you look over at the 5 demands HK is currently protesting for, they are extremely reasonable given that China started this by breaking their words.
1. Full withdrawal of the extradition bill - Very valid demand, considering China signed an agreement that they will not be imposing their laws in HK until 2047. Last I checked, it's only 2019.
2. Inquiry into police brutality - Also valid, the people would like to investigate police's conduct. The police are meant to protect the people, not beat them up when they are protesting.
3. Retracting the classification of protesters as rioters - This started because China broke its words, so the people were upset and protested. Had China not broke its words, this wouldn't have happened. The people marched because China lied, not because they randomly rioted out of no where. This point can be a case by case basis with some standards since I understand not all protesters are good, some can be destructive, and we should judge them fairly.
4. Amnesty for arrested protesters - Same as point 3.
5. Dual universal suffrage, for both their Legislative and Chief Executive - Again, China signed an agreement that allows the HK'ers to manage their own government. If they are true to their words, let the HK'ers decide how they want their government to be ran.
My main point is that HK originally didn't protest for independence. This was NOT how the protest started. They started because China lied and backed out of their own words only 22 years into a 50 years signed agreement. It is only escalating because instead of admitting they were in the wrong, China cracked down on the HK citizens. HK citizens now are entertaining independence because they realized Mainland China does not keep its word. To use a Starcraft analogy, this is similar to Mengsk, Reynor, and Kerrigan working together, yet Mengsk abandoned Kerrigan on that one planet (forgot the name). When Reynor became rightfully pissed for what Mengsk did and turned on him, Mengsk called Reynor a terrorist. China is pulling a Mengsk right now.
If China is true to its words. Come back in 28 years and let the HK'ers do what they want to do with their government for now.
1. China hopes to sign extradition regulations with Hong Kong (extending criminal offenders because there have been criminals who have committed murder and rape in mainland China and have been cast into Hong Kong. The Chinese government and other countries such as the United States also have extradition regulations, and the Hong Kong government has other regions. The state has extradition regulations). Why is it rejected? This is not because mainland China requires the implementation of laws in Hong Kong, but hopes to sign regulations with Hong Kong. This is actually very strange. It is actually an agreement between a country and a country within a country.
2. I hope that you can read the Sino-British Joint Declaration carefully. He has not given the British any rights after this. You can blame the Chinese government, but because of this, I think other countries are involved. This is still the Beijing government of China and the Hong Kong region. problem.
In addition, the Chinese government's commitment is to keep Hong Kong unchanged for 50 years. I don't know how you understand it. I have two thoughts. One is to continue Hong Kong before the colony in 1997, and the second is to follow the basic law after 1997. Hong Kong. Before 1997, Hong Kong was a colony. Hong Kong people did not even have British nationality. The leaders of Hong Kong were all British whites. They were also British nationals, both the first and the second, including the Hong Kong Constitution, the Sino-British Joint Declaration. During the British colonial period, there was no universal suffrage. I don't know where Hong Kong's universal suffrage comes from. This violates the Constitution of Hong Kong - the Basic Law. In addition, without universal suffrage, it cannot mean that they have no democracy. Hong Kong's politics is closer to the Swiss political system, and each leader does not adopt the Swiss rotation system.
Keeping it for 50 years, isn't it just that there is no universal suffrage? Once the universal suffrage is not a violation of the China Commitment and the Sino-British Joint Declaration, and the Hong Kong Basic Law? Although I think that Hong Kong has been harming itself for 50 years, the development of first-tier cities in China is much better than that of Hong Kong. For me, I have lived in Shanghai for a long time, and Hong Kong is like a rural area. Of course, I am not actually, most of them. This is also true in Europe, and I have a stark contrast to the views of Japanese cities.
3. The Chinese government of Beijing and all Chinese have never opposed liberal democracy and legal protests. However, after the Cultural Revolution, the Chinese were sensitive to the protests because we realized that such collective behavior would often evolve into violence. For example, China’s previous protests, the US bombing of the Yugoslav embassy, and Japan’s activities to commemorate the death of soldiers in World War II. This kind of parade in China has produced extreme violence, as happened in Hong Kong.
If you don't trust the Chinese and don't trust the Chinese government, don't you believe that the Hong Kong government and the Hong Kong police, which have always been highly praised, don't believe it? Don't you believe in Western media? Go look for their evaluation of the Hong Kong police and the Hong Kong government in history.
4. Special criminals are not advisable. Think about the United States, but the country with the highest proportion of prison population. Of course, I don't want China to become the United States.
But think about it. There are many British nationals in the Hong Kong police, white people (maybe I think you still don't believe in the yellow race, but I don't think it is racist). Hong Kong's judicial system, so the judges are British nationality, Australian nationality, 90% of judges are white.
You should trust them, not a group of unemployed people, a group of young people who have taken a poison and drink alcohol and have sex on the roadside (although you call it freedom, but often these are blocked by neutral media).
Opposite to these violent protesters are peaceful protesters who have long since left the protest, and supporters who support the police, support the Hong Kong government, and support the Chinese government.
They are more numerous, but unfortunately they need to work and they do not use violence. So it seems to be weak, and because many of them are older people (you should have heard of Hong Kong's aging), they are not very familiar with the Internet, and the Internet is now a Z-age person (in fact, 1995-2000) Born person).
5. Why did they protest? Quite simply, young people can't find a job without a way out, and they are poor. The long-term segregation policy with mainland China discriminates against mainland Chinese people and believes that they are all poor people, as whites discriminate against black people.
Hong Kong knows that Hong Kong is bought by Li Ka-shing, and that the Chinese government cannot interfere and support socialism. Everyone has food and housing.
Later, the economic decline of Western society, if you are a European, there should be experience, the US economy has recently grown, but it is also uncomfortable. After the 2008 financial turmoil, it has been declining for a long time.
China is getting better and better. When China gets better, when they find that the Chinese who once earned 200 yuan a month have the same income and even more money, they find that they can’t be like the colonial era. Next, when it came to China, it became a millionaire, went to bed with more girls, and bought more luxurious cosmetics.
So I hope to return to the colonial era and pass violence. (Their slogan is what you saw in this Hong Kong player and the NBA), by robbing mobile phone stores, selling them online, by raising the flags of the United States and the United Kingdom.
I saw Swedes, and I think I should understand why, academically, the Sedgmo syndrome.
Perhaps Westerners believe that the colonial era is very glorious.
"don't you believe that the Hong Kong government and the Hong Kong police, which have always been highly praised" "Why did they protest? Quite simply, young people can't find a job without a way out, and they are poor. The long-term segregation policy with mainland China discriminates against mainland Chinese people and believes that they are all poor people, as whites discriminate against black people."
This is trolling for sure... I can hardly find any other explanations.
Oh, poor man. In fact, it is very simple. You only need to use Google to search for the gap between the rich and the poor in Hong Kong.
Have you been to Hong Kong and China? I am very familiar with it.
Yeah yeah I can find Gini index for every country in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality But why do you think that's the reason of the protest? Where did you find that? Who told you that? You are very familiar with it but you don't know the reason?
After removing the tax and welfare transfers, Hong Kong’s Gini index was as high as 0.54. If you have been to Chicago and New York, think about where the tramp is, social security (Hong Kong people want to thank the Hong Kong police for their efforts)
In addition, you should check that the top ten billionaires in Hong Kong account for Hong Kong's GDP (more than 35%). The disparity between the rich and the poor in Hong Kong has been criticized by the United Nations. If you can visit Hong Kong's own website
You will find that Hong Kong officially announced that there are 1.3 million poor people in 7.6 million people in Hong Kong. Perhaps you should use Google to search for the poor in Hong Kong directly, or go to Hong Kong in person. Take a look at the slums in the bustling city. (The slums in mainland China have long since disappeared)
Hong Kong is an area without a universal retirement protection system. It is well developed, but his university enrollment rate is only 20%. This is the famous ten universities in Hong Kong.
Hong Kong is a developed region and an unbalanced region. You should probably look at the encyclopedia about Li Ka-shing and see his property. We call him Lee half HK (Lee half HK)
Chuchuchu's posts are so hard to understand - can see him trying really hard with google translate. One thing is quite clear - the majority HK people definitely do not support the police. The support for the government/leader/police in HK has reached an all time low. And yes it's done by a reputable organisation and has traditionally been neutral in these matters.
A lot of of the so called "police supporters/govenrnment supporters" get paid to go on these demonstrations...
Yes, this is why I said that the Western media is very interesting. Look at this site, of course, although you claim that you are only there, there is no review, but the content of these sites will never appear in front of you. See how many people are paying to tens of thousands of people to participate in such a rally?
And it is clear that the support of the government is a certain age, most people are 30-60 years old. They need work to support themselves, people eat every day, and many of them still support the students who participated in the protest. You can look for photos or evidence at will. You will find that the vast majority of protesters are young people in their 20s. Can't you explain the problem?
These people represent Hong Kong? Unemployed people can also represent Hong Kong?
On October 10 2019 05:33 chuchuchu wrote: Even Wikipedia has debates about whether there is a massacre in Tiananmen (1989).
There are no debates on Wikipedia about whether the massacre happened. People are allowed to debate on the wiki debate page, and on there anyone and whomever can say whatever the heck they please. That never makes it onto the actual article itself, which requires sources for everything you post.
And there are plenty of sources for Tiananmen square. There's fucking photos of it! And they have existed since before Photoshop was a thing.
Are you questioning my ability to use the network?
However, it seems that it is hard to say clearly with Westerners and whites. After all, it is a country that relies on the slave trade and the ethnic groups of Africa and the Americas are extinct.
I would like to know that Americans are afraid when they are lying on the land where Indians and blacks are buried.
So far you have compared the Hong Kong protesters with the KKK, I think you called me stupid, it's hard to know for sure with your English, you are denying the tiananmen square massacre happened and now you start to get racist about "whites". I wonder where you'll go next!
He (or they) are going to present this thread to his boss and call it a day. Job done. Nobody defends any government as irrationally as this (new) user does unless it is his job. Please ignore him, propaganda and derailing opposing threads is his job.
Aww but it's funny :/
I mean I know what you are talking about but how is what this account is spewing in this thread in any way productive for the Chinese government? It is not exactly convincing anyone, for the most part it's just amusing people. Well me at least.
You're right, it is funny. One anonymous user in a small community thread is not going to change the world, specially if it is not a skilled professional, but it is a small push in their direction. If you have a lot of them in a lot of sites, it is not small anymore. Convincing is not the only way for him to win this small battle. Filling the thread with nonsensic discussions may be funny for some users but deviates the thread from its original intention, and therefore discourages participation in the discussion started by the OP.
On October 10 2019 02:46 chuchuchu wrote: [quote] Very interesting, wrong comparison I just want to show that some forms of democracy and freedom will change, just as discrimination against blacks is definitely not one of freedom of speech in the United States. Although Martin Luther King was killed. Similarly, China's democracy and freedom are not so much the same as the United States, because the so-called autocracy and dictator seem to be like the Queen of England and the Emperor of Japan.
And when you talk about it, we should think about Hong Kong and its citizens. I am very eager to ask, do you know how many Hong Kong people participated in this Chinese National Day celebration? Including young people, college students, government officials, police, famous stars, and ordinary people. Do you think we should think about Hong Kong people, then do you know how many people in Hong Kong support the police parade? The police in Hong Kong, the government in Hong Kong, Hong Kong, so many condemns the violent protesters, and the ordinary people, shouting at the bbc reporters, this is Hong Kong, China, the taxi driver who supports the law revision, isn't it Hong Kong?
What you see seems to be the collective public opinion of Hong Kong, actually because those people have amplified this reaction through radical methods.
Think about it, if it is really a problem of the society and the Chinese government, the Hong Kong government, the ordinary people of Hong Kong (Is it not ordinary people and the grassroots officials?) Are these attitudes still not showing anything? Think about how good the credibility of the Hong Kong government is, and the same group of people are not trusted now.
The vast majority of protesters on the streets of Hong Kong are college students, young people, and young unemployed people. Is this a normal antibody or a collective carnival of young people, like an American youth who likes to take drugs?
China has experienced two very painful students, and the young people have dominated the political violent protests, almost smashing the entire country. However, these protests did not make more than a billion people ignorant, and the ordinary Chinese who were at a loss knew how to live well.
The Chinese have supported all the legal acts of Hong Kong and have wanted to split China and Hong Kong for many years. There is nothing too fierce.
We support Hong Kong, support democracy, support freedom, and even to some extent, support universal suffrage in Hong Kong.
However, what you have to understand is what is the slogan of Hong Kong's independence and violence? This is what the Hong Kong player and the NBA rocket manager said.
This is also why the Chinese currently call it a terrorist, because terrorists in the Middle East often call themselves freedom fighters.
If Hong Kong, China, is not dominated by the majority of Chinese people and by the majority of Hong Kong people, then who will decide?
Can Texas and California declare independence today and expel all blacks and people from other states？
So，why China give up HK？and Violent protestors demanding the expulsion of mainlanders？
In mainland China, Hong Kong people's bad reputation, sense of geographical superiority and discrimination against mainlanders are the main reasons。
(you can find it in many Hong Kong movies，In mainland China, Hong Kong people's bad reputation, sense of geographical superiority and discrimination against mainlanders are the main reasons (you can find out from many Hong Kong movies, including asking mainlanders if they have seen Apple phones made in China, and mocking the mainland for lack of high-rise power and modern technology, the same thing is still happening to Chinese people in Europe, the United States, etc.)It used to be Korea and Japan.).
You bring up valid points, but what you seem to miss out on is how this all started in the first place. There is currently a Sino-British joint declaration agreement between China and the UK dated back in 1984 and went into effect in 1997 stating that HK will have its own government, is able to pass its own laws, and that their way of life would not change for 50 years. You can read a bit on that agreement here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-British_Joint_Declaration. This means that in this agreement, China agreed that its PRC principles would not be practiced in HK until 2047.
Despite this agreement, in 2014, China proposed a reform to HK's electoral system, a clear infringement of the agreement. Since China agreed that HK could remain autonomous and have authority over their own government, then why is China screening candidates for HK's Chief Executive? This started around 2014 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests), and afterwards the British Foreign Office announced that Chinese officials now treat this declaration as void. You say China support HK's democracy, then why not let the HK'ers elect who they want, instead of screening who they want the HK people to elect? The HK'ers are upset because they were promised 50 years, but China is trying to impose only 22 years into the treaty. Does this mean China's words aren't even worth 50% of what they put on papers?
So flash forward to the current protest, how did it start? Well, China wanted to pass an extradite bill in HK, another infringement of the current agreement. HK'ers did not want this law, which they are within their own rights to deny since China agreed it will not impose, yet China still adamantly demand that this law be passed. If you look over at the 5 demands HK is currently protesting for, they are extremely reasonable given that China started this by breaking their words.
1. Full withdrawal of the extradition bill - Very valid demand, considering China signed an agreement that they will not be imposing their laws in HK until 2047. Last I checked, it's only 2019.
2. Inquiry into police brutality - Also valid, the people would like to investigate police's conduct. The police are meant to protect the people, not beat them up when they are protesting.
3. Retracting the classification of protesters as rioters - This started because China broke its words, so the people were upset and protested. Had China not broke its words, this wouldn't have happened. The people marched because China lied, not because they randomly rioted out of no where. This point can be a case by case basis with some standards since I understand not all protesters are good, some can be destructive, and we should judge them fairly.
4. Amnesty for arrested protesters - Same as point 3.
5. Dual universal suffrage, for both their Legislative and Chief Executive - Again, China signed an agreement that allows the HK'ers to manage their own government. If they are true to their words, let the HK'ers decide how they want their government to be ran.
My main point is that HK originally didn't protest for independence. This was NOT how the protest started. They started because China lied and backed out of their own words only 22 years into a 50 years signed agreement. It is only escalating because instead of admitting they were in the wrong, China cracked down on the HK citizens. HK citizens now are entertaining independence because they realized Mainland China does not keep its word. To use a Starcraft analogy, this is similar to Mengsk, Reynor, and Kerrigan working together, yet Mengsk abandoned Kerrigan on that one planet (forgot the name). When Reynor became rightfully pissed for what Mengsk did and turned on him, Mengsk called Reynor a terrorist. China is pulling a Mengsk right now.
If China is true to its words. Come back in 28 years and let the HK'ers do what they want to do with their government for now.
1. China hopes to sign extradition regulations with Hong Kong (extending criminal offenders because there have been criminals who have committed murder and rape in mainland China and have been cast into Hong Kong. The Chinese government and other countries such as the United States also have extradition regulations, and the Hong Kong government has other regions. The state has extradition regulations). Why is it rejected? This is not because mainland China requires the implementation of laws in Hong Kong, but hopes to sign regulations with Hong Kong. This is actually very strange. It is actually an agreement between a country and a country within a country.
2. I hope that you can read the Sino-British Joint Declaration carefully. He has not given the British any rights after this. You can blame the Chinese government, but because of this, I think other countries are involved. This is still the Beijing government of China and the Hong Kong region. problem.
In addition, the Chinese government's commitment is to keep Hong Kong unchanged for 50 years. I don't know how you understand it. I have two thoughts. One is to continue Hong Kong before the colony in 1997, and the second is to follow the basic law after 1997. Hong Kong. Before 1997, Hong Kong was a colony. Hong Kong people did not even have British nationality. The leaders of Hong Kong were all British whites. They were also British nationals, both the first and the second, including the Hong Kong Constitution, the Sino-British Joint Declaration. During the British colonial period, there was no universal suffrage. I don't know where Hong Kong's universal suffrage comes from. This violates the Constitution of Hong Kong - the Basic Law. In addition, without universal suffrage, it cannot mean that they have no democracy. Hong Kong's politics is closer to the Swiss political system, and each leader does not adopt the Swiss rotation system.
Keeping it for 50 years, isn't it just that there is no universal suffrage? Once the universal suffrage is not a violation of the China Commitment and the Sino-British Joint Declaration, and the Hong Kong Basic Law? Although I think that Hong Kong has been harming itself for 50 years, the development of first-tier cities in China is much better than that of Hong Kong. For me, I have lived in Shanghai for a long time, and Hong Kong is like a rural area. Of course, I am not actually, most of them. This is also true in Europe, and I have a stark contrast to the views of Japanese cities.
3. The Chinese government of Beijing and all Chinese have never opposed liberal democracy and legal protests. However, after the Cultural Revolution, the Chinese were sensitive to the protests because we realized that such collective behavior would often evolve into violence. For example, China’s previous protests, the US bombing of the Yugoslav embassy, and Japan’s activities to commemorate the death of soldiers in World War II. This kind of parade in China has produced extreme violence, as happened in Hong Kong.
If you don't trust the Chinese and don't trust the Chinese government, don't you believe that the Hong Kong government and the Hong Kong police, which have always been highly praised, don't believe it? Don't you believe in Western media? Go look for their evaluation of the Hong Kong police and the Hong Kong government in history.
4. Special criminals are not advisable. Think about the United States, but the country with the highest proportion of prison population. Of course, I don't want China to become the United States.
But think about it. There are many British nationals in the Hong Kong police, white people (maybe I think you still don't believe in the yellow race, but I don't think it is racist). Hong Kong's judicial system, so the judges are British nationality, Australian nationality, 90% of judges are white.
You should trust them, not a group of unemployed people, a group of young people who have taken a poison and drink alcohol and have sex on the roadside (although you call it freedom, but often these are blocked by neutral media).
Opposite to these violent protesters are peaceful protesters who have long since left the protest, and supporters who support the police, support the Hong Kong government, and support the Chinese government.
They are more numerous, but unfortunately they need to work and they do not use violence. So it seems to be weak, and because many of them are older people (you should have heard of Hong Kong's aging), they are not very familiar with the Internet, and the Internet is now a Z-age person (in fact, 1995-2000) Born person).
5. Why did they protest? Quite simply, young people can't find a job without a way out, and they are poor. The long-term segregation policy with mainland China discriminates against mainland Chinese people and believes that they are all poor people, as whites discriminate against black people.
Hong Kong knows that Hong Kong is bought by Li Ka-shing, and that the Chinese government cannot interfere and support socialism. Everyone has food and housing.
Later, the economic decline of Western society, if you are a European, there should be experience, the US economy has recently grown, but it is also uncomfortable. After the 2008 financial turmoil, it has been declining for a long time.
China is getting better and better. When China gets better, when they find that the Chinese who once earned 200 yuan a month have the same income and even more money, they find that they can’t be like the colonial era. Next, when it came to China, it became a millionaire, went to bed with more girls, and bought more luxurious cosmetics.
So I hope to return to the colonial era and pass violence. (Their slogan is what you saw in this Hong Kong player and the NBA), by robbing mobile phone stores, selling them online, by raising the flags of the United States and the United Kingdom.
I saw Swedes, and I think I should understand why, academically, the Sedgmo syndrome.
Perhaps Westerners believe that the colonial era is very glorious.
"don't you believe that the Hong Kong government and the Hong Kong police, which have always been highly praised" "Why did they protest? Quite simply, young people can't find a job without a way out, and they are poor. The long-term segregation policy with mainland China discriminates against mainland Chinese people and believes that they are all poor people, as whites discriminate against black people."
This is trolling for sure... I can hardly find any other explanations.
Oh, poor man. In fact, it is very simple. You only need to use Google to search for the gap between the rich and the poor in Hong Kong.
Have you been to Hong Kong and China? I am very familiar with it.
Yeah yeah I can find Gini index for every country in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality But why do you think that's the reason of the protest? Where did you find that? Who told you that? You are very familiar with it but you don't know the reason?
After removing the tax and welfare transfers, Hong Kong’s Gini index was as high as 0.54. If you have been to Chicago and New York, think about where the tramp is, social security (Hong Kong people want to thank the Hong Kong police for their efforts)
In addition, you should check that the top ten billionaires in Hong Kong account for Hong Kong's GDP (more than 35%). The disparity between the rich and the poor in Hong Kong has been criticized by the United Nations. If you can visit Hong Kong's own website
You will find that Hong Kong officially announced that there are 1.3 million poor people in 7.6 million people in Hong Kong. Perhaps you should use Google to search for the poor in Hong Kong directly, or go to Hong Kong in person. Take a look at the slums in the bustling city. (The slums in mainland China have long since disappeared)
Hong Kong is an area without a universal retirement protection system. It is well developed, but his university enrollment rate is only 20%. This is the famous ten universities in Hong Kong.
Hong Kong is a developed region and an unbalanced region. You should probably look at the encyclopedia about Li Ka-shing and see his property. We call him Lee half HK (Lee half HK)
Chuchuchu's posts are so hard to understand - can see him trying really hard with google translate. One thing is quite clear - the majority HK people definitely do not support the police. The support for the government/leader/police in HK has reached an all time low. And yes it's done by a reputable organisation and has traditionally been neutral in these matters.
A lot of of the so called "police supporters/govenrnment supporters" get paid to go on these demonstrations...
Yes, this is why I said that the Western media is very interesting. Look at this site, of course, although you claim that you are only there, there is no review, but the content of these sites will never appear in front of you. See how many people are paying to tens of thousands of people to participate in such a rally?
And it is clear that the support of the government is a certain age, most people are 30-60 years old. They need work to support themselves, people eat every day, and many of them still support the students who participated in the protest. You can look for photos or evidence at will. You will find that the vast majority of protesters are young people in their 20s. Can't you explain the problem?
These people represent Hong Kong? Unemployed people can also represent Hong Kong?
What? Does it really matter "what they protest for"? I thought the point is they have the right to protest and speak it, without being beaten up? One group of 2million people can protest, of course another 160k people can also protest. "Who's the majority?" that's what "one man, one vote" can decide, which is what they want, so if you are wondering why don't you just give them a chance and find the answer?
I dont normally get political with world news as we have enough to deal with in australia, our protests are pretty peaceful but theyre much smaller in comparison. But when you have the size of 2 million (idk the actual number so im quoting you), it seems especially volatile to violence or unruly behaviour. The police are always going to be present (at least they are here) as regardless of how good your intentions are theres always an individual whos causing trouble now it may be like 1 in like 200 or even some drunk dude, the police have to step in for small situations like that. At 2 million people its just amplified you have police reacting to some nonviolent but possible questionable acts and then it snowballs out of control.
Example: You have police arresting one protestor who is taking it too far, police step in but everything fine. The protestor is sat down to cool off the police protect him and others around him and he might get slap with a mild fine or something but nothing more comes of it. Thats the ideal response right? Repeat that situation a thousand times, and ur getting someone who fucks up the protestor is smashing a window or the police are being too violent to bring him down, at the start this will be a rare occurance but both sides wont see it like that any action against whoevers side will be seen as a generalisation and the whole thing spirals out of control. Im not supporting the police or anything like that, im just saying with so many people everything can snowball
On October 10 2019 01:21 Wombat_NI wrote: [quote] They’re not a political platform, but they do have a clear political position here which is tow whatever line the Chinese authorities want them to tow.
Seems to me it was a pretty good platform for the guy to use really, although the attention it gained was more from Blizzard’s reaction than his actions specifically. Gained a fuckload of traction even US Senators are wading in, doubt he’d have been able to elicit such a response with a tweet.
China and especially the Gulf States use sport as an extension of their soft power, they’ve made it political already, likewise the Cold War saw sporting events like the Olympics as an ideological battleground.
if it is not an political extension of soft power,why some officials of the organization are talking about politics？if not,STOP talking.As an official, you can't blatantly confront the Chinese public opinion while thinking that discrimination against Chinese people, Chinese culture and support separatism and violence.
Why not?
National self-determination is a key principle of geopolitics in the modern era.
Considering a bomb blew in the windows of my house when I was but a babe, I’m quite happy that the United States interceded and helped facilitate a peace here that respected both of the national identities in our wee country.
I would personally like to see more of China and its culture emerge onto the world stage, an old and venerable culture indeed, whose people have accomplished remarkable things in the last few decades especially.
If it’s by trampling on everyone and expecting Westerners to bend to their whims and where criticism is construed as a grievous insult then, no thanks.
When you think so, have you ever asked about the thoughts of ordinary Chinese? It's like I'm here to express the thoughts of an ordinary Chinese. Indeed, I feel sad that I didn't learn English well, because what I lost is not a good paper, but an opportunity to communicate with others.
Not only Americans can define the world. The pioneers of socialism and communism are Germans and French. Formerly President Roosevelt of the United States was also criticized for socialism or communism. But think about Chinese history, the current development of China, and the past workers of Britain.
Some ideological conflicts are unavoidable, especially under the propaganda of some western media, they usually distort the report in order to satisfy their own interests.
China does not do very well in many places, but it does not want to do so. No Chinese wants his country to be like India with the same population. (I do not mean to discriminate. Most Chinese want to live a good life first and guarantee everyone the same rights, wealth, rights and status.)
In China, it is still possible to elect people who have been upgraded from the grassroots level through examinations and votes, while officials at the grassroots level are also elected.
In China, former leaders were even born to poor peasants rather than a billion-dollar owner or equally wealthy political family. Both father and son are presidents.
Western media believe that China is undemocratic and not free, and the Chinese believe that they are free and democratic. This seems to be a disgusting tactic.
I was disappointed with many of the statements, especially those of the distorted Sixth Fourth Movement (my father was one of the participants, but later they built China into the second largest country in the world), and those who believed that the Hong Kong police should not react to any of the protestors'actions.
When commenting, consider that China has 1.4 billion people. This country can not change because of the ideas of more than a dozen people, thousands of people and tens of thousands of people.
The most important thing is to ensure that more than a billion people, like other Westerners, can live with wealth and dignity on this planet.
I wonder what this guy thinks about the hundreds of students that were murdered at Tienanmen Square in 1989.
And I wonder what you think about the Trail of Tears?
The Trail of Tears is universally taught as an abhorrent action by the United States government here in the US. It is not celebrated. Its brutal events are condemned by the people and by society. So now tell us what you think about Tienanmen Square in 1989.
The Chinese often regard 1989 as the same event as the Cultural Revolution. If you preach him, for the Chinese, as if to promote k.k.k, my father used to be one of them, but he told me a lot. The reason why the Chinese do not want to talk about the 1989 and the Cultural Revolution, because this is a disaster and an unspeakable thing. More importantly, they are related to political struggles. It’s as if Americans don’t talk about Lincoln actually not liberating all black slaves. The African Americans actually struggled for human rights until the 1960s-1970s, but today it is no longer a simple assassination of Martin Luther King.
In fact, you can see when I see you talking to you here. China is not what you think. I will still talk to you about this, because Blizzard is often more tolerant, just like StarCraft, or World of Warcraft shows. I will not be arrested.
Similarly, if I know you in reality, maybe I will pretend not to know and be surprised as you mentioned above. In fact, I started to understand 1989, or from China's website (dark network, the Chinese network is very complicated, in fact, you can find what you want, including everything that violates all human laws)
Because we don't want to talk about it, this is not a simple thing. Just like we don't talk about conspiracy theories on the moon or aliens in the 51st district. We talked about Kennedy flying more to the moon and today's nasa, not to him and Marilyn Monroe, as well as Cuba, and the conspiracy theories he was killed. (Actually, these conspiracy theories in the United States were very popular in China. People refused to believe that landing on the moon was true. People also believed that Kennedy died of Marilyn Monroe and family curses, and there were really aliens in District 51.)
People in the US talk about our historical figures' short-comings all the time. They are taught in schools. They are not something we have to go seek out on our own on a website. My US History teacher brought up the hypocrisy of Thomas Jefferson writing "The right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" while still owning slaves many times. We were taught about Lincoln's actual beliefs and how what he did did not truly liberate everyone and bring us on an even playing field. The struggles of the Civil Rights movement are talked about in-depth in schools. The atrocities of our government are openly taught and condemned.
You just grouped Tienanmen Square in with conspiracy theories and that's all that I think really needs to be said on that, but I will say more. Your own government murdered its own people. It drove students over with tanks without issue. Students that were peacefully protesting. Your government murdered people. It happened. It is not a conspiracy and it does not deserve to be treated like some outlandish concept. The fact you are so afraid to talk about awful things your government has done speaks volumes.
Even Wikipedia has debates about whether there is a massacre in Tiananmen (1989).
On October 10 2019 05:33 chuchuchu wrote: Even Wikipedia has debates about whether there is a massacre in Tiananmen (1989).
There are no debates on Wikipedia about whether the massacre happened. People are allowed to debate on the wiki debate page, and on there anyone and whomever can say whatever the heck they please. That never makes it onto the actual article itself, which requires sources for everything you post.
And there are plenty of sources for Tiananmen square. There's fucking photos of it! And they have existed since before Photoshop was a thing.
Are you questioning my ability to use the network?
However, it seems that it is hard to say clearly with Westerners and whites. After all, it is a country that relies on the slave trade and the ethnic groups of Africa and the Americas are extinct.
I would like to know that Americans are afraid when they are lying on the land where Indians and blacks are buried.
So far you have compared the Hong Kong protesters with the KKK, I think you called me stupid, it's hard to know for sure with your English, you are denying the tiananmen square massacre happened and now you start to get racist about "whites". I wonder where you'll go next!
He (or they) are going to present this thread to his boss and call it a day. Job done. Nobody defends any government as irrationally as this (new) user does unless it is his job. Please ignore him, propaganda and derailing opposing threads is his job.
Aww but it's funny :/
I mean I know what you are talking about but how is what this account is spewing in this thread in any way productive for the Chinese government? It is not exactly convincing anyone, for the most part it's just amusing people. Well me at least.
You're right, it is funny. One anonymous user in a small community thread is not going to change the world, specially if it is not a skilled professional, but it is a small push in their direction. If you have a lot of them in a lot of sites, it is not small anymore. Convincing is not the only way for him to win this small battle. Filling the thread with nonsensic discussions may be funny for some users but deviates the thread from its original intention, and therefore discourages participation in the discussion started by the OP.
You're right of course it's a poster that is best ignored even if it isn't what we're talking about. Like I posted before this shouldn't be a discussion about China but about Blizzard and its disgusting greed over morals decision.
On October 10 2019 07:11 Shock710 wrote: Example: You have police arresting one protestor who is taking it too far, police step in but everything fine. The protestor is sat down to cool off the police protect him and others around him and he might get slap with a mild fine or something but nothing more comes of it. Thats the ideal response right? Repeat that situation a thousand times, and ur getting someone who fucks up the protestor is smashing a window or the police are being too violent to bring him down, at the start this will be a rare occurance but both sides wont see it like that any action against whoevers side will be seen as a generalisation and the whole thing spirals out of control. Im not supporting the police or anything like that, im just saying with so many people everything can snowball
Unfortunately, I fear that's the problem with whats happening in HK. As the protests get out of control, it's harder to defend the actions of the protesters even if you agree with their general goal. I was eating with a mate who (after we start talking about the police having shot someone) shows a full video of the incident essentially showing 10+ guys with batons jumping a policeman and then another policeman comes around a corner and shorts one in the leg. As you reflect on thee things and you think to yourself "what would I do if I was the policeman" and sorry but no shit I would shoot him too.
Having said that, the point isn't about whether anyone here agrees with the protesters in blizzard or not, it's about whether blizzard should be expected to allow people to use their platform to debate these kinds of issues.
I feel they were a bit heavy handed but no idea what happened in the background either.
Popular Hearthstone professional, streamer, and tournament caster Brian Kibler today issued a statement that he “will have no involvement in Grandmasters,” unless “something changes” following Blizzard’s decision to ban Hearthstone player Chung “blitzchung” Ng Wai from the tournament circuit.
Kibler, a regular presence on the Hearthstone competitive commentariat posted a blog today, expressing concern at the “incredibly harsh” punishment meted out by Blizzard to Chung. Earlier this week, the company banned Chung for a year, and confiscated his Asia-Pacific Grandmasters earnings after he shouted “liberate Hong Kong, revolution of our time,” a slogan associated with the current pro-democracy protests.
Blizzard’s actions, which are closely tied to the company’s commercial ambitions in China, have been met with outrage. Some have called for a boycott on the company’s products. Protests have followed from Blizzard employees and Hearthstone competitors.
Kibler’s blog acknowledged that Chung had broken tournament rules, but said that the context of the political situation in Hong Kong, and Activision Blizzard’s Asian ambitions, could not be ignored.
“I won’t pretend to understand either the intricacies of the geopolitical situation in China and Hong Kong or the full extent of Blizzard’s business interests there,” he wrote. “But to me this penalty feels like it is deeply rooted in both. The heavy-handedness of it feels like someone insisted that Blizzard make an example of Blitzchung, not only to discourage others from similar acts in the future but also to appease those upset by the outburst itself.”
Kibler, 39, has been professional card game player for more than two decades, with multiple Hearthstone and Magic: The Gathering tournament trophies. He’s also a regular caster and commentator.
“That kind of appeasement is simply not something I can in good conscience be associated with,” he added in his blog. “When I learned about the ruling, I reached out to Blizzard and informed them that I no longer feel comfortable casting the Grandmasters finals at BlizzCon. I will not be a smiling face on camera that tacitly endorses this decision. Unless something changes, I will have no involvement in Grandmasters moving forward.”
Oh, a man with principles, that's cool. I hope more will follow.
Fingers crossed. I got a nice refund on my Warcraft Reforged purchase which funded my drinking tonight, got to go adhere to Irish stereotypes after all!
On October 10 2019 07:40 Big-t wrote: So you guys think Blizz will react to the community response in any way?
Probably not, maybe they are gonna anounce some donation to humanitory/civil right protection organisation at Blizzcon if the pressure stay on, but I don't expect more. I think the Internet make the protest bigger than it really is, most people playing Blizz games don't check sub-reddit or Twitter. If it get all the way to the US/European political dirsouse, then I imagine were gonna see a reaction
On October 10 2019 06:10 Komodo wrote: Have someone stated that the same happened with the NBA? The coach of the Rockets made almost the same comment but the NBA stated that they supported the coach free of speach. China canceled the games that where going to be held in its country.
Of course this has an impact in future NBA endevours in China but remains a reliable company for its workers.
#1. Morey is a Prez of B-Ball Ops not a coach.
#2. He immediately deleted his tweet and said he didn't mean to offend any one and that he is just 1 guy with 1 opnion and imperfect information living the USA who has not experienced what its like to live in China.
#3. You're painting of over simplified picture of what the NBA did. There is way more to it than "they supported the coach free of speach" whatever that is.
Check out James Harden's profuse apology and his proclamation that he loves everything about China.
Klay Thompson has a big deal with a Chinese company. I don't think you're going to hear him engaging in symbolic gestures supporting the Hong Kong protesters.
The NBA is struggling with this issue just like Blizzard is.
What corporate cowardice! From an organization that claims to have values in the social space.
Is TeamLiquid issuing a statement? They run teams in how many Blizzard sports? Teoita & Waxangel are in this thread. Does TeamLiquid as an organization stand with Blizzard in condemning violations of its EULA?
From a cynical point of view, Blizzard could have been much more gentle and made their point without this terrible optics. As an idealist however, Blizzard can kiss my money behind, this is the nail in the coffin.
Blizzard said they'd defend the pride and dignity of China at all costs while China is murdering protesters who don't want to live in an authoritarian state. And they have the temerity to claim that it's because they want to keep politics out of their game whilst making a deeply political statement that very obviously sides with moral failure.
I was going to be getting Overwatch on Switch but that's a nope from me now.
On October 10 2019 08:59 RealityTheGreat wrote: Blizzard doesn't like to mix up politic and games. For example, no Blizzard Game bases on real world politic background.
They did have other options: -Ignore the incident, privately warning the player this could not be repeated. -An obvilously mild punishment, trying to appear neutral. -A justified punishment, in line with what they have done in similar cases.
This reaction was political in itself, and they should be very aware it would cause outrage in the western world.
Is the Chinese market really so important they are willing to take the risk of losing everything else?
On October 10 2019 08:59 RealityTheGreat wrote: Blizzard doesn't like to mix up politic and games. For example, no Blizzard Game bases on real world politic background.
Games and politics are always going to be related: They are quite happy to get into politics when they make Tracer a woman who likes woman.
Nice to see Kibler doing the right thing, also nice to see people in the Magic community also speak up, including some long time big names.
And this:
On October 10 2019 03:57 phodacbiet wrote: To use a Starcraft analogy, this is similar to Mengsk, Reynor, and Kerrigan working together, yet Mengsk abandoned Kerrigan on that one planet (forgot the name). When Reynor became rightfully pissed for what Mengsk did and turned on him, Mengsk called Reynor a terrorist. China is pulling a Mengsk right now.
This is just awesome. So many games, movies, TV shows, books are about the kinds of things happening in Hong Kong because it matters, because it's important, because it resonates (or at least it's supposed to). And it makes so much more painful when it's a company that used to make those kinds of games and stand and speak up for oppressed people that does something as astonishingly immoral as this.
Even though it feels like none of us here have any power to right any wrongs in the world, it makes me happy seeing people get upset, be disgusted, and get mad about a few things going on right now. That's the right response.
I wish I had more to say, but, a lot of good stuff has already been said. Hopefully all the bullshit happening all over the world starts to change for the better, and very, very soon.
On October 10 2019 08:59 RealityTheGreat wrote: Blizzard doesn't like to mix up politic and games. For example, no Blizzard Game bases on real world politic background.
Games and politics are always going to be related: They are quite happy to get into politics when they make Tracer a woman who likes woman.
i'm pretty sure Blizzard only "celebrates" gay pride in certain countries it is not a global initiative.
On October 10 2019 08:59 RealityTheGreat wrote: Blizzard doesn't like to mix up politic and games. For example, no Blizzard Game bases on real world politic background.
Games and politics are always going to be related: They are quite happy to get into politics when they make Tracer a woman who likes woman.
On October 10 2019 06:10 Komodo wrote: Have someone stated that the same happened with the NBA? The coach of the Rockets made almost the same comment but the NBA stated that they supported the coach free of speach. China canceled the games that where going to be held in its country.
Of course this has an impact in future NBA endevours in China but remains a reliable company for its workers.
#1. Morey is a Prez of B-Ball Ops not a coach.
#2. He immediately deleted his tweet and said he didn't mean to offend any one and that he is just 1 guy with 1 opnion and imperfect information living the USA who has not experienced what its like to live in China.
#3. You're painting of over simplified picture of what the NBA did. There is way more to it than "they supported the coach free of speach" whatever that is.
Check out James Harden's profuse apology and his proclamation that he loves everything about China.
Klay Thompson has a big deal with a Chinese company. I don't think you're going to hear him engaging in symbolic gestures supporting the Hong Kong protesters.
The NBA is struggling with this issue just like Blizzard is.
It's funny to see Trump attacking the NBA on this matter and for once, Trump has the moral high ground. Never thought I would see the day.
imo, nobody here has the slightest clue as to how politics work.... my guess is anyone angry at this has issue themselves and just using this to justify their anger
On October 10 2019 09:42 TaylorG wrote: imo, nobody here has the slightest clue as to how politics work.... my guess is anyone angry at this has issue themselves and just using this to justify their anger
On October 10 2019 09:42 TaylorG wrote: imo, nobody here has the slightest clue as to how politics work.... my guess is anyone angry at this has issue themselves and just using this to justify their anger
The "Nothing is wrong, people are just angry and using this as an excuse" take is always such a terrible one. There are unjust things happening all over the place that are constantly making people upset for good reason, this one in particular has to do with the owners of the games this community is built around doing something obviously greedy and absurd. Or, obvious to most people, apparently not all.
My guess is people coming in to say something as trite as your comment are so miserable and careless that the only thing they can imagine is to put down the people who care speaking up about serious issues in order to pretend that their own miserableness is normal and acceptable behavior.
My other guess is that this has nothing to do with people understanding or not understanding politics but rather that people fundamentally disagree with the fact that a US company is silencing opposition to oppressive foreign entities grotesquely spitting in the face of basic human rights for shallow, selfish reasons. But what do I know.
On October 10 2019 09:42 TaylorG wrote: imo, nobody here has the slightest clue as to how politics work.... my guess is anyone angry at this has issue themselves and just using this to justify their anger
The "Nothing is wrong, people are just angry and using this as an excuse" take is always such a terrible one. There are unjust things happening all over the place that are constantly making people upset for good reason, this one in particular has to do with the owners of the games this community is built around doing something obviously greedy and absurd. Or, obvious to most people, apparently not all.
My guess is people coming in to say something as trite as your comment are so miserable and careless that the only thing they can imagine is to put down the people who care speaking up about serious issues in order to pretend that their own miserableness is normal and acceptable behavior.
My other guess is that this has nothing to do with people understanding or not understanding politics but rather that people fundamentally disagree with the fact that a US company is silencing opposition to oppressive foreign entities grotesquely spitting in the face of basic human rights for shallow, selfish reasons. But what do I know.
I think a large part of why a lot of people care about this specific case is that companies have made strong pushes to get you to identify with them. Blizzard seems to have succeed on this in the past. Then they suddenly decide to break one of the core identity tenets they have been pushing. Thus breaking people's identification with them.
Most people (outside China) have been of the same opinion since the beginning and Blizzard toeing the opposite line is of course not making them a lot of fans.
On October 09 2019 15:19 abuse wrote: You say mixing up sports and politics is frowned upon, yet, Blizzard is allowed to be as political as they want. Do you know that in the Overwatch league the Taiwanese team isn't called Taiwan but "Chinese Taipei" and the players are not allowed to even use their own country's flag because Blizzard doesn't want to kiss up to China to enter their market, and China thinks Taiwan is still their territory.
And south tirolean athletes are forced to compete under the italian flag, and there's the organizer's egalitarian ads in soccer matches and so on. Of course, sports are used for political agitation, but that doesn't make adding to it less bad.
First off, South Tyrol isn't a country(not recognized at least). Taiwan is. Second, you're just proving my point here. Organizations can do whatever the fuck they want, both in my case and .
First, Taiwan is not a country. United Nation does not recognize it. United States does not recognize it. Russia does not recognize it. United Kingdom, France, and all European Union countries do not recognize it. Most countries in the world do not recognize it. Even Taiwan's own "constitution", claim itself as part of China, under the name of "Republic of China". Technically, the mainland and the government in the island are still at full war state, and there is not even a cease fire. Second, Blizzard has its rules and will follow it. Anyone who compete an official competition also must accept it. If someone break the rules, whatever it is cheating or insulting other people, Blizzard has and will use its power. Not only Blizzard, most major sports organizations all have such rules. One example is FIFA, which bans all politics in any soccer event. 3. The riots and terrorists in Hong Kong do not seek freedom of speech. They seek freedom of making crimes and separation by force. They burn subway and banks, loot shops, block airport, and attack police, tourists and random people on street. If anyone want to support such actions, I assume that they are no difference with 9/11 attackers.
good for you! I can not believe these people go this far! No discussion about politic view is right or wrong,the rules are just no politics in game, isn't it clear enough? or the HK guy just said something you guys like to hear, rules are gone? so how abOut plAyers say Hk/TW belOngs to ChIna instead of glhf in game? I guess it's not OK because you guys are soso double standard
On October 09 2019 15:19 abuse wrote: You say mixing up sports and politics is frowned upon, yet, Blizzard is allowed to be as political as they want. Do you know that in the Overwatch league the Taiwanese team isn't called Taiwan but "Chinese Taipei" and the players are not allowed to even use their own country's flag because Blizzard doesn't want to kiss up to China to enter their market, and China thinks Taiwan is still their territory.
And south tirolean athletes are forced to compete under the italian flag, and there's the organizer's egalitarian ads in soccer matches and so on. Of course, sports are used for political agitation, but that doesn't make adding to it less bad.
First off, South Tyrol isn't a country(not recognized at least). Taiwan is. Second, you're just proving my point here. Organizations can do whatever the fuck they want, both in my case and .
First, Taiwan is not a country. United Nation does not recognize it. United States does not recognize it. Russia does not recognize it. United Kingdom, France, and all European Union countries do not recognize it. Most countries in the world do not recognize it. Even Taiwan's own "constitution", claim itself as part of China, under the name of "Republic of China". Technically, the mainland and the government in the island are still at full war state, and there is not even a cease fire. Second, Blizzard has its rules and will follow it. Anyone who compete an official competition also must accept it. If someone break the rules, whatever it is cheating or insulting other people, Blizzard has and will use its power. Not only Blizzard, most major sports organizations all have such rules. One example is FIFA, which bans all politics in any soccer event. 3. The riots and terrorists in Hong Kong do not seek freedom of speech. They seek freedom of making crimes and separation by force. They burn subway and banks, loot shops, block airport, and attack police, tourists and random people on street. If anyone want to support such actions, I assume that they are no difference with 9/11 attackers.
good for you! I can not believe these people go this far! No discussion about politic view is right or wrong,the rules are just no politics in game, isn't it clear enough? or the HK guy just said something you guys like to hear, rules are gone? so how abOut plAyers say Hk/TW belOngs to ChIna instead of glhf in game? I guess it's not OK because you guys are soso double standard
It was not said in the game. It was said outside the game in the extra content section that I hardly ever watch in e-sports or normal sports. Secondly, the punishment is not proportional with the action. If the action was a warning (perhaps a minor fine) with the VOD up with a disclaimer added there would be no thread here. Third, if somebody is of that opinion and made it in the extra section that is there to tell you more about the players to personalize them I wouldn't think it is wrong. I would not agree with their opinion and likely lose respect for them as a person but would not request them to remove the VOD.
It is not hate speech in either case. Somebody going out and saying kill all the police or kill all the Islamic people in China in a serious way would deserve a similar response as what this got. Especially if they pushed people to join them in the actions. Stating support with a moment that is mostly positive or pointing out current political problems doesn't really match that.
Blizzard was completely within its rights regarding the actions it took, and it did nothing wrong.
It is trying to maintain access to its 2nd/3rd biggest market, and likely its most rapidly growing market.
freedom of speech =/= saying whatever you want, whenever you want, without consequences.
The HS player hijacked Blizzard's platform, broke the ELUA, and jeopardized the ability of Blizzard to do business in one of its major markets.
Blizzard choosing to stay apolitical =/= complicity with China.
If the people who are outraged over this want to be consistent and non hypocritical, they should show this outrage to companies such as Apple, Nike, Ford, GM, Costco, Walmart, etc as well.
If you really want to go down the rabbit hole, the U.S. and its NATO cronies have engaged in practices that violate human rights as well. Might as well speak out against NATO countries and companies associated with them as well.
On October 09 2019 16:11 pzlama333 wrote: If anyone want to support such actions, I assume that they are no difference with 9/11 attackers.
Are you Americans all like that? No, it's not even REMOTELY comperable to 9/11. I do not question the rights of the chinese gouverment to the Hong Kong, but compering a rioters with clear political statement to a terrorists who did mass murder with primary intention to kill as many people they can just to send a message they want war is geting too far.
the rioters declared that they will attack offwork police officers and THIER FAMILY. Infact they already did.is it kind of terrorism?
As a ardent communist, I absolutely do not support the protesters in Hong Kong. I would classify the majority of them as misguided and the minority of them as driven by hatred of mainland Chinese people. At the same time I condemn any capitalist enterprise that tries to engage in politics, whether it is through censorship or lobbying. I think people in this thread are naive to expect corporation to act "morally" or support anything resembling democracy. A capitalist enterprise is by definition a dictatorship and incompatible with democracy. The most effective course of actions for all democracy loving people is to encourage employees of Blizzard and other corporations to take over ownership and operate the business according to the principle of one employee one vote. We don't tolerate dictatorship in the politics, why do we continue to allow dictatorships in the workplace. Remember that we are spending 8 hours a day from age 20 to 60 at work. Further more I would expect that if Blizzard were run by the employees who love their work and games, we would see Blizzard making many more decisions that us fans can support.
Also I will take this opportunity to shill for worker cooperatives. I encourage everyone on TL to learn about more democratic ways to organize businesses. Richard Wolff is an economist who supports coops, his organization Democracy at Work is a good source of information (democracyatwork.info). Also, the Mondragon Cooperative Corporation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation) in Spain is the worlds largest worker owned enterprise, highly competitive, and an example we should all learn about as well.
On October 10 2019 09:42 TaylorG wrote: imo, nobody here has the slightest clue as to how politics work.... my guess is anyone angry at this has issue themselves and just using this to justify their anger
On October 10 2019 08:59 RealityTheGreat wrote: Blizzard doesn't like to mix up politic and games. For example, no Blizzard Game bases on real world politic background.
Games and politics are always going to be related: They are quite happy to get into politics when they make Tracer a woman who likes woman.
i'm pretty sure Blizzard only "celebrates" gay pride in certain countries it is not a global initiative.
On October 10 2019 08:59 RealityTheGreat wrote: Blizzard doesn't like to mix up politic and games. For example, no Blizzard Game bases on real world politic background.
Games and politics are always going to be related: They are quite happy to get into politics when they make Tracer a woman who likes woman.
Also, she isn't in China
MY POINT MY DUDES.
Blizzard gets into politics when its expedient. Slapping on rainbow paint to characters a little after release in markets where players are broadly queer friendly (and remember there were still people who didn't like Tracer as a WLW,)
Companies love to court a bit of controversy, when its fiscally expedient and maybe even tacitly supporting the right of an area to self govern might not be the right thing to do money wise, but it is still the right thing to do.
Further, we can be all solemn and say "Blitzchung he broke the rules, Blizz enforce rules end of", but that is to ignore that the rules are arbitrary: it is at blizzards sole discretion when to enforce them, so it is entirely right to question when Blizz decides to enforce the rules or not.
And right now, Blizzard if it means to or not, is siding with an authoritarian regime after coming down very heavy handed on everyone involved.
On October 10 2019 10:50 BerserkSword wrote: Blizzard was completely within its rights regarding the actions it took, and it did nothing wrong.
It is trying to maintain access to its 2nd/3rd biggest market, and likely its most rapidly growing market.
freedom of speech =/= saying whatever you want, whenever you want, without consequences.
The HS player hijacked Blizzard's platform, broke the ELUA, and jeopardized the ability of Blizzard to do business in one of its major markets.
Blizzard choosing to stay apolitical =/= complicity with China.
If the people who are outraged over this want to be consistent and non hypocritical, they should show this outrage to companies such as Apple, Nike, Ford, GM, Costco, Walmart, etc as well.
If you really want to go down the rabbit hole, the U.S. and its NATO cronies have engaged in practices that violate human rights as well. Might as well speak out against NATO countries and companies associated with them as well.
It’s not apolitical at all, it’s overly punitive and clearly intended to curry favour with Chinese sensibilities.
One can go down the rabbit hole, ultimately Blizzard is one such entity I can actually withhold my consent from via my wallet, which I cannot directly do to even the government of my own country.
On October 10 2019 05:33 chuchuchu wrote: Even Wikipedia has debates about whether there is a massacre in Tiananmen (1989).
There are no debates on Wikipedia about whether the massacre happened. People are allowed to debate on the wiki debate page, and on there anyone and whomever can say whatever the heck they please. That never makes it onto the actual article itself, which requires sources for everything you post.
And there are plenty of sources for Tiananmen square. There's fucking photos of it! And they have existed since before Photoshop was a thing.
Are you questioning my ability to use the network?
However, it seems that it is hard to say clearly with Westerners and whites. After all, it is a country that relies on the slave trade and the ethnic groups of Africa and the Americas are extinct.
I would like to know that Americans are afraid when they are lying on the land where Indians and blacks are buried.
So far you have compared the Hong Kong protesters with the KKK, I think you called me stupid, it's hard to know for sure with your English, you are denying the tiananmen square massacre happened and now you start to get racist about "whites". I wonder where you'll go next!
Westerners still believe that they are on the side of democracy and freedom. Instead of standing in the US-China trade war and the Sino-US dispute, it stands on the side of the United States. Hong Kong and the NBA are just a continuation of this struggle. You are like a high school student. Disappointed
Is the fact of the statement racial discrimination? very funny. Just like you won't praise me for accepting the Cultural Revolution. Is it freedom of speech? When things are reversed, when a Chinese person in turn accuses the West of being racist, it is brainwashed and persecuted. I am only suspecting the tears of the crocodile. Because Western society is the beneficiary of the collapse of Chinese society.
If I am racist, I will not mention that I love nasa and love Kennedy. As you are ridiculous about my remarks, I also treat your remarks like this.
You call me the AI of high school students. Indeed, because my native language is Chinese, using Google Translate allows me to express a lot of things faster. I at least think that my English is better than your Chinese.
Of course you won't care, but still laugh at my English. Emm, this is what I want to say. Because you are born to think that you are right, think that everyone should speak English and think that you are on the side of justice.
Yes, I said it is a fact, and you should believe in what I believe. It is not difficult to explain why there are always many missionaries in the West, and even in the most glorious time in history, the East did not send a missionary to the West.
You can say all of those horrible things about westerners, and nobody will fire you from your job or take away things you've earned. You can peddle wild and offensive conspiracy theories that are refuted by literally hundreds of people who witnessed the events, moved away, and have been allowed to speak about their firsthand experiences, and suffer essentially no negative consequences at all. That's the difference between mainland China and the West. That's the whole point of why people in HK are upset.
On October 10 2019 08:59 RealityTheGreat wrote: Blizzard doesn't like to mix up politic and games. For example, no Blizzard Game bases on real world politic background.
Games and politics are always going to be related: They are quite happy to get into politics when they make Tracer a woman who likes woman.
They want to avoid all the argument, but this(Tracer) is not a correct decision. When the player said those, Blizzard obey its rule, not for politic.
On October 09 2019 15:19 abuse wrote: You say mixing up sports and politics is frowned upon, yet, Blizzard is allowed to be as political as they want. Do you know that in the Overwatch league the Taiwanese team isn't called Taiwan but "Chinese Taipei" and the players are not allowed to even use their own country's flag because Blizzard doesn't want to kiss up to China to enter their market, and China thinks Taiwan is still their territory.
And south tirolean athletes are forced to compete under the italian flag, and there's the organizer's egalitarian ads in soccer matches and so on. Of course, sports are used for political agitation, but that doesn't make adding to it less bad.
First off, South Tyrol isn't a country(not recognized at least). Taiwan is. Second, you're just proving my point here. Organizations can do whatever the fuck they want, both in my case and .
First, Taiwan is not a country. United Nation does not recognize it. United States does not recognize it. Russia does not recognize it. United Kingdom, France, and all European Union countries do not recognize it. Most countries in the world do not recognize it. Even Taiwan's own "constitution", claim itself as part of China, under the name of "Republic of China". Technically, the mainland and the government in the island are still at full war state, and there is not even a cease fire. Second, Blizzard has its rules and will follow it. Anyone who compete an official competition also must accept it. If someone break the rules, whatever it is cheating or insulting other people, Blizzard has and will use its power. Not only Blizzard, most major sports organizations all have such rules. One example is FIFA, which bans all politics in any soccer event. 3. The riots and terrorists in Hong Kong do not seek freedom of speech. They seek freedom of making crimes and separation by force. They burn subway and banks, loot shops, block airport, and attack police, tourists and random people on street. If anyone want to support such actions, I assume that they are no difference with 9/11 attackers.
good for you! I can not believe these people go this far! No discussion about politic view is right or wrong,the rules are just no politics in game, isn't it clear enough? or the HK guy just said something you guys like to hear, rules are gone? so how abOut plAyers say Hk/TW belOngs to ChIna instead of glhf in game? I guess it's not OK because you guys are soso double standard
It was not said in the game. It was said outside the game in the extra content section that I hardly ever watch in e-sports or normal sports. Secondly, the punishment is not proportional with the action. If the action was a warning (perhaps a minor fine) with the VOD up with a disclaimer added there would be no thread here. Third, if somebody is of that opinion and made it in the extra section that is there to tell you more about the players to personalize them I wouldn't think it is wrong. I would not agree with their opinion and likely lose respect for them as a person but would not request them to remove the VOD.
It is not hate speech in either case. Somebody going out and saying kill all the police or kill all the Islamic people in China in a serious way would deserve a similar response as what this got. Especially if they pushed people to join them in the actions. Stating support with a moment that is mostly positive or pointing out current political problems doesn't really match that.
I don't think in-game or in pre/after game interviews are that different. The guy was using BLZ‘ platform to do this. IF this is ok, everyone can use it to state his/her views about politics,races,religions, or at least, some commercial ads. How about that ? These can be the Vioce Matters! Go hell the Games!
On October 10 2019 08:59 RealityTheGreat wrote: Blizzard doesn't like to mix up politic and games. For example, no Blizzard Game bases on real world politic background.
Games and politics are always going to be related: They are quite happy to get into politics when they make Tracer a woman who likes woman.
They want to avoid all the argument, but this(Tracer) is not a correct decision. When the player said those, Blizzard obey its rule, not for politic.
They want to avoid all the argument
Well that went well lol.
Blizzard obey its rule, not for politic
Read the rule. All rules are political when it comes to enforcement. This one is especially so as the text of the rule emphasises its arbitrary nature. Sole discretion. Yes Blizzard are enforcing their rules, but when the rule is an arbitrary one people will call them out on it. The decision that blizzard made to enforce is political. No getting round it.
Blizzard could also ban a hearthstone player for saying "women deserve the right to vote". It would be a lot less of a contentious statement but there is a public out there who don't believe women should be allowed to vote, and thus at Blizzards sole discretion, they could penalise this theoretical hearthstone player too.
On October 10 2019 11:09 Meta wrote: You can say all of those horrible things about westerners, and nobody will fire you from your job or take away things you've earned. You can peddle wild and offensive conspiracy theories that are refuted by literally hundreds of people who witnessed the events, moved away, and have been allowed to speak about their firsthand experiences, and suffer essentially no negative consequences at all. That's the difference between mainland China and the West. That's the whole point of why people in HK are upset.
There is one thing you cannot say (at least in the United States) and that is "I want to organize a union at my workplace". Somehow, despite all the laws protecting employees who want to unionize, many are fired for having such an idea. That is because employee solidarity threatens capitalism. This incident is a good opportunity to push the video game industry towards a union and worker coop model of organization. We can demand Blizzard give employees more decision making power and gradually demand more and more until defacto ownership is in the hands of the employees (this plan might be difficult). A easier plan, at the same time we can encourage Blizzard employees to unite together and work towards a common goal. This unity can lay foundations for starting a union and give them more power over Actiblizz management. We should look for chances to pressure other companies in all industries to transform into coops and also encourage workers to organize action against business decisions they disagree with.
On October 09 2019 15:19 abuse wrote: You say mixing up sports and politics is frowned upon, yet, Blizzard is allowed to be as political as they want. Do you know that in the Overwatch league the Taiwanese team isn't called Taiwan but "Chinese Taipei" and the players are not allowed to even use their own country's flag because Blizzard doesn't want to kiss up to China to enter their market, and China thinks Taiwan is still their territory.
And south tirolean athletes are forced to compete under the italian flag, and there's the organizer's egalitarian ads in soccer matches and so on. Of course, sports are used for political agitation, but that doesn't make adding to it less bad.
First off, South Tyrol isn't a country(not recognized at least). Taiwan is. Second, you're just proving my point here. Organizations can do whatever the fuck they want, both in my case and .
First, Taiwan is not a country. United Nation does not recognize it. United States does not recognize it. Russia does not recognize it. United Kingdom, France, and all European Union countries do not recognize it. Most countries in the world do not recognize it. Even Taiwan's own "constitution", claim itself as part of China, under the name of "Republic of China". Technically, the mainland and the government in the island are still at full war state, and there is not even a cease fire. Second, Blizzard has its rules and will follow it. Anyone who compete an official competition also must accept it. If someone break the rules, whatever it is cheating or insulting other people, Blizzard has and will use its power. Not only Blizzard, most major sports organizations all have such rules. One example is FIFA, which bans all politics in any soccer event. 3. The riots and terrorists in Hong Kong do not seek freedom of speech. They seek freedom of making crimes and separation by force. They burn subway and banks, loot shops, block airport, and attack police, tourists and random people on street. If anyone want to support such actions, I assume that they are no difference with 9/11 attackers.
good for you! I can not believe these people go this far! No discussion about politic view is right or wrong,the rules are just no politics in game, isn't it clear enough? or the HK guy just said something you guys like to hear, rules are gone? so how abOut plAyers say Hk/TW belOngs to ChIna instead of glhf in game? I guess it's not OK because you guys are soso double standard
It was not said in the game. It was said outside the game in the extra content section that I hardly ever watch in e-sports or normal sports. Secondly, the punishment is not proportional with the action. If the action was a warning (perhaps a minor fine) with the VOD up with a disclaimer added there would be no thread here. Third, if somebody is of that opinion and made it in the extra section that is there to tell you more about the players to personalize them I wouldn't think it is wrong. I would not agree with their opinion and likely lose respect for them as a person but would not request them to remove the VOD.
It is not hate speech in either case. Somebody going out and saying kill all the police or kill all the Islamic people in China in a serious way would deserve a similar response as what this got. Especially if they pushed people to join them in the actions. Stating support with a moment that is mostly positive or pointing out current political problems doesn't really match that.
I don't think in-game or in pre/after game interviews are that different. The guy was using BLZ‘ platform to do this. IF this is ok, everyone can use it to state his/her views about politics,races,religions, or at least, some commercial ads. How about that ? These can be the Vioce Matters! Go hell the Games!
In sports, gaming, and exports, it is universally accepted in the west that it is a good, positive, healthy thing to allow the victor to speak in solidarity with groups like the protesters in Hong Kong just as Blitzchung did. It's been that way since my grandparents were born, and earlier. After you lift your trophy (literally or figuratively) you are given time to speak. In this case, the player said something objectively positive and in opposition to objectively inhumane behavior. Under normal circumstances, this would have been celebrated briefly with applause and kind comments theb, likely, largely forgotten about outside of Asia. Instead, Blizzard chose to start a shit storm.
On October 09 2019 20:00 Alejandrisha wrote: what a crock of shit. spineless executives bowing to communist regime. the people who own you are the people you cannot criticize.
They aren't bowing to a communist regime. China is a capitalist regime and Blizzard's actions are fully in line with capitalism. They are still totally spineless of course, and they are fully aware that money owns them.
there is no capitalism without free press. there are positive externalites in taking a stand against suppression of expression
A free press is not an essential of capitalism, it is an essential of freedom. Two different concepts. Capitalism only needs the flow of money to be concentrated to be spent. And China and their ruling party understands capitalism oh so very well, which is why they can use it to their advantage.
Their capitalistic system undergoes many different descriptions over time, but the most popular one seems to be "state capitalism" at the moment, if you want to read up on how exactly China has captured the world market with its capitalsim.
Wow, you really butchered and perverted the definition of Capitalism. Adam Smith is rolling in his grave.
cap·i·tal·ism /ˈkapədlˌizəm/ noun an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state. "an era of free-market capitalism"
China's trade and industry are heavily manipulated by the state.
On October 10 2019 12:01 BronzeKnee wrote: Wow, you really butchered and perverted the definition of Capitalism. Adam Smith is rolling in his grave.
cap·i·tal·ism /ˈkapədlˌizəm/ noun an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state. "an era of free-market capitalism"
China's trade and industry are heavily manipulated by the state.
China is known as state capitalism. It is similar to Bismark's Germany and Japan from Meiji era on wards. The state directs investment and controls major industries such as steel, coal, railways, etc. but operates these industries according to principals of capitalism: profit and expansion, rather than to satisfy human needs. Other sectors are dominated by private firms and operate also for profit.
This is quite similar in nature to both happenings in the NFL, and the NBA. In the NFL a number of players made political actions by refusing to stand for the national anthem. Some folks laud them for it, others dispise them for it.
In the NBA, an owner (of the Houston Rockets) also backed those in HongKong. At first, the NBA started to ostrasize him, but in the end, at least stood up for his freedom to do so. China, took severe action in response to this by cutting all tv of games there, as well as other punishments.
I think this is probably more similar to the latter due to the obvious financial losses that are possible now that companies are so integrated in the global market. Their bottom line is more important than another's freedom.
On October 10 2019 12:01 BronzeKnee wrote: Wow, you really butchered and perverted the definition of Capitalism. Adam Smith is rolling in his grave.
cap·i·tal·ism /ˈkapədlˌizəm/ noun an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state. "an era of free-market capitalism"
China's trade and industry are heavily manipulated by the state.
China is known as state capitalism. It is similar to Bismark's Germany and Japan from Meiji era on wards. The state directs investment and controls major industries such as steel, coal, railways, etc. but operates these industries according to principals of capitalism: profit and expansion, rather than to satisfy human needs. Other sectors are dominated by private firms and operate also for profit.
"State capitalism" doesn't exist, mutually exclusive concepts. It'd be like saying big government libertarians, it just makes no sense.
Have you not read The Wealth of Nations? Control doesn't have to mean ownership. There is no invisible hand when China is manipulating their currency. No invisible hand when tariffs are being applied.
The destruction of capitalism worldwide is threatening freedom. This case is no different, if people can't punish a company with the wallets then we are lost.
They should have just given him a warning. Or suspended him for a day or something. That would have appeased China enough but not created such an uproar.
Or, not said anything - I don't think there would have been a huge backlash. Its not like Blizzard said it, just one of their employees.
Everyone is scared because of the Dolce Gabana PR nightmare in China but that was actual Dolce Gabana making dumb statements toward China.
A random player on Hearthstone? This was way overkill and now they're taking a ton of backlash on the other side. Dumb move.
On October 09 2019 15:19 abuse wrote: You say mixing up sports and politics is frowned upon, yet, Blizzard is allowed to be as political as they want. Do you know that in the Overwatch league the Taiwanese team isn't called Taiwan but "Chinese Taipei" and the players are not allowed to even use their own country's flag because Blizzard doesn't want to kiss up to China to enter their market, and China thinks Taiwan is still their territory.
And south tirolean athletes are forced to compete under the italian flag, and there's the organizer's egalitarian ads in soccer matches and so on. Of course, sports are used for political agitation, but that doesn't make adding to it less bad.
First off, South Tyrol isn't a country(not recognized at least). Taiwan is. Second, you're just proving my point here. Organizations can do whatever the fuck they want, both in my case and .
First, Taiwan is not a country. United Nation does not recognize it. United States does not recognize it. Russia does not recognize it. United Kingdom, France, and all European Union countries do not recognize it. Most countries in the world do not recognize it. Even Taiwan's own "constitution", claim itself as part of China, under the name of "Republic of China". Technically, the mainland and the government in the island are still at full war state, and there is not even a cease fire. Second, Blizzard has its rules and will follow it. Anyone who compete an official competition also must accept it. If someone break the rules, whatever it is cheating or insulting other people, Blizzard has and will use its power. Not only Blizzard, most major sports organizations all have such rules. One example is FIFA, which bans all politics in any soccer event. 3. The riots and terrorists in Hong Kong do not seek freedom of speech. They seek freedom of making crimes and separation by force. They burn subway and banks, loot shops, block airport, and attack police, tourists and random people on street. If anyone want to support such actions, I assume that they are no difference with 9/11 attackers.
good for you! I can not believe these people go this far! No discussion about politic view is right or wrong,the rules are just no politics in game, isn't it clear enough? or the HK guy just said something you guys like to hear, rules are gone? so how abOut plAyers say Hk/TW belOngs to ChIna instead of glhf in game? I guess it's not OK because you guys are soso double standard
It was not said in the game. It was said outside the game in the extra content section that I hardly ever watch in e-sports or normal sports. Secondly, the punishment is not proportional with the action. If the action was a warning (perhaps a minor fine) with the VOD up with a disclaimer added there would be no thread here. Third, if somebody is of that opinion and made it in the extra section that is there to tell you more about the players to personalize them I wouldn't think it is wrong. I would not agree with their opinion and likely lose respect for them as a person but would not request them to remove the VOD.
It is not hate speech in either case. Somebody going out and saying kill all the police or kill all the Islamic people in China in a serious way would deserve a similar response as what this got. Especially if they pushed people to join them in the actions. Stating support with a moment that is mostly positive or pointing out current political problems doesn't really match that.
I don't think in-game or in pre/after game interviews are that different. The guy was using BLZ‘ platform to do this. IF this is ok, everyone can use it to state his/her views about politics,races,religions, or at least, some commercial ads. How about that ? These can be the Vioce Matters! Go hell the Games!
In sports, gaming, and exports, it is universally accepted in the west that it is a good, positive, healthy thing to allow the victor to speak in solidarity with groups like the protesters in Hong Kong just as Blitzchung did. It's been that way since my grandparents were born, and earlier. After you lift your trophy (literally or figuratively) you are given time to speak. In this case, the player said something objectively positive and in opposition to objectively inhumane behavior. Under normal circumstances, this would have been celebrated briefly with applause and kind comments theb, likely, largely forgotten about outside of Asia. Instead, Blizzard chose to start a shit storm.
so finally，it is the problem of good or bad，and it MUST judged by YOU people？ I think they are riots with “freedom”“democracy” in their mouth，gasoline bottles and sticks in their hands，can my idea be RIGHT？ Can my voice be the voice matters？ So before every e-sports or sports game，Lets talk about those things？everyplayer have same time，like 15 or 30min？
On October 09 2019 15:19 abuse wrote: You say mixing up sports and politics is frowned upon, yet, Blizzard is allowed to be as political as they want. Do you know that in the Overwatch league the Taiwanese team isn't called Taiwan but "Chinese Taipei" and the players are not allowed to even use their own country's flag because Blizzard doesn't want to kiss up to China to enter their market, and China thinks Taiwan is still their territory.
And south tirolean athletes are forced to compete under the italian flag, and there's the organizer's egalitarian ads in soccer matches and so on. Of course, sports are used for political agitation, but that doesn't make adding to it less bad.
First off, South Tyrol isn't a country(not recognized at least). Taiwan is. Second, you're just proving my point here. Organizations can do whatever the fuck they want, both in my case and .
First, Taiwan is not a country. United Nation does not recognize it. United States does not recognize it. Russia does not recognize it. United Kingdom, France, and all European Union countries do not recognize it. Most countries in the world do not recognize it. Even Taiwan's own "constitution", claim itself as part of China, under the name of "Republic of China". Technically, the mainland and the government in the island are still at full war state, and there is not even a cease fire. Second, Blizzard has its rules and will follow it. Anyone who compete an official competition also must accept it. If someone break the rules, whatever it is cheating or insulting other people, Blizzard has and will use its power. Not only Blizzard, most major sports organizations all have such rules. One example is FIFA, which bans all politics in any soccer event. 3. The riots and terrorists in Hong Kong do not seek freedom of speech. They seek freedom of making crimes and separation by force. They burn subway and banks, loot shops, block airport, and attack police, tourists and random people on street. If anyone want to support such actions, I assume that they are no difference with 9/11 attackers.
good for you! I can not believe these people go this far! No discussion about politic view is right or wrong,the rules are just no politics in game, isn't it clear enough? or the HK guy just said something you guys like to hear, rules are gone? so how abOut plAyers say Hk/TW belOngs to ChIna instead of glhf in game? I guess it's not OK because you guys are soso double standard
It was not said in the game. It was said outside the game in the extra content section that I hardly ever watch in e-sports or normal sports. Secondly, the punishment is not proportional with the action. If the action was a warning (perhaps a minor fine) with the VOD up with a disclaimer added there would be no thread here. Third, if somebody is of that opinion and made it in the extra section that is there to tell you more about the players to personalize them I wouldn't think it is wrong. I would not agree with their opinion and likely lose respect for them as a person but would not request them to remove the VOD.
It is not hate speech in either case. Somebody going out and saying kill all the police or kill all the Islamic people in China in a serious way would deserve a similar response as what this got. Especially if they pushed people to join them in the actions. Stating support with a moment that is mostly positive or pointing out current political problems doesn't really match that.
I don't think in-game or in pre/after game interviews are that different. The guy was using BLZ‘ platform to do this. IF this is ok, everyone can use it to state his/her views about politics,races,religions, or at least, some commercial ads. How about that ? These can be the Vioce Matters! Go hell the Games!
In sports, gaming, and exports, it is universally accepted in the west that it is a good, positive, healthy thing to allow the victor to speak in solidarity with groups like the protesters in Hong Kong just as Blitzchung did. It's been that way since my grandparents were born, and earlier. After you lift your trophy (literally or figuratively) you are given time to speak. In this case, the player said something objectively positive and in opposition to objectively inhumane behavior. Under normal circumstances, this would have been celebrated briefly with applause and kind comments theb, likely, largely forgotten about outside of Asia. Instead, Blizzard chose to start a shit storm.
It's not actually well recived, remember Kaepernick or Tommie Smith and John Carlos in Mexico? But obviously the problem here is more that the Chinese government is pressuring everyone they can to protect their image and close the revolution, good luck to those keeping up the fight, I hope China revel itself weaker than it look.
On October 10 2019 12:01 BronzeKnee wrote: Wow, you really butchered and perverted the definition of Capitalism. Adam Smith is rolling in his grave.
cap·i·tal·ism /ˈkapədlˌizəm/ noun an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state. "an era of free-market capitalism"
China's trade and industry are heavily manipulated by the state.
China is known as state capitalism. It is similar to Bismark's Germany and Japan from Meiji era on wards. The state directs investment and controls major industries such as steel, coal, railways, etc. but operates these industries according to principals of capitalism: profit and expansion, rather than to satisfy human needs. Other sectors are dominated by private firms and operate also for profit.
"State capitalism" doesn't exist, mutually exclusive concepts. Control doesn't have to mean ownership.
Has no one read The Wealth of Nations? There is no invisible hand when China is manipulating their currency. No invisible hand when tariffs are being applied.
You are misrepresenting Smith. The invisible hand is a tiny concept mentioned once and is used in an argument that capital and labor working for profit in domestic industry brings good to all of society. It was Smith's way of saying that due to Gods benevolence, man working towards his own profit brings good to all of creation. Whether or not this statement is true can be studied and debated. However you cannot elevate a small concept mentioned once in Smith's master piece as the defining characteristic of capitalism.
But the annual revenue of every society is always precisely equal to the exchangeable value of the whole annual produce of its industry, or ratheris precisely the same thing with that exchangeable value. As every individual, therefore, endeavours as much as he can both to employ his capital in the support of domestic industry, and so to direct that industry that it sproduce may be of the greatest value; every individual necessarily laboursto render the annual revenue of the society as great as he can. He generally, indeed, neither intends to promote the public interest, nor knows how much he is promoting it. By preferring the support of domestic to that offoreign industry, he intends only his own security; and by directing that industry in such a manner as its produce may be of the greatest value, he intends only his own gain, and he is in this, as in many other cases, led by an invisiblehand to promote an end which was no part of his intention. Nor is it always the worse for the society that it was no part of it.'
On October 10 2019 08:59 RealityTheGreat wrote: Blizzard doesn't like to mix up politic and games. For example, no Blizzard Game bases on real world politic background.
Games and politics are always going to be related: They are quite happy to get into politics when they make Tracer a woman who likes woman.
They want to avoid all the argument, but this(Tracer) is not a correct decision. When the player said those, Blizzard obey its rule, not for politic.
They want to avoid all the argument
Well that went well lol.
Blizzard obey its rule, not for politic
Read the rule. All rules are political when it comes to enforcement. This one is especially so as the text of the rule emphasises its arbitrary nature. Sole discretion. Yes Blizzard are enforcing their rules, but when the rule is an arbitrary one people will call them out on it. The decision that blizzard made to enforce is political. No getting round it.
Blizzard could also ban a hearthstone player for saying "women deserve the right to vote". It would be a lot less of a contentious statement but there is a public out there who don't believe women should be allowed to vote, and thus at Blizzards sole discretion, they could penalise this theoretical hearthstone player too.
There should be one more reason for Blizzard, except supporting independence of HK or China government. We watch game for fun, not for politics. People think Blizzard's choice is supporting China government, it is a mistake. The banned player damaged Blizzard image.
On October 10 2019 08:59 RealityTheGreat wrote: Blizzard doesn't like to mix up politic and games. For example, no Blizzard Game bases on real world politic background.
Games and politics are always going to be related: They are quite happy to get into politics when they make Tracer a woman who likes woman.
They want to avoid all the argument, but this(Tracer) is not a correct decision. When the player said those, Blizzard obey its rule, not for politic.
They want to avoid all the argument
Well that went well lol.
Blizzard obey its rule, not for politic
Read the rule. All rules are political when it comes to enforcement. This one is especially so as the text of the rule emphasises its arbitrary nature. Sole discretion. Yes Blizzard are enforcing their rules, but when the rule is an arbitrary one people will call them out on it. The decision that blizzard made to enforce is political. No getting round it.
Blizzard could also ban a hearthstone player for saying "women deserve the right to vote". It would be a lot less of a contentious statement but there is a public out there who don't believe women should be allowed to vote, and thus at Blizzards sole discretion, they could penalise this theoretical hearthstone player too.
There should be one more reason for Blizzard, except supporting independence of HK or China government. We watch game for fun, not for politics. People think Blizzard's choice is supporting China government, it is a mistake. The banned player damaged Blizzard image.
One way to prove that is to ban pro-China government statement as well. But that would probably make life of Blizzard even harder...
Good thing being a capitalist gives me a good reason to be an asshole (and I LOVE being an asshole). And that reason is what else? The only thing that matters, moneh moneh moneh moneeeeh, mAAneeeeh. As I sit on my moral (and greeen) high horse, I’ve got a good reason to kick you naysayers in the balls if it makes me more money, and would feel perfectly justified in doing so. Your hippie crap logic is forfeit (as well as your balls) because money is the be-all and end-all, and anyone thinking otherwise has GOT to be insane. Don’t even waste your time arguing with me, cause you’d be wasting my time. Common human decency is but a handicap if you want to play the game, and I’m a fuckin’ progamer son, almighty dollah-aah, mo-neh.
Oh yea, and Blitzchunk or whatever his name is BROKE TEH FUCKING RULES AS STATED IN BLIZZARD’S CONTRACT/TERMS OF SERVICE Didn’t they teach you kids to respect the rules and laws in school? Without rules and laws, what would we have? That’s right, absolute CHAOS. I think it’s worth giving up some freedoms in exchange for peace and stability (and also money). I would gladly be China’s dog if I got another yacht (or several) out of it, I don’t care how short the leash is. I wouldn’t be just any dog, I’d be CAPTAIN dog, bitches *woof*
Good thing people have short memories and Blizzard executives be like, wait a couple of weeks for this thing to blow over when people forget and chase the newest scandal, just in time for BlizzCon! (anyone else get their tickets?) And if there’s still some stubborn people who just wouldn’t let things go, Blizzard can always play the “Let’s make another Overwatch character gay” card just to show everyone how progressive they are. Who do you think it’s going to be? Place your bets now! Personally, I’m hoping for Mei/Dva/Hanzo.
Blizzard could also ban a hearthstone player for saying "women deserve the right to vote". It would be a lot less of a contentious statement but there is a public out there who don't believe women should be allowed to vote, and thus at Blizzards sole discretion, they could penalise this theoretical hearthstone player too.
I think nobody here has made a complaint about Blizzard (or anyone) trying to keep political statements away from official gamingstreams or their tournaments.
The way they did it (in this case) just shows that they are willing to bend the knee to chinese state censorship, because they know that the propaganda machinery can destroy their marketshare within days, or that their services will be outright banned.
And they are not alone. And it is not about "gaming" or "sports". It's everywhere.
Right now:
Southpark is outright banned in China for S23 clearly stating how they feel about chinese propaganda interacting with western companies. - In 2018 Google re-entered China - with censored services - NBA is under fire for ONE PERSON retweeting "Support HK" - Blizzard was under fire for not controlling their Stream quickly enough, quickly to destroy not only the players career, but also the one of the casters/interviewers - The shoemaker "Vans" withdrew a design from a contest, because it featured a red bauhinia flower and yellow umbrella (Symbol of HK Protestors) and people in gas masks - Apple is accused of not taking down Apps from the AppStore that are used by HK protestors - At least they have not pulled the app as of yet. - Luxury jewellery retailer "Tiffany &Co" deleted pictures of an advertisement campaign in which the model covered her right eye - a similar picture to the HK paramedic that got shot in the eye with rubber bullets
If you think, this is all about one player who misbehaved and got the punishment he deserved.. you are wrong.
If western companies globally take down content, in fear of chinese propaganda turning it against them in the chinese market, and people who are protesting beijing breaking promises to Hong Kong have to open umbrellas to not be monitored by facial recognition camera towers, than reality has become a dystopia.
Edit:
Aaaaaaaaaaand Apple has pulled the App from Appstore HongKong
Thank you for sharing this, that is absolutely bloody insane.
Blizzard practically shut down the option for people to delete their Blizzard account.
So Blizzard want to suck up to China but if any of their customers in the west disagree with their low morals and dont want to be a customer of Blizzard anymore they have to be? They literally took away our option to opt out of this disgusting company. Not only are their actions abhorrent, when they realize how much bad publicity this hsa gotten their reaction isn't to issue a statment and retract the wrong that they did, they instead try to take away our option to leave?
For anyone still talking about he broke the rules he deserved to be punished. He literally broke the rule that says: - Don't do anything Blizzard don't like or we will punish you.
According to the rules Blizzard could enac the same punishment on a player wearing a green shirt on air, because showing that specific colour could be offensive to X minority. Even though Blizzard would be in the right to do so according to the rules do you all think something like that would be fair? If you really think a rules are always fine no matter how badly they are written then you are in my opinion, a fool.
Edit: I have said this over and over, even if you think the punishment agains the player was fair. What about the casters?
If only all these people put all thsi effort to force their government to do something. But unfortunetally, we live in a time when people care more about Blizzard then their own politicians and what their own government does...
On October 10 2019 10:50 BerserkSword wrote: Blizzard was completely within its rights regarding the actions it took, and it did nothing wrong.
It is trying to maintain access to its 2nd/3rd biggest market, and likely its most rapidly growing market.
freedom of speech =/= saying whatever you want, whenever you want, without consequences.
The HS player hijacked Blizzard's platform, broke the ELUA, and jeopardized the ability of Blizzard to do business in one of its major markets.
Blizzard choosing to stay apolitical =/= complicity with China.
If the people who are outraged over this want to be consistent and non hypocritical, they should show this outrage to companies such as Apple, Nike, Ford, GM, Costco, Walmart, etc as well.
If you really want to go down the rabbit hole, the U.S. and its NATO cronies have engaged in practices that violate human rights as well. Might as well speak out against NATO countries and companies associated with them as well.
So why exactly were the two casters fired? What EULA did they break?
Let's not fool ourselves thinking this has got anything to do with EULA. It has everything to do about Blizzard desire to get into the chinese market.
The same shit is happening with NBA now. It's either you support an oppressive regime or you lose billions of dollars.
Repeatedly throughout history they have been doubted and mocked. I know first hand that they are intelligent, courageous, passionate and strong. They possess a rich history in philosophy, science and mathematics. They put their families and communities before themselves and act with the utmost generosity to those in dire need.
And whilst the spotlight is on China for its present and past human rights abuses, we must not shy away from bringing our awareness to such abuses in our own Western nations. For we all know too well the heinous crimes against humanity that colonialism has wrought throughout the world and the unjust wars we have entered into.
The responsible and unbiased line then, is to allow the question to arise:
'Who are WE to condemn China for their actions, when our own nations have repeatedly committed worse?'
Then WE are forced to answer: We are those who will not tolerate human rights abuses upon the planet. We are not a nation, we are humans of this earth who believe humans have inalienable rights, rights that each and everyone one of us is born with.
And it is our belief in humanity itself that offers a golden glimmer of hope from the Blizzard - Hearthstone debacle, the detentions in Xinjiang, the protests in Hong Kong, the corruption in Western democracies and its unjustly waged wars:
We know it will come to pass that the Chinese people will join hands with us and us with them and together, like the phoenix, we will rise up from ashes of dead soldiers and citizens alike to overthrow the corrupt dictatorship of the Communist Chinese Party with its indefinitely installed demigod like leader Xi Xinping.
And we will do the same to any other nation that commits human rights abuses on such a scale.
Thank you for sharing this, that is absolutely bloody insane.
Blizzard practically shut down the option for people to delete their Blizzard account.
So Blizzard want to suck up to China but if any of their customers in the west disagree with their low morals and dont want to be a customer of Blizzard anymore they have to be? They literally took away our option to opt out of this disgusting company. Not only are their actions abhorrent, when they realize how much bad publicity this hsa gotten their reaction isn't to issue a statment and retract the wrong that they did, they instead try to take away our option to leave?
For anyone still talking about he broke the rules he deserved to be punished. He literally broke the rule that says: - Don't do anything Blizzard don't like or we will punish you.
According to the rules Blizzard could enac the same punishment on a player wearing a green shirt on air, because showing that specific colour could be offensive to X minority. Even though Blizzard would be in the right to do so according to the rules do you all think something like that would be fair? If you really think a rules are always fine no matter how badly they are written then you are in my opinion, a fool.
I don´t know if blizzard has actually disabled the feature, or this is just "a bug" that one person has.
For sure, deleting your account, with all the games and MTX on it will be the only consequent way that you never touch Blizzard products ever again. Just deleting the app or a WoW sub would take unhuman willpower to not ever getting back into the (very good) games.
Right now Blizzard just expects this to blow over, and that the impact on western market will not be that high, because players that #boycottblizzard will come back anyway, and most people just won't ever notice what's going on in the first place.
Thank you for sharing this, that is absolutely bloody insane.
Blizzard practically shut down the option for people to delete their Blizzard account.
So Blizzard want to suck up to China but if any of their customers in the west disagree with their low morals and dont want to be a customer of Blizzard anymore they have to be? They literally took away our option to opt out of this disgusting company. Not only are their actions abhorrent, when they realize how much bad publicity this hsa gotten their reaction isn't to issue a statment and retract the wrong that they did, they instead try to take away our option to leave?
For anyone still talking about he broke the rules he deserved to be punished. He literally broke the rule that says: - Don't do anything Blizzard don't like or we will punish you.
According to the rules Blizzard could enac the same punishment on a player wearing a green shirt on air, because showing that specific colour could be offensive to X minority. Even though Blizzard would be in the right to do so according to the rules do you all think something like that would be fair? If you really think a rules are always fine no matter how badly they are written then you are in my opinion, a fool.
I don´t know if blizzard has actually disabled the feature, or this is just "a bug" that one person has.
For sure, deleting your account, with all the games and MTX on it will be the only consequent way that you never touch Blizzard products ever again. Just deleting the app or a WoW sub would take unhuman willpower to not ever getting back into the (very good) games.
Right now Blizzard just expects this to blow over, and that the impact on western market will not be that high, because players that #boycottblizzard will come back anyway, and most people just won't ever notice what's going on in the first place.
On October 09 2019 15:19 abuse wrote: You say mixing up sports and politics is frowned upon, yet, Blizzard is allowed to be as political as they want. Do you know that in the Overwatch league the Taiwanese team isn't called Taiwan but "Chinese Taipei" and the players are not allowed to even use their own country's flag because Blizzard doesn't want to kiss up to China to enter their market, and China thinks Taiwan is still their territory.
And south tirolean athletes are forced to compete under the italian flag, and there's the organizer's egalitarian ads in soccer matches and so on. Of course, sports are used for political agitation, but that doesn't make adding to it less bad.
First off, South Tyrol isn't a country(not recognized at least). Taiwan is. Second, you're just proving my point here. Organizations can do whatever the fuck they want, both in my case and .
First, Taiwan is not a country. United Nation does not recognize it. United States does not recognize it. Russia does not recognize it. United Kingdom, France, and all European Union countries do not recognize it. Most countries in the world do not recognize it. Even Taiwan's own "constitution", claim itself as part of China, under the name of "Republic of China". Technically, the mainland and the government in the island are still at full war state, and there is not even a cease fire. Second, Blizzard has its rules and will follow it. Anyone who compete an official competition also must accept it. If someone break the rules, whatever it is cheating or insulting other people, Blizzard has and will use its power. Not only Blizzard, most major sports organizations all have such rules. One example is FIFA, which bans all politics in any soccer event. 3. The riots and terrorists in Hong Kong do not seek freedom of speech. They seek freedom of making crimes and separation by force. They burn subway and banks, loot shops, block airport, and attack police, tourists and random people on street. If anyone want to support such actions, I assume that they are no difference with 9/11 attackers.
Totally agreed. I am in hong kong right now. TL community has no idea what is actually going on in hong kong and how ridiculous, radical, and violent those riots have became.
Blizzard has disable the feature because it knows people outrage will be watered down in few months, a new thing will happen that will shift our focus. As it has happened countless of times before. Who still thinks of immigrants drown in the mediterranean? Or the amazonas on fire? And those are things that are currently happening... things in the past? I cant even recall them
Sad but true. We are shortsighted and we have to change
As a CHINESE Hong Kong citizen and who now lives in Hong Kong, I can tell you guys that the riots are seeking for the only purpose, which is the independence of Hong Kong, and in fact just some of hk citizens are holding this point of view (maybe 1/3, most of them are young people). For achieving their wish, they are destroying hk metro system, burn and destroy CHINESE banks, CHINESE national flags, beating mainland Chinese people or hk people who support the police. The commercial activity, tourism industry is totally broken, many of middle class and rich people are selling their property and preparing for immigration. It is 100% riot instead of peaceful protest. So I assume anyone who support this kind of activity shall support terrorism.
And also, every country have its own “political right”, like in the U.S, racist is the redline, in China territory is the redline, especially for those clear area (Taiwan is another issue, but hk is undoubtedly a part of China) . Yelling “free hk” to Chinese is the same with yelling “niggers are xxx” to American people (just an example no mean for offence), so when a guy comes out and say free hk or similar thing, relevant company must make a decision: respect Chinese “political right” or not.
And last but not least, the hk issue is not like what most of western people know, “a peaceful protest for seeking freedom” (at least not for now, maybe for the very beginning), and people shall make public comment or opinion after collecting some information and trying to know the fact.
On October 09 2019 15:19 abuse wrote: You say mixing up sports and politics is frowned upon, yet, Blizzard is allowed to be as political as they want. Do you know that in the Overwatch league the Taiwanese team isn't called Taiwan but "Chinese Taipei" and the players are not allowed to even use their own country's flag because Blizzard doesn't want to kiss up to China to enter their market, and China thinks Taiwan is still their territory.
And south tirolean athletes are forced to compete under the italian flag, and there's the organizer's egalitarian ads in soccer matches and so on. Of course, sports are used for political agitation, but that doesn't make adding to it less bad.
First off, South Tyrol isn't a country(not recognized at least). Taiwan is. Second, you're just proving my point here. Organizations can do whatever the fuck they want, both in my case and .
First, Taiwan is not a country. United Nation does not recognize it. United States does not recognize it. Russia does not recognize it. United Kingdom, France, and all European Union countries do not recognize it. Most countries in the world do not recognize it. Even Taiwan's own "constitution", claim itself as part of China, under the name of "Republic of China". Technically, the mainland and the government in the island are still at full war state, and there is not even a cease fire. Second, Blizzard has its rules and will follow it. Anyone who compete an official competition also must accept it. If someone break the rules, whatever it is cheating or insulting other people, Blizzard has and will use its power. Not only Blizzard, most major sports organizations all have such rules. One example is FIFA, which bans all politics in any soccer event. 3. The riots and terrorists in Hong Kong do not seek freedom of speech. They seek freedom of making crimes and separation by force. They burn subway and banks, loot shops, block airport, and attack police, tourists and random people on street. If anyone want to support such actions, I assume that they are no difference with 9/11 attackers.
Totally agreed. I am in hong kong right now. TL community has no idea what is actually going on in hong kong and how ridiculous, radical, and violent those riots have became.
I have no idea and I don't care "how bad" protesters are acting in HK right now. All that matters is that China should GTFO of HKs democractic system and honor the deal they signed 1984, give HK their autonomy as promised.
That in itself would solve those violent riots without having to resort to violence. That is not to say I support protesters doing violent actions but the problem is not the protests, its China not upholding its honor and respecting the deal they themselves signed.
On October 10 2019 16:25 deacon.frost wrote: If only all these people put all thsi effort to force their government to do something. But unfortunetally, we live in a time when people care more about Blizzard then their own politicians and what their own government does...
How do you know they aren't?
You might be surprised to hear this, but passionate gamers are not the only people living on this planet. There are plenty of overlap between gamers, and people who are passionate about politics. There are, however, also a lot of people out there who arent gamers and who's also not into politics.
Check out the TL US politics thread and you'll see plenty of people caring about politics there, and that's probably the most consistently busiest thread on all of TL.
People vision of violence is quite funny: Countries/politicians signing up documents to enforce laws that condemn millions to poverty and famine is consider a "non-violent act" yet those affected people rebelling against those documents is "violence" or some even suggest "terrorism"
1- We shouldn't talk about things we dont know shit about, and the protests in Hong Kong, their intensity, their reasons, historic background, etc. are one of those things. If we believe everything media tell us, well, we are stupid af. And i'm refering to both sides.
2- Its funny seeing most of these complains about Blizzard's sucking to a totalitarian regime come from the UUSS, a country that has been behaving like if they own the world and have been killing and invading other countries much more than China ever has... China has been repressing and killing people within their "country", USA has been doing it all over the world. In my opinion both countries are making the world a worse place, specially these last couple of years...
3- Are you really surprised about Blizzard's move??? They have been behaving like a heartless company for like a decade now... Then they associate with Netease and start developing Diablo Immortal basically for the chinese market... Of course they were gonna side with China, they would have done it with Satan if that meant they are gonna keep the benefits.
While I agree with the general feeling of "Blizzard sucking up to a totalitarian communist regime to keep the benefits" I can't help to see all the ignorance and the hypocrisy there is...
On October 10 2019 05:33 chuchuchu wrote: Even Wikipedia has debates about whether there is a massacre in Tiananmen (1989).
There are no debates on Wikipedia about whether the massacre happened. People are allowed to debate on the wiki debate page, and on there anyone and whomever can say whatever the heck they please. That never makes it onto the actual article itself, which requires sources for everything you post.
And there are plenty of sources for Tiananmen square. There's fucking photos of it! And they have existed since before Photoshop was a thing.
Are you questioning my ability to use the network?
However, it seems that it is hard to say clearly with Westerners and whites. After all, it is a country that relies on the slave trade and the ethnic groups of Africa and the Americas are extinct.
I would like to know that Americans are afraid when they are lying on the land where Indians and blacks are buried.
So far you have compared the Hong Kong protesters with the KKK, I think you called me stupid, it's hard to know for sure with your English, you are denying the tiananmen square massacre happened and now you start to get racist about "whites". I wonder where you'll go next!
Westerners still believe that they are on the side of democracy and freedom. Instead of standing in the US-China trade war and the Sino-US dispute, it stands on the side of the United States. Hong Kong and the NBA are just a continuation of this struggle. You are like a high school student. Disappointed
Is the fact of the statement racial discrimination? very funny. Just like you won't praise me for accepting the Cultural Revolution. Is it freedom of speech? When things are reversed, when a Chinese person in turn accuses the West of being racist, it is brainwashed and persecuted. I am only suspecting the tears of the crocodile. Because Western society is the beneficiary of the collapse of Chinese society.
If I am racist, I will not mention that I love nasa and love Kennedy. As you are ridiculous about my remarks, I also treat your remarks like this.
You call me the AI of high school students. Indeed, because my native language is Chinese, using Google Translate allows me to express a lot of things faster. I at least think that my English is better than your Chinese.
Of course you won't care, but still laugh at my English. Emm, this is what I want to say. Because you are born to think that you are right, think that everyone should speak English and think that you are on the side of justice.
Yes, I said it is a fact, and you should believe in what I believe. It is not difficult to explain why there are always many missionaries in the West, and even in the most glorious time in history, the East did not send a missionary to the West.
You can say all of those horrible things about westerners, and nobody will fire you from your job or take away things you've earned. You can peddle wild and offensive conspiracy theories that are refuted by literally hundreds of people who witnessed the events, moved away, and have been allowed to speak about their firsthand experiences, and suffer essentially no negative consequences at all. That's the difference between mainland China and the West. That's the whole point of why people in HK are upset.
Are you serious? I won’t lose my job in the U.S if I speak out for supporting racism or sexual discrimination? But you will not lose your job in China if you say so. Each country has its own “political right”, has its own “banned words”. Please don’t judge other people using your own standard.
Besides, as a hk citizen, I and many other hk people are upset about the current chaos caused by those riots, we hope their riots activities can be stopped. Also, their goal is the independence of hk and not the freedom, in fact no one is taking their freedom away.
On October 10 2019 16:51 CraigWT wrote: ... And also, every country have its own “political right”, like in the U.S, racist is the redline, in China territory is the redline, especially for those clear area (Taiwan is another issue, but hk is undoubtedly a part of China) . Yelling “free hk” to Chinese is the same with yelling “niggers are xxx” to American people (just an example no mean for offence), so when a guy comes out and say free hk or similar thing, relevant company must make a decision: respect Chinese “political right” or not. ....
Let me state it this way:
We have overcome the thinking that a human being is inferior because of his skin color. We have overcome the thinking that it would be okay to enslave people. And at least most people are even agreeing on racial slurs are bad, because they represent the things we already have overcome.
If your government tells you, it's equally offensive to honor contracts, made by a former party chairman compared to use racial slurs becaus you feel hate towards people you probably never talked to .. you are having a shitty government that tells you lies.
Hong Kong was promised "One Country, two Systems". Ever since Chinese government has decided to weaken this agreement, the protests began.
On October 10 2019 05:33 chuchuchu wrote: Even Wikipedia has debates about whether there is a massacre in Tiananmen (1989).
There are no debates on Wikipedia about whether the massacre happened. People are allowed to debate on the wiki debate page, and on there anyone and whomever can say whatever the heck they please. That never makes it onto the actual article itself, which requires sources for everything you post.
And there are plenty of sources for Tiananmen square. There's fucking photos of it! And they have existed since before Photoshop was a thing.
Are you questioning my ability to use the network?
However, it seems that it is hard to say clearly with Westerners and whites. After all, it is a country that relies on the slave trade and the ethnic groups of Africa and the Americas are extinct.
I would like to know that Americans are afraid when they are lying on the land where Indians and blacks are buried.
So far you have compared the Hong Kong protesters with the KKK, I think you called me stupid, it's hard to know for sure with your English, you are denying the tiananmen square massacre happened and now you start to get racist about "whites". I wonder where you'll go next!
Westerners still believe that they are on the side of democracy and freedom. Instead of standing in the US-China trade war and the Sino-US dispute, it stands on the side of the United States. Hong Kong and the NBA are just a continuation of this struggle. You are like a high school student. Disappointed
Is the fact of the statement racial discrimination? very funny. Just like you won't praise me for accepting the Cultural Revolution. Is it freedom of speech? When things are reversed, when a Chinese person in turn accuses the West of being racist, it is brainwashed and persecuted. I am only suspecting the tears of the crocodile. Because Western society is the beneficiary of the collapse of Chinese society.
If I am racist, I will not mention that I love nasa and love Kennedy. As you are ridiculous about my remarks, I also treat your remarks like this.
You call me the AI of high school students. Indeed, because my native language is Chinese, using Google Translate allows me to express a lot of things faster. I at least think that my English is better than your Chinese.
Of course you won't care, but still laugh at my English. Emm, this is what I want to say. Because you are born to think that you are right, think that everyone should speak English and think that you are on the side of justice.
Yes, I said it is a fact, and you should believe in what I believe. It is not difficult to explain why there are always many missionaries in the West, and even in the most glorious time in history, the East did not send a missionary to the West.
You can say all of those horrible things about westerners, and nobody will fire you from your job or take away things you've earned. You can peddle wild and offensive conspiracy theories that are refuted by literally hundreds of people who witnessed the events, moved away, and have been allowed to speak about their firsthand experiences, and suffer essentially no negative consequences at all. That's the difference between mainland China and the West. That's the whole point of why people in HK are upset.
Are you serious? I won’t lose my job in the U.S if I speak out for supporting racism or sexual discrimination? But you will not lose your job in China if you say so. Each country has its own “political right”, has its own “banned words”. Please don’t judge other people using your own standard.
Besides, as a hk citizen, I and many other hk people are upset about the current chaos caused by those riots, we hope their riots activities can be stopped. Also, their goal is the independence of hk and not the freedom, in fact no one is taking their freedom away.
Wow...just wow... And I thought the guy comparing the KKK with the chinese protests was bad...What you said is fucking terrible dude...
On October 09 2019 15:19 abuse wrote: You say mixing up sports and politics is frowned upon, yet, Blizzard is allowed to be as political as they want. Do you know that in the Overwatch league the Taiwanese team isn't called Taiwan but "Chinese Taipei" and the players are not allowed to even use their own country's flag because Blizzard doesn't want to kiss up to China to enter their market, and China thinks Taiwan is still their territory.
And south tirolean athletes are forced to compete under the italian flag, and there's the organizer's egalitarian ads in soccer matches and so on. Of course, sports are used for political agitation, but that doesn't make adding to it less bad.
First off, South Tyrol isn't a country(not recognized at least). Taiwan is. Second, you're just proving my point here. Organizations can do whatever the fuck they want, both in my case and .
First, Taiwan is not a country. United Nation does not recognize it. United States does not recognize it. Russia does not recognize it. United Kingdom, France, and all European Union countries do not recognize it. Most countries in the world do not recognize it. Even Taiwan's own "constitution", claim itself as part of China, under the name of "Republic of China". Technically, the mainland and the government in the island are still at full war state, and there is not even a cease fire. Second, Blizzard has its rules and will follow it. Anyone who compete an official competition also must accept it. If someone break the rules, whatever it is cheating or insulting other people, Blizzard has and will use its power. Not only Blizzard, most major sports organizations all have such rules. One example is FIFA, which bans all politics in any soccer event. 3. The riots and terrorists in Hong Kong do not seek freedom of speech. They seek freedom of making crimes and separation by force. They burn subway and banks, loot shops, block airport, and attack police, tourists and random people on street. If anyone want to support such actions, I assume that they are no difference with 9/11 attackers.
Totally agreed. I am in hong kong right now. TL community has no idea what is actually going on in hong kong and how ridiculous, radical, and violent those riots have became.
I have no idea and I don't care "how bad" protesters are acting in HK right now. All that matters is that China should GTFO of HKs democractic system and honor the deal they signed 1984, give HK their autonomy as promised.
That in itself would solve those violent riots without having to resort to violence. That is not to say I support protesters doing violent actions but the problem is not the protests, its China not upholding its honor and respecting the deal they themselves signed.
Hilarious. Do you have any evidence to show China is breaking the deal signed in 1984? Or all your info are all from your biased and partially reported western media? Autonomy is always there, CHINESE government will not intervene any hk issue as long as they are not separating hk from China. This is the only thing Chinese government ask, is it too much?
On October 10 2019 16:51 CraigWT wrote: As a CHINESE Hong Kong citizen and who now lives in Hong Kong, I can tell you guys that the riots are seeking for the only purpose, which is the independence of Hong Kong, and in fact just some of hk citizens are holding this point of view (maybe 1/3, most of them are young people). For achieving their wish, they are destroying hk metro system, burn and destroy CHINESE banks, CHINESE national flags, beating mainland Chinese people or hk people who support the police. The commercial activity, tourism industry is totally broken, many of middle class and rich people are selling their property and preparing for immigration. It is 100% riot instead of peaceful protest. So I assume anyone who support this kind of activity shall support terrorism.
And also, every country have its own “political right”, like in the U.S, racist is the redline, in China territory is the redline, especially for those clear area (Taiwan is another issue, but hk is undoubtedly a part of China) . Yelling “free hk” to Chinese is the same with yelling “niggers are xxx” to American people (just an example no mean for offence), so when a guy comes out and say free hk or similar thing, relevant company must make a decision: respect Chinese “political right” or not.
And last but not least, the hk issue is not like what most of western people know, “a peaceful protest for seeking freedom” (at least not for now, maybe for the very beginning), and people shall make public comment or opinion after collecting some information and trying to know the fact.
Well, the HK government had about half a year to withdraw this extradition bill. But they decided to just sit there and see it escalate, until it's turned into something else, so they can take next step and force the issue. I feel that they were expecting what's happening today. I don't agree with violence from either side, but I'd say that if the HK government really wants this to end in peace, first they should end the extradition bill as a starting point. And of course you'll say "it's useless now, the situation has completely changed blablabla..." but if you just assume that things won't work, you'll never do anything and of course nothing would work.
On October 10 2019 16:51 CraigWT wrote: As a CHINESE Hong Kong citizen and who now lives in Hong Kong, I can tell you guys that the riots are seeking for the only purpose, which is the independence of Hong Kong, and in fact just some of hk citizens are holding this point of view (maybe 1/3, most of them are young people). For achieving their wish, they are destroying hk metro system, burn and destroy CHINESE banks, CHINESE national flags, beating mainland Chinese people or hk people who support the police. The commercial activity, tourism industry is totally broken, many of middle class and rich people are selling their property and preparing for immigration. It is 100% riot instead of peaceful protest. So I assume anyone who support this kind of activity shall support terrorism.
And also, every country have its own “political right”, like in the U.S, racist is the redline, in China territory is the redline, especially for those clear area (Taiwan is another issue, but hk is undoubtedly a part of China) . Yelling “free hk” to Chinese is the same with yelling “niggers are xxx” to American people (just an example no mean for offence), so when a guy comes out and say free hk or similar thing, relevant company must make a decision: respect Chinese “political right” or not.
And last but not least, the hk issue is not like what most of western people know, “a peaceful protest for seeking freedom” (at least not for now, maybe for the very beginning), and people shall make public comment or opinion after collecting some information and trying to know the fact.
As a houston rockets fan since 2002, I finishd graduate school in US, work in Hong Kong, and play in GM league on CN ladder. Damn, I do not know what to feel now...
btw, my cn account: 40239511@qq.com us account: xxx30@case.edu wechat: 40239511
On October 10 2019 05:33 chuchuchu wrote: Even Wikipedia has debates about whether there is a massacre in Tiananmen (1989).
There are no debates on Wikipedia about whether the massacre happened. People are allowed to debate on the wiki debate page, and on there anyone and whomever can say whatever the heck they please. That never makes it onto the actual article itself, which requires sources for everything you post.
And there are plenty of sources for Tiananmen square. There's fucking photos of it! And they have existed since before Photoshop was a thing.
Are you questioning my ability to use the network?
However, it seems that it is hard to say clearly with Westerners and whites. After all, it is a country that relies on the slave trade and the ethnic groups of Africa and the Americas are extinct.
I would like to know that Americans are afraid when they are lying on the land where Indians and blacks are buried.
So far you have compared the Hong Kong protesters with the KKK, I think you called me stupid, it's hard to know for sure with your English, you are denying the tiananmen square massacre happened and now you start to get racist about "whites". I wonder where you'll go next!
Westerners still believe that they are on the side of democracy and freedom. Instead of standing in the US-China trade war and the Sino-US dispute, it stands on the side of the United States. Hong Kong and the NBA are just a continuation of this struggle. You are like a high school student. Disappointed
Is the fact of the statement racial discrimination? very funny. Just like you won't praise me for accepting the Cultural Revolution. Is it freedom of speech? When things are reversed, when a Chinese person in turn accuses the West of being racist, it is brainwashed and persecuted. I am only suspecting the tears of the crocodile. Because Western society is the beneficiary of the collapse of Chinese society.
If I am racist, I will not mention that I love nasa and love Kennedy. As you are ridiculous about my remarks, I also treat your remarks like this.
You call me the AI of high school students. Indeed, because my native language is Chinese, using Google Translate allows me to express a lot of things faster. I at least think that my English is better than your Chinese.
Of course you won't care, but still laugh at my English. Emm, this is what I want to say. Because you are born to think that you are right, think that everyone should speak English and think that you are on the side of justice.
Yes, I said it is a fact, and you should believe in what I believe. It is not difficult to explain why there are always many missionaries in the West, and even in the most glorious time in history, the East did not send a missionary to the West.
You can say all of those horrible things about westerners, and nobody will fire you from your job or take away things you've earned. You can peddle wild and offensive conspiracy theories that are refuted by literally hundreds of people who witnessed the events, moved away, and have been allowed to speak about their firsthand experiences, and suffer essentially no negative consequences at all. That's the difference between mainland China and the West. That's the whole point of why people in HK are upset.
Are you serious? I won’t lose my job in the U.S if I speak out for supporting racism or sexual discrimination? But you will not lose your job in China if you say so. Each country has its own “political right”, has its own “banned words”. Please don’t judge other people using your own standard.
Besides, as a hk citizen, I and many other hk people are upset about the current chaos caused by those riots, we hope their riots activities can be stopped. Also, their goal is the independence of hk and not the freedom, in fact no one is taking their freedom away.
Wow...just wow... And I thought the guy comparing the KKK with the chinese protests was bad...What you said is fucking terrible dude...
Do you really know what those riots are doing? They are basically terrorists now, if you think racism is a bad comparison, terrorism will be a good and appropriate one. And you totally don’t understand What I want to say. In your country, everyone cares about racism, in China (in fact not just China, in the entire East Asia) although we don’t support racism, but we don’t care that much, and people normally won’t get serious punished if they say something racist. But in East Asia, we are sensitive about the territory completeness, so we are sensitive about the independence, especially when they want to get the independence by simply destroying the city.
On October 10 2019 16:51 CraigWT wrote: As a CHINESE Hong Kong citizen and who now lives in Hong Kong, I can tell you guys that the riots are seeking for the only purpose, which is the independence of Hong Kong, and in fact just some of hk citizens are holding this point of view (maybe 1/3, most of them are young people). For achieving their wish, they are destroying hk metro system, burn and destroy CHINESE banks, CHINESE national flags, beating mainland Chinese people or hk people who support the police. The commercial activity, tourism industry is totally broken, many of middle class and rich people are selling their property and preparing for immigration. It is 100% riot instead of peaceful protest. So I assume anyone who support this kind of activity shall support terrorism.
And also, every country have its own “political right”, like in the U.S, racist is the redline, in China territory is the redline, especially for those clear area (Taiwan is another issue, but hk is undoubtedly a part of China) . Yelling “free hk” to Chinese is the same with yelling “niggers are xxx” to American people (just an example no mean for offence), so when a guy comes out and say free hk or similar thing, relevant company must make a decision: respect Chinese “political right” or not.
And last but not least, the hk issue is not like what most of western people know, “a peaceful protest for seeking freedom” (at least not for now, maybe for the very beginning), and people shall make public comment or opinion after collecting some information and trying to know the fact.
As a houston rockets fan since 2002, I finishd graduate school in US, work in Hong Kong, and play in GM league on CN ladder. Damn, I do not know what to feel now...
btw, my cn account: 40239511@qq.com us account: xxx30@case.edu wechat: 40239511
I don’t know what you mean? Agree or disagree about my message?
On October 10 2019 16:51 CraigWT wrote: As a CHINESE Hong Kong citizen and who now lives in Hong Kong, I can tell you guys that the riots are seeking for the only purpose, which is the independence of Hong Kong, and in fact just some of hk citizens are holding this point of view (maybe 1/3, most of them are young people). For achieving their wish, they are destroying hk metro system, burn and destroy CHINESE banks, CHINESE national flags, beating mainland Chinese people or hk people who support the police. The commercial activity, tourism industry is totally broken, many of middle class and rich people are selling their property and preparing for immigration. It is 100% riot instead of peaceful protest. So I assume anyone who support this kind of activity shall support terrorism.
And also, every country have its own “political right”, like in the U.S, racist is the redline, in China territory is the redline, especially for those clear area (Taiwan is another issue, but hk is undoubtedly a part of China) . Yelling “free hk” to Chinese is the same with yelling “niggers are xxx” to American people (just an example no mean for offence), so when a guy comes out and say free hk or similar thing, relevant company must make a decision: respect Chinese “political right” or not.
And last but not least, the hk issue is not like what most of western people know, “a peaceful protest for seeking freedom” (at least not for now, maybe for the very beginning), and people shall make public comment or opinion after collecting some information and trying to know the fact.
Well, the HK government had about half a year to withdraw this extradition bill. But they decided to just sit there and see it escalate, until it's turned into something else, so they can take next step and force the issue. I feel that they were expecting what's happening today. I don't agree with violence from either side, but I'd say that if the HK government really wants this to end in peace, first they should end the extradition bill as a starting point. And of course you'll say "it's useless now, the situation has completely changed blablabla..." but if you just assume that things won't work, you'll never do anything and of course nothing would work.
Don’t you know the government have already done lots of amendments on the law to compromise? And do you know the initial reason for drafting the extradition bill? If you don’t I can tell you, it is because 2 years ago, a hk guy murdered another hk lady in Taiwan and fly back to hk, because no extradition bill between these two places, the guy is still get no punishment, and also many Chinese criminals are now living in hk and get no punishment.
Now it is the riots are forcing the government to 100% listen to them and they don’t accept any compromise. (please know the fact not the majority of hk people are supporting the riots)
Hong Kong has always agreed on "One Country, Two Systems". It's beijing that contradicts the "two systems" part, and *surprised pikachu* Hong Kong citizens are having a hard time to trust beijing now.
China had promised to not interfere with hong Kong for 50 years, but has been steadily interfering, to the point that Hong Kong commissioners must be approved by China. When China already disappears booksellers in Hong Kong, the extradition bill nowmakes it legal for them to disappear anybody in Hong Kong as they like.
Taiwan is not China. Taiwan is its own separate country, whose people do not want to join up with the People's Republic of Chinaa. What does an extradition bill between Hong Kong and Taiwan have to do with Hong Kong and China?
Taiwan has it's own seperate government and legal system. Taiwan's extradition bill is for Taiwan to negotiate, and it has to negotiate with China, as Hong Kong's foreign policy is entirely handed over to China. So, maybe stop drinking China state media information.
On October 10 2019 16:51 CraigWT wrote: ... And also, every country have its own “political right”, like in the U.S, racist is the redline, in China territory is the redline, especially for those clear area (Taiwan is another issue, but hk is undoubtedly a part of China) . Yelling “free hk” to Chinese is the same with yelling “niggers are xxx” to American people (just an example no mean for offence), so when a guy comes out and say free hk or similar thing, relevant company must make a decision: respect Chinese “political right” or not. ....
Let me state it this way:
We have overcome the thinking that a human being is inferior because of his skin color. We have overcome the thinking that it would be okay to enslave people. And at least most people are even agreeing on racial slurs are bad, because they represent the things we already have overcome.
If your government tells you, it's equally offensive to honor contracts, made by a former party chairman compared to use racial slurs becaus you feel hate towards people you probably never talked to .. you are having a shitty government that tells you lies.
Hong Kong was promised "One Country, two Systems". Ever since Chinese government has decided to weaken this agreement, the protests began.
Who are doing this? Does Chinese people are hating the world? Or the western freedom fighters are hating Chinese, thought they never been to China, have no Chinese friend? And again, do you have any evidence showing that the country is destroying one country two system? And why you people have such confidence that you think you know way more about hk than a hk citizen? As a hk citizen, I don’t support their behaviour, and you know barely nothing about the current situation and just judge I am wrong, what a freedom
Who said anything about hating China? Whataboutism. Stop making things up. Just like the other chinese bot, you write the same things deflecting arguments. China destroyed one country two system even before they decided to abduct booksellers in Hong Kong. Your government is so afraid of people who sell books, they abduct them from Hong Kong.
Now it is the riots are forcing the government to 100% listen to them and they don’t accept any compromise. (please know the fact not the majority of hk people are supporting the riots)
.....
The new law would allow to bring any prisoner to mainland china. And because the chinese have no politically independent justice system, anyone can become a prisoner even without commiting a crime. That is a direct threat to freedom of HK citizens. That's what they fear. That's why they give up their normal lifes and join protests.
Or do you honestly believe that people risk their jobs, their freedom, their health an even their life, because they think that criminals should go free among them ?
If you step back a little - what's the more plausible story here ?
On October 10 2019 16:51 CraigWT wrote: As a CHINESE Hong Kong citizen and who now lives in Hong Kong, I can tell you guys that the riots are seeking for the only purpose, which is the independence of Hong Kong, and in fact just some of hk citizens are holding this point of view (maybe 1/3, most of them are young people). For achieving their wish, they are destroying hk metro system, burn and destroy CHINESE banks, CHINESE national flags, beating mainland Chinese people or hk people who support the police. The commercial activity, tourism industry is totally broken, many of middle class and rich people are selling their property and preparing for immigration. It is 100% riot instead of peaceful protest. So I assume anyone who support this kind of activity shall support terrorism.
And also, every country have its own “political right”, like in the U.S, racist is the redline, in China territory is the redline, especially for those clear area (Taiwan is another issue, but hk is undoubtedly a part of China) . Yelling “free hk” to Chinese is the same with yelling “niggers are xxx” to American people (just an example no mean for offence), so when a guy comes out and say free hk or similar thing, relevant company must make a decision: respect Chinese “political right” or not.
And last but not least, the hk issue is not like what most of western people know, “a peaceful protest for seeking freedom” (at least not for now, maybe for the very beginning), and people shall make public comment or opinion after collecting some information and trying to know the fact.
Well, the HK government had about half a year to withdraw this extradition bill. But they decided to just sit there and see it escalate, until it's turned into something else, so they can take next step and force the issue. I feel that they were expecting what's happening today. I don't agree with violence from either side, but I'd say that if the HK government really wants this to end in peace, first they should end the extradition bill as a starting point. And of course you'll say "it's useless now, the situation has completely changed blablabla..." but if you just assume that things won't work, you'll never do anything and of course nothing would work.
Don’t you know the government have already done lots of amendments on the law to compromise? And do you know the initial reason for drafting the extradition bill? If you don’t I can tell you, it is because 2 years ago, a hk guy murdered another hk lady in Taiwan and fly back to hk, because no extradition bill between these two places, the guy is still get no punishment, and also many Chinese criminals are now living in hk and get no punishment.
Now it is the riots are forcing the government to 100% listen to them and they don’t accept any compromise. (please know the fact not the majority of hk people are supporting the riots)
Yeah of course, when the extradition bill was proposed, Taiwan government clearly claimed that even if the bill passes, they would not agree on extraditing the criminal at the cost of sacrificing the freedom in HongKong. So if the murder is the cause, there's no reason to move on and everything can go back to normal. The fact that HongKong government still wants to force it out tells that it's not that simple.
China had promised to not interfere with hong Kong for 50 years, but has been steadily interfering, to the point that Hong Kong commissioners must be approved by China. When China already disappears booksellers in Hong Kong, the extradition bill nowmakes it legal for them to disappear anybody in Hong Kong as they like.
Taiwan is not China. Taiwan is its own separate country, whose people do not want to join up with the People's Republic of Chinaa. What does an extradition bill between Hong Kong and Taiwan have to do with Hong Kong and China?
Taiwan has it's own seperate government and legal system. Taiwan's extradition bill is for Taiwan to negotiate, and it has to negotiate with China, as Hong Kong's foreign policy is entirely handed over to China. So, maybe stop drinking China state media information.
Just talking about the joint declaration, also using the your quote from wiki, China promise not to practise socialism to hk and hk stay capitalism for 50 years, and both China and UK agreed on the “the basic law”, and the first article in the basic law is “HKSAR is a part of China”. Chinese government will permit any commissioner candidate if such candidates support the Basic Law.
Also hk is a special region of China, it has no foreign policy right and military right, does Scotland has its own military or foreign policy? I don’t believe your UK will give them such right
Scotland is not a Special Administrative Region of UK. Scotland is fully part of UK. Scotland chose to join with England 300 years ago, as 2 acts of Parliament passed by the Parliament of England and the Parliament of Scotland.Scotland has even greater rights than England, having representation in national Parliament in the House of Commons and in its own Scottish Parliament and many seperate legislation. The Scottish Parliament is also free to seek separation from the UK.
Scottish MP do not disappear over the border to unknown places in England, unless you count disappearing in the pub in the House of Commons, though many prefer the new expensively funded Scottish Parliament to the run down Palace of Westminster. Guess what China and HK does not have. A parliament.
Just recently a court of Scotland essentially countered the Prime Minister and is now ruling over whether to send a letter requesting a Brexit extension in stead of the PM. Imagine a Hong Kong court being able to overule Xi Jinping. But rule of law doesn't exist in China.
It doesn't have foreign and military right, it is has full foreign and military rights as part of UK with representation in part of government. It is a curious fact that Scottish MP's are overpresented in government. Gordon Brown who was Prime Minister a few years ago was for instance was Scottish. Imagine elections in Hong Kong leading to a Hong Kong president of China!
In fact many army bases are in Scotland, actively recruiting there for historical reasons and the nuclear submarine bases are in Scotland, so Scotland have an over represented military sector. Scotland celebrates its military heritage as part of UK. They keep their bagpipes and their ceremonial kit, celebrating their distinctive differences with the rest of the UK. Would China even entertain Hong Kong regiments with their own insignia and flags and cultural musical instruments? To let them parade proudly in distinctively different colours and hats and bagpipes?
Would Hong Kong celebrate its nonexistent military heritage with China, when China is producing videos of military vehicles moving to the borders of Hong Kong? Does Hong Kong have an army? Are people in Hong Kong even trusted to be recruited into the military, to crew their nuclear submarines?
You should try learning a bit more about the UK instead of making dumb comparisons.
The extradition bill is just a catalyst, the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak. People in HK generally prefer not to get involved in politics but there has been a lot of built up frustration at the HK government over the years, not only at their incompetence but also the way the officials suck up to Beijing by introducing policies that slowly take away their freedom. Many just want to get on with their lives and dont' really care about independence, as long as China doesn't encroach on their current rights. They want a government where there's some sense of accountability, and tired of seeing it run by idiots.
In fact Scotland plans to again hold a referendum on their independence from Britain and direct plans to re-join the EU in the event of brexit + independence
On October 10 2019 16:51 CraigWT wrote: As a CHINESE Hong Kong citizen and who now lives in Hong Kong, I can tell you guys that the riots are seeking for the only purpose, which is the independence of Hong Kong, and in fact just some of hk citizens are holding this point of view (maybe 1/3, most of them are young people). For achieving their wish, they are destroying hk metro system, burn and destroy CHINESE banks, CHINESE national flags, beating mainland Chinese people or hk people who support the police. The commercial activity, tourism industry is totally broken, many of middle class and rich people are selling their property and preparing for immigration. It is 100% riot instead of peaceful protest. So I assume anyone who support this kind of activity shall support terrorism.
And also, every country have its own “political right”, like in the U.S, racist is the redline, in China territory is the redline, especially for those clear area (Taiwan is another issue, but hk is undoubtedly a part of China) . Yelling “free hk” to Chinese is the same with yelling “niggers are xxx” to American people (just an example no mean for offence), so when a guy comes out and say free hk or similar thing, relevant company must make a decision: respect Chinese “political right” or not.
And last but not least, the hk issue is not like what most of western people know, “a peaceful protest for seeking freedom” (at least not for now, maybe for the very beginning), and people shall make public comment or opinion after collecting some information and trying to know the fact.
Well, the HK government had about half a year to withdraw this extradition bill. But they decided to just sit there and see it escalate, until it's turned into something else, so they can take next step and force the issue. I feel that they were expecting what's happening today. I don't agree with violence from either side, but I'd say that if the HK government really wants this to end in peace, first they should end the extradition bill as a starting point. And of course you'll say "it's useless now, the situation has completely changed blablabla..." but if you just assume that things won't work, you'll never do anything and of course nothing would work.
Don’t you know the government have already done lots of amendments on the law to compromise? And do you know the initial reason for drafting the extradition bill? If you don’t I can tell you, it is because 2 years ago, a hk guy murdered another hk lady in Taiwan and fly back to hk, because no extradition bill between these two places, the guy is still get no punishment, and also many Chinese criminals are now living in hk and get no punishment.
Now it is the riots are forcing the government to 100% listen to them and they don’t accept any compromise. (please know the fact not the majority of hk people are supporting the riots)
Yeah of course, when the extradition bill was proposed, Taiwan government clearly claimed that even if the bill passes, they would not agree on extraditing the criminal at the cost of sacrificing the freedom in HongKong. So if the murder is the cause, there's no reason to move on and everything can go back to normal. The fact that HongKong government still wants to force it out tells that it's not that simple.
Taiwan? Since Taiwan government now have really bad relationship with PRC, they will support anything that against PRC. And please try to know the entire storyline and their so called “5 appeal and no one less” and the response from the commissioner, besides the extradition, they ask the police release all arrested riots and punish the people who have the fight with them, and force the commissioner to resign. is it the freedom you support? They can do whatever they want and get no punishment and people against them shall get arrested? If the government agree all of their appeal, then what would you think the hk will be? When you feel unhappy about the government, you just walk into the street, fight against the police, burning shops and banks, and ask the government must listen to you?
Obviously this thread is no longer related to Blizzard banning HearthStone GM or Esports in gneral. Someone please move this thread to where it belongs with other politics threads.
On October 10 2019 18:06 KT_Elwood wrote: In fact Scotland plans to again hold a referendum on their independence from Britain and direct plans to re-join the EU in the event of brexit + independence
Also yes, they have a foreign policy and in fact an army (even though it's part of the british army)
Do you suggest a referendum on Hong Kong independence of China ? Since you say that protesters are a minority, what could go wrong ?
It’s a complicated issue. in fact, Chinese government is not afraid to let hk people choose independence or not (I can tell you hk will be 100% stay in hk by vote), but if they allow hk to do this, They cannot declare Taiwan is a part of China any more (for sure majority of Taiwanese think they are independent) . And maybe further Muslim issue etc. It is not just about hk, and I don’t want to comment too much about PRC policy to Taiwan
What does extradition to Taiwan got to do with China? China has no extradition laws with Taiwan in the first place. China wants extradition with Hong Kong so no one notices when they abduct people. If China an extradite people from Hong Kong, they certainly wouldn't be doing so at the bequest of Taiwan.
On October 10 2019 18:23 CraigWT wrote: (for sure majority of Taiwanese think they are independent)
They don't think they are independent. They are independent. Something people of Hong Kong are not.
On October 10 2019 18:06 KT_Elwood wrote: In fact Scotland plans to again hold a referendum on their independence from Britain and direct plans to re-join the EU in the event of brexit + independence
Also yes, they have a foreign policy and in fact an army (even though it's part of the british army)
Do you suggest a referendum on Hong Kong independence of China ? Since you say that protesters are a minority, what could go wrong ?
And what I said before is very common in global politics. Like Spain politicians never jump out and say we support hk to be independent since if they say so, how could they deal with the Catalonia issue
On October 10 2019 16:51 CraigWT wrote: As a CHINESE Hong Kong citizen and who now lives in Hong Kong, I can tell you guys that the riots are seeking for the only purpose, which is the independence of Hong Kong, and in fact just some of hk citizens are holding this point of view (maybe 1/3, most of them are young people). For achieving their wish, they are destroying hk metro system, burn and destroy CHINESE banks, CHINESE national flags, beating mainland Chinese people or hk people who support the police. The commercial activity, tourism industry is totally broken, many of middle class and rich people are selling their property and preparing for immigration. It is 100% riot instead of peaceful protest. So I assume anyone who support this kind of activity shall support terrorism.
And also, every country have its own “political right”, like in the U.S, racist is the redline, in China territory is the redline, especially for those clear area (Taiwan is another issue, but hk is undoubtedly a part of China) . Yelling “free hk” to Chinese is the same with yelling “niggers are xxx” to American people (just an example no mean for offence), so when a guy comes out and say free hk or similar thing, relevant company must make a decision: respect Chinese “political right” or not.
And last but not least, the hk issue is not like what most of western people know, “a peaceful protest for seeking freedom” (at least not for now, maybe for the very beginning), and people shall make public comment or opinion after collecting some information and trying to know the fact.
Well, the HK government had about half a year to withdraw this extradition bill. But they decided to just sit there and see it escalate, until it's turned into something else, so they can take next step and force the issue. I feel that they were expecting what's happening today. I don't agree with violence from either side, but I'd say that if the HK government really wants this to end in peace, first they should end the extradition bill as a starting point. And of course you'll say "it's useless now, the situation has completely changed blablabla..." but if you just assume that things won't work, you'll never do anything and of course nothing would work.
Don’t you know the government have already done lots of amendments on the law to compromise? And do you know the initial reason for drafting the extradition bill? If you don’t I can tell you, it is because 2 years ago, a hk guy murdered another hk lady in Taiwan and fly back to hk, because no extradition bill between these two places, the guy is still get no punishment, and also many Chinese criminals are now living in hk and get no punishment.
Now it is the riots are forcing the government to 100% listen to them and they don’t accept any compromise. (please know the fact not the majority of hk people are supporting the riots)
Yeah of course, when the extradition bill was proposed, Taiwan government clearly claimed that even if the bill passes, they would not agree on extraditing the criminal at the cost of sacrificing the freedom in HongKong. So if the murder is the cause, there's no reason to move on and everything can go back to normal. The fact that HongKong government still wants to force it out tells that it's not that simple.
Taiwan? Since Taiwan government now have really bad relationship with PRC, they will support anything that against PRC. And please try to know the entire storyline and their so called “5 appeal and no one less” and the response from the commissioner, besides the extradition, they ask the police release all arrested riots and punish the people who have the fight with them, and force the commissioner to resign. is it the freedom you support? They can do whatever they want and get no punishment and people against them shall get arrested? If the government agree all of their appeal, then what would you think the hk will be? When you feel unhappy about the government, you just walk into the street, fight against the police, burning shops and banks, and ask the government must listen to you?
“Since Taiwan government now have really bad relationship with PRC, they will support anything that against PRC.” Well yeah now western government really have bad relationship with PRC, too, so people should support anything that's against PRC. What's the point? Why is so hard to admit that withdrawing (not amending) the extradition bill could have alleviated the situation and maybe even stopped it in the beginning? About the rest of the post, we were talking about "what started this protest and what could have been done to end it early" and you are again talking about "we can't do it now it's too late", which is totally irrelevant.
In my view this discussion should be a lot more about the company that disproportionally punishes an esports player of one of their games just for (future) financial prospects than about the country where these prospects lie.
On October 10 2019 18:26 Dangermousecatdog wrote: What does extradition to Taiwan got to do with China? China has no extradition laws with Taiwan in the first place. China wants extradition with Hong Kong so no one notices when they abduct people. If China an extradite people from Hong Kong, they certainly wouldn't be doing so at the bequest of Taiwan.
On October 10 2019 18:23 CraigWT wrote: (for sure majority of Taiwanese think they are independent)
They don't think they are independent. They are independent. Something people of Hong Kong are not.
Taiwan in fact is independent governed, but barely no country admit they are a independent nation. if PRC admit the result of their vote, then Taiwan can be legally independent and admitted by the entire world. So PRC will not allow this to happen (I don’t want to talk about the justice, just talk the fact) and prc will not admit any similar votes, whatever the result is.
On October 10 2019 16:51 CraigWT wrote: As a CHINESE Hong Kong citizen and who now lives in Hong Kong, I can tell you guys that the riots are seeking for the only purpose, which is the independence of Hong Kong, and in fact just some of hk citizens are holding this point of view (maybe 1/3, most of them are young people). For achieving their wish, they are destroying hk metro system, burn and destroy CHINESE banks, CHINESE national flags, beating mainland Chinese people or hk people who support the police. The commercial activity, tourism industry is totally broken, many of middle class and rich people are selling their property and preparing for immigration. It is 100% riot instead of peaceful protest. So I assume anyone who support this kind of activity shall support terrorism.
And also, every country have its own “political right”, like in the U.S, racist is the redline, in China territory is the redline, especially for those clear area (Taiwan is another issue, but hk is undoubtedly a part of China) . Yelling “free hk” to Chinese is the same with yelling “niggers are xxx” to American people (just an example no mean for offence), so when a guy comes out and say free hk or similar thing, relevant company must make a decision: respect Chinese “political right” or not.
And last but not least, the hk issue is not like what most of western people know, “a peaceful protest for seeking freedom” (at least not for now, maybe for the very beginning), and people shall make public comment or opinion after collecting some information and trying to know the fact.
Well, the HK government had about half a year to withdraw this extradition bill. But they decided to just sit there and see it escalate, until it's turned into something else, so they can take next step and force the issue. I feel that they were expecting what's happening today. I don't agree with violence from either side, but I'd say that if the HK government really wants this to end in peace, first they should end the extradition bill as a starting point. And of course you'll say "it's useless now, the situation has completely changed blablabla..." but if you just assume that things won't work, you'll never do anything and of course nothing would work.
Don’t you know the government have already done lots of amendments on the law to compromise? And do you know the initial reason for drafting the extradition bill? If you don’t I can tell you, it is because 2 years ago, a hk guy murdered another hk lady in Taiwan and fly back to hk, because no extradition bill between these two places, the guy is still get no punishment, and also many Chinese criminals are now living in hk and get no punishment.
Now it is the riots are forcing the government to 100% listen to them and they don’t accept any compromise. (please know the fact not the majority of hk people are supporting the riots)
Yeah of course, when the extradition bill was proposed, Taiwan government clearly claimed that even if the bill passes, they would not agree on extraditing the criminal at the cost of sacrificing the freedom in HongKong. So if the murder is the cause, there's no reason to move on and everything can go back to normal. The fact that HongKong government still wants to force it out tells that it's not that simple.
Taiwan? Since Taiwan government now have really bad relationship with PRC, they will support anything that against PRC. And please try to know the entire storyline and their so called “5 appeal and no one less” and the response from the commissioner, besides the extradition, they ask the police release all arrested riots and punish the people who have the fight with them, and force the commissioner to resign. is it the freedom you support? They can do whatever they want and get no punishment and people against them shall get arrested? If the government agree all of their appeal, then what would you think the hk will be? When you feel unhappy about the government, you just walk into the street, fight against the police, burning shops and banks, and ask the government must listen to you?
“Since Taiwan government now have really bad relationship with PRC, they will support anything that against PRC.” Well yeah now western government really have bad relationship with PRC, too, so people should support anything that's against PRC. What's the point? Why is so hard to admit that withdrawing (not amending) the extradition bill could have alleviated the situation and maybe even stopped it in the beginning? About the rest of the post, we were talking about "what started this protest and what could have been done to end it early" and you are again talking about "we can't do it now it's too late", which is totally irrelevant.
At very beginning, after the first march, government already compromised and do the amendment, but riots think that is not enough. So all hk people shall just listen to riots because they are dare to do the violence? Why you so believe that these riots stand for the majority of our hk people? Why you think our hk people support their appeal? Have you ever been to hk or recently visit hk? Why you think you know much more than our hk people ourselves about our will?
Must be news to the people living there, with their own government, their own laws, their own military that they aren't independent. That PRC does not recognise China, does not make Taiwan stop existing. But it doesn't matter in any case as your positon is that the people of Hong Kong should just roll over and accept that the People's Republic of China does not adhere to agreements.
And yes, for your information I have been to HK recently and have visited it many times in the past.
On October 10 2019 18:05 ilikeredheads wrote: The extradition bill is just a catalyst, the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak. People in HK generally prefer not to get involved in politics but there has been a lot of built up frustration at the HK government over the years, not only at their incompetence but also the way the officials suck up to Beijing by introducing policies that slowly take away their freedom. Many just want to get on with their lives and dont' really care about independence, as long as China doesn't encroach on their current rights. They want a government where there's some sense of accountability, and tired of seeing it run by idiots.
Another brainwashed guy. The real problem of hk is the living quality of ordinary people getting worse and worse and young people feel hopeless about their future, and they are blaming this situation to hk government and PRC. HK have no freedom before 1984 and have no democracy before 1997. Now they have both. of course you can question about democracy, but for freedom, come to hk, you will feel way more “freedom” than in your country, you are free to burning the public area in hk, you are free to beat hk police, are you free to do this in your country?
Just because the chinese are well organized, have the strength of their convictions so strongly that they strong arm whoever disagrees with them, well that doesn't mean people should fold.
I was going to buy the warchest before the Blizzcon but now I won't and I really have to review the fact that I only bought Blizzard games so far. I can do better and I will try !
On October 10 2019 18:51 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Must be news to the people living there, with their own government, their own laws, their own military that they aren't independent. That PRC does not recognise China, does not make Taiwan stop existing. But it doesn't matter in any case as your positon is that the people of Hong Kong should just roll over and accept that the People's Republic of China does not adhere to agreements.
And yes, for your information I have been to HK recently and have visited it many times in the past.
Have you ever seen what they are doing? Hopefully you are honest about statement that you came to hk recently, the real hk is we cannot go out our living area during the weekend because of them and we barely cannot find a opening restaurant during the last weekend. They are ruining the city and most of us don’t support them. Also please visit some hk local online forums to read what we think (u can use google translate). These riots doesn’t represent hk.
For Taiwan issue, again, I have already admitted the fact that they are independent, but legally admitted and the fact are different, it’s about politics. Like many government US or UK don’t admit, they think it is an illegal government, so they can raise the war. And again, I don’t want to comment for Taiwan issue, PRC is right or wrong, I can only say it’s their policy. Like many global political issue, there is no absolute right or wrong.
On October 10 2019 16:51 CraigWT wrote: As a CHINESE Hong Kong citizen and who now lives in Hong Kong, I can tell you guys that the riots are seeking for the only purpose, which is the independence of Hong Kong, and in fact just some of hk citizens are holding this point of view (maybe 1/3, most of them are young people). For achieving their wish, they are destroying hk metro system, burn and destroy CHINESE banks, CHINESE national flags, beating mainland Chinese people or hk people who support the police. The commercial activity, tourism industry is totally broken, many of middle class and rich people are selling their property and preparing for immigration. It is 100% riot instead of peaceful protest. So I assume anyone who support this kind of activity shall support terrorism.
And also, every country have its own “political right”, like in the U.S, racist is the redline, in China territory is the redline, especially for those clear area (Taiwan is another issue, but hk is undoubtedly a part of China) . Yelling “free hk” to Chinese is the same with yelling “niggers are xxx” to American people (just an example no mean for offence), so when a guy comes out and say free hk or similar thing, relevant company must make a decision: respect Chinese “political right” or not.
And last but not least, the hk issue is not like what most of western people know, “a peaceful protest for seeking freedom” (at least not for now, maybe for the very beginning), and people shall make public comment or opinion after collecting some information and trying to know the fact.
Well, the HK government had about half a year to withdraw this extradition bill. But they decided to just sit there and see it escalate, until it's turned into something else, so they can take next step and force the issue. I feel that they were expecting what's happening today. I don't agree with violence from either side, but I'd say that if the HK government really wants this to end in peace, first they should end the extradition bill as a starting point. And of course you'll say "it's useless now, the situation has completely changed blablabla..." but if you just assume that things won't work, you'll never do anything and of course nothing would work.
Don’t you know the government have already done lots of amendments on the law to compromise? And do you know the initial reason for drafting the extradition bill? If you don’t I can tell you, it is because 2 years ago, a hk guy murdered another hk lady in Taiwan and fly back to hk, because no extradition bill between these two places, the guy is still get no punishment, and also many Chinese criminals are now living in hk and get no punishment.
Now it is the riots are forcing the government to 100% listen to them and they don’t accept any compromise. (please know the fact not the majority of hk people are supporting the riots)
Yeah of course, when the extradition bill was proposed, Taiwan government clearly claimed that even if the bill passes, they would not agree on extraditing the criminal at the cost of sacrificing the freedom in HongKong. So if the murder is the cause, there's no reason to move on and everything can go back to normal. The fact that HongKong government still wants to force it out tells that it's not that simple.
Taiwan? Since Taiwan government now have really bad relationship with PRC, they will support anything that against PRC. And please try to know the entire storyline and their so called “5 appeal and no one less” and the response from the commissioner, besides the extradition, they ask the police release all arrested riots and punish the people who have the fight with them, and force the commissioner to resign. is it the freedom you support? They can do whatever they want and get no punishment and people against them shall get arrested? If the government agree all of their appeal, then what would you think the hk will be? When you feel unhappy about the government, you just walk into the street, fight against the police, burning shops and banks, and ask the government must listen to you?
“Since Taiwan government now have really bad relationship with PRC, they will support anything that against PRC.” Well yeah now western government really have bad relationship with PRC, too, so people should support anything that's against PRC. What's the point? Why is so hard to admit that withdrawing (not amending) the extradition bill could have alleviated the situation and maybe even stopped it in the beginning? About the rest of the post, we were talking about "what started this protest and what could have been done to end it early" and you are again talking about "we can't do it now it's too late", which is totally irrelevant.
At very beginning, after the first march, government already compromised and do the amendment, but riots think that is not enough. So all hk people shall just listen to riots because they are dare to do the violence? Why you so believe that these riots stand for the majority of our hk people? Why you think our hk people support their appeal? Have you ever been to hk or recently visit hk? Why you think you know much more than our hk people ourselves about our will?
My question:"withdrawing (not amending) the extradition bill could have alleviated the situation and maybe even stopped it in the beginning" Your answer:"government already compromised and do the amendment, but riots think that is not enough" Which is totally the opposite to my question. They didn't withdraw the bill and that's why it escalated.
On October 10 2019 16:51 CraigWT wrote: As a CHINESE Hong Kong citizen and who now lives in Hong Kong, I can tell you guys that the riots are seeking for the only purpose, which is the independence of Hong Kong, and in fact just some of hk citizens are holding this point of view (maybe 1/3, most of them are young people). For achieving their wish, they are destroying hk metro system, burn and destroy CHINESE banks, CHINESE national flags, beating mainland Chinese people or hk people who support the police. The commercial activity, tourism industry is totally broken, many of middle class and rich people are selling their property and preparing for immigration. It is 100% riot instead of peaceful protest. So I assume anyone who support this kind of activity shall support terrorism.
And also, every country have its own “political right”, like in the U.S, racist is the redline, in China territory is the redline, especially for those clear area (Taiwan is another issue, but hk is undoubtedly a part of China) . Yelling “free hk” to Chinese is the same with yelling “niggers are xxx” to American people (just an example no mean for offence), so when a guy comes out and say free hk or similar thing, relevant company must make a decision: respect Chinese “political right” or not.
And last but not least, the hk issue is not like what most of western people know, “a peaceful protest for seeking freedom” (at least not for now, maybe for the very beginning), and people shall make public comment or opinion after collecting some information and trying to know the fact.
Well, the HK government had about half a year to withdraw this extradition bill. But they decided to just sit there and see it escalate, until it's turned into something else, so they can take next step and force the issue. I feel that they were expecting what's happening today. I don't agree with violence from either side, but I'd say that if the HK government really wants this to end in peace, first they should end the extradition bill as a starting point. And of course you'll say "it's useless now, the situation has completely changed blablabla..." but if you just assume that things won't work, you'll never do anything and of course nothing would work.
Don’t you know the government have already done lots of amendments on the law to compromise? And do you know the initial reason for drafting the extradition bill? If you don’t I can tell you, it is because 2 years ago, a hk guy murdered another hk lady in Taiwan and fly back to hk, because no extradition bill between these two places, the guy is still get no punishment, and also many Chinese criminals are now living in hk and get no punishment.
Now it is the riots are forcing the government to 100% listen to them and they don’t accept any compromise. (please know the fact not the majority of hk people are supporting the riots)
Yeah of course, when the extradition bill was proposed, Taiwan government clearly claimed that even if the bill passes, they would not agree on extraditing the criminal at the cost of sacrificing the freedom in HongKong. So if the murder is the cause, there's no reason to move on and everything can go back to normal. The fact that HongKong government still wants to force it out tells that it's not that simple.
Taiwan? Since Taiwan government now have really bad relationship with PRC, they will support anything that against PRC. And please try to know the entire storyline and their so called “5 appeal and no one less” and the response from the commissioner, besides the extradition, they ask the police release all arrested riots and punish the people who have the fight with them, and force the commissioner to resign. is it the freedom you support? They can do whatever they want and get no punishment and people against them shall get arrested? If the government agree all of their appeal, then what would you think the hk will be? When you feel unhappy about the government, you just walk into the street, fight against the police, burning shops and banks, and ask the government must listen to you?
“Since Taiwan government now have really bad relationship with PRC, they will support anything that against PRC.” Well yeah now western government really have bad relationship with PRC, too, so people should support anything that's against PRC. What's the point? Why is so hard to admit that withdrawing (not amending) the extradition bill could have alleviated the situation and maybe even stopped it in the beginning? About the rest of the post, we were talking about "what started this protest and what could have been done to end it early" and you are again talking about "we can't do it now it's too late", which is totally irrelevant.
At very beginning, after the first march, government already compromised and do the amendment, but riots think that is not enough. So all hk people shall just listen to riots because they are dare to do the violence? Why you so believe that these riots stand for the majority of our hk people? Why you think our hk people support their appeal? Have you ever been to hk or recently visit hk? Why you think you know much more than our hk people ourselves about our will?
You can claim that you have been living in HK for whatever many years and how much better you know about the citizens than me, while never showing any evidence, so after all it's all opinions. Even if you are a reporter from HK, you are still just part of the media, which is telling your point of view. "Why you so believe that these riots stand for the majority of our hk people?" The thing is simple: let everyone vote on "Do you agree on withdrawing the extradition bill" and see the result. Otherwise it's just personal opinion for both of us.
On October 10 2019 16:25 deacon.frost wrote: If only all these people put all thsi effort to force their government to do something. But unfortunetally, we live in a time when people care more about Blizzard then their own politicians and what their own government does...
How do you know they aren't?
You might be surprised to hear this, but passionate gamers are not the only people living on this planet. There are plenty of overlap between gamers, and people who are passionate about politics. There are, however, also a lot of people out there who arent gamers and who's also not into politics.
Check out the TL US politics thread and you'll see plenty of people caring about politics there, and that's probably the most consistently busiest thread on all of TL.
Because it's the same as NRA vs anti-gun people?* How many changes have you seen? How many riots about the support of China vs HK have you seen? I didn't see any, I'm not saying they're not happening, all I'm saying is that I don't know about any. Yet there's e-outrage about Blizzard all over the western world. While the same western people don't care about their country support Saudi Arabia(e.g.). If there would be enough sustain outrage about such issues politicians would have to do something because otherwise they wouldn't be elected the next elections. But nothing's happening.
*Now to the NRA vs anti-gun people. Anti-gun people are always outraged and asking changes 2 or 3 weeks after some massacre. And then nothing. NRA is active the whole year. So visually it seems that there's more pro-gun people and they're more persistent. Again, I don't know how many anti-gun people there are as there's nothing as nonNRA(or I don't know it), but changes didn't happen, did they? Which means that it works.
TL, DR - to get changes you need to be persistent, ask politicians regularily, try to gather support from other people. Maybe it's my cynicism, but I believe majority of the outraged people don't care about their own politicians and their support of the unified China politic.
If living conditions for "ordinary young" people in Hong Kong are so bad, and china is so close and great and free, why won't they move there ? Why do the "ordinary poor young" chose to protest ? Why do Hearthstoneplayers throw away 10.000s of Dollars to make a statement ?
On October 10 2019 16:25 deacon.frost wrote: If only all these people put all thsi effort to force their government to do something. But unfortunetally, we live in a time when people care more about Blizzard then their own politicians and what their own government does...
How do you know they aren't?
You might be surprised to hear this, but passionate gamers are not the only people living on this planet. There are plenty of overlap between gamers, and people who are passionate about politics. There are, however, also a lot of people out there who arent gamers and who's also not into politics.
Check out the TL US politics thread and you'll see plenty of people caring about politics there, and that's probably the most consistently busiest thread on all of TL.
Because it's the same as NRA vs anti-gun people?* How many changes have you seen? How many riots about the support of China vs HK have you seen? I didn't see any, I'm not saying they're not happening, all I'm saying is that I don't know about any. Yet there's e-outrage about Blizzard all over the western world. While the same western people don't care about their country support Saudi Arabia(e.g.). If there would be enough sustain outrage about such issues politicians would have to do something because otherwise they wouldn't be elected the next elections. But nothing's happening.
*Now to the NRA vs anti-gun people. Anti-gun people are always outraged and asking changes 2 or 3 weeks after some massacre. And then nothing. NRA is active the whole year. So visually it seems that there's more pro-gun people and they're more persistent. Again, I don't know how many anti-gun people there are as there's nothing as nonNRA(or I don't know it), but changes didn't happen, did they? Which means that it works.
TL, DR - to get changes you need to be persistent, ask politicians regularily, try to gather support from other people. Maybe it's my cynicism, but I believe majority of the outraged people don't care about their own politicians and their support of the unified China politic.
I’d say it’s something that people latch on to because you can individually actually do something about it.
Point taken about the power of sustained advocacy, most people I know are just completely disillusioned and beaten down about the mechanisms of enacting change, and understandably so.
On October 10 2019 16:25 deacon.frost wrote: If only all these people put all thsi effort to force their government to do something. But unfortunetally, we live in a time when people care more about Blizzard then their own politicians and what their own government does...
How do you know they aren't?
You might be surprised to hear this, but passionate gamers are not the only people living on this planet. There are plenty of overlap between gamers, and people who are passionate about politics. There are, however, also a lot of people out there who arent gamers and who's also not into politics.
Check out the TL US politics thread and you'll see plenty of people caring about politics there, and that's probably the most consistently busiest thread on all of TL.
Because it's the same as NRA vs anti-gun people?* How many changes have you seen? How many riots about the support of China vs HK have you seen? I didn't see any, I'm not saying they're not happening, all I'm saying is that I don't know about any. Yet there's e-outrage about Blizzard all over the western world. While the same western people don't care about their country support Saudi Arabia(e.g.). If there would be enough sustain outrage about such issues politicians would have to do something because otherwise they wouldn't be elected the next elections. But nothing's happening.
*Now to the NRA vs anti-gun people. Anti-gun people are always outraged and asking changes 2 or 3 weeks after some massacre. And then nothing. NRA is active the whole year. So visually it seems that there's more pro-gun people and they're more persistent. Again, I don't know how many anti-gun people there are as there's nothing as nonNRA(or I don't know it), but changes didn't happen, did they? Which means that it works.
TL, DR - to get changes you need to be persistent, ask politicians regularily, try to gather support from other people. Maybe it's my cynicism, but I believe majority of the outraged people don't care about their own politicians and their support of the unified China politic.
I’d say it’s something that people latch on to because you can individually actually do something about it.
Point taken about the power of sustained advocacy, most people I know are just completely disillusioned and beaten down about the mechanisms of enacting change, and understandably so.
I feel for them, it's just that they're angry about a company without any real power. It's like being angry at the support person on the phone. While it helps you, personally, it won't change anything. (unless it's Valve where the support, at least the e-support, goes to everyone in the company, Gaben himself rarely included)
NRA has a single purpose, and many advocates. So everytime just a hint of gun control pops up, they blitz it. But neither NRA or taiwan are topics in this thread.
I like to know how I can deal with my favourite games are made by a spineless boot licking company that was totally awesome and likeable before greedy crab people took over.
On October 10 2019 19:42 KT_Elwood wrote: NRA has a single purpose, and many advocates. So everytime just a hint of gun control pops up, they blitz it. But neither NRA or taiwan are topics in this thread.
I like to know how I can deal with my favourite games are made by a spineless boot licking company that was totally awesome and likeable before greedy crab people took over.
That's why it was an example of the approach. NRA actively writes their members to support their cause by writing to politicians. And they do it regularily, not when somebody is actively trying to ban guns. That was the point.
So you suggest we form an organization that OVERWATCHes our beloved companies not to betray the values that formed the western societies the very ones they once helped to build their company and to sell us their goods and service?
On October 10 2019 16:25 deacon.frost wrote: If only all these people put all thsi effort to force their government to do something. But unfortunetally, we live in a time when people care more about Blizzard then their own politicians and what their own government does...
How do you know they aren't?
You might be surprised to hear this, but passionate gamers are not the only people living on this planet. There are plenty of overlap between gamers, and people who are passionate about politics. There are, however, also a lot of people out there who arent gamers and who's also not into politics.
Check out the TL US politics thread and you'll see plenty of people caring about politics there, and that's probably the most consistently busiest thread on all of TL.
Because it's the same as NRA vs anti-gun people?* How many changes have you seen? How many riots about the support of China vs HK have you seen? I didn't see any, I'm not saying they're not happening, all I'm saying is that I don't know about any. Yet there's e-outrage about Blizzard all over the western world. While the same western people don't care about their country support Saudi Arabia(e.g.). If there would be enough sustain outrage about such issues politicians would have to do something because otherwise they wouldn't be elected the next elections. But nothing's happening.
*Now to the NRA vs anti-gun people. Anti-gun people are always outraged and asking changes 2 or 3 weeks after some massacre. And then nothing. NRA is active the whole year. So visually it seems that there's more pro-gun people and they're more persistent. Again, I don't know how many anti-gun people there are as there's nothing as nonNRA(or I don't know it), but changes didn't happen, did they? Which means that it works.
TL, DR - to get changes you need to be persistent, ask politicians regularily, try to gather support from other people. Maybe it's my cynicism, but I believe majority of the outraged people don't care about their own politicians and their support of the unified China politic.
I’d say it’s something that people latch on to because you can individually actually do something about it.
Point taken about the power of sustained advocacy, most people I know are just completely disillusioned and beaten down about the mechanisms of enacting change, and understandably so.
I feel for them, it's just that they're angry about a company without any real power. It's like being angry at the support person on the phone. While it helps you, personally, it won't change anything. (unless it's Valve where the support, at least the e-support, goes to everyone in the company, Gaben himself rarely included)
They’re a pretty big company nonetheless, and one that is actively looking to expand into China.
If they get burned by their Western audience, then they may alter course, perhaps other companies don’t follow this lead and the Chinese are forced to accept they can’t just strongarm in this manner and moderate themselves.
Of course, the blowback may die down, as if so often does and little of consequence may happen.
One can cancel their orders of products and tell the company exactly why they have done so, there’s a pretty direct mechanism of simultaneously hitting their bottom line, while also being unambiguous as to why they’ve lost that sale.
This is going to hurt Blizzard and its deserved. It's a political move. It's a statement that money allways wins over morals by Blizzards Standards. I will not buy or use any Blizzard products until this is fixed. This aggression cannot stand, man.
On October 10 2019 19:23 KT_Elwood wrote: If living conditions for "ordinary young" people in Hong Kong are so bad, and china is so close and great and free, why won't they move there ? Why do the "ordinary poor young" chose to protest ? Why do Hearthstoneplayers throw away 10.000s of Dollars to make a statement ?
ChuChuChu and CraigWT, it does not ad up.
You can move to wherever you want? You have to find a job, find a place to live bring your family etc. In fact many hk people, especially middle class or above who have more options to choose, are looking for immigration opportunities, my boss a typical hkese, haven’t be back to hk for 2 months and stay in mainland China. You really think we are not doing this? Or you know is just some people come out and say something, and you think that is what we all think, so naive and childish. Again, I live in hk and is a hk permanent citizen, don’t think you know much more I do about the real hk situation.
On October 10 2019 16:51 CraigWT wrote: As a CHINESE Hong Kong citizen and who now lives in Hong Kong, I can tell you guys that the riots are seeking for the only purpose, which is the independence of Hong Kong, and in fact just some of hk citizens are holding this point of view (maybe 1/3, most of them are young people). For achieving their wish, they are destroying hk metro system, burn and destroy CHINESE banks, CHINESE national flags, beating mainland Chinese people or hk people who support the police. The commercial activity, tourism industry is totally broken, many of middle class and rich people are selling their property and preparing for immigration. It is 100% riot instead of peaceful protest. So I assume anyone who support this kind of activity shall support terrorism.
And also, every country have its own “political right”, like in the U.S, racist is the redline, in China territory is the redline, especially for those clear area (Taiwan is another issue, but hk is undoubtedly a part of China) . Yelling “free hk” to Chinese is the same with yelling “niggers are xxx” to American people (just an example no mean for offence), so when a guy comes out and say free hk or similar thing, relevant company must make a decision: respect Chinese “political right” or not.
And last but not least, the hk issue is not like what most of western people know, “a peaceful protest for seeking freedom” (at least not for now, maybe for the very beginning), and people shall make public comment or opinion after collecting some information and trying to know the fact.
Well, the HK government had about half a year to withdraw this extradition bill. But they decided to just sit there and see it escalate, until it's turned into something else, so they can take next step and force the issue. I feel that they were expecting what's happening today. I don't agree with violence from either side, but I'd say that if the HK government really wants this to end in peace, first they should end the extradition bill as a starting point. And of course you'll say "it's useless now, the situation has completely changed blablabla..." but if you just assume that things won't work, you'll never do anything and of course nothing would work.
Don’t you know the government have already done lots of amendments on the law to compromise? And do you know the initial reason for drafting the extradition bill? If you don’t I can tell you, it is because 2 years ago, a hk guy murdered another hk lady in Taiwan and fly back to hk, because no extradition bill between these two places, the guy is still get no punishment, and also many Chinese criminals are now living in hk and get no punishment.
Now it is the riots are forcing the government to 100% listen to them and they don’t accept any compromise. (please know the fact not the majority of hk people are supporting the riots)
Yeah of course, when the extradition bill was proposed, Taiwan government clearly claimed that even if the bill passes, they would not agree on extraditing the criminal at the cost of sacrificing the freedom in HongKong. So if the murder is the cause, there's no reason to move on and everything can go back to normal. The fact that HongKong government still wants to force it out tells that it's not that simple.
Taiwan? Since Taiwan government now have really bad relationship with PRC, they will support anything that against PRC. And please try to know the entire storyline and their so called “5 appeal and no one less” and the response from the commissioner, besides the extradition, they ask the police release all arrested riots and punish the people who have the fight with them, and force the commissioner to resign. is it the freedom you support? They can do whatever they want and get no punishment and people against them shall get arrested? If the government agree all of their appeal, then what would you think the hk will be? When you feel unhappy about the government, you just walk into the street, fight against the police, burning shops and banks, and ask the government must listen to you?
“Since Taiwan government now have really bad relationship with PRC, they will support anything that against PRC.” Well yeah now western government really have bad relationship with PRC, too, so people should support anything that's against PRC. What's the point? Why is so hard to admit that withdrawing (not amending) the extradition bill could have alleviated the situation and maybe even stopped it in the beginning? About the rest of the post, we were talking about "what started this protest and what could have been done to end it early" and you are again talking about "we can't do it now it's too late", which is totally irrelevant.
At very beginning, after the first march, government already compromised and do the amendment, but riots think that is not enough. So all hk people shall just listen to riots because they are dare to do the violence? Why you so believe that these riots stand for the majority of our hk people? Why you think our hk people support their appeal? Have you ever been to hk or recently visit hk? Why you think you know much more than our hk people ourselves about our will?
You can claim that you have been living in HK for whatever many years and how much better you know about the citizens than me, while never showing any evidence, so after all it's all opinions. Even if you are a reporter from HK, you are still just part of the media, which is telling your point of view. "Why you so believe that these riots stand for the majority of our hk people?" The thing is simple: let everyone vote on "Do you agree on withdrawing the extradition bill" and see the result. Otherwise it's just personal opinion for both of us.
Yes, without a real vote, I cannot prove my statement for sure, but I read our local forum, the comments under local news everyday, and my colleagues are all upset about the riots. So I undoubtedly know much more than you about hk current situation. You want evidence? Why not you post a photo of where you are and I do the same? If you just think all the negative comments about hk protest are fake, you already lost your free mind and be a robot controlled by your media
On October 10 2019 18:51 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Must be news to the people living there, with their own government, their own laws, their own military that they aren't independent. That PRC does not recognise China, does not make Taiwan stop existing. But it doesn't matter in any case as your positon is that the people of Hong Kong should just roll over and accept that the People's Republic of China does not adhere to agreements.
And yes, for your information I have been to HK recently and have visited it many times in the past.
Have you ever seen what they are doing? Hopefully you are honest about statement that you came to hk recently, the real hk is we cannot go out our living area during the weekend because of them and we barely cannot find a opening restaurant during the last weekend. They are ruining the city and most of us don’t support them. Also please visit some hk local online forums to read what we think (u can use google translate). These riots doesn’t represent hk.
"Oh no, the millions upon millions of people protesting human rights are making my personal life inconvenient. How dare they?"
You can't claim the protests and riots doesn't represent HK when double digit percentage of the population is out on the streets. It's one of the largest protests anywhere in the world. You not only don't get to say it, it's amazingly disrespectful to even claim as much. Their views matter as much as yours, probably more so because they are willing to do something about it while you whine on a forum about how you can't find any open restaurants.
On October 10 2019 18:51 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Must be news to the people living there, with their own government, their own laws, their own military that they aren't independent. That PRC does not recognise China, does not make Taiwan stop existing. But it doesn't matter in any case as your positon is that the people of Hong Kong should just roll over and accept that the People's Republic of China does not adhere to agreements.
And yes, for your information I have been to HK recently and have visited it many times in the past.
Have you ever seen what they are doing? Hopefully you are honest about statement that you came to hk recently, the real hk is we cannot go out our living area during the weekend because of them and we barely cannot find a opening restaurant during the last weekend. They are ruining the city and most of us don’t support them. Also please visit some hk local online forums to read what we think (u can use google translate). These riots doesn’t represent hk.
"Oh no, the millions upon millions of people protesting human rights are making my personal life inconvenient. How dare they?"
You can't claim the protests and riots doesn't represent HK when double digit percentage of the population is out on the streets. It's one of the largest protests anywhere in the world. You not only don't get to say it, it's amazingly disrespectful to even claim as much. Their views matter as much as yours, probably more so because they are willing to do something about it while you whine on a forum about how you can't find any open restaurants.
Double digit percentage? Where you get the info? When it is into the riots phase, as far as I know the number of protesters for a signal march never reach to 100k, which less than 2 percent of hk population (we have 7 million people). And I am the only one? Please read the entire thread that there is maybe 3-4 people have living experience in hk, and see their point of view. And if you are clever enough to use google translate, you can visit yahoo.hk hk01 news(two biggest local News provider) or our local forum discuss.com.hk to see real hkese comment about the riot. The world is not like what your media tells to you.
Again, I am not saying that PRC is right, extradition is right, and hk people are supporting extradition, I am saying that we are against their so called 5 appeals, their independence appeal, and their violent activities and put everyone into danger.
People will be upset for a few days but eventually come back to the games. Blizzard knows this which is why it’s far more important to them to maintain strong relations with China.
On October 10 2019 16:51 CraigWT wrote: As a CHINESE Hong Kong citizen and who now lives in Hong Kong, I can tell you guys that the riots are seeking for the only purpose, which is the independence of Hong Kong, and in fact just some of hk citizens are holding this point of view (maybe 1/3, most of them are young people). For achieving their wish, they are destroying hk metro system, burn and destroy CHINESE banks, CHINESE national flags, beating mainland Chinese people or hk people who support the police. The commercial activity, tourism industry is totally broken, many of middle class and rich people are selling their property and preparing for immigration. It is 100% riot instead of peaceful protest. So I assume anyone who support this kind of activity shall support terrorism.
And also, every country have its own “political right”, like in the U.S, racist is the redline, in China territory is the redline, especially for those clear area (Taiwan is another issue, but hk is undoubtedly a part of China) . Yelling “free hk” to Chinese is the same with yelling “niggers are xxx” to American people (just an example no mean for offence), so when a guy comes out and say free hk or similar thing, relevant company must make a decision: respect Chinese “political right” or not.
And last but not least, the hk issue is not like what most of western people know, “a peaceful protest for seeking freedom” (at least not for now, maybe for the very beginning), and people shall make public comment or opinion after collecting some information and trying to know the fact.
Well, the HK government had about half a year to withdraw this extradition bill. But they decided to just sit there and see it escalate, until it's turned into something else, so they can take next step and force the issue. I feel that they were expecting what's happening today. I don't agree with violence from either side, but I'd say that if the HK government really wants this to end in peace, first they should end the extradition bill as a starting point. And of course you'll say "it's useless now, the situation has completely changed blablabla..." but if you just assume that things won't work, you'll never do anything and of course nothing would work.
Don’t you know the government have already done lots of amendments on the law to compromise? And do you know the initial reason for drafting the extradition bill? If you don’t I can tell you, it is because 2 years ago, a hk guy murdered another hk lady in Taiwan and fly back to hk, because no extradition bill between these two places, the guy is still get no punishment, and also many Chinese criminals are now living in hk and get no punishment.
Now it is the riots are forcing the government to 100% listen to them and they don’t accept any compromise. (please know the fact not the majority of hk people are supporting the riots)
Yeah of course, when the extradition bill was proposed, Taiwan government clearly claimed that even if the bill passes, they would not agree on extraditing the criminal at the cost of sacrificing the freedom in HongKong. So if the murder is the cause, there's no reason to move on and everything can go back to normal. The fact that HongKong government still wants to force it out tells that it's not that simple.
Taiwan? Since Taiwan government now have really bad relationship with PRC, they will support anything that against PRC. And please try to know the entire storyline and their so called “5 appeal and no one less” and the response from the commissioner, besides the extradition, they ask the police release all arrested riots and punish the people who have the fight with them, and force the commissioner to resign. is it the freedom you support? They can do whatever they want and get no punishment and people against them shall get arrested? If the government agree all of their appeal, then what would you think the hk will be? When you feel unhappy about the government, you just walk into the street, fight against the police, burning shops and banks, and ask the government must listen to you?
“Since Taiwan government now have really bad relationship with PRC, they will support anything that against PRC.” Well yeah now western government really have bad relationship with PRC, too, so people should support anything that's against PRC. What's the point? Why is so hard to admit that withdrawing (not amending) the extradition bill could have alleviated the situation and maybe even stopped it in the beginning? About the rest of the post, we were talking about "what started this protest and what could have been done to end it early" and you are again talking about "we can't do it now it's too late", which is totally irrelevant.
At very beginning, after the first march, government already compromised and do the amendment, but riots think that is not enough. So all hk people shall just listen to riots because they are dare to do the violence? Why you so believe that these riots stand for the majority of our hk people? Why you think our hk people support their appeal? Have you ever been to hk or recently visit hk? Why you think you know much more than our hk people ourselves about our will?
You can claim that you have been living in HK for whatever many years and how much better you know about the citizens than me, while never showing any evidence, so after all it's all opinions. Even if you are a reporter from HK, you are still just part of the media, which is telling your point of view. "Why you so believe that these riots stand for the majority of our hk people?" The thing is simple: let everyone vote on "Do you agree on withdrawing the extradition bill" and see the result. Otherwise it's just personal opinion for both of us.
Yes, without a real vote, I cannot prove my statement for sure, but I read our local forum, the comments under local news everyday, and my colleagues are all upset about the riots. So I undoubtedly know much more than you about hk current situation. You want evidence? Why not you post a photo of where you are and I do the same? If you just think all the negative comments about hk protest are fake, you already lost your free mind and be a robot controlled by your media
Nope, I never said they were fake. And I just noticed that in the most recent news, it seems that the HK government decided to announce the withdrawal of the extradition bill on next Wednesday. It's a starting point at least. But I believe that it would be much better if she did that back in June, when the protest was still peaceful. Is it too late? Very likely. Again I want to make it clear that I don't agree with violence on either side and hope that it ends peacefully. But at this point I don't think either side would take a step back. It's like when the oil in your pot catches fire - you could have stopped the fire in the beginning by covering the pot with the lid, but you just sit there and let the entire kitchen burn, now the lid won't help. I agree that the violence should stop, but also the government should be blamed for starting it and didn't react to it before it escalated. Now the entire city is the victim.
On October 10 2019 18:51 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Must be news to the people living there, with their own government, their own laws, their own military that they aren't independent. That PRC does not recognise China, does not make Taiwan stop existing. But it doesn't matter in any case as your positon is that the people of Hong Kong should just roll over and accept that the People's Republic of China does not adhere to agreements.
And yes, for your information I have been to HK recently and have visited it many times in the past.
Have you ever seen what they are doing? Hopefully you are honest about statement that you came to hk recently, the real hk is we cannot go out our living area during the weekend because of them and we barely cannot find a opening restaurant during the last weekend. They are ruining the city and most of us don’t support them. Also please visit some hk local online forums to read what we think (u can use google translate). These riots doesn’t represent hk.
"Oh no, the millions upon millions of people protesting human rights are making my personal life inconvenient. How dare they?"
You can't claim the protests and riots doesn't represent HK when double digit percentage of the population is out on the streets. It's one of the largest protests anywhere in the world. You not only don't get to say it, it's amazingly disrespectful to even claim as much. Their views matter as much as yours, probably more so because they are willing to do something about it while you whine on a forum about how you can't find any open restaurants.
Double digit percentage? Where you get the info? When it is into the riots phase, as far as I know the number of protesters for a signal march never reach to 100k, which less than 2 percent of hk population (we have 7 million people). And I am the only one? Please read the entire thread that there is maybe 3-4 people have living experience in hk, and see their point of view. And if you are clever enough to use google translate, you can visit yahoo.hk hk01 news(two biggest local News provider) or our local forum discuss.com.hk to see real hkese comment about the riot. The world is not like what your media tells to you.
Again, I am not saying that PRC is right, extradition is right, and hk people are supporting extradition, I am saying that we are against their so called 5 appeals, their independence appeal, and their violent activities and put everyone into danger.
There were over a million protestors in the beginning. You can't just assume all of them immediately became unsympathetic to the cause once the riota broke out.
I would also appreciate it if you didn't assume anyone else doesn't understand the situation just because you fail to grasp it yourself.
On October 10 2019 16:51 CraigWT wrote: As a CHINESE Hong Kong citizen and who now lives in Hong Kong, I can tell you guys that the riots are seeking for the only purpose, which is the independence of Hong Kong, and in fact just some of hk citizens are holding this point of view (maybe 1/3, most of them are young people). For achieving their wish, they are destroying hk metro system, burn and destroy CHINESE banks, CHINESE national flags, beating mainland Chinese people or hk people who support the police. The commercial activity, tourism industry is totally broken, many of middle class and rich people are selling their property and preparing for immigration. It is 100% riot instead of peaceful protest. So I assume anyone who support this kind of activity shall support terrorism.
And also, every country have its own “political right”, like in the U.S, racist is the redline, in China territory is the redline, especially for those clear area (Taiwan is another issue, but hk is undoubtedly a part of China) . Yelling “free hk” to Chinese is the same with yelling “niggers are xxx” to American people (just an example no mean for offence), so when a guy comes out and say free hk or similar thing, relevant company must make a decision: respect Chinese “political right” or not.
And last but not least, the hk issue is not like what most of western people know, “a peaceful protest for seeking freedom” (at least not for now, maybe for the very beginning), and people shall make public comment or opinion after collecting some information and trying to know the fact.
Well, the HK government had about half a year to withdraw this extradition bill. But they decided to just sit there and see it escalate, until it's turned into something else, so they can take next step and force the issue. I feel that they were expecting what's happening today. I don't agree with violence from either side, but I'd say that if the HK government really wants this to end in peace, first they should end the extradition bill as a starting point. And of course you'll say "it's useless now, the situation has completely changed blablabla..." but if you just assume that things won't work, you'll never do anything and of course nothing would work.
Don’t you know the government have already done lots of amendments on the law to compromise? And do you know the initial reason for drafting the extradition bill? If you don’t I can tell you, it is because 2 years ago, a hk guy murdered another hk lady in Taiwan and fly back to hk, because no extradition bill between these two places, the guy is still get no punishment, and also many Chinese criminals are now living in hk and get no punishment.
Now it is the riots are forcing the government to 100% listen to them and they don’t accept any compromise. (please know the fact not the majority of hk people are supporting the riots)
Yeah of course, when the extradition bill was proposed, Taiwan government clearly claimed that even if the bill passes, they would not agree on extraditing the criminal at the cost of sacrificing the freedom in HongKong. So if the murder is the cause, there's no reason to move on and everything can go back to normal. The fact that HongKong government still wants to force it out tells that it's not that simple.
Taiwan? Since Taiwan government now have really bad relationship with PRC, they will support anything that against PRC. And please try to know the entire storyline and their so called “5 appeal and no one less” and the response from the commissioner, besides the extradition, they ask the police release all arrested riots and punish the people who have the fight with them, and force the commissioner to resign. is it the freedom you support? They can do whatever they want and get no punishment and people against them shall get arrested? If the government agree all of their appeal, then what would you think the hk will be? When you feel unhappy about the government, you just walk into the street, fight against the police, burning shops and banks, and ask the government must listen to you?
“Since Taiwan government now have really bad relationship with PRC, they will support anything that against PRC.” Well yeah now western government really have bad relationship with PRC, too, so people should support anything that's against PRC. What's the point? Why is so hard to admit that withdrawing (not amending) the extradition bill could have alleviated the situation and maybe even stopped it in the beginning? About the rest of the post, we were talking about "what started this protest and what could have been done to end it early" and you are again talking about "we can't do it now it's too late", which is totally irrelevant.
At very beginning, after the first march, government already compromised and do the amendment, but riots think that is not enough. So all hk people shall just listen to riots because they are dare to do the violence? Why you so believe that these riots stand for the majority of our hk people? Why you think our hk people support their appeal? Have you ever been to hk or recently visit hk? Why you think you know much more than our hk people ourselves about our will?
You can claim that you have been living in HK for whatever many years and how much better you know about the citizens than me, while never showing any evidence, so after all it's all opinions. Even if you are a reporter from HK, you are still just part of the media, which is telling your point of view. "Why you so believe that these riots stand for the majority of our hk people?" The thing is simple: let everyone vote on "Do you agree on withdrawing the extradition bill" and see the result. Otherwise it's just personal opinion for both of us.
Yes, without a real vote, I cannot prove my statement for sure, but I read our local forum, the comments under local news everyday, and my colleagues are all upset about the riots. So I undoubtedly know much more than you about hk current situation. You want evidence? Why not you post a photo of where you are and I do the same? If you just think all the negative comments about hk protest are fake, you already lost your free mind and be a robot controlled by your media
Nope, I never said they were fake. And I just noticed that in the most recent news, it seems that the HK government decide to announce the withdrawal of the extradition bill on next Wednesday. It's a starting point at least. But I believe that it would be much better if she did that back in June, when the protest was still peaceful. Is it too late? Very likely. Again I want to make it clear that I don't agree with violence on either side and hope that it ends peacefully. But at this point I don't think either side would take a step back. It's like when the oil in your pot catches fire - you could have stopped it in the beginning by covering the lid, but you just sit there and let the entire kitchen burn, now the lid won't help. I agree that the violence should stop, but also the government should be responsible for starting it and didn't react to it before it escalated. Now the entire city is the victim.
Let me tell you the storyline, mid of June when extradition bill news first come out, maybe over a million hk people come out and did a peaceful demonstration and after that the government did the amendment about the bill, then the early July maybe 100k -200k people do the first big protest and started limited violence, government have no response for their further appeal, and their violence become bigger and bigger, the august 3-5 was big days, the riots first time block the airport metro system and do the real damage to the city. augest 12, a bunch of people who against their appeal had a fight with them, the entire violence activity begins and become worse and worse now. So into this phase, just maybe tens of thousands of people are still very active, most of us are against with them.
So did the government do nothing? No, they did compromise, is it enough? I don’t know. Does the government have the responsibility? For sure. But these riots, they never make compromise, they are using violence to force the government to fully listen to them, which i totally disagree. And from beginning asking cease the extradition bill application process to now “independent hk, ask the police release the riots who have done serious violence to the city, their appeals lost justice also.
In the day 1, for sure the majority of hk citizen (including me, but I am satisfied with the first amendment) appreciate the spirit, but now we are against with them, in fact the riots now are different people from the people who participate the first demonstration (hopefully can give you a clearer understanding about the real thing happened in hk)
Besides, regarding to PRC attitude, PRC didn’t do many negative report at very beginning, PRC starts to be very negative when “free hk” slogan comes out. And zero tolerance since then. Both The mainland Chinese people and PRC government have very clear opinion on hk issue, as long as your appeal is not seeking independence, you can do whatever you want, it is the redline.
On October 10 2019 18:51 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Must be news to the people living there, with their own government, their own laws, their own military that they aren't independent. That PRC does not recognise China, does not make Taiwan stop existing. But it doesn't matter in any case as your positon is that the people of Hong Kong should just roll over and accept that the People's Republic of China does not adhere to agreements.
And yes, for your information I have been to HK recently and have visited it many times in the past.
Have you ever seen what they are doing? Hopefully you are honest about statement that you came to hk recently, the real hk is we cannot go out our living area during the weekend because of them and we barely cannot find a opening restaurant during the last weekend. They are ruining the city and most of us don’t support them. Also please visit some hk local online forums to read what we think (u can use google translate). These riots doesn’t represent hk.
"Oh no, the millions upon millions of people protesting human rights are making my personal life inconvenient. How dare they?"
You can't claim the protests and riots doesn't represent HK when double digit percentage of the population is out on the streets. It's one of the largest protests anywhere in the world. You not only don't get to say it, it's amazingly disrespectful to even claim as much. Their views matter as much as yours, probably more so because they are willing to do something about it while you whine on a forum about how you can't find any open restaurants.
Double digit percentage? Where you get the info? When it is into the riots phase, as far as I know the number of protesters for a signal march never reach to 100k, which less than 2 percent of hk population (we have 7 million people). And I am the only one? Please read the entire thread that there is maybe 3-4 people have living experience in hk, and see their point of view. And if you are clever enough to use google translate, you can visit yahoo.hk hk01 news(two biggest local News provider) or our local forum discuss.com.hk to see real hkese comment about the riot. The world is not like what your media tells to you.
Again, I am not saying that PRC is right, extradition is right, and hk people are supporting extradition, I am saying that we are against their so called 5 appeals, their independence appeal, and their violent activities and put everyone into danger.
There were over a million protestors in the beginning. You can't just assume all of them immediately became unsympathetic to the cause once the riota broke out.
I would also appreciate it if you didn't assume anyone else doesn't understand the situation just because you fail to grasp it yourself.
On October 10 2019 21:49 CraigWT wrote: Let me tell you the storyline, mid of June when extradition bill news first come out, maybe over a million hk people come out and did a peaceful demonstration and after that the government did the amendment about the bill, then the early July maybe 100k -200k people do the first big protest and started limited violence,
Canada extradites its citizens to the USA. This does not mean US laws are enforced in Canada. Can you explain how the extradition bill violates the rights of Hong Kong citizens and then how the amendment to the extradition bill changed things?
On October 10 2019 21:49 CraigWT wrote: Let me tell you the storyline, mid of June when extradition bill news first come out, maybe over a million hk people come out and did a peaceful demonstration and after that the government did the amendment about the bill, then the early July maybe 100k -200k people do the first big protest and started limited violence,
Canada extradites its citizens to the USA. This does not mean US laws are enforced in Canada. Can you explain how the extradition bill violates the rights of Hong Kong citizens and then how the amendment to the extradition bill changed things?
The key issue is two things: 1. The commissioner has the right to decide if the criminal suspects shall be extradited, 2. What kind of crime shall be included in the extradition bill. Since commissioner always has close relationships with Beijing and hk people have no faith on Chinese legal system, so hk people worried that Beijing can arrest whoever they want as long as the hk people have ever visited the mainland China. Then amendment is made that only several serious kinds of crime are included, like murder rape robbery etc, what they worried like politic/economy crime are excluded, and also the evidence shall be checked by HK legal system. The amended one I think is fine. If you did such crime, you shall get punished. But still some of hk people think PRC is like an evil, if they want to arrest you they will make fake evidence etc, and don’t accept any kind of extradition (in my opinion, if you think mainland China is such bad, you shall never visit mainland, and then there is no way they can find you guilty). And some of them are being told that even thought hk government make a compromise, they will do what they want eventually (pass the first draft), so we shall stop the government at very beginning.
So why hk citizen think it will affect their freedom? Simple, for example, if a citizen is in hk and always has negative comment against PRC, PRC hate this citizen and can do nothing. But after the extradition PRC can say that such citizen is against Chinese law when he visited the mainland (making up some fake evidence), and ask hk government to extradite this citizen. So they think they lost their freedom (but IMO, they just have strong bias against PRC).
On October 10 2019 21:49 CraigWT wrote: Let me tell you the storyline, mid of June when extradition bill news first come out, maybe over a million hk people come out and did a peaceful demonstration and after that the government did the amendment about the bill, then the early July maybe 100k -200k people do the first big protest and started limited violence,
Canada extradites its citizens to the USA. This does not mean US laws are enforced in Canada. Can you explain how the extradition bill violates the rights of Hong Kong citizens and then how the amendment to the extradition bill changed things?
The key issue is two things: 1. The commissioner has the right to decide if the criminal suspects shall be extradited, 2. What kind of crime shall be included in the extradition bill. Since commissioner always has close relationships with Beijing and hk people have no faith on Chinese legal system, so hk people worried that Beijing can arrest whoever they want as long as the hk people have ever visited the mainland China. Then amendment is made that only several serious kinds of crime are included, like murder rape robbery etc, what they worried like politic/economy crime are excluded, and also the evidence shall be checked by HK legal system. The amended one I think is fine. If you did such crime, you shall get punished. But still some of hk people think PRC is like an evil, if they want to arrest you they will make fake evidence etc, and don’t accept any kind of extradition (in my opinion, if you think mainland China is such bad, you shall never visit mainland, and then there is no way they can find you guilty). And some of them are being told that even thought hk government make a compromise, they will do what they want eventually (pass the first draft), so we shall stop the government at very beginning.
So why hk citizen think it will affect their freedom? Simple, for example, if a citizen is in hk and always has negative comment against PRC, PRC hate this citizen and can do nothing. But after the extradition PRC can say that such citizen is against Chinese law when he visited the mainland (making up some fake evidence), and ask hk government to extradite this citizen. So they think they lost their freedom (but IMO, they just have strong bias against PRC).
Yes, agreed obviously HK citizens are overreacting. PRC can surely be trusted, its not like they have abducted people from HK before without any legal proof.
They have already done what you say they wouldn't do, just 100 times worse without even showing any proof or getting any approval. Sounds more like you have strong bias not the other way around.
On October 10 2019 20:05 tigon_ridge wrote: When you choose to compromise your own integrity in order to appease the mob... In the long run, that will be bad for business.
I could easily replace this with "When you choose to compromise your own integrity in order to appease an incredibly sensitive authoritarian regime... In the long run, that will be bad for business"
Like seriously people. I don't get this view - it's such a bad long-term business model to subjugate yourself to China like this. Like the whole NBA thing - it was a fucking tweet. Like this huge shitstorm was caused by a god damn tweet. China has cut all official business ties with the NBA - and let me repeat this again - over a god damn tweet, in a country where people actually have freedom of speech. You will never be able to control people to that extent in a place like America, where anti-authoritarian tendencies run strong (which is great, btw, its one part of the US I appreciate a lot).
I genuinely hope that businesses start to reconsider investing in China over this shit. How are you ever going to satisfy the whims of a capricious, incredibly easily offended authoritarian regime? A regime that can, on a whim, essentially nullify any investment you've made in the country - over a god damn tweet. Like the NBA is literally going to lose hundreds of millions of dollars over a tweet from someone that they actually can't even control.
Investing hundreds of millions into a country like that just seems like bad business to me.
On October 10 2019 21:49 CraigWT wrote: Let me tell you the storyline, mid of June when extradition bill news first come out, maybe over a million hk people come out and did a peaceful demonstration and after that the government did the amendment about the bill, then the early July maybe 100k -200k people do the first big protest and started limited violence,
Canada extradites its citizens to the USA. This does not mean US laws are enforced in Canada. Can you explain how the extradition bill violates the rights of Hong Kong citizens and then how the amendment to the extradition bill changed things?
The key issue is two things: 1. The commissioner has the right to decide if the criminal suspects shall be extradited, 2. What kind of crime shall be included in the extradition bill. Since commissioner always has close relationships with Beijing and hk people have no faith on Chinese legal system, so hk people worried that Beijing can arrest whoever they want as long as the hk people have ever visited the mainland China. Then amendment is made that only several serious kinds of crime are included, like murder rape robbery etc, what they worried like politic/economy crime are excluded, and also the evidence shall be checked by HK legal system. The amended one I think is fine. If you did such crime, you shall get punished. But still some of hk people think PRC is like an evil, if they want to arrest you they will make fake evidence etc, and don’t accept any kind of extradition (in my opinion, if you think mainland China is such bad, you shall never visit mainland, and then there is no way they can find you guilty). And some of them are being told that even thought hk government make a compromise, they will do what they want eventually (pass the first draft), so we shall stop the government at very beginning.
So why hk citizen think it will affect their freedom? Simple, for example, if a citizen is in hk and always has negative comment against PRC, PRC hate this citizen and can do nothing. But after the extradition PRC can say that such citizen is against Chinese law when he visited the mainland (making up some fake evidence), and ask hk government to extradite this citizen. So they think they lost their freedom (but IMO, they just have strong bias against PRC).
Yes, agreed obviously HK citizens are overreacting. PRC can surely be trusted, its not like they have abducted people from HK before without any legal proof.
They have already done what you say they wouldn't do, just 100 times worse without even showing any proof or getting any approval. Sounds more like you have strong bias not the other way around.
China is facing some problems for sure (Xi amended the constitution and gave him the chance to become a dictator), and he wants to build a flawless image, that’s the reason he did something to that bookstore since the bookstore wanted to publish a book which will damage his public image (please note that that timing was the most crucial period that Xi was seeking for support from the most ccp governor to approve the constitution amendment, and the opponents were stopping him), so it was a political compact rather than a simple control of freedom. As a hkese and Chinese, I am worried about the Chinese future for sure, but tbh, extradition will have like very little impact on ordinary hk citizen. If PRC really start officially control about the freedom of speech in hk, then it means Xi has become the real dictator, and all protest activities will be totally useless (we have to run away). Believe or not, CCP now have serious inner conflicts, many high level CCP governors are against Xi’s become the dictator, don’t think Chinese people are all brainwashed and love dictator, no we don’t.
On October 10 2019 21:49 CraigWT wrote: Let me tell you the storyline, mid of June when extradition bill news first come out, maybe over a million hk people come out and did a peaceful demonstration and after that the government did the amendment about the bill, then the early July maybe 100k -200k people do the first big protest and started limited violence,
Canada extradites its citizens to the USA. This does not mean US laws are enforced in Canada. Can you explain how the extradition bill violates the rights of Hong Kong citizens and then how the amendment to the extradition bill changed things?
The key issue is two things: 1. The commissioner has the right to decide if the criminal suspects shall be extradited, 2. What kind of crime shall be included in the extradition bill. Since commissioner always has close relationships with Beijing and hk people have no faith on Chinese legal system, so hk people worried that Beijing can arrest whoever they want as long as the hk people have ever visited the mainland China. Then amendment is made that only several serious kinds of crime are included, like murder rape robbery etc, what they worried like politic/economy crime are excluded, and also the evidence shall be checked by HK legal system. The amended one I think is fine. If you did such crime, you shall get punished. But still some of hk people think PRC is like an evil, if they want to arrest you they will make fake evidence etc, and don’t accept any kind of extradition (in my opinion, if you think mainland China is such bad, you shall never visit mainland, and then there is no way they can find you guilty). And some of them are being told that even thought hk government make a compromise, they will do what they want eventually (pass the first draft), so we shall stop the government at very beginning.
So why hk citizen think it will affect their freedom? Simple, for example, if a citizen is in hk and always has negative comment against PRC, PRC hate this citizen and can do nothing. But after the extradition PRC can say that such citizen is against Chinese law when he visited the mainland (making up some fake evidence), and ask hk government to extradite this citizen. So they think they lost their freedom (but IMO, they just have strong bias against PRC).
Yes, agreed obviously HK citizens are overreacting. PRC can surely be trusted, its not like they have abducted people from HK before without any legal proof.
They have already done what you say they wouldn't do, just 100 times worse without even showing any proof or getting any approval. Sounds more like you have strong bias not the other way around.
And please remind that just some of hk citizens are against PRC, not “hk people are overreacting”, I made the statement many times in this thread, don’t assume the majority of hk people are supporting current riots, the entire storyline I have written above, please spend few minutes reading, rather than believe everything your media tell you
On October 10 2019 21:49 CraigWT wrote: Let me tell you the storyline, mid of June when extradition bill news first come out, maybe over a million hk people come out and did a peaceful demonstration and after that the government did the amendment about the bill, then the early July maybe 100k -200k people do the first big protest and started limited violence,
Canada extradites its citizens to the USA. This does not mean US laws are enforced in Canada. Can you explain how the extradition bill violates the rights of Hong Kong citizens and then how the amendment to the extradition bill changed things?
The key issue is two things: 1. The commissioner has the right to decide if the criminal suspects shall be extradited, 2. What kind of crime shall be included in the extradition bill. Since commissioner always has close relationships with Beijing and hk people have no faith on Chinese legal system, so hk people worried that Beijing can arrest whoever they want as long as the hk people have ever visited the mainland China. Then amendment is made that only several serious kinds of crime are included, like murder rape robbery etc, what they worried like politic/economy crime are excluded, and also the evidence shall be checked by HK legal system. The amended one I think is fine. If you did such crime, you shall get punished. But still some of hk people think PRC is like an evil, if they want to arrest you they will make fake evidence etc, and don’t accept any kind of extradition (in my opinion, if you think mainland China is such bad, you shall never visit mainland, and then there is no way they can find you guilty). And some of them are being told that even thought hk government make a compromise, they will do what they want eventually (pass the first draft), so we shall stop the government at very beginning.
So why hk citizen think it will affect their freedom? Simple, for example, if a citizen is in hk and always has negative comment against PRC, PRC hate this citizen and can do nothing. But after the extradition PRC can say that such citizen is against Chinese law when he visited the mainland (making up some fake evidence), and ask hk government to extradite this citizen. So they think they lost their freedom (but IMO, they just have strong bias against PRC).
so China reacted by compromising? if China reacted by compromising and amending the bill so that it is like most extradition deals between neighbouring allies then China did the right thing.
On October 10 2019 21:49 CraigWT wrote: Let me tell you the storyline, mid of June when extradition bill news first come out, maybe over a million hk people come out and did a peaceful demonstration and after that the government did the amendment about the bill, then the early July maybe 100k -200k people do the first big protest and started limited violence,
Canada extradites its citizens to the USA. This does not mean US laws are enforced in Canada. Can you explain how the extradition bill violates the rights of Hong Kong citizens and then how the amendment to the extradition bill changed things?
The key issue is two things: 1. The commissioner has the right to decide if the criminal suspects shall be extradited, 2. What kind of crime shall be included in the extradition bill. Since commissioner always has close relationships with Beijing and hk people have no faith on Chinese legal system, so hk people worried that Beijing can arrest whoever they want as long as the hk people have ever visited the mainland China. Then amendment is made that only several serious kinds of crime are included, like murder rape robbery etc, what they worried like politic/economy crime are excluded, and also the evidence shall be checked by HK legal system. The amended one I think is fine. If you did such crime, you shall get punished. But still some of hk people think PRC is like an evil, if they want to arrest you they will make fake evidence etc, and don’t accept any kind of extradition (in my opinion, if you think mainland China is such bad, you shall never visit mainland, and then there is no way they can find you guilty). And some of them are being told that even thought hk government make a compromise, they will do what they want eventually (pass the first draft), so we shall stop the government at very beginning.
So why hk citizen think it will affect their freedom? Simple, for example, if a citizen is in hk and always has negative comment against PRC, PRC hate this citizen and can do nothing. But after the extradition PRC can say that such citizen is against Chinese law when he visited the mainland (making up some fake evidence), and ask hk government to extradite this citizen. So they think they lost their freedom (but IMO, they just have strong bias against PRC).
so China reacted by compromising? if China reacted by compromising and amending the bill so that it is like most extradition deals between neighbouring allies then China did the right thing.
Yes they made compromise, but the key thing is for riots and people who support the riots, they don’t trust the entire PRC legal system, they think your compromise will not stop you arresting hk people if you want, so they will deny any extradition bill between mainland and hk, whatever the bill itself is reasonable or not. And till now, extradition bill itself does not matter, the riots are seeking for independence. I don’t want to comment about what they think is right or wrong, but I just don’t agree they are using violence, threating people’s security, to force government, force us to agree with them. In fact, many of us think they are no different with the RED GUARDS in the culture revolution period in China. A restaurant owner claim supporting the hk police, then they destroyed the restaurant, a normal guy yelling hk belongs to China, they beat the guy, they don’t allow any different voices, it is not the freedom at all. So I personally hold strong negative feeling to those people who know nothing about the current situation of hk and just saying I support the protest, give them freedom.
On October 10 2019 21:49 CraigWT wrote: Let me tell you the storyline, mid of June when extradition bill news first come out, maybe over a million hk people come out and did a peaceful demonstration and after that the government did the amendment about the bill, then the early July maybe 100k -200k people do the first big protest and started limited violence,
Canada extradites its citizens to the USA. This does not mean US laws are enforced in Canada. Can you explain how the extradition bill violates the rights of Hong Kong citizens and then how the amendment to the extradition bill changed things?
The key issue is two things: 1. The commissioner has the right to decide if the criminal suspects shall be extradited, 2. What kind of crime shall be included in the extradition bill. Since commissioner always has close relationships with Beijing and hk people have no faith on Chinese legal system, so hk people worried that Beijing can arrest whoever they want as long as the hk people have ever visited the mainland China. Then amendment is made that only several serious kinds of crime are included, like murder rape robbery etc, what they worried like politic/economy crime are excluded, and also the evidence shall be checked by HK legal system. The amended one I think is fine. If you did such crime, you shall get punished. But still some of hk people think PRC is like an evil, if they want to arrest you they will make fake evidence etc, and don’t accept any kind of extradition (in my opinion, if you think mainland China is such bad, you shall never visit mainland, and then there is no way they can find you guilty). And some of them are being told that even thought hk government make a compromise, they will do what they want eventually (pass the first draft), so we shall stop the government at very beginning.
So why hk citizen think it will affect their freedom? Simple, for example, if a citizen is in hk and always has negative comment against PRC, PRC hate this citizen and can do nothing. But after the extradition PRC can say that such citizen is against Chinese law when he visited the mainland (making up some fake evidence), and ask hk government to extradite this citizen. So they think they lost their freedom (but IMO, they just have strong bias against PRC).
so China reacted by compromising? if China reacted by compromising and amending the bill so that it is like most extradition deals between neighbouring allies then China did the right thing.
Yes they made compromise, but the key thing is for riots and people who support the riots, they don’t trust the entire PRC legal system, they think your compromise will not stop you arresting hk people if you want, so they will deny any extradition bill between mainland and hk, whatever the bill itself is reasonable or not. And till now, extradition bill itself does not matter, the riots are seeking for independence. I don’t want to comment about what they think is right or wrong, but I just don’t agree they are using violence, threating people’s security, to force government, force us to agree with them. In fact, many of us think they are no different with the RED GUARDS in the culture revolution period in China. A restaurant owner claim supporting the hk police, then they destroyed the restaurant, a normal guy yelling hk belongs to China, they beat the guy, they don’t allow any different voices, it is not the freedom at all. So I personally hold strong negative feeling to those people who know nothing about the current situation of hk and just saying I support the protest, give them freedom.
While I obviously don't know anything about your countries actual situation from what I have read China is not respecting the 1984 commitment to respect the 1 country 2 systems deal. From what I have read China openly deny the deal and consider it void and null. That says everything about HKs precarious situation, if China is open about them not respecting the deal it shows they plan is to incorporate HK in mainland China.
It seems to me China is pulling HK into mainland China one small step at a time, sure even if you are right and this one bill isn't a big step you must agree it is a small one and a thousand small ones makes a mile. When is the "right" time for protests to arrise before the situation has gotten too much out of hand, which small step should trigger the resistance before it is too late?
I am very ignorent of the whole situation but from what I have read it seems there are few solutions besides HK assimilating into China or HK gaining independence. Especially since China deny the validity of the agreement but even if they honored it the deal is on the clock, 50 years from 1984.
On October 10 2019 20:05 tigon_ridge wrote: When you choose to compromise your own integrity in order to appease the mob... In the long run, that will be bad for business.
I could easily replace this with "When you choose to compromise your own integrity in order to appease an incredibly sensitive authoritarian regime... In the long run, that will be bad for business"
Like seriously people. I don't get this view - it's such a bad long-term business model to subjugate yourself to China like this. Like the whole NBA thing - it was a fucking tweet. Like this huge shitstorm was caused by a god damn tweet. China has cut all official business ties with the NBA - and let me repeat this again - over a god damn tweet, in a country where people actually have freedom of speech. You will never be able to control people to that extent in a place like America, where anti-authoritarian tendencies run strong (which is great, btw, its one part of the US I appreciate a lot).
I genuinely hope that businesses start to reconsider investing in China over this shit. How are you ever going to satisfy the whims of a capricious, incredibly easily offended authoritarian regime? A regime that can, on a whim, essentially nullify any investment you've made in the country - over a god damn tweet. Like the NBA is literally going to lose hundreds of millions of dollars over a tweet from someone that they actually can't even control.
Investing hundreds of millions into a country like that just seems like bad business to me.
I feel this is a good point, relating back to the original discussion.
The NBA example being bigger than the Blizzard one, but can you even kowtow to Chinese demands realistically? It’s completely unsustainable if individuals within your organisation making their personal opinions known basically land your whole company on the hook for offended sensibilities.
I disagree with doing it on a moral level anyway, but even purely pragmatically it doesn’t seem particularly wise to pursue this course.
China if anything is getting more sensitive and more bold in recent times, rather than gradually shifting in the other direction.
Many revolutions turn over against themselves a la the Ropespierre Reign of Terror.
I posted this previously... but its probably been lost in the cross fire. I went to school with a bunch of guys from Hong Kong whose families bolted in 1997 because they thought the 1997 deal was BS. Hong Kong people mistrusting China is a long felt sentiment.
On October 10 2019 23:57 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Many revolutions turn over against themselves a la the Ropespierre Reign of Terror.
I posted this previously... but its probably been lost in the cross fire. I went to school with a bunch of guys from Hong Kong whose families bolted in 1997 because they thought the 1997 deal was BS. Hong Kong people mistrusting China is a long felt sentiment.
Many don’t, or many fail but lay the crumbs for later changes to come. They do vary a fair bit.
There’s not really a singular common thread between violent political agitation through human history, bar almost always it only escalated to violence because of a lack of concessions from whatever group had the power, and a perception that it’s the only option available.
On October 10 2019 20:05 tigon_ridge wrote: When you choose to compromise your own integrity in order to appease the mob... In the long run, that will be bad for business.
I could easily replace this with "When you choose to compromise your own integrity in order to appease an incredibly sensitive authoritarian regime... In the long run, that will be bad for business" + Show Spoiler +
Like seriously people. I don't get this view - it's such a bad long-term business model to subjugate yourself to China like this. Like the whole NBA thing - it was a fucking tweet. Like this huge shitstorm was caused by a god damn tweet. China has cut all official business ties with the NBA - and let me repeat this again - over a god damn tweet, in a country where people actually have freedom of speech. You will never be able to control people to that extent in a place like America, where anti-authoritarian tendencies run strong (which is great, btw, its one part of the US I appreciate a lot).
I genuinely hope that businesses start to reconsider investing in China over this shit. How are you ever going to satisfy the whims of a capricious, incredibly easily offended authoritarian regime? A regime that can, on a whim, essentially nullify any investment you've made in the country - over a god damn tweet. Like the NBA is literally going to lose hundreds of millions of dollars over a tweet from someone that they actually can't even control.
Investing hundreds of millions into a country like that just seems like bad business to me
.
And that's why this time something has to be diffrent with all the hashtags and shit.
If ActiBlizzard, NBA, Apple, VANS and all the others learn that they will lose money in all other countries, making up 90% of their sales revenue, they have to consider to unbend the knee. And if the chinese government snaps, it's on them to explain to millions why the service and products become restricted. They will have to fabricate stories, and answer questions. If this is let go again, there won't be many more chances to spot the subtle changes in products, marketing and storytelling, that are made to please the chinese censors. Companies will get better in hiding when and how they collaborated with government oversight.
On October 10 2019 23:57 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Many revolutions turn over against themselves a la the Ropespierre Reign of Terror.
I posted this previously... but its probably been lost in the cross fire. I went to school with a bunch of guys from Hong Kong whose families bolted in 1997 because they thought the 1997 deal was BS. Hong Kong people mistrusting China is a long felt sentiment.
Don't know what a social revolution with a governement enduring plots (Dumouriez's betrayal was hard), the learning of democracy with tough political struggles within the Convention (confronted to a renewed problematic of centralism), a war with almost all Europe they didn't want and a civil war which was provoked by it as anything to do with with a bunch of rich golden boys demonstrating in the street. The Revolution devoring itself cliche is more a set of harsh measures in order to keep the invaders, who promised a restauration and a slaughter, in check (until the law of june 1794)
The phenomen can not be compared, this is not the same goals, means or "radicalization".
Everyone has done a pretty good job of providing discussion. In the spirit of continued discussion this has been moved to general where you are encourage to continue constructive conversations with each other.
On October 11 2019 00:07 Schelim wrote: this thread hasn't been about what it was originally about in a long time now. just saying.
of course all these issues are worth debating, but maybe the main issue at hand here, in a forum for a Blizzard game, is the thing Blizzard did.
The things Blizzard did are meaningless without the rest of the discussion about China-KH politics. It's about way more than just "someone was banned from competing and a couple of people were fired" and whether or not people agree with that, and all of the issues being discussed show why their actions are deplorable. "In a forum for a video game..." you should talk about the full picture, just as you should in any forum. If you don't want to listen, you don't have to.
Other aspects of the discussions going on here are censorship and denialism by China and mainland China supporters, which serves to highlight... just, so many things, I don't even know where to begin. I appreciate that it's being allowed to continue in this thread, and allowed to continue to be corrected by other objective, passionate users.
On October 10 2019 23:57 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Many revolutions turn over against themselves a la the Ropespierre Reign of Terror.
I posted this previously... but its probably been lost in the cross fire. I went to school with a bunch of guys from Hong Kong whose families bolted in 1997 because they thought the 1997 deal was BS. Hong Kong people mistrusting China is a long felt sentiment.
Don't know what a social revolution with a governement enduring plots (Dumouriez's betrayal was hard), the learning of democracy with tough political struggles within the Convention (confronted to a renewed problematic of centralism), a war with almost all Europe they didn't want and a civil war which was provoked by it as anything to do with with a bunch of rich golden boys demonstrating in the street. The Revolution devoring itself cliche is more a set of harsh measures in order to keep the invaders, who promised a restauration and a slaughter, in check (until the law of june 1794)
The phenomen can not be compared, this is not the same goals, means or "radicalization".
a revolution in the name of "freedom" that ends up not allowing it's participants freedom... that is the common thread. i probably should've been more specific.
On October 10 2019 21:49 CraigWT wrote: Let me tell you the storyline, mid of June when extradition bill news first come out, maybe over a million hk people come out and did a peaceful demonstration and after that the government did the amendment about the bill, then the early July maybe 100k -200k people do the first big protest and started limited violence,
Canada extradites its citizens to the USA. This does not mean US laws are enforced in Canada. Can you explain how the extradition bill violates the rights of Hong Kong citizens and then how the amendment to the extradition bill changed things?
The key issue is two things: 1. The commissioner has the right to decide if the criminal suspects shall be extradited, 2. What kind of crime shall be included in the extradition bill. Since commissioner always has close relationships with Beijing and hk people have no faith on Chinese legal system, so hk people worried that Beijing can arrest whoever they want as long as the hk people have ever visited the mainland China. Then amendment is made that only several serious kinds of crime are included, like murder rape robbery etc, what they worried like politic/economy crime are excluded, and also the evidence shall be checked by HK legal system. The amended one I think is fine. If you did such crime, you shall get punished. But still some of hk people think PRC is like an evil, if they want to arrest you they will make fake evidence etc, and don’t accept any kind of extradition (in my opinion, if you think mainland China is such bad, you shall never visit mainland, and then there is no way they can find you guilty). And some of them are being told that even thought hk government make a compromise, they will do what they want eventually (pass the first draft), so we shall stop the government at very beginning.
So why hk citizen think it will affect their freedom? Simple, for example, if a citizen is in hk and always has negative comment against PRC, PRC hate this citizen and can do nothing. But after the extradition PRC can say that such citizen is against Chinese law when he visited the mainland (making up some fake evidence), and ask hk government to extradite this citizen. So they think they lost their freedom (but IMO, they just have strong bias against PRC).
so China reacted by compromising? if China reacted by compromising and amending the bill so that it is like most extradition deals between neighbouring allies then China did the right thing.
Yes they made compromise, but the key thing is for riots and people who support the riots, they don’t trust the entire PRC legal system, they think your compromise will not stop you arresting hk people if you want, so they will deny any extradition bill between mainland and hk, whatever the bill itself is reasonable or not. And till now, extradition bill itself does not matter, the riots are seeking for independence. I don’t want to comment about what they think is right or wrong, but I just don’t agree they are using violence, threating people’s security, to force government, force us to agree with them. In fact, many of us think they are no different with the RED GUARDS in the culture revolution period in China. A restaurant owner claim supporting the hk police, then they destroyed the restaurant, a normal guy yelling hk belongs to China, they beat the guy, they don’t allow any different voices, it is not the freedom at all. So I personally hold strong negative feeling to those people who know nothing about the current situation of hk and just saying I support the protest, give them freedom.
While I obviously don't know anything about your countries actual situation from what I have read China is not respecting the 1984 commitment to respect the 1 country 2 systems deal. From what I have read China openly deny the deal and consider it void and null. That says everything about HKs precarious situation, if China is open about them not respecting the deal it shows they plan is to incorporate HK in mainland China.
It seems to me China is pulling HK into mainland China one small step at a time, sure even if you are right and this one bill isn't a big step you must agree it is a small one and a thousand small ones makes a mile. When is the "right" time for protests to arrise before the situation has gotten too much out of hand, which small step should trigger the resistance before it is too late?
I am very ignorent of the whole situation but from what I have read it seems there are few solutions besides HK assimilating into China or HK gaining independence. Especially since China deny the validity of the agreement but even if they honored it the deal is on the clock, 50 years from 1984.
No China is not denying the agreement signed in 1984, but the interpretation between uk and China are different, China think one country is more important than two system, uk think two system is more important than one country (so it raise the question, if hk seeking independence, does China has the right to intervene? Under Chinese interpretation yes under uk no). And China is not pulling hk into mainland since Chinese government always want hk as a role model and show to Taiwan that one country two system works, so what Chinese government really want to do is letting hk people love China, but in the past 10 years, for whatever reason, the relationship between hk people and mainland people get worse and worse, so Chinese government hope to do something to warm the relation (but of course failed) , hopefully you can understand that hk is the battlefield for PRC and western (us and uk) both of them wants to import their values to hk people. Yes you can hold your opinion that socialism is evil and capitalism is right, but to me there is no right or wrong for both system (both of system have big flaws) , but I just don’t accept using violence to force us accepting their value
On October 10 2019 20:05 tigon_ridge wrote: When you choose to compromise your own integrity in order to appease the mob... In the long run, that will be bad for business.
I could easily replace this with "When you choose to compromise your own integrity in order to appease an incredibly sensitive authoritarian regime... In the long run, that will be bad for business"
Like seriously people. I don't get this view - it's such a bad long-term business model to subjugate yourself to China like this. Like the whole NBA thing - it was a fucking tweet. Like this huge shitstorm was caused by a god damn tweet. China has cut all official business ties with the NBA - and let me repeat this again - over a god damn tweet, in a country where people actually have freedom of speech. You will never be able to control people to that extent in a place like America, where anti-authoritarian tendencies run strong (which is great, btw, its one part of the US I appreciate a lot).
I genuinely hope that businesses start to reconsider investing in China over this shit. How are you ever going to satisfy the whims of a capricious, incredibly easily offended authoritarian regime? A regime that can, on a whim, essentially nullify any investment you've made in the country - over a god damn tweet. Like the NBA is literally going to lose hundreds of millions of dollars over a tweet from someone that they actually can't even control.
Investing hundreds of millions into a country like that just seems like bad business to me.
I feel this is a good point, relating back to the original discussion.
The NBA example being bigger than the Blizzard one, but can you even kowtow to Chinese demands realistically? It’s completely unsustainable if individuals within your organisation making their personal opinions known basically land your whole company on the hook for offended sensibilities.
I disagree with doing it on a moral level anyway, but even purely pragmatically it doesn’t seem particularly wise to pursue this course.
China if anything is getting more sensitive and more bold in recent times, rather than gradually shifting in the other direction.
This is the right point, Chinese people are way more sensitive than before, because the government tries to lead people to this direction. It’s wrong but it’s the fact. And globally, globalisation is broken, many of the major countries are becoming more conservative than before, which is not a good sign (like China US UK France Germany etc). But for the company that wants to do business with China, they have to accept this fact. They have to accept the fact that it is much easier to offend Chinese people than before, so if you want this market, you better not comment about politics (again maybe it’s wrong, but it’s the fact)
For blizzard, they of course believe stand with mainland Chinese is better than stand with protests. That’s it.
On October 11 2019 00:37 CraigWT wrote: And globally, globalisation is broken, many of the major countries are becoming more conservative than before, which is not a good sign (like China US UK France Germany etc). But for the company that wants to do business with China,
are you stating every instance of every geographical area becoming more conservative is bad? i think it depends on circumstances in each individual area.
On October 11 2019 00:07 Schelim wrote: this thread hasn't been about what it was originally about in a long time now. just saying.
of course all these issues are worth debating, but maybe the main issue at hand here, in a forum for a Blizzard game, is the thing Blizzard did.
Is it not important to discuss the root behind why what Blizzard did was bad as well? It's weird to arbitrarily limit a discussion to only one thing in a bubble without looking at the bigger picture.
On October 11 2019 00:37 CraigWT wrote: And globally, globalisation is broken, many of the major countries are becoming more conservative than before, which is not a good sign (like China US UK France Germany etc). But for the company that wants to do business with China,
are you stating every instance of every geographical area becoming more conservative is bad? i think it depends on circumstances in each individual area.
Yes, this is my opinion. I don’t think this situation is good. Maybe because I live in a conservative area and I don’t think more and more conservative is good. The world needs balance, conservative is easy to bring the populism, which I think is bad
On October 11 2019 00:16 BisuDagger wrote: Everyone has done a pretty good job of providing discussion. In the spirit of continued discussion this has been moved to general where you are encourage to continue constructive conversations with each other.
Will TeamLiquid (and aXiomatic Gaming LLC with its controlling interest) release a statement regarding Blizzard's actions, despite potential repercussions for its players competing in future tournaments in China? The cowardice from a major profic-centric corporation (Activision Blizzard) is almost expected in longstanding corporate tradition.
The more player-facing organizations that have taken stands on social issues have less power and a lot to lose, but still must show that stuff like "TL Loves Esports, Equally" wasn't only posted because there was little backlash to fear. Does TeamLiquid still have values when it might have steep costs?
On October 10 2019 20:05 tigon_ridge wrote: When you choose to compromise your own integrity in order to appease the mob... In the long run, that will be bad for business.
I could easily replace this with "When you choose to compromise your own integrity in order to appease an incredibly sensitive authoritarian regime... In the long run, that will be bad for business"
Like seriously people. I don't get this view - it's such a bad long-term business model to subjugate yourself to China like this. Like the whole NBA thing - it was a fucking tweet. Like this huge shitstorm was caused by a god damn tweet. China has cut all official business ties with the NBA - and let me repeat this again - over a god damn tweet, in a country where people actually have freedom of speech. You will never be able to control people to that extent in a place like America, where anti-authoritarian tendencies run strong (which is great, btw, its one part of the US I appreciate a lot).
I genuinely hope that businesses start to reconsider investing in China over this shit. How are you ever going to satisfy the whims of a capricious, incredibly easily offended authoritarian regime? A regime that can, on a whim, essentially nullify any investment you've made in the country - over a god damn tweet. Like the NBA is literally going to lose hundreds of millions of dollars over a tweet from someone that they actually can't even control.
Investing hundreds of millions into a country like that just seems like bad business to me.
I feel this is a good point, relating back to the original discussion.
The NBA example being bigger than the Blizzard one, but can you even kowtow to Chinese demands realistically? It’s completely unsustainable if individuals within your organisation making their personal opinions known basically land your whole company on the hook for offended sensibilities.
I disagree with doing it on a moral level anyway, but even purely pragmatically it doesn’t seem particularly wise to pursue this course.
China if anything is getting more sensitive and more bold in recent times, rather than gradually shifting in the other direction.
This is the right point, Chinese people are way more sensitive than before, because the government tries to lead people to this direction. It’s wrong but it’s the fact. And globally, globalisation is broken, many of the major countries are becoming more conservative than before, which is not a good sign (like China US UK France Germany etc). But for the company that wants to do business with China, they have to accept this fact. They have to accept the fact that it is much easier to offend Chinese people than before, so if you want this market, you better not comment about politics (again maybe it’s wrong, but it’s the fact)
For blizzard, they of course believe stand with mainland Chinese is better than stand with protests. That’s it.
Things have shifted in meaningful political ways that much is true, although I don’t feel there’s been a shift to conservatism in the West amongst the populace’s at large.
Globalisation, or whatever you want to call it is not functioning particularly well lately, absolutely. It should be a mutual process, whereupon cultures mingle but still keep their character and distinct identity, ideas and goods are exchanged etc.
Trump’s retarded adversarial approach to China does not help either. We’ve got a ridiculous, utterly unviable ‘trade war’, which I disagree with entirely, and utterly lacking any kind of values push of any kind.
On October 11 2019 00:16 BisuDagger wrote: Everyone has done a pretty good job of providing discussion. In the spirit of continued discussion this has been moved to general where you are encourage to continue constructive conversations with each other.
Will TeamLiquid (and aXiomatic Gaming LLC with its controlling interest) release a statement regarding Blizzard's actions, despite potential repercussions for its players competing in future tournaments in China? The cowardice from a major profic-centric corporation (Activision Blizzard) is almost expected in longstanding corporate tradition.
The more player-facing organizations that have taken stands on social issues have less power and a lot to lose, but still must show that stuff like "TL Loves Esports, Equally" wasn't only posted because there was little backlash to fear. Does TeamLiquid still have values when it might have steep costs?
I don't often see myself agreeing with Danglars, but this is true and important. If organisations like TL are going to keep showing how proud they are of free speech and gay rights, then it doesn't get to just stay quiet when it could potentially have ramifications. You either stand for what you claim or you at least let us know you intend not to. I'm hoping for a TL statement sooner rather than later.
On October 10 2019 20:05 tigon_ridge wrote: When you choose to compromise your own integrity in order to appease the mob... In the long run, that will be bad for business.
I could easily replace this with "When you choose to compromise your own integrity in order to appease an incredibly sensitive authoritarian regime... In the long run, that will be bad for business"
Like seriously people. I don't get this view - it's such a bad long-term business model to subjugate yourself to China like this. Like the whole NBA thing - it was a fucking tweet. Like this huge shitstorm was caused by a god damn tweet. China has cut all official business ties with the NBA - and let me repeat this again - over a god damn tweet, in a country where people actually have freedom of speech. You will never be able to control people to that extent in a place like America, where anti-authoritarian tendencies run strong (which is great, btw, its one part of the US I appreciate a lot).
I genuinely hope that businesses start to reconsider investing in China over this shit. How are you ever going to satisfy the whims of a capricious, incredibly easily offended authoritarian regime? A regime that can, on a whim, essentially nullify any investment you've made in the country - over a god damn tweet. Like the NBA is literally going to lose hundreds of millions of dollars over a tweet from someone that they actually can't even control.
Investing hundreds of millions into a country like that just seems like bad business to me.
I feel this is a good point, relating back to the original discussion.
The NBA example being bigger than the Blizzard one, but can you even kowtow to Chinese demands realistically? It’s completely unsustainable if individuals within your organisation making their personal opinions known basically land your whole company on the hook for offended sensibilities.
I disagree with doing it on a moral level anyway, but even purely pragmatically it doesn’t seem particularly wise to pursue this course.
China if anything is getting more sensitive and more bold in recent times, rather than gradually shifting in the other direction.
This is the right point, Chinese people are way more sensitive than before, because the government tries to lead people to this direction. It’s wrong but it’s the fact. And globally, globalisation is broken, many of the major countries are becoming more conservative than before, which is not a good sign (like China US UK France Germany etc). But for the company that wants to do business with China, they have to accept this fact. They have to accept the fact that it is much easier to offend Chinese people than before, so if you want this market, you better not comment about politics (again maybe it’s wrong, but it’s the fact)
For blizzard, they of course believe stand with mainland Chinese is better than stand with protests. That’s it.
Things have shifted in meaningful political ways that much is true, although I don’t feel there’s been a shift to conservatism in the West amongst the populace’s at large.
Globalisation, or whatever you want to call it is not functioning particularly well lately, absolutely. It should be a mutual process, whereupon cultures mingle but still keep their character and distinct identity, ideas and goods are exchanged etc.
Trump’s retarded adversarial approach to China does not help either. We’ve got a ridiculous, utterly unviable ‘trade war’, which I disagree with entirely, and utterly lacking any kind of values push of any kind.
Same with the Gulf States as well.
Trump’s move is exactly what Xi wants, US now is not hypothetical enemy, it is a real enemy. and It helps Xi’s work to bring populism back, which is not good. And thought globalisation have its problems, but I think it is the right direction. I believe by connecting everyone’s interests together, everyone can accept different values and cultures, otherwise we just care about ourselves
On October 11 2019 00:16 BisuDagger wrote: Everyone has done a pretty good job of providing discussion. In the spirit of continued discussion this has been moved to general where you are encourage to continue constructive conversations with each other.
Will TeamLiquid (and aXiomatic Gaming LLC with its controlling interest) release a statement regarding Blizzard's actions, despite potential repercussions for its players competing in future tournaments in China? The cowardice from a major profic-centric corporation (Activision Blizzard) is almost expected in longstanding corporate tradition.
The more player-facing organizations that have taken stands on social issues have less power and a lot to lose, but still must show that stuff like "TL Loves Esports, Equally" wasn't only posted because there was little backlash to fear. Does TeamLiquid still have values when it might have steep costs?
I don't often see myself agreeing with Danglars, but this is true and important. If organisations like TL are going to keep showing how proud they are of free speech and gay rights, then it doesn't get to just stay quiet when it could potentially have ramifications. You either stand for what you claim or you at least let us know you intend not to. I'm hoping for a TL statement sooner rather than later.
I don’t often see myself agreeing with Danglars on many issues either, although I do find his views considered and interesting but 100% this.
I am sick to my back teeth of corporations going on about how inclusive and open they are, long after the horse has bolted and such things have entered the realm of normalcy.
While I consider TL more of a community than a corporation, I would personally like to see them take a stance on this particular issue too.
On October 10 2019 20:05 tigon_ridge wrote: When you choose to compromise your own integrity in order to appease the mob... In the long run, that will be bad for business.
I could easily replace this with "When you choose to compromise your own integrity in order to appease an incredibly sensitive authoritarian regime... In the long run, that will be bad for business"
Like seriously people. I don't get this view - it's such a bad long-term business model to subjugate yourself to China like this. Like the whole NBA thing - it was a fucking tweet. Like this huge shitstorm was caused by a god damn tweet. China has cut all official business ties with the NBA - and let me repeat this again - over a god damn tweet, in a country where people actually have freedom of speech. You will never be able to control people to that extent in a place like America, where anti-authoritarian tendencies run strong (which is great, btw, its one part of the US I appreciate a lot).
I genuinely hope that businesses start to reconsider investing in China over this shit. How are you ever going to satisfy the whims of a capricious, incredibly easily offended authoritarian regime? A regime that can, on a whim, essentially nullify any investment you've made in the country - over a god damn tweet. Like the NBA is literally going to lose hundreds of millions of dollars over a tweet from someone that they actually can't even control.
Investing hundreds of millions into a country like that just seems like bad business to me.
I feel this is a good point, relating back to the original discussion.
The NBA example being bigger than the Blizzard one, but can you even kowtow to Chinese demands realistically? It’s completely unsustainable if individuals within your organisation making their personal opinions known basically land your whole company on the hook for offended sensibilities.
I disagree with doing it on a moral level anyway, but even purely pragmatically it doesn’t seem particularly wise to pursue this course.
China if anything is getting more sensitive and more bold in recent times, rather than gradually shifting in the other direction.
This is the right point, Chinese people are way more sensitive than before, because the government tries to lead people to this direction. It’s wrong but it’s the fact. And globally, globalisation is broken, many of the major countries are becoming more conservative than before, which is not a good sign (like China US UK France Germany etc). But for the company that wants to do business with China, they have to accept this fact. They have to accept the fact that it is much easier to offend Chinese people than before, so if you want this market, you better not comment about politics (again maybe it’s wrong, but it’s the fact)
For blizzard, they of course believe stand with mainland Chinese is better than stand with protests. That’s it.
Things have shifted in meaningful political ways that much is true, although I don’t feel there’s been a shift to conservatism in the West amongst the populace’s at large.
Globalisation, or whatever you want to call it is not functioning particularly well lately, absolutely. It should be a mutual process, whereupon cultures mingle but still keep their character and distinct identity, ideas and goods are exchanged etc.
Trump’s retarded adversarial approach to China does not help either. We’ve got a ridiculous, utterly unviable ‘trade war’, which I disagree with entirely, and utterly lacking any kind of values push of any kind.
Same with the Gulf States as well.
Trump’s move is exactly what Xi wants, US now is not hypothetical enemy, it is a real enemy. and It helps Xi’s work to bring populism back, which is not good. And thought globalisation have its problems, but I think it is the right direction. I believe by connecting everyone’s interests together, everyone can accept different values and cultures, otherwise we just care about ourselves
Indeed. I don’t really see how people in such an international forum as this can really be against such a process, provided we keep aspects of our cultures and don’t become one homogenous blob.
I hope to see a much more open China truly take its place on the world stage, and get exposed to its culture as much as its electronics. I think I’ll see it before I die, but such things take time.
On October 11 2019 00:16 BisuDagger wrote: Everyone has done a pretty good job of providing discussion. In the spirit of continued discussion this has been moved to general where you are encourage to continue constructive conversations with each other.
Will TeamLiquid (and aXiomatic Gaming LLC with its controlling interest) release a statement regarding Blizzard's actions, despite potential repercussions for its players competing in future tournaments in China? The cowardice from a major profic-centric corporation (Activision Blizzard) is almost expected in longstanding corporate tradition.
The more player-facing organizations that have taken stands on social issues have less power and a lot to lose, but still must show that stuff like "TL Loves Esports, Equally" wasn't only posted because there was little backlash to fear. Does TeamLiquid still have values when it might have steep costs?
I can't speak for TeamLiquid, but the beauty of TL.net itself is that every user is empowered and encouraged to share their opinion. This includes the ability for staff to speak freely as individuals without repercussion. So you will see in other threads staff members have already taken stances based on what they believe in. That being said, not one of us holds stake in Teamliquid and therefore cannot speak on behalf of its owners. I think it's a stronger statement anyway to have staff freedom of expression versus one blanket statement that may not truly encapsulate the varied (even if similar) opinions of everyone at work here.
TLDR: Of course we love everyone, no need to beat a dead horse <3!
On October 11 2019 00:16 BisuDagger wrote: Everyone has done a pretty good job of providing discussion. In the spirit of continued discussion this has been moved to general where you are encourage to continue constructive conversations with each other.
Will TeamLiquid (and aXiomatic Gaming LLC with its controlling interest) release a statement regarding Blizzard's actions, despite potential repercussions for its players competing in future tournaments in China? The cowardice from a major profic-centric corporation (Activision Blizzard) is almost expected in longstanding corporate tradition.
The more player-facing organizations that have taken stands on social issues have less power and a lot to lose, but still must show that stuff like "TL Loves Esports, Equally" wasn't only posted because there was little backlash to fear. Does TeamLiquid still have values when it might have steep costs?
I can't speak for TeamLiquid, but the beauty of TL.net itself is that every user is empowered and encouraged to share their opinion. This includes the ability for staff to speak freely as individuals without repercussion. So you will see in other threads staff members have already taken stances based on what they believe in. The being said, not one of us holds stake in Teamliquid and therefore cannot speak on behalf of its owners. I think it's a stronger statement anyway to have staff freedom of expression versus one blanket statement that may not truly encapsulate the varied (even if similar) opinions of everyone at work here.
TLDR: Of course we love everyone, no need to beat a dead horse <3!
I agree with what you said, it’s why it’s where I spend most of my internet time, but TL has taken stances in the past and used the banner for particular causes etc.
I don't think that risk will justify reward here. Blizzard can easily stomp TL, and won't lose a significant marketshare.
I am totally confused what to think of all the SC2/WC3/WOW streamers/Casters right now. I'd love them to be able to show a reaction, but I also know that - if Activision-Blizzard bans them from streaming - they'd have to find another game or another job.
On October 11 2019 01:33 KT_Elwood wrote: I don't think that risk will justify reward here. Blizzard can easily stomp TL, and won't lose a significant marketshare.
I am totally confused what to think of all the SC2/WC3/WOW streamers/Casters right now. I'd love them to be able to show a reaction, but I also know that - if Activision-Blizzard bans them from streaming - they'd have to find another game or another job.
Activision Blizzard has become this scary.
Blizzard cant ban anyone from streaming on twitch, they don't own twitch. Blizzard also cant ban anyone from playing any of their games because they post on YT/twitch/twitter/whatever that they support the liberate HK movement.
They cant say that however on Blizzards own produced content, then they are liable to be ban. Streaming on twitch is your own content, unless you are cheating or modding in the game the only company than can ban you is twitch (because it is actually their content).
On October 11 2019 00:16 BisuDagger wrote: Everyone has done a pretty good job of providing discussion. In the spirit of continued discussion this has been moved to general where you are encourage to continue constructive conversations with each other.
Will TeamLiquid (and aXiomatic Gaming LLC with its controlling interest) release a statement regarding Blizzard's actions, despite potential repercussions for its players competing in future tournaments in China? The cowardice from a major profic-centric corporation (Activision Blizzard) is almost expected in longstanding corporate tradition.
The more player-facing organizations that have taken stands on social issues have less power and a lot to lose, but still must show that stuff like "TL Loves Esports, Equally" wasn't only posted because there was little backlash to fear. Does TeamLiquid still have values when it might have steep costs?
I don't often see myself agreeing with Danglars, but this is true and important. If organisations like TL are going to keep showing how proud they are of free speech and gay rights, then it doesn't get to just stay quiet when it could potentially have ramifications. You either stand for what you claim or you at least let us know you intend not to. I'm hoping for a TL statement sooner rather than later.
On October 11 2019 01:33 KT_Elwood wrote: I don't think that risk will justify reward here. Blizzard can easily stomp TL, and won't lose a significant marketshare.
I am totally confused what to think of all the SC2/WC3/WOW streamers/Casters right now. I'd love them to be able to show a reaction, but I also know that - if Activision-Blizzard bans them from streaming - they'd have to find another game or another job.
Activision Blizzard has become this scary.
Blizzard cant ban anyone from streaming on twitch, they don't own twitch. Blizzard also cant ban anyone from playing any of their games because they post on YT/twitch/twitter/whatever that they support the liberate HK movement.
Overwatch's Jeff Kaplan said they'd be looking on Youtube.com for people saying stuff they don't like so they can pre-emptively ban people without them ever doing anything "wrong" on BNet.
i can't get my gf to play OW with me any more... she is a libertarian and hates Kaplan so much. LOL.
On October 11 2019 01:33 KT_Elwood wrote: I don't think that risk will justify reward here. Blizzard can easily stomp TL, and won't lose a significant marketshare.
I am totally confused what to think of all the SC2/WC3/WOW streamers/Casters right now. I'd love them to be able to show a reaction, but I also know that - if Activision-Blizzard bans them from streaming - they'd have to find another game or another job.
Activision Blizzard has become this scary.
Blizzard cant ban anyone from streaming on twitch, they don't own twitch. Blizzard also cant ban anyone from playing any of their games because they post on YT/twitch/twitter/whatever that they support the liberate HK movement.
Overwatch's Jeff Kaplan said they'd be looking on Youtube.com for people saying stuff they don't like so they can pre-emptively ban people without them ever doing anything "wrong" on BNet.
On October 11 2019 01:33 KT_Elwood wrote: I don't think that risk will justify reward here. Blizzard can easily stomp TL, and won't lose a significant marketshare.
I am totally confused what to think of all the SC2/WC3/WOW streamers/Casters right now. I'd love them to be able to show a reaction, but I also know that - if Activision-Blizzard bans them from streaming - they'd have to find another game or another job.
Activision Blizzard has become this scary.
Blizzard cant ban anyone from streaming on twitch, they don't own twitch. Blizzard also cant ban anyone from playing any of their games because they post on YT/twitch/twitter/whatever that they support the liberate HK movement.
Overwatch's Jeff Kaplan said they'd be looking on Youtube.com for people saying stuff they don't like so they can pre-emptively ban people without them ever doing anything "wrong" on BNet.
Looking for what exactly?
Anything they think is inappropriate..... we just need that cackling laugh and the silhouette of a wrinkly old man. The Republican Senate is being dissolved and The Republic is becoming ... The Empire!
More seriously though, all their previous monitoring mechanisms that were used "for the good of the community" can really be used for any purpose whatsoever. If this China//HK thing is important enough they'll use whatever means are necessary I suppose.
On October 11 2019 01:33 KT_Elwood wrote: I don't think that risk will justify reward here. Blizzard can easily stomp TL, and won't lose a significant marketshare.
I am totally confused what to think of all the SC2/WC3/WOW streamers/Casters right now. I'd love them to be able to show a reaction, but I also know that - if Activision-Blizzard bans them from streaming - they'd have to find another game or another job.
Activision Blizzard has become this scary.
Blizzard cant ban anyone from streaming on twitch, they don't own twitch. Blizzard also cant ban anyone from playing any of their games because they post on YT/twitch/twitter/whatever that they support the liberate HK movement.
Overwatch's Jeff Kaplan said they'd be looking on Youtube.com for people saying stuff they don't like so they can pre-emptively ban people without them ever doing anything "wrong" on BNet.
i can't get my gf to play OW with me any more... she is a libertarian and hates Kaplan so much. LOL.
waitwaitwaitwait, that should be absolutely impossible.
Are you telling me Blizzard has a part of their EULA that says: - If you make a political statement that we don't agree with you are not allowed to play our game?
So basically as if they would make a game and say "only Trump supporters may play this game, anyone found out to not be a Trump supporter will be banned".
There just no way that is possible, they can't put having a certain opinion as a requisite for playing a game and they cant ban someone for saying their opinion. I mean they can during Blizzards own broadcasted events but they cant on youtube, thats just pure BS.
I haven't read all 22 pages in this thread but in my mind it's pretty simple. It's 100% within Blizzard's rights to ban someone in these circumstances and it's within 100% of the customer's and player's rights to boycot them for it. I would if I didn't have so much fun in WoW classic right now...
On October 11 2019 01:33 KT_Elwood wrote: I don't think that risk will justify reward here. Blizzard can easily stomp TL, and won't lose a significant marketshare.
I am totally confused what to think of all the SC2/WC3/WOW streamers/Casters right now. I'd love them to be able to show a reaction, but I also know that - if Activision-Blizzard bans them from streaming - they'd have to find another game or another job.
Activision Blizzard has become this scary.
Blizzard cant ban anyone from streaming on twitch, they don't own twitch. Blizzard also cant ban anyone from playing any of their games because they post on YT/twitch/twitter/whatever that they support the liberate HK movement.
Overwatch's Jeff Kaplan said they'd be looking on Youtube.com for people saying stuff they don't like so they can pre-emptively ban people without them ever doing anything "wrong" on BNet.
i can't get my gf to play OW with me any more... she is a libertarian and hates Kaplan so much. LOL.
waitwaitwaitwait, that should be absolutely impossible.
Are you telling me Blizzard has a part of their EULA that says: - If you make a political statement that we don't agree with you are not allowed to play our game?
So basically as if they would make a game and say "only Trump supporters may play this game, anyone found out to not be a Trump supporter will be banned".
There just no way that is possible, they can't put having a certain opinion as a requisite for playing a game and they cant ban someone for saying their opinion. I mean they can during Blizzards own broadcasted events but they cant on youtube, thats just pure BS.
Please keep in mind that this is coming from Kotaku which has its own bias. However, there is some truth in this article.
If Blizzard determines that users bringing up all the ways China has been fucking over Hong Kong for the past 20+ years is considered "toxic" I guess they can ban the users.
I'm not sure to the degree to which the China//HK conflict is true. Maybe China has been screwing over Hong Kong since 1997 .. maybe not.. I don't know enough about the topic. However, Blizzard could easily declare the entire topic "toxic" and start banning people if they want.
On October 11 2019 02:06 Longshank wrote: I haven't read all 22 pages in this thread but in my mind it's pretty simple. It's 100% within Blizzard's rights to ban someone in these circumstances and it's within 100% of the customer's and player's rights to boycot them for it. I would if I didn't have so much fun in WoW classic right now...
I don't think anyone is going to say that Blizzard doesn't have their expressed right to do this. It's clearly in the rules that it's about their own discretion for the ban. Still, the ban was incredibly excessive and outrageous. That's the point we're arguing on. Blizzard did not do this in good faith and is effectively attempting to silence those who support HK and support China's government/sovereignty.
And as a consumer, we should be the ones to take a stand against them. The Americas are still over 50% of their revenue share, we can and should make a stand and a dent into their revenue to make them realize that if they want to keep supporting China, they might as well all-in on China because Americans won't support the company anymore.
On October 11 2019 01:33 KT_Elwood wrote: I don't think that risk will justify reward here. Blizzard can easily stomp TL, and won't lose a significant marketshare.
I am totally confused what to think of all the SC2/WC3/WOW streamers/Casters right now. I'd love them to be able to show a reaction, but I also know that - if Activision-Blizzard bans them from streaming - they'd have to find another game or another job.
Activision Blizzard has become this scary.
Blizzard cant ban anyone from streaming on twitch, they don't own twitch. Blizzard also cant ban anyone from playing any of their games because they post on YT/twitch/twitter/whatever that they support the liberate HK movement.
Overwatch's Jeff Kaplan said they'd be looking on Youtube.com for people saying stuff they don't like so they can pre-emptively ban people without them ever doing anything "wrong" on BNet.
i can't get my gf to play OW with me any more... she is a libertarian and hates Kaplan so much. LOL.
waitwaitwaitwait, that should be absolutely impossible.
Are you telling me Blizzard has a part of their EULA that says: - If you make a political statement that we don't agree with you are not allowed to play our game?
So basically as if they would make a game and say "only Trump supporters may play this game, anyone found out to not be a Trump supporter will be banned".
There just no way that is possible, they can't put having a certain opinion as a requisite for playing a game and they cant ban someone for saying their opinion. I mean they can during Blizzards own broadcasted events but they cant on youtube, thats just pure BS.
Every EULA you have ever agreed to has a section that says they can ban you for any or no reason.
On October 11 2019 00:16 BisuDagger wrote: Everyone has done a pretty good job of providing discussion. In the spirit of continued discussion this has been moved to general where you are encourage to continue constructive conversations with each other.
Will TeamLiquid (and aXiomatic Gaming LLC with its controlling interest) release a statement regarding Blizzard's actions, despite potential repercussions for its players competing in future tournaments in China? The cowardice from a major profic-centric corporation (Activision Blizzard) is almost expected in longstanding corporate tradition.
The more player-facing organizations that have taken stands on social issues have less power and a lot to lose, but still must show that stuff like "TL Loves Esports, Equally" wasn't only posted because there was little backlash to fear. Does TeamLiquid still have values when it might have steep costs?
I can't speak for TeamLiquid, but the beauty of TL.net itself is that every user is empowered and encouraged to share their opinion. This includes the ability for staff to speak freely as individuals without repercussion. So you will see in other threads staff members have already taken stances based on what they believe in. The being said, not one of us holds stake in Teamliquid and therefore cannot speak on behalf of its owners. I think it's a stronger statement anyway to have staff freedom of expression versus one blanket statement that may not truly encapsulate the varied (even if similar) opinions of everyone at work here.
TLDR: Of course we love everyone, no need to beat a dead horse <3!
I respect that TL does not retaliate against staff members for stating their own view. I dislike the “repeat the company line” style organizations. It’s a credit that Victor and others doesn’t muzzle their volunteers and paid staff, and in keeping with the organization.
Now, when you have scattered individuals feeling powerless to make a difference in a big corporation, they band together to make their power felt. Boycotts are one of the primary methods employed. Make the company hurt in a way it actually feels the pain, and hopefully next time they recall wincing at the results and choose better.
Gamer-first organizations are the next step of group action. TeamLiquid is linked on official Blizzard webpages, does partnerships with Blizzard, organizes teams for many Blizzard products. What if Blizzard didn’t just crunch some numbers for potential boycotts, and estimate the days until it’ll all blow over, but also reckoned with popular organizations with a big name in their events showing they’re true to their stated values? That’s a second major PR hit.
From “TeamLiquid releases statement critical of recent Blizzard actions, says incompatible with values” to a more extreme “LiquidX team withdraws from Y competition over recent controversy,” that spectrum of possible responses shows TL is willing to do something that actually matters on gamer/caster independence and absurd censorship.
Let me play devils advocate for Blizzard. “You call us cowards. Say we aren’t committed to our corporate values. What organizations among you wouldn’t cave also? Who really has spoken up as an organization against us? Your multi-team esports organizations? No! Your gaming websites? No.They’ll let individuals speak out, but collectively won’t breathe a word. Their stands and beliefs are just as malleable as ours, so don’t come crying to us, hypocrites. None of the big sponsored orgs have done any different, and are secretly glad the pressure isn’t on them to also force an open admission.”
I’m fully aware that BisuDagger doesn’t speak for TL, and the question wondered if he knew about a coming statement. I’m using his post as a springboard for my question, and if no statement is made in the next couple of weeks, I’ll have my answer in the negative. Reminder: It was official TeamLiquid logo & Twitter & post that made the “Loves Equally,” social issue endorsement, not individual users allowed to state personal opinions.
I’m a cynical man that thinks other major organizations will stay silent, when they have an opportunity to speak out against bad corporate decisions affecting the kind of gamers they ostensibly support.
On October 10 2019 19:08 CraigWT wrote: Have you ever seen what they are doing? Hopefully you are honest about statement that you came to hk recently, the real hk is we cannot go out our living area during the weekend because of them and we barely cannot find a opening restaurant during the last weekend. They are ruining the city and most of us don’t support them. Also please visit some hk local online forums to read what we think (u can use google translate). These riots doesn’t represent hk.
Dude, do you even live in HK? How can you not find a restaurant opening in HK? There's hundred of thousands of restaurants literally crammed next to, below, on top of, within residential areas all within a tightly packed area around the area where the protestors operate and the protests occur only in localised areas. If most people in HK don't support the protesters, where exactly are these protestors coming from that are closing down every restaurant in Wan Chai and Kowloon, presuming that's where you live if you can't even go out.
On October 11 2019 00:16 BisuDagger wrote: Everyone has done a pretty good job of providing discussion. In the spirit of continued discussion this has been moved to general where you are encourage to continue constructive conversations with each other.
Will TeamLiquid (and aXiomatic Gaming LLC with its controlling interest) release a statement regarding Blizzard's actions, despite potential repercussions for its players competing in future tournaments in China? The cowardice from a major profic-centric corporation (Activision Blizzard) is almost expected in longstanding corporate tradition.
The more player-facing organizations that have taken stands on social issues have less power and a lot to lose, but still must show that stuff like "TL Loves Esports, Equally" wasn't only posted because there was little backlash to fear. Does TeamLiquid still have values when it might have steep costs?
I can't speak for TeamLiquid, but the beauty of TL.net itself is that every user is empowered and encouraged to share their opinion. This includes the ability for staff to speak freely as individuals without repercussion. So you will see in other threads staff members have already taken stances based on what they believe in. The being said, not one of us holds stake in Teamliquid and therefore cannot speak on behalf of its owners. I think it's a stronger statement anyway to have staff freedom of expression versus one blanket statement that may not truly encapsulate the varied (even if similar) opinions of everyone at work here.
TLDR: Of course we love everyone, no need to beat a dead horse <3!
I respect that TL does not retaliate against staff members for stating their own view. I dislike the “repeat the company line” style organizations. It’s a credit that Victor and others doesn’t muzzle their volunteers and paid staff, and in keeping with the organization.
Now, when you have scattered individuals feeling powerless to make a difference in a big corporation, they band together to make their power felt. Boycotts are one of the primary methods employed. Make the company hurt in a way it actually feels the pain, and hopefully next time they recall wincing at the results and choose better.
Gamer-first organizations are the next step of group action. TeamLiquid is linked on official Blizzard webpages, does partnerships with Blizzard, organizes teams for many Blizzard products. What if Blizzard didn’t just crunch some numbers for potential boycotts, and estimate the days until it’ll all blow over, but also reckoned with popular organizations with a big name in their events showing they’re true to their stated values? That’s a second major PR hit.
From “TeamLiquid releases statement critical of recent Blizzard actions, says incompatible with values” to a more extreme “LiquidX team withdraws from Y competition over recent controversy,” that spectrum of possible responses shows TL is willing to do something that actually matters on gamer/caster independence and absurd censorship.
Let me play devils advocate for Blizzard. “You call us cowards. Say we aren’t committed to our corporate values. What organizations among you wouldn’t cave also? Who really has spoken up as an organization against us? Your multi-team esports organizations? No! Your gaming websites? No.They’ll let individuals speak out, but collectively won’t breathe a word. Their stands and beliefs are just as malleable as ours, so don’t come crying to us, hypocrites. None of the big sponsored orgs have done any different, and are secretly glad the pressure isn’t on them to also force an open admission.”
I’m fully aware that BisuDagger doesn’t speak for TL, and the question wondered if he knew about a coming statement. I’m using his post as a springboard for my question, and if no statement is made in the next couple of weeks, I’ll have my answer in the negative. Reminder: It was official TeamLiquid logo & Twitter & post that made the “Loves Equally,” social issue endorsement, not individual users allowed to state personal opinions.
I’m a cynical man that thinks other major organizations will stay silent, when they have an opportunity to speak out against bad corporate decisions affecting the kind of gamers they ostensibly support.
You’re right to be cynical here, and basically right on everything else here.
TL the organisation, not TL the disparate collective made those endorsements of which you speak. Which in my opinion were easy things to do, pun/reference very much intended but changing the logo in a pro LGBT nod is very much closing the door after the horse has bolted. The right thing to do in my opinion, but not a hard thing to do.
Taking a stance and commenting on this issue is actually tough and may have ramifications down the line.
On October 11 2019 00:16 BisuDagger wrote: Everyone has done a pretty good job of providing discussion. In the spirit of continued discussion this has been moved to general where you are encourage to continue constructive conversations with each other.
Will TeamLiquid (and aXiomatic Gaming LLC with its controlling interest) release a statement regarding Blizzard's actions, despite potential repercussions for its players competing in future tournaments in China? The cowardice from a major profic-centric corporation (Activision Blizzard) is almost expected in longstanding corporate tradition.
The more player-facing organizations that have taken stands on social issues have less power and a lot to lose, but still must show that stuff like "TL Loves Esports, Equally" wasn't only posted because there was little backlash to fear. Does TeamLiquid still have values when it might have steep costs?
I can't speak for TeamLiquid, but the beauty of TL.net itself is that every user is empowered and encouraged to share their opinion. This includes the ability for staff to speak freely as individuals without repercussion. So you will see in other threads staff members have already taken stances based on what they believe in. The being said, not one of us holds stake in Teamliquid and therefore cannot speak on behalf of its owners. I think it's a stronger statement anyway to have staff freedom of expression versus one blanket statement that may not truly encapsulate the varied (even if similar) opinions of everyone at work here.
TLDR: Of course we love everyone, no need to beat a dead horse <3!
I respect that TL does not retaliate against staff members for stating their own view. I dislike the “repeat the company line” style organizations. It’s a credit that Victor and others doesn’t muzzle their volunteers and paid staff, and in keeping with the organization.
Now, when you have scattered individuals feeling powerless to make a difference in a big corporation, they band together to make their power felt. Boycotts are one of the primary methods employed. Make the company hurt in a way it actually feels the pain, and hopefully next time they recall wincing at the results and choose better.
Gamer-first organizations are the next step of group action. TeamLiquid is linked on official Blizzard webpages, does partnerships with Blizzard, organizes teams for many Blizzard products. What if Blizzard didn’t just crunch some numbers for potential boycotts, and estimate the days until it’ll all blow over, but also reckoned with popular organizations with a big name in their events showing they’re true to their stated values? That’s a second major PR hit.
From “TeamLiquid releases statement critical of recent Blizzard actions, says incompatible with values” to a more extreme “LiquidX team withdraws from Y competition over recent controversy,” that spectrum of possible responses shows TL is willing to do something that actually matters on gamer/caster independence and absurd censorship.
Let me play devils advocate for Blizzard. “You call us cowards. Say we aren’t committed to our corporate values. What organizations among you wouldn’t cave also? Who really has spoken up as an organization against us? Your multi-team esports organizations? No! Your gaming websites? No.They’ll let individuals speak out, but collectively won’t breathe a word. Their stands and beliefs are just as malleable as ours, so don’t come crying to us, hypocrites. None of the big sponsored orgs have done any different, and are secretly glad the pressure isn’t on them to also force an open admission.”
I’m fully aware that BisuDagger doesn’t speak for TL, and the question wondered if he knew about a coming statement. I’m using his post as a springboard for my question, and if no statement is made in the next couple of weeks, I’ll have my answer in the negative. Reminder: It was official TeamLiquid logo & Twitter & post that made the “Loves Equally,” social issue endorsement, not individual users allowed to state personal opinions.
I’m a cynical man that thinks other major organizations will stay silent, when they have an opportunity to speak out against bad corporate decisions affecting the kind of gamers they ostensibly support.
You’re right to be cynical here, and basically right on everything else here.
TL the organisation, not TL the disparate collective made those endorsements of which you speak. Which in my opinion were easy things to do, pun/reference very much intended but changing the logo in a pro LGBT nod is very much closing the door after the horse has bolted. The right thing to do in my opinion, but not a hard thing to do.
Taking a stance and commenting on this issue is actually tough and may have ramifications down the line.
If you are pro LGBT and you want Chinese money, then I may have some bad news for you.
I think part of the reason this is blowing up is because people are starting to see just how scary China is becoming. At least I hope they do.
What's amazing is that the country can be so oppressive but also stable and growing economically. I wonder and worry about how long it will last. I couldn't imagine having to life a lie my whole life just so I won't be persecuted by the government.
On October 11 2019 04:07 travis wrote: I think part of the reason this is blowing up is because people are starting to see just how scary China is becoming. At least I hope they do.
What's amazing is that the country can be so oppressive but also stable and growing economically. I wonder and worry about how long it will last. I couldn't imagine having to life a lie my whole life just so I won't be persecuted by the government.
Well, I mean Nazi Germany (at least on the surface) grew economically as well. One of the reason they had so much support was because the people who were left were doing pretty well compared to the aftermath of ww1.
The biggest difference today is that the growth is more actual rather than based on borrowed time, and the state-capitalistic grasp has somehow managed to embrace the rest of the world with it.
On October 11 2019 04:07 travis wrote: I think part of the reason this is blowing up is because people are starting to see just how scary China is becoming. At least I hope they do.
What's amazing is that the country can be so oppressive but also stable and growing economically. I wonder and worry about how long it will last. I couldn't imagine having to life a lie my whole life just so I won't be persecuted by the government.
Well, I mean Nazi Germany (at least on the surface) grew economically as well. One of the reason they had so much support was because the people who were left were doing pretty well compared to the aftermath of ww1.
The biggest difference today is that the growth is more actual rather than based on borrowed time, and the state-capitalistic grasp has somehow managed to embrace the rest of the world with it.
For the average person if the system is on borrowed time and crashes after improving your standard of living by 500% it still worked. If it then drops to only a temporary improvement of 200% until it goes back up, it still worked. Even if you change currency and default on all loans to fix it the buildings, infrastructure and societal structure built up is still there to recover from.
If they are willing to gouge the people that has become rich from being CEO of the state run companies (most of them) the average people won't feel the crunch nearly as much as the economy as a whole.
I see that a lot of people seem to care or pretend to care about this, so I'll tell you briefly what is actually happening.
China and the US are the two most powerful countries in the world and there is an ongoing battle for power. The US exploited China to grow their economy profiting from the "evil" communism where labor was cheap. However, the US obviously understands that this is symbiotic relationship whereby China will expand their economy very fast given the US investments, so they need to plan in advance. Religion was already used to death in middle ages, nationalism had been used since French revolution till WW2/Nazi party, so the next ideological tool that hey had was liberalism. Liberalism here means mainly "freedom", but freedom doesn't exist when you're part of a society as you have to give up a good amount of freedom, which is fine. Because freedom is not synonymous with happiness. This is not a concept that the typical modern western person will understand, because they're not supposed to. What you're supposed to understand is that freedom is good and America is freedom. This is of course not true, and there are multiple varieties of freedom, but I don't expect many of you to understand this kind of stuff, cause that's literally not your role--your role is to propagate propaganda, and this is antithetical to critical thinking.
Anyway, moving on. West brainwashed the west with liberalism aka american-flavored freedom, while China brainwashed the Chinese with collectivism and Chinese-flavored freedom. Both think they're free; neither are free. Nobody is free. Now what's happening in Hong Kong is simply a battle between US and China. The HK people started the riots, but it's long since the HK riot is actually Hong Kong. The riots now are US-sponsored "pro-democracy" professional rioters and "NGOs" taking the riots well outside of the interests of HK (liberate Hong Kong is literally Western propaganda and not the purpose of the revolution.) No one cares about Hong Kong at this point; it's the US trying to get at China, and China knows it. In response to this, China attacks the US corporations whose existence is reliant on Chinese economy. One of the casualties happen to be Blizzard, which is what the thread is about.
Blizzard is irrelevant in the larger picture, of course. They're just a random computer games company that was sacrificed in the US vs China international political war. Blizzard doesn't have a choice here because they play by the rules that the US set; namely, you have to expand in China if you want to stay in business. Blizzard is a casualty that is now used by the US as ammunition to get all brainwashed liberals in arms. Everyone has already been prepared for this to strongly believe that China is bad; there's no question among Americans, because the people don't ask questions, they just react. So Blizzard is further exploited by the media to further propagate the anti-China propaganda and help US-China international relations in favor of the US as China is now strong enough to reject the restrictions that the US wants to impose.
US is highly dependent on China. Chinese Tencent owns 5 percent of Blizzard, if full owner of Riot Games, 48% of Epic Games, 11.5% of Bluehole (Fortnite and PUBG), 5% of Ubisoft. They are also investor in Discord. AMC is fully owned by Chinese. The largest movie theater chain in the United States is fully owned by Chinese. Legendary Entertainment Group is owned by Chinese. Forbes Media sold majority stake to Chinese company.
This is simply a political war, and every one of you are used as pawns. Hong Kong is a pawn, gamers are another pawn, everyone is just playing the game designed by those two powers.
Reality is, if you care to know, freedom doesn't exist. The lower class is not affected by the flavor of democracy. For most people, it doesn't matter if they're allowed to criticize gay people, the government, or sexists. These are all manufactured overblown issues to get people to focus on superficial differences to weaponize their ideologies. People want to be happy, they want food, a career, etc. But that's not enough for rulers because they need their population to be angry against their enemies because the rich have not finished getting richer, and they need you. Democracy is a highly flawed political regime that you're not allowed to criticize because it benefits the rulers. The many are the easiest to manipulate as you can see (or you cannot see) in this thread, in news, in any forum, on Reddit, on anything. The exact same thing happened in history at all times: crusaders thought they were fighting the holy wars, Islam thought they were fighting for the Qu'ran, Nazis thought they were fighting for purity, Soviets thought they were fighting for equality, Spartans thought they were fighting for spirit, French thought they were fighting for liberté, égalité, fraternité.
Now Americans will think they're fighting for freedom.
The truth is that this is not your war, you don't understand what you're fighting, there is no moral superiority, there is no freedom, no right, no good out of this.
On October 11 2019 04:50 forgotmyaccount wrote: I see that a lot of people seem to care or pretend to care about this, so I'll tell you briefly what is actually happening.
China and the US are the two most powerful countries in the world and there is an ongoing battle for power. The US exploited China to grow their economy profiting from the "evil" communism where labor was cheap. However, the US obviously understands that this is symbiotic relationship whereby China will expand their economy very fast given the US investments, so they need to plan in advance. Religion was already used to death in middle ages, nationalism had been used since French revolution till WW2/Nazi party, so the next ideological tool that hey had was liberalism. Liberalism here means mainly "freedom", but freedom doesn't exist when you're part of a society as you have to give up a good amount of freedom, which is fine. Because freedom is not synonymous with happiness. This is not a concept that the typical modern western person will understand, because they're not supposed to. What you're supposed to understand is that freedom is good and America is freedom. This is of course not true, and there are multiple varieties of freedom, but I don't expect many of you to understand this kind of stuff, cause that's literally not your role--your role is to propagate propaganda, and this is antithetical to critical thinking.
Anyway, moving on. West brainwashed the west with liberalism aka american-flavored freedom, while China brainwashed the Chinese with collectivism and Chinese-flavored freedom. Both think they're free; neither are free. Nobody is free. Now what's happening in Hong Kong is simply a battle between US and China. The HK people started the riots, but it's long since the HK riot is actually Hong Kong. The riots now are US-sponsored "pro-democracy" professional rioters and "NGOs" taking the riots well outside of the interests of HK (liberate Hong Kong is literally Western propaganda and not the purpose of the revolution.) No one cares about Hong Kong at this point; it's the US trying to get at China, and China knows it. In response to this, China attacks the US corporations whose existence is reliant on Chinese economy. One of the casualties happen to be Blizzard, which is what the thread is about.
Blizzard is irrelevant in the larger picture, of course. They're just a random computer games company that was sacrificed in the US vs China international political war. Blizzard doesn't have a choice here because they play by the rules that the US set; namely, you have to expand in China if you want to stay in business. Blizzard is a casualty that is now used by the US as ammunition to get all brainwashed liberals in arms. Everyone has already been prepared for this to strongly believe that China is bad; there's no question among Americans, because the people don't ask questions, they just react. So Blizzard is further exploited by the media to further propagate the anti-China propaganda and help US-China international relations in favor of the US as China is now strong enough to reject the restrictions that the US wants to impose.
US is highly dependent on China. Chinese Tencent owns 5 percent of Blizzard, if full owner of Riot Games, 48% of Epic Games, 11.5% of Bluehole (Fortnite and PUBG), 5% of Ubisoft. They are also investor in Discord. AMC is fully owned by Chinese. The largest movie theater chain in the United States is fully owned by Chinese. Legendary Entertainment Group is owned by Chinese. Forbes Media sold majority stake to Chinese company.
This is simply a political war, and every one of you are used as pawns. Hong Kong is a pawn, gamers are another pawn, everyone is just playing the game designed by those two powers.
Reality is, if you care to know, freedom doesn't exist. The lower class is not affected by the flavor of democracy. For most people, it doesn't matter if they're allowed to criticize gay people, the government, or sexists. These are all manufactured overblown issues to get people to focus on superficial differences to weaponize their ideologies. People want to be happy, they want food, a career, etc. But that's not enough for rulers because they need their population to be angry against their enemies because the rich have not finished getting richer, and they need you. Democracy is a highly flawed political regime that you're not allowed to criticize because it benefits the rulers. The many are the easiest to manipulate as you can see (or you cannot see) in this thread, in news, in any forum, on Reddit, on anything. The exact same thing happened in history at all times: crusaders thought they were fighting the holy wars, Islam thought they were fighting for the Qu'ran, Nazis thought they were fighting for purity, Soviets thought they were fighting for equality, Spartans thought they were fighting for spirit, French thought they were fighting for liberté, égalité, fraternité.
Now Americans will think they're fighting for freedom.
The truth is that this is not your war, you don't understand what you're fighting, there is no moral superiority, there is no freedom, no right, no good out of this.
Enjoy being mad at Blizzard
I think your cynical view on things does neither cover all of reality or does it pretty accurate in the details you mention. There are values to freedom, even if every choice in life indeed comes with consequences that maybe make you think you never can really be free.
Hong Kong protest started to fight a very direct threat. The possibility to be "abducted" to china. They reacted to that threat. Like you would react if somebody is about to punch you in the face. You don't think about the greater picture (yeah you die anyway, why dodge, run or fight back, roll over and get punched).
To get on with the discussion:
Here is a link to a list of companies that "bend the knee" - when and how.
On October 11 2019 01:33 KT_Elwood wrote: I don't think that risk will justify reward here. Blizzard can easily stomp TL, and won't lose a significant marketshare.
I am totally confused what to think of all the SC2/WC3/WOW streamers/Casters right now. I'd love them to be able to show a reaction, but I also know that - if Activision-Blizzard bans them from streaming - they'd have to find another game or another job.
Activision Blizzard has become this scary.
Blizzard cant ban anyone from streaming on twitch, they don't own twitch. Blizzard also cant ban anyone from playing any of their games because they post on YT/twitch/twitter/whatever that they support the liberate HK movement.
Overwatch's Jeff Kaplan said they'd be looking on Youtube.com for people saying stuff they don't like so they can pre-emptively ban people without them ever doing anything "wrong" on BNet.
i can't get my gf to play OW with me any more... she is a libertarian and hates Kaplan so much. LOL.
waitwaitwaitwait, that should be absolutely impossible.
Are you telling me Blizzard has a part of their EULA that says: - If you make a political statement that we don't agree with you are not allowed to play our game?
So basically as if they would make a game and say "only Trump supporters may play this game, anyone found out to not be a Trump supporter will be banned".
There just no way that is possible, they can't put having a certain opinion as a requisite for playing a game and they cant ban someone for saying their opinion. I mean they can during Blizzards own broadcasted events but they cant on youtube, thats just pure BS.
Please keep in mind that this is coming from Kotaku which has its own bias. However, there is some truth in this article.
If Blizzard determines that users bringing up all the ways China has been fucking over Hong Kong for the past 20+ years is considered "toxic" I guess they can ban the users.
I'm not sure to the degree to which the China//HK conflict is true. Maybe China has been screwing over Hong Kong since 1997 .. maybe not.. I don't know enough about the topic. However, Blizzard could easily declare the entire topic "toxic" and start banning people if they want.
Thank you for the link, it made it much clearer to me.
I don't believe it is written anywhere that this has anything to do with saying stuff about political views. The way I interpret this is that if they watcha a youtube video were player x is toxic, for example telling someone else they are a "Insert aggresive offensive language here" then Blizz can ban them that player from the game.
That would be totally in their own right since the player was toxic in their game towards other players. Nothing makes me think they are talking about political standpoints here. Its as if Blizz would read the "hilarious BM thread" here on TL and ban the players that were toxic, not a bad idea tbh.
On October 11 2019 01:33 KT_Elwood wrote: I don't think that risk will justify reward here. Blizzard can easily stomp TL, and won't lose a significant marketshare.
I am totally confused what to think of all the SC2/WC3/WOW streamers/Casters right now. I'd love them to be able to show a reaction, but I also know that - if Activision-Blizzard bans them from streaming - they'd have to find another game or another job.
Activision Blizzard has become this scary.
Blizzard cant ban anyone from streaming on twitch, they don't own twitch. Blizzard also cant ban anyone from playing any of their games because they post on YT/twitch/twitter/whatever that they support the liberate HK movement.
Overwatch's Jeff Kaplan said they'd be looking on Youtube.com for people saying stuff they don't like so they can pre-emptively ban people without them ever doing anything "wrong" on BNet.
i can't get my gf to play OW with me any more... she is a libertarian and hates Kaplan so much. LOL.
waitwaitwaitwait, that should be absolutely impossible.
Are you telling me Blizzard has a part of their EULA that says: - If you make a political statement that we don't agree with you are not allowed to play our game?
So basically as if they would make a game and say "only Trump supporters may play this game, anyone found out to not be a Trump supporter will be banned".
There just no way that is possible, they can't put having a certain opinion as a requisite for playing a game and they cant ban someone for saying their opinion. I mean they can during Blizzards own broadcasted events but they cant on youtube, thats just pure BS.
Every EULA you have ever agreed to has a section that says they can ban you for any or no reason.
Even if true they cant act on such a EULA. Sorry but I payed for a product, there are multiple ways gaming companies have done business in ways that are not legal. Not taking any refunds was one of them, that went all the way in the courts and Steam was forced to offer refunds. If game companies would start banning people for their political or private opinions, lets just say that would go into the courts and it would not look pretty.
On October 11 2019 04:50 forgotmyaccount wrote: I see that a lot of people seem to care or pretend to care about this, so I'll tell you briefly what is actually happening.
China and the US are the two most powerful countries in the world and there is an ongoing battle for power. The US exploited China to grow their economy profiting from the "evil" communism where labor was cheap. However, the US obviously understands that this is symbiotic relationship whereby China will expand their economy very fast given the US investments, so they need to plan in advance. Religion was already used to death in middle ages, nationalism had been used since French revolution till WW2/Nazi party, so the next ideological tool that hey had was liberalism. Liberalism here means mainly "freedom", but freedom doesn't exist when you're part of a society as you have to give up a good amount of freedom, which is fine. Because freedom is not synonymous with happiness. This is not a concept that the typical modern western person will understand, because they're not supposed to. What you're supposed to understand is that freedom is good and America is freedom. This is of course not true, and there are multiple varieties of freedom, but I don't expect many of you to understand this kind of stuff, cause that's literally not your role--your role is to propagate propaganda, and this is antithetical to critical thinking.
Anyway, moving on. West brainwashed the west with liberalism aka american-flavored freedom, while China brainwashed the Chinese with collectivism and Chinese-flavored freedom. Both think they're free; neither are free. Nobody is free. Now what's happening in Hong Kong is simply a battle between US and China. The HK people started the riots, but it's long since the HK riot is actually Hong Kong. The riots now are US-sponsored "pro-democracy" professional rioters and "NGOs" taking the riots well outside of the interests of HK (liberate Hong Kong is literally Western propaganda and not the purpose of the revolution.) No one cares about Hong Kong at this point; it's the US trying to get at China, and China knows it. In response to this, China attacks the US corporations whose existence is reliant on Chinese economy. One of the casualties happen to be Blizzard, which is what the thread is about.
Blizzard is irrelevant in the larger picture, of course. They're just a random computer games company that was sacrificed in the US vs China international political war. Blizzard doesn't have a choice here because they play by the rules that the US set; namely, you have to expand in China if you want to stay in business. Blizzard is a casualty that is now used by the US as ammunition to get all brainwashed liberals in arms. Everyone has already been prepared for this to strongly believe that China is bad; there's no question among Americans, because the people don't ask questions, they just react. So Blizzard is further exploited by the media to further propagate the anti-China propaganda and help US-China international relations in favor of the US as China is now strong enough to reject the restrictions that the US wants to impose.
US is highly dependent on China. Chinese Tencent owns 5 percent of Blizzard, if full owner of Riot Games, 48% of Epic Games, 11.5% of Bluehole (Fortnite and PUBG), 5% of Ubisoft. They are also investor in Discord. AMC is fully owned by Chinese. The largest movie theater chain in the United States is fully owned by Chinese. Legendary Entertainment Group is owned by Chinese. Forbes Media sold majority stake to Chinese company.
This is simply a political war, and every one of you are used as pawns. Hong Kong is a pawn, gamers are another pawn, everyone is just playing the game designed by those two powers.
Reality is, if you care to know, freedom doesn't exist. The lower class is not affected by the flavor of democracy. For most people, it doesn't matter if they're allowed to criticize gay people, the government, or sexists. These are all manufactured overblown issues to get people to focus on superficial differences to weaponize their ideologies. People want to be happy, they want food, a career, etc. But that's not enough for rulers because they need their population to be angry against their enemies because the rich have not finished getting richer, and they need you. Democracy is a highly flawed political regime that you're not allowed to criticize because it benefits the rulers. The many are the easiest to manipulate as you can see (or you cannot see) in this thread, in news, in any forum, on Reddit, on anything. The exact same thing happened in history at all times: crusaders thought they were fighting the holy wars, Islam thought they were fighting for the Qu'ran, Nazis thought they were fighting for purity, Soviets thought they were fighting for equality, Spartans thought they were fighting for spirit, French thought they were fighting for liberté, égalité, fraternité.
Now Americans will think they're fighting for freedom.
The truth is that this is not your war, you don't understand what you're fighting, there is no moral superiority, there is no freedom, no right, no good out of this.
Enjoy being mad at Blizzard
I think your cynical view on things does neither cover all of reality or does it pretty accurate in the details you mention. There are values to freedom, even if every choice in life indeed comes with consequences that maybe make you think you never can really be free.
Hong Kong protest started to fight a very direct threat. The possibility to be "abducted" to china. They reacted to that threat. Like you would react if somebody is about to punch you in the face. You don't think about the greater picture (yeah you die anyway, why dodge, run or fight back, roll over and get punched).
To get on with the discussion:
Here is a link to a list of companies that "bend the knee" - when and how.
Thanks for the link. Some of these are more egregious than others, but it will generally function as a list of companies I will no longer do any business with (Not that I, a small single man, is going to make much of an impact on my own of course. But it would be cool if this spread and more people chose to follow the same route)
Politics ruin sports and any sense of a SC community. Politics promotes tribalism. Let's keep politics far away from any and all sports, so we can still have something in this world were we can forget our tribal differences. I support Blizzard's decision to keep politics out of their games.
On October 11 2019 01:33 KT_Elwood wrote: I don't think that risk will justify reward here. Blizzard can easily stomp TL, and won't lose a significant marketshare.
I am totally confused what to think of all the SC2/WC3/WOW streamers/Casters right now. I'd love them to be able to show a reaction, but I also know that - if Activision-Blizzard bans them from streaming - they'd have to find another game or another job.
Activision Blizzard has become this scary.
Blizzard cant ban anyone from streaming on twitch, they don't own twitch. Blizzard also cant ban anyone from playing any of their games because they post on YT/twitch/twitter/whatever that they support the liberate HK movement.
Overwatch's Jeff Kaplan said they'd be looking on Youtube.com for people saying stuff they don't like so they can pre-emptively ban people without them ever doing anything "wrong" on BNet.
i can't get my gf to play OW with me any more... she is a libertarian and hates Kaplan so much. LOL.
waitwaitwaitwait, that should be absolutely impossible.
Are you telling me Blizzard has a part of their EULA that says: - If you make a political statement that we don't agree with you are not allowed to play our game?
So basically as if they would make a game and say "only Trump supporters may play this game, anyone found out to not be a Trump supporter will be banned".
There just no way that is possible, they can't put having a certain opinion as a requisite for playing a game and they cant ban someone for saying their opinion. I mean they can during Blizzards own broadcasted events but they cant on youtube, thats just pure BS.
Every EULA you have ever agreed to has a section that says they can ban you for any or no reason.
Even if true they cant act on such a EULA. Sorry but I payed for a product, there are multiple ways gaming companies have done business in ways that are not legal. Not taking any refunds was one of them, that went all the way in the courts and Steam was forced to offer refunds. If game companies would start banning people for their political or private opinions, lets just say that would go into the courts and it would not look pretty.
Correct. EULAs are not legally binding in court whatsoever. They're, in fact, practically useless. But more importantly, the fact that a company can ban you for no reason is not the same as being banned for any reason. They are, technically, allowed to, but we as people don't need to sit back and accept them for doing so.
On October 11 2019 05:35 Xlancer wrote: Politics ruin sports and any sense of a SC community. Politics promotes tribalism. Let's keep politics far away from any and all sports, so we can still have something in this world were we can forget our tribal differences. I support Blizzard's decision to keep politics out of their games.
Please. Sports and politics have gone hand in hand since the dawn of..well, sports. Blizzard didn't make a decision to keep politics out of their game, they made a blatant decision to support China. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense to dish out such an insanely harsh punishment, fire the casters, and then release an official message to trough the Chinese equivalent of Twitter that they are going to "Defend the Chinese people".
This isn't Blizzard being apolitical, it's Blizzard taking a stance against Hong Kong.
On October 10 2019 20:05 tigon_ridge wrote: When you choose to compromise your own integrity in order to appease the mob... In the long run, that will be bad for business.
I could easily replace this with "When you choose to compromise your own integrity in order to appease an incredibly sensitive authoritarian regime... In the long run, that will be bad for business"
Like seriously people. I don't get this view - it's such a bad long-term business model to subjugate yourself to China like this. Like the whole NBA thing - it was a fucking tweet. Like this huge shitstorm was caused by a god damn tweet. China has cut all official business ties with the NBA - and let me repeat this again - over a god damn tweet, in a country where people actually have freedom of speech. You will never be able to control people to that extent in a place like America, where anti-authoritarian tendencies run strong (which is great, btw, its one part of the US I appreciate a lot).
I genuinely hope that businesses start to reconsider investing in China over this shit. How are you ever going to satisfy the whims of a capricious, incredibly easily offended authoritarian regime? A regime that can, on a whim, essentially nullify any investment you've made in the country - over a god damn tweet. Like the NBA is literally going to lose hundreds of millions of dollars over a tweet from someone that they actually can't even control.
Investing hundreds of millions into a country like that just seems like bad business to me.
Amen. If my comment wasn't clear, by "mob" I definitely meant the chinese communist party. I mean, they're no longer squishing completely innocent protesters with tanks, so I guess that's progress. Last I checked, they also stopped destroying artifacts and buildings that are remnants of their long history and culture. Progress. Still, this regime has an extremely long way to go before I would consider it a legitimate government.
Every time I hear a caster use the term "chinese taipei" to refer to Taiwan, I'm like -_-... lol But it's so obvious that strings are being pulled. It would be great if both Taiwan and HK could acquire nukes, and tell the mainland regime to screw off. Nothing but a big bully that doesn't understand how precarious their political and economic standings are, once the world finally decides it's had enough of their crap.
On October 11 2019 05:37 Excludos wrote: This isn't Blizzard being apolitical, it's Blizzard taking a stance against Hong Kong.
nah, I don't think Blizzard is "for" or "against" Hong Kong. They are parroting some words to protect a revenue stream in a massive consumer market. China and Hong Kong are not cultures and countries in the eyes of Blizzard. China and Hong Kong are revenue and profit sources.
Likewise, I do not think Blizzard is "for" or "against" homosexuality. They do their gay pride celebrations in countries where it is politically expedient to do so. They are silent in countries where they deem it too controversial to bring up.
On October 11 2019 05:37 Excludos wrote: This isn't Blizzard being apolitical, it's Blizzard taking a stance against Hong Kong.
nah, I don't think Blizzard is "for" or "against" Hong Kong. They are parroting some words to protect a revenue stream in a massive consumer market. + Show Spoiler +
China and Hong Kong are not cultures and countries in the eyes of Blizzard. China and Hong Kong are revenue and profit sources.
Likewise, I do not think Blizzard is "for" or "against" homosexuality. They do their gay pride celebrations in countries where it is politically expedient to do so. They are silent in countries where they deem it too controversial to bring up.
Of course they are not communists by heart, but that does not matter. They have become an proxy-executor for chinese propaganda.
On October 11 2019 05:37 Excludos wrote: This isn't Blizzard being apolitical, it's Blizzard taking a stance against Hong Kong.
nah, I don't think Blizzard is "for" or "against" Hong Kong. They are parroting some words to protect a revenue stream in a massive consumer market. + Show Spoiler +
China and Hong Kong are not cultures and countries in the eyes of Blizzard. China and Hong Kong are revenue and profit sources.
Likewise, I do not think Blizzard is "for" or "against" homosexuality. They do their gay pride celebrations in countries where it is politically expedient to do so. They are silent in countries where they deem it too controversial to bring up.
Of course they are not communists by heart, but that does not matter. They have become an proxy-executor for chinese propaganda.
nah, Blizzard keeps things really slippery and vague. They do not get involved in the Hong Kong//China disagreement over how extradition should work. Blizzard just said what the player did was "offensive". They didn't get into any details. Blizzard keeps things really slippery and vague. Blizzard wants to sell video games to both sides of any political debate.
I can tell you what their next move probably will be. Blizzard will release some vague general statement about how much they love both Hong Kong and China and they want to see both countries work together better. Such harmony will improve the whole wide world and make the whole world a better place!
i'm feeling warm and fuzzy just typing out this drivel.
Likewise, Blizzard is probably "pro abortion" and "pro transgender rights". They'll never delve into the details of how this impacts the Vancouver Rape Crisis Centre though. Blizzard keeps everything really vague.
On October 10 2019 19:08 CraigWT wrote: Have you ever seen what they are doing? Hopefully you are honest about statement that you came to hk recently, the real hk is we cannot go out our living area during the weekend because of them and we barely cannot find a opening restaurant during the last weekend. They are ruining the city and most of us don’t support them. Also please visit some hk local online forums to read what we think (u can use google translate). These riots doesn’t represent hk.
Dude, do you even live in HK? How can you not find a restaurant opening in HK? There's hundred of thousands of restaurants literally crammed next to, below, on top of, within residential areas all within a tightly packed area around the area where the protestors operate and the protests occur only in localised areas. If most people in HK don't support the protesters, where exactly are these protestors coming from that are closing down every restaurant in Wan Chai and Kowloon, presuming that's where you live if you can't even go out.
Please come to hk during the weekend and see if you can easily find open restaurant for dinner in major HK island area (Central to Causeway bay) and major Kowloon area (TST to Mongkok). Please don’t believe your own imagination
This is sad and scary :/ That an American company would actively censor political speech on behalf of a murderous one-party regime does not bode well for the future. The political systems in Europe and America are not well equipped to deal with corporations stifling freedom of expression/religion/thought etc because it has not been particularly relevant. But now that there is an increasingly large amount of money to be made by actively suppressing speech the communist party finds objectionably it seems like we as citizens will find ourselves censored not by our governments, but by the private organisations that increasingly run all societal infrastructure. Chinese companies operate trains throughout Europe, how long until wearing the wrong kind of t-shirt will get you kicked off one? "It's a private company, take your business elsewhere"
I oppose tech corporations censoring political speech. All that is needed is a disclaimer that the views of whoever speaks do not necessarily reflect the views of the tech corporation.
On October 11 2019 09:50 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: I oppose tech corporations censoring political speech. All that is needed is a disclaimer that the views of whoever speaks do not necessarily reflect the views of the tech corporation.
I think the current extreme political repression practiced by China on Uyghur minorities, and the political and legislative violence done to Hong Kong society rise to a level that all decent people should condemn unanimously. I, however, don't think the logic applies to absolutely all forms of political expression done in a tournament put on by private companies. Neo nazi sentiment in European far right, or from Iran to torture and burn all homosexuals, or LaRouche's eating the babies will not and should not inspire outrage if statements are censored in video or interview. Organizers, participants, and sponsors have the better standing in that case.
On October 11 2019 09:41 KlaCkoN wrote: This is sad and scary :/ That an American company would actively censor political speech on behalf of a murderous one-party regime does not bode well for the future. The political systems in Europe and America are not well equipped to deal with corporations stifling freedom of expression/religion/thought etc because it has not been particularly relevant. But now that there is an increasingly large amount of money to be made by actively suppressing speech the communist party finds objectionably it seems like we as citizens will find ourselves censored not by our governments, but by the private organisations that increasingly run all societal infrastructure. Chinese companies operate trains throughout Europe, how long until wearing the wrong kind of t-shirt will get you kicked off one? "It's a private company, take your business elsewhere"
This is the cruz of the issue. The Chinese authoritarian regime headed by Xi Jinping is notoriously petty and vengeful. His nonsensical reactions should be roundly ridiculed by everybody. But the might of the chinese economy and economic relations, and his willingness to go full crazy, makes everyone step carefully (sadly). He's empowered by every incremental level of bullshit he pays no real consequence for.
I still am angry at how few major organizations have stood up for the gamer & casters. China gets away with this bullshit precisely because how few organizations (like TeamLiquid, at this moment) are willing to stand for the little guy against the powerful. Maybe they're banned from a major tournament, or maybe some players or associates (or infamously their families) will suddenly have visa issues or banking issues.
Hong Kong is just today's major example of where the rubber hits the road. What newfound outrage will the Chinese Party of China feel more free to adopt, when literal state violence against a protest movement doesn't inspire solidarity? Maybe the rest of the world needs to see another Tiananmen Square example before they find their spines.
On October 11 2019 09:50 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: I oppose tech corporations censoring political speech. All that is needed is a disclaimer that the views of whoever speaks do not necessarily reflect the views of the tech corporation.
I think the current extreme political repression practiced by China on Uyghur minorities, and the political and legislative violence done to Hong Kong society rise to a level that all decent people should condemn unanimously. I, however, don't think the logic applies to absolutely all forms of political expression done in a tournament put on by private companies. Neo nazi sentiment in European far right, or from Iran to torture and burn all homosexuals, or LaRouche's eating the babies will not and should not inspire outrage if statements are censored in video or interview. Organizers, participants, and sponsors have the better standing in that case.
On October 11 2019 09:41 KlaCkoN wrote: This is sad and scary :/ That an American company would actively censor political speech on behalf of a murderous one-party regime does not bode well for the future. The political systems in Europe and America are not well equipped to deal with corporations stifling freedom of expression/religion/thought etc because it has not been particularly relevant. But now that there is an increasingly large amount of money to be made by actively suppressing speech the communist party finds objectionably it seems like we as citizens will find ourselves censored not by our governments, but by the private organisations that increasingly run all societal infrastructure. Chinese companies operate trains throughout Europe, how long until wearing the wrong kind of t-shirt will get you kicked off one? "It's a private company, take your business elsewhere"
This is the cruz of the issue. The Chinese authoritarian regime headed by Xi Jinping is notoriously petty and vengeful. His nonsensical reactions should be roundly ridiculed by everybody. But the might of the chinese economy and economic relations, and his willingness to go full crazy, makes everyone step carefully (sadly). He's empowered by every incremental level of bullshit he pays no real consequence for.
I still am angry at how few major organizations have stood up for the gamer & casters. China gets away with this bullshit precisely because how few organizations (like TeamLiquid, at this moment) are willing to stand for the little guy against the powerful. Maybe they're banned from a major tournament, or maybe some players or associates (or infamously their families) will suddenly have visa issues or banking issues.
Hong Kong is just today's major example of where the rubber hits the road. What newfound outrage will the Chinese Party of China feel more free to adopt, when literal state violence against a protest movement doesn't inspire solidarity? Maybe the rest of the world needs to see another Tiananmen Square example before they find their spines.
Damn Danglars, I lurk the shit out of the US politics thread and while I normally disagree with most of what you say I feel like you hit the nail on the head pretty damn well here.
I too hope TL makes some kind of a stance on the issue. Even though there might be consequences.
Truthfully now is the time to do it. Blizzard is unlikely to sanction TL right now because it would just stoke the shitstorm to come down hard on one of the largest (mostly) Blizzard-focused games communities.
On October 11 2019 09:41 KlaCkoN wrote: This is sad and scary :/ That an American company would actively censor political speech on behalf of a murderous one-party regime does not bode well for the future. The political systems in Europe and America are not well equipped to deal with corporations stifling freedom of expression/religion/thought etc because it has not been particularly relevant. But now that there is an increasingly large amount of money to be made by actively suppressing speech the communist party finds objectionably it seems like we as citizens will find ourselves censored not by our governments, but by the private organisations that increasingly run all societal infrastructure. Chinese companies operate trains throughout Europe, how long until wearing the wrong kind of t-shirt will get you kicked off one? "It's a private company, take your business elsewhere"
One thing that is clear form this incident is that the majority of customers in the western world think Blizzard made a mistake and many Blizzard employees think the same way. So we have a situation where customers and workers have there interests aligned against the owners of Blizzard. We should take this opportunity to create organizations that can challenge the business practices of Blizzard, an alliance of us customers and Blizzard employees. Maybe supporting a labor union so the workers there can better leverage their power over the execs. I think it's time to stop treating private companies as sacred entities. The only way to guarantee companies act in our interest is for us to have control over their decisions.
There is time and place for everything, and a tournament broadcast is definitely not the place nor the time for political statements. The outrage is pretty ridiculous, and has nothing to do with 'censorship' or 'freedom of speech.'
On October 11 2019 13:51 Salazarz wrote: There is time and place for everything, and a tournament broadcast is definitely not the place nor the time for political statements. The outrage is pretty ridiculous, and has nothing to do with 'censorship' or 'freedom of speech.'
This whimsy statement has been repeated throughout this thread and has been debunked repeatedly. Please make an effort to discuss honestly.
On October 11 2019 05:37 Excludos wrote: This isn't Blizzard being apolitical, it's Blizzard taking a stance against Hong Kong.
nah, I don't think Blizzard is "for" or "against" Hong Kong. They are parroting some words to protect a revenue stream in a massive consumer market. + Show Spoiler +
China and Hong Kong are not cultures and countries in the eyes of Blizzard. China and Hong Kong are revenue and profit sources.
Likewise, I do not think Blizzard is "for" or "against" homosexuality. They do their gay pride celebrations in countries where it is politically expedient to do so. They are silent in countries where they deem it too controversial to bring up.
Of course they are not communists by heart, but that does not matter. They have become an proxy-executor for chinese propaganda.
I can tell you what their next move probably will be. Blizzard will release some vague general statement about how much they love both Hong Kong and China and they want to see both countries work together better. Such harmony will improve the whole wide world and make the whole world a better place!
As offensive as that would be in and of itself, they can't actually do that lest they anger the thinn skinned government of China. They're working to overthrow Hong Kong, and won't accept anything that resembles harmony or working togheter
Actually I can justify banning the player since he broke the rules, but why fire the casters? I don't seem to understand what they did wrong... They didn't say anything political as far as I read, so no reason to fire them...
On October 11 2019 09:50 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: I oppose tech corporations censoring political speech. All that is needed is a disclaimer that the views of whoever speaks do not necessarily reflect the views of the tech corporation.
I think the current extreme political repression practiced by China on Uyghur minorities, and the political and legislative violence done to Hong Kong society rise to a level that all decent people should condemn unanimously. I, however, don't think the logic applies to absolutely all forms of political expression done in a tournament put on by private companies. Neo nazi sentiment in European far right, or from Iran to torture and burn all homosexuals, or LaRouche's eating the babies will not and should not inspire outrage if statements are censored in video or interview. Organizers, participants, and sponsors have the better standing in that case.
On October 11 2019 09:41 KlaCkoN wrote: This is sad and scary :/ That an American company would actively censor political speech on behalf of a murderous one-party regime does not bode well for the future. The political systems in Europe and America are not well equipped to deal with corporations stifling freedom of expression/religion/thought etc because it has not been particularly relevant. But now that there is an increasingly large amount of money to be made by actively suppressing speech the communist party finds objectionably it seems like we as citizens will find ourselves censored not by our governments, but by the private organisations that increasingly run all societal infrastructure. Chinese companies operate trains throughout Europe, how long until wearing the wrong kind of t-shirt will get you kicked off one? "It's a private company, take your business elsewhere"
This is the cruz of the issue. The Chinese authoritarian regime headed by Xi Jinping is notoriously petty and vengeful. His nonsensical reactions should be roundly ridiculed by everybody. But the might of the chinese economy and economic relations, and his willingness to go full crazy, makes everyone step carefully (sadly). He's empowered by every incremental level of bullshit he pays no real consequence for.
I still am angry at how few major organizations have stood up for the gamer & casters. China gets away with this bullshit precisely because how few organizations (like TeamLiquid, at this moment) are willing to stand for the little guy against the powerful. Maybe they're banned from a major tournament, or maybe some players or associates (or infamously their families) will suddenly have visa issues or banking issues.
Hong Kong is just today's major example of where the rubber hits the road. What newfound outrage will the Chinese Party of China feel more free to adopt, when literal state violence against a protest movement doesn't inspire solidarity? Maybe the rest of the world needs to see another Tiananmen Square example before they find their spines.
Well you do understand that supporting separatism like chanting freedom to Hong Kong it's kind of a big deal politically in China and not just the government, the people are against it and will boycott your products and services... I don't think even the majority of the 7.5 million population of Hong Kong want to separate from China, although there is big hate for the CCP and mainland China in the young generations it seems.
You think supporting separatism in China after they've had over a century of humiliation starting with the opium wars, the eight nation alliance of Japan, Russia, Britain, France, the United States, Germany, Italy and Austria-Hungary occupation and plundering of China, colonialism of Hong Kong and Macao, occupation and humiliation by Japan in the second world war and the Civil war between the communists and imperalists who fled to Taiwan with China's riches is smart? You think that after all the plundering other nations did to China they would accept foreign entities supporting separatism in their country. It's just a taboo topic, people here should be able to understand this...
Just like you can't go to California and chant any kind of racism and support white supremacists you can't expect not to have an outrage, you can't go to China and chant freedom to Hong Kong...
It's funny because no one supported Catalonia to this extent when they after a referendum voted to leave Spain... It's not like CCP oppressed Hong Kong like a middle east dictatorship, they wanted to have an extradition deal with Hong Kong government which is normal for countries like the US and Canada to have. In the end they backtracked, but protests became more violent with separatism as main objective. Hong Kong is part of China, not a sovereign entity, just with more autonomy compared to mainland China. Majority of Chinese also support their government oppressive as it is.
On October 11 2019 09:50 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: I oppose tech corporations censoring political speech. All that is needed is a disclaimer that the views of whoever speaks do not necessarily reflect the views of the tech corporation.
I think the current extreme political repression practiced by China on Uyghur minorities, and the political and legislative violence done to Hong Kong society rise to a level that all decent people should condemn unanimously. I, however, don't think the logic applies to absolutely all forms of political expression done in a tournament put on by private companies. Neo nazi sentiment in European far right, or from Iran to torture and burn all homosexuals, or LaRouche's eating the babies will not and should not inspire outrage if statements are censored in video or interview. Organizers, participants, and sponsors have the better standing in that case.
On October 11 2019 09:41 KlaCkoN wrote: This is sad and scary :/ That an American company would actively censor political speech on behalf of a murderous one-party regime does not bode well for the future. The political systems in Europe and America are not well equipped to deal with corporations stifling freedom of expression/religion/thought etc because it has not been particularly relevant. But now that there is an increasingly large amount of money to be made by actively suppressing speech the communist party finds objectionably it seems like we as citizens will find ourselves censored not by our governments, but by the private organisations that increasingly run all societal infrastructure. Chinese companies operate trains throughout Europe, how long until wearing the wrong kind of t-shirt will get you kicked off one? "It's a private company, take your business elsewhere"
This is the cruz of the issue. The Chinese authoritarian regime headed by Xi Jinping is notoriously petty and vengeful. His nonsensical reactions should be roundly ridiculed by everybody. But the might of the chinese economy and economic relations, and his willingness to go full crazy, makes everyone step carefully (sadly). He's empowered by every incremental level of bullshit he pays no real consequence for.
I still am angry at how few major organizations have stood up for the gamer & casters. China gets away with this bullshit precisely because how few organizations (like TeamLiquid, at this moment) are willing to stand for the little guy against the powerful. Maybe they're banned from a major tournament, or maybe some players or associates (or infamously their families) will suddenly have visa issues or banking issues.
Hong Kong is just today's major example of where the rubber hits the road. What newfound outrage will the Chinese Party of China feel more free to adopt, when literal state violence against a protest movement doesn't inspire solidarity? Maybe the rest of the world needs to see another Tiananmen Square example before they find their spines.
Well you do understand that supporting separatism like chanting freedom to Hong Kong it's kind of a big deal politically in China and not just the government, the people are against it and will boycott your products and services... I don't think even the majority of the 7.5 million population of Hong Kong want to separate from China, although there is big hate for the CCP and mainland China in the young generations it seems.
You think supporting separatism in China after they've had over a century of humiliation starting with the opium wars, the eight nation alliance of Japan, Russia, Britain, France, the United States, Germany, Italy and Austria-Hungary occupation and plundering of China, colonialism of Hong Kong and Macao, occupation and humiliation by Japan in the second world war and the Civil war between the communists and imperalists who fled to Taiwan with China's riches is smart? You think that after all the plundering other nations did to China they would accept foreign entities supporting separatism in their country. It's just a taboo topic, people here should be able to understand this...
Just like you can't go to California and chant any kind of racism and support white supremacists you can't expect not to have an outrage, you can't go to China and chant freedom to Hong Kong...
It's funny because no one supported Catalonia to this extent when they after a referendum voted to leave Spain... It's not like CCP oppressed Hong Kong like a middle east dictatorship, they wanted to have an extradition deal with Hong Kong government which is normal for countries like the US and Canada to have. In the end they backtracked, but protests became more violent with separatism as main objective. Hong Kong is part of China, not a sovereign entity, just with more autonomy compared to mainland China. Majority of Chinese also support their government oppressive as it is.
The Hong Kong Basic Law ensures that Hong Kong will retain its capitalist economic system and own currency (the Hong Kong Dollar), legal system, legislative system, and people's rights and freedom for fifty years, as a special administrative region (SAR) of China for 50 years, until 2047.
This is what it is all about. This is what the fight is about. China has no say, they agreed to these terms.
Poor China, being humiliated over the ages, yet occupying other lands themselves. What should people like HKG feel like, when they've been occupied by some entity for hundreds of years, changing over the ages?
On October 11 2019 09:50 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: I oppose tech corporations censoring political speech. All that is needed is a disclaimer that the views of whoever speaks do not necessarily reflect the views of the tech corporation.
I think the current extreme political repression practiced by China on Uyghur minorities, and the political and legislative violence done to Hong Kong society rise to a level that all decent people should condemn unanimously. I, however, don't think the logic applies to absolutely all forms of political expression done in a tournament put on by private companies. Neo nazi sentiment in European far right, or from Iran to torture and burn all homosexuals, or LaRouche's eating the babies will not and should not inspire outrage if statements are censored in video or interview. Organizers, participants, and sponsors have the better standing in that case.
On October 11 2019 09:41 KlaCkoN wrote: This is sad and scary :/ That an American company would actively censor political speech on behalf of a murderous one-party regime does not bode well for the future. The political systems in Europe and America are not well equipped to deal with corporations stifling freedom of expression/religion/thought etc because it has not been particularly relevant. But now that there is an increasingly large amount of money to be made by actively suppressing speech the communist party finds objectionably it seems like we as citizens will find ourselves censored not by our governments, but by the private organisations that increasingly run all societal infrastructure. Chinese companies operate trains throughout Europe, how long until wearing the wrong kind of t-shirt will get you kicked off one? "It's a private company, take your business elsewhere"
This is the cruz of the issue. The Chinese authoritarian regime headed by Xi Jinping is notoriously petty and vengeful. His nonsensical reactions should be roundly ridiculed by everybody. But the might of the chinese economy and economic relations, and his willingness to go full crazy, makes everyone step carefully (sadly). He's empowered by every incremental level of bullshit he pays no real consequence for.
I still am angry at how few major organizations have stood up for the gamer & casters. China gets away with this bullshit precisely because how few organizations (like TeamLiquid, at this moment) are willing to stand for the little guy against the powerful. Maybe they're banned from a major tournament, or maybe some players or associates (or infamously their families) will suddenly have visa issues or banking issues.
Hong Kong is just today's major example of where the rubber hits the road. What newfound outrage will the Chinese Party of China feel more free to adopt, when literal state violence against a protest movement doesn't inspire solidarity? Maybe the rest of the world needs to see another Tiananmen Square example before they find their spines.
Well you do understand that supporting separatism like chanting freedom to Hong Kong it's kind of a big deal politically in China and not just the government, the people are against it and will boycott your products and services... I don't think even the majority of the 7.5 million population of Hong Kong want to separate from China, although there is big hate for the CCP and mainland China in the young generations it seems.
You think supporting separatism in China after they've had over a century of humiliation starting with the opium wars, the eight nation alliance of Japan, Russia, Britain, France, the United States, Germany, Italy and Austria-Hungary occupation and plundering of China, colonialism of Hong Kong and Macao, occupation and humiliation by Japan in the second world war and the Civil war between the communists and imperalists who fled to Taiwan with China's riches is smart? You think that after all the plundering other nations did to China they would accept foreign entities supporting separatism in their country. It's just a taboo topic, people here should be able to understand this...
Just like you can't go to California and chant any kind of racism and support white supremacists you can't expect not to have an outrage, you can't go to China and chant freedom to Hong Kong...
It's funny because no one supported Catalonia to this extent when they after a referendum voted to leave Spain... It's not like CCP oppressed Hong Kong like a middle east dictatorship, they wanted to have an extradition deal with Hong Kong government which is normal for countries like the US and Canada to have. In the end they backtracked, but protests became more violent with separatism as main objective. Hong Kong is part of China, not a sovereign entity, just with more autonomy compared to mainland China. Majority of Chinese also support their government oppressive as it is.
The Hong Kong Basic Law ensures that Hong Kong will retain its capitalist economic system and own currency (the Hong Kong Dollar), legal system, legislative system, and people's rights and freedom for fifty years, as a special administrative region (SAR) of China for 50 years, until 2047.
This is what it is all about. This is what the fight is about. China has no say, they agreed to these terms.
Hong Kong government proposed an extradition bill, which is normal for countries who share security concerns like USA and Canada. Hong Kong people protested, bill was terminated... From what i read about 2 million Hong Kongers protested freely, people's rights and freedom were exercised. After that protest turned violent and riots broke all over Hong Kong which caused the police to suppress the riots. Billions of damage to Hong Kong from the riots and people injured. There is no freedom for violence and rioting...
After 4 months of rioting there is 1 person shot by the police (not even dead).
If we compare to France Yellow Vest protests:
Casualties Death(s) 11 people, including 3 yellow vests, were killed in traffic accidents caused by yellow vests roadblocks in Belgium and France, 2 yellow vests, both aged over 50, died during the demonstrations due to heart problems unrelated to the protests, 1 woman died of a surgical shock at the hospital after she had been injured in the margins of a demonstration.[57] Injuries 4,000 (police and civilians)[56]
Not to mention what would've happened if it was in US with gun happy laws, and itchy fingers of the police, so I think Hong Kong's police is handling it well...
I'm just gonna copy my thoughts on the China and British deal on Hong Kong from earlier in this thread as China will inevitably, but not openly influence politics in Hong Kong:
China signed the agreement for Hong Kong with the British Colonial rule, because it was a good deal at the time for them as they were signing from the perspective of a weak state. Now that they are clearly not a weak country anymore I don't expect them to fully honor the agreements until 2047, just like any country in a position of power would... E.g. Trump's withdrawal from various agreements...
Seeing am ppl talking about what is good or wrong is really hard considering how this country is all about genocides and destroying governements for the sake of big coorp and they fully support this corrupt political and society model.
On October 11 2019 16:14 raga4ka wrote: Actually I can justify banning the player since he broke the rules, but why fire the casters? I don't seem to understand what they did wrong... They didn't say anything political as far as I read, so no reason to fire them...
The casters allowed him to say it, is the gist of the problem.
I don't even agree that banning the player is justified. Especially not for 12 months and withdrawing of his earnings for that entire season. I don't think anyone disagrees that he broke the rules, but a slap on the wrist would have been more reasonable, at the harshest maybe a short ban.
To compare, in 2011 Marineking held up a sign in stream stating that the Dokudo Islands belong to Korea, a territory dispute they had with Japan. No punishment.
Just a few days ago, America University held up a sign on a official Blizzard Heartstone stream stating "Boycott Blizzard. Free Hong Kong". No punishment. Not even a disqualification from that very tournament (Tho the team pulled out themselves stating they weren't comfortable continuing).
BlitzChung: Murder of career, steal his earnings, and fire the casters.
On October 11 2019 16:14 raga4ka wrote: Actually I can justify banning the player since he broke the rules, but why fire the casters? I don't seem to understand what they did wrong... They didn't say anything political as far as I read, so no reason to fire them...
The casters allowed him to say it, is the gist of the problem.
According to the translation I read, they said "go on then, say the 8 words". That is, they specifically prompted him to say that set phrase, fully knowing it was coming.
It's funny because no one supported Catalonia to this extent when they after a referendum voted to leave Spain... It's not like CCP oppressed Hong Kong like a middle east dictatorship, they wanted to have an extradition deal with Hong Kong government which is normal for countries like the US and Canada to have. In the end they backtracked, but protests became more violent with separatism as main objective. Hong Kong is part of China, not a sovereign entity, just with more autonomy compared to mainland China. Majority of Chinese also support their government oppressive as it is.
You should educate yourself on the topic, unlike Spain China is a totalitarian state were the governing body does whatever they want to whomever they want, it is not fettered by the law only by the whims of its supreme leader.
The bills original intent was for China to be allowed extradition of anyone suspected of a crime in China. Sounds almost like a rule that would a allow a fickle dictatorship to get their hands of whomever they wanted in Hong Kong and then do whatever they wanted to them. Just as they do with the citizens of mainland China.
Catalonia and Spain are so far off its not even funny.
The bills original intent was for China to be allowed extradition of anyone suspected of a crime in China. Sounds almost like a rule that would a allow a fickle dictatorship to get their hands of whomever they wanted in Hong Kong and then do whatever they wanted to them. Just as they do with the citizens of mainland China.
It's a tad bit more nuanced than that. Hong Kong has no extradition treaty with e.g. Taiwan, meaning that recently a young man living in Hong Kong murdered his girlfriend in Taiwan and fled to HK, where he can't be prosecuted for the crime.
That's not exactly a great state of affairs either.
It's a tad bit more nuanced than that. Hong Kong has no extradition treaty with e.g. Taiwan, meaning that recently a young man living in Hong Kong murdered his girlfriend in Taiwan and fled to HK, where he can't be prosecuted for the crime.
That's not exactly a great state of affairs either.
Do you really think that there are people ready to risk everything, to protect a murderer ?
Or is it more plausible that the "general extradition" law that beijing tries to force on HK will be used to silence political voices by making them afraid of disapearing ?
"Umbrella Protests" have startet in 2014, when Beijing announced that HK will not be allowed to vote freely in 2017 (promised in 1997), but that a comitee will decide upon the candidates before the election.
And now the generel extradition law would allow the HK government to deliver any prisioner at "their sole discretion" to any country in the world. Including Mainland China.
Since 1997 the ambitious beijing has stepped back from promises towards the independet HK Administration and has riled up the people with propaganda. Since Xi came to office and gave himself even more power it is getting worse at a faster rate.
It's funny because no one supported Catalonia to this extent when they after a referendum voted to leave Spain... It's not like CCP oppressed Hong Kong like a middle east dictatorship, they wanted to have an extradition deal with Hong Kong government which is normal for countries like the US and Canada to have. In the end they backtracked, but protests became more violent with separatism as main objective. Hong Kong is part of China, not a sovereign entity, just with more autonomy compared to mainland China. Majority of Chinese also support their government oppressive as it is.
You should educate yourself on the topic, unlike Spain China is a totalitarian state were the governing body does whatever they want to whomever they want, it is not fettered by the law only by the whims of its supreme leader.
The bills original intent was for China to be allowed extradition of anyone suspected of a crime in China. Sounds almost like a rule that would a allow a fickle dictatorship to get their hands of whomever they wanted in Hong Kong and then do whatever they wanted to them. Just as they do with the citizens of mainland China.
Catalonia and Spain are so far off its not even funny.
I know the difference, between the political system that both countries use. What does it matter? In the end the Catalonian leader was also hunted by Spain government for having separatist and anti government agenda. Everyone knows that human rights are not China's strong point, but they are improving non the less. There was never democracy in Hong Kong not with British nor Chinese reign.
Hong Kong is a declining economy, already surpassed by Shanghai, Beijing and Shenzhen, soon to be surpassed by Taiwan, Guangzhou and Chongqing if it continues like this. Economic instability is the main reason why protests broke out so easily, but that's not the CCP's fault. Low GDP growth, high living costs, no reforms on the country's economy, high competition from Asian economies, as well as democracy activists that fuel hate for CCP and China is the main reasons...
People especially those outside of China seem to ignore this factors. And let me tell you that the CCP and China want to improve the economic instability and livelihood of Hong Kongers by integrating it in to the countries economy, through projects like the Greater Bay Area. Hong Kong is not as important at this point in time to force the CCP to impose it's sovereignty over Hong Kong.
That's a nice article portraying western views from the author on Hong Kong's situation:
"Given it recognises no legal or other constraints on its behaviour, Xi’s regime will now feel free to deal with the Hong Kong unrest as it sees fit. The signs are ominous. Whether or not the violence was deliberately orchestrated by Beijing, as Martin Lee, the respected pro-democracy activist and former legislator, has suggested, China seems determined to exploit the opportunity it has created to tighten its grip and accelerate the process of forcible political assimilation."
So far I don't see the tanks rolling in to Hong Kong Tiananmen square style.
1. The amount of Tlers who are with Blizzard / China on this are exceptionally high, compared to other forums. 2. The audacity of Blizzard to say politics have no place in their games.
The bills original intent was for China to be allowed extradition of anyone suspected of a crime in China. Sounds almost like a rule that would a allow a fickle dictatorship to get their hands of whomever they wanted in Hong Kong and then do whatever they wanted to them. Just as they do with the citizens of mainland China.
It's a tad bit more nuanced than that. Hong Kong has no extradition treaty with e.g. Taiwan, meaning that recently a young man living in Hong Kong murdered his girlfriend in Taiwan and fled to HK, where he can't be prosecuted for the crime.
That's not exactly a great state of affairs either.
Taiwan doesn't have an extradition treaty with China either. Taiwan, nor Hong Kong isn't the one pushing for the extradition from Hong Kong to China, it's China that is pushing for it. The murder business is solely China's justification for it as pushed solely by their own state own media, and it doesn't even make sense as China has no extradition treaty with Taiwan anyways.
On October 11 2019 18:49 raga4ka wrote:Hong Kong is not as important at this point in time to force the CCP to impose it's sovereignty over Hong Kong.
Yet it is important enough to abduct booksellers and only approved by Beijing committe members are allowed to stand, and they remove those who do not swear an oath to China?
On October 11 2019 18:50 just-pick-warren wrote: Two things I find surprising here:
1. The amount of Tlers who are with Blizzard / China on this are exceptionally high, compared to other forums. 2. The audacity of Blizzard to say politics have no place in their games.
On nr 1: You find them elsewhere as well. The unique thing about TL is that there's no downvote system like on Reddit, so posts that goes against the majority opinion are equally as visible as those who don't. That's not a bad thing by any stretch, but it does often end in the derailment of a thread or topic by a minority few.
In 2: It's impressively hypocritical, yes. However there are a large amount of people who share this opinion, and would have sided with Blizzard had they not gone completely overboard in their protection of the Chinese market.
It's funny because no one supported Catalonia to this extent when they after a referendum voted to leave Spain... It's not like CCP oppressed Hong Kong like a middle east dictatorship, they wanted to have an extradition deal with Hong Kong government which is normal for countries like the US and Canada to have. In the end they backtracked, but protests became more violent with separatism as main objective. Hong Kong is part of China, not a sovereign entity, just with more autonomy compared to mainland China. Majority of Chinese also support their government oppressive as it is.
You should educate yourself on the topic, unlike Spain China is a totalitarian state were the governing body does whatever they want to whomever they want, it is not fettered by the law only by the whims of its supreme leader.
The bills original intent was for China to be allowed extradition of anyone suspected of a crime in China. Sounds almost like a rule that would a allow a fickle dictatorship to get their hands of whomever they wanted in Hong Kong and then do whatever they wanted to them. Just as they do with the citizens of mainland China.
Catalonia and Spain are so far off its not even funny.
I know the difference, between the political system that both countries use. What does it matter? In the end the Catalonian leader was also hunted by Spain government for having separatist and anti government agenda. Everyone knows that human rights are not China's strong point, but they are improving non the less. There was never democracy in Hong Kong not with British nor Chinese reign.
Hong Kong is a declining economy, already surpassed by Shanghai, Beijing and Shenzhen, soon to be surpassed by Taiwan, Guangzhou and Chongqing if it continues like this. Economic instability is the main reason why protests broke out so easily, but that's not the CCP's fault. Low GDP growth, high living costs, no reforms on the country's economy, high competition from Asian economies, as well as democracy activists that fuel hate for CCP and China is the main reasons...
People especially those outside of China seem to ignore this factors. And let me tell you that the CCP and China want to improve the economic instability and livelihood of Hong Kongers by integrating it in to the countries economy, through projects like the Greater Bay Area. Hong Kong is not as important at this point in time to force the CCP to impose it's sovereignty over Hong Kong.
That's a nice article portraying western views from the author on Hong Kong's situation:
"Given it recognises no legal or other constraints on its behaviour, Xi’s regime will now feel free to deal with the Hong Kong unrest as it sees fit. The signs are ominous. Whether or not the violence was deliberately orchestrated by Beijing, as Martin Lee, the respected pro-democracy activist and former legislator, has suggested, China seems determined to exploit the opportunity it has created to tighten its grip and accelerate the process of forcible political assimilation."
So far I don't see the tanks rolling in to Hong Kong Tiananmen square style.
You do indeed seem well educated in the topic but I strongly disagree with your opinion.
I feel many of us westerners don't know how good we have it, life with limited freedom like the citizens of China and North Korea struggle with is hard to imagine for those in our position. Therefore it is easy to adopt a "it can't be that bad" mentality, while in reality we have no bloody clue. I don't have a clue and you don't have a clue, you know who does, probably the people struggligt for freedom HK right now.
Seems you will sit there, in your relative comfortable safety saying they don't have it so bad, the tanks haven't rolled in yet.
What would YOU do when the tanks roll in, would you actually do something? Because it seems you are saying there is no point even discussing the matter right now because not enough people have died, when people do die it will be too late.
Also the only way of conquest and repression isn't through violence, China is assimilating HK one small step at a time, and a million steps makes a mile and at that point it will be too late. But sure, you sit there in your comforts raging at other people raging at injustices you personally don't think are serious enough yet.
It's funny because no one supported Catalonia to this extent when they after a referendum voted to leave Spain... It's not like CCP oppressed Hong Kong like a middle east dictatorship, they wanted to have an extradition deal with Hong Kong government which is normal for countries like the US and Canada to have. In the end they backtracked, but protests became more violent with separatism as main objective. Hong Kong is part of China, not a sovereign entity, just with more autonomy compared to mainland China. Majority of Chinese also support their government oppressive as it is.
You should educate yourself on the topic, unlike Spain China is a totalitarian state were the governing body does whatever they want to whomever they want, it is not fettered by the law only by the whims of its supreme leader.
The bills original intent was for China to be allowed extradition of anyone suspected of a crime in China. Sounds almost like a rule that would a allow a fickle dictatorship to get their hands of whomever they wanted in Hong Kong and then do whatever they wanted to them. Just as they do with the citizens of mainland China.
Catalonia and Spain are so far off its not even funny.
Hong Kong is...already surpassed by Shanghai, Beijing and Shenzhen, soon to be surpassed by Taiwan, Guangzhou and Chongqing if it continues like this.
This statement is so false and stupid, it blows my mind that someone can be this blatantly ignorant. Hong Kong is a frickin tiny population, so of course in terms of sheer GDP it is behind those big chinese cities. In terms of GDP per capita, it's leagues above any of those cities, and even Taiwan. Your statement also implies that Taiwan is behind those big chinese cities. Taiwan has a GDP per capita of nearly twice that of Shanghai, and enjoys far higher living standards. Taiwan, Japan, and S. Korea are the top 3 nations in Asia in terms of the quality of their manufacturing. Funny how the capitalist neighbors of china are enjoying far richer lives. Stop spreading false info, and do more research.
You think supporting separatism in China after they've had over a century of humiliation starting with the opium wars, the eight nation alliance of Japan, Russia, Britain, France, the United States, Germany, Italy and Austria-Hungary occupation and plundering of China, colonialism of Hong Kong and Macao, occupation and humiliation by Japan in the second world war and the Civil war between the communists and imperalists who fled to Taiwan with China's riches is smart? You think that after all the plundering other nations did to China they would accept foreign entities supporting separatism in their country. It's just a taboo topic, people here should be able to understand this
"Century of humiliation". Wow. When someone parrots the Chinese narrative it become obvious. Because there was a "Century of humiliation", it becomes right for PRC to do anything they like in order to not be "humiliated" including destroying their people. Apparently the poeople of Hong Kong shouldn't have the principles of self determination becuase of "century of humiliation". This thread has become an insight into how the Chinese state media controls the Chinese population.
China is not stupid, if they send tanks and (even more ) riot police they can not uphold the story they created:
1) Hong Kong Protestors are criminals and terrorist who hate the mainlanders 2) They do want Hong Kong to be seperate of china, but they are a very very very small group 3) china has honored all the promisses 4) china only wants to help poor struggeling hong kong
Tanks will show that china has lost control of the sitiuation and needs to exert force to get it back. Tanks will force western governments and especially companies to at least take a stand against beijing politcs. Xi does not fear rioters and umbrellas. He fears mass loads of people unhappy with a declining or even less fast growing economy.
And let's face it. main chinese business modell still is the production of consumer goods for the west. Their production capabilities can not operate of the domestic market alone and all the advances china made - without the constraints of democratic processes, workers or basic human rights, protection of enviroment - would be at risk.
It's funny because no one supported Catalonia to this extent when they after a referendum voted to leave Spain... It's not like CCP oppressed Hong Kong like a middle east dictatorship, they wanted to have an extradition deal with Hong Kong government which is normal for countries like the US and Canada to have. In the end they backtracked, but protests became more violent with separatism as main objective. Hong Kong is part of China, not a sovereign entity, just with more autonomy compared to mainland China. Majority of Chinese also support their government oppressive as it is.
You should educate yourself on the topic, unlike Spain China is a totalitarian state were the governing body does whatever they want to whomever they want, it is not fettered by the law only by the whims of its supreme leader.
The bills original intent was for China to be allowed extradition of anyone suspected of a crime in China. Sounds almost like a rule that would a allow a fickle dictatorship to get their hands of whomever they wanted in Hong Kong and then do whatever they wanted to them. Just as they do with the citizens of mainland China.
Catalonia and Spain are so far off its not even funny.
I know the difference, between the political system that both countries use. What does it matter? In the end the Catalonian leader was also hunted by Spain government for having separatist and anti government agenda. Everyone knows that human rights are not China's strong point, but they are improving non the less. There was never democracy in Hong Kong not with British nor Chinese reign.
Hong Kong is a declining economy, already surpassed by Shanghai, Beijing and Shenzhen, soon to be surpassed by Taiwan, Guangzhou and Chongqing if it continues like this. Economic instability is the main reason why protests broke out so easily, but that's not the CCP's fault. Low GDP growth, high living costs, no reforms on the country's economy, high competition from Asian economies, as well as democracy activists that fuel hate for CCP and China is the main reasons...
People especially those outside of China seem to ignore this factors. And let me tell you that the CCP and China want to improve the economic instability and livelihood of Hong Kongers by integrating it in to the countries economy, through projects like the Greater Bay Area. Hong Kong is not as important at this point in time to force the CCP to impose it's sovereignty over Hong Kong.
That's a nice article portraying western views from the author on Hong Kong's situation:
"Given it recognises no legal or other constraints on its behaviour, Xi’s regime will now feel free to deal with the Hong Kong unrest as it sees fit. The signs are ominous. Whether or not the violence was deliberately orchestrated by Beijing, as Martin Lee, the respected pro-democracy activist and former legislator, has suggested, China seems determined to exploit the opportunity it has created to tighten its grip and accelerate the process of forcible political assimilation."
So far I don't see the tanks rolling in to Hong Kong Tiananmen square style.
You do indeed seem well educated in the topic but I strongly disagree with your opinion.
I feel many of us westerners don't know how good we have it, life with limited freedom like the citizens of China and North Korea struggle with is hard to imagine for those in our position. Therefore it is easy to adopt a "it can't be that bad" mentality, while in reality we have no bloody clue. I don't have a clue and you don't have a clue, you know who does, probably the people struggligt for freedom HK right now.
Seems you will sit there, in your relative comfortable safety saying they don't have it so bad, the tanks haven't rolled in yet.
What would YOU do when the tanks roll in, would you actually do something? Because it seems you are saying there is no point even discussing the matter right now because not enough people have died, when people do die it will be too late.
Also the only way of conquest and repression isn't through violence, China is assimilating HK one small step at a time, and a million steps makes a mile and at that point it will be too late. But sure, you sit there in your comforts raging at other people raging at injustices you personally don't think are serious enough yet.
I support Hong Kongers peaceful protests over human rights violation, like the 2 million march at the start. I however don't support violence and rioting. It's not ok to ruin someone's business that he build his entire life or inflicting billions of damage to your city's economy, just to show that you are angry and someone doesn't share your political views.
Tiananmen square won't happen again, China is not the same as 30 years ago, 3 leaders changed, lessons have been learned. But protesters, at this point we should call them rioters are hoping to escalate the situation... Violence and riots won't earn them democracy and freedom nor any foreign support could ever do so.
You think supporting separatism in China after they've had over a century of humiliation starting with the opium wars, the eight nation alliance of Japan, Russia, Britain, France, the United States, Germany, Italy and Austria-Hungary occupation and plundering of China, colonialism of Hong Kong and Macao, occupation and humiliation by Japan in the second world war and the Civil war between the communists and imperalists who fled to Taiwan with China's riches is smart? You think that after all the plundering other nations did to China they would accept foreign entities supporting separatism in their country. It's just a taboo topic, people here should be able to understand this
"Century of humiliation". Wow. When someone parrots the Chinese narrative it become obvious. Because there was a "Century of humiliation", it becomes right for PRC to do anything they like in order to not be "humiliated" including destroying their people. Apparently the poeople of Hong Kong shouldn't have the principles of self determination becuase of "century of humiliation". This thread has become an insight into how the Chinese state media controls the Chinese population.
I just like to read on Asian culture, history and politics. Chinese state media don't post embarrassing facts about their history, but it is a thing among their people as you may know from the NBA fiasco, people feel offended. I'm just gonna post Joe Tsai's message here: https://www.facebook.com/100001583307192/posts/2653378931391524?sfns=mo
There is no need to read Chinese state media, SCMP is enough for current somewhat unbiased information and I lke to read books on such topics.
[QUOTE]On October 11 2019 19:14 tigon_ridge wrote: [QUOTE]On October 11 2019 18:49 raga4ka wrote: [QUOTE]On October 11 2019 17:52 Shuffleblade wrote: [QUOTE]On October 11 2019 16:58 raga4ka wrote:
This statement is so false and stupid, it blows my mind that someone can be this blatantly ignorant. Hong Kong is a frickin tiny population, so of course in terms of sheer GDP it is behind those big chinese cities. In terms of GDP per capita, it's leagues above any of those cities, and even Taiwan. Your statement also implies that Taiwan is behind those big chinese cities. Taiwan has a GDP per capita of nearly twice that of Shanghai, and enjoys far higher living standards. Taiwan, Japan, and S. Korea are the top 3 nations in Asia in terms of the quality of their manufacturing. Funny how the capitalist neighbors of china are enjoying far richer lives. Stop spreading false info, and do more research. [/QUOTE] Well of course China is a developing economy, you can't magically lift a population of 1,4b to their standarts... The point was that Hong Kong's protests are fueled mainly by high living costs and economical slowdown, not something that China and the CCP are responsible in Hong Kong.
So you are saying that nothing will ever "earn" Hong Kong democracy and freedom and so they shouldn't even try. Nice.
Hopefully Tiananmen Square massacre wouldn't happen again. Meanwhile, China is posting videos of a massive military build up just across the border. One can only wonder why.
It's funny because no one supported Catalonia to this extent when they after a referendum voted to leave Spain... It's not like CCP oppressed Hong Kong like a middle east dictatorship, they wanted to have an extradition deal with Hong Kong government which is normal for countries like the US and Canada to have. In the end they backtracked, but protests became more violent with separatism as main objective. Hong Kong is part of China, not a sovereign entity, just with more autonomy compared to mainland China. Majority of Chinese also support their government oppressive as it is.
You should educate yourself on the topic, unlike Spain China is a totalitarian state were the governing body does whatever they want to whomever they want, it is not fettered by the law only by the whims of its supreme leader.
The bills original intent was for China to be allowed extradition of anyone suspected of a crime in China. Sounds almost like a rule that would a allow a fickle dictatorship to get their hands of whomever they wanted in Hong Kong and then do whatever they wanted to them. Just as they do with the citizens of mainland China.
Catalonia and Spain are so far off its not even funny.
I know the difference, between the political system that both countries use. What does it matter? In the end the Catalonian leader was also hunted by Spain government for having separatist and anti government agenda. Everyone knows that human rights are not China's strong point, but they are improving non the less. There was never democracy in Hong Kong not with British nor Chinese reign.
Hong Kong is a declining economy, already surpassed by Shanghai, Beijing and Shenzhen, soon to be surpassed by Taiwan, Guangzhou and Chongqing if it continues like this. Economic instability is the main reason why protests broke out so easily, but that's not the CCP's fault. Low GDP growth, high living costs, no reforms on the country's economy, high competition from Asian economies, as well as democracy activists that fuel hate for CCP and China is the main reasons...
People especially those outside of China seem to ignore this factors. And let me tell you that the CCP and China want to improve the economic instability and livelihood of Hong Kongers by integrating it in to the countries economy, through projects like the Greater Bay Area. Hong Kong is not as important at this point in time to force the CCP to impose it's sovereignty over Hong Kong.
That's a nice article portraying western views from the author on Hong Kong's situation:
"Given it recognises no legal or other constraints on its behaviour, Xi’s regime will now feel free to deal with the Hong Kong unrest as it sees fit. The signs are ominous. Whether or not the violence was deliberately orchestrated by Beijing, as Martin Lee, the respected pro-democracy activist and former legislator, has suggested, China seems determined to exploit the opportunity it has created to tighten its grip and accelerate the process of forcible political assimilation."
So far I don't see the tanks rolling in to Hong Kong Tiananmen square style.
You do indeed seem well educated in the topic but I strongly disagree with your opinion.
I feel many of us westerners don't know how good we have it, life with limited freedom like the citizens of China and North Korea struggle with is hard to imagine for those in our position. Therefore it is easy to adopt a "it can't be that bad" mentality, while in reality we have no bloody clue. I don't have a clue and you don't have a clue, you know who does, probably the people struggligt for freedom HK right now.
Seems you will sit there, in your relative comfortable safety saying they don't have it so bad, the tanks haven't rolled in yet.
What would YOU do when the tanks roll in, would you actually do something? Because it seems you are saying there is no point even discussing the matter right now because not enough people have died, when people do die it will be too late.
Also the only way of conquest and repression isn't through violence, China is assimilating HK one small step at a time, and a million steps makes a mile and at that point it will be too late. But sure, you sit there in your comforts raging at other people raging at injustices you personally don't think are serious enough yet.
I support Hong Kongers peaceful protests over human rights violation, like the 2 million march at the start. I however don't support violence and rioting. It's not ok to ruin someone's business that he build his entire life or inflicting billions of damage to your city's economy, just to show that you are angry and someone doesn't share your political views.
Tiananmen square won't happen again, China is not the same as 30 years ago, 3 leaders changed, lessons have been learned. But protesters, at this point we should call them rioters are hoping to escalate the situation... Violence and riots won't earn them democracy and freedom nor any foreign support could ever do so.
If you didn't know afte rthe peaceful protest the politicans still went through with the bill, they just changed it a bit to apeace the masses. That is what triggered the riots, when massive people protest peacefully and yet it does not change the outcome meaningfully then what should the people do.
Obviously I don't condone rampant violence towards anyone nor destruction but I understand the reason for it. There is always an easy way for HK to quell the anger, just cancell or remove the bill, problem solved but they seem unwilling to do that.
On October 11 2019 19:27 Dangermousecatdog wrote: So you are saying that nothing will ever "earn" Hong Kong democracy and freedom and so they shouldn't even try. Nice.
Hopefully Tiananmen Square massacre wouldn't happen again. Meanwhile, China is posting videos of a massive military build up just across the border. One can only wonder why.
Hong Kong is already part of China it's not a sovereign entity, some kind of democracy can happen there until 2047, but unless China itself becomes a democratic country, the chances are very little at this point. Only when China changes it's political system it could happen.
On October 11 2019 09:50 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: I oppose tech corporations censoring political speech. All that is needed is a disclaimer that the views of whoever speaks do not necessarily reflect the views of the tech corporation.
I think the current extreme political repression practiced by China on Uyghur minorities, and the political and legislative violence done to Hong Kong society rise to a level that all decent people should condemn unanimously. I, however, don't think the logic applies to absolutely all forms of political expression done in a tournament put on by private companies. Neo nazi sentiment in European far right, or from Iran to torture and burn all homosexuals, or LaRouche's eating the babies will not and should not inspire outrage if statements are censored in video or interview. Organizers, participants, and sponsors have the better standing in that case.
On October 11 2019 09:41 KlaCkoN wrote: This is sad and scary :/ That an American company would actively censor political speech on behalf of a murderous one-party regime does not bode well for the future. The political systems in Europe and America are not well equipped to deal with corporations stifling freedom of expression/religion/thought etc because it has not been particularly relevant. But now that there is an increasingly large amount of money to be made by actively suppressing speech the communist party finds objectionably it seems like we as citizens will find ourselves censored not by our governments, but by the private organisations that increasingly run all societal infrastructure. Chinese companies operate trains throughout Europe, how long until wearing the wrong kind of t-shirt will get you kicked off one? "It's a private company, take your business elsewhere"
This is the cruz of the issue. The Chinese authoritarian regime headed by Xi Jinping is notoriously petty and vengeful. His nonsensical reactions should be roundly ridiculed by everybody. But the might of the chinese economy and economic relations, and his willingness to go full crazy, makes everyone step carefully (sadly). He's empowered by every incremental level of bullshit he pays no real consequence for.
I still am angry at how few major organizations have stood up for the gamer & casters. China gets away with this bullshit precisely because how few organizations (like TeamLiquid, at this moment) are willing to stand for the little guy against the powerful. Maybe they're banned from a major tournament, or maybe some players or associates (or infamously their families) will suddenly have visa issues or banking issues.
Hong Kong is just today's major example of where the rubber hits the road. What newfound outrage will the Chinese Party of China feel more free to adopt, when literal state violence against a protest movement doesn't inspire solidarity? Maybe the rest of the world needs to see another Tiananmen Square example before they find their spines.
Well you do understand that supporting separatism like chanting freedom to Hong Kong it's kind of a big deal politically in China and not just the government, the people are against it and will boycott your products and services... I don't think even the majority of the 7.5 million population of Hong Kong want to separate from China, although there is big hate for the CCP and mainland China in the young generations it seems.
You think supporting separatism in China after they've had over a century of humiliation starting with the opium wars, the eight nation alliance of Japan, Russia, Britain, France, the United States, Germany, Italy and Austria-Hungary occupation and plundering of China, colonialism of Hong Kong and Macao, occupation and humiliation by Japan in the second world war and the Civil war between the communists and imperalists who fled to Taiwan with China's riches is smart? You think that after all the plundering other nations did to China they would accept foreign entities supporting separatism in their country. It's just a taboo topic, people here should be able to understand this...
Just like you can't go to California and chant any kind of racism and support white supremacists you can't expect not to have an outrage, you can't go to China and chant freedom to Hong Kong...
It's funny because no one supported Catalonia to this extent when they after a referendum voted to leave Spain... It's not like CCP oppressed Hong Kong like a middle east dictatorship, they wanted to have an extradition deal with Hong Kong government which is normal for countries like the US and Canada to have. In the end they backtracked, but protests became more violent with separatism as main objective. Hong Kong is part of China, not a sovereign entity, just with more autonomy compared to mainland China. Majority of Chinese also support their government oppressive as it is.
China’s obsession with ‘humiliation’ is absolutely part of the problem here, it crops up all the time and it extends beyond the understandable sentiment you’re talking about here.
Most Westerners of my age aren’t hypocritical on this matter at all, we’ve seen the destruction wrought by national pride in our own recent history. The breakup of the former Yugoslavia being more recent and close to home than many Europeans consciously think of admittedly.
As for Catalonia, that’s to me up for the Catalans to decide and for the rest of Spain to honour, and I wouldn’t support separatism in and of itself, it has to fall within certain parameters.
Pep Guardiola, the football manager of Catalan descent wore some item of solidarity with Catalan independence in interviews for quite some period, he got a continual bunch of fines and said he’d continue to do so regardless. He wasn’t banned from football for a year and made to return his winnings.
The majority of the Chinese support the government for legitimate reasons of economic improvement etc, but it’s not as if they get open access to information on particular topics. Which is the Chinese’s business and something we can’t really break through from the outside, but we shouldn’t be facilitating that control on information when it comes to the rest of the world.
On October 11 2019 19:25 KT_Elwood wrote: Tanks will show that china has lost control of the sitiuation
The opposite is true, tanks show that they are in control and are willing to hold up the rule of (their) law. As long as they win the civil war only, of course, if they are repelled, the province may well secede.
On October 11 2019 19:25 KT_Elwood wrote: Tanks will show that china has lost control of the sitiuation
The opposite is true, tanks show that they are in control and are willing to hold up the rule of (their) law. As long as they win the civil war only, of course, if they are repelled, the province may well secede.
Through history almost every exertion of violence was framed as "unevitable reaction".
Nazi Germany faked an attack of polish forces to start WW2 over. August 4, 1964 Tonkin incident startet US full scale engagement in Vietnam conflict - while never happend Bush sr. Administration faked stories about "babies being murdered in hospitals" to raid Iraq Bush jr. administration faked evidence of WoD to raid Iraq again and kill Hussein Erdogan fakes and exaggerats kurdish terrorist attacks to attack YPG in Syria Israeli government orders airstrikes on occupied territory - only in "revenge" The list goes on, and does not start in 1939.
Even if you have a powerful military, you can't just go around and start killing people. If you want, you have to fabricate a reason first to give at least your footmen a reason to follow.That reason has to make you look good and the cause right. That what assholes apparently have in comon, be them nazis, israelis, democrats, republicans, muslims or whatever.
And if even Hitler needed a fucking cover up story, Xi JingPing needs one too, and a good one.
On October 11 2019 19:25 KT_Elwood wrote: Tanks will show that china has lost control of the sitiuation
The opposite is true, tanks show that they are in control and are willing to hold up the rule of (their) law. As long as they win the civil war only, of course, if they are repelled, the province may well secede.
Through history almost every exertion of violence was framed as "unevitable reaction".
Nazi Germany faked an attack of polish forces to start WW2 over. August 4, 1964 Tonkin incident startet US full scale engagement in Vietnam conflict - while never happend Bush sr. Administration faked stories about "babies being murdered in hospitals" to raid Iraq Bush jr. administration faked evidence of WoD to raid Iraq again and kill Hussein Erdogan fakes and exaggerats kurdish terrorist attacks to attack YPG in Syria Israeli government orders airstrikes on occupied territory - only in "revenge" The list goes on, and does not start in 1939.
Even if you have a powerful military, you can't just go around and start killing people. If you want, you have to fabricate a reason first to give at least your footmen a reason to follow.That reason has to make you look good and the cause right. That what assholes apparently have in comon, be them nazis, israelis, democrats, republicans, muslims or whatever.
And if even Hitler needed a fucking cover up story, Xi JingPing needs one too, and a good one.
You're comparing whatever potential response to internal unrest that's also now being supported by outside forces to full on attacks on sovereign nations. Not nearly the same thing.
On October 11 2019 19:25 KT_Elwood wrote: Tanks will show that china has lost control of the sitiuation
The opposite is true, tanks show that they are in control and are willing to hold up the rule of (their) law. As long as they win the civil war only, of course, if they are repelled, the province may well secede.
Through history almost every exertion of violence was framed as "unevitable reaction".
Nazi Germany faked an attack of polish forces to start WW2 over. August 4, 1964 Tonkin incident startet US full scale engagement in Vietnam conflict - while never happend Bush sr. Administration faked stories about "babies being murdered in hospitals" to raid Iraq Bush jr. administration faked evidence of WoD to raid Iraq again and kill Hussein Erdogan fakes and exaggerats kurdish terrorist attacks to attack YPG in Syria Israeli government orders airstrikes on occupied territory - only in "revenge" The list goes on, and does not start in 1939.
Even if you have a powerful military, you can't just go around and start killing people. If you want, you have to fabricate a reason first to give at least your footmen a reason to follow.That reason has to make you look good and the cause right. That what assholes apparently have in comon, be them nazis, israelis, democrats, republicans, muslims or whatever.
And if even Hitler needed a fucking cover up story, Xi JingPing needs one too, and a good one.
You're comparing whatever potential response to internal unrest that's also now being supported by outside forces to full on attacks on sovereign nations. Not nearly the same thing.
And yes, perhaps Bush Sr. exaggerated certain things around the first Gulf War, but Hussein did also provably gas people and use military force.
I did not intend to derail this derailed thread any further.
In short: Use of tanks/Military imho need to be combined with a storyline that supports china's rightfullness to exert this kind of force.
The only way to this if the protestors form a strong enough political representation, removing/overpowering Lam administration, that openly reaches out internationaly and seeks independence from mainland china. In that case Carrie Lam would seek out military help.
It's funny because no one supported Catalonia to this extent when they after a referendum voted to leave Spain... It's not like CCP oppressed Hong Kong like a middle east dictatorship, they wanted to have an extradition deal with Hong Kong government which is normal for countries like the US and Canada to have. In the end they backtracked, but protests became more violent with separatism as main objective. Hong Kong is part of China, not a sovereign entity, just with more autonomy compared to mainland China. Majority of Chinese also support their government oppressive as it is.
You should educate yourself on the topic, unlike Spain China is a totalitarian state were the governing body does whatever they want to whomever they want, it is not fettered by the law only by the whims of its supreme leader.
The bills original intent was for China to be allowed extradition of anyone suspected of a crime in China. Sounds almost like a rule that would a allow a fickle dictatorship to get their hands of whomever they wanted in Hong Kong and then do whatever they wanted to them. Just as they do with the citizens of mainland China.
Catalonia and Spain are so far off its not even funny.
Spain shares the similar value with you, so you think everything Spain have done for Catalonia can be justified, China does share the similar value of political system, so what they have done is all evil move. What a freedom.
It's funny because no one supported Catalonia to this extent when they after a referendum voted to leave Spain... It's not like CCP oppressed Hong Kong like a middle east dictatorship, they wanted to have an extradition deal with Hong Kong government which is normal for countries like the US and Canada to have. In the end they backtracked, but protests became more violent with separatism as main objective. Hong Kong is part of China, not a sovereign entity, just with more autonomy compared to mainland China. Majority of Chinese also support their government oppressive as it is.
You should educate yourself on the topic, unlike Spain China is a totalitarian state were the governing body does whatever they want to whomever they want, it is not fettered by the law only by the whims of its supreme leader.
The bills original intent was for China to be allowed extradition of anyone suspected of a crime in China. Sounds almost like a rule that would a allow a fickle dictatorship to get their hands of whomever they wanted in Hong Kong and then do whatever they wanted to them. Just as they do with the citizens of mainland China.
Catalonia and Spain are so far off its not even funny.
Spain shares the similar value with you, so you think everything Spain have done for Catalonia can be justified, China does share the similar value of political system, so what they have done is all evil move. What a freedom.
Being allowed to think that is a freedom. Catalonia has political elections where they people you can vote for is not appointed from the central government (for China that is against a treaty but being done). If they want to they can vote for a party that wants to get out from Spain and implement a vote for that action. If done Spain would release them but hate having to do it. Spain would also use its political power to not let them into EU and punish them for moving out of their union.
Hong Kong can't vote to get out of China. The vote will not be allowed to be held. Stop of process.
Spain would of course use soft power and (sadly) even some hard power to effect the vote but not stop the movement forcefully. Chain would if it got to that stage.
It's funny because no one supported Catalonia to this extent when they after a referendum voted to leave Spain... It's not like CCP oppressed Hong Kong like a middle east dictatorship, they wanted to have an extradition deal with Hong Kong government which is normal for countries like the US and Canada to have. In the end they backtracked, but protests became more violent with separatism as main objective. Hong Kong is part of China, not a sovereign entity, just with more autonomy compared to mainland China. Majority of Chinese also support their government oppressive as it is.
You should educate yourself on the topic, unlike Spain China is a totalitarian state were the governing body does whatever they want to whomever they want, it is not fettered by the law only by the whims of its supreme leader.
The bills original intent was for China to be allowed extradition of anyone suspected of a crime in China. Sounds almost like a rule that would a allow a fickle dictatorship to get their hands of whomever they wanted in Hong Kong and then do whatever they wanted to them. Just as they do with the citizens of mainland China.
Catalonia and Spain are so far off its not even funny.
Spain shares the similar value with you, so you think everything Spain have done for Catalonia can be justified, China does share the similar value of political system, so what they have done is all evil move. What a freedom.
Being allowed to think that is a freedom. Catalonia has political elections where they people you can vote for is not appointed from the central government (for China that is against a treaty but being done). If they want to they can vote for a party that wants to get out from Spain and implement a vote for that action. If done Spain would release them but hate having to do it. Spain would also use its political power to not let them into EU and punish them for moving out of their union.
Hong Kong can't vote to get out of China. The vote will not be allowed to be held. Stop of process.
Spain would of course use soft power and (sadly) even some hard power to effect the vote but not stop the movement forcefully. Chain would if it got to that stage.
Errr "if done Spain would release them etc etc etc". So what happened in 2017 was…..Spain accepting and allowing such a thing to take place? Did not seem like it at all.
On October 11 2019 18:50 just-pick-warren wrote: Two things I find surprising here:
1. The amount of Tlers who are with Blizzard / China on this are exceptionally high, compared to other forums. 2. The audacity of Blizzard to say politics have no place in their games.
Probably because posters on this website tend to be older and more mature... I remember being a young, outraged, hotheaded teen, but age tends to give one the ability to understand the validity of multiple view points. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I'm correct and you're wrong.
International sporting competitions have to be apolitical to survive. Think of the Olympics and FIFA. Would they allow athletes to hold up signs or make statements that support a revolutionary separatist movement in a UN recognized nation?
I am personally sympathetic with the Hong Kong protest movement (They are culturally separate from mainland China and don't even speak the same language), but I am disgusted by people ruining my sporting events by bringing their political tribalism to the event. Let's just enjoy the event and discus politics later over a beer.
On October 12 2019 03:11 Dangermousecatdog wrote: The event was over. It was a winners post-match interview. Is that not the equivalent of discussing politics later over a beer?
It's the equivalent of holding up the trophy and shouting "Revolution! Down with China!" into the TV camera. Very unprofessional, divisive and tribalistic...
On October 11 2019 18:50 just-pick-warren wrote: Two things I find surprising here:
1. The amount of Tlers who are with Blizzard / China on this are exceptionally high, compared to other forums. 2. The audacity of Blizzard to say politics have no place in their games.
Probably because posters on this website tend to be older and more mature... I remember being a young, outraged, hotheaded teen, but age tends to give one the ability to understand the validity of multiple view points. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I'm correct and you're wrong.
International sporting competitions have to be apolitical to survive. Think of the Olympics and FIFA. Would they allow athletes to hold up signs or make statements that support a revolutionary separatist movement in a UN recognized nation?
I am personally sympathetic with the Hong Kong protest movement (They are culturally separate from mainland China and don't even speak the same language), but I am disgusted by people ruining my sporting events by bringing their political tribalism to the event. Let's just enjoy the event and discus politics later over a beer.
Both of the Olympics and FIFA only push a lack of politics upon individual personal expression of politics.
On the state level not so much, nothing new either.
The likes of the Gulf States and China and Russia can use international sport as a propaganda vehicle, but god forbid any individual athlete speak their mind on a political issue.
I’m finally stable enough and with the income to travel to a football World Cup next time it’s around, a lifelong dream of mine and wow it’s in fucking Qatar where indentured servants literally died building their stadiums and homosexuality is illegal. Fantastic!
All ‘keep politics out of sport’ means in effect is the little guy doesn’t have a voice, the powerful are already well, well represented there.
Imagine being a lifelong supporter of Manchester City, or Paris Saint Germain only to have such a social institution become a loss-making advertisement for the Emirati that they aren’t such bad folks really.
On October 11 2019 18:50 just-pick-warren wrote: Two things I find surprising here:
1. The amount of Tlers who are with Blizzard / China on this are exceptionally high, compared to other forums. 2. The audacity of Blizzard to say politics have no place in their games.
Probably because posters on this website tend to be older and more mature... I remember being a young, outraged, hotheaded teen, but age tends to give one the ability to understand the validity of multiple view points. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I'm correct and you're wrong.
International sporting competitions have to be apolitical to survive. Think of the Olympics and FIFA. Would they allow athletes to hold up signs or make statements that support a revolutionary separatist movement in a UN recognized nation?
I am personally sympathetic with the Hong Kong protest movement (They are culturally separate from mainland China and don't even speak the same language), but I am disgusted by people ruining my sporting events by bringing their political tribalism to the event. Let's just enjoy the event and discus politics later over a beer.
Both of the Olympics and FIFA only push a lack of politics upon individual personal expression of politics.
On the state level not so much, nothing new either.
The likes of the Gulf States and China and Russia can use international sport as a propaganda vehicle, but god forbid any individual athlete speak their mind on a political issue.
I’m finally stable enough and with the income to travel to a football World Cup next time it’s around, a lifelong dream of mine and wow it’s in fucking Qatar where indentured servants literally died building their stadiums and homosexuality is illegal. Fantastic!
All ‘keep politics out of sport’ means in effect is the little guy doesn’t have a voice, the powerful are already well, well represented there.
Imagine being a lifelong supporter of Manchester City, or Paris Saint Germain only to have such a social institution become a loss-making advertisement for the Emirati that they aren’t such bad folks really.
How does Blizzard saying that they don't want to support a Chinese revolution on their official stream equate to Blizzard saying that the very same athlete can't do it on their own personal stream??? Do you really want to listen to Chinese athletes cry "One China!" on blizzard's streams???
On October 11 2019 18:50 just-pick-warren wrote: Two things I find surprising here:
1. The amount of Tlers who are with Blizzard / China on this are exceptionally high, compared to other forums. 2. The audacity of Blizzard to say politics have no place in their games.
Probably because posters on this website tend to be older and more mature... I remember being a young, outraged, hotheaded teen, but age tends to give one the ability to understand the validity of multiple view points. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I'm correct and you're wrong.
International sporting competitions have to be apolitical to survive. Think of the Olympics and FIFA. Would they allow athletes to hold up signs or make statements that support a revolutionary separatist movement in a UN recognized nation?
I am personally sympathetic with the Hong Kong protest movement (They are culturally separate from mainland China and don't even speak the same language), but I am disgusted by people ruining my sporting events by bringing their political tribalism to the event. Let's just enjoy the event and discus politics later over a beer.
Both of the Olympics and FIFA only push a lack of politics upon individual personal expression of politics.
On the state level not so much, nothing new either.
The likes of the Gulf States and China and Russia can use international sport as a propaganda vehicle, but god forbid any individual athlete speak their mind on a political issue.
I’m finally stable enough and with the income to travel to a football World Cup next time it’s around, a lifelong dream of mine and wow it’s in fucking Qatar where indentured servants literally died building their stadiums and homosexuality is illegal. Fantastic!
All ‘keep politics out of sport’ means in effect is the little guy doesn’t have a voice, the powerful are already well, well represented there.
Imagine being a lifelong supporter of Manchester City, or Paris Saint Germain only to have such a social institution become a loss-making advertisement for the Emirati that they aren’t such bad folks really.
How does Blizzard saying that they don't want to support a Chinese revolution on their official stream equate to Blizzard saying that the very same athlete can't do it on their own personal stream??? Do you really want to listen to Chinese athletes cry "One China!" on blizzard's streams???
This argument does not fly, when Blizzard consistently punished their players for what they said on their personal streams before.
On October 12 2019 03:11 Dangermousecatdog wrote: The event was over. It was a winners post-match interview. Is that not the equivalent of discussing politics later over a beer?
It's the equivalent of holding up the trophy and shouting "Revolution! Down with China!" into the TV camera. Very unprofessional, divisive and tribalistic...
Outside a Trump rally last night protestors were waving flags of China. So China has its supporters.
The 1972 Summit Series occurred between Canada (free country) and the USSR ( communist dictatorship). Canada lost a game in Vancouver, Canada making the series 2-1-1 in favour of the U.S.S.R. After the game Canadian hockey fans were chanting "Communism Is Best" they were cheering in favour of the U.S.S.R. Lots of Canadians thought it was awesome that Pierre Trudeau was great friends with Dictator Fidel Castro.
There are North Americans who love communist dictatorships and its been that way for a while. People try to say this is some new extremist phenomenon `created by Trump`. I disagree. I say... same shit different decade. The people screaming about how "horribly extreme everything has become" ... are prisoners of the moment.
I think we're going to see Blizzard try to make some compromise statement that talks about how both China and Hong Kong are great places and the people of both places are great. Blizzard will state they hope China and Hong Kong can work together better in the future in order to improve the lives of all citizens of both places.
This was a very controversial image in its day in 1936. German Olympic Athlete throwing his hand up in the Nazi Salute in protest during the Star Spangled Banner when a black American man took gold.
Was it in poor taste? Certainly. Did it offend a large group of people. Yes and no. Depends on your geography during that era. Some praised him, others were horrified. Were the Tournament Olympic Organizers upset about it? I’m sure they were, it WAS in POOR taste and I’m sure not very sportsman like and I’m sure there were rules against it.
But Was the Athlete punished? No. He was allowed to say his piece, or show his dissatisfaction in a sense, without losing his medal or being thrown out of the Olympics.
So despite what was going on in the world at that time. Aryan Supremacy and all that. People still had the FREEDOM of speech to express, one way or the other, without fear of punishment. Does this mean people want to see a guy yelling something radical every single game or sports event or competition? I’m sure many people don’t want to but that does not give anyone the right the remove that individuals right to SAYING something. Even if you or I do or do not agree with it.
What Activision Blizzard and China are doing is removing ANY and ALL FREEDOM of speech and going so far as to punish those that try to express that freedom. That is where I am opposed and encourage others to not let this stand.
What this is about, in my mind, is not what is happening in Hong Kong. Yes, it is in the news and many Westerners support the protesters but what else can we do? It’s terrible what is happening. It shouldn’t be happening. Much like what happened in Germany before World War 2.
But what has really gotten people riled up in the West and what I feel this is TRUELY about is Blitz’s FREEDOM to voice his dissatisfaction and being punished for it and this is where the majority of the world is not going to stand idly by and let that happen. We shouldn’t let it happen and God have mercy on us for whenever the day comes people are willing to give up that Freedom without a fight. This is something that many of us actually can make a difference by deleting our accounts, stop buying Activision Blizzard products and even going as far as to opposed products from China.
To recap. This is about the suppression of people being able to have a voice and being heard. Even if it isn’t a message some people want to hear, people should still have the freedom to say it without consequences. Those that seek to eliminate that freedom should be the ones punished.
Activision Blizzard and China... you deserve all the hate being thrown your way right now.
On October 12 2019 03:11 Dangermousecatdog wrote: The event was over. It was a winners post-match interview. Is that not the equivalent of discussing politics later over a beer?
It's the equivalent of holding up the trophy and shouting "Revolution! Down with China!" into the TV camera. Very unprofessional, divisive and tribalistic...
Outside a Trump rally last night protestors were waving flags of China. So China has its supporters.
The 1972 Summit Series occurred between Canada (free country) and the USSR ( communist dictatorship). Canada lost a game in Vancouver, Canada making the series 2-1-1 in favour of the U.S.S.R. After the game Canadian hockey fans were chanting "Communism Is Best" they were cheering in favour of the U.S.S.R. Lots of Canadians thought it was awesome that Pierre Trudeau was great friends with Dictator Fidel Castro.
There are North Americans who love communist dictatorships and its been that way for a while. People try to say this is some new extremist phenomenon `created by Trump`. I disagree. I say... same shit different decade. The people screaming about how "horribly extreme everything has become" ... are prisoners of the moment.
Same shit different decade. We're approaching same shit, different century.
This is an extreme case of repression and violence in Hong Kong. Besides Hong Kong, the other cases at this extreme are the plight of citizens of Venezuela and North Korea. I don't fault any South American team shouting, "I stand with the people of Venezuela! Freedom for Venezuela!" The situation is not the same as some general rule against chatting about politics. These are the worldwide events and oppression that should transcend such boundaries, and you can tell that the majority do recognize that they're above such boundaries.
When it's merely a political difference of opinion, the responsibility and greater claim of right shifts to the tournament organizers. Some Canadian winner's podium is not where you shout "FUCK TRUDEAU." The owners of the tournament have the larger interest in keeping the tourney sponsor-friendly and young-viewer-friendly, compared to censorship of political opinion. (And if public criticism of the government was banned in some dystopian future, the comparative interest shifts again).
I haven't seen any honest argument to treat this as an example of keeping politics out of gaming, or that the speech itself was too extreme. Cut away the intentional downplaying of police/military/gang oppression, cut away absurd comparisons to 1839 Opium Wars, and is there really some sane argument I've missed?
This was a very controversial image in its day in 1936. German Olympic Athlete throwing his hand up in the Nazi Salute in protest during the Star Spangled Banner when a black American man took gold.
Was it in poor taste? Certainly. Did it offend a large group of people. Yes and no. Depends on your geography during that era. Some praised him, others were horrified. Was the Athlete punished? No. He was allowed to say his piece, or show his dissatisfaction in a sense, without losing his medal or being thrown out of the Olympics.
So despite what was going on in the world at that time. Aryan Supremacy and all that. People still had the FREEDOM of speech to express, one way or the other, without fear of punishment.
What Activision Blizzard and China are doing is removing ANY and ALL FREEDOM of speech and going so far as to punish those that try to express that freedom. That is where I am opposed and encourage others to not let this stand.
What this is about, in my mind, is not what is happening in Hong Kong. It’s terrible what is happening. It shouldn’t be happening. Much like what happened in Germany before World War 2.
But what this is TRUELY about is Blitz’s FREEDOM to voice his dissatisfaction and being punished for it and this is where the majority of the world is not going to stand idly by and let that happen. We shouldn’t let it happen and God have mercy on us for whenever the day comes people are willing to give up that Freedom without a fight.
To recap. This is about the suppression of people being able to have a voice and being heard. Even if it isn’t a message some people want to hear, people should still have the freedom to say it without consequences. Those that seek to eliminate that freedom should be the ones punished.
Activision Blizzard and China... you deserve all the hate being thrown your way right now.
You are confusing the corporatization of sports in particular with a general degradation of freedom of speech. No, people weren't free to dissent without fear of punishment in the 30s, murdering the opposition was en vogue in Europe at the time.
Paid TV/radio ads were a new concept (if they even existed?) in 1936, whereas now the IOC earns almost all of its multi-billion revenue from broadcasting rights. FIFA/UEFA as well, just 15-20 years ago it was not unusual for players to display a shirt with political or religious messaging after scoring without getting sanctioned, while now there are fines plus cards issued for that. And sure enough, a club might get a bigger fine for its supporters displaying a political banner that offends a certain market than for its supporters making monkey chants at a black player.
Few people would have batted an eye if Blizzard fined Blitz 10% of his tournament prize money for his comment. As cynical as it may sound, their only mistake was not weighing the PR loss vs local market appeasement as well as experienced sports federations do.
On October 12 2019 06:48 Dan HH wrote:And sure enough, a club might get a bigger fine for its supporters displaying a political banner that offends a certain market than for its supporters making monkey chants at a black player.
meh, Fans were chanting "Gorilla" at a black UFC fighter at a UFC event I attended in New York without a problem. no ejections. no interaction from security. nothing. I don't think its that big of a deal. However, I think if you have a sign that says "Abortion Is Murder" you'll be dealt with a lot more harshly and deservedly so.
It's funny because no one supported Catalonia to this extent when they after a referendum voted to leave Spain... It's not like CCP oppressed Hong Kong like a middle east dictatorship, they wanted to have an extradition deal with Hong Kong government which is normal for countries like the US and Canada to have. In the end they backtracked, but protests became more violent with separatism as main objective. Hong Kong is part of China, not a sovereign entity, just with more autonomy compared to mainland China. Majority of Chinese also support their government oppressive as it is.
You should educate yourself on the topic, unlike Spain China is a totalitarian state were the governing body does whatever they want to whomever they want, it is not fettered by the law only by the whims of its supreme leader.
The bills original intent was for China to be allowed extradition of anyone suspected of a crime in China. Sounds almost like a rule that would a allow a fickle dictatorship to get their hands of whomever they wanted in Hong Kong and then do whatever they wanted to them. Just as they do with the citizens of mainland China.
Catalonia and Spain are so far off its not even funny.
Spain shares the similar value with you, so you think everything Spain have done for Catalonia can be justified, China does share the similar value of political system, so what they have done is all evil move. What a freedom.
Being allowed to think that is a freedom. Catalonia has political elections where they people you can vote for is not appointed from the central government (for China that is against a treaty but being done). If they want to they can vote for a party that wants to get out from Spain and implement a vote for that action. If done Spain would release them but hate having to do it. Spain would also use its political power to not let them into EU and punish them for moving out of their union.
Hong Kong can't vote to get out of China. The vote will not be allowed to be held. Stop of process.
Spain would of course use soft power and (sadly) even some hard power to effect the vote but not stop the movement forcefully. Chain would if it got to that stage.
Errr "if done Spain would release them etc etc etc". So what happened in 2017 was…..Spain accepting and allowing such a thing to take place? Did not seem like it at all.
Ya seriously, that comment is weird as hell, especially since Spain said over and over that Catalonia DID NOT have the freedom to vote on his secession. Basicly no country allow peacefull independance, Italy didn't when a part of the north voted for independance, Australia neither, most EU country said it's not an option, Canada never said they would have given Quebec independance if the vote had pass.
England is pretty much the only country that has open tho dors to democratic independance, altought we will see when/if Scotland goes throught. (well and Czechoslovakia I guess but that was a another context)
Not saying we shouldn't militate for independance, just that it's not exactly a right here neither.
This was a very controversial image in its day in 1936. German Olympic Athlete throwing his hand up in the Nazi Salute in protest during the Star Spangled Banner when a black American man took gold.
Was it in poor taste? Certainly. Did it offend a large group of people. Yes and no. Depends on your geography during that era. Some praised him, others were horrified. Were the Tournament Olympic Organizers upset about it? I’m sure they were, it WAS in POOR taste and I’m sure not very sportsman like and I’m sure there were rules against it.
But Was the Athlete punished? No. He was allowed to say his piece, or show his dissatisfaction in a sense, without losing his medal or being thrown out of the Olympics.
So despite what was going on in the world at that time. Aryan Supremacy and all that. People still had the FREEDOM of speech to express, one way or the other, without fear of punishment. Does this mean people want to see a guy yelling something radical every single game or sports event or competition? I’m sure many people don’t want to but that does not give anyone the right the remove that individuals right to SAYING something. Even if you or I do or do not agree with it.
What Activision Blizzard and China are doing is removing ANY and ALL FREEDOM of speech and going so far as to punish those that try to express that freedom. That is where I am opposed and encourage others to not let this stand.
What this is about, in my mind, is not what is happening in Hong Kong. Yes, it is in the news and many Westerners support the protesters but what else can we do? It’s terrible what is happening. It shouldn’t be happening. Much like what happened in Germany before World War 2.
But what has really gotten people riled up in the West and what I feel this is TRUELY about is Blitz’s FREEDOM to voice his dissatisfaction and being punished for it and this is where the majority of the world is not going to stand idly by and let that happen. We shouldn’t let it happen and God have mercy on us for whenever the day comes people are willing to give up that Freedom without a fight. This is something that many of us actually can make a difference by deleting our accounts, stop buying Activision Blizzard products and even going as far as to opposed products from China.
To recap. This is about the suppression of people being able to have a voice and being heard. Even if it isn’t a message some people want to hear, people should still have the freedom to say it without consequences. Those that seek to eliminate that freedom should be the ones punished.
Activision Blizzard and China... you deserve all the hate being thrown your way right now.
This wasn't an unforeseeable situation. It has been perfectly clear and widely stated for many years that China's major media companies -- like Tencent (which owns 4.9% of Activision Blizzard and just partnered with it to launch Call of Duty Mobile, likely to be the most important product launch of the year for the company) and NetEase (which operates Blizzard's games in China), are not independent free-market enterprises in the way we would understand them in the rest of the world, but rather remain closely tied to the Chinese state and the ruling party. The hyper-sensitive and tantrum-prone nature of contemporary Chinese nationalism, too, is not some esoteric knowledge guarded by an ancient sect of monks somewhere up a hidden mountain; it's been clear as day for all to see for years.
Continue from yesterday, but this is not a topic I am willing to let go of:
Every day that goes by without a statement from TL is a day where I continue to be disappointed. I really would have thought TL would have more backbone than this. I don't accept that it gets to hide behind the guise of "everyone should be free to voice their opinion separately", because A: That doesn't bring any force behind it and B: TL has no problems standing up for something when there is little to no repercussions for doing so.
Due to their pro teams, players and large community, TL as a company has large sway over the esports environment. It would be fantastically sad if they didn't make use of it when it suddenly became inconvenient to stand up for your claimed beliefs.
I haven't seen any honest argument to treat this as an example of keeping politics out of gaming, or that the speech itself was too extreme. Cut away the intentional downplaying of police/military/gang oppression, cut away absurd comparisons to 1839 Opium Wars, and is there really some sane argument I've missed?
I don't think you understand how sensitive the Chinese are about Taiwan, Hong Kong, Tibet, and the South China Sea. I tried talking to my Chinese father-in-law about why the Chinese decided to support North Korea over South Korea in the 1950s and he was instantly offended by the question. Trying to talk about Hong Kong and Taiwan are even worse. The Chinese have a very strong sense of national pride and are extremely sensitive to any perceived slight to their national identity. (Just look at their reaction to the NBA) This is a BIG deal to the Chinese, despite the fact that you could care less about it...
I haven't seen any honest argument to treat this as an example of keeping politics out of gaming, or that the speech itself was too extreme. Cut away the intentional downplaying of police/military/gang oppression, cut away absurd comparisons to 1839 Opium Wars, and is there really some sane argument I've missed?
I don't think you understand how sensitive the Chinese are about Taiwan, Hong Kong, Tibet, and the South China Sea. I tried talking to my Chinese father-in-law about why the Chinese decided to support North Korea over South Korea in the 1950s and he was instantly offended by the question. Trying to talk about Hong Kong and Taiwan are even worse. The Chinese have a very strong sense of national pride and are extremely sensitive to any perceived slight to their national identity. (Just look at their reaction to the NBA) This is a BIG deal to the Chinese, despite the fact that you could care less about it...
I’m pretty sure people here do understand that, just don’t overly care about it.
I don’t have an issue with the Chinese feeling such ways on such matters, until those sensitivities impinge on other established values that exist in the West, on Westerners.
I’m a fiercely loyal person in my personal life but if my friend is being a piece of shit I’ll tell them about it. Extrapolated to national pride that’s my attitude there, and at least in my experience largely the attitude of folks in my cultural sphere.
I don't remember who it was, but a Starcraft player once did a political victory ceremony regarding some island (disputed by china/japan?), declaring it belonged to korea.
Nothing happened to him.
Rules regarding political statements are unclear and inconsistent.
On October 12 2019 08:55 Pangpootata wrote: I don't remember who it was, but a Starcraft player once did a political victory ceremony regarding some island (disputed by china/japan?), declaring it belonged to korea.
Nothing happened to him.
Rules regarding political statements are unclear and inconsistent.
MKP if I’m remembering correctly.
It is important to note that in that era SC2 had a lot of tournaments run by third parties, now the landscape is very different and Blizzard are bankrolling and running a whole circuit and are basically the only entity in the scene.
I haven't seen any honest argument to treat this as an example of keeping politics out of gaming, or that the speech itself was too extreme. Cut away the intentional downplaying of police/military/gang oppression, cut away absurd comparisons to 1839 Opium Wars, and is there really some sane argument I've missed?
I don't think you understand how sensitive the Chinese are about Taiwan, Hong Kong, Tibet, and the South China Sea. I tried talking to my Chinese father-in-law about why the Chinese decided to support North Korea over South Korea in the 1950s and he was instantly offended by the question. Trying to talk about Hong Kong and Taiwan are even worse. The Chinese have a very strong sense of national pride and are extremely sensitive to any perceived slight to their national identity. (Just look at their reaction to the NBA) This is a BIG deal to the Chinese, despite the fact that you could care less about it...
Well, I get you on one level. I observe a pattern of a certain nationality bristling at some of the most mundane shit. Someone accidentally says the country of Taiwan, and some major Chinese figure takes out every form of leverage he can muster and demand an immediate retraction. Some protest or rally happens in Tibet, and the Chinese government calls the Dalai Lama a wolf and a monster and possessing no human heart. I observe this pattern of behavior. Wow, are Chinese in positions of power or influence touchy!
That part's old. The second part is just as old. Someone with a hierarchy over them will fear firing if they say anything critical of the Chinese system or actions. Unless you're the highest boss of a private organization and/or independently wealthy, you're vulnerable. The CPC takes this to an extreme, and will even jail or disappear your family or send thugs to warn them, if you're overseas with family back home.
This is the behavior of thugs and tyrants. Their power preserves their insane foibles. Unless the Chinese government is directly wielding power over your friends and relatives, why are you here complying with the most insane shit? Why are you rationalizing? You're on this forum justifying the most idiotic CPC policy drawing from lines like the Opium Wars and colonialism? Am I missing something? The old standbys of brainwashing, idiocy, or myopic nationalism are explanations, but I don't want to go to them unless I've really rejected all the other ones. God knows my minority viewpoints on religion and civil rights are relentlessly strawmanned into those categories on the internet.
So my hypothesis is the myopic nationalism. China is the largest extent to their historical empire, and any threats to redefine that or break off from it by force must be opposed with every cell in one's body. Any explanation, however frail, should be conjured to confuse the issue or waste time. The US and allies are the major global hegemon, so might as well make that the only struggle that matters.
On October 12 2019 08:55 Pangpootata wrote: I don't remember who it was, but a Starcraft player once did a political victory ceremony regarding some island (disputed by china/japan?), declaring it belonged to korea.
Nothing happened to him.
Rules regarding political statements are unclear and inconsistent.
MKP if I’m remembering correctly.
It is important to note that in that era SC2 had a lot of tournaments run by third parties, now the landscape is very different and Blizzard are bankrolling and running a whole circuit and are basically the only entity in the scene.
Because Morhaime was in charge at that time but it also could be because MKP s act was not really against korea government
I haven't seen any honest argument to treat this as an example of keeping politics out of gaming, or that the speech itself was too extreme. Cut away the intentional downplaying of police/military/gang oppression, cut away absurd comparisons to 1839 Opium Wars, and is there really some sane argument I've missed?
I don't think you understand how sensitive the Chinese are about Taiwan, Hong Kong, Tibet, and the South China Sea. I tried talking to my Chinese father-in-law about why the Chinese decided to support North Korea over South Korea in the 1950s and he was instantly offended by the question. Trying to talk about Hong Kong and Taiwan are even worse. The Chinese have a very strong sense of national pride and are extremely sensitive to any perceived slight to their national identity. (Just look at their reaction to the NBA) This is a BIG deal to the Chinese, despite the fact that you could care less about it...
Well, I get you on one level. I observe a pattern of a certain nationality bristling at some of the most mundane shit. Someone accidentally says the country of Taiwan, and some major Chinese figure takes out every form of leverage he can muster and demand an immediate retraction. Some protest or rally happens in Tibet, and the Chinese government calls the Dalai Lama a wolf and a monster and possessing no human heart. I observe this pattern of behavior. Wow, are Chinese in positions of power or influence touchy!
That part's old. The second part is just as old. Someone with a hierarchy over them will fear firing if they say anything critical of the Chinese system or actions. Unless you're the highest boss of a private organization and/or independently wealthy, you're vulnerable. The CPC takes this to an extreme, and will even jail or disappear your family or send thugs to warn them, if you're overseas with family back home.
This is the behavior of thugs and tyrants. Their power preserves their insane foibles. Unless the Chinese government is directly wielding power over your friends and relatives, why are you here complying with the most insane shit? Why are you rationalizing? You're on this forum justifying the most idiotic CPC policy drawing from lines like the Opium Wars and colonialism? Am I missing something? The old standbys of brainwashing, idiocy, or myopic nationalism are explanations, but I don't want to go to them unless I've really rejected all the other ones. God knows my minority viewpoints on religion and civil rights are relentlessly strawmanned into those categories on the internet.
So my hypothesis is the myopic nationalism. China is the largest extent to their historical empire, and any threats to redefine that or break off from it by force must be opposed with every cell in one's body. Any explanation, however frail, should be conjured to confuse the issue or waste time. The US and allies are the major global hegemon, so might as well make that the only struggle that matters.
You just imagine about China and believe in your imagination. Talking about Dalia Lama issue, Chinese government never said he is evil/monster etc, all Chinese people just know he want the Tibet’s independence. In fact, from the public report from Chinese Official Media, they declared many times that they are willing to talk and welcome Dalai Lama if he gives up his appeal on the independence of Tibet. The CCP just don’t accept the independence and nothing else. Please don’t think Chinese people are all dumb like pig and you are the smartest.
The East Asians share similar culture and we are very sensitive about the territory issue, that’s why MVP did his announcement in the past and Chinese people are easy to be offended when talking about independence/territory issue etc. If NBA declares that they support Diaoyu Island belongs to China, Japanese will definitely have a strong response. Yes indeed after Xi became the chairman, his internal policy have made people become even more sensitive (which is not a good sign), but it doesn’t mean that people are stupid and know nothing.
It's funny because no one supported Catalonia to this extent when they after a referendum voted to leave Spain... It's not like CCP oppressed Hong Kong like a middle east dictatorship, they wanted to have an extradition deal with Hong Kong government which is normal for countries like the US and Canada to have. In the end they backtracked, but protests became more violent with separatism as main objective. Hong Kong is part of China, not a sovereign entity, just with more autonomy compared to mainland China. Majority of Chinese also support their government oppressive as it is.
You should educate yourself on the topic, unlike Spain China is a totalitarian state were the governing body does whatever they want to whomever they want, it is not fettered by the law only by the whims of its supreme leader.
The bills original intent was for China to be allowed extradition of anyone suspected of a crime in China. Sounds almost like a rule that would a allow a fickle dictatorship to get their hands of whomever they wanted in Hong Kong and then do whatever they wanted to them. Just as they do with the citizens of mainland China.
Catalonia and Spain are so far off its not even funny.
Spain shares the similar value with you, so you think everything Spain have done for Catalonia can be justified, China does share the similar value of political system, so what they have done is all evil move. What a freedom.
Being allowed to think that is a freedom. Catalonia has political elections where they people you can vote for is not appointed from the central government (for China that is against a treaty but being done). If they want to they can vote for a party that wants to get out from Spain and implement a vote for that action. If done Spain would release them but hate having to do it. Spain would also use its political power to not let them into EU and punish them for moving out of their union.
Hong Kong can't vote to get out of China. The vote will not be allowed to be held. Stop of process.
Spain would of course use soft power and (sadly) even some hard power to effect the vote but not stop the movement forcefully. Chain would if it got to that stage.
Are you lost your mind??? Spain admit the voting result and release??? Wow... for the entire world, I just heard UK allows Scotland to have such vote and admit the result, just UK. Independence is a big issue to every Country. Support HK’s independence is definitely an offence to China, the only question is when China overreact such issue, what the company shall do.
I haven't seen any honest argument to treat this as an example of keeping politics out of gaming, or that the speech itself was too extreme. Cut away the intentional downplaying of police/military/gang oppression, cut away absurd comparisons to 1839 Opium Wars, and is there really some sane argument I've missed?
I don't think you understand how sensitive the Chinese are about Taiwan, Hong Kong, Tibet, and the South China Sea. I tried talking to my Chinese father-in-law about why the Chinese decided to support North Korea over South Korea in the 1950s and he was instantly offended by the question. Trying to talk about Hong Kong and Taiwan are even worse. The Chinese have a very strong sense of national pride and are extremely sensitive to any perceived slight to their national identity. (Just look at their reaction to the NBA) This is a BIG deal to the Chinese, despite the fact that you could care less about it...
Well, I get you on one level. I observe a pattern of a certain nationality bristling at some of the most mundane shit. Someone accidentally says the country of Taiwan, and some major Chinese figure takes out every form of leverage he can muster and demand an immediate retraction. Some protest or rally happens in Tibet, and the Chinese government calls the Dalai Lama a wolf and a monster and possessing no human heart. I observe this pattern of behavior. Wow, are Chinese in positions of power or influence touchy!
That part's old. The second part is just as old. Someone with a hierarchy over them will fear firing if they say anything critical of the Chinese system or actions. Unless you're the highest boss of a private organization and/or independently wealthy, you're vulnerable. The CPC takes this to an extreme, and will even jail or disappear your family or send thugs to warn them, if you're overseas with family back home.
This is the behavior of thugs and tyrants. Their power preserves their insane foibles. Unless the Chinese government is directly wielding power over your friends and relatives, why are you here complying with the most insane shit? Why are you rationalizing? You're on this forum justifying the most idiotic CPC policy drawing from lines like the Opium Wars and colonialism? Am I missing something? The old standbys of brainwashing, idiocy, or myopic nationalism are explanations, but I don't want to go to them unless I've really rejected all the other ones. God knows my minority viewpoints on religion and civil rights are relentlessly strawmanned into those categories on the internet.
So my hypothesis is the myopic nationalism. China is the largest extent to their historical empire, and any threats to redefine that or break off from it by force must be opposed with every cell in one's body. Any explanation, however frail, should be conjured to confuse the issue or waste time. The US and allies are the major global hegemon, so might as well make that the only struggle that matters.
You just imagine about China and believe in your imagination. Talking about Dalia Lama issue, Chinese government never said he is evil/monster etc, all Chinese people just know he want the Tibet’s independence. In fact, from the public report from Chinese Official Media, they declared many times that they are willing to talk and welcome Dalai Lama if he gives up his appeal on the independence of Tibet. The CCP just don’t accept the independence and nothing else. Please don’t think Chinese people are all dumb like pig and you are the smartest.
The East Asians share similar culture and we are very sensitive about the territory issue, that’s why MVP did his announcement in the past and Chinese people are easy to be offended when talking about independence/territory issue etc. If NBA declares that they support Diaoyu Island belongs to China, Japanese will definitely have a strong response. Yes indeed after Xi became the chairman, his internal policy have made people become even more sensitive (which is not a good sign), but it doesn’t mean that people are stupid and know nothing.
If Japan had anything close to a "strong response," as the CPC defines the scale of strong responses, to an NBA figure talking about Diaoyu Island, I'd eat my sock and dance the weekend in a pink tutu in my downtown area.
The enforcement and means of kowtowing is particularly unique to the authoritarian government of China.
and we get Blizzard's late Friday response in order to dodge the news cycle. BlitzChung gets his prize money and they lowered the suspension from 12 months to 6 months. The 2 Casters terminations are reduced to suspensions of 6 months.
I suspect Blitzchung already agreed to this suspension reduction and agreed to take the prize money in exchange for accepting some blame .... so I'd expect that he'll accept some blame in a public statement.
I want to take a few minutes to talk to all of you about the Hearthstone Grandmasters tournament this past weekend. On Monday, we made the decision to take action against a player named blitzchung and two shoutcasters after the player shared his views on what’s happening in Hong Kong on our official broadcast channel.
At Blizzard, our vision is “to bring the world together through epic entertainment.” And we have core values that apply here: Think Globally; Lead Responsibly; and importantly, Every Voice Matters, encouraging everybody to share their point of view. The actions that we took over the weekend are causing people to question if we are still committed to these values. We absolutely are and I will explain.
Our esports programs are an expression of our vision and our values. Esports exist to create opportunities for players from around the world, from different cultures, and from different backgrounds, to come together to compete and share their passion for gaming. It is extremely important to us to protect these channels and the purpose they serve: to bring the world together through epic entertainment, celebrate our players, and build diverse and inclusive communities.
As to how those values apply in this case:
First, our official esports tournament broadcast was used as a platform for a winner of this event to share his views with the world.
We interview competitors who are at the top of their craft to share how they feel. We want to experience that moment with them. Hearing their excitement is a powerful way to bring us together.
Over the weekend, blitzchung used his segment to make a statement about the situation in Hong Kong—in violation of rules he acknowledged and understood, and this is why we took action.
Every Voice Matters, and we strongly encourage everyone in our community to share their viewpoints in the many places available to express themselves. However, the official broadcast needs to be about the tournament and to be a place where all are welcome. In support of that, we want to keep the official channels focused on the game.
Second, what is the role of shoutcasters for these broadcasts?
We hire shoutcasters to amplify the excitement of the game. They elevate the watchability and help the esports viewing experience stay focused on the tournament and our amazing players.
Third, were our actions based on the content of the message?
Part of Thinking Globally, Leading Responsibly, and Every Voice Matters is recognizing that we have players and fans in almost every country in the world. Our goal is to help players connect in areas of commonality, like their passion for our games, and create a sense of shared community.
The specific views expressed by blitzchung were NOT a factor in the decision we made. I want to be clear: our relationships in China had no influence on our decision.
We have these rules to keep the focus on the game and on the tournament to the benefit of a global audience, and that was the only consideration in the actions we took.
If this had been the opposing viewpoint delivered in the same divisive and deliberate way, we would have felt and acted the same.
OK, what could Blizzard have done better, and where do we go from here?
Over the past few days, many players, casters, esports fans, and employees have expressed concerns about how we determined the penalties. We’ve had a chance to pause, to listen to our community, and to reflect on what we could have done better. In hindsight, our process wasn’t adequate, and we reacted too quickly.
We want to ensure that we maintain a safe and inclusive environment for all our players, and that our rules and processes are clear. All of this is in service of another important Blizzard value—Play Nice; Play Fair.
In the tournament itself blitzchung *played* fair. We now believe he should receive his prizing. We understand that for some this is not about the prize, and perhaps for others it is disrespectful to even discuss it. That is not our intention.
But playing fair also includes appropriate pre-and post-match conduct, especially when a player accepts recognition for winning in a broadcast. When we think about the suspension, six months for blitzchung is more appropriate, after which time he can compete in the Hearthstone pro circuit again if he so chooses. There is a consequence for taking the conversation away from the purpose of the event and disrupting or derailing the broadcast.
With regard to the casters, remember their purpose is to keep the event focused on the tournament. That didn’t happen here, and we are setting their suspension to six months as well.
Moving forward, we will continue to apply tournament rules to ensure our official broadcasts remain focused on the game and are not a platform for divisive social or political views.
One of our goals at Blizzard is to make sure that every player, everywhere in the world, regardless of political views, religious beliefs, race, gender, or any other consideration always feels safe and welcome both competing in and playing our games.
At Blizzard, we are always listening and finding ways to improve—it is part of our culture. Thank you for your patience with us as we continue to learn.
Sincerely,
J. Allen Brack President of Blizzard Entertainment
On October 12 2019 09:16 Danglars wrote: So my hypothesis is the myopic nationalism. China is the largest extent to their historical empire, and any threats to redefine that or break off from it by force must be opposed with every cell in one's body. Any explanation, however frail, should be conjured to confuse the issue or waste time. The US and allies are the major global hegemon, so might as well make that the only struggle that matters.
That last sentence is pretty accurate. I think that many people in China and in other countries do consider the United States led world order to be the primary threat to their own livelihood and to human rights as well. For every person you'll find supporting the protesters in Hong Kong, you can probably find another that opposes them. Obviously the geographic distribution of opinions is non random and is influenced by each region's history and each persons background.
The specific views expressed by blitzchung were NOT a factor in the decision we made. I want to be clear: our relationships in China had no influence on our decision.
We have these rules to keep the focus on the game and on the tournament to the benefit of a global audience, and that was the only consideration in the actions we took.
Immediately taking away the prize money, doling out a one-year ban, and firing the casters is proof this wasn't decided for some nebulous concept of the "benefit of a global audience." Bad job covering your ass.
In the tournament itself blitzchung *played* fair. We now believe he should receive his prizing. We understand that for some this is not about the prize, and perhaps for others it is disrespectful to even discuss it. That is not our intention.
This is corporatese for seeing the size of the backlash, and realizing that the company's interest lay with pleasing its fans. Good good fun at this sudden realization that the prize should never had been on the line for his post-match support of the Hong Kong protesters.
One of our goals at Blizzard is to make sure that every player, everywhere in the world, regardless of political views, religious beliefs, race, gender, or any other consideration always feels safe and welcome both competing in and playing our games.
If this was really a legitimate goal, the bare minimum is weighing the consequences for a few days, and punishment in proportion to the crime. That's something in the neighborhood of a suspension of a couple weeks to a month, and a small fine, if we grant for the sake of argument that Blizzard has been consistent on political statements of any kind.
I'm kind of happy that they even made an overture to mea culpa. It acknowledges a mistake, albeit obfuscating the reason it was made and the repercussions to the broader community.
I'd say with 99% certainty the statement is at least partially written by a non-native english speaker. It is very clunky and oblique .. almost obtuse in certain parts. I'm pretty surprised Blizzard didn't pay several PR specialists to clean this up. I guess Blizzard's Chinese overlords would not permit any editing of the statement lest it change its meaning in any subtle way. This is hilarious stuff.
This was my first thought when reading this. I use to do some proofreading for asian friends when in college. The writing here just seems unusual for a statement coming from an American company
Statement just reaffirms everything that people have been saying for the last few days. If you're treating holocaust 2.0 etc as a "divisive social issue" then you're on the wrong side of history.
There is one important thing that people who defend Blizzard and/or China here are missing. Especially when they try to play the "this is a sensitive topic for the Chinese" card. The thing is that this is a sensitive topic for anyone who values western democracy. The reason why this is such a shitstorm is in a large part that it is about China. Because we are basically at war with China at this point. It's a war that is not fought with weapons (so fat) but with money.
China is systematically trying to impose their authoritarian views on the world using their money. So when this happens in a field we care about, we get angry. Nobody can demand that we judge China "fairly" or look at this incident in a vacuum and compare it to othsr aimilar incidents and react the same. No, China is the enemy right now and we should treat it like that. It's not about the fact that they ignore human rights and torture minorities, it's personal.
It's almost ironic that at the very same time of this fiasco, there is another China story in my hometown - the new mayor decided that he wants to exclude "we support one China" from the partnership agreement between Prague and Beijing. China went ballistic, the ambassador made official threats of withdrawing.this and that investment and everything with "Prague" in the name has been banned in china - concerts cancelled and similar stuff. What is even worse, the Czech president is deep in the ass of China, so he started even more threats - luckily he has no leverage on the city council.
This is how China works. Just recently they bought Solomon Islands by a lit of promise of investment to stop recongizing ROC. And worse things are happening in places we don't even see, such as Africa, which is poor enough that they buy it left and right. They are not only buying economical influence, but political and they insist that nobody who gets their money criticises them. This is simply not acceptable, I refuse to bow to a totalitarian regime again after my country suffered under some for the better part of the 20th century.
This is why it is OK to overreact here and why none of the "genuine chinese citizens showing us their views" should be given any consideration. This is a war and propaganda is a key weapon in it, let's treat it as such.
What a bizar statement by Blizzard to wake up to btw after all these days. You'd think leadership/ pr departments could do better than this. I guess this is what days of, I'm gonna say negotiations with Chinese bodies, have allowed them to say.
On October 12 2019 17:23 opisska wrote: There is one important thing that people who defend Blizzard and/or China here are missing. Especially when they try to play the "this is a sensitive topic for the Chinese" card. The thing is that this is a sensitive topic for anyone who values western democracy. The reason why this is such a shitstorm is in a large part that it is about China. Because we are basically at war with China at this point. It's a war that is not fought with weapons (so fat) but with money.
China is systematically trying to impose their authoritarian views on the world using their money. So when this happens in a field we care about, we get angry. Nobody can demand that we judge China "fairly" or look at this incident in a vacuum and compare it to othsr aimilar incidents and react the same. No, China is the enemy right now and we should treat it like that. It's not about the fact that they ignore human rights and torture minorities, it's personal.
It's almost ironic that at the very same time of this fiasco, there is another China story in my hometown - the new mayor decided that he wants to exclude "we support one China" from the partnership agreement between Prague and Beijing. China went ballistic, the ambassador made official threats of withdrawing.this and that investment and everything with "Prague" in the name has been banned in china - concerts cancelled and similar stuff. What is even worse, the Czech president is deep in the ass of China, so he started even more threats - luckily he has no leverage on the city council.
This is how China works. Just recently they bought Solomon Islands by a lit of promise of investment to stop recongizing ROC. And worse things are happening in places we don't even see, such as Africa, which is poor enough that they buy it left and right. They are not only buying economical influence, but political and they insist that nobody who gets their money criticises them. This is simply not acceptable, I refuse to bow to a totalitarian regime again after my country suffered under some for the better part of the 20th century.
This is why it is OK to overreact here and why none of the "genuine chinese citizens showing us their views" should be given any consideration. This is a war and propaganda is a key weapon in it, let's treat it as such.
“Anyway, RPC is totalitarian, so all his actions are wrong.ONLY our Western World of Democracy and Freedom can save world.What a Heroic epic！”You can write this in a more sensational way, and converge your intentions so that you can be an opinion leader.
On October 11 2019 18:50 just-pick-warren wrote: Two things I find surprising here:
1. The amount of Tlers who are with Blizzard / China on this are exceptionally high, compared to other forums. 2. The audacity of Blizzard to say politics have no place in their games.
Probably because posters on this website tend to be older and more mature... I remember being a young, outraged, hotheaded teen, but age tends to give one the ability to understand the validity of multiple view points. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I'm correct and you're wrong.
International sporting competitions have to be apolitical to survive. Think of the Olympics and FIFA. Would they allow athletes to hold up signs or make statements that support a revolutionary separatist movement in a UN recognized nation?
I am personally sympathetic with the Hong Kong protest movement (They are culturally separate from mainland China and don't even speak the same language), but I am disgusted by people ruining my sporting events by bringing their political tribalism to the event. Let's just enjoy the event and discus politics later over a beer.
HK、Macao、Guangdong and Guangxi use Cantonese（means Guangdong language,a Mainland Province who have Shenzhen and Guangzhou near Hong Kong）
Good. So #boycottBlizzard did something. There is blood in the water. Now buff Terran.....
Blizzard should know, they are being watched. I hope that this "3 days of thinking" will not lead into more opression on the employees to not lt incidents like this surface (E.g. Rules to stream with 3 minutes of delay to cut out everyhting).
You are not a political company, but if you have to, at least have the balls to stand with basic human rights and freedom.
I am kinda wondering if we will have any incidents during the ongoing LoL Worlds Championship. Riot games is owned by Tencent but the championship is played in Europe (Paris, Berlin, Madrid). We also have one Hong-Kong team (2 players from KH 2 from Taiwan and 1 Korean) and 3 Chinese teams playing. It is unlikely they will play each other though.
On October 12 2019 18:16 Silvanel wrote: I am kinda wondering if we will have any incidents during the ongoing LoL Worlds Championship. Riot games is owned by Tencent but the championship is played in Europe (Paris, Berlin, Madrid). We also have one Hong-Kong team (2 players from KH 2 from Taiwan and 1 Korean) and 3 Chinese teams playing. It is unlikely they will play each other though.
Riot games has issued a related announcement.In fact, HK、TW and CN games are common, as long as no one shouts political slogans in this sensitive period.
On October 12 2019 17:23 opisska wrote: There is one important thing that people who defend Blizzard and/or China here are missing. Especially when they try to play the "this is a sensitive topic for the Chinese" card. The thing is that this is a sensitive topic for anyone who values western democracy. The reason why this is such a shitstorm is in a large part that it is about China. Because we are basically at war with China at this point. It's a war that is not fought with weapons (so fat) but with money.
China is systematically trying to impose their authoritarian views on the world using their money. So when this happens in a field we care about, we get angry. Nobody can demand that we judge China "fairly" or look at this incident in a vacuum and compare it to othsr aimilar incidents and react the same. No, China is the enemy right now and we should treat it like that. It's not about the fact that they ignore human rights and torture minorities, it's personal.
It's almost ironic that at the very same time of this fiasco, there is another China story in my hometown - the new mayor decided that he wants to exclude "we support one China" from the partnership agreement between Prague and Beijing. China went ballistic, the ambassador made official threats of withdrawing.this and that investment and everything with "Prague" in the name has been banned in china - concerts cancelled and similar stuff. What is even worse, the Czech president is deep in the ass of China, so he started even more threats - luckily he has no leverage on the city council.
This is how China works. Just recently they bought Solomon Islands by a lit of promise of investment to stop recongizing ROC. And worse things are happening in places we don't even see, such as Africa, which is poor enough that they buy it left and right. They are not only buying economical influence, but political and they insist that nobody who gets their money criticises them. This is simply not acceptable, I refuse to bow to a totalitarian regime again after my country suffered under some for the better part of the 20th century.
This is why it is OK to overreact here and why none of the "genuine chinese citizens showing us their views" should be given any consideration. This is a war and propaganda is a key weapon in it, let's treat it as such.
It's a shitstorm, because you consider China an enemy now. But when trade agreement is sign are you gonna become friends again? China since long ago is considered an enemy by the west, but because the past 10 years they are threatening to overtake the US as the world top economy that's why the rhetoric has been lifted. You say people should ignore the views of 1.4 billion people, because you consider them the enemy, does not mean that everyone here does.
I guess because people label someone an enemy and others as friends, is why westerners don't get as aggressive when their allies like Israel or Saudi Arabia inflict as great or greater abuse of human rights then China.
On October 12 2019 18:16 Silvanel wrote: I am kinda wondering if we will have any incidents during the ongoing LoL Worlds Championship. Riot games is owned by Tencent but the championship is played in Europe (Paris, Berlin, Madrid). We also have one Hong-Kong team (2 players from KH 2 from Taiwan and 1 Korean) and 3 Chinese teams playing. It is unlikely they will play each other though.
Riot games has issued a related announcement.In fact, HK、TW and CN games are common, as long as no one shouts political slogans in this sensitive period.
I know they are common, but given the latest surge of emotions and political climate i am wondering if someone will do something. Particularly someone from audience since its in Europe.
On October 12 2019 17:23 opisska wrote: There is one important thing that people who defend Blizzard and/or China here are missing. Especially when they try to play the "this is a sensitive topic for the Chinese" card. The thing is that this is a sensitive topic for anyone who values western democracy. The reason why this is such a shitstorm is in a large part that it is about China. Because we are basically at war with China at this point. It's a war that is not fought with weapons (so fat) but with money.
China is systematically trying to impose their authoritarian views on the world using their money. So when this happens in a field we care about, we get angry. Nobody can demand that we judge China "fairly" or look at this incident in a vacuum and compare it to othsr aimilar incidents and react the same. No, China is the enemy right now and we should treat it like that. It's not about the fact that they ignore human rights and torture minorities, it's personal.
It's almost ironic that at the very same time of this fiasco, there is another China story in my hometown - the new mayor decided that he wants to exclude "we support one China" from the partnership agreement between Prague and Beijing. China went ballistic, the ambassador made official threats of withdrawing.this and that investment and everything with "Prague" in the name has been banned in china - concerts cancelled and similar stuff. What is even worse, the Czech president is deep in the ass of China, so he started even more threats - luckily he has no leverage on the city council.
This is how China works. Just recently they bought Solomon Islands by a lit of promise of investment to stop recongizing ROC. And worse things are happening in places we don't even see, such as Africa, which is poor enough that they buy it left and right. They are not only buying economical influence, but political and they insist that nobody who gets their money criticises them. This is simply not acceptable, I refuse to bow to a totalitarian regime again after my country suffered under some for the better part of the 20th century.
This is why it is OK to overreact here and why none of the "genuine chinese citizens showing us their views" should be given any consideration. This is a war and propaganda is a key weapon in it, let's treat it as such.
It's a shitstorm, because you consider China an enemy now. But when trade agreement is sign are you gonna become friends again? China since long ago is considered an enemy by the west, but because the past 10 years they are threatening to overtake the US as the world top economy that's why the rhetoric has been lifted. You say people should ignore the views of 1.4 billion people, because you consider them the enemy, does not mean that everyone here does.
I guess because people label someone an enemy and others as friends, is why westerners don't get as aggressive when their allies like Israel or Saudi Arabia inflict as great or greater abuse of human rights then China.
Western-style democracy and freedom always exist when western need them and be forgotten when they are unfavorable to the West.It's really hypocritical.That's why most Chinese don't believe West.
On October 12 2019 18:40 raga4ka wrote: I guess because people label someone an enemy and others as friends, is why westerners don't get as aggressive when their allies like Israel or Saudi Arabia inflict as great or greater abuse of human rights then China.
So you don't consider yourself a westerner then, despite listing yourself as from Bulgaria? I suppose the cat is out of its bag. And if you read out poltical threads, you will see near universal condemnation against Isreal and Saudi Arabia, far greater than any against Chinese repression.
We can condemn Isreal, we can condemn Saudi Arabia, freely without fear, we can condemn any country in the world without fear, we can condemn against our own governments without fear, and we can condemn China, without fear, all at the same time. Meanwhile the PRC kidnap booksellers even from outside their country.
On October 12 2019 19:08 aSpeaker wrote: Western-style democracy and freedom always exist when western need them and be forgotten when they are unfavorable to the West.It's really hypocritical.That's why most Chinese don't believe West.
I exercised my democracy and freedom when I vote for my representatives in the House of Commons. I exercised my freedoms when I can criticize my government, and constantly do so, without fear. I can freely visit Westminster without fear of dying. What happens to those who demonstrate in Tiananmen Square?
On October 12 2019 18:16 Silvanel wrote: I am kinda wondering if we will have any incidents during the ongoing LoL Worlds Championship. Riot games is owned by Tencent but the championship is played in Europe (Paris, Berlin, Madrid). We also have one Hong-Kong team (2 players from KH 2 from Taiwan and 1 Korean) and 3 Chinese teams playing. It is unlikely they will play each other though.
Riot games has issued a related announcement.In fact, HK、TW and CN games are common, as long as no one shouts political slogans in this sensitive period.
I know they are common, but given the latest surge of emotions and political climate i am wondering if someone will do something. Particularly someone from audience since its in Europe.
First of all, they certainly won't punish the audience.If it had been broadcast in real time, Chinese audiences might not have seen it. Of course, they should skip this section by director. Nobody want to get into small trouble.Weibo is no cool than twitter.Tencent is sure to make some announcements.Generally speaking, it will cause trouble to others. Don't do it.Just enjoy game.
On October 12 2019 17:23 opisska wrote: There is one important thing that people who defend Blizzard and/or China here are missing. Especially when they try to play the "this is a sensitive topic for the Chinese" card. The thing is that this is a sensitive topic for anyone who values western democracy. The reason why this is such a shitstorm is in a large part that it is about China. Because we are basically at war with China at this point. It's a war that is not fought with weapons (so fat) but with money.
China is systematically trying to impose their authoritarian views on the world using their money. So when this happens in a field we care about, we get angry. Nobody can demand that we judge China "fairly" or look at this incident in a vacuum and compare it to othsr aimilar incidents and react the same. No, China is the enemy right now and we should treat it like that. It's not about the fact that they ignore human rights and torture minorities, it's personal.
It's almost ironic that at the very same time of this fiasco, there is another China story in my hometown - the new mayor decided that he wants to exclude "we support one China" from the partnership agreement between Prague and Beijing. China went ballistic, the ambassador made official threats of withdrawing.this and that investment and everything with "Prague" in the name has been banned in china - concerts cancelled and similar stuff. What is even worse, the Czech president is deep in the ass of China, so he started even more threats - luckily he has no leverage on the city council.
This is how China works. Just recently they bought Solomon Islands by a lit of promise of investment to stop recongizing ROC. And worse things are happening in places we don't even see, such as Africa, which is poor enough that they buy it left and right. They are not only buying economical influence, but political and they insist that nobody who gets their money criticises them. This is simply not acceptable, I refuse to bow to a totalitarian regime again after my country suffered under some for the better part of the 20th century.
This is why it is OK to overreact here and why none of the "genuine chinese citizens showing us their views" should be given any consideration. This is a war and propaganda is a key weapon in it, let's treat it as such.
It's a shitstorm, because you consider China an enemy now. But when trade agreement is sign are you gonna become friends again? China since long ago is considered an enemy by the west, but because the past 10 years they are threatening to overtake the US as the world top economy that's why the rhetoric has been lifted. You say people should ignore the views of 1.4 billion people, because you consider them the enemy, does not mean that everyone here does.
I guess because people label someone an enemy and others as friends, is why westerners don't get as aggressive when their allies like Israel or Saudi Arabia inflict as great or greater abuse of human rights then China.
You did notice he is talking about Prague (which is in Czech Republic) so why are You dragging Isreal and Saudi Arabia into this? Are Czechs going around bombing other countries? Is Isreal or SA ally of Czech republic?
The hypocrisy of the West is exactly what people are upset about. This particular outrage is against Blizzards' hypocritical stance of growth prospects (money) over human rights, freedom of speech and other such values.
I wonder what an act of protest like this would look like in China.
On October 12 2019 19:08 aSpeaker wrote: Western-style democracy and freedom always exist when western need them and be forgotten when they are unfavorable to the West.It's really hypocritical.That's why most Chinese don't believe West.
In every system of government there is always gonna be a certain level of hyporcrisy. So this is a pretty nonsensical reason to "not believe the west".
On October 12 2019 18:16 Silvanel wrote: I am kinda wondering if we will have any incidents during the ongoing LoL Worlds Championship. Riot games is owned by Tencent but the championship is played in Europe (Paris, Berlin, Madrid). We also have one Hong-Kong team (2 players from KH 2 from Taiwan and 1 Korean) and 3 Chinese teams playing. It is unlikely they will play each other though.
Riot games has issued a related announcement.In fact, HK、TW and CN games are common, as long as no one shouts political slogans in this sensitive period.
I know they are common, but given the latest surge of emotions and political climate i am wondering if someone will do something. Particularly someone from audience since its in Europe.
First of all, they certainly won't punish the audience.If it had been broadcast in real time, Chinese audiences might not have seen it. Of course, they should skip this section by director. Nobody want to get into small trouble.Weibo is no cool than twitter.Tencent is sure to make some announcements.Generally speaking, it will cause trouble to others. Don't do it.Just enjoy game.
I suspect anyone in the audience holding up a Hong Kong sign to be removed by security. They cant do much more then that but they can throw you out of the building.
On October 12 2019 19:19 Penev wrote: The hypocrisy of the West is exactly what people are upset about. This particular outrage is against Blizzards' hypocritical stance of growth prospects (money) over human rights, freedom of speech and other such values.
I wonder what an act of protest like this would look like in China.
In fact, they also boycotted weibo as Westerners did on Twitter.Criticize the relevant government units under the relevant news.@somebody to said something.
On October 12 2019 17:23 opisska wrote: There is one important thing that people who defend Blizzard and/or China here are missing. Especially when they try to play the "this is a sensitive topic for the Chinese" card. The thing is that this is a sensitive topic for anyone who values western democracy. The reason why this is such a shitstorm is in a large part that it is about China. Because we are basically at war with China at this point. It's a war that is not fought with weapons (so fat) but with money.
China is systematically trying to impose their authoritarian views on the world using their money. So when this happens in a field we care about, we get angry. Nobody can demand that we judge China "fairly" or look at this incident in a vacuum and compare it to othsr aimilar incidents and react the same. No, China is the enemy right now and we should treat it like that. It's not about the fact that they ignore human rights and torture minorities, it's personal.
It's almost ironic that at the very same time of this fiasco, there is another China story in my hometown - the new mayor decided that he wants to exclude "we support one China" from the partnership agreement between Prague and Beijing. China went ballistic, the ambassador made official threats of withdrawing.this and that investment and everything with "Prague" in the name has been banned in china - concerts cancelled and similar stuff. What is even worse, the Czech president is deep in the ass of China, so he started even more threats - luckily he has no leverage on the city council.
This is how China works. Just recently they bought Solomon Islands by a lit of promise of investment to stop recongizing ROC. And worse things are happening in places we don't even see, such as Africa, which is poor enough that they buy it left and right. They are not only buying economical influence, but political and they insist that nobody who gets their money criticises them. This is simply not acceptable, I refuse to bow to a totalitarian regime again after my country suffered under some for the better part of the 20th century.
This is why it is OK to overreact here and why none of the "genuine chinese citizens showing us their views" should be given any consideration. This is a war and propaganda is a key weapon in it, let's treat it as such.
It's a shitstorm, because you consider China an enemy now. But when trade agreement is sign are you gonna become friends again? China since long ago is considered an enemy by the west, but because the past 10 years they are threatening to overtake the US as the world top economy that's why the rhetoric has been lifted. You say people should ignore the views of 1.4 billion people, because you consider them the enemy, does not mean that everyone here does.
I guess because people label someone an enemy and others as friends, is why westerners don't get as aggressive when their allies like Israel or Saudi Arabia inflict as great or greater abuse of human rights then China.
What are you talking about, Westerners as in governments or general Westerners?
Boycott Divestment and Sanctions as a movement has been going for a long time and adherents boycott and pressure people having anything to do with Israel, such as performing concerts there etc. It’s far more pronounced and sustained than anything most Westerners do regarding China. As for the Saudis fuck them but their money doesn’t come from consumer products in the same way, kind of hard for any individual person to boycott oil.
I don’t think many people here consider China an enemy at all just because they’re becoming an economic powerhouse, nobody outside of ardent nationalists overly cares about that in and of itself.
It’s the fact it does what it does AND is an economic powerhouse with the power to make other people play ball that concerns many people.
On October 12 2019 18:16 Silvanel wrote: I am kinda wondering if we will have any incidents during the ongoing LoL Worlds Championship. Riot games is owned by Tencent but the championship is played in Europe (Paris, Berlin, Madrid). We also have one Hong-Kong team (2 players from KH 2 from Taiwan and 1 Korean) and 3 Chinese teams playing. It is unlikely they will play each other though.
Riot games has issued a related announcement.In fact, HK、TW and CN games are common, as long as no one shouts political slogans in this sensitive period.
I know they are common, but given the latest surge of emotions and political climate i am wondering if someone will do something. Particularly someone from audience since its in Europe.
First of all, they certainly won't punish the audience.If it had been broadcast in real time, Chinese audiences might not have seen it. Of course, they should skip this section by director. Nobody want to get into small trouble.Weibo is no cool than twitter.Tencent is sure to make some announcements.Generally speaking, it will cause trouble to others. Don't do it.Just enjoy game.
I suspect anyone in the audience holding up a Hong Kong sign to be removed by security. They cant do much more then that but they can throw you out of the building.
I guess with signs it depends on the law in particular country, but what if someone has a shirt or blouse with HK support sign or with Winnie the Pooh??? I guess best they can do is avoid showing it on stream.
Western-style democracy and freedom always exist when western need them and be forgotten when they are unfavorable to the West.It's really hypocritical.That's why most Chinese don't believe West.
I think that is just too dumbed down.
"Values" are often used or surpressed at to support ones causes if you have to . And every day people have to balance between them.
What values are to be uphold ? It's a decision to make everyday, in every situation.
On October 12 2019 18:16 Silvanel wrote: I am kinda wondering if we will have any incidents during the ongoing LoL Worlds Championship. Riot games is owned by Tencent but the championship is played in Europe (Paris, Berlin, Madrid). We also have one Hong-Kong team (2 players from KH 2 from Taiwan and 1 Korean) and 3 Chinese teams playing. It is unlikely they will play each other though.
Riot games has issued a related announcement.In fact, HK、TW and CN games are common, as long as no one shouts political slogans in this sensitive period.
I know they are common, but given the latest surge of emotions and political climate i am wondering if someone will do something. Particularly someone from audience since its in Europe.
First of all, they certainly won't punish the audience.If it had been broadcast in real time, Chinese audiences might not have seen it. Of course, they should skip this section by director. Nobody want to get into small trouble.Weibo is no cool than twitter.Tencent is sure to make some announcements.Generally speaking, it will cause trouble to others. Don't do it.Just enjoy game.
I suspect anyone in the audience holding up a Hong Kong sign to be removed by security. They cant do much more then that but they can throw you out of the building.
I guess with signs it depends on the law in particular country, but what if someone has a shirt or blouse with HK support sign or with Winnie the Pooh??? I guess best they can do is avoid showing it on stream.
The venue is a private building, they can remove you whenever they want and for whatever reason.
On October 12 2019 19:19 Penev wrote: The hypocrisy of the West is exactly what people are upset about. This particular outrage is against Blizzards' hypocritical stance of growth prospects (money) over human rights, freedom of speech and other such values.
I wonder what an act of protest like this would look like in China.
In fact, they also boycotted weibo as Westerners did on Twitter.Criticize the relevant government units under the relevant news.@somebody to said something.
On October 12 2019 19:21 Dangermousecatdog wrote: We know what it looks like; it looks like Tiananmen Square.
Come on！Don't talk about that as only you know it.We can talk about it about 1989.6.4.That's really not a very good thing to do.We will certainly learn from it.But that is a color revolution.It's like what happened in Eastern Europe and today in HK.
In fact, there are direct democratic elections below the county level.And these people will elect more senior leaders.And I seriously doubt that the power of domestic public opinion can easily influence most domestic policies.Moving out of the factory because of environmentalist protests.Re-investigation of the case by listening to public opinion.This may not be strictly Western-style democracy, but it works. You can enjoy these democracies in exchange for life, and earlier Britain is not as democratic as it is now.
The specific views expressed by blitzchung were NOT a factor in the decision we made. I want to be clear: our relationships in China had no influence on our decision.
We have these rules to keep the focus on the game and on the tournament to the benefit of a global audience, and that was the only consideration in the actions we took.
Immediately taking away the prize money, doling out a one-year ban, and firing the casters is proof this wasn't decided for some nebulous concept of the "benefit of a global audience." Bad job covering your ass.
In the tournament itself blitzchung *played* fair. We now believe he should receive his prizing. We understand that for some this is not about the prize, and perhaps for others it is disrespectful to even discuss it. That is not our intention.
This is corporatese for seeing the size of the backlash, and realizing that the company's interest lay with pleasing its fans. Good good fun at this sudden realization that the prize should never had been on the line for his post-match support of the Hong Kong protesters.
One of our goals at Blizzard is to make sure that every player, everywhere in the world, regardless of political views, religious beliefs, race, gender, or any other consideration always feels safe and welcome both competing in and playing our games.
If this was really a legitimate goal, the bare minimum is weighing the consequences for a few days, and punishment in proportion to the crime. That's something in the neighborhood of a suspension of a couple weeks to a month, and a small fine, if we grant for the sake of argument that Blizzard has been consistent on political statements of any kind.
I'm kind of happy that they even made an overture to mea culpa. It acknowledges a mistake, albeit obfuscating the reason it was made and the repercussions to the broader community.
Indeed, what should have happened was wait a few days then something akin to this statement, if the goal was to keep broadcasts and tournaments relatively apolitical.
That it happened so quickly and the punishments were harsh as they were really makes the ‘this has nothing to do with China’ line (paraphrasing) absolutely laughable.
For me personally it’s too little too late, their motivations and values were laid bare the first time round, very clearly.
This is how corporates enact bad practice all the time. They go with their full intent to begin with, there’s a backlash and a subsequent ‘we hear you guys’ statement, then they pull back slightly from the egregious action. Then that placates people but in absolute terms the company has still done something unacceptable, they’ve just shifted how people feel about it by making it look like they’re reasonable and responsive.
See it with loot boxes for example. Gamers like myself have been against them for a myriad of reasons for many years, then a company pushes that bit too far and they retract back merely to what they were doing a few months prior, which I was already against anyway, but the outrage is defused.
The specific views expressed by blitzchung were NOT a factor in the decision we made. I want to be clear: our relationships in China had no influence on our decision.
We have these rules to keep the focus on the game and on the tournament to the benefit of a global audience, and that was the only consideration in the actions we took.
Immediately taking away the prize money, doling out a one-year ban, and firing the casters is proof this wasn't decided for some nebulous concept of the "benefit of a global audience." Bad job covering your ass.
In the tournament itself blitzchung *played* fair. We now believe he should receive his prizing. We understand that for some this is not about the prize, and perhaps for others it is disrespectful to even discuss it. That is not our intention.
This is corporatese for seeing the size of the backlash, and realizing that the company's interest lay with pleasing its fans. Good good fun at this sudden realization that the prize should never had been on the line for his post-match support of the Hong Kong protesters.
One of our goals at Blizzard is to make sure that every player, everywhere in the world, regardless of political views, religious beliefs, race, gender, or any other consideration always feels safe and welcome both competing in and playing our games.
If this was really a legitimate goal, the bare minimum is weighing the consequences for a few days, and punishment in proportion to the crime. That's something in the neighborhood of a suspension of a couple weeks to a month, and a small fine, if we grant for the sake of argument that Blizzard has been consistent on political statements of any kind.
I'm kind of happy that they even made an overture to mea culpa. It acknowledges a mistake, albeit obfuscating the reason it was made and the repercussions to the broader community.
Indeed, what should have happened was wait a few days then something akin to this statement, if the goal was to keep broadcasts and tournaments relatively apolitical.
That it happened so quickly and the punishments were harsh as they were really makes the ‘this has nothing to do with China’ line (paraphrasing) absolutely laughable.
For me personally it’s too little too late, their motivations and values were laid bare the first time round, very clearly.
This is how corporates enact bad practice all the time. They go with their full intent to begin with, there’s a backlash and a subsequent ‘we hear you guys’ statement, then they pull back slightly from the egregious action. Then that placates people but in absolute terms the company has still done something unacceptable, they’ve just shifted how people feel about it by making it look like they’re reasonable and responsive.
See it with loot boxes for example. Gamers like myself have been against them for a myriad of reasons for many years, then a company pushes that bit too far and they retract back merely to what they were doing a few months prior, which I was already against anyway, but the outrage is defused.
I may know something about this. In fact, someone posted relevant videos on Weibo the same day and @Netease and Blizzard China. Then Blizzard China said it would feed back to Blizzard Headquarters, and after a day they made the decision.As for how they decided to deal with it, you've seen it. You can only say that nationalists are too enthusiastic, or that some people just want to make trouble for others.
Just read the statement. Wow, what an amazingly large pile of horseshit. They somehow managed to be unapologetic, lie, and call human rights a "divisive topic" all in the same letter.
The letter is also gramatically super weird, not at all how a native English speaker would word things, leaving a strong impression that it was probably handed back and forth between Blizzard and China before being finalized (which would also explain what took them so long).
You have to be pretty gullible to sincerly believe anything that was stated in that letter.
This Blizzard statement parallels China's actions to Hong Kong, trying to appease protesters by giving a little but too late and not enough. Reducing the suspension to 6 months is not enough. I still plan to protest and to boycott Blizzard. F$%* Blizzard.
Blizzard are still digging. People keep saying that they hit the rock bottom, but they keep defying expectations. At this point it doesn't really matter what lie will J.Allen Brack say... Nobody believes a word from his mouth. Personally I'm not touching their products anymore.
On October 12 2019 17:23 opisska wrote: There is one important thing that people who defend Blizzard and/or China here are missing. Especially when they try to play the "this is a sensitive topic for the Chinese" card. The thing is that this is a sensitive topic for anyone who values western democracy. The reason why this is such a shitstorm is in a large part that it is about China. Because we are basically at war with China at this point. It's a war that is not fought with weapons (so fat) but with money.
China is systematically trying to impose their authoritarian views on the world using their money. So when this happens in a field we care about, we get angry. Nobody can demand that we judge China "fairly" or look at this incident in a vacuum and compare it to othsr aimilar incidents and react the same. No, China is the enemy right now and we should treat it like that. It's not about the fact that they ignore human rights and torture minorities, it's personal.
It's almost ironic that at the very same time of this fiasco, there is another China story in my hometown - the new mayor decided that he wants to exclude "we support one China" from the partnership agreement between Prague and Beijing.c
This is how China works. Just recently they bought Solomon Islands by a lit of promise of investment to stop recongizing ROC. And worse things are happening in places we don't even see, such as Africa, which is poor enough that they buy it left and right. They are not only buying economical influence, but political and they insist that nobody who gets their money criticises them. This is simply not acceptable, I refuse to bow to a totalitarian regime again after my country suffered under some for the better part of the 20th century.
This is why it is OK to overreact here and why none of the "genuine chinese citizens showing us their views" should be given any consideration. This is a war and propaganda is a key weapon in it, let's treat it as such.
It's a shitstorm, because you consider China an enemy now. But when trade agreement is sign are you gonna become friends again? China since long ago is considered an enemy by the west, but because the past 10 years they are threatening to overtake the US as the world top economy that's why the rhetoric has been lifted. You say people should ignore the views of 1.4 billion people, because you consider them the enemy, does not mean that everyone here does.
I guess because people label someone an enemy and others as friends, is why westerners don't get as aggressive when their allies like Israel or Saudi Arabia inflict as great or greater abuse of human rights then China.
You did notice he is talking about Prague (which is in Czech Republic) so why are You dragging Isreal and Saudi Arabia into this? Are Czechs going around bombing other countries? Is Isreal or SA ally of Czech republic?
I was referring to the part where he mentions that we should ignore the views of the chinese, because "we consider them as enemies". Chinese have the right to be offended if someone supports Hong Kong separation from China... I myself don't consider China as an enemy, for one thing it's provided business opportunities for poor countries in eastern Europe, while Europe countries choose to invest in Turkey or somewhere else.
One China policy on Taiwan on the other hand every nation should choose for themselves, most countries support one china policy officially, but act otherwise. I don't have a problem with that, every country has the right to consider their diplomatic and business ties like Czechs. I respect the Czechs republic for their choice even though they could lose business because of it and that would suck... Czechs has some business ties with chinese companies... most of the 3D printers from Creality and Anycubic I order come from a warehouse in the Czechs somewhere... China has a political agenda, and everyone chooses for themselves if they would follow it and do business with China or condemn it and face sanctions, just like with the US and Iran sanctions...
On October 12 2019 18:16 Silvanel wrote: I am kinda wondering if we will have any incidents during the ongoing LoL Worlds Championship. Riot games is owned by Tencent but the championship is played in Europe (Paris, Berlin, Madrid). We also have one Hong-Kong team (2 players from KH 2 from Taiwan and 1 Korean) and 3 Chinese teams playing. It is unlikely they will play each other though.
Riot games has issued a related announcement.In fact, HK、TW and CN games are common, as long as no one shouts political slogans in this sensitive period.
I know they are common, but given the latest surge of emotions and political climate i am wondering if someone will do something. Particularly someone from audience since its in Europe.
First of all, they certainly won't punish the audience.If it had been broadcast in real time, Chinese audiences might not have seen it. Of course, they should skip this section by director. Nobody want to get into small trouble.Weibo is no cool than twitter.Tencent is sure to make some announcements.Generally speaking, it will cause trouble to others. Don't do it.Just enjoy game.
I suspect anyone in the audience holding up a Hong Kong sign to be removed by security. They cant do much more then that but they can throw you out of the building.
I guess with signs it depends on the law in particular country, but what if someone has a shirt or blouse with HK support sign or with Winnie the Pooh??? I guess best they can do is avoid showing it on stream.
The venue is a private building, they can remove you whenever they want and for whatever reason.
Are You sure You are from Europe and not from US? If the event is open then its covered by mass gathering laws (at least in Poland, which are very specific about when and how participant can be removed by force from the event and it is mostly limited to safety reasons. And if event its ticketed then You bought the ticket and have right to be there. The event regulations are exactly as EULA, just because something is there doesnt mean shit. It has to be in accordance with country law.
On October 12 2019 17:23 opisska wrote: There is one important thing that people who defend Blizzard and/or China here are missing. Especially when they try to play the "this is a sensitive topic for the Chinese" card. The thing is that this is a sensitive topic for anyone who values western democracy. The reason why this is such a shitstorm is in a large part that it is about China. Because we are basically at war with China at this point. It's a war that is not fought with weapons (so fat) but with money.
China is systematically trying to impose their authoritarian views on the world using their money. So when this happens in a field we care about, we get angry. Nobody can demand that we judge China "fairly" or look at this incident in a vacuum and compare it to othsr aimilar incidents and react the same. No, China is the enemy right now and we should treat it like that. It's not about the fact that they ignore human rights and torture minorities, it's personal.
It's almost ironic that at the very same time of this fiasco, there is another China story in my hometown - the new mayor decided that he wants to exclude "we support one China" from the partnership agreement between Prague and Beijing.c
This is how China works. Just recently they bought Solomon Islands by a lit of promise of investment to stop recongizing ROC. And worse things are happening in places we don't even see, such as Africa, which is poor enough that they buy it left and right. They are not only buying economical influence, but political and they insist that nobody who gets their money criticises them. This is simply not acceptable, I refuse to bow to a totalitarian regime again after my country suffered under some for the better part of the 20th century.
This is why it is OK to overreact here and why none of the "genuine chinese citizens showing us their views" should be given any consideration. This is a war and propaganda is a key weapon in it, let's treat it as such.
It's a shitstorm, because you consider China an enemy now. But when trade agreement is sign are you gonna become friends again? China since long ago is considered an enemy by the west, but because the past 10 years they are threatening to overtake the US as the world top economy that's why the rhetoric has been lifted. You say people should ignore the views of 1.4 billion people, because you consider them the enemy, does not mean that everyone here does.
I guess because people label someone an enemy and others as friends, is why westerners don't get as aggressive when their allies like Israel or Saudi Arabia inflict as great or greater abuse of human rights then China.
You did notice he is talking about Prague (which is in Czech Republic) so why are You dragging Isreal and Saudi Arabia into this? Are Czechs going around bombing other countries? Is Isreal or SA ally of Czech republic?
I was referring to the part where he mentions that we should ignore the views of the chinese, because "we consider them as enemies". Chinese have the right to be offended if someone supports Hong Kong separation from China... I myself don't consider China as an enemy, for one thing it's provided business opportunities for poor countries in eastern Europe, while Europe countries choose to invest in Turkey or somewhere else.
On October 12 2019 17:23 opisska wrote: There is one important thing that people who defend Blizzard and/or China here are missing. Especially when they try to play the "this is a sensitive topic for the Chinese" card. The thing is that this is a sensitive topic for anyone who values western democracy. The reason why this is such a shitstorm is in a large part that it is about China. Because we are basically at war with China at this point. It's a war that is not fought with weapons (so fat) but with money.
China is systematically trying to impose their authoritarian views on the world using their money. So when this happens in a field we care about, we get angry. Nobody can demand that we judge China "fairly" or look at this incident in a vacuum and compare it to othsr aimilar incidents and react the same. No, China is the enemy right now and we should treat it like that. It's not about the fact that they ignore human rights and torture minorities, it's personal.
It's almost ironic that at the very same time of this fiasco, there is another China story in my hometown - the new mayor decided that he wants to exclude "we support one China" from the partnership agreement between Prague and Beijing.c
This is how China works. Just recently they bought Solomon Islands by a lit of promise of investment to stop recongizing ROC. And worse things are happening in places we don't even see, such as Africa, which is poor enough that they buy it left and right. They are not only buying economical influence, but political and they insist that nobody who gets their money criticises them. This is simply not acceptable, I refuse to bow to a totalitarian regime again after my country suffered under some for the better part of the 20th century.
This is why it is OK to overreact here and why none of the "genuine chinese citizens showing us their views" should be given any consideration. This is a war and propaganda is a key weapon in it, let's treat it as such.
It's a shitstorm, because you consider China an enemy now. But when trade agreement is sign are you gonna become friends again? China since long ago is considered an enemy by the west, but because the past 10 years they are threatening to overtake the US as the world top economy that's why the rhetoric has been lifted. You say people should ignore the views of 1.4 billion people, because you consider them the enemy, does not mean that everyone here does.
I guess because people label someone an enemy and others as friends, is why westerners don't get as aggressive when their allies like Israel or Saudi Arabia inflict as great or greater abuse of human rights then China.
You did notice he is talking about Prague (which is in Czech Republic) so why are You dragging Isreal and Saudi Arabia into this? Are Czechs going around bombing other countries? Is Isreal or SA ally of Czech republic?
I was referring to the part where he mentions that we should ignore the views of the chinese, because "we consider them as enemies". Chinese have the right to be offended if someone supports Hong Kong separation from China... I myself don't consider China as an enemy, for one thing it's provided business opportunities for poor countries in eastern Europe, while Europe countries choose to invest in Turkey or somewhere else.
One China policy on Taiwan on the other hand every nation should choose for themselves, most countries support one china policy officially, but act otherwise. I don't have a problem with that, every country has the right to consider their diplomatic and business ties like Czechs. I respect the Czechs republic for their choice even though they could lose business because of it and that would suck... Czechs has some business ties with chinese companies... most of the 3D printers from Creality and Anycubic I order come from a warehouse in the Czechs somewhere... China has a political agenda, and everyone chooses for themselves if they would follow it and do business with China or condemn it and face sanctions, just like with the US and Iran sanctions...
Yes, each country can only choose one of the RPC and ROC as their legitimate Chinese government. In the final analysis, this is a legacy of history. He is not like North Korea and South Korea, although he looks very similar.I think the civil war is not over because there is no truce agreement.
I don't want to get too caught up in this discussion, but let me clarify: my key problem with China is that it is actively meddling in the affairs the western world. Chinese government and corporations are deeply linked and they are using their market power to silence people on the other side of the world. I am well aware that Asia is culturally different and I give them the full right to be, which however stops at the point where they try to enforce it on me. And I am led to conclude that here again we see an example of that, China influencing the actions of a majorly western company and that is the topic of the thread, thus I believe this problem is relevant here.
Someone mentioned Israel and that is a great example - a lot of people in Europe criticize Israel (while others support it) but there is not this kind of pressure by the state Israel trying to shut the discussion up - yes, there are still interest groups and influences, but it is incomparable to the outright blackmail China employs just to silence opponents. The concept "we have a lot of money and if you want to trade with us you are not allow to say this and that" is absolutely appalling to me.
As for the charge that I have said that "opinion of the Chinese doesn't matter" - I meant especially the "new" posters in this thread. I simply do not believe they represent views of normal Chinese people - to be honest I have problems believing that those accounts represent actual people, or that those people present their actual views and those paid for by the propaganda machine, that's all. I have to admit that my pesronal contacts with Chinese people are limited to emigrants, but at least their views are generally not like this.
On October 12 2019 20:46 opisska wrote: I don't want to get too caught up in this discussion, but let me clarify: my key problem with China is that it is actively meddling in the affairs the western world. Chinese government and corporations are deeply linked and they are using their market power to silence people on the other side of the world. I am well aware that Asia is culturally different and I give them the full right to be, which however stops at the point where they try to enforce it on me. And I am led to conclude that here again we see an example of that, China influencing the actions of a majorly western company and that is the topic of the thread, thus I believe this problem is relevant here.
Someone mentioned Israel and that is a great example - a lot of people in Europe criticize Israel (while others support it) but there is not this kind of pressure by the state Israel trying to shut the discussion up - yes, there are still interest groups and influences, but it is incomparable to the outright blackmail China employs just to silence opponents. The concept "we have a lot of money and if you want to trade with us you are not allow to say this and that" is absolutely appalling to me.
As for the charge that I have said that "opinion of the Chinese doesn't matter" - I meant especially the "new" posters in this thread. I simply do not believe they represent views of normal Chinese people - to be honest I have problems believing that those accounts represent actual people, or that those people present their actual views and those paid for by the propaganda machine, that's all. I have to admit that my pesronal contacts with Chinese people are limited to emigrants, but at least their views are generally not like this.
I think there are two reasons for this.
First of all, Chinese people tend to prefer to communicate with Chinese people, and secondly, most Chinese English is not very good.
As a non-native speaker of English, I communicate with you by inputting Chinese, translating it into English, and modifying it slightly. In this process, a lot of "information" will be lost, so most Chinese people are more accustomed to using Chinese. That's why you can see a lot of Chinatown around the world and they like to live together. And you rarely see mainlanders on Twitter (the wall is one of the reasons), as if you opened an app with all Chinese on it, your first reaction might be to give up using it. Most of the Chinese you can see on non-academic websites are not mainlanders.
As you can see, I'm also a new poster, because I didn't intend to join the exchange before today. I only use TL's wiki about SC2. As for the so-called Chinese influence that you are worried about, don't you think Is the same for the United States and Russia?
On October 12 2019 21:02 aSpeaker wrote: As for the so-called Chinese influence that you are worried about, don't you think Is the same for the United States and Russia?
There is a severe difference in quality and quantity of said influence on the affair of others from US/Russia compared to China.
Seems like you either approve of Blizzard's actions and you are with China or vice versa. at least that's where most people sit on this topic. Well, I approve of Blizzard's decision, but I fully support Honk Kong in their conflict with China. I don't think these two things should be mutually exclusive. Blizzard has a rule and they enforced it, its as simple as that. Pretty sure they would ban a player saying 'Support China'. They want to have neutral position and that's the right thing to do for a game developing company.
On October 12 2019 21:02 aSpeaker wrote: As for the so-called Chinese influence that you are worried about, don't you think Is the same for the United States and Russia?
There is a severe difference in quality and quantity of said influence on the affair of others from US/Russia compared to China.
So no, it is not the same at all.
Maybe China should learn more from the United States and Russia and use more military power and economic sanctions to silence its opponents? Maybe they won't have time to gossip here at that time? These people are so just. Where were you during the war in Syria? Oh, you're probably blaming Bashar.
On October 12 2019 21:28 FreakyDroid wrote: Seems like you either approve of Blizzard's actions and you are with China or vice versa. at least that's where most people sit on this topic. Well, I approve of Blizzard's decision, but I fully support Honk Kong in their conflict with China. I don't think these two things should be mutually exclusive. Blizzard has a rule and they enforced it, its as simple as that. Pretty sure they would ban a player saying 'Support China'. They want to have neutral position and that's the right thing to do for a game developing company.
They will only tell you that you can only choose a side between human rights and China. To choose neutrality is to let China go.It's an accomplice against human rights.
On October 12 2019 21:02 aSpeaker wrote: As for the so-called Chinese influence that you are worried about, don't you think Is the same for the United States and Russia?
There is a severe difference in quality and quantity of said influence on the affair of others from US/Russia compared to China.
So no, it is not the same at all.
Maybe China should learn more from the United States and Russia and use more military power and economic sanctions to silence its opponents? Maybe they won't have time to gossip here at that time? These people are so just. Where were you during the war in Syria? Oh, you're probably blaming Bashar.
Oh yes my favorite troll argument. "The others are as bad, so we are fine." Yes, all super powers did horrible things. That doesn't make the PRC and the CCP less guilty of anything and it doesn't make Blizzard less guilty as well. Stop diverting the conversation.
On October 12 2019 21:28 FreakyDroid wrote: Seems like you either approve of Blizzard's actions and you are with China or vice versa. at least that's where most people sit on this topic. Well, I approve of Blizzard's decision, but I fully support Honk Kong in their conflict with China. I don't think these two things should be mutually exclusive. Blizzard has a rule and they enforced it, its as simple as that. Pretty sure they would ban a player saying 'Support China'. They want to have neutral position and that's the right thing to do for a game developing company.
Blizzard brought it on themselves. The only possible punishment for these kind of things while remaining neutral is a slap on the wrist. Both harshly punishing and not punishing at all, makes either sides think you're choosing the other side, even if you're not actually choosing.
That said, this kind of thing is China's MO. There's no doubt in my mind at all China's behind it, either directly or indirectly.
On October 12 2019 21:02 aSpeaker wrote: As for the so-called Chinese influence that you are worried about, don't you think Is the same for the United States and Russia?
There is a severe difference in quality and quantity of said influence on the affair of others from US/Russia compared to China.
So no, it is not the same at all.
Maybe China should learn more from the United States and Russia and use more military power and economic sanctions to silence its opponents? Maybe they won't have time to gossip here at that time? These people are so just. Where were you during the war in Syria? Oh, you're probably blaming Bashar.
Oh yes my favorite troll argument. "The others are as bad, so we are fine." Yes, all super powers did horrible things. That doesn't make the PRC and the CCP less guilty of anything and it doesn't make Blizzard less guilty as well. Stop diverting the conversation.
No, you're wrong. We're not ashamed to be a superpower like the United States and Russia.
On October 12 2019 21:02 aSpeaker wrote: As for the so-called Chinese influence that you are worried about, don't you think Is the same for the United States and Russia?
There is a severe difference in quality and quantity of said influence on the affair of others from US/Russia compared to China.
So no, it is not the same at all.
Maybe China should learn more from the United States and Russia and use more military power and economic sanctions to silence its opponents? Maybe they won't have time to gossip here at that time? These people are so just. Where were you during the war in Syria? Oh, you're probably blaming Bashar.
Oh yes my favorite troll argument. "The others are as bad, so we are fine." Yes, all super powers did horrible things. That doesn't make the PRC and the CCP less guilty of anything and it doesn't make Blizzard less guilty as well. Stop diverting the conversation.
No, you're wrong. We're not ashamed to be a superpower like the United States and Russia.
huh? you think Americans are ashamed of being a superpower? do you spend any time in the USA and interact with Americans in the real world? The "Make America Great Again" catch phrase has been around since 1980.
On October 12 2019 21:28 FreakyDroid wrote: Blizzard has a rule and they enforced it, its as simple as that. Pretty sure they would ban a player saying 'Support China'. They want to have neutral position and that's the right thing to do for a game developing company.
It's only "as simple as that" if you literally ignore everything actually surrounding the decision. These things have happened in the past: Never have there been a punishment from Blizzard. Then when the topic was suddenly about human rights, it became "divisive" and required that they punished every individual remotely near the situation to the harshest of their ability? The reasonable response, if they actually cared about keeping their streams politics free, would have been a slap on the wrist, not outright murder of 3 professional careers.
That's also ignoring the fact that Blizzard China publicly apologised to the Chinese people, stating that they will "continue to defend their pride and honour". Sure, this was probably written by an outsourced subsidiary, but it still represents them, and if they disagreed they should have taken action.
You are pretty sure they would ban a player saying "Support China", the rest of the world is pretty sure you are entirely wrong. If they did so, they'd chance being banned from the Chinese market. So they would never dare do anything remotely to offend them like that.
And that is the root of this entire situation. Blizzard prides itself a liberal company which defends such things as free speech and gay rights. Yet when faced with potentially losing out on the quarterly earnings from China, they completely backtracked their entire stance to pander to the thin skinned authoritarians.
So yeah. It's exactly "as simple as that"...if you ignore actual context.
On October 12 2019 22:27 Excludos wrote: And that is the root of this entire situation. Blizzard prides itself a liberal company which defends such things as free speech and gay rights.
Blizzard only celebrates gay pride day/week/month in certain specific countries. Its not a company wide global initiative.
On October 12 2019 22:27 Excludos wrote: And that is the root of this entire situation. Blizzard prides itself a liberal company which defends such things as free speech and gay rights. Yet when faced with potentially losing out on the quarterly earnings from China, they completely backtracked their entire stance to pander to the thin skinned authoritarians.
nah, Blizzard cherry picks low hanging fruit. They've never been a "liberal company which defends.." anything. They almost never get into details of their political stances. The only exception I know of is Morhaime complaining about Trump's 90 day travel ban. Other than that one example Blizzard keeps all their "political philosophy" really vague and slippery.
Blizzard's "Mission Statement" and "Company Values" are really vague and filled with all kinds of warm and fuzzy meaningless catch phrases. This stuff is enough to fool their primary target audience which is young people with very little life experience.
These meaningless, vague catchphrases allow Blizzard to weave any narrative they want around any situation that comes up. They just did that yesterday around 8pm EST.
It'll be interesting to see if Blizzard elects to criticize Trump in the future.
On October 12 2019 22:27 Excludos wrote: And that is the root of this entire situation. Blizzard prides itself a liberal company which defends such things as free speech and gay rights. Yet when faced with potentially losing out on the quarterly earnings from China, they completely backtracked their entire stance to pander to the thin skinned authoritarians.
So yeah. It's exactly "as simple as that"...if you ignore actual context.
The simple answer to that is that they never had a stance.
Blizzard's only stance is that they say the best thing that they think they can say at any given place/time to give themselves the best chance of making more $$$. This is what big companies do. If you feel like a liberal company has let you down then you need to look at your own perspective on what massive companies' motives are.
The fact that they would portray themselves as defending gay rights is nothing more than pandering, its just a kind of pandering that you happen to enjoy.
This was my first thought when reading this. I use to do some proofreading for asian friends when in college. The writing here just seems unusual for a statement coming from an American company
Amazing how I was not the only one getting this from the flow of the speech.
On October 13 2019 01:19 Psyonic_Reaver wrote: So I doubt we’ll see any kind of response from TL about this, even though they’ve made political stances in the past.
On October 13 2019 01:19 Psyonic_Reaver wrote: So I doubt we’ll see any kind of response from TL about this, even though they’ve made political stances in the past.
On October 13 2019 01:19 Psyonic_Reaver wrote: So I doubt we’ll see any kind of response from TL about this, even though they’ve made political stances in the past.
On October 13 2019 01:19 Psyonic_Reaver wrote: So I doubt we’ll see any kind of response from TL about this, even though they’ve made political stances in the past.
On October 12 2019 17:23 opisska wrote: There is one important thing that people who defend Blizzard and/or China here are missing. Especially when they try to play the "this is a sensitive topic for the Chinese" card. The thing is that this is a sensitive topic for anyone who values western democracy. The reason why this is such a shitstorm is in a large part that it is about China. Because we are basically at war with China at this point. It's a war that is not fought with weapons (so fat) but with money.
China is systematically trying to impose their authoritarian views on the world using their money. So when this happens in a field we care about, we get angry. Nobody can demand that we judge China "fairly" or look at this incident in a vacuum and compare it to othsr aimilar incidents and react the same. No, China is the enemy right now and we should treat it like that. It's not about the fact that they ignore human rights and torture minorities, it's personal.
It's almost ironic that at the very same time of this fiasco, there is another China story in my hometown - the new mayor decided that he wants to exclude "we support one China" from the partnership agreement between Prague and Beijing. China went ballistic, the ambassador made official threats of withdrawing.this and that investment and everything with "Prague" in the name has been banned in china - concerts cancelled and similar stuff. What is even worse, the Czech president is deep in the ass of China, so he started even more threats - luckily he has no leverage on the city council.
This is how China works. Just recently they bought Solomon Islands by a lit of promise of investment to stop recongizing ROC. And worse things are happening in places we don't even see, such as Africa, which is poor enough that they buy it left and right. They are not only buying economical influence, but political and they insist that nobody who gets their money criticises them. This is simply not acceptable, I refuse to bow to a totalitarian regime again after my country suffered under some for the better part of the 20th century.
This is why it is OK to overreact here and why none of the "genuine chinese citizens showing us their views" should be given any consideration. This is a war and propaganda is a key weapon in it, let's treat it as such.
Because the west doesn't try to impose his shitty and corrupt politcal and cultural model over the worls by any means ? Just look at what you've done in middle east.
On October 13 2019 01:19 Psyonic_Reaver wrote: So I doubt we’ll see any kind of response from TL about this, even though they’ve made political stances in the past.
So I guess I’m going to push for an official response in a new thread.
Any why would TL made an official response about something that doesn't concern them? It wasn't a TL player was it?
Because they have made political posts and stances in the past. Why should we allow them to stay under the radar about this?
So TL owns you a response for this and several hundred other political statements made between now and whenever they made their first political post? Do hundreds of thousands of other websites that are unrelated to this also own you a response because they once made a political statement? Are they all bought by the Chinese if they don't?
Just for a moment think of the absurdity of demanding a response lest they be bought by foreign interests every time something political happens that you happen to care about. Because its only when you think to care about it, or can you link the post where you demanded TL make a political statement on the kneeling in the NFL, or after the NBA couch tweeted in support of Hong Kong. I don't particularly follow LoL, Dota or wherever TL has a player, I'm sure something political has happened there in the last decenia that TL didn't give a response to. Did you protest then?
On October 13 2019 01:19 Psyonic_Reaver wrote: So I doubt we’ll see any kind of response from TL about this, even though they’ve made political stances in the past.
So I guess I’m going to push for an official response in a new thread.
Any why would TL made an official response about something that doesn't concern them? It wasn't a TL player was it?
Because they have made political posts and stances in the past. Why should we allow them to stay under the radar about this?
So TL owns you a response for this and several hundred other political statements made between now and whenever they made their first political post? Do hundreds of thousands of other websites that are unrelated to this also own you a response because they once made a political statement? Are they all bought by the Chinese if they don't?
Just for a moment think of the absurdity of demanding a response lest they be bought by foreign interests every time something political happens that you happen to care about. Because its only when you think to care about it, or can you link the post where you demanded TL make a political statement on the kneeling in the NFL, or after the NBA couch tweeted in support of Hong Kong. I don't particularly follow LoL, Dota or wherever TL has a player, I'm sure something political has happened there in the last decenia that TL didn't give a response to. Did you protest then?
Well that would be an absurd expectation, agreed there.
If it involves Hearthstone, a game that TL ran a website on, albeit its closing soon, and Blizzard who oversee the majority of SC2 eSport content, if there’s anything you do comment on surely it is this?
Considering TL has made considerable money from Activision Blizzard and this website is a platform where official Blizzard management and Developers have posted, I would consider TL above the norm in terms of what I expect from them.
And it would be absurd to expect a video game website with no interests or players to comment on NFL matters. And I would not expect the 49ers to comment on what is happening in Hearthstone.
TL has players involved in Hearthstone and Activision Blizzard as a whole and I ask for a response.
Why do I want Blizzard E-Sports to remain as politically neutral as possible??? Because I like the fact that SC2 is an global sport, and I would like it to remain global. The Chinese viewers out numbered the western viewers by nearly 2 for every one western viewer. And that was without a single Chinese player even qualifying for Blizzcon. ( https://escharts.com/tournaments/sc2/wcs-global-finals-2018 )
This year TIME did qualify, so the viewers will likely increase by 2 or 300%. It's very likely that Blizzard will cut and eventually completely eliminate their support for SC2 E-Sports without the Chinese viewership. Why sacrifice SC2 E-Sports over buzzword political statements that change absolutely nothing in the world? If I want to read or discus politics, there are thousands of places I can do that freely already, but sometimes I get tired of politics and just want to enjoy SC2... How has politics ever improved the viewing experience of E-Sports? It just makes me feel more depressed about the world...
On October 13 2019 02:13 Xlancer wrote: Why do I want Blizzard E-Sports to remain as politically neutral as possible??? Because I like the fact that SC2 is an global sport, and I would like it to remain global. The Chinese viewers out numbered the western viewers by nearly 2 for every one western viewer. And that was without a single Chinese player even qualifying for Blizzcon. ( https://escharts.com/tournaments/sc2/wcs-global-finals-2018 )
This year TIME did qualify, so the viewers will likely increase by 2 or 300%. It's very likely that Blizzard will cut and eventually completely eliminate their support for SC2 E-Sports without the Chinese viewership. Why sacrifice SC2 E-Sports over buzzword political statements that change absolutely nothing in the world? If I want to read or discus politics, there are thousands of places I can do that freely already, but sometimes I get tired of politics and just want to enjoy SC2... How has politics ever improved the viewing experience of E-Sports? It just makes me feel more depressed about the world...
Is Blizzard really going to cut SC2? That leaves me speechless considering they actively tried to kill BW in order to promote SC2.
On October 13 2019 02:13 Xlancer wrote: Why do I want Blizzard E-Sports to remain as politically neutral as possible??? Because I like the fact that SC2 is an global sport, and I would like it to remain global. The Chinese viewers out numbered the western viewers by nearly 2 for every one western viewer. And that was without a single Chinese player even qualifying for Blizzcon. ( https://escharts.com/tournaments/sc2/wcs-global-finals-2018 )
This year TIME did qualify, so the viewers will likely increase by 2 or 300%. It's very likely that Blizzard will cut and eventually completely eliminate their support for SC2 E-Sports without the Chinese viewership. Why sacrifice SC2 E-Sports over buzzword political statements that change absolutely nothing in the world? If I want to read or discus politics, there are thousands of places I can do that freely already, but sometimes I get tired of politics and just want to enjoy SC2... How has politics ever improved the viewing experience of E-Sports? It just makes me feel more depressed about the world...
I understand the desire for that, but eSports is relatively new and perhaps its future direction is important to us.
Speaking purely from my own viewpoint anyway, both football and formula one are two sports that I love and used to follow closely with my dad respectively.
In the vacuum created by an understandable desire to keep politics out and grow the sport, authoritarian regimes have stepped in to use these mediums as propaganda vehicles for their states.
I don’t see eSports as being immune to this process, indeed it’s far more vulnerable potentially because the investment needed to get that influence is trifling compared to that.
On October 13 2019 02:13 Xlancer wrote: Why do I want Blizzard E-Sports to remain as politically neutral as possible??? Because I like the fact that SC2 is an global sport, and I would like it to remain global. The Chinese viewers out numbered the western viewers by nearly 2 for every one western viewer. And that was without a single Chinese player even qualifying for Blizzcon. ( https://escharts.com/tournaments/sc2/wcs-global-finals-2018 )
This year TIME did qualify, so the viewers will likely increase by 2 or 300%. It's very likely that Blizzard will cut and eventually completely eliminate their support for SC2 E-Sports without the Chinese viewership. Why sacrifice SC2 E-Sports over buzzword political statements that change absolutely nothing in the world? If I want to read or discus politics, there are thousands of places I can do that freely already, but sometimes I get tired of politics and just want to enjoy SC2... How has politics ever improved the viewing experience of E-Sports? It just makes me feel more depressed about the world...
Is Blizzard really going to cut SC2? That leaves me speechless considering they actively tried to kill BW in order to promote SC2.
On October 13 2019 02:18 Psyonic_Reaver wrote: Because it is impossible for things to remain neutral as the world grows more politically charged.
This is exactly the problem though. Demanding that companies take specific political stances will create a situation where the world grows more politically charged.
The more politics is allowed to enter video games, the more demand there will be for specific types of politics. All this will do is alienate people who hold different beliefs and divide, divide, divide.
What you want is for companies to pander to your beliefs.
Also you only want it in this case because there seems to be fairly unanimous support for Hong Kong among the people you talk to. That isn't true worldwide though. When you start getting into more heavily divided domestic issues you can see why politicising this stuff is a fucking awful idea.
Taking this to its logical conclusion:
How long before leftists play Blizzard games and Trumpies play some other companies' games (random example)?
Are we going to divide the whole of our society along political lines or are we going to allow neutrality anywhere?
Perhaps I should go canvas my local supermarkets to see which ones support which political policy.
Maybe I should stop supporting the football team I support because they didn't make a statement about the UK selling weapons to Saudi Arabia.
There's a guy who goes in the pub down the road who supports austerity, should I find a new place to drink or just demand that he explains himself every time I see him?
I agree that sports should not be politically charged. The problem is that with their reaction Blizzard actually took a political stance on the matter. Things like that occasionally happen in other sports, too. I have never seen such heavy handed response.
You're right the response was heavy handed. In fact, it was shit, but I don't really expect better. As I said in another thread, Disney erased Tibet from Dr Strange, which is equally as heavy handed.
On October 13 2019 02:49 Jockmcplop wrote: You're right the response was heavy handed. In fact, it was shit, but I don't really expect better. As I said in another thread, Disney erased Tibet from Dr Strange, which is equally as heavy handed.
In China. Which I’m not particularly a fan of but I would consider altering content to be published in China for Chinese sensibilities as different from censoring other people for offending Chinese sensibilities.
I believe some WoW models were altered as they were offensive in some manner for example, I think that’s a totally reasonable adjustment to culture.
Its a good idea to do this in case Blizzard decides to ninja edit their "Official Statement" because some of the grammar errors indicate a non-native english speaker constructed Brack's "statement".
On October 12 2019 22:27 Excludos wrote: And that is the root of this entire situation. Blizzard prides itself a liberal company which defends such things as free speech and gay rights. Yet when faced with potentially losing out on the quarterly earnings from China, they completely backtracked their entire stance to pander to the thin skinned authoritarians.
So yeah. It's exactly "as simple as that"...if you ignore actual context.
The simple answer to that is that they never had a stance.
Blizzard's only stance is that they say the best thing that they think they can say at any given place/time to give themselves the best chance of making more $$$. This is what big companies do. If you feel like a liberal company has let you down then you need to look at your own perspective on what massive companies' motives are.
The fact that they would portray themselves as defending gay rights is nothing more than pandering, its just a kind of pandering that you happen to enjoy.
Eh, that's fair. But, like you said, it was pandering that I enjoyed. So it has en extra effect on me when they show their real face for what it is.
On October 13 2019 02:13 Xlancer wrote: Why do I want Blizzard E-Sports to remain as politically neutral as possible??? Because I like the fact that SC2 is an global sport, and I would like it to remain global. The Chinese viewers out numbered the western viewers by nearly 2 for every one western viewer. And that was without a single Chinese player even qualifying for Blizzcon. ( https://escharts.com/tournaments/sc2/wcs-global-finals-2018 )
This year TIME did qualify, so the viewers will likely increase by 2 or 300%. It's very likely that Blizzard will cut and eventually completely eliminate their support for SC2 E-Sports without the Chinese viewership. Why sacrifice SC2 E-Sports over buzzword political statements that change absolutely nothing in the world? If I want to read or discus politics, there are thousands of places I can do that freely already, but sometimes I get tired of politics and just want to enjoy SC2... How has politics ever improved the viewing experience of E-Sports? It just makes me feel more depressed about the world...
So to hell with the world as long as you get your entertainment, is that it? The rest of us chooses not to support a company that is willing to defend human rights violations so they can keep padding their quarterly report.
On October 13 2019 02:18 Psyonic_Reaver wrote: Because it is impossible for things to remain neutral as the world grows more politically charged.
This is exactly the problem though. Demanding that companies take specific political stances will create a situation where the world grows more politically charged.
The more politics is allowed to enter video games, the more demand there will be for specific types of politics. All this will do is alienate people who hold different beliefs and divide, divide, divide.
What you want is for companies to pander to your beliefs.
Also you only want it in this case because there seems to be fairly unanimous support for Hong Kong among the people you talk to. That isn't true worldwide though. When you start getting into more heavily divided domestic issues you can see why politicising this stuff is a fucking awful idea.
How long before leftists play Blizzard games and Trumpies play some other companies' games (random example)?
Are we going to divide the whole of our society along political lines or are we going to allow neutrality anywhere?
Perhaps I should go canvas my local supermarkets to see which ones support which political policy.
Maybe I should stop supporting the football team I support because they didn't make a statement about the UK selling weapons to Saudi Arabia.
There's a guy who goes in the pub down the road who supports austerity, should I find a new place to drink or just demand that he explains himself every time I see him?
Basic human rights should not be a "divisive political stance". We can and should demand at least as much from our companies, yes.
On October 13 2019 03:33 Emnjay808 wrote: Hm. So sports SHOULD stay apolitical then? Or rather there should be an appropriate place and time for them, given a respective platform.
They have a platform all right. But it's not so clear very many of them have much of value to say on it. I think of the typical Hollywood type, swooping down on small communities to protest the seal hunt- never mind the seal in question is the wrong one (the one on all the pictures is very cute and cuddly, but not the one hunted by the Inuk). But will these Hollywood types actually engage in conversation with the Inuk {whose livelihood depends on the hunt and live in pretty dire circumstances), no. They are cowards. As soon as the Inuk decide to show up at the protests, the protesters vanish. If an Inuk finally gets a chance to speak their piece on national tv, the celebrity guest protester refuses to appear. Angry Inuk is an interesting documentary on this.
People with that sort of platform, tend to use it very safely to promote their own brand and run from controversy. Not much of value would be lost if they didn't use their platform as they tend to be under-informed in the issues they promote.
On October 13 2019 02:13 Xlancer wrote: Why do I want Blizzard E-Sports to remain as politically neutral as possible??? Because I like the fact that SC2 is an global sport, and I would like it to remain global. The Chinese viewers out numbered the western viewers by nearly 2 for every one western viewer. And that was without a single Chinese player even qualifying for Blizzcon. ( https://escharts.com/tournaments/sc2/wcs-global-finals-2018 )
This year TIME did qualify, so the viewers will likely increase by 2 or 300%. It's very likely that Blizzard will cut and eventually completely eliminate their support for SC2 E-Sports without the Chinese viewership. Why sacrifice SC2 E-Sports over buzzword political statements that change absolutely nothing in the world? If I want to read or discus politics, there are thousands of places I can do that freely already, but sometimes I get tired of politics and just want to enjoy SC2... How has politics ever improved the viewing experience of E-Sports? It just makes me feel more depressed about the world...
So to hell with the world as long as you get your entertainment, is that it? The rest of us chooses not to support a company that is willing to defend human rights violations so they can keep padding their quarterly report.
I'm not saying to hell with the world, I'm just saying that athletes should use one of a thousand other forums for their political statements. Why is it the belief that every communication forum must be used for political statements??? Can't we have some that are reserved solely for sports???
Emperor xi is a huge loser. I'm pretty pro china when talking to americans, but the guy is an excellent example of the logical conclusion of SJW cancel culture. So no winnie the pooh, no NBA, no south park, and if blizzard doesn't bow down then no blizzard either. what a joke.
note i dont care about hong kong protestors and their whining, but i support their right to whine. blizzard taking away someones prize winnings is just disgusting.
On October 13 2019 02:13 Xlancer wrote: Why do I want Blizzard E-Sports to remain as politically neutral as possible??? Because I like the fact that SC2 is an global sport, and I would like it to remain global. The Chinese viewers out numbered the western viewers by nearly 2 for every one western viewer. And that was without a single Chinese player even qualifying for Blizzcon. ( https://escharts.com/tournaments/sc2/wcs-global-finals-2018 )
This year TIME did qualify, so the viewers will likely increase by 2 or 300%. It's very likely that Blizzard will cut and eventually completely eliminate their support for SC2 E-Sports without the Chinese viewership. Why sacrifice SC2 E-Sports over buzzword political statements that change absolutely nothing in the world? If I want to read or discus politics, there are thousands of places I can do that freely already, but sometimes I get tired of politics and just want to enjoy SC2... How has politics ever improved the viewing experience of E-Sports? It just makes me feel more depressed about the world...
So to hell with the world as long as you get your entertainment, is that it? The rest of us chooses not to support a company that is willing to defend human rights violations so they can keep padding their quarterly report.
I'm not saying to hell with the world, I'm just saying that athletes should use one of a thousand other forums for their political statements. Why is it the belief that every communication forum must be used for political statements??? Can't we have some that are reserved solely for sports???
Because saying it on broadcast has maximum impact? If blitzchung said this on weibo, no one on here would give a shit
On October 13 2019 02:13 Xlancer wrote: Why do I want Blizzard E-Sports to remain as politically neutral as possible??? Because I like the fact that SC2 is an global sport, and I would like it to remain global. The Chinese viewers out numbered the western viewers by nearly 2 for every one western viewer. And that was without a single Chinese player even qualifying for Blizzcon. ( https://escharts.com/tournaments/sc2/wcs-global-finals-2018 )
This year TIME did qualify, so the viewers will likely increase by 2 or 300%. It's very likely that Blizzard will cut and eventually completely eliminate their support for SC2 E-Sports without the Chinese viewership. Why sacrifice SC2 E-Sports over buzzword political statements that change absolutely nothing in the world? If I want to read or discus politics, there are thousands of places I can do that freely already, but sometimes I get tired of politics and just want to enjoy SC2... How has politics ever improved the viewing experience of E-Sports? It just makes me feel more depressed about the world...
So to hell with the world as long as you get your entertainment, is that it? The rest of us chooses not to support a company that is willing to defend human rights violations so they can keep padding their quarterly report.
I'm not saying to hell with the world, I'm just saying that athletes should use one of a thousand other forums for their political statements. Why is it the belief that every communication forum must be used for political statements??? Can't we have some that are reserved solely for sports???
Because saying it on broadcast has maximum impact? If blitzchung said this on weibo, no one on here would give a shit
Also no-one would give a shit if Blizzard hadn't banned him.
On October 12 2019 21:02 aSpeaker wrote: As for the so-called Chinese influence that you are worried about, don't you think Is the same for the United States and Russia?
There is a severe difference in quality and quantity of said influence on the affair of others from US/Russia compared to China.
So no, it is not the same at all.
Maybe China should learn more from the United States and Russia and use more military power and economic sanctions to silence its opponents? Maybe they won't have time to gossip here at that time? These people are so just. Where were you during the war in Syria? Oh, you're probably blaming Bashar.
Oh yes my favorite troll argument. "The others are as bad, so we are fine." Yes, all super powers did horrible things. That doesn't make the PRC and the CCP less guilty of anything and it doesn't make Blizzard less guilty as well. Stop diverting the conversation.
No, you're wrong. We're not ashamed to be a superpower like the United States and Russia.
huh? you think Americans are ashamed of being a superpower? do you spend any time in the USA and interact with Americans in the real world? The "Make America Great Again" catch phrase has been around since 1980.
Of course not. I mean, it's good to be a superpower, although we would rather have more quasi-superpowers to help us fight against the United States. The world will not be a better place for the United States and its allies. But the United States and several quasi-powers are certainly better than the former.You should contact the previous article. He said that I was worse than the superpowers（actually）， but I felt that greater influence was a necessary feature of the superpowers, although it would make small non-allied countries uncomfortable.
On October 13 2019 02:13 Xlancer wrote: Why do I want Blizzard E-Sports to remain as politically neutral as possible??? Because I like the fact that SC2 is an global sport, and I would like it to remain global. The Chinese viewers out numbered the western viewers by nearly 2 for every one western viewer. And that was without a single Chinese player even qualifying for Blizzcon. ( https://escharts.com/tournaments/sc2/wcs-global-finals-2018 )
This year TIME did qualify, so the viewers will likely increase by 2 or 300%. It's very likely that Blizzard will cut and eventually completely eliminate their support for SC2 E-Sports without the Chinese viewership. Why sacrifice SC2 E-Sports over buzzword political statements that change absolutely nothing in the world? If I want to read or discus politics, there are thousands of places I can do that freely already, but sometimes I get tired of politics and just want to enjoy SC2... How has politics ever improved the viewing experience of E-Sports? It just makes me feel more depressed about the world...
So to hell with the world as long as you get your entertainment, is that it? The rest of us chooses not to support a company that is willing to defend human rights violations so they can keep padding their quarterly report.
I'm not saying to hell with the world, I'm just saying that athletes should use one of a thousand other forums for their political statements. Why is it the belief that every communication forum must be used for political statements??? Can't we have some that are reserved solely for sports???
Because saying it on broadcast has maximum impact? If blitzchung said this on weibo, no one on here would give a shit
Also no-one would give a shit if Blizzard hadn't banned him.
Also no-western-one would give a shit if Blizzard hadn't banned him. Oh, by the way, Twitter administrators are from Hong Kong and Taiwan. It seems that the objections can not be sent from China. This is also a false freedom of speech.At that time, they will say that all these accounts are backed by the Chinese government. Everyone knows that the Chinese government will only use some new accounts.And most people do not realize that many people do not express their opinions on Twitter. This is the saddest thing. When there are so many people who agree with one point of view, people who hold another point of view will remain silent. Think about the last U.S. election.
Isn't Blizzard lying in their statement when they say that China did not affect their decision? The official heartstone china twitter, explicitly stated that the casters were fired and the player had his entire price removed along with a suspension and that they would keep continuing to protect the pride of their country. They clearly made an connection between China as a country and the penalties for each party in that twitter.
Just when you thought ATVI couldn't get any worse! Enough already!
Just a little sarcastic break there. Some meta thoughts at a small remove from the actual event:
In possible responses from a corp (in modern ass-covering corp culture), full reinstatement of prize money and halving of suspension 4 (5?) days after decision is on high end of my expectations
They're still reaping appropriate ire for the insufficient statement
I'm moderately hopeful that future corporate board discussions downrank a double-speak response
If only South Park has balls and reaps praise for next year, it'll still be sad days in America.
On October 13 2019 02:36 Jockmcplop wrote: This is exactly the problem though. Demanding that companies take specific political stances will create a situation where the world grows more politically charged.
The more politics is allowed to enter video games, the more demand there will be for specific types of politics. All this will do is alienate people who hold different beliefs and divide, divide, divide.
I totally agree that companies should not be forced to take specific political stances.
I disagree completely with the second part though. When it becomes more normal for people to share political views and discuss them, they become more open and dovish. Not the other way round. So keeping politics out really only unites people on the surface. In the long run, it will divide people more and more.
"Keeping politics out of entertainment" can be economically beneficial for the organizers. And of course it is beneficial for people who want to only keep certain kinds of politics out. And that is why it happens.
they can't be serious about their statement. their relationship with China didn't influence their decision my ass. i guess it's not much of a shame that i won't be buying any more Blizzard games anymore considering the quality of their products lately.
On October 13 2019 02:36 Jockmcplop wrote: This is exactly the problem though. Demanding that companies take specific political stances will create a situation where the world grows more politically charged.
The more politics is allowed to enter video games, the more demand there will be for specific types of politics. All this will do is alienate people who hold different beliefs and divide, divide, divide.
I totally agree that companies should not be forced to take specific political stances.
I disagree completely with the second part though. When it becomes more normal for people to share political views and discuss them, they become more open and dovish. Not the other way round. So keeping politics out really only unites people on the surface. In the long run, it will divide people more and more.
"Keeping politics out of entertainment" can be economically beneficial for the organizers. And of course it is beneficial for people who want to only keep certain kinds of politics out. And that is why it happens.
Why is it economically beneficial for the organizers?
Because when there's no politics, there's no reason to exclude certain groups of people from the sport.
I don't want politics to be taboo, and political video games should be a thing, but in competitive situations all of that should be left elsewhere. Otherwise sports will just become another version of the Eurovision song contest.
On October 13 2019 17:20 Loisl wrote: I disagree completely with the second part though. When it becomes more normal for people to share political views and discuss them, they become more open and dovish. Not the other way round. So keeping politics out really only unites people on the surface. In the long run, it will divide people more and more.
Nah.
Kingdom Come Deliverance controversy shows it is not correct. The game director has righ-wing political opinion, true, but it was not reflected in the game. However, he was also accused of racism because he refused to make black characters in his game. Nevermind that local academic historians he consulted and discouraged him of that were much more likely more competent on topic than the "blog historians" who started debacle. The whole production was tainted from that moment with controversy and in the end both sides ended pissed.
I am so severely saddened by this, every voice matters but not even Blizz CEO is allowed to use his voice freely. Just signing the document sent to him by China
Been looking forward to D3 and a possible SC3, was planning to buying wc3 reforged too. But now I just hope they won't release anything I'm interested in because buying their products would make me feel dirty.
On October 13 2019 02:36 Jockmcplop wrote: This is exactly the problem though. Demanding that companies take specific political stances will create a situation where the world grows more politically charged.
The more politics is allowed to enter video games, the more demand there will be for specific types of politics. All this will do is alienate people who hold different beliefs and divide, divide, divide.
I totally agree that companies should not be forced to take specific political stances.
I disagree completely with the second part though. When it becomes more normal for people to share political views and discuss them, they become more open and dovish. Not the other way round. So keeping politics out really only unites people on the surface. In the long run, it will divide people more and more.
"Keeping politics out of entertainment" can be economically beneficial for the organizers. And of course it is beneficial for people who want to only keep certain kinds of politics out. And that is why it happens.
Why is it economically beneficial for the organizers?
Because when there's no politics, there's no reason to exclude certain groups of people from the sport.
I don't want politics to be taboo, and political video games should be a thing, but in competitive situations all of that should be left elsewhere. Otherwise sports will just become another version of the Eurovision song contest.
Trying to excise politics out of anything is fruitless.
Success on the track and field has political implications, public money is driven or not into sports programs. Dozens of Russian athletes are banned from competing at the international level, I wouldn't call the reasons for their banning political, but a patriotic Russian would.
Winning medals at the Olympics has prestige: Nations don't compete for the love of the game. Basically: if your competitions mean something to someone, it is political.
Yes we should try and leave bias at the door: but everything in sport is governed by politics: what the role of the athlete is, what drugs are allowed and not allowed, who is allowed to compete and where. So the emphasis is on try, because ultimately we will fail more often than not: I'm not pro failure, I'm pro acknowledging that failure will happen.
Just an one example:
Jesse Owens won 4 gold medals at the 1936 Olympics and that alone was a big fuck you to the (political) notion of Aryan supremacy. Not just aiming this at Nazi Germany, American was also a very big fan of the policy of racism and segregation.
Back to Blitzchung: He could have; not used his platform to speak out for what he thinks is right, or spoken out for what he thinks is right.
The second option has happened many times before and will happen many times again, Black power salutes to Bob Beamon pulling up his socks, the ones we remember seem to be the ones whose causes we now think of as right.
Organisers will never be able to option 2 from happening and will have to decide how to react. Enthusiastically support, political, Try and remain neutral: political, enthusiastically oppose still political.
On October 13 2019 02:36 Jockmcplop wrote: This is exactly the problem though. Demanding that companies take specific political stances will create a situation where the world grows more politically charged.
The more politics is allowed to enter video games, the more demand there will be for specific types of politics. All this will do is alienate people who hold different beliefs and divide, divide, divide.
I totally agree that companies should not be forced to take specific political stances.
I disagree completely with the second part though. When it becomes more normal for people to share political views and discuss them, they become more open and dovish. Not the other way round. So keeping politics out really only unites people on the surface. In the long run, it will divide people more and more.
"Keeping politics out of entertainment" can be economically beneficial for the organizers. And of course it is beneficial for people who want to only keep certain kinds of politics out. And that is why it happens.
Why is it economically beneficial for the organizers?
Because when there's no politics, there's no reason to exclude certain groups of people from the sport.
I don't want politics to be taboo, and political video games should be a thing, but in competitive situations all of that should be left elsewhere. Otherwise sports will just become another version of the Eurovision song contest.
Trying to excise politics out of anything is fruitless.
Success on the track and field has political implications, public money is driven or not into sports programs. Dozens of Russian athletes are banned from competing at the international level, I wouldn't call the reasons for their banning political, but a patriotic Russian would.
Winning medals at the Olympics has prestige: Nations don't compete for the love of the game. Basically: if your competitions mean something to someone, it is political.
Yes we should try and leave bias at the door: but everything in sport is governed by politics: what the role of the athlete is, what drugs are allowed and not allowed, who is allowed to compete and where. So the emphasis is on try, because ultimately we will fail more often than not: I'm not pro failure, I'm pro acknowledging that failure will happen.
Just an one example:
Jesse Owens won 4 gold medals at the 1936 Olympics and that alone was a big fuck you to the (political) notion of Aryan supremacy. Not just aiming this at Nazi Germany, American was also a very big fan of the policy of racism and segregation.
Back to Blitzchung: He could have; not used his platform to speak out for what he thinks is right, or spoken out for what he thinks is right.
The second option has happened many times before and will happen many times again, Black power salutes to Bob Beamon pulling up his socks, the ones we remember seem to be the ones whose causes we now think of as right.
Organisers will never be able to option 2 from happening and will have to decide how to react. Enthusiastically support, political, Try and remain neutral: political, enthusiastically oppose still political.
Personally I'm absolutely sick of politics making everyone hate each other (which is exactly what it does) and I don't want that ruining all the sports i like. I've got friends falling out with each other on facebook causing massive drama over stupid unnecessary political bullshit as it is, at least I can watch a game of starcraft without that being a problem.
I just think if you want more politics in sport, think of the worst thing that could happen because of that, and then ask yourself if its worth it, because from what I've seen people would be fine with it as long as its something that generally people agree about but if it gets to the point where the casters of a tournament can remind people to vote Trump or vote democrat or whatever in the middle of a cast it would literally ruin the game for me.
If you agree with that, then its clear you don't want politics in sport, you only want the politics you agree with in sport.
I like the Jesse Owens example.
Go back 10 years before that and much of sport was segregated because white managers and sportsmen were sick of being humiliated by losses to black athletes.
That's what politics in sport gets you.
So yeah, use politics in sport to fix pre-existing negative political situations that are relevant to sport, but leave the rest out of it imo.
I think the West has gotten too used to our own cultural dominating the entire world. And now when another culture rises up and challenges it, We are shocked and respond to it by throwing a childish tantrum trying to get our way. (Democracy is best! Free Hong Kong! Who would ever disagree with that??? WHINE WHINE WHINE)
The West isn't used to sharing it's cultural control over the world. We really haven't had our cultural domination challenged since the fall of the Soviet Union almost 30 years ago. Welcome to the new age where the Chinese Empire actually has a cultural influence in the world again... Time for the West to learn to share now that we can no longer beat all the other cultures into submission with our cultural superiority hammer.
On October 14 2019 23:35 Jockmcplop wrote: Personally I'm absolutely sick of politics making everyone hate each other (which is exactly what it does) and I don't want that ruining all the sports i like. I've got friends falling out with each other on facebook causing massive drama over stupid unnecessary political bullshit as it is, at least I can watch a game of starcraft without that being a problem.
I just think if you want more politics in sport, think of the worst thing that could happen because of that, and then ask yourself if its worth it, because from what I've seen people would be fine with it as long as its something that generally people agree about but if it gets to the point where the casters of a tournament can remind people to vote Trump or vote democrat or whatever in the middle of a cast it would literally ruin the game for me.
If you agree with that, then its clear you don't want politics in sport, you only want the politics you agree with in sport.
I like the Jesse Owens example.
Go back 10 years before that and much of sport was segregated because white managers and sportsmen were sick of being humiliated by losses to black athletes.
That's what politics in sport gets you.
So yeah, use politics in sport to fix pre-existing negative political situations that are relevant to sport, but leave the rest out of it imo.
It seems like you don't have a problem with the topic itself, just how it's handled and how it gets people fired up. Any topic can do that if people are sensitive/ignorant about it.
It doesn't follow that wanting to allow a topic like politics being discussed is the same as wanting to allow low-effort content about it like "vote Trump". I want people to talk about Starcraft but don't want people saying "hurr durr protoss is OP" or anything of the sort, I want nuanced and well thought-out discussion.
On October 14 2019 23:58 Xlancer wrote: I think the West has gotten too used to our own cultural dominating the entire world. And now when another culture rises up and challenges it, We are shocked and respond to it by throwing a childish tantrum trying to get our way. (Democracy is best! Free Hong Kong! Who would ever disagree with that??? WHINE WHINE WHINE)
The West isn't used to sharing it's cultural control over the world. We really haven't had our cultural domination challenged since the fall of the Soviet Union almost 30 years ago. Welcome to the new age where the Chinese Empire actually has a cultural influence in the world again... Time for the West to learn to share now that we can no longer beat all the other cultures into submission with our cultural superiority hammer.
While I can agree to a point avout westerners (like me) being used to our way of thinking being regarded as "right" and that "we" have used that to justify trampling smaller cultures in the past. Does that mean that since we have done bad stuff before we aren't allowed to complain when others do the same?
Also are you earnestly comparing what the western world has done in recent times with the way China and North Korea govern their empires. Do you really mean that you think the repressed and suffering people of CN NK should be allowed to continue because you think we ourselves as sinners are not allowed to help others?
Shouldn't it be the other way around, we did bad stuff, to make up for what we did turning a blind eye as you propose is the opposite of what we should do.
HK has been free from Chinas totalitarian rule for a long time, that has been challenged for a time now. While it is hard to do anything about the people already suffering at least it could be possible to support HKs fight for independence. An independence they have in part already been promised through a deal that is no longer being honored.
It is easy to whine about people whining, sadly there is also not a single thing more pointless than whining about why other people cares/does something. Imagine if you actually did something useful with that energy instead
On October 14 2019 23:35 Jockmcplop wrote: Personally I'm absolutely sick of politics making everyone hate each other (which is exactly what it does) and I don't want that ruining all the sports i like. I've got friends falling out with each other on facebook causing massive drama over stupid unnecessary political bullshit as it is, at least I can watch a game of starcraft without that being a problem.
I just think if you want more politics in sport, think of the worst thing that could happen because of that, and then ask yourself if its worth it, because from what I've seen people would be fine with it as long as its something that generally people agree about but if it gets to the point where the casters of a tournament can remind people to vote Trump or vote democrat or whatever in the middle of a cast it would literally ruin the game for me.
If you agree with that, then its clear you don't want politics in sport, you only want the politics you agree with in sport.
I like the Jesse Owens example.
Go back 10 years before that and much of sport was segregated because white managers and sportsmen were sick of being humiliated by losses to black athletes.
That's what politics in sport gets you.
So yeah, use politics in sport to fix pre-existing negative political situations that are relevant to sport, but leave the rest out of it imo.
It seems like you don't have a problem with the topic itself, just how it's handled and how it gets people fired up. Any topic can do that if people are sensitive/ignorant about it.
It doesn't follow that wanting to allow a topic like politics being discussed is the same as wanting to allow low-effort content about it like "vote Trump". I want people to talk about Starcraft but don't want people saying "hurr durr protoss is OP" or anything of the sort, I want nuanced and well thought-out discussion.
But we're talking about a guy shouting "Free HK" or "Revolution!" or something like that. Its hardly nuanced discussion. I have absolutely no problem with nuanced discussion about politics, but you aren't going to get that at an Esports event or probably any sports event to be honest.
Its just not really the best place for political discussion at all, and I'm not talking about the fans and whatever conversations they have at these events, I'm talking about the players and casters, who shouldn't expect the tournament organizers to endorse their political viewpoint or put out a broadcast that gives the impression that they do.
And sure, sports analysts can analyze events to see what political message you can get from stuff like the diversity or lack of.. of upcoming sportspeople. No problem. But the event itself should not be giving out a particular political message (including the sportspeople and casters who are paid to participate). This is because there exist some political messages that I wouldn't want endorsed by a tournament organizer, and once you open the gate and allow this stuff you can't differentiate between good and bad.
When it comes to this case in particular, people are acting like Blizzard just randomly decided to make a political statement for absolutely no reason. This is completely wrong. The player forced them to react to what he was doing, and they reacted badly, but he put the ball in their court so to speak.
On October 14 2019 23:58 Xlancer wrote: I think the West has gotten too used to our own cultural dominating the entire world. And now when another culture rises up and challenges it, We are shocked and respond to it by throwing a childish tantrum trying to get our way. (Democracy is best! Free Hong Kong! Who would ever disagree with that??? WHINE WHINE WHINE)
The West isn't used to sharing it's cultural control over the world. We really haven't had our cultural domination challenged since the fall of the Soviet Union almost 30 years ago. Welcome to the new age where the Chinese Empire actually has a cultural influence in the world again... Time for the West to learn to share now that we can no longer beat all the other cultures into submission with our cultural superiority hammer.
I don’t have an issue with Chinese culture being exported, I’d quite like to see more of their rich heritage and differing ways of viewing the world and art.
Nothing wrong with that, indeed there may be much we can learn from aspects of Chinese culture, or Indian culture if they get their act together, etc.
If the specific cultural export is throwing a hissy fit if anyone anywhere in the world mentions Tibet then, no thank you.
One can recognise the authoritarian brutality of the CCP and their policies and resist, or desire a resistance to those actions without making a claim of Western supremacy over Chinese cultural traditions.
On October 14 2019 23:35 Jockmcplop wrote: Personally I'm absolutely sick of politics making everyone hate each other (which is exactly what it does) and I don't want that ruining all the sports i like. I've got friends falling out with each other on facebook causing massive drama over stupid unnecessary political bullshit as it is, at least I can watch a game of starcraft without that being a problem.
I just think if you want more politics in sport, think of the worst thing that could happen because of that, and then ask yourself if its worth it, because from what I've seen people would be fine with it as long as its something that generally people agree about but if it gets to the point where the casters of a tournament can remind people to vote Trump or vote democrat or whatever in the middle of a cast it would literally ruin the game for me.
If you agree with that, then its clear you don't want politics in sport, you only want the politics you agree with in sport.
I like the Jesse Owens example.
Go back 10 years before that and much of sport was segregated because white managers and sportsmen were sick of being humiliated by losses to black athletes.
That's what politics in sport gets you.
So yeah, use politics in sport to fix pre-existing negative political situations that are relevant to sport, but leave the rest out of it imo.
It seems like you don't have a problem with the topic itself, just how it's handled and how it gets people fired up. Any topic can do that if people are sensitive/ignorant about it.
It doesn't follow that wanting to allow a topic like politics being discussed is the same as wanting to allow low-effort content about it like "vote Trump". I want people to talk about Starcraft but don't want people saying "hurr durr protoss is OP" or anything of the sort, I want nuanced and well thought-out discussion.
But we're talking about a guy shouting "Free HK" or "Revolution!" or something like that. Its hardly nuanced discussion. I have absolutely no problem with nuanced discussion about politics, but you aren't going to get that at an Esports event or probably any sports event to be honest.
Its just not really the best place for political discussion at all, and I'm not talking about the fans and whatever conversations they have at these events, I'm talking about the players and casters, who shouldn't expect the tournament organizers to endorse their political viewpoint or put out a broadcast that gives the impression that they do.
And sure, sports analysts can analyze events to see what political message you can get from stuff like the diversity or lack of.. of upcoming sportspeople. No problem. But the event itself should not be giving out a particular political message (including the sportspeople and casters who are paid to participate). This is because there exist some political messages that I wouldn't want endorsed by a tournament organizer, and once you open the gate and allow this stuff you can't differentiate between good and bad.
When it comes to this case in particular, people are acting like Blizzard just randomly decided to make a political statement for absolutely no reason. This is completely wrong. The player forced them to react to what he was doing, and they reacted badly, but he put the ball in their court so to speak.
That you need to react to something doesn't mean you need to send a political message, they could have taken their time deciding his punishment if their were unsure what was fitting or they could have (as is the norm with breaking etiquette on air) issued a warning.
They did not, they punished him 10 times harder than he deserved and sent a message to their Chinese audiance that they made sure to protect the Chinese honour.
There has been multiple examples of players pointing fuck yous to the camera, telling their opponents to *** off, being late, refusing interviews and so on. What is the usual penalty? Let me tell you that it isn't to steal all the prize money and a one year ban, that has never happened before.
I understand you want to seperate your sport and you politics, as do I but you know what I take greater offense when players swear at their opponents (or their own team) and behave openly toxic. That puts me in a worse mode and is also looks worse for the company in my opinion than a player voicing a politic opinion (if you believe human rights is a politic opinion). My point is sure don't condone politics in sport, but punish it fairly, with a warning.
On October 14 2019 23:58 Xlancer wrote: I think the West has gotten too used to our own cultural dominating the entire world. And now when another culture rises up and challenges it, We are shocked and respond to it by throwing a childish tantrum trying to get our way. (Democracy is best! Free Hong Kong! Who would ever disagree with that??? WHINE WHINE WHINE)
The West isn't used to sharing it's cultural control over the world. We really haven't had our cultural domination challenged since the fall of the Soviet Union almost 30 years ago. Welcome to the new age where the Chinese Empire actually has a cultural influence in the world again... Time for the West to learn to share now that we can no longer beat all the other cultures into submission with our cultural superiority hammer.
While I can agree to a point avout westerners (like me) being used to our way of thinking being regarded as "right" and that "we" have used that to justify trampling smaller cultures in the past. Does that mean that since we have done bad stuff before we aren't allowed to complain when others do the same?
Also are you earnestly comparing what the western world has done in recent times with the way China and North Korea govern their empires. Do you really mean that you think the repressed and suffering people of CN NK should be allowed to continue because you think we ourselves as sinners are not allowed to help others?
Shouldn't it be the other way around, we did bad stuff, to make up for what we did turning a blind eye as you propose is the opposite of what we should do.
HK has been free from Chinas totalitarian rule for a long time, that has been challenged for a time now. While it is hard to do anything about the people already suffering at least it could be possible to support HKs fight for independence. An independence they have in part already been promised through a deal that is no longer being honored.
It is easy to whine about people whining, sadly there is also not a single thing more pointless than whining about why other people cares/does something. Imagine if you actually did something useful with that energy instead
You make the important point here. HK has been free from Chinas totalitarian rule and it has prospered with economic and political system inherited from British times. That is definitely something worth preserving. The methods employed to undermine that, and with thuggish violence, just become so much worse considering what Hong Kong had and somewhat still has.
This contrast between then and now is very clear-cut, compared to generalizing it to some sort of western-eastern cultural struggle. The struggle of cultural influence is arguably a backdrop to a whole host of policies relating to China. This specific case is not well-explained by that backdrop. I don't support the Hong Kong protestors because of fears that their loss will expand China's influence in the region, and that could lead to more losses in neighboring western-aligned regions. I support them because I think China's behavior is inexcusable. It ought to be more universally condemned.
Now, you can write a think piece on what a victory for Hong Kong protestor's five demands would look like in terms of the cultural battle. That would be a very different thing than alleging the international support for HK protests go back to fears about western cultural dominance and childish tantrums.
On October 14 2019 23:58 Xlancer wrote: I think the West has gotten too used to our own cultural dominating the entire world. And now when another culture rises up and challenges it, We are shocked and respond to it by throwing a childish tantrum trying to get our way. (Democracy is best! Free Hong Kong! Who would ever disagree with that??? WHINE WHINE WHINE)
The West isn't used to sharing it's cultural control over the world. We really haven't had our cultural domination challenged since the fall of the Soviet Union almost 30 years ago. Welcome to the new age where the Chinese Empire actually has a cultural influence in the world again... Time for the West to learn to share now that we can no longer beat all the other cultures into submission with our cultural superiority hammer.
While I can agree to a point avout westerners (like me) being used to our way of thinking being regarded as "right" and that "we" have used that to justify trampling smaller cultures in the past. Does that mean that since we have done bad stuff before we aren't allowed to complain when others do the same?
Also are you earnestly comparing what the western world has done in recent times with the way China and North Korea govern their empires. Do you really mean that you think the repressed and suffering people of CN NK should be allowed to continue because you think we ourselves as sinners are not allowed to help others?
Shouldn't it be the other way around, we did bad stuff, to make up for what we did turning a blind eye as you propose is the opposite of what we should do.
HK has been free from Chinas totalitarian rule for a long time, that has been challenged for a time now. While it is hard to do anything about the people already suffering at least it could be possible to support HKs fight for independence. An independence they have in part already been promised through a deal that is no longer being honored.
It is easy to whine about people whining, sadly there is also not a single thing more pointless than whining about why other people cares/does something. Imagine if you actually did something useful with that energy instead
I wasn't saying that either culture was right or wrong, I was just saying that the West no longer has it's cultural monopoly. As such, we now need to learn how to get along with other cultures. Especially when we think those cultures are wrong. Throwing a tantrum only works vs weak parents (AKA most Western governments and corporations). A strong parent just ignores the tantrum and tells the child that when they won't listen until they begin to act like an adult.
On October 14 2019 23:58 Xlancer wrote: I think the West has gotten too used to our own cultural dominating the entire world. And now when another culture rises up and challenges it, We are shocked and respond to it by throwing a childish tantrum trying to get our way. (Democracy is best! Free Hong Kong! Who would ever disagree with that??? WHINE WHINE WHINE)
The West isn't used to sharing it's cultural control over the world. We really haven't had our cultural domination challenged since the fall of the Soviet Union almost 30 years ago. Welcome to the new age where the Chinese Empire actually has a cultural influence in the world again... Time for the West to learn to share now that we can no longer beat all the other cultures into submission with our cultural superiority hammer.
While I can agree to a point avout westerners (like me) being used to our way of thinking being regarded as "right" and that "we" have used that to justify trampling smaller cultures in the past. Does that mean that since we have done bad stuff before we aren't allowed to complain when others do the same?
Also are you earnestly comparing what the western world has done in recent times with the way China and North Korea govern their empires. Do you really mean that you think the repressed and suffering people of CN NK should be allowed to continue because you think we ourselves as sinners are not allowed to help others?
Shouldn't it be the other way around, we did bad stuff, to make up for what we did turning a blind eye as you propose is the opposite of what we should do.
HK has been free from Chinas totalitarian rule for a long time, that has been challenged for a time now. While it is hard to do anything about the people already suffering at least it could be possible to support HKs fight for independence. An independence they have in part already been promised through a deal that is no longer being honored.
It is easy to whine about people whining, sadly there is also not a single thing more pointless than whining about why other people cares/does something. Imagine if you actually did something useful with that energy instead
I wasn't saying that either culture was right or wrong, I was just saying that the West no longer has it's cultural monopoly. As such, we now need to learn how to get along with other cultures. Especially when we think those cultures are wrong. Throwing a tantrum only works vs weak parents (AKA most Western governments and corporations). A strong parent just ignores the tantrum and tells the child that when they won't listen until they begin to act like an adult.
Just to put things in perspective here: Are you comparing boycotting a company for supporting a regime which is breaking human rights to "throwing a tantrum"..?
Only a minority cares about having a cultural monopoly. But most people should care about human rights. It shouldn't be a fucking "divisive topic". It's pretty much the only thing no one should ever settle on. It should be binary; don't do it.
On October 14 2019 23:58 Xlancer wrote: I think the West has gotten too used to our own cultural dominating the entire world. And now when another culture rises up and challenges it, We are shocked and respond to it by throwing a childish tantrum trying to get our way. (Democracy is best! Free Hong Kong! Who would ever disagree with that??? WHINE WHINE WHINE)
The West isn't used to sharing it's cultural control over the world. We really haven't had our cultural domination challenged since the fall of the Soviet Union almost 30 years ago. Welcome to the new age where the Chinese Empire actually has a cultural influence in the world again... Time for the West to learn to share now that we can no longer beat all the other cultures into submission with our cultural superiority hammer.
While I can agree to a point avout westerners (like me) being used to our way of thinking being regarded as "right" and that "we" have used that to justify trampling smaller cultures in the past. Does that mean that since we have done bad stuff before we aren't allowed to complain when others do the same?
Also are you earnestly comparing what the western world has done in recent times with the way China and North Korea govern their empires. Do you really mean that you think the repressed and suffering people of CN NK should be allowed to continue because you think we ourselves as sinners are not allowed to help others?
Shouldn't it be the other way around, we did bad stuff, to make up for what we did turning a blind eye as you propose is the opposite of what we should do.
HK has been free from Chinas totalitarian rule for a long time, that has been challenged for a time now. While it is hard to do anything about the people already suffering at least it could be possible to support HKs fight for independence. An independence they have in part already been promised through a deal that is no longer being honored.
It is easy to whine about people whining, sadly there is also not a single thing more pointless than whining about why other people cares/does something. Imagine if you actually did something useful with that energy instead
I wasn't saying that either culture was right or wrong, I was just saying that the West no longer has it's cultural monopoly. As such, we now need to learn how to get along with other cultures. Especially when we think those cultures are wrong. Throwing a tantrum only works vs weak parents (AKA most Western governments and corporations). A strong parent just ignores the tantrum and tells the child that when they won't listen until they begin to act like an adult.
Just to put things in perspective here: Are you comparing boycotting a company for supporting a regime which is breaking human rights to "throwing a tantrum"..?
Only a minority cares about having a cultural monopoly. But most people should care about human rights. It shouldn't be a fucking "divisive topic". It's pretty much the only thing no one should ever settle on. It should be binary; don't do it.
Personally I would make that comparison yeah.
What concerns me here is that you seem to be suggesting that anyone who doesn't support the boycott on Blizzard doesn't care about human rights. I guess that means you'd be happy for me to send you a list of other companies you should be boycotting. You might be very, very surprised. You might also find it difficult to buy groceries or pretty much anything.
This is an arbitrary tantrum being thrown at Blizzard.
I support the people boycotting Blizzard who are doing so honestly, who admit that it isn't just this situation, but that this is more of a 'straw that broke the camel's back' thing where Blizzard have been generally pissing people off for ages and now this is the thing that finally pushes people into a boycott. Fine, that makes sense.
Boycotting them for enforcing their own rules and then making a bad statement... Well you're within your rights to do so, but if you don't boycott other companies who have done similar things then its arbitrary, and its a tantrum, its not because you are oh so virtuous and people who disagree hate human rights.
Just to put things in perspective here: Are you comparing boycotting a company for supporting a regime which is breaking human rights to "throwing a tantrum"..?
Only a minority cares about having a cultural monopoly. But most people should care about human rights. It shouldn't be a fucking "divisive topic". It's pretty much the only thing no one should ever settle on. It should be binary; don't do it.
I never really believed my wife when she said that Westerners were very arrogant. "It should be binary; don't do it." Don't be naive. The world's not that simplistic. A lot of people in the West disagree on human rights. Just consider a healthy mother who get's an abortion, a very large number of people in the West consider it to be infanticide. That's about as divisive as an issue can get...
Just to put things in perspective here: Are you comparing boycotting a company for supporting a regime which is breaking human rights to "throwing a tantrum"..?
Only a minority cares about having a cultural monopoly. But most people should care about human rights. It shouldn't be a fucking "divisive topic". It's pretty much the only thing no one should ever settle on. It should be binary; don't do it.
I never really believed my wife when she said that Westerners were very arrogant. "It should be binary; don't do it." Don't be naive. The world's not that simplistic. A lot of people in the West disagree on human rights. Just consider a healthy mother who get's an abortion, a very large number of people in the West consider it to be infanticide. That's about as divisive as an issue can get...
TIL: Believing in and supporting human rights is now considered arrogant. Anything else you think we westerners should just overlook because we're so arrogant? The environment perhaps?
You also fundamentally misunderstand what a human right is. It's not something that is open to interpretation. It's a deceleration agreed upon and signed by the vast majority of the world. un.org is down right now, so you will have to make do with a third party source: https://www.samaritanmag.com/we-have-30-basic-human-rights-do-you-know-them
As you can see, having an abortion (or not) is not on that list. Thus it is not considered a human right to be able to have one, or breaking a human right by having one. The example you brought up has, in fact, nothing to do with the subject at hand.
Again, I must reiterate: Supporting human rights should be binary, it's very much "for or against". It should not be a "divisive topic", and you don't get to call people fucking arrogant for supporting it. It's not often I say this, but you should listen less to your wife.
On October 15 2019 04:22 xM(Z wrote: "rights" is something one needs to afford to have so yea, it is arrogant to see 'the human rights' as a given in any context/circumstance.
Are you perhaps insinuating that China can't afford to provide human rights for its own population? Do you think their concentration camps, censorship and organ harvesting is a cause of the country being too poor not to do it?
I don't expect a country to have a high score of human rights at any given time. I expect them to try. This is not arrogant. China isn't breaking human rights because they don't have a choice, they're breaking them because it's convenient.
Fucking hell, I never thought I'd see the day when believing in human rights would be considered arrogant. I hope this is a bad joke of some kind.
it is not the believe in it, it's the demand of others to adhere to it's letter. Chinas' reasons notwithstanding, "afford" in that context is not strictly related to money; it could also be need related: do the chinese need(for themselves) to have <X> right?.
TIL: Believing in and supporting human rights is now considered arrogant. Anything else you think we westerners should just overlook because we're so arrogant? The environment perhaps?
You also fundamentally misunderstand what a human right is. It's not something that is open to interpretation. It's a deceleration agreed upon and signed by the vast majority of the world. un.org is down right now, so you will have to make do with a third party source: https://www.samaritanmag.com/we-have-30-basic-human-rights-do-you-know-them
As you can see, having an abortion (or not) is not on that list. Thus it is not considered a human right to be able to have one, or breaking a human right by having one. The example you brought up has, in fact, nothing to do with the subject at hand.
Again, I must reiterate: Supporting human rights should be binary, it's very much "for or against". It should not be a "divisive topic", and you don't get to call people fucking arrogant for supporting it. It's not often I say this, but you should listen less to your wife.
That's a good 70 year old list of ideals, but I doubt the UN meant for that list of human rights to be considered exhaustive. That's probably just the largest list of human rights that the UN could get unanimous or near unanimous approval for at the time. Catholics, Feminists, Muslims, Atheists, Protestants, Buddhists, etc. would certainly like to add human rights to that list.
Ironically the "China" that signed the treaty didn't even control mainland China at the time... The UN didn't even recognize China's government as legitimate until the 1970s... Additionally the People's Republic of China was a popular uprising against the far more brutal and totalitarian Republic of China government.
TIL: Believing in and supporting human rights is now considered arrogant. Anything else you think we westerners should just overlook because we're so arrogant? The environment perhaps?
You also fundamentally misunderstand what a human right is. It's not something that is open to interpretation. It's a deceleration agreed upon and signed by the vast majority of the world. un.org is down right now, so you will have to make do with a third party source: https://www.samaritanmag.com/we-have-30-basic-human-rights-do-you-know-them
As you can see, having an abortion (or not) is not on that list. Thus it is not considered a human right to be able to have one, or breaking a human right by having one. The example you brought up has, in fact, nothing to do with the subject at hand.
Again, I must reiterate: Supporting human rights should be binary, it's very much "for or against". It should not be a "divisive topic", and you don't get to call people fucking arrogant for supporting it. It's not often I say this, but you should listen less to your wife.
That's a good 70 year old list of ideals, but I doubt the UN meant for that list of human rights to be considered exhaustive. That's probably just the largest list of human rights that the UN could get unanimous or near unanimous approval for at the time. Catholics, Feminists, Muslims, Atheists, Protestants, Buddhists, etc. would certainly like to add human rights to that list.
Ironically the "China" that signed the treaty didn't even control mainland China at the time... The UN didn't even recognize China's government as legitimate until the 1970s... Additionally the People's Republic of China was a popular uprising against the far more brutal and totalitarian Republic of China government.
Sure. I would have liked to add several things to that list as well. Abortion was brought up earlier for instance, and I believe everyone has the right to choose. Unfortunately, this is the list that we could get everyone to agree upon, thus why it's not and should not be a divisive topic.
I also believe the US is one of the countries which did not sign it. Or rather, they signed it but didn't ratify it, meaning they don't intend to follow it. Which is..less than ideal. I also think human rights abuses in the US, which there is an abundance of, is not acceptable, and will be enforcing my views equally on any company which supports or defends breaking them.
On October 15 2019 04:33 xM(Z wrote: it is not the believe in it, it's the demand of others to adhere to it's letter. Chinas' reasons notwithstanding, "afford" in that context is not strictly related to money; it could also be need related: do the chinese need(for themselves) to have <X> right?.
You are digging very deep to defend human rights abuses here. When you start to ask "Do they really need human rights?" you should really take a step back and try to analyse exactly what you're insinuating here. If Sweden just went and murdered their entire Jew population, I don't think you would be asking "Yes, but does the Jews really need human rights? Who are we to judge Sweden for doing this? It's really arrogant to believe Sweden should follow the human rights".
What exactly makes it more ok for China to break human rights than Sweden? We've already established that money isn't the limiting factor here, so what is?
Sure. I would have liked to add several things to that list as well. Abortion was brought up earlier for instance, and I believe everyone has the right to choose. Unfortunately, this is the list that we could get everyone to agree upon, thus why it's not and should not be a divisive topic.
I also believe the US is one of the countries which did not sign it. Or rather, they signed it but didn't ratify it, meaning they don't intend to follow it. Which is..less than ideal. I also think human rights abuses in the US, which there is an abundance of, is not acceptable, and will be enforcing my views equally on any company which supports or defends breaking them
You try talking to my father-in-law and then tell me it's not a divisive topic... I think the vast majority of Westerners really have no idea what the people of China and other eastern cultures actually think. To most of us it's actually unimaginable to think that anyone wouldn't agree with our definition of human rights. Also abortion is covered under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights: "3. The right to life. We all have the right to life, and to live in freedom and safety." I'm not sure how I missed it the first time. For being the supposed governing body of the world, the UN has a truly shitty website... How is it still down???
On October 15 2019 04:22 xM(Z wrote: "rights" is something one needs to afford to have so yea, it is arrogant to see 'the human rights' as a given in any context/circumstance.
Are you perhaps insinuating that China can't afford to provide human rights for its own population? Do you think their concentration camps, censorship and organ harvesting is a cause of the country being too poor not to do it?
I don't expect a country to have a high score of human rights at any given time. I expect them to try. This is not arrogant. China isn't breaking human rights because they don't have a choice, they're breaking them because it's convenient.
Fucking hell, I never thought I'd see the day when believing in human rights would be considered arrogant. I hope this is a bad joke of some kind.
I cannot stop laughing when I read about your “organ harvest” thing, and you don’t know the reason behind your “concentration camp”, it happens after tens of thousands of people get killed by terrorists actions led by extreme mulism ideas. When it occurs like everyday in China, what would you think the government shall do? Kill them all? Expel them all? Or try to do something to stop their terrorists behaviour, like cutting their communication with the organisation like ISIS, and “educating” them that violence is wrong? Yes, you can say all these are breaking human right, but at least it protects other’s lives.
Please have a look on the video and see what is real happening in Hk. (Just last weekend)
So this is the freedom you western people stand for? And you think you have the freedom of speech to support such behaviour? If you really believe so, then I cannot see supporting racism is intolerable (i’m not supporting, it’s a comparison)
Wrong behaviour is wrong, no matter their slogan is or how justice their initial appeal is. The police seems the most restrained one in the world and your western media say that they are abusing their power. I thought in the modern world, people can jump over their media and read more opinions, but seems you guys just believe your media tells you and don’t want to listen anything that oppose to them.
“Freedom is right, China has its freedom problem, China is using their money to silence people, Xi is looking for dictatorship which is bad”, yeah we all know that and please don’t repeat again and again. You can feel negative to China, it’s your freedom, but it doesn’t mean that you shall support something wrong to oppose China.
The reason you think Blizzards shall not listen to China is you believe hk riots are justified and Chinese people are overreacting. But if you really do lots of research and know the truth, you may think Chinese have their point and it’s blizzard right to stand with China (I am saying it is right, I am just saying it is not wrong).
On October 15 2019 06:58 Xlancer wrote: "3. The right to life. We all have the right to life, and to live in freedom and safety." I'm not sure how I missed it the first time. For being the supposed governing body of the world, the UN has a truly shitty website... How is it still down???
"safety" sounds great in theory. However, there is a such thing as too much safety. In many parts of Canada and the USA kids are so "safe" these days that they are unequipped to deal with real life. This has manifest itself in a a bunch of 20 to 25 year olds who are pretty useless. I'm 32. For me, its a great form of job security having a new generation underneath me that is totally useless.
I don't think complete and total safety results in resilient adults able to deal with the vicissitudes of real life. States like Utah have had to institute "free range" parenting laws that permit parents to let their kids fend for themselves. This is because too many "do gooders" are squealing on parents who let their kids do their own thing.
One of my clients is the largest nursing organization in Canada. The best young nurses all grew up under tough circumstances. The Canadian born and raised nurses under 30 who grew up in upper middle class bubbles of safety and protection are pretty close to useless. They fold under pressure. They are constantly seeking out grievance at every turn. Fortunately, this organization is quickly learning this lesson and altering their hiring practices accordingly.
So ya, safety sounds good. Too much safety is bad.
When the going gets tough. The tough .... get going.
On October 15 2019 07:34 CraigWT wrote: The police seems the most restrained one in the world and your western media say that they are abusing their power. I thought in the modern world, people can jump over their media and read more opinions, but seems you guys just believe your media tells you and don’t want to listen anything that oppose to them.
That is such a bullshit statement. Shooting tear gas from rooftops, beating people on the train, not letting paramedics help protesters, coordinating with the triad, using weapons indoors that are meant only for outside use.
It's not western media saying that are abusing their power, it is the Hong Kong people. It's one of their demands for fucks sake to investigate the police.
The vast majority are like this and not vandalizing mainland businesses:
On October 15 2019 07:34 CraigWT wrote: The police seems the most restrained one in the world and your western media say that they are abusing their power. I thought in the modern world, people can jump over their media and read more opinions, but seems you guys just believe your media tells you and don’t want to listen anything that oppose to them.
That is such a bullshit statement. Shooting tear gas from rooftops, beating people on the train, not letting paramedics help protesters, coordinating with the triad, using weapons indoors that are meant only for outside use.
It's not western media saying that are abusing their power, it is the Hong Kong people. It's one of their demands for fucks sake to investigate the police.
The vast majority are like this and not vandalizing mainland businesses:
Again, I am a hk citizen and another arrogant western believe he knows much more than we do. I stated several times in this thread, the peaceful protest just happen at the first month of the 4 months protest. Now it is completely changed. And you blinded people will not click on those videos and see what real situation is.
This happened in the early August, since then peaceful protest has gone. Hopefully one day you can do the same thing to your police and see how they respond
On October 15 2019 07:34 CraigWT wrote: The police seems the most restrained one in the world and your western media say that they are abusing their power. I thought in the modern world, people can jump over their media and read more opinions, but seems you guys just believe your media tells you and don’t want to listen anything that oppose to them.
That is such a bullshit statement. Shooting tear gas from rooftops, beating people on the train, not letting paramedics help protesters, coordinating with the triad, using weapons indoors that are meant only for outside use.
It's not western media saying that are abusing their power, it is the Hong Kong people. It's one of their demands for fucks sake to investigate the police.
The vast majority are like this and not vandalizing mainland businesses:
Again, you arrogant people always think you are right, and maybe think this old lady is brainwashed, what she said is totally fake, and all the bricks are fake. Keep saying “peaceful demonstration” can only proved you are a brainwashed man.
Regarding HK protest, it has been proven that many Chinese police have disguised themselves as protesters to conduct violence.
Regardless of violence though, you can't blame HKers for protesting because carrie lam (controlled by the communist party) made stupid move of barring masks. The movement was dying down after completely getting rid of the extradition bill.
On October 15 2019 11:32 CorsairHero wrote: tonights protest: try again
Hopefully you can find a photo rather than apple daily, the most famous anti-government media in hk. A Canadian living across the world, think he knows much more hk than hk citizens, how smart you are.
And all your photos are just long range picture with a moment, you just cannot know what exact happened there. And all of your photo cannot even show a single police, your statement about police is so absurd based on your photo. A hater will hate no matter how, whatever how many videos I post here, you still gonna be a hater, so I won’t keep playing this stupid game with you, but everyone that read the thread will have their judgement.
On October 15 2019 11:42 zenist wrote: Regarding HK protest, it has been proven that many Chinese police have disguised themselves as protesters to conduct violence.
Regardless of violence though, you can't blame HKers for protesting because carrie lam (controlled by the communist party) made stupid move of barring masks. The movement was dying down after completely getting rid of the extradition bill.
Again, I em a hker and many of our hkers are blaming these riots. We are not like your outsiders, we live here. Like I said before, it is not the matter that their appeal is right or wrong, it is the matter that they are destroying the city, destroying other people’s life.
If you think to pursue a good purpose, we can make use of bad methods, the terrorists may not be always wrong?
On October 15 2019 11:32 CorsairHero wrote: tonights protest: try again
Hopefully you can find a photo rather than apple daily, the most famous anti-government media in hk. A Canadian living across the world, think he knows much more hk than hk citizens, how smart you are.
And all your photos are just long range picture with a moment, you just cannot know what exact happened there. And all of your photo cannot even show a single police, your statement about police is so absurd based on your photo. A hater will hate no matter how, whatever how many videos I post here, you still gonna be a hater, so I won’t keep playing this stupid game with you, but everyone that read the thread will have their judgement.
Yeah you sound like someone who is clearly biased. You keep talking about western media as if 100 countries with different newspapers and angles function as one anti China operation. Western media is just media.
On October 15 2019 12:00 CorsairHero wrote: Keep pointing out my location because that's all you can do.
Thanks for joining TL after the protests started.
Yes, because I am not stupid enough to see I know a lot more than you do about Vancouver or Toronto, etc.
I am a heavy liquidpedia user before. And I just read tl thread and don’t reply since I am not an native English speaker. I first sign up this account for balance talk since I think the game balance is broken, now it just has another reason, to let people know the truth about hk and let people know how biased and blind a man could be
On October 15 2019 12:00 CorsairHero wrote: Keep pointing out my location because that's all you can do.
Thanks for joining TL after the protests started.
It's pretty disingenuous to post pictures apple daily which has consistently been anti gov and anti mainland in it's reporting. I'm glad cheap biased reporting gets called out.
On October 15 2019 11:32 CorsairHero wrote: tonights protest: try again
Hopefully you can find a photo rather than apple daily, the most famous anti-government media in hk. A Canadian living across the world, think he knows much more hk than hk citizens, how smart you are.
And all your photos are just long range picture with a moment, you just cannot know what exact happened there. And all of your photo cannot even show a single police, your statement about police is so absurd based on your photo. A hater will hate no matter how, whatever how many videos I post here, you still gonna be a hater, so I won’t keep playing this stupid game with you, but everyone that read the thread will have their judgement.
Yeah you sound like someone who is clearly biased. You keep talking about western media as if 100 countries with different newspapers and angles function as one anti China operation. Western media is just media.
Western media serves the interest of the ruling class in the west. Which is predominately free market capitalist. Of course they will have an incentive to portray state capitalist China in a bad light.
On October 15 2019 12:00 CorsairHero wrote: Keep pointing out my location because that's all you can do.
Thanks for joining TL after the protests started.
It's pretty disingenuous to post pictures apple daily which has consistently been anti gov and anti mainland in it's reporting. I'm glad cheap biased reporting gets called out.
On October 15 2019 11:32 CorsairHero wrote: tonights protest: try again
Hopefully you can find a photo rather than apple daily, the most famous anti-government media in hk. A Canadian living across the world, think he knows much more hk than hk citizens, how smart you are.
And all your photos are just long range picture with a moment, you just cannot know what exact happened there. And all of your photo cannot even show a single police, your statement about police is so absurd based on your photo. A hater will hate no matter how, whatever how many videos I post here, you still gonna be a hater, so I won’t keep playing this stupid game with you, but everyone that read the thread will have their judgement.
Yeah you sound like someone who is clearly biased. You keep talking about western media as if 100 countries with different newspapers and angles function as one anti China operation. Western media is just media.
Okay, just for clarify, what Chinese people say about “western media” normally means BBC and CNN and similar medias that strongly oppose to PRC. In fact, many western self media and people filing videos about hk and say something true in the YouTube, but they are not big enough to show their message to the world. You need do research and you will have a clearer and unbiased mind on what’s happening (not just hk issue, for all things), but normally people don’t want to do research and just listen to the big medias.
On October 15 2019 12:00 CorsairHero wrote: Keep pointing out my location because that's all you can do.
Thanks for joining TL after the protests started.
It's pretty disingenuous to post pictures apple daily which has consistently been anti gov and anti mainland in it's reporting. I'm glad cheap biased reporting gets called out.
On October 15 2019 11:32 CorsairHero wrote: tonights protest: try again
Hopefully you can find a photo rather than apple daily, the most famous anti-government media in hk. A Canadian living across the world, think he knows much more hk than hk citizens, how smart you are.
And all your photos are just long range picture with a moment, you just cannot know what exact happened there. And all of your photo cannot even show a single police, your statement about police is so absurd based on your photo. A hater will hate no matter how, whatever how many videos I post here, you still gonna be a hater, so I won’t keep playing this stupid game with you, but everyone that read the thread will have their judgement.
Yeah you sound like someone who is clearly biased. You keep talking about western media as if 100 countries with different newspapers and angles function as one anti China operation. Western media is just media.
Western media serves the interest of the ruling class in the west. Which is predominately free market capitalist. Of course they will have an incentive to portray state capitalist China in a bad light.
Us vs Them. Try losing that schtick.
Here’s the great thing about News in general, you can read different papers and sources and make up your own mind.
On October 15 2019 11:32 CorsairHero wrote: tonights protest: try again
Hopefully you can find a photo rather than apple daily, the most famous anti-government media in hk. A Canadian living across the world, think he knows much more hk than hk citizens, how smart you are.
And all your photos are just long range picture with a moment, you just cannot know what exact happened there. And all of your photo cannot even show a single police, your statement about police is so absurd based on your photo. A hater will hate no matter how, whatever how many videos I post here, you still gonna be a hater, so I won’t keep playing this stupid game with you, but everyone that read the thread will have their judgement.
Yeah you sound like someone who is clearly biased. You keep talking about western media as if 100 countries with different newspapers and angles function as one anti China operation. Western media is just media.
Western media serves the interest of the ruling class in the west. Which is predominately free market capitalist. Of course they will have an incentive to portray state capitalist China in a bad light.
Do you even realize you're posting in a thread about blizzard bending over for china?
On October 15 2019 11:32 CorsairHero wrote: tonights protest: try again
Hopefully you can find a photo rather than apple daily, the most famous anti-government media in hk. A Canadian living across the world, think he knows much more hk than hk citizens, how smart you are.
And all your photos are just long range picture with a moment, you just cannot know what exact happened there. And all of your photo cannot even show a single police, your statement about police is so absurd based on your photo. A hater will hate no matter how, whatever how many videos I post here, you still gonna be a hater, so I won’t keep playing this stupid game with you, but everyone that read the thread will have their judgement.
Yeah you sound like someone who is clearly biased. You keep talking about western media as if 100 countries with different newspapers and angles function as one anti China operation. Western media is just media.
Western media serves the interest of the ruling class in the west. Which is predominately free market capitalist. Of course they will have an incentive to portray state capitalist China in a bad light.
Us vs Them. Try losing that schtick.
Here’s the great thing about News in general, you can read different papers and sources and make up your own mind.
On October 15 2019 11:32 CorsairHero wrote: tonights protest: try again
Hopefully you can find a photo rather than apple daily, the most famous anti-government media in hk. A Canadian living across the world, think he knows much more hk than hk citizens, how smart you are.
And all your photos are just long range picture with a moment, you just cannot know what exact happened there. And all of your photo cannot even show a single police, your statement about police is so absurd based on your photo. A hater will hate no matter how, whatever how many videos I post here, you still gonna be a hater, so I won’t keep playing this stupid game with you, but everyone that read the thread will have their judgement.
Yeah you sound like someone who is clearly biased. You keep talking about western media as if 100 countries with different newspapers and angles function as one anti China operation. Western media is just media.
Western media serves the interest of the ruling class in the west. Which is predominately free market capitalist. Of course they will have an incentive to portray state capitalist China in a bad light.
Do you even realize you're posting in a thread about blizzard bending over for china?
Of course, we can get back on topic if that suits everyone here. Blizzard is definitely wrong for what it did, any private corporations should have no business getting involved in politics. Politics is the domain of human beings which corporations are not.
On October 15 2019 12:00 CorsairHero wrote: Keep pointing out my location because that's all you can do.
Thanks for joining TL after the protests started.
It's pretty disingenuous to post pictures apple daily which has consistently been anti gov and anti mainland in it's reporting. I'm glad cheap biased reporting gets called out.
It’s just a corner of the protest and what I post here is a day summary, Every protest have their peaceful area, and you cannot let this area to represent the entire protest.
Of course you can also claim that the violent part cannot represent the entire protest, like SCMP’s video, even on a most violent day, still some peaceful protests stand there and stand for their appeals. But the thing is the damage caused by the riots is huge, is unacceptable for our normal citizens.
On October 15 2019 11:32 CorsairHero wrote: tonights protest: try again
Hopefully you can find a photo rather than apple daily, the most famous anti-government media in hk. A Canadian living across the world, think he knows much more hk than hk citizens, how smart you are.
And all your photos are just long range picture with a moment, you just cannot know what exact happened there. And all of your photo cannot even show a single police, your statement about police is so absurd based on your photo. A hater will hate no matter how, whatever how many videos I post here, you still gonna be a hater, so I won’t keep playing this stupid game with you, but everyone that read the thread will have their judgement.
Yeah you sound like someone who is clearly biased. You keep talking about western media as if 100 countries with different newspapers and angles function as one anti China operation. Western media is just media.
Western media serves the interest of the ruling class in the west. Which is predominately free market capitalist. Of course they will have an incentive to portray state capitalist China in a bad light.
Us vs Them. Try losing that schtick.
Here’s the great thing about News in general, you can read different papers and sources and make up your own mind.
On October 15 2019 12:00 CorsairHero wrote: Keep pointing out my location because that's all you can do.
Thanks for joining TL after the protests started.
It's pretty disingenuous to post pictures apple daily which has consistently been anti gov and anti mainland in it's reporting. I'm glad cheap biased reporting gets called out.
It’s just a corner of the protest and what I post here is a day summary, Every protest have their peaceful area, and you cannot let this area to represent the entire protest.
Of course you can also claim that the violent part cannot represent the entire protest, like SCMP’s video, even on a most violent day, still some peaceful protests stand there and stand for their appeals. But the thing is the damage caused by the riots is huge, is unacceptable for our normal citizens.
I disagree with condemning the protests for violence (what ever that means). Violence is the only way to get the message across, if protesters do not make life hard for society their words will be ignored. Look at an actual honorable and purposeful protests like workers, peasants, and indigenous people of Ecuador. They used peaceful demonstrations but they also attacked government buildings, held politicians, police, military personnel hostage and had sit in strikes in vital economic institutions. They were able to wring concessions out of the government in a matter of days.
I think it's perfectly fine for HK protesters to be "violent". They just are not protesting for a cause I support, nor do they appear to be very effective.
On October 15 2019 11:32 CorsairHero wrote: tonights protest: try again
Hopefully you can find a photo rather than apple daily, the most famous anti-government media in hk. A Canadian living across the world, think he knows much more hk than hk citizens, how smart you are.
And all your photos are just long range picture with a moment, you just cannot know what exact happened there. And all of your photo cannot even show a single police, your statement about police is so absurd based on your photo. A hater will hate no matter how, whatever how many videos I post here, you still gonna be a hater, so I won’t keep playing this stupid game with you, but everyone that read the thread will have their judgement.
Yeah you sound like someone who is clearly biased. You keep talking about western media as if 100 countries with different newspapers and angles function as one anti China operation. Western media is just media.
Western media serves the interest of the ruling class in the west. Which is predominately free market capitalist. Of course they will have an incentive to portray state capitalist China in a bad light.
Us vs Them. Try losing that schtick.
Here’s the great thing about News in general, you can read different papers and sources and make up your own mind.
As long as you read enough, but know people just rely on one or two medias and get all information from it. Many Chinese people do the same, but for whatever reason (yeah, sad to say it), many of us don’t fully believe in our media and would like to read the opinions the other side, sometimes the other side can help us see a thing in a different angle, and sometimes, they are just telling BS and try to fool their readers
On October 15 2019 12:00 CorsairHero wrote: Keep pointing out my location because that's all you can do.
Thanks for joining TL after the protests started.
It's pretty disingenuous to post pictures apple daily which has consistently been anti gov and anti mainland in it's reporting. I'm glad cheap biased reporting gets called out.
It’s just a corner of the protest and what I post here is a day summary, Every protest have their peaceful area, and you cannot let this area to represent the entire protest.
Of course you can also claim that the violent part cannot represent the entire protest, like SCMP’s video, even on a most violent day, still some peaceful protests stand there and stand for their appeals. But the thing is the damage caused by the riots is huge, is unacceptable for our normal citizens.
I disagree with condemning the protests for violence (what ever that means). Violence is the only way to get the message across, if protesters do not make life hard for society their words will be ignored. Look at an actual honorable and purposeful protests like workers, peasants, and indigenous people of Ecuador. They used peaceful demonstrations but they also attacked government buildings, held politicians, police, military personnel hostage and had sit in strikes in vital economic institutions. They were able to wring concessions out of the government in a matter of days.
I think it's perfectly fine for HK protesters to be "violent". They just are not protesting for a cause I support, nor do they appear to be very effective.
On October 15 2019 13:10 hunts wrote: This guy is literally posting chinese propaganda youtube videos.
I know there must be someone jump out and say what you said. Tell you a fun fact: SCMP is a hk media and is blocked by mainland China , so claiming SCMP or global news channel are China propaganda videos just make you looks like ignorant. Or you believe PRC government like to block China propaganda media into mainland?
I don’t post any CGTN (mainland Chinese media) or Chinese propaganda media like da gong bao videos here, they are biased either of course.
The amount of hypocrisy the NBA and now Blizzard is spewing out is sad. Thank God I stopped playing Blizzard games.
It's a shame so few will actually rise up and in other regions that they'll be patting themselves on the back for appeasing to China's bullshit. This is what happens when a communist nation gets too big.
On October 15 2019 11:42 zenist wrote: Regarding HK protest, it has been proven that many Chinese police have disguised themselves as protesters to conduct violence.
Regardless of violence though, you can't blame HKers for protesting because carrie lam (controlled by the communist party) made stupid move of barring masks. The movement was dying down after completely getting rid of the extradition bill.
Again, I em a hker and many of our hkers are blaming these riots. We are not like your outsiders, we live here. Like I said before, it is not the matter that their appeal is right or wrong, it is the matter that they are destroying the city, destroying other people’s life.
If you think to pursue a good purpose, we can make use of bad methods, the terrorists may not be always wrong?
Why should anyone believe you that you are just a normal HK citizen? I consider all of these low-post join-at-a-convenient moment pro-China accounts to be paid government operatives until proven otherwise. We have hordes of provably russia-paid "commenters" in all online discussion of Czech media, I see no reason to think this isn't the same story.
It's a shame TL moderators let this run rampant, I guess it's in a misguided attempt to give room to "both sides".
On October 15 2019 11:42 zenist wrote: Regarding HK protest, it has been proven that many Chinese police have disguised themselves as protesters to conduct violence.
Regardless of violence though, you can't blame HKers for protesting because carrie lam (controlled by the communist party) made stupid move of barring masks. The movement was dying down after completely getting rid of the extradition bill.
Again, I em a hker and many of our hkers are blaming these riots. We are not like your outsiders, we live here. Like I said before, it is not the matter that their appeal is right or wrong, it is the matter that they are destroying the city, destroying other people’s life.
If you think to pursue a good purpose, we can make use of bad methods, the terrorists may not be always wrong?
Why should anyone believe you that you are just a normal HK citizen? I consider all of these low-post join-at-a-convenient moment pro-China accounts to be paid government operatives until proven otherwise. We have hordes of provably russia-paid "commenters" in all online discussion of Czech media, I see no reason to think this isn't the same story.
It's a shame TL moderators let this run rampant, I guess it's in a misguided attempt to give room to "both sides".
It’s a shame that you think of others with the greatest malice.
You just believe in what you want to hear and deny all the different voice. You may just believe all the videos are fake and the old lady is a actress, and all CNN BS is the truth.
I try to communicate and tell you guys the story from a different angle, but eventually it just proves that you guys are all deaf. I will stop posting on this thread and feel deeply disappointed about you TLers, who just allow one voice here.
On October 12 2019 21:28 FreakyDroid wrote: Blizzard has a rule and they enforced it, its as simple as that. Pretty sure they would ban a player saying 'Support China'. They want to have neutral position and that's the right thing to do for a game developing company.
I really really really want someone on blizzard's stream, in a tournament setting or whatever to say "HongKong belongs to China!" I guarantee you, Blizzard will be fucked. It is a lose/lose situation, either they show the western world their true colors by not having any reaction to it (or a reaction that is literally 1% of what HKG-minded people get) or they have to fully punish someone supporting China, and we all know how China will react to that.
On October 15 2019 13:10 hunts wrote: This guy is literally posting chinese propaganda youtube videos.
I know there must be someone jump out and say what you said. Tell you a fun fact: SCMP is a hk media and is blocked by mainland China , so claiming SCMP or global news channel are China propaganda videos just make you looks like ignorant. Or you believe PRC government like to block China propaganda media into mainland?
I don’t post any CGTN (mainland Chinese media) or Chinese propaganda media like da gong bao videos here, they are biased either of course.
here is another fun fact: South China Morning Post is owned by Alibaba.
Zach Hines, who served as editor-in-chief of HK Magazine from 2008–2015, wrote of its closure:
"To be a truly independent press, you cannot be beholden to anyone except your readers. But, to my great dismay, this is becoming an increasing impossibility in Hong Kong, in both the mainstream Chinese and much-smaller English media. The SCMP itself is now owned by Alibaba, perhaps the biggest pro-China organization in the world, if you don’t count the Communist Party. The paper’s business interests are also drifting away from Hong Kong, and toward readers in the United States and the rest of the west. HK Magazine is a canary in the coal mine. [...] "
On October 15 2019 16:42 StarStruck wrote: Lebron stupid James and now this?
The amount of hypocrisy the NBA and now Blizzard is spewing out is sad. Thank God I stopped playing Blizzard games.
It's a shame so few will actually rise up and in other regions that they'll be patting themselves on the back for appeasing to China's bullshit. This is what happens when a communist nation gets too big.
At least one republican is calling out Lebron
Him and Senator Ted Cruz were in Hong Kong a couple days ago. The US will pass Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act eventually. Right now Trump is turning a blind eye to this because of the trade talks with the mainland.
We are at a point in global economy, where the worst thing for china would be, that the west would suddenly decide to "Bern it up" and taste some of that communism.
On October 15 2019 11:42 zenist wrote: Regarding HK protest, it has been proven that many Chinese police have disguised themselves as protesters to conduct violence.
Regardless of violence though, you can't blame HKers for protesting because carrie lam (controlled by the communist party) made stupid move of barring masks. The movement was dying down after completely getting rid of the extradition bill.
Again, I em a hker and many of our hkers are blaming these riots. We are not like your outsiders, we live here. Like I said before, it is not the matter that their appeal is right or wrong, it is the matter that they are destroying the city, destroying other people’s life.
If you think to pursue a good purpose, we can make use of bad methods, the terrorists may not be always wrong?
Polls are showing that 80% HKers support the protesters.
So I think you are hanging out with the minorities here.
So it’s been interesting to see some of the Chinese troll posts in this thread, but my concern is that I don’t think the claim that they’re trolls is falsifiable (which in turn means it’s ineffective). We have two options...
1) A Chinese lurker-turned-poster who can read English but not write it comfortably, deciding to create an account to weigh in on a meaningful/personal topic of discussion.
2) A government paid commenter with an ulterior motive to sway the conversation.
How do we actually tell the difference between these two? They're both low-post, not-so-great English, and pro-China/anti-protest.
My take: it doesn’t matter if they’re 1 or 2, you either debate their arguments and sources based on their own merits (like some have been doing in this thread), or you ignore them and move on if you’re not interested in the discussion. Accusing someone of being a paid troll when you have no way of telling the difference between 1 and 2 just makes you seem like an ad-hominem spewing asshole who doesn’t really give a shit that 1 could exist.
On October 15 2019 22:32 Ryzel wrote: So it’s been interesting to see some of the Chinese troll posts in this thread, but my concern is that I don’t think the claim that they’re trolls is falsifiable (which in turn means it’s ineffective). We have two options...
1) A Chinese lurker-turned-poster who can read English but not write it comfortably, deciding to create an account to weigh in on a meaningful/personal topic of discussion.
2) A government paid commenter with an ulterior motive to sway the conversation.
How do we actually tell the difference between these two? They're both low-post, not-so-great English, and pro-China/anti-protest.
My take: it doesn’t matter if they’re 1 or 2, you either debate their arguments and sources based on their own merits (like some have been doing in this thread), or you ignore them and move on if you’re not interested in the discussion. Accusing someone of being a paid troll when you have no way of telling the difference between 1 and 2 just makes you seem like an ad-hominem spewing asshole who doesn’t really give a shit that 1 could exist.
Problem with trying to debate with them is that they will never discuss with you in an honest fashion. They lie when it suits them, ignores points against them, jumps from user to user whenever there is a sliver of anything they can blow up on, and largely just end up derailing the thread. Like, there's someone in this thread who is seriously trying to convince us he's from HK, and simultaneously have the guts to pretend most of HK doesn't support this movement, while whining about how he can't find any open restaurants. How to you even begin to take that at face value?
The problem with ignoring them is that they continue to post bullshit, and end up derailing the thread anyways.
On October 15 2019 22:32 Ryzel wrote: So it’s been interesting to see some of the Chinese troll posts in this thread, but my concern is that I don’t think the claim that they’re trolls is falsifiable (which in turn means it’s ineffective). We have two options...
1) A Chinese lurker-turned-poster who can read English but not write it comfortably, deciding to create an account to weigh in on a meaningful/personal topic of discussion.
2) A government paid commenter with an ulterior motive to sway the conversation.
How do we actually tell the difference between these two? They're both low-post, not-so-great English, and pro-China/anti-protest.
My take: it doesn’t matter if they’re 1 or 2, you either debate their arguments and sources based on their own merits (like some have been doing in this thread), or you ignore them and move on if you’re not interested in the discussion. Accusing someone of being a paid troll when you have no way of telling the difference between 1 and 2 just makes you seem like an ad-hominem spewing asshole who doesn’t really give a shit that 1 could exist.
Problem with trying to debate with them is that they will never discuss with you in an honest fashion. They lie when it suits them, ignores points against them, jumps from user to user whenever there is a sliver of anything they can blow up on, and largely just end up derailing the thread. Like, there's someone in this thread who is seriously trying to convince us he's from HK, and simultaneously have the guts to pretend most of HK doesn't support this movement, while whining about how he can't find any open restaurants. How to you even begin to take that at face value?
The problem with ignoring them is that they continue to post bullshit, and end up derailing the thread anyways.
I get the frustration, but again your response should simply be to call out the lies by showing proof of your claims (like CorsairHero and others are doing), or ignoring him completely in-thread while reporting a potential issue to the mod team (which it looks like you’ve done).
As an example, can you conceive of anything this poster could do to prove to you that he’s from HK and not paid by the government? If you can’t, then some part of your logic somewhere is invalid and should be examined, because you’re incorrectly rejecting the possibility that he is 1 and not 2.
Blizzard is now paying for all their silly, nit-picky "community management" decisions. It is supposed to be a bad idea to micromanage your employees. Well Blizzard got sucked into micromanaging its customers by a gang of weirdo trolls with their green frogs and OK hand signs. What a huge over reaction by the thin skinned grievance squad at Blizzard. Now they're paying for it. Who are the adults and who are the children here? It is hard to tell.
Newton's 3rd Law of Physics is happening right before us.
On October 15 2019 22:32 Ryzel wrote: So it’s been interesting to see some of the Chinese troll posts in this thread, but my concern is that I don’t think the claim that they’re trolls is falsifiable (which in turn means it’s ineffective). We have two options...
1) A Chinese lurker-turned-poster who can read English but not write it comfortably, deciding to create an account to weigh in on a meaningful/personal topic of discussion.
2) A government paid commenter with an ulterior motive to sway the conversation.
How do we actually tell the difference between these two? They're both low-post, not-so-great English, and pro-China/anti-protest.
My take: it doesn’t matter if they’re 1 or 2, you either debate their arguments and sources based on their own merits (like some have been doing in this thread), or you ignore them and move on if you’re not interested in the discussion. Accusing someone of being a paid troll when you have no way of telling the difference between 1 and 2 just makes you seem like an ad-hominem spewing asshole who doesn’t really give a shit that 1 could exist.
Problem with trying to debate with them is that they will never discuss with you in an honest fashion. They lie when it suits them, ignores points against them, jumps from user to user whenever there is a sliver of anything they can blow up on, and largely just end up derailing the thread. Like, there's someone in this thread who is seriously trying to convince us he's from HK, and simultaneously have the guts to pretend most of HK doesn't support this movement, while whining about how he can't find any open restaurants. How to you even begin to take that at face value?
The problem with ignoring them is that they continue to post bullshit, and end up derailing the thread anyways.
I get the frustration, but again your response should simply be to call out the lies by showing proof of your claims (like CorsairHero and others are doing), or ignoring him completely in-thread while reporting a potential issue to the mod team (which it looks like you’ve done).
As an example, can you conceive of anything this poster could do to prove to you that he’s from HK and not paid by the government? If you can’t, then some part of your logic somewhere is invalid and should be examined, because you’re incorrectly rejecting the possibility that he is 1 and not 2.
I don't necessarily refuse to believe that he's from HK, just if he is from HK as he claims, then it is extremely weird that he lives in such a bubble where he believes people aren't supporting it, despite hundreds of thousands to millions of people on the streets every day. It does cast a large shadow over his claim, but even if it happens to be true, it kinda just makes his whole position worse. In any case it is clear he is not arguing in good faith.
Unless I am confusing him with someone else, he has claimed that he couldn't find a restaurant open during the protests, which is a somewhat absurd claim. This being parts of a city where there is a restaurant every 20 meters, in the area and surrounding areas where the protests are occuring, possibly more if you count the restaurants that aren't on ground level. Where do you think the protestors eat? They just go home hungry? How many protesters are there? If they are as few as he claims, he shouldn't have any difficulty walking to a restaurant.
Of course if anybody ask, I am not from Hong Kong, but I have relatives there and I've visited there many times in the past, and it strikes me as a ridiculous claim to make. It'll be like claiming you can't find anywhere to eat in the centre of a densely populated city like Tokyo or Seoul or even lesser densely populated cities just because of a few protestors. It'll be like to claim that because there are protests in London, I can't find a restaurant to eat. It's not really a thing unless the protests are spread across to a significant part of the city, in which case its a pretty damn big protest since in Hong Kong's case all the protesters must originate from Hong Kong itself. The protests can't be both small and stop you from walking for 10 minutes to find a restaurant. It's not something that makes sense to people that live in a bigcity. It just sounds like something someone who never lived in a densely populated city would write. Anyways, he could very well be from HK, but he is being deceitful to both say that protests are small and at the same time cannot find a restaurant open in the area in a reasonable amout of time.
Watching the shitstorm unfold, I have to put the popcorn down for a sec and ask again my previous question: what's Blizzard's marketing and community management budget? Probably in the tens of millions, right? Probably outsourced to some massive marketing and social media firm, right? All these analysts getting paid 6 figure salaries couldn't foresee what every neckbeard who wanks it to Dva futa porn could?
On October 15 2019 23:55 ihatevideogames wrote: Watching the shitstorm unfold, I have to put the popcorn down for a sec and ask again my previous question: what's Blizzard's marketing and community management budget? Probably in the tens of millions, right? Probably outsourced to some massive marketing and social media firm, right? All these analysts getting paid 6 figure salaries couldn't foresee what every neckbeard who wanks it to Dva futa porn could?
The PR department wasn't asked what the public impact of the ban would be because they were to busy trying to find out how to best avoid getting banned in China. The PR department didn't draft Brack's response because China did.
I wouldn't blame the PR department when they were probably never listened to in this.
On October 15 2019 22:32 Ryzel wrote: So it’s been interesting to see some of the Chinese troll posts in this thread, but my concern is that I don’t think the claim that they’re trolls is falsifiable (which in turn means it’s ineffective). We have two options...
1) A Chinese lurker-turned-poster who can read English but not write it comfortably, deciding to create an account to weigh in on a meaningful/personal topic of discussion.
2) A government paid commenter with an ulterior motive to sway the conversation.
How do we actually tell the difference between these two? They're both low-post, not-so-great English, and pro-China/anti-protest.
My take: it doesn’t matter if they’re 1 or 2, you either debate their arguments and sources based on their own merits (like some have been doing in this thread), or you ignore them and move on if you’re not interested in the discussion. Accusing someone of being a paid troll when you have no way of telling the difference between 1 and 2 just makes you seem like an ad-hominem spewing asshole who doesn’t really give a shit that 1 could exist.
Problem with trying to debate with them is that they will never discuss with you in an honest fashion. They lie when it suits them, ignores points against them, jumps from user to user whenever there is a sliver of anything they can blow up on, and largely just end up derailing the thread. Like, there's someone in this thread who is seriously trying to convince us he's from HK, and simultaneously have the guts to pretend most of HK doesn't support this movement, while whining about how he can't find any open restaurants. How to you even begin to take that at face value?
The problem with ignoring them is that they continue to post bullshit, and end up derailing the thread anyways.
I get the frustration, but again your response should simply be to call out the lies by showing proof of your claims (like CorsairHero and others are doing), or ignoring him completely in-thread while reporting a potential issue to the mod team (which it looks like you’ve done).
As an example, can you conceive of anything this poster could do to prove to you that he’s from HK and not paid by the government? If you can’t, then some part of your logic somewhere is invalid and should be examined, because you’re incorrectly rejecting the possibility that he is 1 and not 2.
I don't necessarily refuse to believe that he's from HK, just if he is from HK as he claims, then it is extremely weird that he lives in such a bubble where he believes people aren't supporting it, despite hundreds of thousands to millions of people on the streets every day. It does cast a large shadow over his claim, but even if it happens to be true, it kinda just makes his whole position worse. In any case it is clear he is not arguing in good faith.
I worry for the day when the paid trolls get a bit more sophisticated and subtle. Nobody fucking buys it when a bu ch of low post users appear and are antagonistic to such a degree from the start. Preposterous false equivalences like ‘the entire Western media is all wrong and brainwashing you, not our media though.’
On the other hand I believe we’ve seen honest interlocutors amongst our Chinese brethren in this thread too, the difference between how they post is VERY apparent and has little to do with grasp of the language.
On October 15 2019 22:32 Ryzel wrote: So it’s been interesting to see some of the Chinese troll posts in this thread, but my concern is that I don’t think the claim that they’re trolls is falsifiable (which in turn means it’s ineffective). We have two options...
1) A Chinese lurker-turned-poster who can read English but not write it comfortably, deciding to create an account to weigh in on a meaningful/personal topic of discussion.
2) A government paid commenter with an ulterior motive to sway the conversation.
How do we actually tell the difference between these two? They're both low-post, not-so-great English, and pro-China/anti-protest.
My take: it doesn’t matter if they’re 1 or 2, you either debate their arguments and sources based on their own merits (like some have been doing in this thread), or you ignore them and move on if you’re not interested in the discussion. Accusing someone of being a paid troll when you have no way of telling the difference between 1 and 2 just makes you seem like an ad-hominem spewing asshole who doesn’t really give a shit that 1 could exist.
Problem with trying to debate with them is that they will never discuss with you in an honest fashion. They lie when it suits them, ignores points against them, jumps from user to user whenever there is a sliver of anything they can blow up on, and largely just end up derailing the thread. Like, there's someone in this thread who is seriously trying to convince us he's from HK, and simultaneously have the guts to pretend most of HK doesn't support this movement, while whining about how he can't find any open restaurants. How to you even begin to take that at face value?
The problem with ignoring them is that they continue to post bullshit, and end up derailing the thread anyways.
I get the frustration, but again your response should simply be to call out the lies by showing proof of your claims (like CorsairHero and others are doing), or ignoring him completely in-thread while reporting a potential issue to the mod team (which it looks like you’ve done).
As an example, can you conceive of anything this poster could do to prove to you that he’s from HK and not paid by the government? If you can’t, then some part of your logic somewhere is invalid and should be examined, because you’re incorrectly rejecting the possibility that he is 1 and not 2.
I don't necessarily refuse to believe that he's from HK, just if he is from HK as he claims, then it is extremely weird that he lives in such a bubble where he believes people aren't supporting it, despite hundreds of thousands to millions of people on the streets every day. It does cast a large shadow over his claim, but even if it happens to be true, it kinda just makes his whole position worse. In any case it is clear he is not arguing in good faith.
I worry for the day when the paid trolls get a bit more sophisticated and subtle. Nobody fucking buys it when a bu ch of low post users appear and are antagonistic to such a degree from the start. Preposterous false equivalences like ‘the entire Western media is all wrong and brainwashing you, not our media though.’
On the other hand I believe we’ve seen honest interlocutors amongst our Chinese brethren in this thread too, the difference between how they post is VERY apparent and has little to do with grasp of the language.
I could find Trumpsters that believe equally preposterous false equivalencies, that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re getting paid by Trump. Does the preposterousness of their beliefs have any impact on whether or not they believe them? As Excludos and DMCD rightfully point out, flawed arguments or ones in bad faith can be called out for what they are, regardless of whether or not they’re paid trolls. No need to throw around extra accusations that you can’t back up conclusively, it just makes your own arguments look weaker.
On October 15 2019 22:32 Ryzel wrote: So it’s been interesting to see some of the Chinese troll posts in this thread, but my concern is that I don’t think the claim that they’re trolls is falsifiable (which in turn means it’s ineffective). We have two options...
1) A Chinese lurker-turned-poster who can read English but not write it comfortably, deciding to create an account to weigh in on a meaningful/personal topic of discussion.
2) A government paid commenter with an ulterior motive to sway the conversation.
How do we actually tell the difference between these two? They're both low-post, not-so-great English, and pro-China/anti-protest.
My take: it doesn’t matter if they’re 1 or 2, you either debate their arguments and sources based on their own merits (like some have been doing in this thread), or you ignore them and move on if you’re not interested in the discussion. Accusing someone of being a paid troll when you have no way of telling the difference between 1 and 2 just makes you seem like an ad-hominem spewing asshole who doesn’t really give a shit that 1 could exist.
Problem with trying to debate with them is that they will never discuss with you in an honest fashion. They lie when it suits them, ignores points against them, jumps from user to user whenever there is a sliver of anything they can blow up on, and largely just end up derailing the thread. Like, there's someone in this thread who is seriously trying to convince us he's from HK, and simultaneously have the guts to pretend most of HK doesn't support this movement, while whining about how he can't find any open restaurants. How to you even begin to take that at face value?
The problem with ignoring them is that they continue to post bullshit, and end up derailing the thread anyways.
I get the frustration, but again your response should simply be to call out the lies by showing proof of your claims (like CorsairHero and others are doing), or ignoring him completely in-thread while reporting a potential issue to the mod team (which it looks like you’ve done).
As an example, can you conceive of anything this poster could do to prove to you that he’s from HK and not paid by the government? If you can’t, then some part of your logic somewhere is invalid and should be examined, because you’re incorrectly rejecting the possibility that he is 1 and not 2.
I don't necessarily refuse to believe that he's from HK, just if he is from HK as he claims, then it is extremely weird that he lives in such a bubble where he believes people aren't supporting it, despite hundreds of thousands to millions of people on the streets every day. It does cast a large shadow over his claim, but even if it happens to be true, it kinda just makes his whole position worse. In any case it is clear he is not arguing in good faith.
I worry for the day when the paid trolls get a bit more sophisticated and subtle. Nobody fucking buys it when a bu ch of low post users appear and are antagonistic to such a degree from the start. Preposterous false equivalences like ‘the entire Western media is all wrong and brainwashing you, not our media though.’
On the other hand I believe we’ve seen honest interlocutors amongst our Chinese brethren in this thread too, the difference between how they post is VERY apparent and has little to do with grasp of the language.
I could find Trumpsters that believe equally preposterous false equivalencies, that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re getting paid by Trump. Does the preposterousness of their beliefs have any impact on whether or not they believe them? As Excludos and DMCD rightfully point out, flawed arguments or ones in bad faith can be called out for what they are, regardless of whether or not they’re paid trolls. No need to throw around extra accusations that you can’t back up conclusively, it just makes your own arguments look weaker.
That is fair and I agree with that, I haven’t specifically mentioned individuals for the reasons you outlined so succinctly there.
On October 15 2019 22:32 Ryzel wrote: So it’s been interesting to see some of the Chinese troll posts in this thread, but my concern is that I don’t think the claim that they’re trolls is falsifiable (which in turn means it’s ineffective). We have two options...
1) A Chinese lurker-turned-poster who can read English but not write it comfortably, deciding to create an account to weigh in on a meaningful/personal topic of discussion.
2) A government paid commenter with an ulterior motive to sway the conversation.
How do we actually tell the difference between these two? They're both low-post, not-so-great English, and pro-China/anti-protest.
My take: it doesn’t matter if they’re 1 or 2, you either debate their arguments and sources based on their own merits (like some have been doing in this thread), or you ignore them and move on if you’re not interested in the discussion. Accusing someone of being a paid troll when you have no way of telling the difference between 1 and 2 just makes you seem like an ad-hominem spewing asshole who doesn’t really give a shit that 1 could exist.
Problem with trying to debate with them is that they will never discuss with you in an honest fashion. They lie when it suits them, ignores points against them, jumps from user to user whenever there is a sliver of anything they can blow up on, and largely just end up derailing the thread. Like, there's someone in this thread who is seriously trying to convince us he's from HK, and simultaneously have the guts to pretend most of HK doesn't support this movement, while whining about how he can't find any open restaurants. How to you even begin to take that at face value?
The problem with ignoring them is that they continue to post bullshit, and end up derailing the thread anyways.
Maybe TL could add some sort of new rule banning defence of authoritarianism/anti-human-rights-rethoric. then it wouldn't matter which of the above they are. Mods would have a way of dealing with them.
Though I agree that it is impossible to have a reasonable conversation with these people who claim that human rights are just a western concept and shouldn't apply to China, and TL might have a bit of a problem when it comes to people posting misinformation and lies, I wouldn't support banning people who are defending authoritarianism and being against human rights.
On October 16 2019 03:37 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Though I agree that it is impossible to have a reasonable conversation with these people who claim that human rights are just a western concept and shouldn't apply to China, and TL might have a bit of a problem when it comes to people posting misinformation and lies, I wouldn't support banning people who are defending authoritarianism and being against human rights.
TL is already doing the same thing with homophobia, racism and sexism though. Adding facism/authoritarianism to that list doesn't strike me as controversial.
To quote the old TL commandments:
" - Racist remarks will be shot down and you will be lynched.
- Homophobic comments will get shoved way up your ass.
- Sexist remarks of any kind whatsoever will be dealt with especially harshly. Yeah, we have female members and we sure as hell would like to keep them!"
On October 16 2019 03:37 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Though I agree that it is impossible to have a reasonable conversation with these people who claim that human rights are just a western concept and shouldn't apply to China, and TL might have a bit of a problem when it comes to people posting misinformation and lies, I wouldn't support banning people who are defending authoritarianism and being against human rights.
TL is already doing the same thing with homophobia, racism and sexism though. Adding facism/authoritarianism to that list doesn't strike me as controversial.
To quote the old TL commandments:
" - Racist remarks will be shot down and you will be lynched.
- Homophobic comments will get shoved way up your ass.
- Sexist remarks of any kind whatsoever will be dealt with especially harshly. Yeah, we have female members and we sure as hell would like to keep them!"
Racism, homophobia and sexism are clear when you see them though. If people defend Trump are they defending authoritarianism or against human rights? I would say so, others would say not.
People go mad when it comes to China. I agree it looks from where I'm sitting as though China is worse, but I've never been to China so I'm relying on the word of Western media which I don't trust You can't really use that as a tl.net rule.
More generally I'm shocked at how people haven't noticed the synergy between Trump's trade offensive against China and the Western media's offensive against China, and this sudden thing with Blizzard, South Park etc. and Reddit.
Its like they are all working together, when China, although they may have become a bit more aggressive, hasn't really changed at all.
Why am I so cynical? Because I saw this two years ago and it pretty much predicted everything we are hearing about China from the media and our governments now... https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6197028/
Doesn't mean none of its true, just that I take it with a pinch of salt to some extent.
On October 16 2019 03:37 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Though I agree that it is impossible to have a reasonable conversation with these people who claim that human rights are just a western concept and shouldn't apply to China, and TL might have a bit of a problem when it comes to people posting misinformation and lies, I wouldn't support banning people who are defending authoritarianism and being against human rights.
TL is already doing the same thing with homophobia, racism and sexism though. Adding facism/authoritarianism to that list doesn't strike me as controversial.
To quote the old TL commandments:
" - Racist remarks will be shot down and you will be lynched.
- Homophobic comments will get shoved way up your ass.
- Sexist remarks of any kind whatsoever will be dealt with especially harshly. Yeah, we have female members and we sure as hell would like to keep them!"
Racism, homophobia and sexism are clear when you see them though. If people defend Trump are they defending authoritarianism or against human rights? I would say so, others would say not.
People go mad when it comes to China. I agree it looks from where I'm sitting as though China is worse, but I've never been to China so I'm relying on the word of Western media which I don't trust You can't really use that as a tl.net rule.
More generally I'm shocked at how people haven't noticed the synergy between Trump's trade offensive against China and the Western media's offensive against China, and this sudden thing with Blizzard, South Park etc. and Reddit.
Its like they are all working together, when China, although they may have become a bit more aggressive, hasn't really changed at all.
I disagree about the first sentence. Any one of those three can be really subtle and hard to catch at first, and it has always been up to the mods to decide when a line is crossed. I think some of the things in this thread are clear examples of when such a line is crossed, and I think any reasonable mod would be able to tell the difference.
On October 16 2019 03:37 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Though I agree that it is impossible to have a reasonable conversation with these people who claim that human rights are just a western concept and shouldn't apply to China, and TL might have a bit of a problem when it comes to people posting misinformation and lies, I wouldn't support banning people who are defending authoritarianism and being against human rights.
TL is already doing the same thing with homophobia, racism and sexism though. Adding facism/authoritarianism to that list doesn't strike me as controversial.
To quote the old TL commandments:
" - Racist remarks will be shot down and you will be lynched.
- Homophobic comments will get shoved way up your ass.
- Sexist remarks of any kind whatsoever will be dealt with especially harshly. Yeah, we have female members and we sure as hell would like to keep them!"
Racism, homophobia and sexism are clear when you see them though. If people defend Trump are they defending authoritarianism or against human rights? I would say so, others would say not.
People go mad when it comes to China. I agree it looks from where I'm sitting as though China is worse, but I've never been to China so I'm relying on the word of Western media which I don't trust You can't really use that as a tl.net rule.
More generally I'm shocked at how people haven't noticed the synergy between Trump's trade offensive against China and the Western media's offensive against China, and this sudden thing with Blizzard, South Park etc. and Reddit.
Its like they are all working together, when China, although they may have become a bit more aggressive, hasn't really changed at all.
I disagree about the first sentence. Any one of those three can be really subtle and hard to catch at first, and it has always been up to the mods to decide when a line is crossed. I think some of the things in this thread are clear examples of when such a line is crossed, and I think any reasonable mod would be able to tell the difference.
So defending China using Chinese government materials would be breaking the rule but defending Trump using US government materials as sources wouldn't?
How about defending Trump's border policy and the concentration camps he has set up? Plenty of people here have defended that, should they be banned? Its clearly against human rights.
On October 16 2019 03:37 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Though I agree that it is impossible to have a reasonable conversation with these people who claim that human rights are just a western concept and shouldn't apply to China, and TL might have a bit of a problem when it comes to people posting misinformation and lies, I wouldn't support banning people who are defending authoritarianism and being against human rights.
TL is already doing the same thing with homophobia, racism and sexism though. Adding facism/authoritarianism to that list doesn't strike me as controversial.
To quote the old TL commandments:
" - Racist remarks will be shot down and you will be lynched.
- Homophobic comments will get shoved way up your ass.
- Sexist remarks of any kind whatsoever will be dealt with especially harshly. Yeah, we have female members and we sure as hell would like to keep them!"
Racism, homophobia and sexism are clear when you see them though. If people defend Trump are they defending authoritarianism or against human rights? I would say so, others would say not.
People go mad when it comes to China. I agree it looks from where I'm sitting as though China is worse, but I've never been to China so I'm relying on the word of Western media which I don't trust You can't really use that as a tl.net rule.
More generally I'm shocked at how people haven't noticed the synergy between Trump's trade offensive against China and the Western media's offensive against China, and this sudden thing with Blizzard, South Park etc. and Reddit.
Its like they are all working together, when China, although they may have become a bit more aggressive, hasn't really changed at all.
I disagree about the first sentence. Any one of those three can be really subtle and hard to catch at first, and it has always been up to the mods to decide when a line is crossed. I think some of the things in this thread are clear examples of when such a line is crossed, and I think any reasonable mod would be able to tell the difference.
So defending China using Chinese government materials would be breaking the rule but defending Trump using US government materials as sources wouldn't?
Depends on what is being defended.
Defending an anti-human-rights-crackdown in HK? Pretty clear cut crossing the line. Denying the tianmen square massacre? Pretty clear cut crossing the line. Defending the genocide of the Uyghur people? Pretty clear cut crossing the line.
Saying that Trump's tax cuts are good (why anyone would do that is beyond me but whatever)? Probably not crossing a line.
EDIT: Yeah, defending the concentration camps at the southern border would be crossing a line. Don't shift the conversation away from China too much though, because then you'll do the propagandists' work for them,
On October 15 2019 13:10 hunts wrote: This guy is literally posting chinese propaganda youtube videos.
I know there must be someone jump out and say what you said. Tell you a fun fact: SCMP is a hk media and is blocked by mainland China , so claiming SCMP or global news channel are China propaganda videos just make you looks like ignorant. Or you believe PRC government like to block China propaganda media into mainland?
I don’t post any CGTN (mainland Chinese media) or Chinese propaganda media like da gong bao videos here, they are biased either of course.
here is another fun fact: South China Morning Post is owned by Alibaba.
Zach Hines, who served as editor-in-chief of HK Magazine from 2008–2015, wrote of its closure:
"To be a truly independent press, you cannot be beholden to anyone except your readers. But, to my great dismay, this is becoming an increasing impossibility in Hong Kong, in both the mainstream Chinese and much-smaller English media. The SCMP itself is now owned by Alibaba, perhaps the biggest pro-China organization in the world, if you don’t count the Communist Party. The paper’s business interests are also drifting away from Hong Kong, and toward readers in the United States and the rest of the west. HK Magazine is a canary in the coal mine. [...] "
While SCMP is indeed owned by Alibaba and Jack Ma is in fact a member of the CCP (not necessarily and always pertinent) it's not really a direct CCP mouthpiece nor straight up propaganda. Their pieces have generally been neutral , but with some variance and sometimes with a pro-CCP angle. Opinion pieces that are published by SCMP vary a lot more as you would expect, and can often include misleading information or fabrication. Their general coverage is usually good but with different writers your mileage may vary.
As long as you stick to critical thinking and evaluate the information with a pinch of salt it can definitely be an okay news source. So far, at the very least.
Their website is in fact blocked in China but in this case it actually doesn't speak for or against the notion that it's a government mouthpiece.
Again, you guys just imagine all different voices are fake, and when we oppose to the riots we oppose the freedom, what a absurd conclusion. None of hker will deny the importance to have the right to freedom, but it doesn’t mean we support such riots activities, and believe me, such activity has 0 chance to get their appeal and it’s a very naive move and be taken advantage by the US government.
And to those people who think I am making stories (like restaurants thing) I do hope you guys come to hk and stay here during a weekend, I hope you can easily find a good dining please during the dinner time. All metros and buses are shut down and the employees can’t get to the work, so most of the shopping malls and restaurants are closed very early (some are all day shut down). You can easily do some research and know this fact. But you just use your own logic and declare I’m a paid troll that spamming fake news. I feel sorry to you.
In fact, all you guys can simply go to YouTube and watch some latest videos about hk protest (after September) and you will know the situation. But you guys just don’t do it, and even after you do the research and find out a result you don’t like, I believe you still gonna claim the evil Chinese government has controlled the YouTube.
Besides, some guy claims that I don’t want a real conversation, but in fact it is me who post the protest storyline (of course you don’t believe), it’s me who talks about the current situation (of course you think my words are lies and the videos are lies) and you just keep repeating the same thing that every weekend tens of thousands people walking to the streets and fight (which is the reason of riots) and because this 10-50k rioters you think all hk support them. This is your logic and you deny all other voices. Just be a little bit unbiased to ask yourself, Who is the one that don’t want a real conversation?
The saddest thing about you guys is you just automatically think different voices are lies, and since you guys think I am lying all the time, you begin to put nonstop personal abuse on me. So sad that you guys don’t allow others talk (because we are convicted to be liars and paid trolls) and you think you are fighting for freedom of speech. Like the old lady said in the video (yeah the fake, absurd China propaganda video), “I don’t know you are evil or angel, the world is confusing, sometimes evils are angels, sometimes angels are evils”
I didn’t want to post anything on this thread but all you personal abuses on me lead me to post this last message. You can disagree with me, but just accusing me as a liar and paid troll makes me things this whole communication is meaningless. Now it’s time to fill your day with happiness by insulting me over and over.
One last words, thanks to those guys who still believe I come here to communicate with my sincerity. Thank you
I havent even watched sc2 since this unfolded I just can't believe they shafted Hong Kong so bad, they need support not to be ignored. Super sad story I'm disappointed with blizzard as a fan of all their products, probably wont buy again. Rip Hong kong, rip freedom
I'm very saddened by the fact that blizzard bending over and taking it in the rear from china hasn't made their stock drop any more. If I was still invested in them I would've sold out, but unfortunately I got rid of their stock about a year ago.
On October 16 2019 07:54 hunts wrote: I'm very saddened by the fact that blizzard bending over and taking it in the rear from china hasn't made their stock drop any more. If I was still invested in them I would've sold out, but unfortunately I got rid of their stock about a year ago.
On October 16 2019 07:54 hunts wrote: I'm very saddened by the fact that blizzard bending over and taking it in the rear from china hasn't made their stock drop any more. If I was still invested in them I would've sold out, but unfortunately I got rid of their stock about a year ago.
Stock doesn't care about morality.
I know, but I figured the large amount of people I saw publicly speaking out against blizzard saying they are canceling their wow subs and uninstalling etc... led me to believe that it would negatively reflect on their stock price, but it seems to still be hovering at the same value, which is about $20 below where they were roughly a year ago.
On October 16 2019 07:54 hunts wrote: I'm very saddened by the fact that blizzard bending over and taking it in the rear from china hasn't made their stock drop any more. If I was still invested in them I would've sold out, but unfortunately I got rid of their stock about a year ago.
Stock doesn't care about morality.
I know, but I figured the large amount of people I saw publicly speaking out against blizzard saying they are canceling their wow subs and uninstalling etc... led me to believe that it would negatively reflect on their stock price, but it seems to still be hovering at the same value, which is about $20 below where they were roughly a year ago.
To really put the hurt on Activision execs and stock prices, help the employees there unionize and assert their power over the corporation. Most Blizzard employees don't like censorship and probably don't like many of the business decisions Activision has been making these past few years. They are our allies and we should help them make their voices head. There are numerous ways punish, and more importantly change, a corporation that is not acting in our interest.
On October 16 2019 07:54 hunts wrote: I'm very saddened by the fact that blizzard bending over and taking it in the rear from china hasn't made their stock drop any more. If I was still invested in them I would've sold out, but unfortunately I got rid of their stock about a year ago.
Stock doesn't care about morality.
I know, but I figured the large amount of people I saw publicly speaking out against blizzard saying they are canceling their wow subs and uninstalling etc... led me to believe that it would negatively reflect on their stock price, but it seems to still be hovering at the same value, which is about $20 below where they were roughly a year ago.
On the other hand Blizzard showed to protect their growth potential into the Chinese mobile market. Investors are addicted to growth.
On October 16 2019 17:50 Manit0u wrote: Blizzard sinking to new lows...
Others are doing the same - keep politics away, it's just not a milenium ban. I got banned taking politics on EA forums years ago, it's in the rules to not bring the politics so I was to be blamed. (3 day ban IIRC)
All these analysts getting paid 6 figure salaries couldn't foresee what every neckbeard who wanks it to Dva futa porn could?
Love you man !
No that was actually quite hard to foresee because this is a new development. Until very recently supporting popular uprisings in the name of democracy was seen as completely unproblematic - just think about the Arab spring or the protests in Syria. That CCP went bat shit insane over a simple tweet like "stand by hong kong" by some NBA general manager and this type of heavy repression is new territory. It clearly shows that the party is investigating new ways to push censorship outside of the country itself.
If you call it "go with the flow", it's not new at all. Mainland China is supposed to hate HongKong until complete unification is achieved.
I understood the in a sense of :
How can you not understand, that slamming people speaking out for "FREEEDOM" in America, while "defending Chinas honor !" tends to not be a very good move for US-Based corporations ? Especially when you getting paid hundreds of thousands of dollars BECAUSE you are such an globalist expert on different markets world wide.
Trump got voted because people are actually feel powerless when they have no choice but to buy chinese products, because capitalism has chosen cheap labor options in communist countries.
So by supporting chinese propaganda, you automatically annoy the right-wing cheeto-Jesus supporters AND the left-wing freedom of speech people.
just to add to this... this person was heading up the design and financing of a fairly big budget game. Part of his financing was coming from China. He decided to speak his honest mind and all his China-based funding instantly ended. He is trying to make up for the loss by crowdfunding and various other fund raising efforts.
So this man does not just talk the talk. He walks the walk.
He is not merely running around like whiney child saying " i won't spend money nah nah nah". His stance of openness and honesty will force him to go through all kinds of additional fund raising efforts that can require dozens if not hundreds of hours. The business side of software development occupies as much time as the making of the software.
Why is it economically beneficial for the organizers?
Because when there's no politics, there's no reason to exclude certain groups of people from the sport.
I don't want politics to be taboo, and political video games should be a thing, but in competitive situations all of that should be left elsewhere. Otherwise sports will just become another version of the Eurovision song contest.
There are a million possible reasons why keeping politics out might be economically benefical. Not just one.
Also just no to your last sentence. It does not make sense. Like... not at all. Could you explain what you were trying to say?
Kingdom Come Deliverance controversy shows it is not correct. The game director has righ-wing political opinion, true, but it was not reflected in the game. However, he was also accused of racism because he refused to make black characters in his game. Nevermind that local academic historians he consulted and discouraged him of that were much more likely more competent on topic than the "blog historians" who started debacle. The whole production was tainted from that moment with controversy and in the end both sides ended pissed.
Actually... history of mankind shows that my statement is of course correct. Common sense does too.
Also, I liked your little story. Even though it is 100% off topic. But thanks for sharing.
Kingdom Come Deliverance controversy shows it is not correct. The game director has righ-wing political opinion, true, but it was not reflected in the game. However, he was also accused of racism because he refused to make black characters in his game. Nevermind that local academic historians he consulted and discouraged him of that were much more likely more competent on topic than the "blog historians" who started debacle. The whole production was tainted from that moment with controversy and in the end both sides ended pissed.
Actually... history of mankind shows that my statement is of course correct. Common sense does too.
Also, I liked your little story. Even though it is 100% off topic. But thanks for sharing.
Why did you removed the quote? There's no easy way to find the origin post(or I'm blind again), c'mon
This has the massive stench of "Well, now that we've told everyone we'd ban them equally, I guess we kinda just have to double down on that pretense, huh?"
Guess I'll sit down and wait for the 8.5 years late MarineKing ban
It's kind of funny to look back and see the poll with 60% of people saying to keep political messages out of esports, and only 16% supporting. It's like the reverse of this thread only because nobody outside Korea/Japan cares about those islands.
From a prophetic post in that thread:
But imagine if this were to change. Imagine the next issue brought up is "America stop invading other countries!" or "China get out of Tibet!" or other politically divisive issues.
I really don't understand their message there though. They keep saying "Every voice matters" and it's in their commandments or whatever, yet they're banning people for doing it in tournaments AND in the forums. Where exactly is it ok to do so on Blizzard's turf, if "every voice matters" to them?
On October 17 2019 14:53 Boltwork wrote: MKP held up a sign after a game supporting the Korean claim to Dokdo island (aka Takeshima, aka the Liancourt Rocks).
It's kind of funny to look back and see the poll with 60% of people saying to keep political messages out of esports, and only 16% supporting. It's like the reverse of this thread only because nobody outside Korea/Japan cares about those islands.
But imagine if this were to change. Imagine the next issue brought up is "America stop invading other countries!" or "China get out of Tibet!" or other politically divisive issues.
That's all the proof I need, thanks. When people say they want politics in sport all they mean is they want this issue to be allowed because they have strong opinions on it, and if its a more general question of politics in sport they say no thanks.
Personally I feel like SHORT political statements or signs should be ok as long as they are not racist or insulting ("Free Hong Kong" is ok, "Fuck China" isn't). Longwinded answers during interviews or big time signaling is too much tho. Its about the game/sport, not the politics.
Didn't the HS- team even stated, that them not being punished is bigottery by Blizzard ?
and now they swing around and say: "Ooops we really did not hate on freedom enough, so here is your ban, thanks for complaining and we hope your customer experience will be better in the future !"
It amazes me how little understanding of the gaming scene, politics and the dynamic of internet shitstorm there seems to be with multi-million earning heads of gaming companies. EA basicly has F**** up the holy grail of license Star Wars + Videogames. They made two similar games which are mere mods to their battelfield franchise, and leave them out to die after the MTX desaster. Blizzard has made bad decisions in the past. Like ignoring and fighting the "We want vanilla WOW" people for 15 years straight making them unsubscribe from wow and play on their own servers - only to - Surprised Pikcachu- make boatloads of cash when finally making their own classic-server again.
Now Blizzard handles the Hong Kong situation..like it goes away if you act stupid enough. That's cheeto-Jesus tactics.
This is complete and utter disgust for the customer.
I really don't understand their message there though. They keep saying "Every voice matters" and it's in their commandments or whatever, yet they're banning people for doing it in tournaments AND in the forums. Where exactly is it ok to do so on Blizzard's turf, if "every voice matters" to them?
It's in the small text: "Every voice matters (unless it hurts our bottom line)"
South Korea's football team has described their recent match with North Korea as "like a war", after arriving back in the South.
The qualifier for the 2022 World Cup took place in the North's capital Pyongyang on Tuesday in a stadium with no fans from either country.
The match - which finished 0-0 - was only the second time South Korea's men's team had played in Pyongyang.
The two countries are technically still at war and relations are at a low ebb.
"It [the match] was like war," said the Korea Football Association vice-president Choi Young-il as the team arrived back at Incheon airport on Thursday.
"North Koreans wouldn't even make eye contact when I talked to them, not to mention respond," he added. The captain of the South Korean squad - Tottenham's Son Heung-min - was also surprised by the North's rough tactics.
"The match was very aggressive to a degree that I think it's a huge achievement just to return safely without being injured," he said.
"North Korean players were sensitive and aggressive...there was a lot of severe swearing [from them]."
South Korea's football team has described their recent match with North Korea as "like a war", after arriving back in the South.
The qualifier for the 2022 World Cup took place in the North's capital Pyongyang on Tuesday in a stadium with no fans from either country.
The match - which finished 0-0 - was only the second time South Korea's men's team had played in Pyongyang.
The two countries are technically still at war and relations are at a low ebb.
"It [the match] was like war," said the Korea Football Association vice-president Choi Young-il as the team arrived back at Incheon airport on Thursday.
"North Koreans wouldn't even make eye contact when I talked to them, not to mention respond," he added. The captain of the South Korean squad - Tottenham's Son Heung-min - was also surprised by the North's rough tactics.
"The match was very aggressive to a degree that I think it's a huge achievement just to return safely without being injured," he said.
"North Korean players were sensitive and aggressive...there was a lot of severe swearing [from them]."
Personally I'd rather esports was about esports.
It it possible we could start handing out warnings for dishonest arguments please? If you can't argue without using straw men, slippery slope and avoiding the subject, then I suggest you don't. Absolutely no one has claimed any such thing, and the example you brought up has no relation to the topic at hand. No one stood in a post win interview holding up a "Free South Korea" flag. It's a contact sport between two nations who are literally at war. Of course it's going to be tense.
On October 19 2019 06:43 JimmyJRaynor wrote: 2 US Senators and 3 US COngress-persons wrote a joing letter to Robert Kotick the CEO of ATVI.. [URL to the letter]
Was about to post this as well, also Blizzard has cancelled several events. Also multiple protest organizations, some even crowdfunded on patreon (successfully) are going to attend Blizzcon. I really hope they don't cancel Blizzcon as well.
On October 19 2019 06:43 JimmyJRaynor wrote: 2 US Senators and 3 US COngress-persons wrote a joing letter to Robert Kotick the CEO of ATVI.. [URL to the letter]
Was about to post this as well, also Blizzard has cancelled several events. Also multiple protest organizations, some even crowdfunded on patreon (successfully) are going to attend Blizzcon. I really hope they don't cancel Blizzcon as well.
I would much rather blizzard listen to this and reverse course, but I don't see them doing that. I think I'd be ok with them cancelling blizzcon because of this, and having to deal with the shit storm that would ensue because of that.
They should've employed the Michael Jordan policy that he began using 30 years ago. Namely, an across the board silence on all political matters.
Michael Jordan's dead silence on political matters these past 30 years is making him look like the baddest ass in the room. Hindsight is 20/20 I guess.
I want to see Blizzcon full of Winnie the Pooh costumes and cosplay in the vein of Hong Kong Mei. Make them send their fans away, take their signs, all while being recorded. This stench should linger within them; they should be saturated in it. EA is maybe the most hated name in eSports, and Blizzard is campaigning for the penultimate spot.
On October 19 2019 07:36 Danglars wrote: I want to see Blizzcon full of Winnie the Pooh costumes and cosplay in the vein of Hong Kong Mei. Make them send their fans away, take their signs, all while being recorded. This stench should linger within them; they should be saturated in it. EA is maybe the most hated name in eSports, and Blizzard is campaigning for the penultimate spot.
Don't forget that the NBA 3 point hand sign is a universal symbol of hate. Some weirdo trolls came up with some bizarro backstory about why its a hate symbol and then Blizzard's genius esports team got baited into banning it.
Apparently, these same weirdo trolls have come up with a bizarre theory about how the "Peace" sign is a 'dog whistle' for anti LGBTers. I think their ultimate goal is to get every # of digits being held up as being banworthy. They got 3 fingers held up as banworthy and they're working on "2". Maybe "4" is the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse. That's next after they get "Peace" banned.
I'll be curious to see what their back story is for "1" and "5" being hate symbols.
We'll all have to walk around with our hands in our pockets I guess.
On October 19 2019 07:36 Danglars wrote: I want to see Blizzcon full of Winnie the Pooh costumes and cosplay in the vein of Hong Kong Mei. Make them send their fans away, take their signs, all while being recorded. This stench should linger within them; they should be saturated in it. EA is maybe the most hated name in eSports, and Blizzard is campaigning for the penultimate spot.
Don't forget that the NBA 3 point hand sign is a universal symbol of hate. Some weirdo trolls came up with some bizarro backstory about why its a hate symbol and then Blizzard's genius esports team got baited into banning it.
Apparently, these same weirdo trolls have come up with a bizarre theory about how the "Peace" sign is a 'dog whistle' for anti LGBTers. I think their ultimate goal is to get every # of digits being held up as being banworthy. They got 3 fingers held up as banworthy and they're working on "2". Maybe "4" is the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse. That's next after they get "Peace" banned.
I'll be curious to see what their back story is for "1" and "5" being hate symbols.
We'll all have to walk around with our hands in our pockets I guess.
You're reminding me of that news headache recently. The 4chan trolls making the OK sign into White Power sign, very successfully fooling a buncha media members ... who later dug in with some version of “started as a joke, now seriously adopted by xyz groups.” I’m still aghast. Just don’t come for my college’s hand signal used in our sporting events!
I do want to generally say that approaching these topics with humor and some level of mischief is the right way to stay sane and focused in events without short resolutions.
NBA doing to the NBC what I hope Blizzard fans do to Blizzard:
On October 19 2019 07:36 Danglars wrote: I want to see Blizzcon full of Winnie the Pooh costumes and cosplay in the vein of Hong Kong Mei. Make them send their fans away, take their signs, all while being recorded. This stench should linger within them; they should be saturated in it. EA is maybe the most hated name in eSports, and Blizzard is campaigning for the penultimate spot.
Don't forget that the NBA 3 point hand sign is a universal symbol of hate. Some weirdo trolls came up with some bizarro backstory about why its a hate symbol and then Blizzard's genius esports team got baited into banning it.
Apparently, these same weirdo trolls have come up with a bizarre theory about how the "Peace" sign is a 'dog whistle' for anti LGBTers. I think their ultimate goal is to get every # of digits being held up as being banworthy. They got 3 fingers held up as banworthy and they're working on "2". Maybe "4" is the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse. That's next after they get "Peace" banned.
I'll be curious to see what their back story is for "1" and "5" being hate symbols.
We'll all have to walk around with our hands in our pockets I guess.
You're reminding me of that news headache recently. The 4chan trolls making the OK sign into White Power sign, very successfully fooling a buncha media members ... who later dug in with some version of “started as a joke, now seriously adopted by xyz groups.” I’m still aghast. Just don’t come for my college’s hand signal used in our sporting events!
I do want to generally say that approaching these topics with humor and some level of mischief is the right way to stay sane and focused in events without short resolutions.
That's a really cool action. But didn't he kinda give the NBA money by buying all those tickets? I mean, a demonstration outside the game might have had the same effect without paying them.
On October 19 2019 07:36 Danglars wrote: I want to see Blizzcon full of Winnie the Pooh costumes and cosplay in the vein of Hong Kong Mei. Make them send their fans away, take their signs, all while being recorded. This stench should linger within them; they should be saturated in it. EA is maybe the most hated name in eSports, and Blizzard is campaigning for the penultimate spot.
Don't forget that the NBA 3 point hand sign is a universal symbol of hate. Some weirdo trolls came up with some bizarro backstory about why its a hate symbol and then Blizzard's genius esports team got baited into banning it.
Apparently, these same weirdo trolls have come up with a bizarre theory about how the "Peace" sign is a 'dog whistle' for anti LGBTers. I think their ultimate goal is to get every # of digits being held up as being banworthy. They got 3 fingers held up as banworthy and they're working on "2". Maybe "4" is the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse. That's next after they get "Peace" banned.
I'll be curious to see what their back story is for "1" and "5" being hate symbols.
We'll all have to walk around with our hands in our pockets I guess.
You're reminding me of that news headache recently. The 4chan trolls making the OK sign into White Power sign, very successfully fooling a buncha media members ... who later dug in with some version of “started as a joke, now seriously adopted by xyz groups.” I’m still aghast. Just don’t come for my college’s hand signal used in our sporting events!
I do want to generally say that approaching these topics with humor and some level of mischief is the right way to stay sane and focused in events without short resolutions.
That's a really cool action. But didn't he kinda give the NBA money by buying all those tickets? I mean, a demonstration outside the game might have had the same effect without paying them.
On October 19 2019 07:34 JimmyJRaynor wrote: They should've employed the Michael Jordan policy that he began using 30 years ago. Namely, an across the board silence on all political matters.
Michael Jordan's dead silence on political matters these past 30 years is making him look like the baddest ass in the room. Hindsight is 20/20 I guess.
Strong implication that if they don't actively side with the chinese government, their products will be banned in china. A lot of other companies are involved as well; why else would they shoot themselves in the foot so many times?
Some students in the StarCraft portion of TeSPA (same Blizzard collegiate esports program where the American University controversy occurred) also made a political statement.
Some students in the StarCraft portion of TeSPA (same Blizzard collegiate esports program where the American University controversy occurred) also made a political statement.
Clearly the commentators did not even attempt to condemn this message thus they failed in defending the dignity and honor of China. Ban them, ban them all.
On October 15 2019 11:42 zenist wrote: Regarding HK protest, it has been proven that many Chinese police have disguised themselves as protesters to conduct violence.
Regardless of violence though, you can't blame HKers for protesting because carrie lam (controlled by the communist party) made stupid move of barring masks. The movement was dying down after completely getting rid of the extradition bill.
This is a false statement, China doesn't gain anything by prolonging violence in Hong Kong and benefits only if Hong Kong moves on from the violence.
First of all riots were not dying down, they continued even worse if you follow the news there regularly. Second the mask ban is necessary to catch rioters and vandalists and arsonists and to discourage the continuation of this acts... A normal law in many asian countries like Singapore as well as western countries like the US.
I don't blame peaceful protesters, but I hope everyone who committed violence there would be dealt with the full extent of the law. I just can't support violence and vandalism:
On October 21 2019 00:45 raga4ka wrote: First of all riots were not dying down, they continued even worse if you follow the news there regularly. Second the mask ban is necessary to catch rioters and vandalists and arsonists and to discourage the continuation of this acts... A normal law in many asian countries like Singapore as well as western countries like the US.
The internet lounges and PC Bangs in the worst areas of Toronto all forbid wearing anything that covers one's face including any kind of hood. Very generally speaking, I support a face mask ban.
On October 15 2019 11:42 zenist wrote: Regarding HK protest, it has been proven that many Chinese police have disguised themselves as protesters to conduct violence.
Regardless of violence though, you can't blame HKers for protesting because carrie lam (controlled by the communist party) made stupid move of barring masks. The movement was dying down after completely getting rid of the extradition bill.
This is a false statement, China doesn't gain anything by prolonging violence in Hong Kong and benefits only if Hong Kong moves on from the violence.
First of all riots were not dying down, they continued even worse if you follow the news there regularly. Second the mask ban is necessary to catch rioters and vandalists and arsonists and to discourage the continuation of this acts... A normal law in many asian countries like Singapore as well as western countries like the US.
I don't blame peaceful protesters, but I hope everyone who committed violence there would be dealt with the full extent of the law. I just can't support violence and vandalism:
On October 15 2019 11:42 zenist wrote: Regarding HK protest, it has been proven that many Chinese police have disguised themselves as protesters to conduct violence.
Regardless of violence though, you can't blame HKers for protesting because carrie lam (controlled by the communist party) made stupid move of barring masks. The movement was dying down after completely getting rid of the extradition bill.
This is a false statement, China doesn't gain anything by prolonging violence in Hong Kong and benefits only if Hong Kong moves on from the violence.
First of all riots were not dying down, they continued even worse if you follow the news there regularly. Second the mask ban is necessary to catch rioters and vandalists and arsonists and to discourage the continuation of this acts... A normal law in many asian countries like Singapore as well as western countries like the US.
I don't blame peaceful protesters, but I hope everyone who committed violence there would be dealt with the full extent of the law. I just can't support violence and vandalism:
the problem is not what the protestors is doing, it is whom they are against same behavior in Chili or Spain or other country are not allowed, but if it is against EVIL CHINA, IT is fight for freedom. The rule is always clear, dont you know that?XD
On October 21 2019 00:45 raga4ka wrote: First of all riots were not dying down, they continued even worse if you follow the news there regularly. Second the mask ban is necessary to catch rioters and vandalists and arsonists and to discourage the continuation of this acts... A normal law in many asian countries like Singapore as well as western countries like the US.
The internet lounges and PC Bangs in the worst areas of Toronto all forbid wearing anything that covers one's face including any kind of hood. Very generally speaking, I support a face mask ban.
does Toronto have face recognition cameras installed everywhere which are actively used and is Toronto known to make people disappear and then reappear again dead and naked in the river? If I were in such a place, I'd very much prefer to wear a mask, thank you.
On October 15 2019 11:42 zenist wrote: Regarding HK protest, it has been proven that many Chinese police have disguised themselves as protesters to conduct violence.
Regardless of violence though, you can't blame HKers for protesting because carrie lam (controlled by the communist party) made stupid move of barring masks. The movement was dying down after completely getting rid of the extradition bill.
This is a false statement, China doesn't gain anything by prolonging violence in Hong Kong and benefits only if Hong Kong moves on from the violence.
First of all riots were not dying down, they continued even worse if you follow the news there regularly. Second the mask ban is necessary to catch rioters and vandalists and arsonists and to discourage the continuation of this acts... A normal law in many asian countries like Singapore as well as western countries like the US.
I don't blame peaceful protesters, but I hope everyone who committed violence there would be dealt with the full extent of the law. I just can't support violence and vandalism:
how the hell is it a "false statement"? You saying it's false does not make it false. There's so much evidence out there to prove you wrong that it's even absurd to state it at all.
And yes, China does gain anything by prolonging violence in HK. The worse the situation gets, the more reason they are to interefere in a more serious, military capacity. If China is successful in making the world see this as "HK people are the ones who are violent, and they are a danger to themselves, we're moving in to ensure HK's safety" then it's precisely the best possible outcome for China. There will never be any demonstrations or riots again. HK will be done.
On October 15 2019 11:42 zenist wrote: Regarding HK protest, it has been proven that many Chinese police have disguised themselves as protesters to conduct violence.
Regardless of violence though, you can't blame HKers for protesting because carrie lam (controlled by the communist party) made stupid move of barring masks. The movement was dying down after completely getting rid of the extradition bill.
This is a false statement, China doesn't gain anything by prolonging violence in Hong Kong and benefits only if Hong Kong moves on from the violence.
First of all riots were not dying down, they continued even worse if you follow the news there regularly. Second the mask ban is necessary to catch rioters and vandalists and arsonists and to discourage the continuation of this acts... A normal law in many asian countries like Singapore as well as western countries like the US.
I don't blame peaceful protesters, but I hope everyone who committed violence there would be dealt with the full extent of the law. I just can't support violence and vandalism:
how the hell is it a "false statement"? There's tons of evidence out there. Yes China does gain anything by prolonging violence in HK. The worse the situation gets, the more reason they are to interefere in a more serious, military capacity. If China is successful in making the world see this as "HK people are the ones who are violent, and they are a danger to themselves, we're moving in to ensure HK's safety" then it's precisely the best possible outcome for China. There will never be any demonstrations or riots again. HK will be done.
Stop exaggerating, you are taking an overly conspiratorial view of China's strategy. This will not be the last riot and there will be plenty more riots in the future, even after 2047 when HK autonomy ends. China is a country where over 100k protest (government acknowledge number btw, real number is higher) occur each year over government corruption or social justice issues.
On October 15 2019 11:42 zenist wrote: Regarding HK protest, it has been proven that many Chinese police have disguised themselves as protesters to conduct violence.
Regardless of violence though, you can't blame HKers for protesting because carrie lam (controlled by the communist party) made stupid move of barring masks. The movement was dying down after completely getting rid of the extradition bill.
This is a false statement, China doesn't gain anything by prolonging violence in Hong Kong and benefits only if Hong Kong moves on from the violence.
First of all riots were not dying down, they continued even worse if you follow the news there regularly. Second the mask ban is necessary to catch rioters and vandalists and arsonists and to discourage the continuation of this acts... A normal law in many asian countries like Singapore as well as western countries like the US.
I don't blame peaceful protesters, but I hope everyone who committed violence there would be dealt with the full extent of the law. I just can't support violence and vandalism:
how the hell is it a "false statement"? There's tons of evidence out there. Yes China does gain anything by prolonging violence in HK. The worse the situation gets, the more reason they are to interefere in a more serious, military capacity. If China is successful in making the world see this as "HK people are the ones who are violent, and they are a danger to themselves, we're moving in to ensure HK's safety" then it's precisely the best possible outcome for China. There will never be any demonstrations or riots again. HK will be done.
Stop exaggerating, you are taking an overly conspiratorial view of China's strategy. This will not be the last riot and there will be plenty more riots in the future, even after 2047 when HK autonomy ends. China is a country where over 100k protest (government acknowledge number btw, real number is higher) occur each year over government corruption or social justice issues.
No, you're taking an overly naive view of the situation, that is not how the world works, especially when arrogant superpowers are involved. Same way the demonstrations and riots in Ukraine were infused with Russians in disguise making them much violent then they would've ever been otherwise, and they capitalized on it by starting an invasion, and surgically cutting off a part of Ukraine. Superpowers always have ulterior motives, and they always benefit from such territories' riots being as bloody as possible, because otherwise they don't have a reason to intervene. Peaceful protests only benefit the protestors. What exactly does HK have to gain from doing violent protests and bloodshed in their own land? It makes zero sense.
in HK's case- If a bloodbath occurs, then no, there won't be anymore riots. It'll either be over, or war, HK loses in either scenario.
On October 15 2019 11:42 zenist wrote: Regarding HK protest, it has been proven that many Chinese police have disguised themselves as protesters to conduct violence.
Regardless of violence though, you can't blame HKers for protesting because carrie lam (controlled by the communist party) made stupid move of barring masks. The movement was dying down after completely getting rid of the extradition bill.
This is a false statement, China doesn't gain anything by prolonging violence in Hong Kong and benefits only if Hong Kong moves on from the violence.
First of all riots were not dying down, they continued even worse if you follow the news there regularly. Second the mask ban is necessary to catch rioters and vandalists and arsonists and to discourage the continuation of this acts... A normal law in many asian countries like Singapore as well as western countries like the US.
I don't blame peaceful protesters, but I hope everyone who committed violence there would be dealt with the full extent of the law. I just can't support violence and vandalism:
how the hell is it a "false statement"? There's tons of evidence out there. Yes China does gain anything by prolonging violence in HK. The worse the situation gets, the more reason they are to interefere in a more serious, military capacity. If China is successful in making the world see this as "HK people are the ones who are violent, and they are a danger to themselves, we're moving in to ensure HK's safety" then it's precisely the best possible outcome for China. There will never be any demonstrations or riots again. HK will be done.
Stop exaggerating, you are taking an overly conspiratorial view of China's strategy. This will not be the last riot and there will be plenty more riots in the future, even after 2047 when HK autonomy ends. China is a country where over 100k protest (government acknowledge number btw, real number is higher) occur each year over government corruption or social justice issues.
No, you're taking an overly naive view of the situation, that is not how the world works, especially when arrogant superpowers are involved. Same way the demonstrations and riots in Ukraine were infused with Russians in disguise making them much violent then they would've ever been otherwise, and they capitalized on it by starting an invasion, and surgically cutting off a part of Ukraine. Superpowers always have ulterior motives, and they always benefit from such territories' riots being as bloody as possible, because otherwise they don't have a reason to intervene. Peaceful protests only benefit the protestors. What exactly does HK have to gain from doing violent protests and bloodshed in their own land? It makes zero sense.
in HK's case- If a bloodbath occurs, then no, there won't be anymore riots. It'll either be over, or war, HK loses in either scenario.
So you are saying that Russia helped a US backed Ukraine coup to topple a russian friendly government who was giving access to strategical ports so they can invade Ukraine and take does ports anyway risking world condemnation and sanction wrecking their economy... While just enjoying both the ports and economical growth?
The two events have nothing in common and, if anything Hong Kong rioters don't have any power to take down the government, at best what they can do is acts of vandalism and arsonism which again doesn't benefit China. China benefits if riots move on and everything is forgotten. Why would China want to take something that it's already theirs and risk world condemnation and stripping Hong Kong of it's financial status?
Are you saying that all the acts of vandalism and arsonism are mediated by the Chinese government, trashing Chinese mainland business in Hong Kong? At this point the US senate are the ones supporting the riots with the eventual sanctions to Hong Kong business which doesn't benefit anyone to say the least.
On October 15 2019 11:42 zenist wrote: Regarding HK protest, it has been proven that many Chinese police have disguised themselves as protesters to conduct violence.
Regardless of violence though, you can't blame HKers for protesting because carrie lam (controlled by the communist party) made stupid move of barring masks. The movement was dying down after completely getting rid of the extradition bill.
This is a false statement, China doesn't gain anything by prolonging violence in Hong Kong and benefits only if Hong Kong moves on from the violence.
First of all riots were not dying down, they continued even worse if you follow the news there regularly. Second the mask ban is necessary to catch rioters and vandalists and arsonists and to discourage the continuation of this acts... A normal law in many asian countries like Singapore as well as western countries like the US.
I don't blame peaceful protesters, but I hope everyone who committed violence there would be dealt with the full extent of the law. I just can't support violence and vandalism:
how the hell is it a "false statement"? There's tons of evidence out there. Yes China does gain anything by prolonging violence in HK. The worse the situation gets, the more reason they are to interefere in a more serious, military capacity. If China is successful in making the world see this as "HK people are the ones who are violent, and they are a danger to themselves, we're moving in to ensure HK's safety" then it's precisely the best possible outcome for China. There will never be any demonstrations or riots again. HK will be done.
Stop exaggerating, you are taking an overly conspiratorial view of China's strategy. This will not be the last riot and there will be plenty more riots in the future, even after 2047 when HK autonomy ends. China is a country where over 100k protest (government acknowledge number btw, real number is higher) occur each year over government corruption or social justice issues.
The only reason HK can protest is exactly because they're not part of China. These aren't conspiracy theories, these things have and will happen. Just because you choose to stick your head in the dirt doesn't make it less true.
China is looking for excuses to send in the military, and to that end it benefits them greatly that the protests turn violent. You have to be unrealistically naive to believe otherwise from a government who runs concentration camps, harvest organs, kills politicians and regular people who voices their opinions against the current government, who runs a dystopian nation wide facial recognition system in pure 1984 fashion, and who runs their own people over with tanks and dumptrucks when they protest.
100k protests a year? Based on whose numbers? Even Chinese mainlanders who supports their government haven't attempted to pretend they can speak up against their own government.
On October 15 2019 11:42 zenist wrote: Regarding HK protest, it has been proven that many Chinese police have disguised themselves as protesters to conduct violence.
Regardless of violence though, you can't blame HKers for protesting because carrie lam (controlled by the communist party) made stupid move of barring masks. The movement was dying down after completely getting rid of the extradition bill.
This is a false statement, China doesn't gain anything by prolonging violence in Hong Kong and benefits only if Hong Kong moves on from the violence.
First of all riots were not dying down, they continued even worse if you follow the news there regularly. Second the mask ban is necessary to catch rioters and vandalists and arsonists and to discourage the continuation of this acts... A normal law in many asian countries like Singapore as well as western countries like the US.
I don't blame peaceful protesters, but I hope everyone who committed violence there would be dealt with the full extent of the law. I just can't support violence and vandalism:
how the hell is it a "false statement"? There's tons of evidence out there. Yes China does gain anything by prolonging violence in HK. The worse the situation gets, the more reason they are to interefere in a more serious, military capacity. If China is successful in making the world see this as "HK people are the ones who are violent, and they are a danger to themselves, we're moving in to ensure HK's safety" then it's precisely the best possible outcome for China. There will never be any demonstrations or riots again. HK will be done.
Stop exaggerating, you are taking an overly conspiratorial view of China's strategy. This will not be the last riot and there will be plenty more riots in the future, even after 2047 when HK autonomy ends. China is a country where over 100k protest (government acknowledge number btw, real number is higher) occur each year over government corruption or social justice issues.
No, you're taking an overly naive view of the situation, that is not how the world works, especially when arrogant superpowers are involved. Same way the demonstrations and riots in Ukraine were infused with Russians in disguise making them much violent then they would've ever been otherwise, and they capitalized on it by starting an invasion, and surgically cutting off a part of Ukraine. Superpowers always have ulterior motives, and they always benefit from such territories' riots being as bloody as possible, because otherwise they don't have a reason to intervene. Peaceful protests only benefit the protestors. What exactly does HK have to gain from doing violent protests and bloodshed in their own land? It makes zero sense.
in HK's case- If a bloodbath occurs, then no, there won't be anymore riots. It'll either be over, or war, HK loses in either scenario.
So you are saying that Russia helped a US backed Ukraine coup to topple a russian friendly government who was giving access to strategical ports so they can invade Ukraine and take does ports anyway risking world condemnation and sanction wrecking their economy... While just enjoying both the ports and economical growth? .
Honestly I don't even get what you're trying to say. and it doesn't even matter. Fact is, Russia was the one who invaded Ukraine in the end, and took a piece of their autonomous territory. Russia is the only side that gained anything of worth from it.
The two events have nothing in common and, if anything Hong Kong rioters don't have any power to take down the government, at best what they can do is acts of vandalism and arsonism which again doesn't benefit China. China benefits if riots move on and everything is forgotten. Why would China want to take something that it's already theirs and risk world condemnation and stripping Hong Kong of it's financial status?
Riots moving on and everything being forgotten is not an option and never was, so the point is mute. China does not give a shit about world condemnation when it comes to taking HKG. All they want is to make HKG a part of China fully, and not have HK people peep about anything.
Are you saying that all the acts of vandalism and arsonism are mediated by the Chinese government, trashing Chinese mainland business in Hong Kong? At this point the US senate are the ones supporting the riots with the eventual sanctions to Hong Kong business which doesn't benefit anyone to say the least
Yes, I'm saying that a huge part of them are mediated by China. Is everything in the world the fault of the US? A good chunk of the entire world is supporting the riots now, why only talk about US?
On October 15 2019 11:42 zenist wrote: Regarding HK protest, it has been proven that many Chinese police have disguised themselves as protesters to conduct violence.
Regardless of violence though, you can't blame HKers for protesting because carrie lam (controlled by the communist party) made stupid move of barring masks. The movement was dying down after completely getting rid of the extradition bill.
This is a false statement, China doesn't gain anything by prolonging violence in Hong Kong and benefits only if Hong Kong moves on from the violence.
First of all riots were not dying down, they continued even worse if you follow the news there regularly. Second the mask ban is necessary to catch rioters and vandalists and arsonists and to discourage the continuation of this acts... A normal law in many asian countries like Singapore as well as western countries like the US.
I don't blame peaceful protesters, but I hope everyone who committed violence there would be dealt with the full extent of the law. I just can't support violence and vandalism:
how the hell is it a "false statement"? There's tons of evidence out there. Yes China does gain anything by prolonging violence in HK. The worse the situation gets, the more reason they are to interefere in a more serious, military capacity. If China is successful in making the world see this as "HK people are the ones who are violent, and they are a danger to themselves, we're moving in to ensure HK's safety" then it's precisely the best possible outcome for China. There will never be any demonstrations or riots again. HK will be done.
Stop exaggerating, you are taking an overly conspiratorial view of China's strategy. This will not be the last riot and there will be plenty more riots in the future, even after 2047 when HK autonomy ends. China is a country where over 100k protest (government acknowledge number btw, real number is higher) occur each year over government corruption or social justice issues.
The only reason HK can protest is exactly because they're not part of China. These aren't conspiracy theories, these things have and will happen. Just because you choose to stick your head in the dirt doesn't make it less true.
China is looking for excuses to send in the military, and to that end it benefits them greatly that the protests turn violent. You have to be unrealistically naive to believe otherwise from a government who runs concentration camps, harvest organs, kills politicians and regular people who voices their opinions against the current government, who runs a dystopian nation wide facial recognition system in pure 1984 fashion, and who runs their own people over with tanks and dumptrucks when they protest.
100k protests a year? Based on whose numbers? Even Chinese mainlanders who supports their government haven't attempted to pretend they can speak up against their own government.
Highly unlikely at this point in time. China most of all cares about it's economical growth. With trade war at it's peak it won't attempt to do anything controversial. Even the Hong Kong government which is pro China aren't hinting at asking Beijing to interfere and are thinking that it won't come to it:
"Hong Kong finance chief Paul Chan said it was unlikely Beijing would sent forces from mainland China to end Hong Kong’s pro-democracy movement. Photo: Winson Wong"
On October 15 2019 11:42 zenist wrote: Regarding HK protest, it has been proven that many Chinese police have disguised themselves as protesters to conduct violence.
Regardless of violence though, you can't blame HKers for protesting because carrie lam (controlled by the communist party) made stupid move of barring masks. The movement was dying down after completely getting rid of the extradition bill.
This is a false statement, China doesn't gain anything by prolonging violence in Hong Kong and benefits only if Hong Kong moves on from the violence.
First of all riots were not dying down, they continued even worse if you follow the news there regularly. Second the mask ban is necessary to catch rioters and vandalists and arsonists and to discourage the continuation of this acts... A normal law in many asian countries like Singapore as well as western countries like the US.
I don't blame peaceful protesters, but I hope everyone who committed violence there would be dealt with the full extent of the law. I just can't support violence and vandalism:
how the hell is it a "false statement"? There's tons of evidence out there. Yes China does gain anything by prolonging violence in HK. The worse the situation gets, the more reason they are to interefere in a more serious, military capacity. If China is successful in making the world see this as "HK people are the ones who are violent, and they are a danger to themselves, we're moving in to ensure HK's safety" then it's precisely the best possible outcome for China. There will never be any demonstrations or riots again. HK will be done.
Stop exaggerating, you are taking an overly conspiratorial view of China's strategy. This will not be the last riot and there will be plenty more riots in the future, even after 2047 when HK autonomy ends. China is a country where over 100k protest (government acknowledge number btw, real number is higher) occur each year over government corruption or social justice issues.
No, you're taking an overly naive view of the situation, that is not how the world works, especially when arrogant superpowers are involved. Same way the demonstrations and riots in Ukraine were infused with Russians in disguise making them much violent then they would've ever been otherwise, and they capitalized on it by starting an invasion, and surgically cutting off a part of Ukraine. Superpowers always have ulterior motives, and they always benefit from such territories' riots being as bloody as possible, because otherwise they don't have a reason to intervene. Peaceful protests only benefit the protestors. What exactly does HK have to gain from doing violent protests and bloodshed in their own land? It makes zero sense.
in HK's case- If a bloodbath occurs, then no, there won't be anymore riots. It'll either be over, or war, HK loses in either scenario.
So you are saying that Russia helped a US backed Ukraine coup to topple a russian friendly government who was giving access to strategical ports so they can invade Ukraine and take does ports anyway risking world condemnation and sanction wrecking their economy... While just enjoying both the ports and economical growth? .
Honestly I don't even get what you're trying to say. and it doesn't even matter. Fact is, Russia was the one who invaded Ukraine in the end, and took a piece of their autonomous territory. Russia is the only side that gained anything of worth from it.
The two events have nothing in common and, if anything Hong Kong rioters don't have any power to take down the government, at best what they can do is acts of vandalism and arsonism which again doesn't benefit China. China benefits if riots move on and everything is forgotten. Why would China want to take something that it's already theirs and risk world condemnation and stripping Hong Kong of it's financial status?
Riots moving on and everything being forgotten is not an option and never was, so the point is mute. China does not give a shit about world condemnation when it comes to taking HKG. All they want is to make HKG a part of China fully, and not have HK people peep about anything.
Are you saying that all the acts of vandalism and arsonism are mediated by the Chinese government, trashing Chinese mainland business in Hong Kong? At this point the US senate are the ones supporting the riots with the eventual sanctions to Hong Kong business which doesn't benefit anyone to say the least
Yes, I'm saying that a huge part of them are mediated by China. Is everything in the world the fault of the US? A good chunk of the entire world is supporting the riots now, why only talk about US?
No one supports violence, they are supporting increase in the freedom and human rights of Hong Kong people, not a revolution. I talk about the US because it's the only country that can inflict any damage to China and has the biggest track record of foreign interferences.
On October 15 2019 11:42 zenist wrote: Regarding HK protest, it has been proven that many Chinese police have disguised themselves as protesters to conduct violence.
Regardless of violence though, you can't blame HKers for protesting because carrie lam (controlled by the communist party) made stupid move of barring masks. The movement was dying down after completely getting rid of the extradition bill.
This is a false statement, China doesn't gain anything by prolonging violence in Hong Kong and benefits only if Hong Kong moves on from the violence.
First of all riots were not dying down, they continued even worse if you follow the news there regularly. Second the mask ban is necessary to catch rioters and vandalists and arsonists and to discourage the continuation of this acts... A normal law in many asian countries like Singapore as well as western countries like the US.
I don't blame peaceful protesters, but I hope everyone who committed violence there would be dealt with the full extent of the law. I just can't support violence and vandalism:
how the hell is it a "false statement"? There's tons of evidence out there. Yes China does gain anything by prolonging violence in HK. The worse the situation gets, the more reason they are to interefere in a more serious, military capacity. If China is successful in making the world see this as "HK people are the ones who are violent, and they are a danger to themselves, we're moving in to ensure HK's safety" then it's precisely the best possible outcome for China. There will never be any demonstrations or riots again. HK will be done.
Stop exaggerating, you are taking an overly conspiratorial view of China's strategy. This will not be the last riot and there will be plenty more riots in the future, even after 2047 when HK autonomy ends. China is a country where over 100k protest (government acknowledge number btw, real number is higher) occur each year over government corruption or social justice issues.
The only reason HK can protest is exactly because they're not part of China. These aren't conspiracy theories, these things have and will happen. Just because you choose to stick your head in the dirt doesn't make it less true.
China is looking for excuses to send in the military, and to that end it benefits them greatly that the protests turn violent. You have to be unrealistically naive to believe otherwise from a government who runs concentration camps, harvest organs, kills politicians and regular people who voices their opinions against the current government, who runs a dystopian nation wide facial recognition system in pure 1984 fashion, and who runs their own people over with tanks and dumptrucks when they protest.
100k protests a year? Based on whose numbers? Even Chinese mainlanders who supports their government haven't attempted to pretend they can speak up against their own government.
Highly unlikely at this point in time. China most of all cares about it's economical growth. With trade war at it's peak it won't attempt to do anything controversial. Even the Hong Kong government which is pro China aren't hinting at asking Beijing to interfere and are thinking that it won't come to it:
"Hong Kong finance chief Paul Chan said it was unlikely Beijing would sent forces from mainland China to end Hong Kong’s pro-democracy movement. Photo: Winson Wong"
China does care a huge part about their economical growth. But that's not the only thing they care about. Paying the world back for their "ultimate humiliation" is by far the most important thing it seems, economical growth is just the best way to make it happen. Also lol at the quote and article - Paul Chen must be the one deciding these matters.
EDIT: How can you even think that China won't do anything controversial? Literally everything that is happening with Blitzchung, NBA, and all the other pressure China is doing. All of it is controversial. China doesn't have a problem with doing anything controversial, they just care about it being done in a way where people don't know they're involved.
On October 15 2019 11:42 zenist wrote: Regarding HK protest, it has been proven that many Chinese police have disguised themselves as protesters to conduct violence.
Regardless of violence though, you can't blame HKers for protesting because carrie lam (controlled by the communist party) made stupid move of barring masks. The movement was dying down after completely getting rid of the extradition bill.
This is a false statement, China doesn't gain anything by prolonging violence in Hong Kong and benefits only if Hong Kong moves on from the violence.
First of all riots were not dying down, they continued even worse if you follow the news there regularly. Second the mask ban is necessary to catch rioters and vandalists and arsonists and to discourage the continuation of this acts... A normal law in many asian countries like Singapore as well as western countries like the US.
I don't blame peaceful protesters, but I hope everyone who committed violence there would be dealt with the full extent of the law. I just can't support violence and vandalism:
how the hell is it a "false statement"? There's tons of evidence out there. Yes China does gain anything by prolonging violence in HK. The worse the situation gets, the more reason they are to interefere in a more serious, military capacity. If China is successful in making the world see this as "HK people are the ones who are violent, and they are a danger to themselves, we're moving in to ensure HK's safety" then it's precisely the best possible outcome for China. There will never be any demonstrations or riots again. HK will be done.
Stop exaggerating, you are taking an overly conspiratorial view of China's strategy. This will not be the last riot and there will be plenty more riots in the future, even after 2047 when HK autonomy ends. China is a country where over 100k protest (government acknowledge number btw, real number is higher) occur each year over government corruption or social justice issues.
The only reason HK can protest is exactly because they're not part of China. These aren't conspiracy theories, these things have and will happen. Just because you choose to stick your head in the dirt doesn't make it less true.
China is looking for excuses to send in the military, and to that end it benefits them greatly that the protests turn violent. You have to be unrealistically naive to believe otherwise from a government who runs concentration camps, harvest organs, kills politicians and regular people who voices their opinions against the current government, who runs a dystopian nation wide facial recognition system in pure 1984 fashion, and who runs their own people over with tanks and dumptrucks when they protest.
100k protests a year? Based on whose numbers? Even Chinese mainlanders who supports their government haven't attempted to pretend they can speak up against their own government.
Highly unlikely at this point in time. China most of all cares about it's economical growth. With trade war at it's peak it won't attempt to do anything controversial. Even the Hong Kong government which is pro China aren't hinting at asking Beijing to interfere and are thinking that it won't come to it:
"Hong Kong finance chief Paul Chan said it was unlikely Beijing would sent forces from mainland China to end Hong Kong’s pro-democracy movement. Photo: Winson Wong"
China does care a huge part about their economical growth. But that's not the only thing they care about. Paying the world back for their "ultimate humiliation" is by far the most important thing it seems, economical growth is just the best way to make it happen. Also lol at the quote and article - Paul Chen must be the one deciding these matters.
EDIT: How can you even think that China won't do anything controversial? Literally everything that is happening with Blitzchung, NBA, and all the other pressure China is doing. All of it is controversial. China doesn't have a problem with doing anything controversial, they just care about it being done in a way where people don't know they're involved.
Territorial integrity and economical growth are the only 2 things that China really cares about, and will defend them by any means necessary. There is no master plan to humiliate the world for it's century of humiliation I don't know where people get that. China would sanction anyone supporting Hong Kong's autonomy, because it directly interferes with their interests, but it won't resort to escalating the situation with the army, because it doesn't need to. The rioters are not in a position to topple the Hong Kong government, Hong Kong is economically stable as the article I posted in my above post, the only step is for the police to take control of the situation by themselves.
Territorial integrity and economical growth are the only 2 things that China really cares about, and will defend them by any means necessary. There is no master plan to humiliate the world for it's century of humiliation I don't know where people get that. China would sanction anyone supporting Hong Kong's autonomy, because it directly interferes with their interests, but it won't resort to escalating the situation with the army, because it doesn't need to. The rioters are not in a position to topple the Hong Kong government, Hong Kong is economically stable as the article I posted in my above post, the only step is for the police to take control of the situation by themselves.
Yep HK Protestors showed that their power is very limited. It does not spark AT ALL with mainlanders, taiwanese or the World. The protests are endurable now, and they will tone down eventually. Hong Kong Protestors have no forum to proclaim independence to, even the parlament is no place for it (from my understanding, they don't really want it either) so all the protesters cause is some action for the police. In germany we have culturized protest and destruction as well. So on first of may you can go smash some cars ans shopfronts in Hamburg and Berlin, the police will watch, and that was it. It's more like a wild party, than actual political protest. And since it is so meaningless, the attendence gets less every year.
The future of global society is not a civil uprising against the local unbalances in wealth, power and freedom, but rather the numbing tollerance of a padded cell.
On October 15 2019 11:42 zenist wrote: Regarding HK protest, it has been proven that many Chinese police have disguised themselves as protesters to conduct violence.
Regardless of violence though, you can't blame HKers for protesting because carrie lam (controlled by the communist party) made stupid move of barring masks. The movement was dying down after completely getting rid of the extradition bill.
This is a false statement, China doesn't gain anything by prolonging violence in Hong Kong and benefits only if Hong Kong moves on from the violence.
First of all riots were not dying down, they continued even worse if you follow the news there regularly. Second the mask ban is necessary to catch rioters and vandalists and arsonists and to discourage the continuation of this acts... A normal law in many asian countries like Singapore as well as western countries like the US.
I don't blame peaceful protesters, but I hope everyone who committed violence there would be dealt with the full extent of the law. I just can't support violence and vandalism:
how the hell is it a "false statement"? There's tons of evidence out there. Yes China does gain anything by prolonging violence in HK. The worse the situation gets, the more reason they are to interefere in a more serious, military capacity. If China is successful in making the world see this as "HK people are the ones who are violent, and they are a danger to themselves, we're moving in to ensure HK's safety" then it's precisely the best possible outcome for China. There will never be any demonstrations or riots again. HK will be done.
Stop exaggerating, you are taking an overly conspiratorial view of China's strategy. This will not be the last riot and there will be plenty more riots in the future, even after 2047 when HK autonomy ends. China is a country where over 100k protest (government acknowledge number btw, real number is higher) occur each year over government corruption or social justice issues.
The only reason HK can protest is exactly because they're not part of China. These aren't conspiracy theories, these things have and will happen. Just because you choose to stick your head in the dirt doesn't make it less true.
China is looking for excuses to send in the military, and to that end it benefits them greatly that the protests turn violent. You have to be unrealistically naive to believe otherwise from a government who runs concentration camps, harvest organs, kills politicians and regular people who voices their opinions against the current government, who runs a dystopian nation wide facial recognition system in pure 1984 fashion, and who runs their own people over with tanks and dumptrucks when they protest.
100k protests a year? Based on whose numbers? Even Chinese mainlanders who supports their government haven't attempted to pretend they can speak up against their own government.
Highly unlikely at this point in time. China most of all cares about it's economical growth. With trade war at it's peak it won't attempt to do anything controversial. Even the Hong Kong government which is pro China aren't hinting at asking Beijing to interfere and are thinking that it won't come to it:
"Hong Kong finance chief Paul Chan said it was unlikely Beijing would sent forces from mainland China to end Hong Kong’s pro-democracy movement. Photo: Winson Wong"
China does care a huge part about their economical growth. But that's not the only thing they care about. Paying the world back for their "ultimate humiliation" is by far the most important thing it seems, economical growth is just the best way to make it happen. Also lol at the quote and article - Paul Chen must be the one deciding these matters.
EDIT: How can you even think that China won't do anything controversial? Literally everything that is happening with Blitzchung, NBA, and all the other pressure China is doing. All of it is controversial. China doesn't have a problem with doing anything controversial, they just care about it being done in a way where people don't know they're involved.
Territorial integrity and economical growth are the only 2 things that China really cares about, and will defend them by any means necessary. There is no master plan to humiliate the world for it's century of humiliation I don't know where people get that. China would sanction anyone supporting Hong Kong's autonomy, because it directly interferes with their interests, but it won't resort to escalating the situation with the army, because it doesn't need to. The rioters are not in a position to topple the Hong Kong government, Hong Kong is economically stable as the article I posted in my above post, the only step is for the police to take control of the situation by themselves.
You seem so very sure about knowing everything about how everyone thinks.
The protests matter in HK because it is a democracy, even if the people won't take matters in their own hands practically and do a full blown coup the stone is rolling to change the leadership in HK. If China won't allow for democracy in HK maybe other nations will intercede like the U.S. Either way the protest actually are in a position to make huge sweeping changes as soon as they receive their ballots. China could stop that though, if they get good enough of an excuse to intervene with their military.
These matters are complex and its impossible for us "normal" people to know what is really going on behind the scenes.
On October 21 2019 18:40 raga4ka wrote: No one supports violence, they are supporting increase in the freedom and human rights of Hong Kong people, not a revolution. I talk about the US because it's the only country that can inflict any damage to China and has the biggest track record of foreign interferences.
No one supports violence on their soil. Other places - they most definitely do. China being part of the cream of the crop.
On October 15 2019 11:42 zenist wrote: Regarding HK protest, it has been proven that many Chinese police have disguised themselves as protesters to conduct violence.
Regardless of violence though, you can't blame HKers for protesting because carrie lam (controlled by the communist party) made stupid move of barring masks. The movement was dying down after completely getting rid of the extradition bill.
This is a false statement, China doesn't gain anything by prolonging violence in Hong Kong and benefits only if Hong Kong moves on from the violence.
First of all riots were not dying down, they continued even worse if you follow the news there regularly. Second the mask ban is necessary to catch rioters and vandalists and arsonists and to discourage the continuation of this acts... A normal law in many asian countries like Singapore as well as western countries like the US.
I don't blame peaceful protesters, but I hope everyone who committed violence there would be dealt with the full extent of the law. I just can't support violence and vandalism:
how the hell is it a "false statement"? There's tons of evidence out there. Yes China does gain anything by prolonging violence in HK. The worse the situation gets, the more reason they are to interefere in a more serious, military capacity. If China is successful in making the world see this as "HK people are the ones who are violent, and they are a danger to themselves, we're moving in to ensure HK's safety" then it's precisely the best possible outcome for China. There will never be any demonstrations or riots again. HK will be done.
Stop exaggerating, you are taking an overly conspiratorial view of China's strategy. This will not be the last riot and there will be plenty more riots in the future, even after 2047 when HK autonomy ends. China is a country where over 100k protest (government acknowledge number btw, real number is higher) occur each year over government corruption or social justice issues.
The only reason HK can protest is exactly because they're not part of China. These aren't conspiracy theories, these things have and will happen. Just because you choose to stick your head in the dirt doesn't make it less true.
China is looking for excuses to send in the military, and to that end it benefits them greatly that the protests turn violent. You have to be unrealistically naive to believe otherwise from a government who runs concentration camps, harvest organs, kills politicians and regular people who voices their opinions against the current government, who runs a dystopian nation wide facial recognition system in pure 1984 fashion, and who runs their own people over with tanks and dumptrucks when they protest.
100k protests a year? Based on whose numbers? Even Chinese mainlanders who supports their government haven't attempted to pretend they can speak up against their own government.
Highly unlikely at this point in time. China most of all cares about it's economical growth. With trade war at it's peak it won't attempt to do anything controversial. Even the Hong Kong government which is pro China aren't hinting at asking Beijing to interfere and are thinking that it won't come to it:
"Hong Kong finance chief Paul Chan said it was unlikely Beijing would sent forces from mainland China to end Hong Kong’s pro-democracy movement. Photo: Winson Wong"
China does care a huge part about their economical growth. But that's not the only thing they care about. Paying the world back for their "ultimate humiliation" is by far the most important thing it seems, economical growth is just the best way to make it happen. Also lol at the quote and article - Paul Chen must be the one deciding these matters.
EDIT: How can you even think that China won't do anything controversial? Literally everything that is happening with Blitzchung, NBA, and all the other pressure China is doing. All of it is controversial. China doesn't have a problem with doing anything controversial, they just care about it being done in a way where people don't know they're involved.
Territorial integrity and economical growth are the only 2 things that China really cares about, and will defend them by any means necessary. There is no master plan to humiliate the world for it's century of humiliation I don't know where people get that. China would sanction anyone supporting Hong Kong's autonomy, because it directly interferes with their interests, but it won't resort to escalating the situation with the army, because it doesn't need to. The rioters are not in a position to topple the Hong Kong government, Hong Kong is economically stable as the article I posted in my above post, the only step is for the police to take control of the situation by themselves.
It certainly comes up a lot as a talking point when Chinese posters appear on threads such as this or elsewhere.
Of course it doesn’t necessarily follow that the corridors of power are motivated by such sentiments. It could very well be the case that territorial integrity and economic growth are the sole motivators there, but the ‘avenging humiliation’ angle being quite useful to drum up support.
National humiliation is not something the entire nation just starts feeling themselves. It's something that the government pushes on to the population with lots and lots of brainwashing and propoganda. I say this as a person from a country that has seen its fair share of humiliation and the sort.
There's no doubt that it is a driving factor in decision-making when it comes to China's goals.
On October 15 2019 11:42 zenist wrote: Regarding HK protest, it has been proven that many Chinese police have disguised themselves as protesters to conduct violence.
Regardless of violence though, you can't blame HKers for protesting because carrie lam (controlled by the communist party) made stupid move of barring masks. The movement was dying down after completely getting rid of the extradition bill.
This is a false statement, China doesn't gain anything by prolonging violence in Hong Kong and benefits only if Hong Kong moves on from the violence.
First of all riots were not dying down, they continued even worse if you follow the news there regularly. Second the mask ban is necessary to catch rioters and vandalists and arsonists and to discourage the continuation of this acts... A normal law in many asian countries like Singapore as well as western countries like the US.
I don't blame peaceful protesters, but I hope everyone who committed violence there would be dealt with the full extent of the law. I just can't support violence and vandalism:
how the hell is it a "false statement"? There's tons of evidence out there. Yes China does gain anything by prolonging violence in HK. The worse the situation gets, the more reason they are to interefere in a more serious, military capacity. If China is successful in making the world see this as "HK people are the ones who are violent, and they are a danger to themselves, we're moving in to ensure HK's safety" then it's precisely the best possible outcome for China. There will never be any demonstrations or riots again. HK will be done.
Stop exaggerating, you are taking an overly conspiratorial view of China's strategy. This will not be the last riot and there will be plenty more riots in the future, even after 2047 when HK autonomy ends. China is a country where over 100k protest (government acknowledge number btw, real number is higher) occur each year over government corruption or social justice issues.
The only reason HK can protest is exactly because they're not part of China. These aren't conspiracy theories, these things have and will happen. Just because you choose to stick your head in the dirt doesn't make it less true.
China is looking for excuses to send in the military, and to that end it benefits them greatly that the protests turn violent. You have to be unrealistically naive to believe otherwise from a government who runs concentration camps, harvest organs, kills politicians and regular people who voices their opinions against the current government, who runs a dystopian nation wide facial recognition system in pure 1984 fashion, and who runs their own people over with tanks and dumptrucks when they protest.
100k protests a year? Based on whose numbers? Even Chinese mainlanders who supports their government haven't attempted to pretend they can speak up against their own government.
Highly unlikely at this point in time. China most of all cares about it's economical growth. With trade war at it's peak it won't attempt to do anything controversial. Even the Hong Kong government which is pro China aren't hinting at asking Beijing to interfere and are thinking that it won't come to it:
"Hong Kong finance chief Paul Chan said it was unlikely Beijing would sent forces from mainland China to end Hong Kong’s pro-democracy movement. Photo: Winson Wong"
China does care a huge part about their economical growth. But that's not the only thing they care about. Paying the world back for their "ultimate humiliation" is by far the most important thing it seems, economical growth is just the best way to make it happen. Also lol at the quote and article - Paul Chen must be the one deciding these matters.
EDIT: How can you even think that China won't do anything controversial? Literally everything that is happening with Blitzchung, NBA, and all the other pressure China is doing. All of it is controversial. China doesn't have a problem with doing anything controversial, they just care about it being done in a way where people don't know they're involved.
Territorial integrity and economical growth are the only 2 things that China really cares about, and will defend them by any means necessary. There is no master plan to humiliate the world for it's century of humiliation I don't know where people get that. China would sanction anyone supporting Hong Kong's autonomy, because it directly interferes with their interests, but it won't resort to escalating the situation with the army, because it doesn't need to. The rioters are not in a position to topple the Hong Kong government, Hong Kong is economically stable as the article I posted in my above post, the only step is for the police to take control of the situation by themselves.
It certainly comes up a lot as a talking point when Chinese posters appear on threads such as this or elsewhere.
Of course it doesn’t necessarily follow that the corridors of power are motivated by such sentiments. It could very well be the case that territorial integrity and economic growth are the sole motivators there, but the ‘avenging humiliation’ angle being quite useful to drum up support.
Avenging humiliation is a great way to drum up nationalist support and resonates well with them. I highly doubt those in charge care about it, they just want to ensure control over the population and a democratic HK runs against that and could serve as a basis for dissent on the mainland. That is why it will inevitably be stamped out.
Pretty much every dictatorship in the world thinks of a reason why the rest of the world is their enemy and the people must unite behind the government.
On October 21 2019 00:45 raga4ka wrote: First of all riots were not dying down, they continued even worse if you follow the news there regularly. Second the mask ban is necessary to catch rioters and vandalists and arsonists and to discourage the continuation of this acts... A normal law in many asian countries like Singapore as well as western countries like the US.
The internet lounges and PC Bangs in the worst areas of Toronto all forbid wearing anything that covers one's face including any kind of hood. Very generally speaking, I support a face mask ban.
does Toronto have face recognition cameras installed everywhere which are actively used and is Toronto known to make people disappear and then reappear again dead and naked in the river? If I were in such a place, I'd very much prefer to wear a mask, thank you.
Toronto has a murder rate similar to New York State. In fact, last year Toronto's murder rate was slightly higher than New York City's murder rate.
On October 21 2019 00:45 raga4ka wrote: First of all riots were not dying down, they continued even worse if you follow the news there regularly. Second the mask ban is necessary to catch rioters and vandalists and arsonists and to discourage the continuation of this acts... A normal law in many asian countries like Singapore as well as western countries like the US.
The internet lounges and PC Bangs in the worst areas of Toronto all forbid wearing anything that covers one's face including any kind of hood. Very generally speaking, I support a face mask ban.
does Toronto have face recognition cameras installed everywhere which are actively used and is Toronto known to make people disappear and then reappear again dead and naked in the river? If I were in such a place, I'd very much prefer to wear a mask, thank you.
Toronto has a murder rate similar to New York State. In fact, last year Toronto's murder rate was slightly higher than New York City's murder rate.
that's great, but does the Canadian government actually find people who they deem as Uncanadian, and have them disappear?
EDIT: I didn't really mean regular murder rates. I meant more to the extent of there are several cases, just in the past few weeks, where pro-HKG people have disappeared, and then found tortured or dead, and for some reason all of the records of these people being on camera seem to have been lost after a certain point. Which coincidentally is the main reason why the protesters use masks (that, and because it's defense from many of the gasses that the police use). Not wearing your mask can literally be a life-or-death question.
On October 21 2019 20:41 abuse wrote: National humiliation is not something the entire nation just starts feeling themselves. It's something that the government pushes on to the population with lots and lots of brainwashing and propoganda. I say this as a person from a country that has seen its fair share of humiliation and the sort.
There's no doubt that it is a driving factor in decision-making when it comes to China's goals.
Indeed, although of course not limited to governments and state apparatus.
I rarely find it a positive narrative to push, as it connects legitimate historical grievance in a direct line up to the contemporary in one big ball of aggravation.
Thankfully it’s rarer in my neck of the woods these days but even still I end up in the odd angry pub argument about what you British’ did that somehow makes it appropriate to get aggressive with someone who wasn’t alive, nor today has much in the way of political influence.
On October 15 2019 11:42 zenist wrote: Regarding HK protest, it has been proven that many Chinese police have disguised themselves as protesters to conduct violence.
Regardless of violence though, you can't blame HKers for protesting because carrie lam (controlled by the communist party) made stupid move of barring masks. The movement was dying down after completely getting rid of the extradition bill.
This is a false statement, China doesn't gain anything by prolonging violence in Hong Kong and benefits only if Hong Kong moves on from the violence.
First of all riots were not dying down, they continued even worse if you follow the news there regularly. Second the mask ban is necessary to catch rioters and vandalists and arsonists and to discourage the continuation of this acts... A normal law in many asian countries like Singapore as well as western countries like the US.
I don't blame peaceful protesters, but I hope everyone who committed violence there would be dealt with the full extent of the law. I just can't support violence and vandalism:
how the hell is it a "false statement"? There's tons of evidence out there. Yes China does gain anything by prolonging violence in HK. The worse the situation gets, the more reason they are to interefere in a more serious, military capacity. If China is successful in making the world see this as "HK people are the ones who are violent, and they are a danger to themselves, we're moving in to ensure HK's safety" then it's precisely the best possible outcome for China. There will never be any demonstrations or riots again. HK will be done.
Stop exaggerating, you are taking an overly conspiratorial view of China's strategy. This will not be the last riot and there will be plenty more riots in the future, even after 2047 when HK autonomy ends. China is a country where over 100k protest (government acknowledge number btw, real number is higher) occur each year over government corruption or social justice issues.
The only reason HK can protest is exactly because they're not part of China. These aren't conspiracy theories, these things have and will happen. Just because you choose to stick your head in the dirt doesn't make it less true.
China is looking for excuses to send in the military, and to that end it benefits them greatly that the protests turn violent. You have to be unrealistically naive to believe otherwise from a government who runs concentration camps, harvest organs, kills politicians and regular people who voices their opinions against the current government, who runs a dystopian nation wide facial recognition system in pure 1984 fashion, and who runs their own people over with tanks and dumptrucks when they protest.
100k protests a year? Based on whose numbers? Even Chinese mainlanders who supports their government haven't attempted to pretend they can speak up against their own government.
Highly unlikely at this point in time. China most of all cares about it's economical growth. With trade war at it's peak it won't attempt to do anything controversial. Even the Hong Kong government which is pro China aren't hinting at asking Beijing to interfere and are thinking that it won't come to it:
"Hong Kong finance chief Paul Chan said it was unlikely Beijing would sent forces from mainland China to end Hong Kong’s pro-democracy movement. Photo: Winson Wong"
China does care a huge part about their economical growth. But that's not the only thing they care about. Paying the world back for their "ultimate humiliation" is by far the most important thing it seems, economical growth is just the best way to make it happen. Also lol at the quote and article - Paul Chen must be the one deciding these matters.
EDIT: How can you even think that China won't do anything controversial? Literally everything that is happening with Blitzchung, NBA, and all the other pressure China is doing. All of it is controversial. China doesn't have a problem with doing anything controversial, they just care about it being done in a way where people don't know they're involved.
Territorial integrity and economical growth are the only 2 things that China really cares about, and will defend them by any means necessary. There is no master plan to humiliate the world for it's century of humiliation I don't know where people get that. China would sanction anyone supporting Hong Kong's autonomy, because it directly interferes with their interests, but it won't resort to escalating the situation with the army, because it doesn't need to. The rioters are not in a position to topple the Hong Kong government, Hong Kong is economically stable as the article I posted in my above post, the only step is for the police to take control of the situation by themselves.
It certainly comes up a lot as a talking point when Chinese posters appear on threads such as this or elsewhere.
Of course it doesn’t necessarily follow that the corridors of power are motivated by such sentiments. It could very well be the case that territorial integrity and economic growth are the sole motivators there, but the ‘avenging humiliation’ angle being quite useful to drum up support.
It was raga4ka in the first place that brought up "century of humiliation" here, an entirely PRC concept pushed by the PRC, as a reason to oppose the protests in Hong Kong. Until then it was never mentioned, an unknown concept to this forum
Funny how now that he says PRC doesn't care about it, when it so obviously does as part of its national mythmaking just so it can, successfully in raga4ka's case, to persuade people to their line of thinking.
Unfortunately if someone is posting on any kind of public forum or social media from within China, you can't even trust that it's their real opinion anymore. Anyone in China kinda needs to play the "no, it's actually me that has the most support for our great nation!" game. They are literally being rated on it, and their quality of life depends on it. It's very sad. I hope we can stave off this kind of oppressive system from spreading to the west.
On October 21 2019 22:07 travis wrote: Unfortunately if someone is posting on any kind of public forum or social media from within China, you can't even trust that it's their real opinion anymore. Anyone in China kinda needs to play the "no, it's actually me that has the most support for our great nation!" game. They are literally being rated on it, and their quality of life depends on it. It's very sad. I hope we can stave off this kind of oppressive system from spreading to the west.
But I am worried we won't able to....
It does kind of feel like people are now recognizing how big China's ambitions are as a whole. What happens next is up for grabs, but if major companies keep sucking on China's cucumber, then it's not going to end well indeed. Are people ok with China dictating the rules for the entire world? The next few years will tell.
On October 21 2019 22:07 travis wrote: Unfortunately if someone is posting on any kind of public forum or social media from within China, you can't even trust that it's their real opinion anymore. Anyone in China kinda needs to play the "no, it's actually me that has the most support for our great nation!" game. They are literally being rated on it, and their quality of life depends on it. It's very sad. I hope we can stave off this kind of oppressive system from spreading to the west.
But I am worried we won't able to....
It does kind of feel like people are now recognizing how big China's ambitions are as a whole. What happens next is up for grabs, but if major companies keep sucking on China's cucumber, then it's not going to end well indeed. Are people ok with China dictating the rules for the entire world? The next few years will tell.
The problem is, is the rest of the world willing to lower their standard of living considerably to fight Chinas economic domination?
The reason the western world still enjoy such a "booming" economy is because of China, if China shuts us out our economy will plummet and we would have to adapt our lifestyles to that. Also another big reason is that China barely pay their employees to mass produce products that we can buy cheaply here in the western world. Therefore a decent standard of living is possible for quite low cost for ys but that is only possible as long as China lends their cheap workforce to make wares for us.
It is not an exaggeration to state that China is the backbone for our luxurious living, they own us and they know it.
On October 21 2019 22:07 travis wrote: Unfortunately if someone is posting on any kind of public forum or social media from within China, you can't even trust that it's their real opinion anymore. Anyone in China kinda needs to play the "no, it's actually me that has the most support for our great nation!" game. They are literally being rated on it, and their quality of life depends on it. It's very sad. I hope we can stave off this kind of oppressive system from spreading to the west.
But I am worried we won't able to....
It does kind of feel like people are now recognizing how big China's ambitions are as a whole. What happens next is up for grabs, but if major companies keep sucking on China's cucumber, then it's not going to end well indeed. Are people ok with China dictating the rules for the entire world? The next few years will tell.
The problem is, is the rest of the world willing to lower their standard of living considerably to fight Chinas economic domination?
The reason the western world still enjoy such a "booming" economy is because of China, if China shuts us out our economy will plummet and we would have to adapt our lifestyles to that. Also another big reason is that China barely pay their employees to mass produce products that we can buy cheaply here in the western world. Therefore a decent standard of living is possible for quite low cost for ys but that is only possible as long as China lends their cheap workforce to make wares for us.
It is not an exaggeration to state that China is the backbone for our luxurious living, they own us and they know it.
Indeed. We want to have it all in the West, have cheap stuff but not really question why it’s so cheap.
On October 21 2019 22:07 travis wrote: Unfortunately if someone is posting on any kind of public forum or social media from within China, you can't even trust that it's their real opinion anymore. Anyone in China kinda needs to play the "no, it's actually me that has the most support for our great nation!" game. They are literally being rated on it, and their quality of life depends on it. It's very sad. I hope we can stave off this kind of oppressive system from spreading to the west.
But I am worried we won't able to....
It does kind of feel like people are now recognizing how big China's ambitions are as a whole. What happens next is up for grabs, but if major companies keep sucking on China's cucumber, then it's not going to end well indeed. Are people ok with China dictating the rules for the entire world? The next few years will tell.
The problem is, is the rest of the world willing to lower their standard of living considerably to fight Chinas economic domination?
The reason the western world still enjoy such a "booming" economy is because of China, if China shuts us out our economy will plummet and we would have to adapt our lifestyles to that. Also another big reason is that China barely pay their employees to mass produce products that we can buy cheaply here in the western world. Therefore a decent standard of living is possible for quite low cost for ys but that is only possible as long as China lends their cheap workforce to make wares for us.
It is not an exaggeration to state that China is the backbone for our luxurious living, they own us and they know it.
Move the factories out of China to other countries, problem solved.
On October 21 2019 22:07 travis wrote: Unfortunately if someone is posting on any kind of public forum or social media from within China, you can't even trust that it's their real opinion anymore. Anyone in China kinda needs to play the "no, it's actually me that has the most support for our great nation!" game. They are literally being rated on it, and their quality of life depends on it. It's very sad. I hope we can stave off this kind of oppressive system from spreading to the west.
But I am worried we won't able to....
It does kind of feel like people are now recognizing how big China's ambitions are as a whole. What happens next is up for grabs, but if major companies keep sucking on China's cucumber, then it's not going to end well indeed. Are people ok with China dictating the rules for the entire world? The next few years will tell.
The problem is, is the rest of the world willing to lower their standard of living considerably to fight Chinas economic domination?
The reason the western world still enjoy such a "booming" economy is because of China, if China shuts us out our economy will plummet and we would have to adapt our lifestyles to that. Also another big reason is that China barely pay their employees to mass produce products that we can buy cheaply here in the western world. Therefore a decent standard of living is possible for quite low cost for ys but that is only possible as long as China lends their cheap workforce to make wares for us.
It is not an exaggeration to state that China is the backbone for our luxurious living, they own us and they know it.
Move the factories out of China to other countries, problem solved.
All those countries that have the combination of Chinese technical expertise plus a population willing to work for relatively low wages?
On October 21 2019 22:07 travis wrote: Unfortunately if someone is posting on any kind of public forum or social media from within China, you can't even trust that it's their real opinion anymore. Anyone in China kinda needs to play the "no, it's actually me that has the most support for our great nation!" game. They are literally being rated on it, and their quality of life depends on it. It's very sad. I hope we can stave off this kind of oppressive system from spreading to the west.
But I am worried we won't able to....
It does kind of feel like people are now recognizing how big China's ambitions are as a whole. What happens next is up for grabs, but if major companies keep sucking on China's cucumber, then it's not going to end well indeed. Are people ok with China dictating the rules for the entire world? The next few years will tell.
The problem is, is the rest of the world willing to lower their standard of living considerably to fight Chinas economic domination?
The reason the western world still enjoy such a "booming" economy is because of China, if China shuts us out our economy will plummet and we would have to adapt our lifestyles to that. Also another big reason is that China barely pay their employees to mass produce products that we can buy cheaply here in the western world. Therefore a decent standard of living is possible for quite low cost for ys but that is only possible as long as China lends their cheap workforce to make wares for us.
It is not an exaggeration to state that China is the backbone for our luxurious living, they own us and they know it.
Move the factories out of China to other countries, problem solved.
Sure. Move the factories back to Europe/ NA, pay them minimum wage'ish and boom, your next Iphone costs 4000 $
On October 21 2019 22:07 travis wrote: Unfortunately if someone is posting on any kind of public forum or social media from within China, you can't even trust that it's their real opinion anymore. Anyone in China kinda needs to play the "no, it's actually me that has the most support for our great nation!" game. They are literally being rated on it, and their quality of life depends on it. It's very sad. I hope we can stave off this kind of oppressive system from spreading to the west.
But I am worried we won't able to....
It does kind of feel like people are now recognizing how big China's ambitions are as a whole. What happens next is up for grabs, but if major companies keep sucking on China's cucumber, then it's not going to end well indeed. Are people ok with China dictating the rules for the entire world? The next few years will tell.
The problem is, is the rest of the world willing to lower their standard of living considerably to fight Chinas economic domination?
The reason the western world still enjoy such a "booming" economy is because of China, if China shuts us out our economy will plummet and we would have to adapt our lifestyles to that. Also another big reason is that China barely pay their employees to mass produce products that we can buy cheaply here in the western world. Therefore a decent standard of living is possible for quite low cost for ys but that is only possible as long as China lends their cheap workforce to make wares for us.
It is not an exaggeration to state that China is the backbone for our luxurious living, they own us and they know it.
Move the factories out of China to other countries, problem solved.
All those countries that have the combination of Chinese technical expertise plus a population willing to work for relatively low wages?
Technical expertise can be quickly learned and there are plenty of countries with wages lower than China.
On October 21 2019 22:07 travis wrote: Unfortunately if someone is posting on any kind of public forum or social media from within China, you can't even trust that it's their real opinion anymore. Anyone in China kinda needs to play the "no, it's actually me that has the most support for our great nation!" game. They are literally being rated on it, and their quality of life depends on it. It's very sad. I hope we can stave off this kind of oppressive system from spreading to the west.
But I am worried we won't able to....
It does kind of feel like people are now recognizing how big China's ambitions are as a whole. What happens next is up for grabs, but if major companies keep sucking on China's cucumber, then it's not going to end well indeed. Are people ok with China dictating the rules for the entire world? The next few years will tell.
The problem is, is the rest of the world willing to lower their standard of living considerably to fight Chinas economic domination?
The reason the western world still enjoy such a "booming" economy is because of China, if China shuts us out our economy will plummet and we would have to adapt our lifestyles to that. Also another big reason is that China barely pay their employees to mass produce products that we can buy cheaply here in the western world. Therefore a decent standard of living is possible for quite low cost for ys but that is only possible as long as China lends their cheap workforce to make wares for us.
It is not an exaggeration to state that China is the backbone for our luxurious living, they own us and they know it.
Move the factories out of China to other countries, problem solved.
Sure. Move the factories back to Europe/ NA, pay them minimum wage'ish and boom, your next Iphone costs 4000 $
It wouldn't be that much of a markup. In terms of production cost, only a small proportion in cost in in labour. Most of the markup is just Apple getting a significant profit margin and paying off marketing costs. There are loads of technically excellent phones on the same level as or better than Apple's products nowadays, some indeed made in China and owned by Chinese companies, but if Samsung's experience is anything to go by, moving out of China will barely change production costs. But if you can save 5% in production costs, why wouldn't a company do so, assuming no downsides?
As it is, it will be low cost products which would be affected by wage costs, like clothes and plastic manufacturing, but not to the degree that they will cost 4 times less. As it is low value production is being shifted out of China and into places like Vietnam and India, due to rising cost of Chinese labour. But that's simply another matter.
It isn't factories in China which are causing companies to bow down to Chinese political interests, but the Chinese market themselves. Blizzard didn't decide to crack down on blitzchung (who I have no idea if he received his prize money in the end) because Blizzard has factories there, but because the potential of the Chinese market is huge. How should or should other countries be able to enact legislation to prevent the Chinese government from affecting political expression from private companies? Would consumers in other countries be able to do so? As it is, both the NBA and Blizzard decision making seem to see the Chinese market as more important than the western market.
On October 21 2019 00:45 raga4ka wrote: First of all riots were not dying down, they continued even worse if you follow the news there regularly. Second the mask ban is necessary to catch rioters and vandalists and arsonists and to discourage the continuation of this acts... A normal law in many asian countries like Singapore as well as western countries like the US.
The internet lounges and PC Bangs in the worst areas of Toronto all forbid wearing anything that covers one's face including any kind of hood. Very generally speaking, I support a face mask ban.
does Toronto have face recognition cameras installed everywhere which are actively used and is Toronto known to make people disappear and then reappear again dead and naked in the river? If I were in such a place, I'd very much prefer to wear a mask, thank you.
Toronto has a murder rate similar to New York State. In fact, last year Toronto's murder rate was slightly higher than New York City's murder rate.
that's great, but does the Canadian government actually find people who they deem as Uncanadian, and have them disappear?
EDIT: I didn't really mean regular murder rates. I meant more to the extent of there are several cases, just in the past few weeks, where pro-HKG people have disappeared, and then found tortured or dead, and for some reason all of the records of these people being on camera seem to have been lost after a certain point. Which coincidentally is the main reason why the protesters use masks (that, and because it's defense from many of the gasses that the police use). Not wearing your mask can literally be a life-or-death question.
if this is the kind of thing that is actually going on .. then it is a lawless situation of total anarchy where nothing is right and nothing is wrong.
On October 21 2019 22:07 travis wrote: Unfortunately if someone is posting on any kind of public forum or social media from within China, you can't even trust that it's their real opinion anymore. Anyone in China kinda needs to play the "no, it's actually me that has the most support for our great nation!" game. They are literally being rated on it, and their quality of life depends on it. It's very sad. I hope we can stave off this kind of oppressive system from spreading to the west.
But I am worried we won't able to....
It does kind of feel like people are now recognizing how big China's ambitions are as a whole. What happens next is up for grabs, but if major companies keep sucking on China's cucumber, then it's not going to end well indeed. Are people ok with China dictating the rules for the entire world? The next few years will tell.
The problem is, is the rest of the world willing to lower their standard of living considerably to fight Chinas economic domination?
The reason the western world still enjoy such a "booming" economy is because of China, if China shuts us out our economy will plummet and we would have to adapt our lifestyles to that. Also another big reason is that China barely pay their employees to mass produce products that we can buy cheaply here in the western world. Therefore a decent standard of living is possible for quite low cost for ys but that is only possible as long as China lends their cheap workforce to make wares for us.
It is not an exaggeration to state that China is the backbone for our luxurious living, they own us and they know it.
Move the factories out of China to other countries, problem solved.
Sure. Move the factories back to Europe/ NA, pay them minimum wage'ish and boom, your next Iphone costs 4000 $
It wouldn't be that much of a markup. In terms of production cost, only a small proportion in cost in in labour. Most of the markup is just Apple getting a significant profit margin and paying off marketing costs. There are loads of technically excellent phones on the same level as or better than Apple's products nowadays, some indeed made in China and owned by Chinese companies, but if Samsung's experience is anything to go by, moving out of China will barely change production costs. But if you can save 5% in production costs, why wouldn't a company do so, assuming no downsides?
As it is, it will be low cost products which would be affected by wage costs, like clothes and plastic manufacturing, but not to the degree that they will cost 4 times less. As it is low value production is being shifted out of China and into places like Vietnam and India, due to rising cost of Chinese labour. But that's simply another matter.
It isn't factories in China which are causing companies to bow down to Chinese political interests, but the Chinese market themselves. Blizzard didn't decide to crack down on blitzchung (who I have no idea if he received his prize money in the end) because Blizzard has factories there, but because the potential of the Chinese market is huge. How should or should other countries be able to enact legislation to prevent the Chinese government from affecting political expression from private companies? Would consumers in other countries be able to do so? As it is, both the NBA and Blizzard decision making seem to see the Chinese market as more important than the western market.
Sorry but you really don't get the whole picture here, you think the reason China has economic power is only one factor? Nopez, wrong, there are a lot of reasons, the reason blizz in particular want to be friends with China is obviously the market but that is only their reason. Why do countries want to stay on the good side of China? That is mostly because of the cheap items you import from there.
You also miss the whole picture while looking at the example of mobile phones, sure moving the ensembling factory out of China will not make the Iphone for example jump up to 4000 $. BUT where will you get the parts for the iphone that the factory assembles? You really think Iphones just appear out of thin air, nope, you need multiple different raw materials and multiple different factories to produce the parts that can then be assembled. Almost all of this is now done in China for cheap, if you are going to do everyhting from scratch in europe (including mining the minerals) 4000 $ for an Iphone is actually not an unreasonable claim. Such is the terror of Chinas economic power.
Don't know if you missed Trumps proposed tariffs in regards to China, it actually effected technical components which are used in all current gaming consoles. Just because of added tariffs if the proposal would have been enacted a 25% increase in cost of the next playstation console was numbers that were discussed. And then it still would be much cheaper to take the increased cost than to try and produce these parts locally. That factories don't need laborers is a myth but biggest of all is how China is the source of a lot of the worlds raw materials.
For example China currently produce 65% of all the worlds iron, imagine if China would stop trading the rest of the world. The supply/demand from iron would go through the bloody atmosphere. Its not just a case "get it from somewhere else", there is no where else and even if it was China probably already owns that too.
On October 21 2019 22:07 travis wrote: Unfortunately if someone is posting on any kind of public forum or social media from within China, you can't even trust that it's their real opinion anymore. Anyone in China kinda needs to play the "no, it's actually me that has the most support for our great nation!" game. They are literally being rated on it, and their quality of life depends on it. It's very sad. I hope we can stave off this kind of oppressive system from spreading to the west.
But I am worried we won't able to....
It does kind of feel like people are now recognizing how big China's ambitions are as a whole. What happens next is up for grabs, but if major companies keep sucking on China's cucumber, then it's not going to end well indeed. Are people ok with China dictating the rules for the entire world? The next few years will tell.
The problem is, is the rest of the world willing to lower their standard of living considerably to fight Chinas economic domination?
The reason the western world still enjoy such a "booming" economy is because of China, if China shuts us out our economy will plummet and we would have to adapt our lifestyles to that. Also another big reason is that China barely pay their employees to mass produce products that we can buy cheaply here in the western world. Therefore a decent standard of living is possible for quite low cost for ys but that is only possible as long as China lends their cheap workforce to make wares for us.
It is not an exaggeration to state that China is the backbone for our luxurious living, they own us and they know it.
Move the factories out of China to other countries, problem solved.
Sure. Move the factories back to Europe/ NA, pay them minimum wage'ish and boom, your next Iphone costs 4000 $
It wouldn't be that much of a markup. In terms of production cost, only a small proportion in cost in in labour. Most of the markup is just Apple getting a significant profit margin and paying off marketing costs. There are loads of technically excellent phones on the same level as or better than Apple's products nowadays, some indeed made in China and owned by Chinese companies, but if Samsung's experience is anything to go by, moving out of China will barely change production costs. But if you can save 5% in production costs, why wouldn't a company do so, assuming no downsides?
As it is, it will be low cost products which would be affected by wage costs, like clothes and plastic manufacturing, but not to the degree that they will cost 4 times less. As it is low value production is being shifted out of China and into places like Vietnam and India, due to rising cost of Chinese labour. But that's simply another matter.
It isn't factories in China which are causing companies to bow down to Chinese political interests, but the Chinese market themselves. Blizzard didn't decide to crack down on blitzchung (who I have no idea if he received his prize money in the end) because Blizzard has factories there, but because the potential of the Chinese market is huge. How should or should other countries be able to enact legislation to prevent the Chinese government from affecting political expression from private companies? Would consumers in other countries be able to do so? As it is, both the NBA and Blizzard decision making seem to see the Chinese market as more important than the western market.
Sorry but you really don't get the whole picture here, you think the reason China has economic power is only one factor? Nopez, wrong, there are a lot of reasons, the reason blizz in particular want to be friends with China is obviously the market but that is only their reason. Why do countries want to stay on the good side of China? That is mostly because of the cheap items you import from there.
You also miss the whole picture while looking at the example of mobile phones, sure moving the ensembling factory out of China will not make the Iphone for example jump up to 4000 $. BUT where will you get the parts for the iphone that the factory assembles? You really think Iphones just appear out of thin air, nope, you need multiple different raw materials and multiple different factories to produce the parts that can then be assembled. Almost all of this is now done in China for cheap, if you are going to do everyhting from scratch in europe (including mining the minerals) 4000 $ for an Iphone is actually not an unreasonable claim. Such is the terror of Chinas economic power.
Don't know if you missed Trumps proposed tariffs in regards to China, it actually effected technical components which are used in all current gaming consoles. Just because of added tariffs if the proposal would have been enacted a 25% increase in cost of the next playstation console was numbers that were discussed. And then it still would be much cheaper to take the increased cost than to try and produce these parts locally. That factories don't need laborers is a myth but biggest of all is how China is the source of a lot of the worlds raw materials.
For example China currently produce 65% of all the worlds iron, imagine if China would stop trading the rest of the world. The supply/demand from iron would go through the bloody atmosphere. Its not just a case "get it from somewhere else", there is no where else and even if it was China probably already owns that too.
Either way it is better for the west to pull out of China then staying in.
On October 15 2019 11:42 zenist wrote: Regarding HK protest, it has been proven that many Chinese police have disguised themselves as protesters to conduct violence.
Regardless of violence though, you can't blame HKers for protesting because carrie lam (controlled by the communist party) made stupid move of barring masks. The movement was dying down after completely getting rid of the extradition bill.
This is a false statement, China doesn't gain anything by prolonging violence in Hong Kong and benefits only if Hong Kong moves on from the violence.
First of all riots were not dying down, they continued even worse if you follow the news there regularly. Second the mask ban is necessary to catch rioters and vandalists and arsonists and to discourage the continuation of this acts... A normal law in many asian countries like Singapore as well as western countries like the US.
I don't blame peaceful protesters, but I hope everyone who committed violence there would be dealt with the full extent of the law. I just can't support violence and vandalism:
how the hell is it a "false statement"? There's tons of evidence out there. Yes China does gain anything by prolonging violence in HK. The worse the situation gets, the more reason they are to interefere in a more serious, military capacity. If China is successful in making the world see this as "HK people are the ones who are violent, and they are a danger to themselves, we're moving in to ensure HK's safety" then it's precisely the best possible outcome for China. There will never be any demonstrations or riots again. HK will be done.
Stop exaggerating, you are taking an overly conspiratorial view of China's strategy. This will not be the last riot and there will be plenty more riots in the future, even after 2047 when HK autonomy ends. China is a country where over 100k protest (government acknowledge number btw, real number is higher) occur each year over government corruption or social justice issues.
The only reason HK can protest is exactly because they're not part of China. These aren't conspiracy theories, these things have and will happen. Just because you choose to stick your head in the dirt doesn't make it less true.
China is looking for excuses to send in the military, and to that end it benefits them greatly that the protests turn violent. You have to be unrealistically naive to believe otherwise from a government who runs concentration camps, harvest organs, kills politicians and regular people who voices their opinions against the current government, who runs a dystopian nation wide facial recognition system in pure 1984 fashion, and who runs their own people over with tanks and dumptrucks when they protest.
100k protests a year? Based on whose numbers? Even Chinese mainlanders who supports their government haven't attempted to pretend they can speak up against their own government.
Highly unlikely at this point in time. China most of all cares about it's economical growth. With trade war at it's peak it won't attempt to do anything controversial. Even the Hong Kong government which is pro China aren't hinting at asking Beijing to interfere and are thinking that it won't come to it:
"Hong Kong finance chief Paul Chan said it was unlikely Beijing would sent forces from mainland China to end Hong Kong’s pro-democracy movement. Photo: Winson Wong"
China does care a huge part about their economical growth. But that's not the only thing they care about. Paying the world back for their "ultimate humiliation" is by far the most important thing it seems, economical growth is just the best way to make it happen. Also lol at the quote and article - Paul Chen must be the one deciding these matters.
EDIT: How can you even think that China won't do anything controversial? Literally everything that is happening with Blitzchung, NBA, and all the other pressure China is doing. All of it is controversial. China doesn't have a problem with doing anything controversial, they just care about it being done in a way where people don't know they're involved.
Territorial integrity and economical growth are the only 2 things that China really cares about, and will defend them by any means necessary. There is no master plan to humiliate the world for it's century of humiliation I don't know where people get that. China would sanction anyone supporting Hong Kong's autonomy, because it directly interferes with their interests, but it won't resort to escalating the situation with the army, because it doesn't need to. The rioters are not in a position to topple the Hong Kong government, Hong Kong is economically stable as the article I posted in my above post, the only step is for the police to take control of the situation by themselves.
You seem so very sure about knowing everything about how everyone thinks.
The protests matter in HK because it is a democracy, even if the people won't take matters in their own hands practically and do a full blown coup the stone is rolling to change the leadership in HK. If China won't allow for democracy in HK maybe other nations will intercede like the U.S. Either way the protest actually are in a position to make huge sweeping changes as soon as they receive their ballots. China could stop that though, if they get good enough of an excuse to intervene with their military.
These matters are complex and its impossible for us "normal" people to know what is really going on behind the scenes.
I'm just following the situation closely from media sources, nothing so far indicates that China will use the military to interfere I can't tell what is going on behind the scenes.
On October 15 2019 11:42 zenist wrote: Regarding HK protest, it has been proven that many Chinese police have disguised themselves as protesters to conduct violence.
Regardless of violence though, you can't blame HKers for protesting because carrie lam (controlled by the communist party) made stupid move of barring masks. The movement was dying down after completely getting rid of the extradition bill.
This is a false statement, China doesn't gain anything by prolonging violence in Hong Kong and benefits only if Hong Kong moves on from the violence.
First of all riots were not dying down, they continued even worse if you follow the news there regularly. Second the mask ban is necessary to catch rioters and vandalists and arsonists and to discourage the continuation of this acts... A normal law in many asian countries like Singapore as well as western countries like the US.
I don't blame peaceful protesters, but I hope everyone who committed violence there would be dealt with the full extent of the law. I just can't support violence and vandalism:
how the hell is it a "false statement"? There's tons of evidence out there. Yes China does gain anything by prolonging violence in HK. The worse the situation gets, the more reason they are to interefere in a more serious, military capacity. If China is successful in making the world see this as "HK people are the ones who are violent, and they are a danger to themselves, we're moving in to ensure HK's safety" then it's precisely the best possible outcome for China. There will never be any demonstrations or riots again. HK will be done.
Stop exaggerating, you are taking an overly conspiratorial view of China's strategy. This will not be the last riot and there will be plenty more riots in the future, even after 2047 when HK autonomy ends. China is a country where over 100k protest (government acknowledge number btw, real number is higher) occur each year over government corruption or social justice issues.
The only reason HK can protest is exactly because they're not part of China. These aren't conspiracy theories, these things have and will happen. Just because you choose to stick your head in the dirt doesn't make it less true.
China is looking for excuses to send in the military, and to that end it benefits them greatly that the protests turn violent. You have to be unrealistically naive to believe otherwise from a government who runs concentration camps, harvest organs, kills politicians and regular people who voices their opinions against the current government, who runs a dystopian nation wide facial recognition system in pure 1984 fashion, and who runs their own people over with tanks and dumptrucks when they protest.
100k protests a year? Based on whose numbers? Even Chinese mainlanders who supports their government haven't attempted to pretend they can speak up against their own government.
Highly unlikely at this point in time. China most of all cares about it's economical growth. With trade war at it's peak it won't attempt to do anything controversial. Even the Hong Kong government which is pro China aren't hinting at asking Beijing to interfere and are thinking that it won't come to it:
"Hong Kong finance chief Paul Chan said it was unlikely Beijing would sent forces from mainland China to end Hong Kong’s pro-democracy movement. Photo: Winson Wong"
China does care a huge part about their economical growth. But that's not the only thing they care about. Paying the world back for their "ultimate humiliation" is by far the most important thing it seems, economical growth is just the best way to make it happen. Also lol at the quote and article - Paul Chen must be the one deciding these matters.
EDIT: How can you even think that China won't do anything controversial? Literally everything that is happening with Blitzchung, NBA, and all the other pressure China is doing. All of it is controversial. China doesn't have a problem with doing anything controversial, they just care about it being done in a way where people don't know they're involved.
Territorial integrity and economical growth are the only 2 things that China really cares about, and will defend them by any means necessary. There is no master plan to humiliate the world for it's century of humiliation I don't know where people get that. China would sanction anyone supporting Hong Kong's autonomy, because it directly interferes with their interests, but it won't resort to escalating the situation with the army, because it doesn't need to. The rioters are not in a position to topple the Hong Kong government, Hong Kong is economically stable as the article I posted in my above post, the only step is for the police to take control of the situation by themselves.
It certainly comes up a lot as a talking point when Chinese posters appear on threads such as this or elsewhere.
Of course it doesn’t necessarily follow that the corridors of power are motivated by such sentiments. It could very well be the case that territorial integrity and economic growth are the sole motivators there, but the ‘avenging humiliation’ angle being quite useful to drum up support.
It was raga4ka in the first place that brought up "century of humiliation" here, an entirely PRC concept pushed by the PRC, as a reason to oppose the protests in Hong Kong. Until then it was never mentioned, an unknown concept to this forum
Funny how now that he says PRC doesn't care about it, when it so obviously does as part of its national mythmaking just so it can, successfully in raga4ka's case, to persuade people to their line of thinking.
I was saying that China doesn't want to take revenge on the world, which sounds stupid, they do feel offended when someone mentions that they support separation of Hong Kong from China. Just read the statement of the Chinese NBA manager, but not all the reasonings are listed.
On October 15 2019 11:42 zenist wrote: Regarding HK protest, it has been proven that many Chinese police have disguised themselves as protesters to conduct violence.
Regardless of violence though, you can't blame HKers for protesting because carrie lam (controlled by the communist party) made stupid move of barring masks. The movement was dying down after completely getting rid of the extradition bill.
This is a false statement, China doesn't gain anything by prolonging violence in Hong Kong and benefits only if Hong Kong moves on from the violence.
First of all riots were not dying down, they continued even worse if you follow the news there regularly. Second the mask ban is necessary to catch rioters and vandalists and arsonists and to discourage the continuation of this acts... A normal law in many asian countries like Singapore as well as western countries like the US.
I don't blame peaceful protesters, but I hope everyone who committed violence there would be dealt with the full extent of the law. I just can't support violence and vandalism:
how the hell is it a "false statement"? There's tons of evidence out there. Yes China does gain anything by prolonging violence in HK. The worse the situation gets, the more reason they are to interefere in a more serious, military capacity. If China is successful in making the world see this as "HK people are the ones who are violent, and they are a danger to themselves, we're moving in to ensure HK's safety" then it's precisely the best possible outcome for China. There will never be any demonstrations or riots again. HK will be done.
Stop exaggerating, you are taking an overly conspiratorial view of China's strategy. This will not be the last riot and there will be plenty more riots in the future, even after 2047 when HK autonomy ends. China is a country where over 100k protest (government acknowledge number btw, real number is higher) occur each year over government corruption or social justice issues.
The only reason HK can protest is exactly because they're not part of China. These aren't conspiracy theories, these things have and will happen. Just because you choose to stick your head in the dirt doesn't make it less true.
China is looking for excuses to send in the military, and to that end it benefits them greatly that the protests turn violent. You have to be unrealistically naive to believe otherwise from a government who runs concentration camps, harvest organs, kills politicians and regular people who voices their opinions against the current government, who runs a dystopian nation wide facial recognition system in pure 1984 fashion, and who runs their own people over with tanks and dumptrucks when they protest.
100k protests a year? Based on whose numbers? Even Chinese mainlanders who supports their government haven't attempted to pretend they can speak up against their own government.
Highly unlikely at this point in time. China most of all cares about it's economical growth. With trade war at it's peak it won't attempt to do anything controversial. Even the Hong Kong government which is pro China aren't hinting at asking Beijing to interfere and are thinking that it won't come to it:
"Hong Kong finance chief Paul Chan said it was unlikely Beijing would sent forces from mainland China to end Hong Kong’s pro-democracy movement. Photo: Winson Wong"
China does care a huge part about their economical growth. But that's not the only thing they care about. Paying the world back for their "ultimate humiliation" is by far the most important thing it seems, economical growth is just the best way to make it happen. Also lol at the quote and article - Paul Chen must be the one deciding these matters.
EDIT: How can you even think that China won't do anything controversial? Literally everything that is happening with Blitzchung, NBA, and all the other pressure China is doing. All of it is controversial. China doesn't have a problem with doing anything controversial, they just care about it being done in a way where people don't know they're involved.
Territorial integrity and economical growth are the only 2 things that China really cares about, and will defend them by any means necessary. There is no master plan to humiliate the world for it's century of humiliation I don't know where people get that. China would sanction anyone supporting Hong Kong's autonomy, because it directly interferes with their interests, but it won't resort to escalating the situation with the army, because it doesn't need to. The rioters are not in a position to topple the Hong Kong government, Hong Kong is economically stable as the article I posted in my above post, the only step is for the police to take control of the situation by themselves.
You seem so very sure about knowing everything about how everyone thinks.
The protests matter in HK because it is a democracy, even if the people won't take matters in their own hands practically and do a full blown coup the stone is rolling to change the leadership in HK. If China won't allow for democracy in HK maybe other nations will intercede like the U.S. Either way the protest actually are in a position to make huge sweeping changes as soon as they receive their ballots. China could stop that though, if they get good enough of an excuse to intervene with their military.
These matters are complex and its impossible for us "normal" people to know what is really going on behind the scenes.
I'm just following the situation closely from media sources, nothing so far indicates that China will use the military to interfere I can't tell what it's going behind the scenes.
This is a false statement, China doesn't gain anything by prolonging violence in Hong Kong and benefits only if Hong Kong moves on from the violence.
First of all riots were not dying down, they continued even worse if you follow the news there regularly. Second the mask ban is necessary to catch rioters and vandalists and arsonists and to discourage the continuation of this acts... A normal law in many asian countries like Singapore as well as western countries like the US.
I don't blame peaceful protesters, but I hope everyone who committed violence there would be dealt with the full extent of the law. I just can't support violence and vandalism:
how the hell is it a "false statement"? There's tons of evidence out there. Yes China does gain anything by prolonging violence in HK. The worse the situation gets, the more reason they are to interefere in a more serious, military capacity. If China is successful in making the world see this as "HK people are the ones who are violent, and they are a danger to themselves, we're moving in to ensure HK's safety" then it's precisely the best possible outcome for China. There will never be any demonstrations or riots again. HK will be done.
Stop exaggerating, you are taking an overly conspiratorial view of China's strategy. This will not be the last riot and there will be plenty more riots in the future, even after 2047 when HK autonomy ends. China is a country where over 100k protest (government acknowledge number btw, real number is higher) occur each year over government corruption or social justice issues.
The only reason HK can protest is exactly because they're not part of China. These aren't conspiracy theories, these things have and will happen. Just because you choose to stick your head in the dirt doesn't make it less true.
China is looking for excuses to send in the military, and to that end it benefits them greatly that the protests turn violent. You have to be unrealistically naive to believe otherwise from a government who runs concentration camps, harvest organs, kills politicians and regular people who voices their opinions against the current government, who runs a dystopian nation wide facial recognition system in pure 1984 fashion, and who runs their own people over with tanks and dumptrucks when they protest.
100k protests a year? Based on whose numbers? Even Chinese mainlanders who supports their government haven't attempted to pretend they can speak up against their own government.
Highly unlikely at this point in time. China most of all cares about it's economical growth. With trade war at it's peak it won't attempt to do anything controversial. Even the Hong Kong government which is pro China aren't hinting at asking Beijing to interfere and are thinking that it won't come to it:
"Hong Kong finance chief Paul Chan said it was unlikely Beijing would sent forces from mainland China to end Hong Kong’s pro-democracy movement. Photo: Winson Wong"
China does care a huge part about their economical growth. But that's not the only thing they care about. Paying the world back for their "ultimate humiliation" is by far the most important thing it seems, economical growth is just the best way to make it happen. Also lol at the quote and article - Paul Chen must be the one deciding these matters.
EDIT: How can you even think that China won't do anything controversial? Literally everything that is happening with Blitzchung, NBA, and all the other pressure China is doing. All of it is controversial. China doesn't have a problem with doing anything controversial, they just care about it being done in a way where people don't know they're involved.
Territorial integrity and economical growth are the only 2 things that China really cares about, and will defend them by any means necessary. There is no master plan to humiliate the world for it's century of humiliation I don't know where people get that. China would sanction anyone supporting Hong Kong's autonomy, because it directly interferes with their interests, but it won't resort to escalating the situation with the army, because it doesn't need to. The rioters are not in a position to topple the Hong Kong government, Hong Kong is economically stable as the article I posted in my above post, the only step is for the police to take control of the situation by themselves.
It certainly comes up a lot as a talking point when Chinese posters appear on threads such as this or elsewhere.
Of course it doesn’t necessarily follow that the corridors of power are motivated by such sentiments. It could very well be the case that territorial integrity and economic growth are the sole motivators there, but the ‘avenging humiliation’ angle being quite useful to drum up support.
It was raga4ka in the first place that brought up "century of humiliation" here, an entirely PRC concept pushed by the PRC, as a reason to oppose the protests in Hong Kong. Until then it was never mentioned, an unknown concept to this forum
Funny how now that he says PRC doesn't care about it, when it so obviously does as part of its national mythmaking just so it can, successfully in raga4ka's case, to persuade people to their line of thinking.
I was saying that China doesn't want to take revenge on the world, which sounds stupid, they do feel offended when someone mentions that they support separation of Hong Kong from China. Just read the statement of the Chinese NBA manager, but not all the reasonings are listed.
There were literally videos of PLA soldiers switching shifts in and out of Shenzhen.
Given the historical context of Hong Kong and the national sentiment of China I actually think it's perfectly resonable for them to be upset when people on the outside support separation. Lets not forget how and under what circumstances the British acquired HK. Chinese people have a long memory. Actual interference from the US or UK would likely be received extremely poorly and be counter productive as a whole.
On October 22 2019 04:44 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: Given the historical context of Hong Kong and the national sentiment of China I actually think it's perfectly resonable for them to be upset when people on the outside support separation. Lets not forget how and under what circumstances the British acquired HK. Chinese people have a long memory. Actual interference from the US or UK would likely be received extremely poorly and be counter productive as a whole.
Going off this hackneyed “historical” take, Taiwan would have a better claim to HK than mainland China.
On October 22 2019 04:44 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: Given the historical context of Hong Kong and the national sentiment of China I actually think it's perfectly resonable for them to be upset when people on the outside support separation. Lets not forget how and under what circumstances the British acquired HK. Chinese people have a long memory. Actual interference from the US or UK would likely be received extremely poorly and be counter productive as a whole.
Counter productive for whom? HK has been enjoying free speech and democracy and now live with a timer until those freedoms will be taken away. While at the same time it seems the dictator doesn't even respect the timer in the first place.
HK is without an army and officially a part of China, without foreign powers interceding on their behalf HK is doomed. HK need help to protect and/or extend the timer at the very least, no matter how much they protest or riot they cannot do it themselves all they can do is ask for help and pull attention to themselves.
Better not help since helping could be counterproductive is the laziest way of saying you are too lazy to care. Worst excuse ever.
I live in a free country, I can't even imagine the terror of knowing that my freedom of speech and democratic voice is being slowly derived of meaning and would ultimately be taken away from me.
On October 22 2019 04:44 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: Given the historical context of Hong Kong and the national sentiment of China I actually think it's perfectly resonable for them to be upset when people on the outside support separation. Lets not forget how and under what circumstances the British acquired HK. Chinese people have a long memory. Actual interference from the US or UK would likely be received extremely poorly and be counter productive as a whole.
Counter productive for whom? HK has been enjoying free speech and democracy and now live with a timer until those freedoms will be taken away. While at the same time it seems the dictator doesn't even respect the timer in the first place.
HK is without an army and officially a part of China, without foreign powers interceding on their behalf HK is doomed. HK need help to protect and/or extend the timer at the very least, no matter how much they protest or riot they cannot do it themselves all they can do is ask for help and pull attention to themselves.
Better not help since helping could be counterproductive is the laziest way of saying you are too lazy to care. Worst excuse ever.
I live in a free country, I can't even imagine the terror of knowing that my freedom of speech and democratic voice is being slowly derived of meaning and would ultimately be taken away from me.
The backstory of the whole situation is that the west (UK/US) were trading with China. But the west had nothing the Chinese wanted and demanded payment in silver. To counteract this the British started selling opium to China starting a pandemic of drug use. The Chinese tried to stop it and the British declared war on them and stomped them into the ground, because they didn't want to get feed drugs. Later on the US also stomped the Chinese. During these wars the UK first annexed parts of HK and finally forced the Chinese to agree to a "lease" for the rest of what is now HK for 100 years. Quite clearly the west were the baddies in this scenario.
Understandably the citizens of HK, having lived under British rule for 156 years, are used to democracy and their own ideology. But HK is quite clearly Chinese. I think it's commendable to take a stand for what you believe in and how you want your future to be. I also think that China is not out to repay "a century of humiliation". But I don't think that means they haven't forgotten or that their efforts to become a superpower doesn't have a strong purpose of never becoming the victim again.
So if you look at it from the Chinese perspective with their history, specifically about HK, and their general feelings on involvement in political affairs I think other (western) power interceding on HK's behalf would be taken very, very badly. As bad as it is right now China knows that the rest of the world (and their own population) is watching. But if you decide to make it "personal"... Want to bet that China is up for a diplomatic/economic version of the Opium Wars version III and are willing to cede HK? Not a bet I would like.
And yes, I think this means that HK is probably "doomed" in the long run. But honestly it's a global world and as harsh as it is if you want to live in the UK you can move away from China.
On October 21 2019 22:07 travis wrote: Unfortunately if someone is posting on any kind of public forum or social media from within China, you can't even trust that it's their real opinion anymore. Anyone in China kinda needs to play the "no, it's actually me that has the most support for our great nation!" game. They are literally being rated on it, and their quality of life depends on it. It's very sad. I hope we can stave off this kind of oppressive system from spreading to the west.
But I am worried we won't able to....
It does kind of feel like people are now recognizing how big China's ambitions are as a whole. What happens next is up for grabs, but if major companies keep sucking on China's cucumber, then it's not going to end well indeed. Are people ok with China dictating the rules for the entire world? The next few years will tell.
The problem is, is the rest of the world willing to lower their standard of living considerably to fight Chinas economic domination?
The reason the western world still enjoy such a "booming" economy is because of China, if China shuts us out our economy will plummet and we would have to adapt our lifestyles to that. Also another big reason is that China barely pay their employees to mass produce products that we can buy cheaply here in the western world. Therefore a decent standard of living is possible for quite low cost for ys but that is only possible as long as China lends their cheap workforce to make wares for us.
It is not an exaggeration to state that China is the backbone for our luxurious living, they own us and they know it.
Move the factories out of China to other countries, problem solved.
All those countries that have the combination of Chinese technical expertise plus a population willing to work for relatively low wages?
fun things but factories are moving out of china to the south (and/or deeper in china) where the population will work for lower wages The dependancy on china is an illusion I've also seen a comment earlier on the 100k protests that happen every year in china, let me clarify something those protests are usually aiming to remove a low ranking official for corruptions There are no protests against the CPC itself
Only a few more days until a great number of people definitely get kicked out of Blizzcon! Free Hong Kong! To those of you intending to protest at Blizzcon, god speed! Make a mess on my behalf!
I’m prob out of step with where this conversation is at but it’ll be interesting to see how Blizz treats the next political statement made by a player. Say if someone made a statement about the treatment of black people in the US by the police, is Blizz going to stick by their convictions and ban them? Will be interesting.
First sponsor to pull out of a hearthstone tournament
Blizzard lost a big sponsor after the Hong Kong outcry: Mitsubishi
Blizzard Entertainment may be feeling the effects of its controversial ban of Hong Kong Hearthstone player Ng “Blitzchung” Wai Chung for quite some time. The company not only faced a widespread player boycott, condemnations from US lawmakers, and numerous employee walkouts over the decision, but it also lost a key sponsor of its international gaming competitions.
According to The Daily Beast, Mitsubishi decided to pull sponsorships of Blizzard e-sports events after the company banned Wai Chung for voicing support for the Hong Kong protesters in a televised post-game interview earlier this month. Reddit users first noticed the disappearance of the Mitsubishi logo during a recent Asia Pacific Hearthstone tournament, and the company confirmed its decision to pull its sponsorship to The Daily Beast.
Blizzard lost a big sponsor after the Hong Kong outcry: Mitsubishi
Blizzard Entertainment may be feeling the effects of its controversial ban of Hong Kong Hearthstone player Ng “Blitzchung” Wai Chung for quite some time. The company not only faced a widespread player boycott, condemnations from US lawmakers, and numerous employee walkouts over the decision, but it also lost a key sponsor of its international gaming competitions.
According to The Daily Beast, Mitsubishi decided to pull sponsorships of Blizzard e-sports events after the company banned Wai Chung for voicing support for the Hong Kong protesters in a televised post-game interview earlier this month. Reddit users first noticed the disappearance of the Mitsubishi logo during a recent Asia Pacific Hearthstone tournament, and the company confirmed its decision to pull its sponsorship to The Daily Beast.
On October 30 2019 13:40 CorsairHero wrote: First sponsor to pull out of a hearthstone tournament
Blizzard lost a big sponsor after the Hong Kong outcry: Mitsubishi
Blizzard Entertainment may be feeling the effects of its controversial ban of Hong Kong Hearthstone player Ng “Blitzchung” Wai Chung for quite some time. The company not only faced a widespread player boycott, condemnations from US lawmakers, and numerous employee walkouts over the decision, but it also lost a key sponsor of its international gaming competitions.
According to The Daily Beast, Mitsubishi decided to pull sponsorships of Blizzard e-sports events after the company banned Wai Chung for voicing support for the Hong Kong protesters in a televised post-game interview earlier this month. Reddit users first noticed the disappearance of the Mitsubishi logo during a recent Asia Pacific Hearthstone tournament, and the company confirmed its decision to pull its sponsorship to The Daily Beast.
At least there is a silver lining, Blizz are one of the few things in history of the US that managed to unify both democrats and republicans to have a common stance; they both condemn blizzards actions lol.
On October 22 2019 04:44 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: Given the historical context of Hong Kong and the national sentiment of China I actually think it's perfectly resonable for them to be upset when people on the outside support separation. Lets not forget how and under what circumstances the British acquired HK. Chinese people have a long memory. Actual interference from the US or UK would likely be received extremely poorly and be counter productive as a whole.
Counter productive for whom? HK has been enjoying free speech and democracy and now live with a timer until those freedoms will be taken away. While at the same time it seems the dictator doesn't even respect the timer in the first place.
HK is without an army and officially a part of China, without foreign powers interceding on their behalf HK is doomed. HK need help to protect and/or extend the timer at the very least, no matter how much they protest or riot they cannot do it themselves all they can do is ask for help and pull attention to themselves.
Better not help since helping could be counterproductive is the laziest way of saying you are too lazy to care. Worst excuse ever.
I live in a free country, I can't even imagine the terror of knowing that my freedom of speech and democratic voice is being slowly derived of meaning and would ultimately be taken away from me.
The backstory of the whole situation is that the west (UK/US) were trading with China. But the west had nothing the Chinese wanted and demanded payment in silver. To counteract this the British started selling opium to China starting a pandemic of drug use. The Chinese tried to stop it and the British declared war on them and stomped them into the ground, because they didn't want to get feed drugs. Later on the US also stomped the Chinese. During these wars the UK first annexed parts of HK and finally forced the Chinese to agree to a "lease" for the rest of what is now HK for 100 years. Quite clearly the west were the baddies in this scenario.
Understandably the citizens of HK, having lived under British rule for 156 years, are used to democracy and their own ideology. But HK is quite clearly Chinese. I think it's commendable to take a stand for what you believe in and how you want your future to be. I also think that China is not out to repay "a century of humiliation". But I don't think that means they haven't forgotten or that their efforts to become a superpower doesn't have a strong purpose of never becoming the victim again.
So if you look at it from the Chinese perspective with their history, specifically about HK, and their general feelings on involvement in political affairs I think other (western) power interceding on HK's behalf would be taken very, very badly. As bad as it is right now China knows that the rest of the world (and their own population) is watching. But if you decide to make it "personal"... Want to bet that China is up for a diplomatic/economic version of the Opium Wars version III and are willing to cede HK? Not a bet I would like.
And yes, I think this means that HK is probably "doomed" in the long run. But honestly it's a global world and as harsh as it is if you want to live in the UK you can move away from China.
Apparently people of Hong Kong don't get a say because they just simply belong to China according to you. Nice. And no, they can't just become British citizens. That stopped a long time ago in 1997. Not that foreign citizenship stops the PRC government from abducting people from outside of China if it suits them anyways.
Only one important organization in the esports industry was started in Hearthstone. It's also truly the only one that has hard committed to it, put Hearthstone on a central position in its space.
As of today, Blitzchung now plays for Tempo Storm.
On November 01 2019 07:37 Circumstance wrote: Only one important organization in the esports industry was started in Hearthstone. It's also truly the only one that has hard committed to it, put Hearthstone on a central position in its space.
As of today, Blitzchung now plays for Tempo Storm.
This seems like very poor english from someone from the US. I have no idea what you tried to say in that first paragraph. Is Tempo Storm the only important organization in the esports industry, because they're comitted to..hard? Or hard comitted to HS, and that somehow makes them the only important organization in esports..?
On November 01 2019 07:37 Circumstance wrote: Only one important organization in the esports industry was started in Hearthstone. It's also truly the only one that has hard committed to it, put Hearthstone on a central position in its space.
As of today, Blitzchung now plays for Tempo Storm.
This seems like very poor english from someone from the US. I have no idea what you tried to say in that first paragraph. Is Tempo Storm the only important organization in the esports industry, because they're comitted to..hard? Or hard comitted to HS, and that somehow makes them the only important organization in esports..?
No other important organization in the industry was founded from Hearthstone, and no other important organization in the industry has made a hard commitment to Hearthstone/made it central to their brand identity. They're not the only important organization, they're the only one that can be described in this way.
On November 11 2019 23:45 abuse wrote: Police openly shooting at protestors now.
dude you do not know a little bit about CPC . If they want use gunfire, the riots or you called protests wil be cleaned completely, one time for all. The truth is riots are attacking all Mainlanders including University students and a Japanese who is thought to be Mainlander.And they use gasoline and firelighter to burn a HK citizen having different opinions with their behavior. You call them freedom fighters ?
On November 11 2019 23:45 abuse wrote: Police openly shooting at protestors now.
dude you do not know a little bit about CPC . If they want use gunfire, the riots or you called protests wil be cleaned completely, one time for all. The truth is riots are attacking all Mainlanders including University students and a Japanese who is thought to be Mainlander.And they use gasoline and firelighter to burn a HK citizen having different opinions with their behavior. You call them freedom fighters ?
They want freedom, and they are fighting for it. I think that makes them, literally, freedom fighters.
On November 11 2019 23:45 abuse wrote: Police openly shooting at protestors now.
dude you do not know a little bit about CPC . If they want use gunfire, the riots or you called protests wil be cleaned completely, one time for all. The truth is riots are attacking all Mainlanders including University students and a Japanese who is thought to be Mainlander.And they use gasoline and firelighter to burn a HK citizen having different opinions with their behavior. You call them freedom fighters ?
They want freedom, and they are fighting for it. I think that makes them, literally, freedom fighters.
Considering HK's suffocating inequality, they'd have to be anti-capitalist to be freedom fighters imo.
On November 11 2019 23:45 abuse wrote: Police openly shooting at protestors now.
dude you do not know a little bit about CPC . If they want use gunfire, the riots or you called protests wil be cleaned completely, one time for all. The truth is riots are attacking all Mainlanders including University students and a Japanese who is thought to be Mainlander.And they use gasoline and firelighter to burn a HK citizen having different opinions with their behavior. You call them freedom fighters ?
They want freedom, and they are fighting for it. I think that makes them, literally, freedom fighters.
Considering HK's suffocating inequality, they'd have to be anti-capitalist to be freedom fighters imo.
You don't have to be anti-capitalist to be anti inequality. HK's, somehow worse then san Deigo, the housing situation is a result of a lack of residentially zoned land due to a myriad of local issues. Whenever they deign to open up new land for housing they auction it off for the government's benefit.
But sure a communist revolution is going to take place in a communist nation, that makes sense.
On November 11 2019 23:45 abuse wrote: Police openly shooting at protestors now.
dude you do not know a little bit about CPC . If they want use gunfire, the riots or you called protests wil be cleaned completely, one time for all. The truth is riots are attacking all Mainlanders including University students and a Japanese who is thought to be Mainlander.And they use gasoline and firelighter to burn a HK citizen having different opinions with their behavior. You call them freedom fighters ?
They want freedom, and they are fighting for it. I think that makes them, literally, freedom fighters.
how about ISIS? They fight for their "freedom"？with freedom in mouth they can do everything including this ? Today 7 railway lines are down .so How about the people want to take the railway to their job? how about their freedom?
On November 11 2019 23:45 abuse wrote: Police openly shooting at protestors now.
dude you do not know a little bit about CPC . If they want use gunfire, the riots or you called protests wil be cleaned completely, one time for all. The truth is riots are attacking all Mainlanders including University students and a Japanese who is thought to be Mainlander.And they use gasoline and firelighter to burn a HK citizen having different opinions with their behavior. You call them freedom fighters ?
They want freedom, and they are fighting for it. I think that makes them, literally, freedom fighters.
how about ISIS? They fight for their "freedom"？with freedom in mouth they can do everything including this ? Today 7 railway lines are down .so How about the people want to take the railway to their job? how about their freedom?
Everything you say is absurd. Also, having some railway lines down does not limit your freedom, do you know what freedom is? Freedom is what HKG people want, and what all this is happening for.
On November 11 2019 23:45 abuse wrote: Police openly shooting at protestors now.
dude you do not know a little bit about CPC . If they want use gunfire, the riots or you called protests wil be cleaned completely, one time for all. The truth is riots are attacking all Mainlanders including University students and a Japanese who is thought to be Mainlander.And they use gasoline and firelighter to burn a HK citizen having different opinions with their behavior. You call them freedom fighters ?
I don't know what you're trying to say even. There's video proof of the police shooting people with gunfire.
On November 11 2019 23:45 abuse wrote: Police openly shooting at protestors now.
dude you do not know a little bit about CPC . If they want use gunfire, the riots or you called protests wil be cleaned completely, one time for all. The truth is riots are attacking all Mainlanders including University students and a Japanese who is thought to be Mainlander.And they use gasoline and firelighter to burn a HK citizen having different opinions with their behavior. You call them freedom fighters ?
They want freedom, and they are fighting for it. I think that makes them, literally, freedom fighters.
how about ISIS? They fight for their "freedom"？with freedom in mouth they can do everything including this ? Today 7 railway lines are down .so How about the people want to take the railway to their job? how about their freedom?
I'm sorry people's fight for their human rights is slightly inconvenient for you
On November 11 2019 23:45 abuse wrote: Police openly shooting at protestors now.
dude you do not know a little bit about CPC . If they want use gunfire, the riots or you called protests wil be cleaned completely, one time for all. The truth is riots are attacking all Mainlanders including University students and a Japanese who is thought to be Mainlander.And they use gasoline and firelighter to burn a HK citizen having different opinions with their behavior. You call them freedom fighters ?
They want freedom, and they are fighting for it. I think that makes them, literally, freedom fighters.
how about ISIS? They fight for their "freedom"？with freedom in mouth they can do everything including this ? Today 7 railway lines are down .so How about the people want to take the railway to their job? how about their freedom?
I'm sorry people's fight for their human rights is slightly inconvenient for you
I am sorry ,today most HK people's little tiny hunman rights—right to take a train， is destroyed by your human rights fighters？ do they have human rights？ or only people have same opinion with you stupid ，know nothing and never be to HK or China, have the human rights?
You know what is a human right? Democracy. Freedom of thought and expression, The right to public assembly, The right of no unfair detainment, the right to trial, the right of always being innocent until proven guilty, The right to not be tortured, the right to live, The right to not have your own police fucking shoot you, beat the crap out of you, or rape you while you've been arrested during your right of public assembly.
On November 11 2019 23:45 abuse wrote: Police openly shooting at protestors now.
dude you do not know a little bit about CPC . If they want use gunfire, the riots or you called protests wil be cleaned completely, one time for all. The truth is riots are attacking all Mainlanders including University students and a Japanese who is thought to be Mainlander.And they use gasoline and firelighter to burn a HK citizen having different opinions with their behavior. You call them freedom fighters ?
I don't know what you're trying to say even. There's video proof of the police shooting people with gunfire.
You juest see what you are allowed to see.
So how is the number of dead or injured?
There is also video proof tens of roits were trying to attack 2 poilcemen , caused 1policeman injured, the another one was forced to use his gun to threaten the riots off,to protect his collegue, and finnally there was no fire.
this video can be cutted,make it a story that policman use guns pointing to innocent people.
You may say that is CN government being good at, making fake news to foolish its people. In my opinion many governments are doing this. Even Starcraft II make fun of UNN, Even Trump said something about CNN. Is west media still having no bias?
So think a little bit more about what you see? We CN people use VPN to see what happened outside the "Wall". You guys can do something likely before you speak.
On November 13 2019 16:58 abuse wrote: "the right to take a train" lol.
You know what is a human right? Democracy. Freedom of thought and expression, The right to public assembly, The right of no unfair detainment, the right to trial, the right of always being innocent until proven guilty, The right to not be tortured, the right to live, The right to not have your own police fucking shoot you, beat the crap out of you, or rape you while you've been arrested during your right of public assembly.
make a print of your word ,past on their face ,so they have rights to kill and burn? fxxk off you stupid ,maybe never have enough money to go to China or HK to see what is actully going on.
There's tons of footage of police using excessive force without provocation. Beating a pregnant woman half to death. Shooting and killing protestors when it's 10 policemen vs 2 people, unprovoked.
Literally anyone with a brain can see what's happening. If you actually want to seem like a person who isn't a brainwashed troll, then ask yourself, what happened to have the rioters attack policemen who have guns, while rioters do not have them. Why are HKG protestors still not using guns to fight back? They can, why don't they? Why are they now using bows and arrows instead of assault rifles?
There's plenty of videos which were not cut short, which show a big picture of police doing unspeakable things unprovoked, of people being detained and being tortured to death while in the police station.
On November 13 2019 17:23 abuse wrote: There's tons of footage of police using excessive force without provocation. Beating a pregnant woman half to death. Shooting and killing protestors when it's 10 policemen vs 2 people, unprovoked.
Literally anyone with a brain can see what's happening. If you actually want to seem like a person who isn't a brainwashed troll, then ask yourself, what happened to have the rioters attack policemen who have guns, while rioters do not have them. Why are HKG protestors still not using guns to fight back? They can, why don't they? Why are they now using bows and arrows instead of assault rifles?
There's plenty of videos which were not cut short, which show a big picture of police doing unspeakable things unprovoked, of people being detained and being tortured to death while in the police station.
oh yah! anyway they will fail sooner or later. everyone have a brain can see that . And you can still do your tiny little Lartivia protest against China and this will not change anything
On November 11 2019 23:45 abuse wrote: Police openly shooting at protestors now.
dude you do not know a little bit about CPC . If they want use gunfire, the riots or you called protests wil be cleaned completely, one time for all. The truth is riots are attacking all Mainlanders including University students and a Japanese who is thought to be Mainlander.And they use gasoline and firelighter to burn a HK citizen having different opinions with their behavior. You call them freedom fighters ?
They want freedom, and they are fighting for it. I think that makes them, literally, freedom fighters.
how about ISIS? They fight for their "freedom"？with freedom in mouth they can do everything including this ? Today 7 railway lines are down .so How about the people want to take the railway to their job? how about their freedom?
I'm sorry people's fight for their human rights is slightly inconvenient for you
I am sorry ,today most HK people's little tiny hunman rights—right to take a train， is destroyed by your human rights fighters？ do they have human rights？ or only people have same opinion with you stupid ，know nothing and never be to HK or China, have the human rights?
Hold up. Let me check up on the human rights again.
Hmm, yes, that's what I thought. Nowhere does it state "Freedom of right to take a train". Freedom of opinion and expression is pretty high up on that list though.
On November 13 2019 17:33 spacecoke wrote: I swear I will never buy or play a Blizzard game again.
Democracy matters.
We can buy Volvo, the whole car business. You people are not that clean, you also make trade with evil China.
What makes you think he has a Volvo..?
edit: Meh, the fact is that none of this matters. You are trying to argue that people getting shot by their police for protesting for human rights is somehow less important than some people not being able to take their train to work. The disconnect is mind boggling. You're also refusing to believe that it's happening despite a multitude of videos and pictures available to you if you only bothered to try. At this point you are either willingly ignoring facts for your beliefs and wants, or you are directly involved and attempting to spread slander.
On November 11 2019 23:45 abuse wrote: Police openly shooting at protestors now.
dude you do not know a little bit about CPC . If they want use gunfire, the riots or you called protests wil be cleaned completely, one time for all. The truth is riots are attacking all Mainlanders including University students and a Japanese who is thought to be Mainlander.And they use gasoline and firelighter to burn a HK citizen having different opinions with their behavior. You call them freedom fighters ?
They want freedom, and they are fighting for it. I think that makes them, literally, freedom fighters.
how about ISIS? They fight for their "freedom"？with freedom in mouth they can do everything including this ? Today 7 railway lines are down .so How about the people want to take the railway to their job? how about their freedom?
I'm sorry people's fight for their human rights is slightly inconvenient for you
I am sorry ,today most HK people's little tiny hunman rights—right to take a train， is destroyed by your human rights fighters？ do they have human rights？ or only people have same opinion with you stupid ，know nothing and never be to HK or China, have the human rights?
Hold up. Let me check up on the human rights again.
Hmm, yes, that's what I thought. Nowhere does it state "Freedom of right to take a train". Freedom of opinion and expression is pretty high up on that list though.
On November 11 2019 23:45 abuse wrote: Police openly shooting at protestors now.
dude you do not know a little bit about CPC . If they want use gunfire, the riots or you called protests wil be cleaned completely, one time for all. The truth is riots are attacking all Mainlanders including University students and a Japanese who is thought to be Mainlander.And they use gasoline and firelighter to burn a HK citizen having different opinions with their behavior. You call them freedom fighters ?
They want freedom, and they are fighting for it. I think that makes them, literally, freedom fighters.
how about ISIS? They fight for their "freedom"？with freedom in mouth they can do everything including this ? Today 7 railway lines are down .so How about the people want to take the railway to their job? how about their freedom?
I'm sorry people's fight for their human rights is slightly inconvenient for you
I am sorry ,today most HK people's little tiny hunman rights—right to take a train， is destroyed by your human rights fighters？ do they have human rights？ or only people have same opinion with you stupid ，know nothing and never be to HK or China, have the human rights?
Hold up. Let me check up on the human rights again.
Hmm, yes, that's what I thought. Nowhere does it state "Freedom of right to take a train". Freedom of opinion and expression is pretty high up on that list though.
On November 13 2019 17:33 spacecoke wrote: I swear I will never buy or play a Blizzard game again.
Democracy matters.
We can buy Volvo, the whole car business. You people are not that clean, you also make trade with evil China.
What makes you think he has a Volvo..?
edit: Meh, the fact is that none of this matters. You are trying to argue that people getting shot by their police for protesting for human rights is somehow less important than some people not being able to take their train to work. The disconnect is mind boggling. You're also refusing to believe that it's happening despite a multitude of videos and pictures available to you if you only bothered to try. At this point you are either willingly ignoring facts for your beliefs and wants, or you are directly involved and attempting to spread slander.
see this asshole! these trash are going to end very soon
At this point I'm not sure if you think you're China's emperor or something, saying how "we can do this, we can do that". You're just the emperor of wild though, whatever that is. The insane egotism and superiority complex you exhibit is quite fascinating yet at the same time very sad to see. Your views(not sure childish or extremist at this point) are cause for concern for non-chinese people. If most people where you're from think this way, then the future of the world is not looking great, because believe me when I say, people will not just roll over and spread their buttcheeks if this kind of mentality would be forced upon them. Trading with evil China can be stopped. Yes, it will be shitty for everyone involved, but I doubt global ostricization of China is what China wants either. Go ahead and buy Volvo.
On November 11 2019 23:45 abuse wrote: Police openly shooting at protestors now.
dude you do not know a little bit about CPC . If they want use gunfire, the riots or you called protests wil be cleaned completely, one time for all. The truth is riots are attacking all Mainlanders including University students and a Japanese who is thought to be Mainlander.And they use gasoline and firelighter to burn a HK citizen having different opinions with their behavior. You call them freedom fighters ?
They want freedom, and they are fighting for it. I think that makes them, literally, freedom fighters.
how about ISIS? They fight for their "freedom"？with freedom in mouth they can do everything including this ? Today 7 railway lines are down .so How about the people want to take the railway to their job? how about their freedom?
I'm sorry people's fight for their human rights is slightly inconvenient for you
I am sorry ,today most HK people's little tiny hunman rights—right to take a train， is destroyed by your human rights fighters？ do they have human rights？ or only people have same opinion with you stupid ，know nothing and never be to HK or China, have the human rights?
Hold up. Let me check up on the human rights again.
Hmm, yes, that's what I thought. Nowhere does it state "Freedom of right to take a train". Freedom of opinion and expression is pretty high up on that list though.
On November 13 2019 17:44 emperorofwild wrote:
On November 13 2019 17:33 spacecoke wrote: I swear I will never buy or play a Blizzard game again.
Democracy matters.
We can buy Volvo, the whole car business. You people are not that clean, you also make trade with evil China.
What makes you think he has a Volvo..?
edit: Meh, the fact is that none of this matters. You are trying to argue that people getting shot by their police for protesting for human rights is somehow less important than some people not being able to take their train to work. The disconnect is mind boggling. You're also refusing to believe that it's happening despite a multitude of videos and pictures available to you if you only bothered to try. At this point you are either willingly ignoring facts for your beliefs and wants, or you are directly involved and attempting to spread slander.
see this asshole! these trash are going to end very soon
Do I want to know why you're on an English speaking site, linking to Chinese webpages with no predescription, expecting us to understand what's going on on them?
On November 13 2019 19:09 abuse wrote: At this point I'm not sure if you think you're China's emperor or something, saying how "we can do this, we can do that". You're just the emperor of wild though, whatever that is. The insane egotism and superiority complex you exhibit is quite fascinating yet at the same time very sad to see. Your views(not sure childish or extremist at this point) are cause for concern for non-chinese people. If most people where you're from think this way, then the future of the world is not looking great, because believe me when I say, people will not just roll over and spread their buttcheeks if this kind of mentality would be forced upon them. Trading with evil China can be stopped. Yes, it will be shitty for everyone involved, but I doubt global ostricization of China is what China wants either. Go ahead and buy Volvo.
This id has nothing to do with what you said .It is from a TV drama, a wild people looks exactly like TIME.so .. I also worry about worlds future. but it's Something you can only worry about and can not do a shit about IT. our conversation come to this maybe is partly because of my English level .I cannot make myself clear and its tiring for me. So just be it. You people and HK people do not have much connect with me
On November 13 2019 19:26 emperorofwild wrote: first one is completely English. Or just because it's a Chinese website its all faked? If you think so there is nothing I can say.
Literally never used the word fake. Take your straw man elsewhere please. I said there was no description, except for the one on the site itself, which is in Chinese. I have literally no idea what I'm watching or why I should be watching it. You just plumped down a link to a Chinese site and said, quote, "these trash are going to end very soon". It's not very insightful.
On November 13 2019 19:09 abuse wrote: At this point I'm not sure if you think you're China's emperor or something, saying how "we can do this, we can do that". You're just the emperor of wild though, whatever that is. The insane egotism and superiority complex you exhibit is quite fascinating yet at the same time very sad to see. Your views(not sure childish or extremist at this point) are cause for concern for non-chinese people. If most people where you're from think this way, then the future of the world is not looking great, because believe me when I say, people will not just roll over and spread their buttcheeks if this kind of mentality would be forced upon them. Trading with evil China can be stopped. Yes, it will be shitty for everyone involved, but I doubt global ostricization of China is what China wants either. Go ahead and buy Volvo.
You people and HK people do not have much connect with me
Not that I believe you for a second here, but let's pretend that I do: Why are you so vehemently against the people of HK if they have no connection with you? Do you hate the idea of people putting their lives on the line to fight for freedom that much? Just because its inconvenient for people taking trains or wanting to find restaurants?
I have to say, all this have been very enlightening. emperorofwild is a window into the hypernationalism that the Chinese Party pushes their people towards. When people ask why care about China and their ability to force self- censorship of blizzard, we can point to people like emperorofwild.
EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/3UJHFvU.png)
(the government one 
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Didn’t they teach you kids to respect the rules and laws in school? Without rules and laws, what would we have? That’s right, absolute CHAOS. I think it’s worth giving up some freedoms in exchange for peace and stability (and also money). I would gladly be China’s dog if I got another yacht (or several) out of it, I don’t care how short the leash is. I wouldn’t be just any dog, I’d be CAPTAIN dog, bitches *woof*![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EBypRXoXkAAVsWs?format=jpg&name=small)
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![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/RzUVCIm.jpg)
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