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On September 29 2018 01:44 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2018 01:34 Plansix wrote:On September 29 2018 01:21 JimmiC wrote:On September 29 2018 01:19 On_Slaught wrote:
Except you and I both know no interviews are going to happen, so this is an exercise in futility. McConnell has his man and that is all that matters in the end. All this other stuff, despite the real damage it is doing to peoples lives, is white noise to the Republican leadership. Yep and to the democratic leadership, one thing this process has made clear is no side truly cares about getting the right man for the job. They both care about how it affects their party politically. Please cite when they did this? You have said it many times, that the dems are using timing of these to do maximum political damage. Your justification is that the Reps have been doing it for years. I'm not arguing with you, I'm agreeing with you. I just think it is bad and you think it is good. Republicans have been playing dirty for 8 years. The Democrats have been playing (mostly) fair for those 8 years.
As a 'reward' for playing fair the Democrats lost every single branch of government. House, Senate, Presidency and the Supreme Court.
People are only willing to play fair and lose for so long when they opponents are blatantly ignoring the 'rules'.
On September 29 2018 03:22 chocorush wrote:
He could have requested the FBI investigation be done before a vote in committee. That would have been the principled thing to do. Instead, he deferred it to the full senate so that it would be somebody else's responsibility. This!
I don't understand the celebrations here for Flakes move. If he had actual principles he would have said he would vote No in the Committee unless there was an investigation first, not Yes despite not being ok with it in the hopes that maybe something might get done before a vote in the Senate.
His trying to cover his own ass from having to make a choice and is playing both sides.
Edit: And for what its worth, in my opinion even with a completely inconclusive FBI investigation I would never accept Kavanaugh as a SC judge based on his actions and lies since this whole affair started, regardless of the merits of the alligations. This man is not fit to be a Supreme Court judge.
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The American people all of a sudden getting their shit together and really ramping up the pressure. It's about time someone was able to get through to one of the power-at-all-costs-even-if-we-ruin-the-court Republicans.
"But on the way to the hearing, Flake was confronted by a woman who said she was a survivor of sexual assault and tearfully denounced his decision. “What you are doing is allowing someone who actually violated a woman to sit in the Supreme Court,” Ana Maria Archila screamed at Flake in an elevator."
https://www.thedailybeast.com/jeff-flake-votes-yes-on-kavanaughand-calls-in-the-fbi/
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On September 29 2018 03:32 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2018 03:27 Plansix wrote:On September 29 2018 03:19 JimmiC wrote:On September 29 2018 03:12 Plansix wrote:On September 29 2018 03:03 CorsairHero wrote:
Did the vote actually happen? Yes. The voted to recommend BK to the full senate, but Flake made it clear the vote would fail without an FBI investigation into the charges. But Flake could also Flake and vote yes because he has the spine of Flake. It is an unfortunate last name for sure. I'm sure Reps are calling him a "flake" for not just voting BK through. Going against your party in such a public way is brave. Smart? I guess we will see but lets not insult the guy for something he might do and instead be happy for what he did do. Flake has a history of making big, symbolic statements and then voting for the thing he was speaking out against. He did this in when it came to the healthcare bill and the tax bill. He complains about the process, but never backs it up with actions. People are naturally suspicious of his claim that he will vote no if this comes to a full floor vote because of his history. If he backtracks by all means crucify him, but until then support the move. It makes future moves more likely. If both sides crucify him do you think he or anyone else would take this risk again? I'm with thedave and I hope this actually happens and the truth, or at least the closest thing possible can be found. I suspect BK making himself out to be Mr virgin, never drunk, perfect guy will backfire during the investigations. Since all of that is easier to prove/disprove than the assaults. Why?
Why must the investigation be done before the senate vote and not before the committee vote? Don't vote yes if your not ok with him, make a damn stand if you have objections that must be met. That's why your on the committee, if your going to rubber stamp everything what are you doing there?
Instead he weasels out of responsibility and will spend the weekend praying to god he doesn't actually have to make a choice by it getting to a Senate vote.
Its the same shit as the ACA repeals. A bunch of Republicans that know they are voting to destroy people but they are to cowardly to say No, while praying for someone else (McCain) to do it for them.
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Gorsameth I really got to ask. Is your opinion that the Republicans are so evil that the Democrats should copy them in everything they do?
I don't understand how you arrive at the point where the Republicans are the model party that should be emulated in America when you clearly don't like what the republican party does.
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On September 29 2018 03:32 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2018 03:27 Plansix wrote:On September 29 2018 03:19 JimmiC wrote:On September 29 2018 03:12 Plansix wrote:On September 29 2018 03:03 CorsairHero wrote:
Did the vote actually happen? Yes. The voted to recommend BK to the full senate, but Flake made it clear the vote would fail without an FBI investigation into the charges. But Flake could also Flake and vote yes because he has the spine of Flake. It is an unfortunate last name for sure. I'm sure Reps are calling him a "flake" for not just voting BK through. Going against your party in such a public way is brave. Smart? I guess we will see but lets not insult the guy for something he might do and instead be happy for what he did do. Flake has a history of making big, symbolic statements and then voting for the thing he was speaking out against. He did this in when it came to the healthcare bill and the tax bill. He complains about the process, but never backs it up with actions. People are naturally suspicious of his claim that he will vote no if this comes to a full floor vote because of his history. If he backtracks by all means crucify him, but until then support the move. It makes future moves more likely. If both sides crucify him do you think he or anyone else would take this risk again? I'm with thedave and I hope this actually happens and the truth, or at least the closest thing possible can be found. I suspect BK making himself out to be Mr virgin, never drunk, perfect guy will backfire during the investigations. Since all of that is easier to prove/disprove than the assaults.
Flake is retiring. He won’t be in the senate after January, 2019.
Also, you are talking to the guy who said all the things you are saying now 15-20 years ago. I was the Good Faith, Trust the Process guy Champion of the golden mean. I’ve been burned to many times by believing these folks to take them at their word. If they don’t back it up with consistency, I don’t trust them.
On September 29 2018 03:40 Sermokala wrote:
Gorsameth I really got to ask. Is your opinion that the Republicans are so evil that the Democrats should copy them in everything they do?
I don't understand how you arrive at the point where the Republicans are the model party that should be emulated in America when you clearly don't like what the republican party does.
It’s the Mustard gas theory. Both sides need to use it on each other before everyone agrees its terrible and never uses it again. We gotta break all the rules so then everyone realizes why we followed them in the first place. Then make new rules.
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On September 29 2018 03:27 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2018 03:19 JimmiC wrote:On September 29 2018 03:12 Plansix wrote:On September 29 2018 03:03 CorsairHero wrote:
Did the vote actually happen? Yes. The voted to recommend BK to the full senate, but Flake made it clear the vote would fail without an FBI investigation into the charges. But Flake could also Flake and vote yes because he has the spine of Flake. It is an unfortunate last name for sure. I'm sure Reps are calling him a "flake" for not just voting BK through. Going against your party in such a public way is brave. Smart? I guess we will see but lets not insult the guy for something he might do and instead be happy for what he did do. Flake has a history of making big, symbolic statements and then voting for the thing he was speaking out against. He did this in when it came to the healthcare bill and the tax bill. He complains about the process, but never backs it up with actions. People are naturally suspicious of his claim that he will vote no if this comes to a full floor vote because of his history. Show nested quote +On September 29 2018 03:22 chocorush wrote:
He could have requested the FBI investigation be done before a vote in committee. That would have been the principled thing to do. Instead, he deferred it to the full senate so that it would be somebody else's responsibility. To be fair, the head of the committee would need to ask the White House to start an investigation. Grassley is a poopy old man that wants to vote and refused to delay anything. So since Grassley would never agree to it, he threw it in front of the party leadership. I think it might be a better plan because the two people that are looking for an investigation are Collins and Murkowski, the known swing votes in the Senate.
If Grassley doesn't agree to it, vote No. This was the last time Flake would have the power to do anything meaningful as the single most important vote on committee. He chose to defer it to the senate because he didn't want that responsibility. If you really cared about integrity, you don't pass a nominee through committee that you are admitting has not been sufficiently investigated.
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On September 29 2018 03:40 Sermokala wrote:
Gorsameth I really got to ask. Is your opinion that the Republicans are so evil that the Democrats should copy them in everything they do?
I don't understand how you arrive at the point where the Republicans are the model party that should be emulated in America when you clearly don't like what the republican party does. I would prefer it if the Democrats didn't play dirty and won by being the 'better man' so to say.
But I understand they get fed up with it and play dirty aswell when the voters seem to not care about how dirty you play.
The election of Trump highlighted this clearly imo.
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there is no celebrating Flakes move, he hasn’t done anything yet. he made a big statement and we have absolutely no cause to believe it means anything. he voted yes to get him out of committee. that’s nothing to celebrate. he has lied in his statements about his voting intentions on multiple large occasions in the very recent past.
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On September 29 2018 03:45 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2018 03:37 Gorsameth wrote:On September 29 2018 03:32 JimmiC wrote:On September 29 2018 03:27 Plansix wrote:On September 29 2018 03:19 JimmiC wrote:On September 29 2018 03:12 Plansix wrote:On September 29 2018 03:03 CorsairHero wrote:
Did the vote actually happen? Yes. The voted to recommend BK to the full senate, but Flake made it clear the vote would fail without an FBI investigation into the charges. But Flake could also Flake and vote yes because he has the spine of Flake. It is an unfortunate last name for sure. I'm sure Reps are calling him a "flake" for not just voting BK through. Going against your party in such a public way is brave. Smart? I guess we will see but lets not insult the guy for something he might do and instead be happy for what he did do. Flake has a history of making big, symbolic statements and then voting for the thing he was speaking out against. He did this in when it came to the healthcare bill and the tax bill. He complains about the process, but never backs it up with actions. People are naturally suspicious of his claim that he will vote no if this comes to a full floor vote because of his history. If he backtracks by all means crucify him, but until then support the move. It makes future moves more likely. If both sides crucify him do you think he or anyone else would take this risk again? I'm with thedave and I hope this actually happens and the truth, or at least the closest thing possible can be found. I suspect BK making himself out to be Mr virgin, never drunk, perfect guy will backfire during the investigations. Since all of that is easier to prove/disprove than the assaults. Why? Why must the investigation be done before the senate vote and not before the committee vote? Don't vote yes if your not ok with him, make a damn stand if you have objections that must be met. That's why your on the committee, if your going to rubber stamp everything what are you doing there? Instead he weasels out of responsibility and will spend the weekend praying to god he doesn't actually have to make a choice by it getting to a Senate vote. Its the same shit as the ACA repeals. A bunch of Republicans that know they are voting to destroy people but they are to cowardly to say No, while praying for someone else (McCain) to do it for them. That is a extremely glass half empty look at things. It could be true, but at least consider that it might not be true. I'm hoping for a "smoking gun" to be found, even if that gun proves that BK didn't do any of this. I hope that is what everyone is after. But I feel like many people regardless of their "side" are hoping it ends up in their favor more than finding the truth. I agree, but why must we look for the smoking gun after he has left the committee but before the senate vote? Why can't we look before he leaves the committee?
The answer is because Flake doesn't want to take responsibility. And if your not willing to take responsibility you should not be in a committee.
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On September 29 2018 03:54 brian wrote:
there is no celebrating Flakes move, he hasn’t done anything yet. he made a big statement and we have absolutely no cause to believe it means anything. he voted yes to get him out of committee. that’s nothing to celebrate. he has lied in his statements about his voting intentions on multiple large occasions in the very recent past.
Murkowski just came out and said she supports the call for a delay. Regardless of whether Flake is being honest, the Republican leadership is on notice from the ladies who have shown a willingness to vote against their party in the past. McConnell has to take this seriously or likely lose on the floor. Flake similarly gave cover to Manchin.
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On September 29 2018 03:48 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2018 03:43 Plansix wrote:On September 29 2018 03:32 JimmiC wrote:On September 29 2018 03:27 Plansix wrote:On September 29 2018 03:19 JimmiC wrote:On September 29 2018 03:12 Plansix wrote:On September 29 2018 03:03 CorsairHero wrote:
Did the vote actually happen? Yes. The voted to recommend BK to the full senate, but Flake made it clear the vote would fail without an FBI investigation into the charges. But Flake could also Flake and vote yes because he has the spine of Flake. It is an unfortunate last name for sure. I'm sure Reps are calling him a "flake" for not just voting BK through. Going against your party in such a public way is brave. Smart? I guess we will see but lets not insult the guy for something he might do and instead be happy for what he did do. Flake has a history of making big, symbolic statements and then voting for the thing he was speaking out against. He did this in when it came to the healthcare bill and the tax bill. He complains about the process, but never backs it up with actions. People are naturally suspicious of his claim that he will vote no if this comes to a full floor vote because of his history. If he backtracks by all means crucify him, but until then support the move. It makes future moves more likely. If both sides crucify him do you think he or anyone else would take this risk again? I'm with thedave and I hope this actually happens and the truth, or at least the closest thing possible can be found. I suspect BK making himself out to be Mr virgin, never drunk, perfect guy will backfire during the investigations. Since all of that is easier to prove/disprove than the assaults. Flake is retiring. He won’t be in the senate after January, 2019. Also, you are talking to the guy who said all the things you are saying now 15-20 years ago. I was the Good Faith, Trust the Process guy Champion of the golden mean. I’ve been burned to many times by believing these folks to take them at their word. If they don’t back it up with consistency, I don’t trust them. That is fair, I have been burned more then once. And I too am far jaded than I would like to be. Heck I've got heated and said shitty things on these boards. But I try to look for the bright side. And in this after this whole circus of crazy it looks like (fingers crossed) the sensible thing of a investigation will happen. So for now I'm hanging my hat on that. In a week (hell by Monday) I could be singing a different tune. What is the point of victories if you can't enjoy them and to me that some (theoretically) impartial department is going to investigate the claims is a victory. To others it may only be a victory if he is or isn't appointed. And I get that too.
I am a pretty optimistic person about politics and the direction of this country in the long term. But when it comes to the state of congress and politics, I’ve realized that some people just need to be beaten until they no longer have political power. Like Mitch McConnell. So long as he is leader of the senate Republicans, they cannot be trusted. Flake included. Until he is gone, there is no reason to take these folks at their word.
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On September 29 2018 03:43 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2018 03:32 JimmiC wrote:On September 29 2018 03:27 Plansix wrote:On September 29 2018 03:19 JimmiC wrote:On September 29 2018 03:12 Plansix wrote:On September 29 2018 03:03 CorsairHero wrote:
Did the vote actually happen? Yes. The voted to recommend BK to the full senate, but Flake made it clear the vote would fail without an FBI investigation into the charges. But Flake could also Flake and vote yes because he has the spine of Flake. It is an unfortunate last name for sure. I'm sure Reps are calling him a "flake" for not just voting BK through. Going against your party in such a public way is brave. Smart? I guess we will see but lets not insult the guy for something he might do and instead be happy for what he did do. Flake has a history of making big, symbolic statements and then voting for the thing he was speaking out against. He did this in when it came to the healthcare bill and the tax bill. He complains about the process, but never backs it up with actions. People are naturally suspicious of his claim that he will vote no if this comes to a full floor vote because of his history. If he backtracks by all means crucify him, but until then support the move. It makes future moves more likely. If both sides crucify him do you think he or anyone else would take this risk again? I'm with thedave and I hope this actually happens and the truth, or at least the closest thing possible can be found. I suspect BK making himself out to be Mr virgin, never drunk, perfect guy will backfire during the investigations. Since all of that is easier to prove/disprove than the assaults. Flake is retiring. He won’t be in the senate after January, 2019. Also, you are talking to the guy who said all the things you are saying now 15-20 years ago. I was the Good Faith, Trust the Process guy Champion of the golden mean. I’ve been burned to many times by believing these folks to take them at their word. If they don’t back it up with consistency, I don’t trust them. Show nested quote +On September 29 2018 03:40 Sermokala wrote:
Gorsameth I really got to ask. Is your opinion that the Republicans are so evil that the Democrats should copy them in everything they do?
I don't understand how you arrive at the point where the Republicans are the model party that should be emulated in America when you clearly don't like what the republican party does. It’s the Mustard gas theory. Both sides need to use it on each other before everyone agrees its terrible and never uses it again. We gotta break all the rules so then everyone realizes why we followed them in the first place. Then make new rules.
Except that one critical element here is missing for the mustard gas theory to go anywhere: in politics shit happens sequentially rather than in parallel: while the democrats are being mustard gased, they don't have the power to toss their own mustard gas bombs, and vice versa. Thus, there is no incentive for the party in power to change it *right now*. There's an incentive to change it "just in case the other guys get the opportunity to do it next", but that's a problem for the future, and politicians *never* deal with problems of the future.
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Can someone remind me why it is essential a vote takes place this month? Or even 2 weeks from now? So long as the vote can occur before midterms, I don't see why else republicans would need it ASAP. What is time sensitive besides just midterms and potentially losing the senate?
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On September 29 2018 04:15 Mohdoo wrote:
Can someone remind me why it is essential a vote takes place this month? Or even 2 weeks from now? So long as the vote can occur before midterms, I don't see why else republicans would need it ASAP. What is time sensitive besides just midterms and potentially losing the senate?
More information coming out? It being used as campaign fodder? The earlier it happens the less impact it will have on the midterms.
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On September 29 2018 03:26 iamthedave wrote:
Though given he's literally lied under oath in an attempt to defend himself, I'd have thought that alone ought to disqualify him, if ranting about Democrat conspiracy isn't enough. I mean, I have no faith at all that the man who spoke the way he did yesterday will be non-partial in his rulings as a Supreme Court justice.
This bothered me perhaps the most of all. I can deal with them not finding anything in the investigation into Ford, at this point I'm expecting it, but is a guy like that seriously mentally fit for the SC? Seriously? How disappointing.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/po2ZvGu.png)
